With Nite Owl's Permission, I am starting a new thread with his recent post. Options

[TheRestofUs]

Nite Owl. If I don't have your permission I ask that the Mods delete this thread. But I've never seen such a well stated post about the CRUX of the problem in our politics today between the two Parties.


Nite Owl's excellent post...


Bross.... I'm not going to enter into the debate... but just want to add some perspective that may be missing...

First.... I'm a liberal in many respects and a moderate in many as well.

As I mentioned somewhere in the last day to two... the issue of condescending liberals ignores a few very basic issues.

The conservatives empowered the Republican Party which controlled government for the vast majority of the past three decades. The Republican Party sold out to the highest bidder when it came to legislation and enacted legislation which has been detrimental to the American economy. They sold out the working class through implementations of NAFTA and CAFTA. They fight against unions, minimum wage increase, and much anything else that represents the working class. They allowed, in fact worked toward, developing a Business/GOP alliance with the express intent of eliminating Democtrat control and actively sought to destroy Democrats and their ability to compete for seats and silence any ideas. They never worked on a bipartisan or non-partisan basis and have failed to act in good faith in nearly any respect, instead choosing to unify to a degree that they crucify their own for disloyalty. They sold out the working class.... conservatives and liberals alike.... yet, no matter what, the conservatives continued to support them. They jumped on board to crucify Clinton... to the extent of dragging the country down to do it. This over a lie while all the faults, lies and even a unwarranted, unjustified, and largely illegal war was perpetrated by Bush with their full support.

Then they simply expect no ridicule for their continued support. They disregard logic. They can never admit that their decisions were wrong... not even close. They cannot, or will not make the connection that they were largely responsible for enabling the Party that corrupted the system to a degree never seen before.

They supported the Party and policies that have led us to where we are... a complete disaster... into an abyss. They field a ticket with someone like Palin, who aside being grossly unqualified, is lacking in basic fundamental knowledge and understanding of government and current events, and expect others to take them seriously.

They make these decision and wonder why others look at their judgment with question. Their lack of judgement, or blind support of ideology, strains any ounce of credibility that they can muster imho,


BUT... It might be different if they ever said that they were wrong. If they ever said that their support of a Party that lied to even themselves deserves blame. If they ever said that the voodoo economics of Reagan began a downward spiral of the standard of living. If they ever said that deregulation has hurt and not helped most Americans, themselves included. If they ever said that their push for deregulation of the financial sector just about destroyed this economy. If they ever said that they realize that the cost of cleaning up the mess is going to be high... and that it is not going to happen overnight. If they ever said that taxes serve a purpose and are not inherently evil... but are a necessary part of having a civilized society that works for ALL and not just their wishes. If they ever said that some things are necessary for the common good. If they ever said that the social programs that they abhor and detest are made more necessary by some of the very policies that the GOP has supported. If they ever said that government action in many areas is necessary to deal with problems that face society... because individuals and groups cannot address, and will not address, all of the issues faced by the country. IF they ever admitted that any of these are truths... then maybe there would be a basis to work from.

Instead... what we see is arrogance. We see a desire to not only ignore the truth, but even an arrogance and and unwillingness to admit to possibly being wrong.

So... what they consider to be condescending ignores the fact that many of the decisions that were made under GOP/conservative leadership were wrong. They don't like to be told they were wrong, don't want to consider it, and don't want to even entertain the possibility. So... when others question their judgment or intelligence they consider it condescending. Maybe if they made the right choices... maybe if they were open to criticism... maybe if they acted if they were, in some respects, at fault... then maybe they would find a different attitude from others. But no... they don't want blame, won't own up to it. They can't accept it. What's worse, many still can't see any cause and effect at all. They are blameless. They don't like logic. They won't argue or debate logic in most cases. They just stick to the same old lines.. same old ideology. And then they dare call others condescending.

This is arrogance beyond reason.


Food for thought and while I'm sure that liberals aren't fault free by a long shot, liberals have not run this country (into the ground) over the last three decades.

[NiteOwl]

Be my guest.

Just my $ .02... so that maybe some may gain some insight into what the picture looks like outside the conservative mind.

[brossignol]

Nite Owl. If I don't have your permission I ask that the Mods delete this thread. But I've never seen such a well stated post about the CRUX of the problem in our politics today between the two Parties.


Nite Owl's excellent post...


Bross.... I'm not going to enter into the debate... but just want to add some perspective that may be missing...

First.... I'm a liberal in many respects and a moderate in many as well.

As I mentioned somewhere in the last day to two... the issue of condescending liberals ignores a few very basic issues.

