Life in OUR America, Volume 2, The Livyjr Files Options

[jeffmoskin]

"Guantanamo Bay is a useful purpose in the war on terror, but under the current regime, under the current circumstances, it's not effectively working," Graham said.

Yes it is, Graham.

LBJ gave us the "War on Poverty"

Failure.

Nixon gave us the "War on Cancer."

Failure.

Reagan gave us the "War on Drugs."

Failure.

Bush the Lesser gave us the "War on Terror."

Failure.

"Insanity is when you do the same thing over and over and expect a different result." - A. Einstein

[Livyjr]

The column didn't get attached, or was removed by big brother.

Thanks for picking up on that, jeffmoskin!

Say, do you really think the "shadow government" of Dick Cheney has now entered into this realm, and he is now cherry-picking Mr. A.B.'s posts to keep us in infernal, or is it eternal ignorance?

[Livyjr]

Yes it is, Graham.

Bush the Lesser gave us the "War on Terror."

Failure.

"Insanity is when you do the same thing over and over and expect a different result." - A. Einstein

Insanity is when you take incompetents and make presidents out of them, because then all you have is an incompetent with a lot of power, which makes for a very dangerous situation, indeed, because when insanity rules, as it sure seems to do in this country these days, then rationality has had to go right out the window, and there is where we are!

And what exactly is this "war" Bush has going now?

Sometimes I hear it, and see it in print as a "wah agin tay-rah", and then sometimes, it is a "wah, on tay-rah", while most of the time, from what I can see, it is in reality a WAR OF TERROR AGAINST EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT THINK THAT GEORGE W. BUSH IS SENT BY GOD TO SAVE THE WORLD FROM PEOPLE NOT LIKE HIM, AND HIS, WHO KNOW WHAT IS BEST FOR EVERYONE, WELL, BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT GOD REALLY WANTS!

Isn't that why GOD pulled George W. Bush out of that Ripple bottle, or was it Mogen David, no, Thunderbird, I think it was, so as to have George W. Bush for his PROPHET down here on this earth of OURS, so as to lead us all into salvation, even if we were never drunks, ourselves, without rich daddies, to pave our own ways for us, while we just stayed sloppy drunk all the time, or until age forty, whichever came last?

[jeffmoskin]

Isn't that why GOD pulled George W. Bush out of that Ripple bottle, or was it Mogen David, no, Thunderbird, I think it was, so as to have George W. Bush for his PROPHET down here on this earth of OURS, so as to lead us all into salvation, even if we were never drunks, ourselves, without rich daddies, to pave our own ways for us, while we just stayed sloppy drunk all the time, or until age forty, whichever came last?

I know this should probably have gone on the GWB vs the Bible page, but...

since we are talking about PROPHETS here (0r was it profits, Mr. Cheney?), this like reminds us that Jeremiah WARNED us to...

BEWARE OF FALSE PROPHETS

http://www.pbcc.org/sermons/hanneman/1317.html

[Livyjr]

I know this should probably have gone on the GWB vs the Bible page, but...

since we are talking about PROPHETS here (0r was it profits, Mr. Cheney?), this like reminds us that Jeremiah WARNED us to...

BEWARE OF FALSE PROPHETS!

http://www.pbcc.org/sermons/hanneman/1317.html

Wow, jeffmoskin!

That's quite a sermon!

And while that SHOULD go over to Mr. A.B.'s "Religion and Politics" thread, AS WELL, I for one am glad that you posted it here, and I hope that it gets a wide read, and people need to open up their consciousnesses a bit, here in OUR America, to start to consider that there have been other nations on this earth, and they are now gone, for what in the end seem like real solid reasons to me, such as this sermon in your link, is mentioning, as well.

People toss "God bless America" around these days, as if it were a command that God had to obey, or else, and as I look back on history, evey time people in a nation somewhere on the face of this earth start doing that ........

[Livyjr]

And since we are on that topic, people who are in charge of everything, including GOD, as George W. Bush and Scottie McClellan and Karl Rove and the Governor of Texas all are:

"White House rejects call for Iraq pullout timetable"

1 hour, 46 minutes ago

WASHINGTON (AFP) - The White House rejected calls for setting a precise timetable for a US withdrawal from Iraq, even as a new poll showed almost six in 10 Americans want at least a partial pullout of US forces.

"We will leave when we complete the mission," spokesman Scott McClellan said a day after a representative in US President George W. Bush's Republican party said he would push legislation fixing a firm schedule for such a withdrawal.

"We are not going to stay a day longer than what is necessary."

"But what we're working to achieve in Iraq is vital to peace and security for generations to come," said McClellan.

Representative Walter Jones, a North Carolina Republican, said on ABC television Sunday that he would introduce a bill calling for a firm timetable for withdrawing US forces from Iraq.

"This is what I believe is the right thing to do for our military first; and secondly, I think we are doing everything we can do in Iraq to give them an opportunity to have a democracy, to defend themselves," Jones told ABC.

Amid sustained violence in Iraq, Bush discussed the political process there by telephone with Iraqi President Jalal Talabani and praised "his strong and courageous leadership," according to McClellan.

The two leaders agreed on the importance of meeting an August 15 deadline for writing Iraq's constitution and on the need to have the country's government be "inclusive" of ethnic and religious minorities, he said.

Bush congratulated Talabani and Kurdish leaders on the formation of a unified regional government for Iraq's three autonomous Kurdish provinces, and the two leaders "noted how this demonstrates the importance of reconciliation to the rest of Iraq," said the spokesman.

McClellan also dismissed a poll, published Monday in USA Today, showing that 59 percent of respondents, an unprecedented number, want US soldiers to quit the violence-wracked country.

"There are difficult challenges that remain, but we have made significant progress," he said, citing elections and the formation of a government.

"Democracy, as the president has talked about, takes time, and we all must do what we can to support the Iraqi people as they move forward."

"They have shown that they want a democratic future," he said.

"What we are working to achieve in Iraq is vital to transforming a dangerous region of the world, and promoting long-term peace and security."

"And we must continue to do all we can to support the Iraqi people as they move forward on freedom and democracy, and it's important that we complete the mission," he said.

"And that means training Iraqi forces so that they can provide for their own security."

"At that point, our troops will be able to return home, with the honor that they deserve," said McClellan.

end quotes

George W. Bush wouldn't know democracy if it was staring him in the face, as it is over there in Iraq, right now, where the insurgents are as much a part of the "democratic" process as anything is over there, and Scott McClellan is full of ****!

"We will leave when we complete the mission," spokesman Scott McClellan said?

SO?

What MISSION ACCOMPLISHED was George W. Bush talking about when he was sashaying and piroueting around on that carrier deck, in his designer flight suit with the cod piece on it to make him look "manly" and "HUNKY"?

The MISSION of taking advantage of the American people through a carefully crafted set of lies?

[Abu Beacon]

The column didn't get attached, or was removed by big brother.

If big bro. remains in power long enough you can bet that he will have a secret group to check internet postings. Checking = editing, censoring, removing the offending post and quite possibly the offending poster.

