SOME MUSINGS ON AMERICA ON THE 4th OF JULY, WHERE HAS INDEPENDENCE GONE? Options

[tazvil04]

Livyjr..you admit to having a great deal of respect for JFK...

What was it that accounted for that do you think?

Was it his image...his policy proposals...or his speechifying?

His oration...his communicating aspirational goals and ideas...regarding who we are and who we can be...in short his idealism...and how he communicated that with the reality of the day as more than just a possibility to strive for...but as a truly achieveable goal...

I think you can tell where I am going with this...

Now, Barack Obama is no JFK...

I am not suggesting that...but because JFK was saddled with a difficult Congress...and did not have too many accomplishments legislatively before he passed from this Earth...much of his success was in his ability to communicate...his ability to inspite...whether when he was speaking to an American or a foreign audience...

And these are similar qualities to those possessed by Barack Obama...

Though Obama may actually have a lot more domestic success in advancing his legislatvie agenda...

Thus, as with Kennedy -- the words matter...and people remember JFK as a good - some would even say a great president...not because of the platform he ran on in 1960...not because of his appointments...or his policies...but because of his words...which last...his clarion calls for service...his ability to communicate the good that the nation can achieve and the shared sacrifice and difficulty it will take....but that the journey will be worth it...

In a sense, when you denigrate Obama for his oratory you are denigrating Kennedy...because the gift that JFK was in large part was his eloquence...his ability to communicate...

[tazvil04]

More than 30 years after Johnson sounded his battle cry against poverty, the exact results and larger meaning of the War on Poverty remain disputed.

And here we have COMMON GROUND, as well, tazvil04 ....

And so ...

I was very high on Kennedy but never liked Johnson personally...I was generally supportive of his domestic programs and strongly against the Viet Nam War. The War on Poverty was badly mis-named...over-all it was moderately successfull, though poorly managed. It prevented conditions from getting worse and was positively
transformative for many individuals, like my self... I moved from poverty to a middle class College Professor...

And yet there will be a hue and cry from those who have been brainwashed that that is not desirable. You will hear from those whose own fathers and mothers likely benefited from FDR's socially progressive programs or who themselves did through such socialistic institutions like Public Education, or Infrastructure Programs, or the Minimum Wage, or the 40 Hour work week. Overtime Pay or Workplace Safety and other Labor Laws and yet cry that all that is "Un- American" somehow especially if it benefits someone else besides them.

You'll hear from self-proclaimed fictional characters right out of a Horatio Alger or Ayn Rand novel telling you they pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps with no help from anybody else and no use somehow of the above mentioned Public Commons! Why, you'll wonder why you never heard of these Titans who now vote against any help for anybody else touting their own lives as examples of manly independence from the rest of humanity and implying there is something wrong with anyone who believes otherwise, and never mentioning such people are most often fictional. Yes there are real rags to riches stories but none of them lived in the societal vacuum that the brainwashed somehow believes exists but exists only in some author's mind.

Lest you think such people are few and far between look again at the influence such fantasy dwelling characters have had on all our lives. Who? Well Greenspan is just the first to pop into my mind. His Magical Mystery Tour of "Atlas Shrugged" leads directly here based on his own delusions and those who did not blow holes when they should have in his fantasy life.

Fortunately for those who benefited and yet seek to pull the ladder up after them with more lies and votes against the common good need not worry too much that the cat is out of the bag. These sorts are still backed by an entire Political Party suitable for voting for, and those who give them any credence either through abject ignorance or abject greed are busy re-writing history so few if any catch on.

Because of what I was taught by what I actually saw from my own Parent's experience and their whole Generation, it gives the lie and will always give the lie to what blatherings I hear now from the above mentioned self-deluded "Illuminate". Therefore I will never listen to a word they say. If they say the Sun Rises in the East I will stop and check before accepting it from their mouths and when I hear their rants against Obama and their made-up Nightmares of "Black" Helicopters and people coming to take them or their rights away, I will know it for the projection it is when they themselves voted for someone who actually tried to create such a fearful nation while waving the flag in my face.

Just some rambling thoughts.

Some random, yet poignant and relevant thoughts...thank you for sharing...

[TheRestofUs]

Livyjr..you admit to having a great deal of respect for JFK...

What was it that accounted for that do you think?

Was it his image...his policy proposals...or his speechifying?

