Life in OUR America, Volume 2, The Livyjr Files Options

[Livyjr]

"We'll be a great country where the fabrics are made up of groups and loving centers."

- George W. Bush, Kalamazoo, Michigan; March 27, 2001

[Abu Beacon]

With that all said, it is my observation, after further experience with this thread, that we, the old folks in here, have two distinct advantages on OUR side:

a) we have come, in life, to realize that good things are not built overnight; and

we have the patience to wait!

And we also have sufficient experience of life now, to realize that good and bad exist at all times, and theorectically, at least, in all things, and so, it is up to us as to how we make these "qualities" manifest themselves, which is a direct function of how we put ourselves "forth" to the world, each moment of each and every day.

As to having people in here, jeffmoskin, THEY ARE!

They come in, they look around, sometimes they stay!

Change is a process, like all others, and it happens when and as it will.

Ours, I think, is to just keep stimulating that process by asking people to ask questions themselves!

And so, hence this thread!

LIVE!

Late-breaking.

Life, in OUR America!

I am one of these irrational individuals who frequently arises at 3:30 - 4:00 A.m.
Fortunately for me, my wife is already up and has a cup of of coffee and a slice of toast and marmalade waiting for me. This allows me to sit around for a while, get fully awake and think of things, past, present, and future. I tell myself that my best thoughts of the day come at this time. My problem is remembering them when I want to refer back to them. Par for the course. So what does this have to do with anything.

Well, this morning, my thoughts were really focused on a conversation on this thread recently. Livyjr, jeffmoskin, and I were writing about a person's views being based on their outlook on life. Livyjr established that as a very rationale reason why people think as they do. He is right on.

A phrase came into my mind this morning - " We are who we are because of who we were. " That is saying the same thing. Our life experiences establish our current thinking, our, views, our prejudices, our actions. jeffmoskin, who has an incredibly mature outlook on life and an ability to see deep into the news stories that make the rounds also knows this.

This is a thread that bears the stamp of Livyjr's personality. He welcomes other participants and so I have come aboard recently with a comment here and there.


In addition to " chewing " on a definite subject or news event as they happen, I would, with Livyjr's consent, also like to occasionally just write about random ideas and happenings as they come up. I say, " with Livyjr's consent " because I have no desire at all to change the flavor or personality of a thread which is very unique.

These postings I am referring to would be sort of open ended with new or different perspectives as I go along.

I sure make things as clear as mud, don't I?

Anyhow, let me know Livyjr, if this is something you would prefer not to happen on the Livyjr files.

My one thought for right now is this: ( not too original perhaps ). World War II, on which many of my life experiences are based was fought just about entirely with men and women who grew up during the depression, which by the way was the mother of all depressions as far as I am concerned. How did this shape their abilities, their ' code ', their feelings toward each other and toward the enemy? Did it make any difference at all? If my recall is correct, I believe there were in the vicinity of 7-8,000,000 troops in uniform between 1940-1946. I may be slightly off on these numbers. Regardless, it was a significant number of the American population as opposed to the small % of military personnel now in service as a ratio of the population. Almost EVERYONE had a close relative doing some military service. If Mr. Bush wants a real definition of patriotism, he should be consulting with people of that era, including those who were civilians, and not with his speech writers.

Livyjr, tell me your wishes and desires concerning this type of posting on a thread which is your baby.

A.B.

[jeffmoskin]

Livyjr, tell me your wishes and desires concerning  this type of posting on a thread which is your baby.

A.B.

Me too.

Also, FWIW, the ORIGINAL "Life in OUR America" thread has been closed! Maybe we maxed out the file size or something. Anyway, for any body wanting to access the now closed thread, here's the way:

1. at the top of this page click MEMBERS.

2. at the bottom of that page, in "Search Options and Filters" type Livyjr and click GO

3. click the bold Livyjr link found on the member list.

4. click "find member's posts"

5. click the rightmost ">>" icon. That will put you back to the beginning of the original thread. You can navigate from there.
Since the thread is "closed", you cannot use the "quote" or "reply" buttons. You can, however, still use the "copy/paste" method.

At the risk of sounding presumptuous, I think there were some posts very much worth saving.

BTW, thank you for your kind words about me, A.B.

I will periodically "bump" this post to keep it current.

[jeffmoskin]

And with respect to your statement about "making a difference", I just finished that book "The Power of Many" by Christian Crumlish, and in the concluding pages, he had this quote from a man named Howard Rheingold, as follows:

"It has taken 10 years of talk about 'new media' FOR A CRITICAL MASS to understand that every computer desktop, and now every pocket, IS A WORLDWIDE PRINTING PRESS, broadcasting station, place of assembly, and organizing tool - AND TO LEARN HOW TO USE THAT INFRASTRUCTURE TO AFFECT CHANGE!"

According to Rheingold, and here, I would say my own observations are somewhat in sync with this, "convergence", in here, is "reviving the town square, and producing political mini-parties."

In another observation made to the author of the book "The Power of Many", Rheingold said, and this is of direct relevance to this thread itself, and one of its underlying purposes, that:

"There has been a non-physical world for a very long time."

"There wouldn't have been a U.S. Revolution WITHOUT COMMITTEES OF CORRESPONDENCE."

Of interest as well is Rheingold's observation that "the Protestant Reformation was a vitual world in many ways, BUILT AROUND THE PRINTING PRESS," because Gutenberg's Bible ushered in the era THAT DEVOLVED CONTROL OVER THAT ANCIENT TEXT and distributed it, OPENING UP THE REALM OF DISCUSSION AND INTERPRETATION to literate people in all the written languages of Europe, and eventually, the world.