The conservatives empowered the Republican Party which controlled government for the vast majority of the past three decades. The Republican Party sold out to the highest bidder when it came to legislation and enacted legislation which has been detrimental to the American economy. They sold out the working class through implementations of NAFTA and CAFTA. They fight against unions, minimum wage increase, and much anything else that represents the working class. They allowed, in fact worked toward, developing a Business/GOP alliance with the express intent of eliminating Democtrat control and actively sought to destroy Democrats and their ability to compete for seats and silence any ideas. They never worked on a bipartisan or non-partisan basis and have failed to act in good faith in nearly any respect, instead choosing to unify to a degree that they crucify their own for disloyalty. They sold out the working class.... conservatives and liberals alike.... yet, no matter what, the conservatives continued to support them. They jumped on board to crucify Clinton... to the extent of dragging the country down to do it. This over a lie while all the faults, lies and even a unwarranted, unjustified, and largely illegal war was perpetrated by Bush with their full support.

Then they simply expect no ridicule for their continued support. They disregard logic. They can never admit that their decisions were wrong... not even close. They cannot, or will not make the connection that they were largely responsible for enabling the Party that corrupted the system to a degree never seen before.

They supported the Party and policies that have led us to where we are... a complete disaster... into an abyss. They field a ticket with someone like Palin, who aside being grossly unqualified, is lacking in basic fundamental knowledge and understanding of government and current events, and expect others to take them seriously.

They make these decision and wonder why others look at their judgment with question. Their lack of judgement, or blind support of ideology, strains any ounce of credibility that they can muster imho,


BUT... It might be different if they ever said that they were wrong. If they ever said that their support of a Party that lied to even themselves deserves blame. If they ever said that the voodoo economics of Reagan began a downward spiral of the standard of living. If they ever said that deregulation has hurt and not helped most Americans, themselves included. If they ever said that their push for deregulation of the financial sector just about destroyed this economy. If they ever said that they realize that the cost of cleaning up the mess is going to be high... and that it is not going to happen overnight. If they ever said that taxes serve a purpose and are not inherently evil... but are a necessary part of having a civilized society that works for ALL and not just their wishes. If they ever said that some things are necessary for the common good. If they ever said that the social programs that they abhor and detest are made more necessary by some of the very policies that the GOP has supported. If they ever said that government action in many areas is necessary to deal with problems that face society... because individuals and groups cannot address, and will not address, all of the issues faced by the country. IF they ever admitted that any of these are truths... then maybe there would be a basis to work from.

Instead... what we see is arrogance. We see a desire to not only ignore the truth, but even an arrogance and and unwillingness to admit to possibly being wrong.

So... what they consider to be condescending ignores the fact that many of the decisions that were made under GOP/conservative leadership were wrong. They don't like to be told they were wrong, don't want to consider it, and don't want to even entertain the possibility. So... when others question their judgment or intelligence they consider it condescending. Maybe if they made the right choices... maybe if they were open to criticism... maybe if they acted if they were, in some respects, at fault... then maybe they would find a different attitude from others. But no... they don't want blame, won't own up to it. They can't accept it. What's worse, many still can't see any cause and effect at all. They are blameless. They don't like logic. They won't argue or debate logic in most cases. They just stick to the same old lines.. same old ideology. And then they dare call others condescending.

This is arrogance beyond reason.


Food for thought and while I'm sure that liberals aren't fault free by a long shot, liberals have not run this country (into the ground) over the last three decades.

Well just based on the "three decades" theory, it has already started to unravel per my facts stated in the other thread, so of course it makes perfect sense that you would find so much truth in it.....

[NiteOwl]

Nite Owl. If I don't have your permission I ask that the Mods delete this thread. But I've never seen such a well stated post about the CRUX of the problem in our politics today between the two Parties.


Nite Owl's excellent post...


Bross.... I'm not going to enter into the debate... but just want to add some perspective that may be missing...

First.... I'm a liberal in many respects and a moderate in many as well.

As I mentioned somewhere in the last day to two... the issue of condescending liberals ignores a few very basic issues.

The conservatives empowered the Republican Party which controlled government for the vast majority of the past three decades. The Republican Party sold out to the highest bidder when it came to legislation and enacted legislation which has been detrimental to the American economy. They sold out the working class through implementations of NAFTA and CAFTA. They fight against unions, minimum wage increase, and much anything else that represents the working class. They allowed, in fact worked toward, developing a Business/GOP alliance with the express intent of eliminating Democtrat control and actively sought to destroy Democrats and their ability to compete for seats and silence any ideas. They never worked on a bipartisan or non-partisan basis and have failed to act in good faith in nearly any respect, instead choosing to unify to a degree that they crucify their own for disloyalty. They sold out the working class.... conservatives and liberals alike.... yet, no matter what, the conservatives continued to support them. They jumped on board to crucify Clinton... to the extent of dragging the country down to do it. This over a lie while all the faults, lies and even a unwarranted, unjustified, and largely illegal war was perpetrated by Bush with their full support.