HOWEVER. in this case that was not what happened. I copied columnist Rich's excellent column and forgot to paste it.

I have been known to do things like that from time to time.

Very good catch Jeffmo.

A.B.

[Livyjr]

And since we are on that topic, people who are in charge of everything, including GOD, as George W. Bush and Scottie McClellan and Karl Rove and the Governor of Texas all are:

"White House rejects call for Iraq pullout timetable"

WASHINGTON (AFP) - The White House rejected calls for setting a precise timetable for a US withdrawal from Iraq, even as a new poll showed almost six in 10 Americans want at least a partial pullout of US forces.

"We will leave when we complete the mission," spokesman Scott McClellan said a day after a representative in US President George W. Bush's Republican party said he would push legislation fixing a firm schedule for such a withdrawal.

"We are not going to stay a day longer than what is necessary."

"But what we're working to achieve in Iraq is vital to peace and security for generations to come," said McClellan.

end quotes

George W. Bush wouldn't know democracy if it was staring him in the face, as it is over there in Iraq, right now, where the insurgents are as much a part of the "democratic" process as anything is over there, and Scott McClellan is full of ****!

"We will leave when we complete the mission," spokesman Scott McClellan said?

SO?

What MISSION ACCOMPLISHED was George W. Bush talking about when he was sashaying and piroueting around on that carrier deck, in his designer flight suit with the cod piece on it to make him look "manly" and "HUNKY"?

The MISSION of taking advantage of the American people through a carefully crafted set of lies?

Scott McClellan?

Who in the Hell is Scott McClellan?

And what kind of idiots do they take us for, down there in Washington, D.C., having this idiot named Scott McClellan telling us all of this crap and drivel, all the time, ON BEHALF OF OUR GOVERNMENT?

"Generals look to a political solution - Top U.S. officers in Iraq begin to concede military action alone can't defeat the insurgency"

By TOM LASSETER, Knight-Ridder

First published: Monday, June 13, 2005

BAGHDAD, Iraq -- A growing number of senior American military officers in Iraq have concluded that there is no long-term military solution to an insurgency that has killed thousands of Iraqis and more than 1,300 U.S. troops during the past two years.

Instead, officers say, the only way to end the guerrilla war is through Iraqi politics -- an arena that so far has been crippled by divisions between Shiite Muslims, whose coalition dominated the January elections, and Sunni Muslims, who are a minority in Iraq but form the base of support for the insurgency.

"I think the more accurate way to approach this right now is to concede that ... this insurgency is not going to be settled, the terrorists and the terrorism in Iraq is not going to be settled, through military options or military operations," Brig. Gen. Donald Alston, the chief U.S. military spokesman in Iraq, said last week, in a comment that echoes what other senior officers say.

"It's going to be settled in the political process."

Gen. George W. Casey, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, expressed similar sentiments, calling the military's efforts "the Pillsbury Doughboy idea" -- pressing the insurgency in one area only causes it to rise elsewhere.

"Like in Baghdad," Casey said during an interview with two newspaper reporters, including one from Knight Ridder, last week.

"We push in Baghdad -- they're down to about less than a car bomb a day in Baghdad over the last week -- but in north-center (Iraq) ... they've gone up," he said.

"The political process will be the decisive element."

The recognition that a military solution is not in the offing has led U.S. and Iraqi officials to signal they are willing to negotiate with insurgent groups, or their intermediaries.

"It has evolved in the course of normal business," said a senior U.S. diplomatic official in Baghdad, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of U.S. policy to defer to the Iraqi government on Iraqi political matters.

"We have now encountered people who at least claim to have some form of a relationship with the insurgency."

The message is markedly different from previous statements by U.S. officials who spoke of quashing the insurgency by rounding up or killing "dead enders" loyal to former dictator Saddam Hussein[/u].

As recently as two weeks ago, in a Memorial Day interview on CNN's "Larry King Live," Vice President Dick Cheney said he believed the insurgency was in its "last throes."

But the violence has continued unabated, even though 44 of the 55 Iraqis portrayed in the military's famous "deck of cards" have been killed or captured, including Saddam.

Lt. Col. Frederick P. Wellman, who works with the task force overseeing the training of Iraqi security troops, said the insurgency doesn't seem to be running out of new recruits, a dynamic fueled by tribal members seeking revenge for relatives killed in fighting.

"We can't kill them all," Wellman said.

"When I kill one, I create three."

American officials had hoped that January's national elections would blunt the insurgency by giving the population hope for their political future.

But so far, the political process has not in any meaningful way included Iraq's Sunni Muslim population.

Most of Iraq's Sunnis, motivated either by fear or boycott, did not vote, and they hold a scant 17 seats in the 275-member parliament.

On Sunday, Iraq moved further toward a political stalemate, after Shiite political leaders agreed on what they said was a compromise to include Sunni Arabs in the writing of a constitution, but Sunni representatives rejected the offer, The New York Times reported.

The Associated Press reported these other developments Sunday:

The White House took exception to the reported characterization of a British memo questioning the adequacy of U.S. planning for a postwar occupation of Iraq.

"There was significant postwar planning," said spokesman David Almacy.

"More importantly, the memo in question was written eight months before the war began; there was significant postwar planning in the time that elapsed."

He was reacting to a report in Sunday editions of The Washington Post that a staff paper prepared for British Prime Minister Tony Blair before the invasion concluded that "a postwar occupation of Iraq could lead to a protracted and costly nation-building exercise" that could result in the United States looking to Britain "to share a disproportionate share of the burden."

Four American soldiers died Saturday in two roadside bombings west of Baghdad, increasing to at least 1,701 the number of U.S. forces who have died in Iraq since the war began in March 2003.

Police found the bullet-riddled bodies of 28 people -- many thought to be Sunni Arabs -- buried in shallow graves or dumped streetside in Baghdad.

French journalist Florence Aubenas and her Iraqi assistant, Hussein Hanoun al-Saadi, were freed Saturday after five months in captivity.

Some 2,000 soccer fans tried to ignore the violence and watched two of Iraq's elite teams play at Baghdad's biggest sports complex, the 50,000-capacity Shaab Stadium.

It reopened to the public Sunday after it was commandeered two years ago for a U.S. military base.

end quotes

This Scott McClellan, with all the crap that boy can spew, with just that one mouth of his alone, that boy could fertilize a forty-acre field with his mouth in about five minutes, and equal a herd of two or three thousand bulls in the process!

I wonder how much of OUR TAX MONEY goes to that boy so that he can tell us lies all day long, and half the evening, as well?

Probably a couple of hundred thousand, with bonuses!

[Livyjr]

Good to see you around, as always, Mr. A.B.!

[Livyjr]

Scott McClellan?

Who in the Hell is Scott McClellan?

And what kind of idiots do they take us for, down there in Washington, D.C., having this idiot named Scott McClellan telling us all of this crap and drivel, all the time, ON BEHALF OF OUR GOVERNMENT?