SO!

With that all said, it is my observation, after further experience with this thread, that we, the old folks in here, have two distinct advantages on OUR side:

a) we have come, in life, to realize that good things are not built overnight; and

we have the patience to wait!

And we also have sufficient experience of life now, to realize that good and bad exist at all times, and theorectically, at least, in all things, and so, it is up to us as to how we make these "qualities" manifest themselves, which is a direct function of how we put ourselves "forth" to the world, each moment of each and every day.

As to having people in here, jeffmoskin, THEY ARE!

They come in, they look around, sometimes they stay!

Change is a process, like all others, and it happens when and as it will.

Ours, I think, is to just keep stimulating that process by asking people to ask questions themselves!

And so, hence this thread!

LIVE!

Late-breaking.

Life, in OUR America!

And for more on Mr. Rheingold:

http://inthesetimes.com/comments.php?id=414_0_1_0_M

http://www.edge.org/documents/questions/q2....html#rheingold

Thanks for the link, Livyjr. But Mr. Rheingold goes on to say some words that are disturbing to me.


"Today, a small number of broadband Internet providers, such as Comcast and Viacom, are pushing for regulations that would enable them to pick and choose the content that travels over their part of the network. The courts also are coming to bear in this fight, as companies work to extend copyright far beyond its original intent and establish digital rights schemes that make it difficult to produce or distribute digital content not authorized by the entertainment industry.

"The consolidation of media ownership in the hands of a small number of individuals or cartels—who exchange political funding for legislative and regulatory favors—is being fought by organizations such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation. But activists who have not been involved in technology or media issues need to join in this battle, because communication media under dispute are profoundly political tools. In coming decades, Internet-based media will exert more and more influence over what people know and believe and how they can organize and assemble for collective action."

We cannot allow the greedy corporations to throw an electronic monkey wench into this new electronic printing press.

[Abu Beacon]

Thanks for the link, Livyjr. But Mr. Rheingold goes on to say some words that are disturbing to me.
"Today, a small number of broadband Internet providers, such as Comcast and Viacom, are pushing for regulations that would enable them to pick and choose the content that travels over their part of the network. The courts also are coming to bear in this fight, as companies work to extend copyright far beyond its original intent and establish digital rights schemes that make it difficult to produce or distribute digital content not authorized by the entertainment industry.

"The consolidation of media ownership in the hands of a small number of individuals or cartels—who exchange political funding for legislative and regulatory favors—is being fought by organizations such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation. But activists who have not been involved in technology or media issues need to join in this battle, because communication media under dispute are profoundly political tools. In coming decades, Internet-based media will exert more and more influence over what people know and believe and how they can organize and assemble for collective action."

We cannot allow the greedy corporations to throw an electronic monkey wench into this new electronic printing press.

The internet has the potential for doing more good for humanity than anything ever invented IMHO. The flip side is also obvious. It can be, as jeffmoskin rightly observes, an equally powerful force for misleading. That is why we all have to be ever diligent, never naive.

Greedy corporations indeed. Arm in arm with greedy politicians. What a combination.

Thanks for a perceptive post.

A.B.

[Livyjr]

Well, this morning, my thoughts were really focused on a conversation on this thread recently.

Livyjr, jeffmoskin, and I were writing about  a person's views being based on their outlook on life.

Livyjr established that as a very rational reason why people think as they do.

He is right on.

A phrase came into my mind this morning - " We are who we are because of who we were. " 

That is saying the same thing.

Our life experiences establish our current thinking, our, views, our prejudices, our actions.

jeffmoskin, who has an incredibly mature outlook on life and an ability to see deep into the news stories that make the rounds also knows this.

This is a thread that bears the stamp of Livyjr's personality.

He welcomes other participants and so I have come aboard recently with a comment here and there.

In addition to " chewing " on a definite subject or news event as they happen, I would, with Livyjr's consent, also like to occasionally just write about random ideas and happenings as they come up.

I say, " with Livyjr's consent " because I have no desire at all to change the flavor or  personality of a thread which is very unique.

These postings I am referring to would be sort of open ended with new or different  perspectives as I go along.

I sure make things as clear as mud, don't I?

Anyhow, let me know Livyjr, if this is something you would prefer not to happen on the Livyjr files.

Livyjr, tell me your wishes and desires concerning  this type of posting on a thread which is your baby.

A.B.

A.B., I am a believer that things happen, as they happen!

When the teacher is ready, a student appears!

When a student is ready, a teacher appears!

A.B., let us face it!

Your generation is passing, so that your time to talk is now, while you are here among us.

When I started this thread, it was AS A RESULT of a lot of things, maybe more than it was FOR, or to do anything, at all.

Part of the impetus was that Harvard History Professor telling me that history is not "democratic" that I talked about back in Volume I of this thread.

I took that as an insult, in some ways, and as a challenge in other ways.

And so, we have this thread!

So, yes, A.B., I think you should speak, when you have something on your mind, and this is a good place to leave behind your words and thoughts, as this thread has been enduring.

And I think those thoughts will blend right in, myself.

jeffmoskin came in here to ask me why I was talking to myself, and I told him that I was waiting for him to come and make it a dialogue, and so, he has remained, in what I consider a "guest expositor" slot, for want of a better description, and you would be one as well, I think, A.B., and a welcome one as is jeffmoskin.

And I think it would be "good" for the content in here, the balance, the "mix", to have some of your recollections brought in here, for people to read and consider!

After all, how much truer American history can you get, than that?

[Livyjr]

Thanks for the link, Livyjr.