Then they simply expect no ridicule for their continued support. They disregard logic. They can never admit that their decisions were wrong... not even close. They cannot, or will not make the connection that they were largely responsible for enabling the Party that corrupted the system to a degree never seen before.

They supported the Party and policies that have led us to where we are... a complete disaster... into an abyss. They field a ticket with someone like Palin, who aside being grossly unqualified, is lacking in basic fundamental knowledge and understanding of government and current events, and expect others to take them seriously.

They make these decision and wonder why others look at their judgment with question. Their lack of judgement, or blind support of ideology, strains any ounce of credibility that they can muster imho,


BUT... It might be different if they ever said that they were wrong. If they ever said that their support of a Party that lied to even themselves deserves blame. If they ever said that the voodoo economics of Reagan began a downward spiral of the standard of living. If they ever said that deregulation has hurt and not helped most Americans, themselves included. If they ever said that their push for deregulation of the financial sector just about destroyed this economy. If they ever said that they realize that the cost of cleaning up the mess is going to be high... and that it is not going to happen overnight. If they ever said that taxes serve a purpose and are not inherently evil... but are a necessary part of having a civilized society that works for ALL and not just their wishes. If they ever said that some things are necessary for the common good. If they ever said that the social programs that they abhor and detest are made more necessary by some of the very policies that the GOP has supported. If they ever said that government action in many areas is necessary to deal with problems that face society... because individuals and groups cannot address, and will not address, all of the issues faced by the country. IF they ever admitted that any of these are truths... then maybe there would be a basis to work from.

Instead... what we see is arrogance. We see a desire to not only ignore the truth, but even an arrogance and and unwillingness to admit to possibly being wrong.

So... what they consider to be condescending ignores the fact that many of the decisions that were made under GOP/conservative leadership were wrong. They don't like to be told they were wrong, don't want to consider it, and don't want to even entertain the possibility. So... when others question their judgment or intelligence they consider it condescending. Maybe if they made the right choices... maybe if they were open to criticism... maybe if they acted if they were, in some respects, at fault... then maybe they would find a different attitude from others. But no... they don't want blame, won't own up to it. They can't accept it. What's worse, many still can't see any cause and effect at all. They are blameless. They don't like logic. They won't argue or debate logic in most cases. They just stick to the same old lines.. same old ideology. And then they dare call others condescending.

This is arrogance beyond reason.


Food for thought and while I'm sure that liberals aren't fault free by a long shot, liberals have not run this country (into the ground) over the last three decades.

Well just based on the "three decades" theory, it has already started to unravel per my facts stated in the other thread, so of course it makes perfect sense that you would find so much truth in it.....

Don't obfuscate the fact that GOP/conservative policies dominated the past 28 years and the policies supported by conservatives are largely behind the unraveling of reality that we see today.

You can refute control... but the policies which were enacted were GOP/conservative policies... and the results are self evident. And... as far as REAL control, the Dems really had NO real control over the entire 28 year period... and even when they did, they did not act in a liberal fashion. It can hardly be argued that Clinton was a liberal. Clinton was moderate/centrist and never push ANY liberal agenda except for the short-lived healthcare reform attempt.

[brossignol]

Nite Owl. If I don't have your permission I ask that the Mods delete this thread. But I've never seen such a well stated post about the CRUX of the problem in our politics today between the two Parties.


Nite Owl's excellent post...


Bross.... I'm not going to enter into the debate... but just want to add some perspective that may be missing...

First.... I'm a liberal in many respects and a moderate in many as well.

As I mentioned somewhere in the last day to two... the issue of condescending liberals ignores a few very basic issues.

The conservatives empowered the Republican Party which controlled government for the vast majority of the past three decades. The Republican Party sold out to the highest bidder when it came to legislation and enacted legislation which has been detrimental to the American economy. They sold out the working class through implementations of NAFTA and CAFTA. They fight against unions, minimum wage increase, and much anything else that represents the working class. They allowed, in fact worked toward, developing a Business/GOP alliance with the express intent of eliminating Democtrat control and actively sought to destroy Democrats and their ability to compete for seats and silence any ideas. They never worked on a bipartisan or non-partisan basis and have failed to act in good faith in nearly any respect, instead choosing to unify to a degree that they crucify their own for disloyalty. They sold out the working class.... conservatives and liberals alike.... yet, no matter what, the conservatives continued to support them. They jumped on board to crucify Clinton... to the extent of dragging the country down to do it. This over a lie while all the faults, lies and even a unwarranted, unjustified, and largely illegal war was perpetrated by Bush with their full support.