"Generals look to a political solution - Top U.S. officers in Iraq begin to concede military action alone can't defeat the insurgency" 
 
By TOM LASSETER, Knight-Ridder

First published: Monday, June 13, 2005

BAGHDAD, Iraq -- A growing number of senior American military officers in Iraq have concluded that there is no long-term military solution to an insurgency that has killed thousands of Iraqis and more than 1,300 U.S. troops during the past two years.

Instead, officers say, the only way to end the guerrilla war is through Iraqi politics -- an arena that so far has been crippled by divisions between Shiite Muslims, whose coalition dominated the January elections, and Sunni Muslims, who are a minority in Iraq but form the base of support for the insurgency.

"I think the more accurate way to approach this right now is to concede that ... this insurgency is not going to be settled, the terrorists and the terrorism in Iraq is not going to be settled, through military options or military operations," Brig. Gen. Donald Alston, the chief U.S. military spokesman in Iraq, said last week, in a comment that echoes what other senior officers say.

"It's going to be settled in the political process."

end quotes

This Scott McClellan, with all the crap that boy can spew, with just that one mouth of his alone, that boy could fertilize a forty-acre field with his mouth in about five minutes, and equal a herd of two or three thousand bulls in the process!

I wonder how much of OUR TAX MONEY goes to that boy so that he can tell us lies all day long, and half the evening, as well?

Probably a couple of hundred thousand, with bonuses!

And here is Scott McClellan's version of democracy, in action:

"Guantanamo log details interrogation tactics used against 9/11 suspect"

Mon Jun 13, 1:19 PM ET

WASHINGTON (AFP) - A top Saudi terror suspect held at a US base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba was forcibly injected with fluids, grilled near military dogs and straddled by a female soldier, according to secret US logs published here.

Mohammed al-Qahtani was forcibly injected with three and a half bags of fluid after refusing food and water in late 2002 at the Guantanamo camp, according to US interrogation logs obtained by Time magazine and released Sunday.

The logs, parts of which are incomplete, detail measures used against a captive at the prison, many of which have been criticized by rights groups.

President George W. Bush said Wednesday he was ready to examine alternatives to the camp for "war on terror" detainees at Guantanamo after former president Jimmy Carter called for its closure.

Al-Qahtani was captured in Afghanistan in December 2001 and transported to Guantanamo.

US authorities then discovered he had been deported from Florida in August 2001 and believe he had sought entry to America to participate in the September 11, 2001 attacks, Time said.

The logs reveal that al-Qahtani was interrogated from early November to early January 2002-2003, during which 16 additional interrogation methods were approved by US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

At one point, al-Qahtani mounts a food-and-water strike and becomes so dehydrated that medics "forcibly administer fluids by IV (intravenous) drip," according to Time.

Al-Qahtani subsequently tells his interrogators he works for Al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden, before urinating in his pants.

After Rumsfeld approved the new interrogation measures on December 2, 2002, interrogators poured water over al-Qahtani, shaved his beard and head and forced him to stand for the US national anthem among other tactics.

He was also subjected to a drill known as an "Invasion of Space by a Female."

"He was laid out on the floor so I straddled him without putting my weight on him".

"He would then attempt to move me off of him by bending his legs in order to lift me off but this failed because the MPs were holding his legs down with their hands," one log entry states.

On December 7, al-Qahtani's condition deteriorated so badly, he was examined by two doctors.

Al-Qahtani's pulse was found to be "unusually slow."

An electrocardiogram, used to assess a heart condition, was taken, and he was hooked up to a heart monitor.

Over the next month al-Qahtani -- his condition improved -- was stripped nude and told to bark like a dog.

Pictures of scantily clad women were also hung around his neck.

The logs recount al-Qahtani saying he wanted to commit suicide.

Officials told Time most of the intelligence gleaned from the Saudi was recorded in other documents.

In a statement released later Sunday, the Pentagon offered no excuses for its interrogation techniques, saying al-Qahtani questioning followed "a very detailed plan" and that prevention of new attacks justified the means.

"Qahtanis interrogation during this period was guided by a very detailed plan and conducted by trained professionals motivated by a desire to gain actionable intelligence, to include information that might prevent additional attacks on America," the statement said.

In an interview with Fox News, partially released Sunday, Vice President Richard Cheney said there was "no plan to close Gitmo."

"I mean, these are terrorists for the most part."

"These are people that were captured in the battlefield of Afghanistan or rounded up as part of the Al-Qaeda network," the US vice president said in the interview due to be broadcast Monday.

Bush has said the US applies principles consistent with the Geneva Conventions to "unlawful combatants," subject to military necessity, at Guantanamo and elsewhere.

end quotes

Just what kind of a pack of perverts do we have down there in that Pentagon, anyway?

Forget Constitutional amendments to ban gay marriages!

What we really need is a Constitutional amendment to rid OUR government of these perverts that are running this country!

And whose daughter was that, that was straddling this guy?

Is that how you brought her up, or did you leave that upbringing to George W. Bush and his?

Just curious, of course!

[Livyjr]

Well, the power went off, down to my place, a lttle earlier this evening, probably a leg on a transformer, so a phase or two are gone, and the power with it!

There's progress for you!

OH!

OH!

We can't stop development!

No, no, no, no, no!

OH!

We can't hold back the town!

Well, okay, so now, we got no power, and it is cooking out there, and people live in cooped-up boxes out in hayfields, where the sun burns down, which is why some smart farmer all those years ago grew hay there, before he got too old to farm, and then was forced off the land by taxes to subsidize developers; one of whom took that land and jammed all these dressed-up boxes on it, where people, right now, tonight, as I type these words, are sweltering, because ALL their air conditioners going together burned out all our electricity!

I'm on the air here, because this computer is on a different electric company that is not so stupid and gluttonous as the one that I am on, the one trying to put thirty-five pounds worth of electricity into a 3-ounce paper bag!

GLOBALIZATION, IN ACTION!

WHY GO TO BAGHDAD TO EXPERIENCE POWER OUTAGES, WHEN IT CAN BE A DAILY OCCURRENCE IN YOUR OWN NEIGHBORHOOD, HERE, FOR THE SAME EXACT REASON, WHICH IS GREED AND IGNORANCE ALL DRESSED UP TOGETHER, AND OUT ON THE TOWN, AT OUR EXPENSE!

[Livyjr]

Well, for anyone interested in seeing the forces of nature unleashed up here in George Pataki's EMPIRE State of New York, go to http://www.timesunion.com/ for a nice picture of what is now a new mountain stream, or maybe river, that is flowing WEST, right through ALL the north-bound lanes of the Northway, which is the major north-south artery between Albany, New York, and Montreal, Canada, and as that brand-new river continues on its westerly course, all of what has been removed from the north-bound side, now covers the south-bound side, so that this major artery is now severed, in grand style, by Mother Nature, who rumor has it, George Pataki has now deemed an "environmental TAY-RIST", and according to the bits and pieces that seem to be leaking out, what I thought I heard was that Pataki believes that Whiteface Mountain is Mother Nature's son, and so, again, if I have this right, Pataki is going to have Whiteface Mountain flogged, for this act of Mother Nature in destroying the Northway, in a matter of hours, or less, sometime last night, when some four or more inches of rain fell on the Lake George area, as though it were somewhere down south in a Louisiana bayou, instead of nestled in the mountains in northern New York, where the relative humidity used to be on the low side!