But Mr. Rheingold goes on to say some words that are disturbing to me.

"Today, a small number of broadband Internet providers, such as Comcast and Viacom, are pushing for regulations that would enable them to pick and choose the content that travels over their part of the network."

"The courts also are coming to bear in this fight, as companies work to extend copyright far beyond its original intent and establish digital rights schemes that make it difficult to produce or distribute digital content not authorized by the entertainment industry."

We cannot allow the greedy corporations to throw an electronic monkey wench into this new electronic printing press.

If you think on it, jeffmoskin, there is always a move on to quash and suppress "free dialogue" between citizens in times of repression and tyranny!

In the days before the American Revolution, British troops were always on the look-out for printing presses in the hands of the "rabble", which was our forefathers in liberty, and when they found those presses, they would smash them.

The Nazis had their Gestapo out, triangulating radio transmitter sites, to smash them, and their operators.

Now, the internet has become a "threat", and it may well be suppressed, and us with it, but there is one school of thought which says that if really repressive regimes in other parts of the world have not been able to totally suppress the use of this medium as a tool of communication between ordinary persons such as ourselves in those repressive nations, that it will be very difficult for the American government to suppress it totally as well, although that school of thought admits to the possibility of this present incumbent government trying to do so, regardless of the cost of that effort.

The real issue seems to be one of "timing", as much as anything, with respect to the suppression issue, and this particular forum might just prove to be one hard bug to squash!

If you go to some certain page of this forum, you will find a list of who is in here besides us, and as I recall, one of the names on that list was Senator Charles Schumer of New York.

So, I think some kind of critical mass has been reached in here, at least, so as to afford us some continued hope for the future in here.

In "The Power of Many", there is the following quote, which I think bears scutiny in this thread:

"By themselves, blogs don't create communities any more than Usenet did or e-mail would."

"They represent, however, a great leap forward in the ease of people expressing themselves, communicating, and meeting each other on-line."

"AS A RESULT, they are a critical enabling technology for the kind of real-world impact that concerns me in this book."

"In fact, blogs are just the best current tool that supports freer personal expression, 'disintermediating' the mass-broadcast middleman that has dominated global communication in the previous century and supplementing (if not replacing) it with people-to-people communications channels that will eventually yield their own media forms ....."

end quotes

And it is this "disintermediating" that has me interested, jeffmoskin, as that is where the backlash will come from, if one is indeed to come, and for this reason:

"One of the great buzzwords of the Internet age is 'disintermediation', WHICH MEANS REMOVING THE MONOPOLY OF A MEDIA ELITE CLASS OVER THE INTERPRETATION OF INFORMATION!"

A media elite class!

And they are getting threatened by us, and in a big way, too!

But I am thinking, jeffmoskin, that we have suddenly gone past a critical point, right in here, with the start of Volume II of "Life in OUR America", and in this forum as well, which has lasted this initial period of time WITHOUT the election as a focus, as was the case with the John Kerry forum.

And so!

Whatever it is to be, I think that we shall be right there as it happens, or tries to, anyway, and I think that we will recognize attempts to suppress this medium when they are still small, and so, perhaps we can head them off at the pass!

Whatever, it is going to be an adventure, of that I am sure, and I am glad to be a particpant, to be truthful.

It is as if I have lived my life just waiting for this moment to arrive!

[CeilidhSeisuns]

[quote=Livyjr,Feb 13 2005, 12:14 AM]
Isn't it really, really difficult for us who down deep want absolutely nothing less than the best for and FROM our country to read Livyjr's true accounts of the stories behind the stories?

Difficult, yes, but to not believe what we know is going on would be the height of ostrich behavior.

Example: Livyjr mentions above, some observations I made concerning the ugly and evil things President Nixon was caught doing and which led to his impeachment.

For those younger members on this forum, who are unaware of all this, just go to Google and type in Millhouse Nixon.

There is much to learn.

A.B.

[/quote]

Younger people in America are not taught about Millhouse Nixxon, A.B., according to my own surveys of younger people on that subject, BUT .....

WE, you, A.B., jeffmoskin, and me; WE WERE ALL THERE AS IT HAPPENED, and so, we saw American history being made!

In fact, we were a living part of that history!

To me, home from Viet Nam by that time, I thought that the Millhouse Nixxon business had finally pierced through this "VEIL OF HYPE" that has come to surround and characterize modern-day presidents, and especially this present incumbent, like a nimbus, or an aura!

"AMERICAN PRESIDENTS ARE NOT GODS; NOR ARE THEY GODLIKE!"

They are mortals like us!

That is why we give them ONLY four years at a time in which to be in that high office!

It is OUR high office, after all!

And now, we are back to the "CULT OF THE PRESIDENT" again, in spades!

Young people just don't know the story, A.B.; they weren't there, and the story just never got handed down!

And curious that, eh!

[/quote]



I was there too.

I just had my first born when the "Pentagon Papers" were leaked to the press, and i didn't really understand what it all meant. I didn't know who Ellsburg was, but all my friends were talking him, what he wrote and the impact on the presidency it was likely to have. Weird thing was, some how the Wtergate burglary completely escaped my attention until the hearings got started and was being televised. that's when i discovered PBS.

FYI: Last summer sometime, I purchased the PBS production of WaterGate Plus 30 DVD - I had watched the documentary when it was broadcast on KQED, but it is really a dynamite and very comprehensive historical account of all those events and all the players. Highly recommend to all.

[Livyjr]

You are in a tough spot, Livyjr.

I may have a few years on you, but I think in many ways you have experienced a lot more learning in your years than I.

As you said at the onset, WE ARE HISTORY.