Then they simply expect no ridicule for their continued support. They disregard logic. They can never admit that their decisions were wrong... not even close. They cannot, or will not make the connection that they were largely responsible for enabling the Party that corrupted the system to a degree never seen before.

They supported the Party and policies that have led us to where we are... a complete disaster... into an abyss. They field a ticket with someone like Palin, who aside being grossly unqualified, is lacking in basic fundamental knowledge and understanding of government and current events, and expect others to take them seriously.

They make these decision and wonder why others look at their judgment with question. Their lack of judgement, or blind support of ideology, strains any ounce of credibility that they can muster imho,


BUT... It might be different if they ever said that they were wrong. If they ever said that their support of a Party that lied to even themselves deserves blame. If they ever said that the voodoo economics of Reagan began a downward spiral of the standard of living. If they ever said that deregulation has hurt and not helped most Americans, themselves included. If they ever said that their push for deregulation of the financial sector just about destroyed this economy. If they ever said that they realize that the cost of cleaning up the mess is going to be high... and that it is not going to happen overnight. If they ever said that taxes serve a purpose and are not inherently evil... but are a necessary part of having a civilized society that works for ALL and not just their wishes. If they ever said that some things are necessary for the common good. If they ever said that the social programs that they abhor and detest are made more necessary by some of the very policies that the GOP has supported. If they ever said that government action in many areas is necessary to deal with problems that face society... because individuals and groups cannot address, and will not address, all of the issues faced by the country. IF they ever admitted that any of these are truths... then maybe there would be a basis to work from.

Instead... what we see is arrogance. We see a desire to not only ignore the truth, but even an arrogance and and unwillingness to admit to possibly being wrong.

So... what they consider to be condescending ignores the fact that many of the decisions that were made under GOP/conservative leadership were wrong. They don't like to be told they were wrong, don't want to consider it, and don't want to even entertain the possibility. So... when others question their judgment or intelligence they consider it condescending. Maybe if they made the right choices... maybe if they were open to criticism... maybe if they acted if they were, in some respects, at fault... then maybe they would find a different attitude from others. But no... they don't want blame, won't own up to it. They can't accept it. What's worse, many still can't see any cause and effect at all. They are blameless. They don't like logic. They won't argue or debate logic in most cases. They just stick to the same old lines.. same old ideology. And then they dare call others condescending.

This is arrogance beyond reason.


Food for thought and while I'm sure that liberals aren't fault free by a long shot, liberals have not run this country (into the ground) over the last three decades.

Well just based on the "three decades" theory, it has already started to unravel per my facts stated in the other thread, so of course it makes perfect sense that you would find so much truth in it.....

Don't obfuscate the fact that GOP/conservative policies dominated the past 28 years and the policies supported by conservatives are largely behind the unraveling of reality that we see today.

You can refute control... but the policies which were enacted were GOP/conservative policies... and the results are self evident. And... as far as REAL control, the Dems really had NO real control over the entire 28 year period... and even when they did, they did not act in a liberal fashion. It can hardly be argued that Clinton was a liberal. Clinton was moderate/centrist and never push ANY liberal agenda except for the short-lived healthcare reform attempt.

OK, first this is all just opinion and conjecture.

But even if one accepted what you say to be true then one would also have to accept that the democrats are either inept, incapable and/or just plain weak because they were in power of Congress for 5 of the Congresses, as were the republicans and also held the White House for 2 years, while the republicans also held it for 4. So then logic would dictate that, if the republicans policies were so distasteful then the democrats would have undone those policies. But since they didn't they are inept, incapable and/or weak. Or the more likely scenario: they are just as much to blame.

And you do see how quickly you made this a liberals vs. republicans thing, right? That alone makes your argument flawed.

[NiteOwl]

Nite Owl. If I don't have your permission I ask that the Mods delete this thread. But I've never seen such a well stated post about the CRUX of the problem in our politics today between the two Parties.


Nite Owl's excellent post...


Bross.... I'm not going to enter into the debate... but just want to add some perspective that may be missing...

First.... I'm a liberal in many respects and a moderate in many as well.

As I mentioned somewhere in the last day to two... the issue of condescending liberals ignores a few very basic issues.