Ah, progress!

"Mudslide forces Northway closure - 16-mile stretch in both directions between exits 23 and 25 to remain closed for days; detours set up on state routes 8 and 9"

By JOSHUA HURWIT and PAUL GRONDAHL, Staff writers, Albany, New York Times Union

Last updated: 12:13 p.m., Tuesday, June 14, 2005

A 16-mile stretch of the Northway between Exits 23 and 25 will be closed for days or even weeks after a mudslide Monday night brought on by heavy rains, the Warren County sheriff said this morning.

The slide around 9 p.m. blocked some 100 vehicles on the interstate highway, and about 40 cars, tractor trailers and buses were forced to back up a half-mile on the dark, rain-soaked highway, make a U-turn and detour along Route 9.

Sheriff Larry Cleveland said people were cooperative and no injuries were reported.

Horicon, Bolton Landing, Chestertown and Warrensburg bore the brunt of the bad weather, officials said, with about 40 residents displaced.

The American Red Cross sheltered 20 to 25 people in a local school.

"We don't have a damage assessment at this point," said Tom Harig of the Warren County Office of Emergency Services, speaking from a command post at the Bolton Fire Station on Route 9N.

In Bolton Landing, a water main ruptured, leaving an estimated 2,000 people without water, Harig said.

Residents without water should bring empty jugs to Veterans Memorial Park on Route 9N in Bolton Landing, where tankers will be stationed later today, he said.

On the Northway, both northbound lanes were washed out, and the two southbound lanes were littered with dirt and boulders.

The closure means about 13,000 vehicles in both directions will be routed onto local roads, mainly state Routes 8 and 9.

"This does not often happen, which speaks to the magnitude of the storm," said Peter Van Keuren, a spokesman for the state Department of Transportation.

"It's fairly major."

Warren County roads that remain closed include County Routes 10 and 11; Schroon River Road; Valley Woods Road; and Finkle Road.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

[Livyjr]

http://www.timesunion.com/

Ah, progress!

"Mudslide forces Northway closure - 16-mile stretch in both directions between exits 23 and 25 to remain closed for days; detours set up on state routes 8 and 9" 
 
By JOSHUA HURWIT and PAUL GRONDAHL, Staff writers, Albany, New York Times Union

Last updated: 12:13 p.m., Tuesday, June 14, 2005

A 16-mile stretch of the Northway between Exits 23 and 25 will be closed for days or even weeks after a mudslide Monday night brought on by heavy rains, the Warren County sheriff said this morning.

"This does not often happen, which speaks to the magnitude of the storm," said Peter Van Keuren, a spokesman for the state Department of Transportation.

"It's fairly major."

Well, let's see?

If engineers record data about rainfall, over time, to look for things like this, this "fairly" major rainfall event up there which just removed the New York State Northway between Albany, New York and Montreal, Canada from the inventory of America's functioning superhighways, and engineers note that something like this might have happened back in 1888, or maybe 1892, and that was considered to be part of what could in actuality be a five-hundred year cycle, with that being maybe the 400th year, then, I don't know, where does anyone think we might be, about 100 years later?

Or is that 100-year storm stuff really just a bunch of crap that engineers spew to stop development?

Oh, I'm so confused!

Maybe somebody really made the whole thing up, and there was no rainfall at all, and so, the Northway is really still open, and it was just some of them mean environmentalists that just want us to think that over the last so many years, up here, we have built the biggest house of cards ever attempted by any pack of fools anywhere on this earth in the last ten or twenty thousand years, just before the wind starting kicking up ....

And it's not even the middle of June, either!

Boy, what is August going to be?

[Livyjr]

I don't know if people think about this at all, and if you have never been to the ocean in a storm, or Lake Ontario, or Lake Superior, and you don't live near water, then, certainly, you wouldn't think about it, but in China, right now, they have a project going on the Yangtze River that is going to create an impoundment that will be, if my information is correct, as big as Lake Superior, which if memory serves, is where the ore boat Edmund Fitzgerald went down in a storm!

Now, to the younger people in here, that name probably means nothing, and I guess it shouldn't, since it was just an isolated incident, just another ship going down on a great big lake that can get nasty enough during a storm to take down a big ore boat like the Edmund Fitzgerald!

The glaciers made Lake Superior, it is said, and Lake Superior now "makes" all that area around there, since in nature, water controls climate!

Of course, the glacier was what, ten thousand years ago, or so, which means that area has had ten thousand years or so, to adjust!

This new Lake Superior that they are building in China, of course, that has never before existed, and so, the weather to be associated with that new great lake in that place has also never existed, before, either, which means that no one knows what it will be, OTHER THAN TOTALLY UNLIKE WHAT HAD BEEN THERE FOR THE LAST TEN THOUSAND YEARS OR SO, AGO, and so .....

And I'm surprised that people never put two-and-two together with respect to the impact water has on weather!

What is that, earth science?

8th grade?

9th grade?

Rocket science?

[Livyjr]

I have been studying American history on and off now since I was a child, since back then, children were expected to know something about America, or at least OUR own small part of it, which was OUR community, and how that community came into being, and what place that community played in society, here in OUR America, and accordingly, where my place was to be in that scheme of things, and so, a long time ago, now, I first read the words of the United States Constitution, and then, I took an oath to protect and defend that Constitution, of course, and now, all these years later, after a lot of real careful and non-hasty thought on the matter, I really have to wonder at this crowd down there in Washington, D.C. that is occupying both houses of OUR Congress, like boll weevils occupying a cotton field, or rats occupying a grain bin!

What country, exactly, do they think they are in, I wonder, and more to the point, what have they done with OUR Constitution, because that Constitution would never recognize any of them, as legitimate, I don't think, if it were not being held hostage somewhere, like in the money bags that patrol the halls of Congress down there, with United States Senators dangling from gold chains stretched across broad, expansive, well-fed guts, like a bunch of watchfobs, or curios ....

"Private Groups Often Fund Senators' Trips"

By JESSE J. HOLLAND, Associated Press Writer

1 hour, 44 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - Senators traveled to exotic foreign capitals and fabulous resort towns with beaches and golf courses in 2004 — all in the name of business of course and rarely on their own dime.

One such trip was taken by Senate Minority Whip Richard Durbin, D-Ill., who went to Cape Town, South Africa, for an international affairs conference, according to the Senate's financial disclosure forms.

That trip was paid for by the Chicago Council on Foreign Relations and the South African Institute of International Affairs.

Sen. Mike Enzi, chairman of the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee, was reimbursed for travel expenses for himself and his wife, Diana, for a speaking engagement in Munich, Germany, for the German Marshall Fund of Washington.