And what we are writing here is the story of OUR America as it has played out during our lives, with occasional reflections on the history that occurred before us which we can now access at the click of a mouse.

What a miracle.

"And what we are writing here is the story of OUR America as it has played out during our lives, with occasional reflections on the history that occurred before us which we can now access at the click of a mouse!"

jeffmoskin, here, right above, in your simple eloquence, is the truth of this matter in here; that what we are writing in here is indeed the story of OUR America, AS IT HAS PLAYED OUT, or unfolded, during our own lives, and for us, that "history" has had quite a span, starting with A.B., and then yourself in the middle, and then me, as the next generation past A.B.'s.

Wars, depressions, hopes, dreams!

The whole of the human condition it would seem, and all in the space of a lifetime!

And the miracle is this medium!

Back in October of 1988, I was at the studios of TV Channel 13 in Menands, New York, in my capacity as a county health officer, and I was talking to a TV news anchor who later that night was going to destroy my career as a public health professional, and we were talking about "control" over communications, and essentially how I had none at all, while this TV anchor had it all, and intended to use that power against me, for her benefit!

Very, very hard and callous she was, and cut-throat to boot, which is what happens to you in that business, it seems!

My exact words to her were that "he who controls communications, controls; and he who controls communications absolutely, controls absolutely"; and that is the truth, and always has been; hence the absolute control of media by absolutist governments!

In a post above, A.B. said that as people, as human beings, we like to, or have a tendency to think good of our leaders, which has us belieivng that they are operating with the good of us all in mind, which oftentimes, I think, is quite far from the truth, at least up here where I am in OUR America.

I think the same goes for people in the media who are in charge of what gets put out for dissemination, BY US, as the "news".

I think we have a tendency to believe that these people are independent from local politics, and that because of this, that they are not biased and prejudiced, when that IS IN FACT THE CASE, that they are very biased, and self-interested, which leads to and feeds the bias.

In fact, in my case, the use of the media by the local politicians to "take me out" was both skillful, by them, and necessary, so as to be able to destroy my credibility, which was my "reputation" as an engineer!

If the media say something, the populace tends to believe them, and so, the local politicians have people in the media, including radio, TV, and newspapers; "shills", in essence, who will do their personal bidding, for future rewards and favors, such as continued access to the "inside" story, and so, these media sources remain quite tractable, to them, the local politicians, and so can be "used" to put out complete falsehoods as "news" stories.

And at that time, 1988, their control of the media where I live was literally absolute!

And that was still the case in 2001 when the "psychiatric takedown" attempt went down!

Not one media outlet in my area would say a word about it!

As if it had never happened!

And that is a necessary element for tyrranical and repressive governments to exist; this absolute lock on what can get disseminated at all in the local community, especially when it would be news, such as this "psychiatric takedown" of a well-known and respected public health engineer, by the same "authorities" who this engineer had been besting in state supreme court over issues of corruption in the "authorities".

SO!

Quite a turn-around in fortunes, here, jeffmoskin, is my thought, anyway, and without those experiences, I might not have anything at all to say in here, or more importantly, a compelling reason to be coming in here to say anything at all, now that the elections are indeed over.

In just that short amount of time, from 1988 to the present, the whole concept of "communications" has literally been turned on its ear, and to be very truthful, to me, it is way past time.

DISINTERMEDIATION!

Cutting out the elite class that has been controlling the dissemination of information, here in OUR America!

And I am for that!

Hence this thread!

Volume II!

Lfe in OUR America!

[Livyjr]

I was there too. 

I just had my first born when the "Pentagon Papers" were leaked to the press, and I didn't really understand what it all meant.

I didn't know who Ellsburg was, but all my friends were talking him, what he wrote and the impact on the presidency it was likely to have. 

Weird thing was, somehow the Watergate burglary completely escaped my attention until the hearings got started and was being televised.

That's when I discovered PBS.   

First of all, CeilidhSeisuns, welcome, for many reasons, part of which is your name, which takes me back to many wonderful months in beautiful County Clare, and the west coast generally, of Ireland, and the wild Celtic music in wee places like Doolin!

And then, thank you for your recollections on this period of time; and I hope we hear more of the same from you from time to time, in here, where we are always on the subject of history, here in OUR America, and out there in the world as well, and how we as individuals have perceived that "history", or have been affected by it, as you relate above in your own case with respect to the Watergate Break-in, and exactly who Daniel Ellsburg really was, because in truth, I did not know, either, at first!

For me, this time in OUR history, this "Watergate" time, a time we actually lived through, was a real watershed period, or so I thought, and many times since, it is as if this time in our history has somehow been erased, which I don't think is healthy.

And what you talk about above, in your post, strikes me as the same kind of "awakening" process that I personally went through with respect to American "politics", back in that same time!

SO!

You are now in here with the "old-timers" who have memory spans of more than ten or fifteen seconds!

Interesting!

Very, very interesting!

And very, very good to boot!

After all, it does take a community ..........

[jeffmoskin]

I was there too.  :P

I just had my first born when the "Pentagon Papers" were leaked to the press, and i didn't really understand what it all meant. I didn't know who Ellsburg was, but all my friends were talking him, what he wrote and the impact on the presidency it was likely to have.  Weird thing was, some how the Wtergate burglary completely escaped my attention until the hearings got started and was being televised. that's when i discovered PBS.   

FYI: Last summer sometime, I purchased the PBS production of WaterGate Plus 30 DVD -  I had watched the documentary when it was broadcast on KQED, but it is really a dynamite and very comprehensive historical account of all those events and all the players.  Highly recommend to all.