The conservatives empowered the Republican Party which controlled government for the vast majority of the past three decades. The Republican Party sold out to the highest bidder when it came to legislation and enacted legislation which has been detrimental to the American economy. They sold out the working class through implementations of NAFTA and CAFTA. They fight against unions, minimum wage increase, and much anything else that represents the working class. They allowed, in fact worked toward, developing a Business/GOP alliance with the express intent of eliminating Democtrat control and actively sought to destroy Democrats and their ability to compete for seats and silence any ideas. They never worked on a bipartisan or non-partisan basis and have failed to act in good faith in nearly any respect, instead choosing to unify to a degree that they crucify their own for disloyalty. They sold out the working class.... conservatives and liberals alike.... yet, no matter what, the conservatives continued to support them. They jumped on board to crucify Clinton... to the extent of dragging the country down to do it. This over a lie while all the faults, lies and even a unwarranted, unjustified, and largely illegal war was perpetrated by Bush with their full support.

Then they simply expect no ridicule for their continued support. They disregard logic. They can never admit that their decisions were wrong... not even close. They cannot, or will not make the connection that they were largely responsible for enabling the Party that corrupted the system to a degree never seen before.

They supported the Party and policies that have led us to where we are... a complete disaster... into an abyss. They field a ticket with someone like Palin, who aside being grossly unqualified, is lacking in basic fundamental knowledge and understanding of government and current events, and expect others to take them seriously.

They make these decision and wonder why others look at their judgment with question. Their lack of judgement, or blind support of ideology, strains any ounce of credibility that they can muster imho,


BUT... It might be different if they ever said that they were wrong. If they ever said that their support of a Party that lied to even themselves deserves blame. If they ever said that the voodoo economics of Reagan began a downward spiral of the standard of living. If they ever said that deregulation has hurt and not helped most Americans, themselves included. If they ever said that their push for deregulation of the financial sector just about destroyed this economy. If they ever said that they realize that the cost of cleaning up the mess is going to be high... and that it is not going to happen overnight. If they ever said that taxes serve a purpose and are not inherently evil... but are a necessary part of having a civilized society that works for ALL and not just their wishes. If they ever said that some things are necessary for the common good. If they ever said that the social programs that they abhor and detest are made more necessary by some of the very policies that the GOP has supported. If they ever said that government action in many areas is necessary to deal with problems that face society... because individuals and groups cannot address, and will not address, all of the issues faced by the country. IF they ever admitted that any of these are truths... then maybe there would be a basis to work from.

Instead... what we see is arrogance. We see a desire to not only ignore the truth, but even an arrogance and and unwillingness to admit to possibly being wrong.

So... what they consider to be condescending ignores the fact that many of the decisions that were made under GOP/conservative leadership were wrong. They don't like to be told they were wrong, don't want to consider it, and don't want to even entertain the possibility. So... when others question their judgment or intelligence they consider it condescending. Maybe if they made the right choices... maybe if they were open to criticism... maybe if they acted if they were, in some respects, at fault... then maybe they would find a different attitude from others. But no... they don't want blame, won't own up to it. They can't accept it. What's worse, many still can't see any cause and effect at all. They are blameless. They don't like logic. They won't argue or debate logic in most cases. They just stick to the same old lines.. same old ideology. And then they dare call others condescending.

This is arrogance beyond reason.


Food for thought and while I'm sure that liberals aren't fault free by a long shot, liberals have not run this country (into the ground) over the last three decades.

Well just based on the "three decades" theory, it has already started to unravel per my facts stated in the other thread, so of course it makes perfect sense that you would find so much truth in it.....

Don't obfuscate the fact that GOP/conservative policies dominated the past 28 years and the policies supported by conservatives are largely behind the unraveling of reality that we see today.

You can refute control... but the policies which were enacted were GOP/conservative policies... and the results are self evident. And... as far as REAL control, the Dems really had NO real control over the entire 28 year period... and even when they did, they did not act in a liberal fashion. It can hardly be argued that Clinton was a liberal. Clinton was moderate/centrist and never push ANY liberal agenda except for the short-lived healthcare reform attempt.

OK, first this is all just opinion and conjecture.

But even if one accepted what you say to be true then one would also have to accept that the democrats are either inept, incapable and/or just plain weak because they were in power of Congress for 5 of the Congresses, as were the republicans and also held the White House for 2 years, while the republicans also held it for 4. So then logic would dictate that, if the republicans policies were so distasteful then the democrats would have undone those policies. But since they didn't they are inept, incapable and/or weak. Or the more likely scenario: they are just as much to blame.

And you do see how quickly you made this a liberals vs. republicans thing, right? That alone makes your argument flawed.

Bross.... don't disregard that the Dems have ALWAYS been split. They have a conservative element that also enabled GOP policies and they have never acted as a singular voting block.... more often splitting their vote than not. So.... even when the Dems MAY have been able to filibuster or block legislation that the GOP wanted from a theoretical side, it was not a practical reality.