Sen. Christopher J. Dodd, D-Conn., ranking Democrat on the Senate Rules Committee, reported travel to Coral Gables, Fla., for three days in February 2004 to participate in the annual U.S.-Spain Council conference.

The trip was funded by the council.

And Sen. Debbie Stabenow, D-Mich., reimbursed the Aspen Institute Congressional Program for travel, lodging and meal expenses for a May trip to Barcelona, Spain.

Congressional travel has been getting more scrutiny lately, in part because of the controversy surrounding House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, following allegations that a lobbyist paid for some of his trips, which is not allowed.

Other private groups, however, can fund travel, which at times can include lavish meals and golf outings.

Republicans also hit the road.

Foreign Relations chair Richard Lugar, R-Ind., went on seven trips paid for by the Aspen Institute think tank, including to Hawaii; Cancun, Mexico; Barcelona; Venice, Italy, and Geneva, Switzerland.

Lugar is a member of that think tank.

Samaritan's Purse picked up Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist's air transportation to Chad, Sudan and Kenya on a fact-finding mission last August, and his meals there.

The complaint that the Senate is a "millionaires' club" has some basis in fact, at least among the leaders.

Frist reported blind trusts — where the owner has no knowledge of where the money's being invested — worth between $7 million to $35 million.

The income from the largest blind trust brought in $1 million to $5 million, his paperwork shows.

Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid of Nevada didn't have as much as Frist in the bank, but made $1 million to $5 million in 2004 by selling a piece of property in Las Vegas and a 47 percent interest in an adjoining property.

He also listed as major assets municipal and school district bonds worth between $895,026 and $2,101,000 and a pension plan stock in oil, medical, technology, banking and other companies worth between $383,047 and $1,552,000.

The financial disclosure forms also gives the public a rare glimpse inside senators' personal lives.

For example, Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., collected another $2,376,716 in royalties for her memoirs, "Living History," making her total take so far from the book near $8.7 million.

Under reporting rules, former President Clinton, as a spouse of a senator, is only required to report that he received more than $1,000 in payments for his best-selling autobiography "My Life," though published reports have said he inked a deal worth $10 million to $12 million with publisher Alfred A. Knopf.

Sen. Barbara Boxer, D-Calif., reported a $15,938 advance to write the suspense novel she's working on, "A Time to Run," about an activist senator who does battle with right-wing ideologues.

Also in the publishing business was Sen. Robert Byrd, D-W.Va., who reported a $60,000 advance payment from W.W. Norton & Co. of New York, a book publishing company.

W.W. Norton also paid for Byrd to take several trips to promote the book "Losing America: Confronting a Reckless and Arrogant Presidency," in which Byrd argues that President George W. Bush "is in a class by himself — ineptitude supreme."

There will be at least one movie star in the Senate: Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., will appear in the summer movie "The Wedding Crashers" starring Owen Wilson and Vince Vaughn, with his payments directed to select charities, according to his form.

Some other interesting tidbits that showed up in this year's disclosures include the fact that Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., has bought his brother's house — former President John Kennedy's Hyannisport home — and is renting it out to other family members.

Kennedy paid his niece, Caroline Kennedy Schlossberg and her husband $3 million for the property, which is located next to his property on the Kennedy family compound.

Sen. Kennedy also reported between $50,000-100,000 in rental income.

Also on the real estate front, Dodd reported ownership in a cottage in County Galway, Ireland, that's worth somewhere between $100,000 and $250,000.

Sen. Herb Kohl, D-Wis., and ranking member on Senate Aging Committee, listed his NBA basketball team, the Milwaukee Bucks, as worth more than $50 million.

A more specific number comes from Forbes magazine, which last year valued the Bucks at $199 million in its annual survey, putting it last in the league.

[Livyjr]

Center for the Study of the Presidency - 2001 Maibach-Madison Award Runner-Up

"James Madison and the Role of Republicanism, Federalism, and Checks and Balances in the United States"

http://www.geocities.com/crgeidner/madison.html
___________________

Christopher R. Geidner
Youngstown State University
Youngstown, Ohio
___________________

From his compelling argument for America's republican form of government to his vigorous defense of its divided and federal systems of governing, James Madison brought to the United States of America some of its most important attributes.

At the same time, however, many of the significant details of his conceptions have suffered in the 212 years since the Constitution's ratification.

Looking at Madison's ideas on each of the three branches of the national government and the role of the people and states in its organization, the substantial value and timeliness of his arguments are quickly apparent.

Madison’s understanding of America’s government rested upon a strong belief in the people, in general, and an even stronger belief in the people’s chosen representatives.

A major part of his analysis and persuasion in The Federalist Papers was that one of the Constitution’s greatest gifts to democracy was that it controlled the "public passions" of the people through its use of republican and federalist principles and co-equal branches.

Changes or proposed changes in each of those three branches, however, act to increase the influence of public passions upon America.

From the direct election of Senators through the 17th Amendment to proposals calling for the elimination of the Electoral College to acts of judicial review declaring national laws unconstitutional, Madison's delicate balance has been greatly disturbed.

In 1913, the United States adopted the 17th Amendment, which called for the election of Senators directly by the people, rather than through the filter of the state legislatures.

The change encourages the passions of the people and increases the control those passions hold over the Congress and its legislation, "ends" in direct contrast with Madison's goals.

In Federalist No. 51, Madison discussed the importance of the differences in methods of election between the two houses of Congress.

He wrote that the distinction is of the utmost importance in maintaining the balance of power within the national government because the legislature "necessarily predominates," so therefore its powers are split into two dissimilar branches with "different modes of election."

This aim to remove from the Senate the public passions that could overtake the House is further illustrated by the division of the Senate into thirds for electoral purposes.

A passionate faction would need to maintain electoral control for a period of six years in order to affect all of the Senators' elections.

While this provision is still in effect, the 17th Amendment clearly weakens Madison's intent for the Senate to be protected from the people's passions.

Also, the amendment discouraged federalism because it removed the state power and interest in the Congress.

As Madison discussed in Federalist No. 39, "The House of Representatives will derive its power from the people of America ... The Senate, on the other hand, will derive its powers from the states ..."

Before the passage of the 17th Amendment, each state government in America's federalist system had an important role to play at the national level: the selection of its state’s two Senators.

This point was argued by Madison in Federalist No. 62 when he gave his examination of the Senate.

Since the passage of the Amendment, however, state governments have had no role in the national legislature.

The delicate balance of the nation’s republic was thus doubly struck by the passage of the 17th Amendment.

Nearly 100 years later an election struck this nation that could just as greatly tug on its federalist and republican nature.

The 2000 presidential election has tested many areas of national and state governments, including the role of the Electoral College in those elections.

Madison likely would fear the implications of changes to this system because just as with Senate elections prior to the 17th Amendment, the Electoral College is tightly woven into America’s web of republicanism and federalism.

The elimination of the Electoral College and the direct election of the president were called for by Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton and others in the days after the conclusion of the contested election.