Welcome to the...the...


ROUNDTABLE. I think we have enough people here to call it a roundtable. I'll go put on some coffee.

In a post above, A.B. said that as people, as human beings, we like to, or have a tendency to think good of our leaders, which has us belieivng that they are operating with the good of us all in mind, which oftentimes, I think, is quite far from the truth, at least up here where I am in OUR America.

I think the same goes for people in the media who are in charge of what gets put out for dissemination, BY US, as the "news".

I think we have a tendency to believe that these people are independent from local politics, and that because of this, that they are not biased and prejudiced, when that IS IN FACT THE CASE, that they are very biased, and self-interested, which leads to and feeds the bias.

I think this is due to the "Walter Cronkite Factor." A person of unassailable integrity; an older person; a father figure perhaps.

"And that's the way it is."

And who could disagree.

A good antidote for this is the movie "Broadcast News," in which news director Holly Hunter explains that she simply has to talk into her microphone and her words will travel into "blow-dried talking head" William Hurt's ear and come out of his mouth on air.

I think this explains the unfortunate "evolution" of TV news.

Another antidote: My wife and I watched "Network" last week. What a piece of work - how prescient!!!

News as Entertainment - what a concept. And done in 1976. Paddy Chayesfsky. One of the very best.

Now we have FoxNews (faux news). News as Propaganda. What a concept. Except its origins are more sinister - Joseph Goebbels.

[jeffmoskin]

Also, FWIW, the ORIGINAL "Life in OUR America" thread has been closed! Maybe we maxed out the file size or something. Anyway, for any body wanting to access the now closed thread, here's the way:

1. at the top of this page click MEMBERS.

2. at the bottom of that page, in "Search Options and Filters" type Livyjr and click GO

3. click the bold Livyjr link found on the member list.

4. click "find member's posts"

5. click the rightmost ">>" icon. That will put you back to the beginning of the original thread. You can navigate from there.
Since the thread is "closed", you cannot use the "quote" or "reply" buttons. You can, however, still use the "copy/paste" method.

At the risk of sounding presumptuous, I think there were some posts very much worth saving.

BTW, thank you for your kind words about me, A.B.

I will periodically "bump" this post to keep it current.

BUMP

[Livyjr]

BUMP

And I would say, jeffmoskin, that we are still the original "Life in OUR America", except we are the Volume II, now, having filled up some seventy pages in Volume I.

We have endured!

And yes, in many ways, this could well be a kind of "roundtable" in here, so ...

Mine is black, no sugar!

Just kidding!

[Livyjr]

"I think war is a dangerous place!"

- George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.; May 7, 2003

And as for me, I would say "war is a dangerous place", because war is an unpredictable place, or rather, "outcomes" in war, or as a result of war, just might not be what you want or need them to be, as this next news item hints at:

washingtonpost.com Highlights

"Iraq winners more than U.S. bargained for - Many in newly elected government are closely allied with Iran"

ANALYSIS By Robin Wright

Updated: 10:49 p.m. ET Feb. 13, 2005

When the Bush administration decided to invade Iraq two years ago this month, it envisioned a quick handover to handpicked allies in a secular government that would be the antithesis of Iran's theocracy — potentially even a foil to Tehran's regional ambitions.

But, in one of the greatest ironies of the U.S. intervention, Iraqis instead went to the polls and elected a government with a strong religious base — and very close ties to the Islamic republic next door.

It is the last thing the administration expected from its costly Iraq policy — $300 billion and counting, U.S. and regional analysts say.

Today, the White House heralded the election and credited the U.S. role.

In a statement, President Bush praised Iraqis "for defying terrorist threats and setting their country on the path of democracy and freedom."

"And I congratulate every candidate who stood for election and those who will take office once the results are certified."

Close ties to Iran

Yet the top two winning parties — which together won more than 70 percent of the vote and are expected to name Iraq's new prime minister and president — are Iran's closest allies in Iraq.

Thousands of members of the United Iraqi Alliance, a Shiite-dominated slate that won almost half of the 8.5 million votes and will name the prime minister, spent decades in exile in Iran.

Most of the militia members in its largest faction were trained in Shiite-dominated Iran.

And the winning Kurdish alliance, whose co-leader Jalal Talabani is the top nominee for president, has roots in a province abutting Iran, which long served as its economic and political lifeline.

"This is a government that will have very good relations with Iran."

"The Kurdish victory reinforces this conclusion."

"Talabani is very close to Tehran," said Juan Cole, a University of Michigan expert on Iraq.

"In terms of regional geopolitics, this is not the outcome that the United States was hoping for."

Added Rami Khouri, Arab analyst and editor of Beirut's Daily Star, "The idea that the United States would get a quick, stable, prosperous, pro-American and pro-Israel Iraq has not happened."

"Most of the neoconservative assumptions about what would happen have proven false."

Election may herald new paradigm

The results have long-term implications.

For decades, both Republican and Democratic administrations played Baghdad and Tehran off each other to ensure neither became a regional giant threatening or dominant over U.S. allies, notably Saudi Arabia and the oil-rich Gulf sheikdoms.

But now, Cole said, Iraq and Iran are likely to take similar positions on many issues, from oil prices to U.S. policy on Iran.

"If the United States had decided three years ago to bomb Iran, it would have produced joy in Baghdad," he added.

"Now it might produce strong protests from Baghdad."

Conversely, the Iraqi secular democrats backed most strongly by the Bush administration lost big.

During his State of the Union Address last year, President Bush invited Adnan Pachachi, a longtime Sunni politician and then-president of the Iraqi Governing Council, to sit with first lady Laura Bush.