[brossignol]

Nite Owl. If I don't have your permission I ask that the Mods delete this thread. But I've never seen such a well stated post about the CRUX of the problem in our politics today between the two Parties.


Nite Owl's excellent post...


Bross.... I'm not going to enter into the debate... but just want to add some perspective that may be missing...

First.... I'm a liberal in many respects and a moderate in many as well.

As I mentioned somewhere in the last day to two... the issue of condescending liberals ignores a few very basic issues.

The conservatives empowered the Republican Party which controlled government for the vast majority of the past three decades. The Republican Party sold out to the highest bidder when it came to legislation and enacted legislation which has been detrimental to the American economy. They sold out the working class through implementations of NAFTA and CAFTA. They fight against unions, minimum wage increase, and much anything else that represents the working class. They allowed, in fact worked toward, developing a Business/GOP alliance with the express intent of eliminating Democtrat control and actively sought to destroy Democrats and their ability to compete for seats and silence any ideas. They never worked on a bipartisan or non-partisan basis and have failed to act in good faith in nearly any respect, instead choosing to unify to a degree that they crucify their own for disloyalty. They sold out the working class.... conservatives and liberals alike.... yet, no matter what, the conservatives continued to support them. They jumped on board to crucify Clinton... to the extent of dragging the country down to do it. This over a lie while all the faults, lies and even a unwarranted, unjustified, and largely illegal war was perpetrated by Bush with their full support.

Then they simply expect no ridicule for their continued support. They disregard logic. They can never admit that their decisions were wrong... not even close. They cannot, or will not make the connection that they were largely responsible for enabling the Party that corrupted the system to a degree never seen before.

They supported the Party and policies that have led us to where we are... a complete disaster... into an abyss. They field a ticket with someone like Palin, who aside being grossly unqualified, is lacking in basic fundamental knowledge and understanding of government and current events, and expect others to take them seriously.

They make these decision and wonder why others look at their judgment with question. Their lack of judgement, or blind support of ideology, strains any ounce of credibility that they can muster imho,


BUT... It might be different if they ever said that they were wrong. If they ever said that their support of a Party that lied to even themselves deserves blame. If they ever said that the voodoo economics of Reagan began a downward spiral of the standard of living. If they ever said that deregulation has hurt and not helped most Americans, themselves included. If they ever said that their push for deregulation of the financial sector just about destroyed this economy. If they ever said that they realize that the cost of cleaning up the mess is going to be high... and that it is not going to happen overnight. If they ever said that taxes serve a purpose and are not inherently evil... but are a necessary part of having a civilized society that works for ALL and not just their wishes. If they ever said that some things are necessary for the common good. If they ever said that the social programs that they abhor and detest are made more necessary by some of the very policies that the GOP has supported. If they ever said that government action in many areas is necessary to deal with problems that face society... because individuals and groups cannot address, and will not address, all of the issues faced by the country. IF they ever admitted that any of these are truths... then maybe there would be a basis to work from.

Instead... what we see is arrogance. We see a desire to not only ignore the truth, but even an arrogance and and unwillingness to admit to possibly being wrong.

So... what they consider to be condescending ignores the fact that many of the decisions that were made under GOP/conservative leadership were wrong. They don't like to be told they were wrong, don't want to consider it, and don't want to even entertain the possibility. So... when others question their judgment or intelligence they consider it condescending. Maybe if they made the right choices... maybe if they were open to criticism... maybe if they acted if they were, in some respects, at fault... then maybe they would find a different attitude from others. But no... they don't want blame, won't own up to it. They can't accept it. What's worse, many still can't see any cause and effect at all. They are blameless. They don't like logic. They won't argue or debate logic in most cases. They just stick to the same old lines.. same old ideology. And then they dare call others condescending.

This is arrogance beyond reason.


Food for thought and while I'm sure that liberals aren't fault free by a long shot, liberals have not run this country (into the ground) over the last three decades.

Well just based on the "three decades" theory, it has already started to unravel per my facts stated in the other thread, so of course it makes perfect sense that you would find so much truth in it.....

Don't obfuscate the fact that GOP/conservative policies dominated the past 28 years and the policies supported by conservatives are largely behind the unraveling of reality that we see today.

You can refute control... but the policies which were enacted were GOP/conservative policies... and the results are self evident. And... as far as REAL control, the Dems really had NO real control over the entire 28 year period... and even when they did, they did not act in a liberal fashion. It can hardly be argued that Clinton was a liberal. Clinton was moderate/centrist and never push ANY liberal agenda except for the short-lived healthcare reform attempt.

OK, first this is all just opinion and conjecture.