His oration...his communicating aspirational goals and ideas...regarding who we are and who we can be...in short his idealism...and how he communicated that with the reality of the day as more than just a possibility to strive for...but as a truly achieveable goal...

I think you can tell where I am going with this...

Now, Barack Obama is no JFK...

I am not suggesting that...but because JFK was saddled with a difficult Congress...and did not have too many accomplishments legislatively before he passed from this Earth...much of his success was in his ability to communicate...his ability to inspite...whether when he was speaking to an American or a foreign audience...

And these are similar qualities to those possessed by Barack Obama...

Though Obama may actually have a lot more domestic success in advancing his legislatvie agenda...

Thus, as with Kennedy -- the words matter...and people remember JFK as a good - some would even say a great president...not because of the platform he ran on in 1960...not because of his appointments...or his policies...but because of his words...which last...his clarion calls for service...his ability to communicate the good that the nation can achieve and the shared sacrifice and difficulty it will take....but that the journey will be worth it...

In a sense, when you denigrate Obama for his oratory you are denigrating Kennedy...because the gift that JFK was in large part was his eloquence...his ability to communicate...

Here! Here! He communicated the inspirational ideals that should come from the "Good Father". It awakens the "Inner Kings" within young men. Obama is doing the same and his wife is doing the same for young women. It is a healing balm and vivifying elixir sorely needed by this nation.

This post has been edited by TheRestofUs: Jul 9 2009, 09:30 AM

[rla]

Livyjr..you admit to having a great deal of respect for JFK...

What was it that accounted for that do you think?

Was it his image...his policy proposals...or his speechifying?

His oration...his communicating aspirational goals and ideas...regarding who we are and who we can be...in short his idealism...and how he communicated that with the reality of the day as more than just a possibility to strive for...but as a truly achieveable goal...

I think you can tell where I am going with this...

Now, Barack Obama is no JFK...

I am not suggesting that...but because JFK was saddled with a difficult Congress...and did not have too many accomplishments legislatively before he passed from this Earth...much of his success was in his ability to communicate...his ability to inspite...whether when he was speaking to an American or a foreign audience...

And these are similar qualities to those possessed by Barack Obama...

Though Obama may actually have a lot more domestic success in advancing his legislatvie agenda...

Thus, as with Kennedy -- the words matter...and people remember JFK as a good - some would even say a great president...not because of the platform he ran on in 1960...not because of his appointments...or his policies...but because of his words...which last...his clarion calls for service...his ability to communicate the good that the nation can achieve and the shared sacrifice and difficulty it will take....but that the journey will be worth it...

In a sense, when you denigrate Obama for his oratory you are denigrating Kennedy...because the gift that JFK was in large part was his eloquence...his ability to communicate...

Here! Here! He communicated the inspirational ideals that should come from the "Good Father". It awakens the "Inner Kings" within young men. Obama is doing the same and his wife is doing the same for young women. It is a healing balm and vivifying elixir sorely needed by this nation.

JFK was on the cutting edge of what was known up to his present and was able to extrapolate from that into the future. He was a liberal (liberated from traditional sources of authority and committed to the common good) and
looking for a home--realizing that he would have to create one, if there was to be one. Robert Kennedy knew him better than he knew himself.

As persons, I agree that JFK and Barack Obama are a lot alike--both extraordinarily strong in Empathy and Respect
with the third leg of interpersonal maturity--Genuinness-- somewhat less developed...

It is too early to tell what the Obama presidency will be like...

[tazvil04]

Livyjr..you admit to having a great deal of respect for JFK...

What was it that accounted for that do you think?

Was it his image...his policy proposals...or his speechifying?

His oration...his communicating aspirational goals and ideas...regarding who we are and who we can be...in short his idealism...and how he communicated that with the reality of the day as more than just a possibility to strive for...but as a truly achieveable goal...

I think you can tell where I am going with this...

Now, Barack Obama is no JFK...

I am not suggesting that...but because JFK was saddled with a difficult Congress...and did not have too many accomplishments legislatively before he passed from this Earth...much of his success was in his ability to communicate...his ability to inspite...whether when he was speaking to an American or a foreign audience...

And these are similar qualities to those possessed by Barack Obama...

Though Obama may actually have a lot more domestic success in advancing his legislatvie agenda...