Pachachi's party fared so poorly in the election that it won no seats in the national assembly.

What next for Allawi?

And current Prime Minister Ayad Allawi, backed by the CIA during his years in exile and handpicked by U.S. and U.N. officials to lead the interim government, came in third.

He addressed a joint session of Congress last September, a rare honor reserved for heads of state of the closest U.S. allies.

But now, U.S. hopes that Allawi will tally enough votes to vie as a compromise candidate and continue his leadership are unrealistic, analysts say.

"The big losers in this election are the liberals," said Stanford University's Larry Diamond, who was an adviser to the U.S. occupation government.

"The fact that three-quarters of the national assembly seats have gone to just two [out of 111] slates is a worrisome trend."

"Unless the ruling coalition reaches out to broaden itself to include all groups, the insurgency will continue — and may gain ground."

Adel Abdul Mahdi, who is a leading contender to be prime minister, reiterated today that the new government does not want to emulate Iran.

"We don't want either a Shiite government or an Islamic government," he said on CNN's "Late Edition."

"Now we are working for a democratic government."

"This is our choice."

And a senior State Department official said today that the 48 percent vote won by the Shiite slate deprives it of an outright majority.

"If it had been higher, the slate would be seen with a lot more trepidation," he said on the condition of anonymity because of department rules.

Unclear fault line between neighbors

U.S. and regional analysts agree that Iraq is not likely to become an Iranian surrogate.

Iraq's Arabs and Iran's Persians have a long and rocky history.

During the 1980-1988 Iran-Iraq war, Iraq's Shiite troops did not defect to Iran.

"There's the assumption that the new government will be close to Iran or influenced by Iran."

"That's a strong and reasonable assumption," Khouri said.

"But I don't think anyone knows — including Grand Ayatollah [Ali] Sistani — where the fault line is between Shiite religious identity and Iraqi national identity."

Iranian-born Sistani is now Iraq's top cleric — and the leader who pressed for elections when Washington favored a caucus system to pick a government.

His aides have also rejected Iran's theocracy as a model, although the Shiite slate is expected to press for Islamic law to be incorporated in the new constitution.

For now, the United States appears prepared to accept the results — in large part because it has no choice.

But the results were announced at a time when the United States faces mounting tensions with Iran over its alleged nuclear weapons ambitions, support for extremism and human rights violations.

On her first trip abroad this month, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Iran's behavior was "something to be loathed" and charged that the "unelected mullahs" are not good for Iran or the region.

One of the biggest questions, analysts say, is whether Iraq's democratic election will make it easier — or harder — to pressure Iran.

end quotes

SO?

Another in a long list of "cock-ups" by the Bush Co.'s?

Stay tuned!

Live!

Late-breaking!

Here, in OUR America!

[Livyjr]

And as for me, I would say "war is a dangerous place", because war is an unpredictable place, or rather, "outcomes" in war, or as a result of war, just might not be what you want or need them to be, as this next news item hints at:

washingtonpost.com Highlights

"Iraq winners more than U.S. bargained for - Many in newly elected government are closely allied with Iran"

ANALYSIS By Robin Wright

Updated: 10:49 p.m. ET Feb. 13, 2005

When the Bush administration decided to invade Iraq two years ago this month, it envisioned a quick handover to handpicked allies in a secular government that would be the antithesis of Iran's theocracy — potentially even a foil to Tehran's regional ambitions.

But, in one of the greatest ironies of the U.S. intervention, Iraqis instead went to the polls and elected a government with a strong religious base — and very close ties to the Islamic republic next door.

It is the last thing the administration expected from its costly Iraq policy — $300 billion and counting, U.S. and regional analysts say.

"In terms of regional geopolitics, this is not the outcome that the United States was hoping for."

Added Rami Khouri, Arab analyst and editor of Beirut's Daily Star, "The idea that the United States would get a quick, stable, prosperous, pro-American and pro-Israel Iraq has not happened."

"Most of the neoconservative assumptions about what would happen have proven false."

Election may herald new paradigm

The results have long-term implications.

For decades, both Republican and Democratic administrations played Baghdad and Tehran off each other to ensure neither became a regional giant threatening or dominant over U.S. allies, notably Saudi Arabia and the oil-rich Gulf sheikdoms.

But now, Cole said, Iraq and Iran are likely to take similar positions on many issues, from oil prices to U.S. policy on Iran.

History!

Always history; and if the Bush Co.'s knew any, at all, history, that is; what a world it just might be!

But they do not!

In fact, outside of raw power, and arrogance, the Bush Co.'s do not seem to know doodly-squat, and that is to OUR detriment, here, in OUR America, because now, the results of the Bush Co. Holy War in Iraq will be that much harder to undo, since it by the hand of the Bush Co.'s that things in Iraq have reached this latest turn in the road described above in this Washington Post article that I cite from in here!

Back before the elections, I was posting on the John Kerry site, and one news article that I had "captured" stated therein an opinion by a Bush Co. that they did not need to know history, as they were in fact the source of history itself, and of course, that reply caused me to think if such a case in our crowded world could ever be so, that there could be one fiddle-player, such as George W. Bush, and everyone else would be a dancer to his tune!

Unrealistic, and arrogant, and hubristic, is what I thought then, and with the publication of this above news article, I think my thoughts back then were somewhat on the mark!

"Most of the neoconservative assumptions about what would happen have proven false!"

SO?

WHO ARE THESE NEW CONS, and why are they in charge of foreign policy in OUR America?

And how did this happen?

And when?

Who is this Billy Kristol, and this Paul Wolfowitz?