But even if one accepted what you say to be true then one would also have to accept that the democrats are either inept, incapable and/or just plain weak because they were in power of Congress for 5 of the Congresses, as were the republicans and also held the White House for 2 years, while the republicans also held it for 4. So then logic would dictate that, if the republicans policies were so distasteful then the democrats would have undone those policies. But since they didn't they are inept, incapable and/or weak. Or the more likely scenario: they are just as much to blame.

And you do see how quickly you made this a liberals vs. republicans thing, right? That alone makes your argument flawed.

Bross.... don't disregard that the Dems have ALWAYS been split. They have a conservative element that also enabled GOP policies and they have never acted as a singular voting block.... more often splitting their vote than not. So.... even when the Dems MAY have been able to filibuster or block legislation that the GOP wanted from a theoretical side, it was not a practical reality.

OK, so following the logic: All republicans are conservative, some democrats are conservative and some are liberal which causes the split you referred to. That means the majority of the government is conservative which would be a reflection of the majority of the country being conservative and since in a democracy majority rules, then liberals have become irrelevant??

[NiteOwl]

OK, so following the logic: All republicans are conservative, some democrats are conservative and some are liberal which causes the split you referred to. That means the majority of the government is conservative which would be a reflection of the majority of the country being conservative and since in a democracy majority rules, then liberals have become irrelevant??

That's about it... although I would not say irrelevant. I would say in the minorty... but right so far as condemnation of conservative policy of the last 30 years is concerned.

Bottom line... We cannot continue the same policies that have created such an inequitable distribution of wealth and have anything resembling a decent standard of living for the working class.

[brossignol]

OK, so following the logic: All republicans are conservative, some democrats are conservative and some are liberal which causes the split you referred to. That means the majority of the government is conservative which would be a reflection of the majority of the country being conservative and since in a democracy majority rules, then liberals have become irrelevant??

That's about it... although I would not say irrelevant. I would say in the minorty... but right so far as condemnation of conservative policy of the last 30 years is concerned.

Bottom line... We cannot continue the same policies that have created such an inequitable distribution of wealth and have anything resembling a decent standard of living for the working class.

Right or just possessing their own perspective and maybe just partially right?

I agree with your second sentence, except that it was necessarily policy that created the problem; but the problem exists, blame is not an issue. Now the question is: How would you change that?

[NiteOwl]

OK, so following the logic: All republicans are conservative, some democrats are conservative and some are liberal which causes the split you referred to. That means the majority of the government is conservative which would be a reflection of the majority of the country being conservative and since in a democracy majority rules, then liberals have become irrelevant??

That's about it... although I would not say irrelevant. I would say in the minorty... but right so far as condemnation of conservative policy of the last 30 years is concerned.

Bottom line... We cannot continue the same policies that have created such an inequitable distribution of wealth and have anything resembling a decent standard of living for the working class.

Right or just possessing their own perspective and maybe just partially right?

I agree with your second sentence, except that it was necessarily policy that created the problem; but the problem exists, blame is not an issue. Now the question is: How would you change that?

But Bross... the whole point of my post was not to place blame... just to point out why some on the other side feel as they do. Blame is a natural human emotional reaction.... as we are human and don't exist in a vacuum which excludes cause and effect. So... while I don't want to dwell on the past, it is relevant for how those "condescending liberals" feel and why.

[brossignol]

OK, so following the logic: All republicans are conservative, some democrats are conservative and some are liberal which causes the split you referred to. That means the majority of the government is conservative which would be a reflection of the majority of the country being conservative and since in a democracy majority rules, then liberals have become irrelevant??

That's about it... although I would not say irrelevant. I would say in the minorty... but right so far as condemnation of conservative policy of the last 30 years is concerned.

Bottom line... We cannot continue the same policies that have created such an inequitable distribution of wealth and have anything resembling a decent standard of living for the working class.

Right or just possessing their own perspective and maybe just partially right?

I agree with your second sentence, except that it was necessarily policy that created the problem; but the problem exists, blame is not an issue. Now the question is: How would you change that?

But Bross... the whole point of my post was not to place blame... just to point out why some on the other side feel as they do. Blame is a natural human emotional reaction.... as we are human and don't exist in a vacuum which excludes cause and effect. So... while I don't want to dwell on the past, it is relevant for how those "condescending liberals" feel and why.

But the thing is that it SOUNDS "blamey". Often in an imperfect medium like this, intent is not always communicated effectively.

It behooves intellectuals to quickly get beyond blame (even though no one can help but think it) and start discussing solutions.

[NiteOwl]

OK, so following the logic: All republicans are conservative, some democrats are conservative and some are liberal which causes the split you referred to. That means the majority of the government is conservative which would be a reflection of the majority of the country being conservative and since in a democracy majority rules, then liberals have become irrelevant??