Thus, as with Kennedy -- the words matter...and people remember JFK as a good - some would even say a great president...not because of the platform he ran on in 1960...not because of his appointments...or his policies...but because of his words...which last...his clarion calls for service...his ability to communicate the good that the nation can achieve and the shared sacrifice and difficulty it will take....but that the journey will be worth it...

In a sense, when you denigrate Obama for his oratory you are denigrating Kennedy...because the gift that JFK was in large part was his eloquence...his ability to communicate...

Here! Here! He communicated the inspirational ideals that should come from the "Good Father". It awakens the "Inner Kings" within young men. Obama is doing the same and his wife is doing the same for young women. It is a healing balm and vivifying elixir sorely needed by this nation.

JFK was on the cutting edge of what was known up to his present and was able to extrapolate from that into the future. He was a liberal (liberated from traditional sources of authority and committed to the common good) and
looking for a home--realizing that he would have to create one, if there was to be one. Robert Kennedy knew him better than he knew himself.

As persons, I agree that JFK and Barack Obama are a lot alike--both extraordinarily strong in Empathy and Respect
with the third leg of interpersonal maturity--Genuinness-- somewhat less developed...

It is too early to tell what the Obama presidency will be like...

I would definitely agree that it is far to early to tell what his presidency will be like and I would even suggest to begin "judging" his presidency a success or a failure as many are prone to do....is premature

This is not to say that one cannot offer comments on his proposals...but no one knows what success they will or will not have...at this point...

This post has been edited by tazvil04: Jul 9 2009, 10:03 AM

[tazvil04]

Livyjr..you admit to having a great deal of respect for JFK...

What was it that accounted for that do you think?

Was it his image...his policy proposals...or his speechifying?

His oration...his communicating aspirational goals and ideas...regarding who we are and who we can be...in short his idealism...and how he communicated that with the reality of the day as more than just a possibility to strive for...but as a truly achieveable goal...

I think you can tell where I am going with this...

Now, Barack Obama is no JFK...

I am not suggesting that...but because JFK was saddled with a difficult Congress...and did not have too many accomplishments legislatively before he passed from this Earth...much of his success was in his ability to communicate...his ability to inspite...whether when he was speaking to an American or a foreign audience...

And these are similar qualities to those possessed by Barack Obama...

Though Obama may actually have a lot more domestic success in advancing his legislatvie agenda...

Thus, as with Kennedy -- the words matter...and people remember JFK as a good - some would even say a great president...not because of the platform he ran on in 1960...not because of his appointments...or his policies...but because of his words...which last...his clarion calls for service...his ability to communicate the good that the nation can achieve and the shared sacrifice and difficulty it will take....but that the journey will be worth it...

In a sense, when you denigrate Obama for his oratory you are denigrating Kennedy...because the gift that JFK was in large part was his eloquence...his ability to communicate...

Here! Here! He communicated the inspirational ideals that should come from the "Good Father". It awakens the "Inner Kings" within young men. Obama is doing the same and his wife is doing the same for young women. It is a healing balm and vivifying elixir sorely needed by this nation.

Absolutely...

Reading Ted Sorensen's latest book -- Counsellor...brought tears to my eyes when I thought what might have been...

I have asked Kennedy supporters and opponents to prove his contention that JFK never lied to the American people wrong if they can...

I think that is a great statement...

I have no doubt that he lied to his wife, his family, his friends and other politicians one on one...but I can not recall one lie that he ever told the American people...

[rla]

Livyjr..you admit to having a great deal of respect for JFK...

What was it that accounted for that do you think?

Was it his image...his policy proposals...or his speechifying?

His oration...his communicating aspirational goals and ideas...regarding who we are and who we can be...in short his idealism...and how he communicated that with the reality of the day as more than just a possibility to strive for...but as a truly achieveable goal...

I think you can tell where I am going with this...

Now, Barack Obama is no JFK...

I am not suggesting that...but because JFK was saddled with a difficult Congress...and did not have too many accomplishments legislatively before he passed from this Earth...much of his success was in his ability to communicate...his ability to inspite...whether when he was speaking to an American or a foreign audience...

And these are similar qualities to those possessed by Barack Obama...

Though Obama may actually have a lot more domestic success in advancing his legislatvie agenda...

Thus, as with Kennedy -- the words matter...and people remember JFK as a good - some would even say a great president...not because of the platform he ran on in 1960...not because of his appointments...or his policies...but because of his words...which last...his clarion calls for service...his ability to communicate the good that the nation can achieve and the shared sacrifice and difficulty it will take....but that the journey will be worth it...