WHERE does their power over George W. Bush come from, especially this Billy Kristol character?

Does anyone know?

And should we know?

After all, THEY now have the helm of the ship of state, here in OUR America!

SO?

Can they steer OUR ship?

Can they read a map?

Can they navigate?

Questions for OUR times!

Here, in OUR America!

[Livyjr]

I think this is due to the "Walter Cronkite Factor."

A person of unassailable integrity; an older person; a father figure perhaps.

"And that's the way it is."

And who could disagree.

A good antidote for this is the movie "Broadcast News," in which news director Holly Hunter explains that she simply has to talk into her microphone and her words will travel into "blow-dried talking head" William Hurt's ear and come out of his mouth on air.

I think this explains the unfortunate "evolution" of TV news.

Now we have FoxNews (faux news).

News as Propaganda.

What a concept.

Except its origins are more sinister - Joseph Goebbels.

Synchronicity, jeffmoskin!

Just the other day, a young person that I know called me from Philadelphia to ask me what I knew about Joseph Goebbels, in the same type of context in which you bring up his name above here!

Interesting, indeed, and so, this young person and I had quite a chat, almost along these same lines as you are discussing above, jeffmoskin!

Amazing parallels!

And I don't think it is necessarily coincidence!

I believe that Karl Rove is quite a student of this Mr. Goebblels, and has adopted his methodology, which is what that young person was calling me about the other night, to see if such a thing could be possible!

My answer was, of course, because that stuff with Goebbels was long enough ago now that it is not known or thought of by a majority of Americans alive today!

In fact, if it were not for "oldsters" like you and A.B., likely that name would never get mentioned "out loud", either in here, or out there, in OUR America!

And hence, Karl Rove has his safety shield, which is the gross ignorance of those that he is manipulating!

How slick!

How elegant!

AND IT WORKS!

[jeffmoskin]

History!

Always history; and if the Bush Co.'s knew any, at all, history, that is; what a world it just might be!

But they do not!\

or Ancient Chinese Sayings, like:

Be Careful What You Wish For - You Could Get It.

[Livyjr]

or Ancient Chinese Sayings, like:

Be Careful What You Wish For - You Could Get It.

Yes, indeed, jeffmoskin!

And here, I am struck by what an inept, knee-jerk crowd we really have down there in Washington, D.C., with this Bush Co. crowd that is now in power down there!

Earlier today, I was thinking of Mr. Dwight David Eisenhower, and his views on war, when he was president!

What a counter-point he was to this crowd!

But, of course, Eisenhower had actually seen war, and not just a movie or two about it, like the Bush Co., and when Eisenhower saw real war, and not just the movie of it, I believe that he was sober, as well, and I think that may have made quite a difference in his outlook on it, war, that is; versus this inept Bush Co. crowd's "outlook", if jerking your knees in reaction to what is going on in the world around you can be called an "outlook".

[Livyjr]

And speaking of those inept, knee-jerkers down there in Washington. D.C. who have given us one very expensive and largely botched-up HOLY WAR in the Middle East, here is another view of what they are now going to be jerking their knees to, over there in Iraq in the next weeks and months, and likely years, for us, anyway:

Top Stories - The Christian Science Monitor

"Shiite Islamists to shape new Iraq"

Mon Feb 14, 9:33 AM ET

The election gave a Shiite Islamist slate more than 47 percent, a Kurdish alliance 25 percent, and Allawi's list 14 percent.

By Dan Murphy, Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

BAGHDAD - A slate packed with Shiite politicians who want Islam to govern much of Iraqi life rolled to victory in the country's first free election in 50 years.

Its members will take almost half the seats in a 275-member national assembly that will write a new constitution.

The results of the Jan. 30 vote, released Sunday, confirm a profound political shift, with Iraq's majority Shiite Arabs - treated as second-class citizens under Saddam Hussein - finally translating their numerical weight into political power.

But where Iraq's transformation will lead remains uncertain.

In addition to confirming the Shiite Arab dominance, the results showed abysmal turnout among the Sunni Arab minority who profited under Mr. Hussein and have driven the war against the US-led coalition and the interim government.

That leaves a Shiite-led government backed by the US military squaring off against a Sunni Arab-led insurgency that could cause Iraq's burgeoning civil strife to deepen.

Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, the Jordanian militant who leads the most extreme fringe of Iraq's diverse and decentralized insurgency, has repeatedly called for war with Iraq's Shiites.

Many Iraqi Shiites say they're hoping the new government will hit the insurgents hard once it takes power and controls positions in the Interior Ministry and the emerging Iraqi military.

"The new government has to be a lot tougher, fight force with more force,'' says Uday Allawi, a young policeman and Shiite in Baghdad.

Two other Iraqi policemen say the use of torture against captured Sunni insurgents has become routine.

Nagem Mohammed, a Shiite woman who works in a bookshop in central Baghdad, also wants a tough line.

"If the government is strong, not like Saddam, but strong, things will get better,'' she says.

"They will control the security situation by not showing any mercy to the insurgents, even if they have to hang them."

Coming in second behind the religious Shiites' United Iraqi Alliance List (UIA), which will hold about 130 seats in the assembly, was an ethnic Kurdish list that took about 26 percent, or 70, of the seats.

The party of the secular Shiite and US favorite Iyad Allawi came a distant third, with about 14 percent, or 38 seats.

The UIA is led by the Dawa Party and the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI), Shiite parties that have ties to Iran and would like Islam to play a much bigger role in the country's government.

A turnout of 8.45 million votes - or about 59 percent turnout of 14.2 million eligible voters, according to new figures given Sunday - was low for a transitional election, and reflected wartime conditions and a boycott by many Sunnis.