That's about it... although I would not say irrelevant. I would say in the minorty... but right so far as condemnation of conservative policy of the last 30 years is concerned.

Bottom line... We cannot continue the same policies that have created such an inequitable distribution of wealth and have anything resembling a decent standard of living for the working class.

Right or just possessing their own perspective and maybe just partially right?

I agree with your second sentence, except that it was necessarily policy that created the problem; but the problem exists, blame is not an issue. Now the question is: How would you change that?

But Bross... the whole point of my post was not to place blame... just to point out why some on the other side feel as they do. Blame is a natural human emotional reaction.... as we are human and don't exist in a vacuum which excludes cause and effect. So... while I don't want to dwell on the past, it is relevant for how those "condescending liberals" feel and why.

But the thing is that it SOUNDS "blamey". Often in an imperfect medium like this, intent is not always communicated effectively.

It behooves intellectuals to quickly get beyond blame (even though no one can help but think it) and start discussing solutions.

I know.... but my point was to give the countering POV that apparently gets lost or disregarded.

Also why I didn't want to get into a debate because I didn't want to get into an ongoing blame game.... and why I said it serves no purpose.

[brossignol]

That's about it... although I would not say irrelevant. I would say in the minorty... but right so far as condemnation of conservative policy of the last 30 years is concerned.

Bottom line... We cannot continue the same policies that have created such an inequitable distribution of wealth and have anything resembling a decent standard of living for the working class.

Right or just possessing their own perspective and maybe just partially right?

I agree with your second sentence, except that it was necessarily policy that created the problem; but the problem exists, blame is not an issue. Now the question is: How would you change that?

But Bross... the whole point of my post was not to place blame... just to point out why some on the other side feel as they do. Blame is a natural human emotional reaction.... as we are human and don't exist in a vacuum which excludes cause and effect. So... while I don't want to dwell on the past, it is relevant for how those "condescending liberals" feel and why.

But the thing is that it SOUNDS "blamey". Often in an imperfect medium like this, intent is not always communicated effectively.

It behooves intellectuals to quickly get beyond blame (even though no one can help but think it) and start discussing solutions.

I know.... but my point was to give the countering POV that apparently gets lost or disregarded.

Also why I didn't want to get into a debate because I didn't want to get into an ongoing blame game.... and why I said it serves no purpose.

But it stimulates thought.

I don't think that it gets lost or disregarded. There are too many people that won't let it get either.

[billfmsd]

OK, so following the logic: All republicans are conservative, some democrats are conservative and some are liberal which causes the split you referred to. That means the majority of the government is conservative which would be a reflection of the majority of the country being conservative and since in a democracy majority rules, then liberals have become irrelevant??

I don't think the majority of the country is conservative. I think the majority of the country votes for conservative policies just because they think that the policies are tried and true.

My guess is that 80% of the left and 30% of the right is liberal. Probably 60% of the DNC is liberal and 40% of the GOP are liberals who favor conservative policies or liberal imperialistic policies. Probably 50% of the MIC is liberal. Neocons are liberals that just use conservatives by mixing the MIC with the religious right for the sake of power. Someone may have some statistics that prove otherwise, but my estimations are based on what I think people are despite what they say.

[brossignol]

OK, so following the logic: All republicans are conservative, some democrats are conservative and some are liberal which causes the split you referred to. That means the majority of the government is conservative which would be a reflection of the majority of the country being conservative and since in a democracy majority rules, then liberals have become irrelevant??

I don't think the majority of the country is conservative. I think the majority of the country votes for conservative policies just because they think that the policies are tried and true.

My guess is that 80% of the left and 30% of the right is liberal. Probably 60% of the DNC is liberal and 40% of the GOP are liberals who favor conservative policies or liberal imperialistic policies. Probably 50% of the MIC is liberal. Neocons are liberals that just use conservatives by mixing the MIC with the religious right for the sake of power. Someone may have some statistics that prove otherwise, but my estimations are based on what I think people are despite what they say.

I would tend to say that our country is largely moderate with slightly conservative leanings. Probably leftovers from our Puritanical beginnings.

I find it interesting any time I visit other countries to make comparisons. And after having spent a bit of time in another country it is always interesting to come back home. It does give one a slightly different perspective. If I have the chance, I would love to spend at least 2 years in another country to really see the difference.

But I can honestly say that as far as liberal leanings, we are not even close to any European (Germany might be closest in some ways) countries and nowhere near New Zealand or Australia.

Our next trip will likely be to either the Middle East or China so that will be a different perspective althogether.