In a sense, when you denigrate Obama for his oratory you are denigrating Kennedy...because the gift that JFK was in large part was his eloquence...his ability to communicate...

Here! Here! He communicated the inspirational ideals that should come from the "Good Father". It awakens the "Inner Kings" within young men. Obama is doing the same and his wife is doing the same for young women. It is a healing balm and vivifying elixir sorely needed by this nation.

JFK was on the cutting edge of what was known up to his present and was able to extrapolate from that into the future. He was a liberal (liberated from traditional sources of authority and committed to the common good) and
looking for a home--realizing that he would have to create one, if there was to be one. Robert Kennedy knew him better than he knew himself.

As persons, I agree that JFK and Barack Obama are a lot alike--both extraordinarily strong in Empathy and Respect
with the third leg of interpersonal maturity--Genuinness-- somewhat less developed...

It is too early to tell what the Obama presidency will be like...

I would definitely agree that it is far to early to tell what his presidency will be like and I would even suggest to begin "judging" his presidency a success or a failure as many are prone to do....is premature

This is not to say that one cannot offer comments on his proposals...but no one knows what success they will or will not have...at this point...

Surprise, surprise--common ground...

[tazvil04]

rla -- I believe we have a lot more in common than we have not in common...

We just choose on this site often to dwell in our matters of disagreement...but in that effort I am always trying to persuade

to try and find common ground...

[rla]

rla -- I believe we have a lot more in common than we have not in common...

We just choose on this site often to dwell in our matters of disagreement...but in that effort I am always trying to persuade

to try and find common ground...

Of course...the two most disparit huminoids are 95% alike...

[Livyjr]

we don't know yet if it is or isn't legal.

Sure we do, graham ...

We know that it is UNCONSTITUTIONAL in New York State for David Paterson to appoint a lieutenant governor ....

"HOW DO WE KNOW THAT, Livyjr," says graham ....

And Livyjr responds that we consult the New York State Constitution, which states as follows:

[Duties and compensation of lieutenant-governor; succession to the governorship]

§6. The lieutenant-governor shall possess the same qualifications of eligibility for office as the governor.

The lieutenant-governor shall be the president of the senate but shall have only a casting vote therein.

The lieutenant- governor shall receive for his or her services an annual salary to be fixed by joint resolution of the senate and assembly.

In case of vacancy in the offices of both governor and lieutenant- governor, a governor and lieutenant-governor shall be elected for the remainder of the term at the next general election happening not less than three months after both offices shall have become vacant.

No election of a lieutenant-governor shall be had in any event except at the time of electing a governor.

In case of vacancy in the offices of both governor and lieutenant- governor or if both of them shall be impeached, absent from the state or otherwise unable to discharge the powers and duties of the office of governor, the temporary president of the senate shall act as governor until the inability shall cease or until a governor shall be elected.

In case of vacancy in the office of lieutenant-governor alone, or if the lieutenant-governor shall be impeached, absent from the state or otherwise unable to discharge the duties of office, the temporary president of the senate shall perform all the duties of lieutenant-governor during such vacancy or inability.

If, when the duty of acting as governor devolves upon the temporary president of the senate, there be a vacancy in such office or the temporary president of the senate shall be absent from the state or otherwise unable to discharge the duties of governor, the speaker of the assembly shall act as governor during such vacancy or inability.

The legislature may provide for the devolution of the duty of acting as governor in any case not provided for in this article.

(Formerly §§7 and 8. Renumbered and amended by Constitutional Convention of 1938 and approved by vote of the people November 8, 1938; further amended by vote of the people November 6, 1945; November 3, 1953; November 5, 1963; November 6, 2001.)

http://www.dos.state.ny.us/info/constitution.htm

[Livyjr]

In case of vacancy in the office of lieutenant-governor alone, or if the lieutenant-governor shall be impeached, absent from the state or otherwise unable to discharge the duties of office, the temporary president of the senate shall perform all the duties of lieutenant-governor during such vacancy or inability.

http://www.dos.state.ny.us/info/constitution.htm

Do you see that, graham?

That is directly from section 6 of ARTICLE IV of the New York State Constitution, said Article entitled "Executive" ...

David Paterson, who as you say is blind, and as a consequence, can't see those words, just appointed someone to a position OUR NYS Constitution gives to the temporary president of the senate .....