In elections surveyed by the Monitor that marked a shift from dictatorship to democracy and were sometimes held under war conditions over the past 15 years, turnout has averaged 77 percent.

Only Bosnia's parliamentary elections of 1996, which were boycotted by many Serbs, had lower turnout, with just 46 percent.

In the last transitional election, in Afghanistan, turnout was 80 percent.

Since the Iraqi election, violence - much of it with sectarian overtones - has swept back across this troubled country, emphasizing the tough road that lies ahead for the US and Iraq's new leaders.

In the past week, unarmed Shiite Arabs have been a particular target of insurgent attacks, with deadly bomb blasts outside two Shiite mosques, a hospital in the mostly Shiite town of Musayyib, and an armed raid on a Baghdad bakery.

In all, at least 100 civilians were killed in attacks during the week.

The violence has cast a pall over what is otherwise a joyful day for millions of Iraqis, with most residents of Baghdad rushing to get home before nightfall rather than staying out to celebrate the results.

US officials had hoped Sunni voters would defy insurgents and turn out in large numbers to vote, thereby sending a message to fighters that they're in a tiny minority.

But most Sunni Arabs did not go to the polls.

In the overwhelmingly Sunni Anbar province, only 2 percent of adults voted.

In largely Sunni Salahuddin, Hussein's home province, just 32 percent voted.

Though Allawi's list has some Sunni Arabs on it, the two Sunni parties that didn't boycott the election did poorly, and the assembly will have far fewer Sunni Arabs than their 20 percent share of the population would warrant.

The election list of Sunni interim President Ghazi Al-Yawar won about five seats, while the list of Adnan Al-Pachachi, a former top diplomat and exile, failed to win a single seat.

While Sunni Arab groups are fighting for a variety of reasons, they are bound by the common expectation that their once-privileged position is coming to an end.

Shiite leaders have repeatedly offered olive branches to Sunni groups with ties to the insurgency, offering them a say in the writing of the constitution, whatever the election returns.

But now they will be tested by the demands of the people who have brought them to power.

"I think the situation is going to get worse from here,'' says Hodayer Abbas, who repairs air conditioners in Baghdad.

"I'm not sure how the government should solve the problems, but they shouldn't give roles in the government to the fighters."

"They're murderers and that shouldn't be rewarded."

Hussein routinely used vicious collective punishment against Shiite and Kurdish communities, both of whom defied his government.

Now these two groups hold most of the cards in parliament.

But with no party holding the two-thirds of parliament needed to control the government, coalitions will have to be made.

There are vast differences between the religious Shiites and the secular leaning Kurds, who want to maintain the de facto autonomy they won in the 1990s thanks to the US-patrolled no-fly zone that protected them from the Iraqi Army.

The UIA says it wants either Ibrahim Jaafari of the Dawa Party or Adel Abdul Mahdi of SCIRI to be Iraq's next prime minister.

The Kurds say they want Jalal Talabani, a veteran Kurdish leader, to be made president.

While it's possible the two sides will come to an arrangement, the Kurds also want to incorporate Kirkuk, the northern city that serves as a hub for Iraqi oil production, into their region, something that the main Shiite parties oppose.

Mr. Allawi has been scrambling to protect his position, flying to the Kurdish area this week to form an alliance.

His secular leaning leaves him with more in common with the Kurds than the religious Shiites, but the two groups together still have fewer seats than the UIA.

[Livyjr]

And speaking of ineptness by the Bush Co.'s, separate and apart from the "knee-jerking", it would seem that it is the talk of the town these days, down there in Washington, D.C., but really, who should be surprised?

Politics - AFP

"Iraq reconstruction scandalous: Democrats"

21 minutes ago

WASHINGTON(AFP) - The Bush administration was accused of allowing the US rebuilding of Iraq to become as chaotic as the Wild West, of protecting a US contractor accused of fraud and of censorship.

Senator Harry Reid, head of the opposition Democrats in the US Senate, was visibly angry over accounts of incompetence and corruption from former staff of the US-led Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) in Iraq.

"This is a scandal," said a visibly angry Reid.

"We are close to 24 months into this conflict with Iraq, and the administration (of US President George W. Bush) still can't seem to get it right," he said.

Reid spoke during hearings in Congress into the management of the CPA's multi-billion dollar reconstruction program.

In the hearings, civilians compared CPA operations to the Wild West, saying bags full of cash were tossed freely about, at times as footballs.

Franklin Willis, who supervised aviation for the CPA in late 2003, accused the organization of "poor execution" and called it "naive."

He said that millions of dollars in 100-dollar bills stored in the basement of the CPA offices were casually distributed to favored contractors with little accounting discipline.

Another witness accused the government of hampering an investigation into alleged fraud by US-based Custer Battles, which had contracts worth as much as 100 million dollars in Iraq for airport security and other jobs.

Custer Battles was accused of repainting old airport equipment and billing the CPA for new equipment, among other schemes.

"We estimate that the government's total losses are tens of millions of dollars," said lawyer Alan Grayson, who represents former employees of the company.

"Yet for more than a year, the Bush administration has done nothing to recover these ill-gotten gains," Grayson said.

Don North, a journalist hired by the CPA to create a new independent Iraqi television station, said he was scandalized by the censorship imposed on the operation.

Instead of covering stories of consequence to Iraqis, the station had to cover CPA publicity events, North said.

"It resulted in our newscasts appearing to be a laundry list of CPA activities," said North, who formerly worked with leading US television networks.

"I left after four months of frustrations," he said.