Removing the power from state legislatures to devise the method for choosing its state’s electors would greatly weigh down in favor of the national government in federalist terms.

This explicit constitutional grant of authority to the state legislatures would be removed, and the power for choosing the president would become a national, rather than a federal, decision.

In addition, federalism would take a second hit from any proposal that called for the direct election of the president.

The compromise so hard earned between the large states and the small states’ delegates in Philadelphia would be eliminated in terms of the presidency.

The federalist principle that created the differing makeup of the chambers of Congress was applied to the election of the presidency in order that the small states would have some say, as an equal state in the union, in the selection of the president.

In Federalist No. 49, Madison argues against a proposal that called for Constitutional conventions whenever there was a disagreement among the branches.

In examining this issue, he expounds upon the importance of removing decisions from the people directly, and instead placing such decisions with their chosen representatives.

The same analysis applies to the "appeals to the people" discussed by Madison in Federalist No. 49 as to Sen. Clinton's proposal for the removal of the Electoral College.

The abolition of the Electoral College would place both houses of Congress and the Presidency at the whims of the same passions.

This is not far removed from Madison's fears in Federalist No. 49.

"The passions, therefore, not the reason, of the public would sit in judgment."

"But it is the reason, alone, of the public, that ought to control and regulate the government."

The balance has not, however, only been weighted in favor of people's passions against republicanism and in favor of a national government against federalism, but also in favor of one branch over the others.

This third un-balancing act has taken place in the Judiciary.

In the past 15 years, the United States Supreme Court often has reviewed the legitimacy of acts of the legislative branch, on 30 occasions striking down sections of Congressional legislation or entire acts of Congress as unconstitutional.

The use of judicial review over Congressional acts not vetoed by the president places the nation's Judiciary above its once co-equal branches, a result Madison disdained.

While Madison did not discuss the matter of judicial review at depth in The Federalist Papers, it is clear that he believed the three branches of the government were to be co-equals.

He stated in Federalist No. 51, "Each department should have a will of its own ..." and be able to "resist encroachments of the others."

Some scholars have pointed to statements in various Constitutional debates and in The Federalist Papers to suggest that Madison may have felt otherwise.

This "co-equal" opinion, however, is by far the most consistent opinion expressed by Madison on the matter throughout The Federalist Papers and in later published works.

Madison clarified his opinion on judicial review in June 1789 in the first session of the First Congress:

"If the constitutional boundary of either (department) be brought into question, I do not see that any one of these independent departments has more right than another to declare their sentiments on that point."

Madison left no uncertainty, however, as to his dismay at the Court's potential use of national judicial review in a 1788 letter to John Brown, a friend.

Madison wrote that the Judiciary having the final authority on a law's constitutionality "makes the Judiciary paramount in fact to the Legislature, which was never intended and could never be proper."

James Madison's careful weighing of the many competing interests in the structure of the nation's government is the most important contribution any individual made to the richness of the Constitution.

Madison had neither Alexander Hamilton's zeal for the nation's least democratic institutions nor Thomas Jefferson's faith in democracy as the healer of America's problems.

He was a federalist in the truest sense of the word, praising the careful balance sought and achieved in the Constitution between states and the national government.

He believed that a republican government of checks and balances carefully weighing many competing interests would best achieve a long-lasting democracy for America.

These beliefs were successfully explained and justified through his essays in The Federalist Papers.

These warnings from the waning days of 1787 through the spring of 1788, along with Madison's many later achievements, today challenge students of government and political leaders to utilize the wisdom from so many years ago.

Madison's hopes and fears for the nation were summed up in a few simple words as important today as they were when they were written in Federalist No. 10:

"Pure democrac[ies] ... have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths. ..."

"A republic ... promises the cure for which we are seeking."

Bibliography

Madison, J. Federalist Nos. 10, 39, 44, 49, 51, 62. Clinton Rossiter, ed. The Federalist Papers. Middlesex, England: Mentor. 1961.

Madison, J. to John Brown. Oct. 12, 1788. Observations on the "Draught of a Constitution for Virginia." Gaillard Hunt, ed. The Writings of James Madison. New York: Putnam's Sons. 1904. Reprinted in Walter Murphy, ed. American Constitutional Interpretation. (2nd Ed.) New York: The Foundation Press. 1995.

Madison, J. to the first session of the First Congress. June 1789. Walter Murphy, ed., American Constitutional Interpretation. (2nd Ed.) New York: The Foundation Press. 1995.

[Livyjr]

Center for the Study of the Presidency - 2001 Maibach-Madison Award Runner-Up

"James Madison and the Role of Republicanism, Federalism, and Checks and Balances in the United States"

http://www.geocities.com/crgeidner/madison.html
___________________

Christopher R. Geidner
Youngstown State University
Youngstown, Ohio
___________________

From his compelling argument for America's republican form of government to his vigorous defense of its divided and federal systems of governing, James Madison brought to the United States of America some of its most important attributes.

At the same time, however, many of the significant details of his conceptions have suffered in the 212 years since the Constitution's ratification.

Looking at Madison's ideas on each of the three branches of the national government and the role of the people and states in its organization, the substantial value and timeliness of his arguments are quickly apparent.

Madison’s understanding of America’s government rested upon a strong belief in the people, in general, and an even stronger belief in the people’s chosen representatives.

A major part of his analysis and persuasion in The Federalist Papers was that one of the Constitution’s greatest gifts to democracy was that it controlled the "public passions" of the people through its use of republican and federalist principles and co-equal branches.

Madison's hopes and fears for the nation were summed up in a few simple words as important today as they were when they were written in Federalist No. 10:

"Pure democrac[ies] ... have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths. ..."

"A republic ... promises the cure for which we are seeking."

And somehow, this following story just seems to fit in here, right under these words above about pure democracies and their violent deaths ....

"Private Eyes Fear Limits On Information Access"

By Jonathan Krim, Washington Post Staff Writer

Tue Jun 14, 1:00 AM ET

Private investigators are working to blunt legislation that cracks down on the active marketplace for Social Security numbers, telling Congress that restricting access to the numbers will hurt their business and hamper their investigations.

Several bills are moving through the Capitol to prevent identity thieves from getting Social Security numbers to gain access to consumers' financial accounts.

In the past year, the Social Security numbers of tens of millions of Americans have been exposed through personal data being lost, stolen or hacked.

But private investigators contend that the rush to protect privacy goes too far and would damage their ability to deliver valuable services, such as locating people who skip out on debts, commit fraud or want to avoid testifying in court.

In a lobbying blitz, trade associations representing roughly 40,000 licensed private investigators are exhorting their members to "please do something, or we will have nothing" by writing to Congress and state legislatures, many of which also are moving to curb the availability of Social Security numbers.

Representatives of private investigator groups discussed lobbying strategy last month with several data brokers -- companies that buy and sell personal information -- at a meeting hosted by ChoicePoint Inc., one of the country's largest such firms.