HE IS OVER THE LINE, graham ....

And the mess in New York State lies directly at the feet of the democrats ....

David Paterson is the head of the democrats in New York State .....

We would be better off with a pack of apes or gibbons or orangutans in New York State government instead of these worthless, incompetent democrats ...

A troop of baboons govern themselves better than the democrats in the New York State Senate ...

And so ...

[Livyjr]

David Paterson must think that he is in Honduras, trying to pull his coup up here ....

And so ...

[Livyjr]

Having an untroubled, "soul" and having self-reliance is redundant...

I'm an engineer, rla ...

We are always designing in redundance ....

Safety factors, don't you know ....

And so ...

[Livyjr]

Barack Obama's Daddy's tribe allowed him to go to Harvard...it'll be a hundred more years before we know what the outcome of that was...

And George W. Bush's DADDY got the boy into the very same Harvard that Obama went to ...

And we don't need to wait no one hundred years to find out the results of that ....

Harvard produced an IMBECILE who destroyed OUR country ....

And now, there's another Harvard graduate in there to take it the rest of the way down ....

And so ...

[Livyjr]

Sound like someone you know?

Yes, TROU ....

It sounds just like you ....

And so ...

[Livyjr]

If they say the Sun Rises in the East I will stop and check before accepting it from their mouths and when I hear their rants against Obama and their made-up Nightmares of "Black" Helicopters and people coming to take them or their rights away, I will know it for the projection it is when they themselves voted for someone who actually tried to create such a fearful nation while waving the flag in my face.

graham ....

Is he talking about you here?

With the "black helicopters", I mean ....

Wasn't that one of your theories?

Or was it Magmak1?

And so ...

[Livyjr]

Now, Barack Obama is no JFK...

We have COMMON GROUND here, tazvil04 ....

And I never had the impression that JFK was a BULL******* when he spoke ....

While much or most of what I hear out of Obama sounds like nothing but a lot of BULL**** ....

And so ...

[rla]

Having an untroubled, "soul" and having self-reliance is redundant...

I'm an engineer, rla ...

We are always designing in redundance ....

Safety factors, don't you know ....

And so ...

That sounds like a reasonable rationale, Livyjr.

[Livyjr]

It is if you are an engineer charged with protecting and safeguarding human life, health and property ....

And so ...

[rla]

Livyjr..you admit to having a great deal of respect for JFK...

What was it that accounted for that do you think?

Was it his image...his policy proposals...or his speechifying?

His oration...his communicating aspirational goals and ideas...regarding who we are and who we can be...in short his idealism...and how he communicated that with the reality of the day as more than just a possibility to strive for...but as a truly achieveable goal...

I think you can tell where I am going with this...

Now, Barack Obama is no JFK...

I am not suggesting that...but because JFK was saddled with a difficult Congress...and did not have too many accomplishments legislatively before he passed from this Earth...much of his success was in his ability to communicate...his ability to inspite...whether when he was speaking to an American or a foreign audience...

And these are similar qualities to those possessed by Barack Obama...

Though Obama may actually have a lot more domestic success in advancing his legislatvie agenda...

Thus, as with Kennedy -- the words matter...and people remember JFK as a good - some would even say a great president...not because of the platform he ran on in 1960...not because of his appointments...or his policies...but because of his words...which last...his clarion calls for service...his ability to communicate the good that the nation can achieve and the shared sacrifice and difficulty it will take....but that the journey will be worth it...

In a sense, when you denigrate Obama for his oratory you are denigrating Kennedy...because the gift that JFK was in large part was his eloquence...his ability to communicate...

Here! Here! He communicated the inspirational ideals that should come from the "Good Father". It awakens the "Inner Kings" within young men. Obama is doing the same and his wife is doing the same for young women. It is a healing balm and vivifying elixir sorely needed by this nation.

JFK was on the cutting edge of what was known up to his present and was able to extrapolate from that into the future. He was a liberal (liberated from traditional sources of authority and committed to the common good) and
looking for a home--realizing that he would have to create one, if there was to be one. Robert Kennedy knew him better than he knew himself.

As persons, I agree that JFK and Barack Obama are a lot alike--both extraordinarily strong in Empathy and Respect
with the third leg of interpersonal maturity--Genuinness-- somewhat less developed...

It is too early to tell what the Obama presidency will be like...

I'm a Scientist and I'm trying to withhold judgement until the data is in...