According to a summary of the meeting circulated to online news groups frequented by private investigators, "PIs and data provider companies are committed to a massive lobbying effort to educate our legislators on the ill effects of truncating data to licensed investigators."

But the investigators also are worried about large data brokers themselves, which routinely buy and sell personal data but have taken their own steps to restrict access to Social Security numbers in the wake of breaches at their firms.

Two of the largest, ChoicePoint and LexisNexis Group, now sell only partial Social Security numbers to several types of businesses, including private investigators.

"We think they can do their jobs without" full Social Security numbers, said James Lee, chief marketing officer of ChoicePoint.

He confirmed most of the account of the lobbying meeting.

Private investigators also have other ways of profiting from their access to such information.

Some have ongoing subscriptions for data from brokers and maintain Web sites offering to resell the data to the public.

Most of the subscription contracts prohibit such resale, and many data brokers now are requiring private investigators and other clients to recertify their credentials.

Brian P. McGuinness, president of the Baltimore-based National Council of Investigation and Security Services, said the large data brokers that decided to limit private investigators to partial Social Security numbers were being "a bit disingenuous," and were simply trying to stave off stricter regulation by Congress.

Instead, he said, the policy will make it harder for private eyes to distinguish between people who have the same or similar names.

McGuinness said his group is hoping for an exception to limits on Social Security numbers similar to one investigators enjoy in a 1994 law that restricts the sale of driver's license data.

"There are some problem children in every profession," McGuinness said, referring to investigators who indiscriminately resell data.

His organization supports legislation that would prohibit reselling of Social Security numbers to the general public online, he said.

Other information brokers are not truncating Social Security numbers for private investigators.

"I think they are an extension of law enforcement," said Terry Kilburn, chief operating officer of Tracers Information Specialists Inc. of Florida, which also advertises data available to the public on its Web site.

He said that because his firm has amassed and combined data from a variety of public and private sources over many years -- including mega-brokers such as ChoicePoint -- he is rarely bound by their resale restrictions.

For their part, the large data brokers say they support identity-theft legislation but are working quietly with banks and other financial services companies -- also the source of several recent breaches -- to shape the bills.

Most of the bills introduced would require that organizations notify customers if their information is breached, similar to a California law credited with forcing ChoicePoint and others to reveal their cases in recent months.

The industry supports the position of the head of the Federal Trade Commission, Deborah Platt Majoras, which is to limit the disclosure requirement to instances in which the organization believes the breach could result in identity theft[u].

[u]Privacy groups argue that such an exemption is a loophole, because firms might not always know if the breach could lead to theft and would have little incentive to say so.

The industry also wants one federal law that would supersede a potential patchwork of state laws.

Consumer groups support that approach only if the national bill is strong.

Other bills would provide incentives to the industry to encrypt data that they keep in storage, making it more difficult to use the information if it is lost or stolen.

end quote

Since George W. Bush has been president, this country has become quite a hateful, spiteful place, and somehow, reading about this sale of alleged "information", ABOUT US, by these BID-NESS people, seems to only serve to reinforce how dehumanizing this one guy's reign has been, here in OUR America, or have they tossed out that title and replaced it with something more accurate in description, like Maoist China, or Stalinist Russia, or Nazi Germany?

[Livyjr]

Center for the Study of the Presidency - 2001 Maibach-Madison Award Runner-Up

"James Madison and the Role of Republicanism, Federalism, and Checks and Balances in the United States"

http://www.geocities.com/crgeidner/madison.html
___________________

Christopher R. Geidner
Youngstown State University
Youngstown, Ohio
___________________

From his compelling argument for America's republican form of government to his vigorous defense of its divided and federal systems of governing, James Madison brought to the United States of America some of its most important attributes.

At the same time, however, many of the significant details of his conceptions have suffered in the 212 years since the Constitution's ratification.

Looking at Madison's ideas on each of the three branches of the national government and the role of the people and states in its organization, the substantial value and timeliness of his arguments are quickly apparent.

Madison’s understanding of America’s government rested upon a strong belief in the people, in general, and an even stronger belief in the people’s chosen representatives.

And in the end, of course, as brilliant as he might have been, or not, Mr. James Madison was nothing more than "ONE OF US", no more, or no less, and he would have been one of the first to state that, which is one of the things that I think would have made me favorably disposed towards James Madison, if we were to meet out there on the "street of life", somewhere, to have a chat about Life in OUR America today, as I experience it, versus any ideas that he might have had, way back then, about how it was going to be, SINCE HE DID NOT KNOW, AND NEVER PRETENDED THAT HE DID, despite these words of this young person above in this essay, that imply to the contrary, and I base that statement of mine on these words of Madison from way back then, that being 1787, down there in Philadelphia, during the Constitutional Convention that gave us OUR frame of government today, or something at least akin to it, anyway:

"In framing a system which we wish to last for ages, we should not lose sight of the changes which ages will produce!"

"An increase of population will of necessity increase the PROPORTION OF THOSE WHO WILL LABOR UNDER ALL THE HARDSHIPS OF LIFE, and secretly sigh for a more equal distribution of its blessings!"

"These may in time outnumber those who are placed above the feelings of indigence."

end quotes

"Power", said Madison, could then slide into the "hands of the numerous poor", rather than the few rich, and so, the question arose, during that Constitutional Convention, as to how to deal with this possibility, or eventuality, "on republican principles", and Madison's answer at that time, since he had no real idea as to what the future really would be, the same as we still don't, today, was to have a "body" in OUR government, OUR SENATE, that was to be "sufficiently respectable for its WISDOM AND VIRTUE" with an elective term of nine years to render it "stable", in Madison's view, which he thought, in his naivety, would provide a safeguard for LIBERTY, here in OUR America, today, 218 years later, when Madison's naivety is made apparent for all the candid world to see, especially with respect to OUR United States Senate today, FOR WHERE IN ALL OF THAT SUPPOSEDLY "AUGUST BODY" DOES ONE FIND ANYTHING APPROACHING EITHER WISDOM, OR VIRTUE, especially on the REPUBLICAN side of the "aisle", where this Frist, the "Capo de Tutti Capo", or "Boss of all Bosses" in the Senate, appears to be little more than just another "panderer" who wants to be the next president of OUR America, and so, is willing to prostrate himself before the likes of Karl Rove, in the hopes that Rove will "annoint" him, and then, make him be so!

Of course, after watching what Rove did with George W. Bush, maybe that is now what "wisdom" is, hooking your wagon to Karl Rove's star, but is that VIRTUE, as well?

Or is that too hard a question to ask these days, where virtue in politics, and especially OUR UNITED STATES SENATE is as outdated a concept as the DoDo bird is!

[Livyjr]

"In framing a system which we wish to last for ages, we should not lose sight of the changes which ages will produce!"

"An increase of population will of necessity increase the PROPORTION OF THOSE WHO WILL LABOR UNDER ALL THE HARDSHIPS OF LIFE, and secretly sigh for a more equal distribution of its blessings!"

"These may in time outnumber those who are placed above the feelings of indigence."

- James "Jemmy" Madison, circa 1787, somewhere in OUR America

James Madison, of course, can be quoted like people quote the Bible, to have it and him saying anything and everything under the sun, depending upon what one wants or needs his words to say, on their behalf, of course, and that is what the price of democracy really is, that everyone IS GOING TO HAVE AN OPINION, REGARDLESS OF STATION, and so, I am always leery of accepting any statements attributed to James Madison by others, that have him casting in any kind of concrete at all, anything Madison is supposed to have said that would "fix" OUR system of government into any mold, at all, and I say that because Madison was a believer himself in FIRST PRICIPLES, which was an extant political theory in place in OUR America in 1776 that said people can throw off their own governments, at will!

"When government is oppressive, cast it off and start anew!"

FIRST PRINCIPLES!

The Declaration of Independence!

The Constitutions of the original thirteen colonies, with their Bills of Rights made an intrinisc part of them - THIS GOVERNMENT SHALL NOT BE CAPABLE OF REPRESSING ITS CITIZENRY!

Thirteen different states, thirteen different Constitutions, all with the same declaration of intent, however - THE GOVERNMENT OF THIS STATE SHALL NOT BE CAPABLE OF REPRESSING ITS CITIZENRY, FOR ANY PURPOSES, TO INCLUDE PARTISAN POLITICS!

ESPECIALLY PARTISAN POLITICS!

And now, it is a different day and age, and Madison is gone, but since we are not, yet, anyway, then the problem is indeed OURS!

Should we remain a Federal Republic?

Or am I in fact too late in even suggesting that question?

[Livyjr]

Center for the Study of the Presidency - 2001 Maibach-Madison Award Runner-Up

"James Madison and the Role of Republicanism, Federalism, and Checks and Balances in the United States"

http://www.geocities.com/crgeidner/madison.html
___________________

Christopher R. Geidner
Youngstown State University
Youngstown, Ohio
___________________

From the direct election of Senators through the 17th Amendment to proposals calling for the elimination of the Electoral College to acts of judicial review declaring national laws unconstitutional, Madison's delicate balance has been greatly disturbed.

In 1913, the United States adopted the 17th Amendment, which called for the election of Senators directly by the people, rather than through the filter of the state legislatures.

The change encourages the passions of the people and increases the control those passions hold over the Congress and its legislation, "ends" in direct contrast with Madison's goals.

In Federalist No. 51, Madison discussed the importance of the differences in methods of election between the two houses of Congress.

He wrote that the distinction is of the utmost importance in maintaining the balance of power within the national government because the legislature "necessarily predominates," so therefore its powers are split into two dissimilar branches with "different modes of election."

This aim to remove from the Senate the public passions that could overtake the House is further illustrated by the division of the Senate into thirds for electoral purposes.

A passionate faction would need to maintain electoral control for a period of six years in order to affect all of the Senators' elections.

While this provision is still in effect, the 17th Amendment clearly weakens Madison's intent for the Senate to be protected from the people's passions.

Beware "political science" papers produced by THINK TANKS, when you don't know for certain who is PAYING them to think!

For that matter, beware me too!

I'm just an old man in here, so what can I know?

U.S. Constitution: Seventeenth Amendment
Seventeenth Amendment - Popular Election of Senators

Amendment Text

Clause 1. The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, elected by the people thereof, for six years; and each Senator shall have one vote.

The electors in each State shall have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the State legislatures.

Clause 2. When vacancies happen in the representation of any State in the Senate, the executive authority of each State shall issue writs of election to fill such vacancies: Provided That the legislature of any State may empower the executive thereof to make temporary appointments until the people fill the vacancies by election as the legislature may direct.

Clause 3. This amendment shall not be so construed as to affect the election or term of any Senator chosen before it becomes valid as part of the Constitution.

Annotations - Popular Election of Senators

The ratification of this Amendment was the outcome of increasing popular dissatisfaction with the operation of the originally established method of electing Senators.

As the franchise became exercisable by greater numbers of people, the belief became widespread that Senators ought to be popularly elected in the same manner as Representatives.

Acceptance of this idea was fostered by the mounting accumulation of evidence of the practical disadvantages and malpractices attendant upon legislative selection, such as deadlocks within legislatures resulting in vacancies remaining unfilled for substantial intervals, the influencing of legislative selection by corrupt political organizations and special interest groups through purchase of legislative seats, and the neglect of duties by legislators as a consequence of protracted electoral contests.

Prior to ratification, however, many States had perfected arrangements calculated to afford the voters more effective control over the selection of Senators.

State laws were amended so as to enable voters participating in primary elections to designate their preference for one of several party candidates for a senatorial seat, and nominations unofficially effected thereby were transmitted to the legislature.

Although their action rested upon no stronger foundation that common understanding, the legislatures generally elected the winning candidate of the majority, and, indeed, in two States, candidates for legislative seats were required to promise to support, without regard to party ties, the senatorial candidate polling the most votes.

As a result of such developments, at least 29 States by 1912, one year before ratification, were nominating Senators on a popular basis, and, as a consequence, the constitutional discretion of the legislatures had been reduced to little more than that retained by presidential electors. 1

Very shortly after ratification it was established that if a person possessed the qualifications requisite for voting for a Senator, his right to vote for such an officer was not derived merely from the constitution and laws of the State in which they are chosen but had its foundation in the Constitution of the United States. 2

Consistent with this view, federal courts declared that when local party authorities, acting pursuant to regulations prescribed by a party's state executive committee, refused to permit an African American, on account of his race, to vote in a primary to select candidates for the office of U.S. Senator, they deprived him of a right secured to him by the Constitution and laws, in violation of this Amendment. 3

An Illinois statute, on the other hand, which required that a petition to form, and to nominate candidates for, a new political party be signed by at least 25,000 voters from at least 50 counties was held not to impair any right under the Seventeenth Amendment, notwithstanding that 52 percent of the State's voters were residents of one county, 87 percent were residents of 49 counties, and only 13 percent resided in the 53 least populous counties. 4

Footnotes

[Footnote 1] 1 G. Haynes, The Senate of the United States 79-117 (1938).

[Footnote 2] United States v. Aczel, 219 F. 917 (D. Ind. 1915) (citing Ex parte Yarbrough, 110 U.S. 651 (1884)).

[Footnote 3] Chapman v. King, 154 F.2d 460 (5th Cir. 1946), cert. denied, 327 U.S. 800 (1946).

[Footnote 4] MacDougall v. Green, 355 U.S. 281 (1948), overruled on equal protection grounds in Moore v. Ogilvie, 394 U.S. 814 (1969). See Forssenius v. Harman, 235 F. Supp. 66 (E.D.Va. 1964) aff'd on other grounds, 380 U.S. 529 (1965), where a three-judge District Court held that the certificate of residence requirement established by the Virginia legislature as an alternative to payment of a poll tax in federal elections was an additional qualification to voting in violation of the Seventeenth Amendment and Art. I, Sec. 2.