Life in OUR America, Volume 2, The Livyjr Files Options

[jeffmoskin]

WE NOW DO OWN IT, or more properly George W. Bush and his crowd do, since that oil will not really benefit any of us serfs and commoners here in OUR America, except for "trickle-down", which generally occurs in the form of the bills for the "big-bottom boys" having those lush, big-bottoms coming down to us to have to pay; and so, we, or more properly, George W. Bush and his crowd, now control the flow of money that the oil represents!

Of course. Thank you for correcting me.

WE don't own the oil. WE own the debt required to take it!

The oil will fill the bottom lines of the International Mega-Coroporations for years to come. It is possible that Iraq has even bigger reserves than Saudi Arabia. There is not enough data to know for sure, but the possibility has been raised.

Oh, hell, we are only talking about a difference of a few tens of billions of barrels. And we have yet to pump our ten billionth barrel out of Alaska, after 20 years on line, just to put it in perspective.

Occidental Petroleum pumps oil out of Colombia. OUR tax dollars provide the troops to keep the FARC (rebels, guerillas, evildoers in Bushspeak) from blowing up the pipelines. Debt. That's what WE get out of it.

Our troops will keep the Afghanistan pipeline safe for Unocal.

Shocked?

The Unocal deal was signed WITH THE TALIBAN during the Clinton Administration. At the last minute, the Taliban asked for a bigger cut and Unocal told them where to go. While they were both thinking it over, Bush was installed in the While House and all bets were off.

Who's next?

I hear they have oil in Iran. Anybody else hear that?

This post has been edited by jeffmoskin: Feb 28 2005, 09:30 AM

[Livyjr]

And how many times, now, has the "world" ended?

Once?

Three times?

Countless times?

And yet, people always remain!

And that is the way it is!

If you are playing "musical chairs" and the music ends, and you are still standing, IS YOUR LIFE OVER?

Of course not!

You're just out of the game, and there, my friends, is the point!

It is all a game, a great big game, called the "GREAT GAME OF HOUSES", and it has been going on now for years and years and years!

In fact, you would hard pressed trying to find a time or place in the history of the world where the game was not going on, and the players today have not invented anything new; to the contrary, they have just inherited the game from those who came before, and they have simply continued it onwards, like me taking over for jeffmoskin in a game of Monopoly, except, I might be more or less "cut-throat" than he, and actually, Monopoly is a good metaphor for all of this which is going on out there around us in the cold, cruel world, as you sometimes hear it called.

In the game of Monopoly, owning "Park Place" is equivalent to having money in the bank, although the "money" itself might not actually be; and it is the "equivalence", rather than the "actuality" that counts, because with "Park Place", you can get money, even if you have none of your own, at the time, and that is the case with this Iraqi oil!

WE NOW DO OWN IT, or more properly George W. Bush and his crowd do, since that oil will not really benefit any of us serfs and commoners here in OUR America, except for "trickle-down", which generally occurs in the form of the bills for the "big-bottom boys" having those lush, big-bottoms coming down to us to have to pay; and so, we, or more properly, George W. Bush and his crowd, now control the flow of money that the oil represents!

AND THAT IS POWER, in and of itself!

And there is the point!

This thing called power!

The aphrodisiac!

The "HEAD TRIP"!

The ultimate corruption!

Is it the "human condition", then?

Is it unescapable?

Someone will always have "power", and so, someone else must always be "subjugated", or victimized?

Seems that way, don't it?

And so, the saying, "stop the world, I want to get off!"

Except you can't!

Or can you?

Questions for OUR times, here, in OUR America!

Perspective!

Or at least that is what I think, anyway, in my simple way of living life, perspective!

If you have some idea as to what the "human condition" really is all about, then you can get through life a bit easier, because you are not "surprised", or "stunned", all the time, by what is going on around you in the world.

Does this "knowledge" make you complacent?

Well, I guess it could, but, no, is what I would say; it makes you simply more "accepting", I suppose, of what you simply cannot change, AT THAT MOMENT!

Such as what this following story talks about, which is this continuing thing of "GOVERNMENT CORRUPTION, here in OUR America:

U.S. National - AP

"Probes Taint L.A. Mayor's Re-Election Bid"

Sun Feb 27, 2:14 PM ET

By JEREMIAH MARQUEZ, Associated Press Writer

LOS ANGELES - Mayor James Hahn's re-election bid has suffered — along with the image of honesty he worked hard to cultivate — amid accusations he let corruption and fraud flourish at City Hall.

County prosecutors have been investigating allegations that Hahn supporters shook down companies that wanted to do business with the city by tying public contracts to political contributions.

Federal prosecutors have opened their own inquiry.

Hahn has not been implicated and denies knowledge of any potential wrongdoing, but the investigations touch whole segments of city government — from members of Hahn's inner circle to Los Angeles International Airport and the water and power department.

No city official has been charged, though several have resigned.

But with prosecutors issuing subpoenas for Hahn's office e-mails and summoning some of his aides before grand juries, the investigations have become a popular topic for his four main challengers in the March 8 primary.

"He's the pinata."

"The question is the whether the pinata will survive," said Bob Stern, president of the nonpartisan Center for Governmental Studies in Santa Monica.

Critics have cast Hahn's administration as the most corrupt since a scandal-plagued mayor was recalled nearly 70 years ago, and some of his supporters have withdrawn their endorsements.

"It's more than a scandal."

"It's crippled his administration," said Councilman Bernard Parks, a former police chief whose ouster was backed by Hahn and who is one of the mayor candidates.

Hahn has been reminding voters of his reputation for personal integrity.

"There's no factual basis for any of these charges," said Hahn's campaign consultant Kam Kuwata.

"It's always rhetoric and hot air."

However, more than a third of respondents to a Los Angeles Times poll said Hahn lacks the honesty and integrity to be mayor.

The poll also found that none of the five candidates appears to have the majority support needed to avoid a May 17 runoff.

The race is nonpartisan, and all five major candidates are Democrats.

The investigations accelerated following an audit by Los Angeles' public watchdog, the city controller, that said shoddy records and meddling by political appointees in screening airport contracts gave the appearance of conflicts of interest and abuse.

Separate audits criticized the secretive process by which the harbor department awarded leases and accused a publicity firm of overcharging the city's water and power agency by millions of dollars.

Local and federal prosecutors largely have refused to comment, though some details have surfaced:

_The federal probe yielded its only indictment last month, against a former executive at a public relations firm that had millions of dollars in contracts with City Hall.

The executive pleaded not guilty to 11 counts of wire fraud in an alleged scheme to overbill the Department of Water and Power by $250,000.

City Controller Laura Chick said Hahn was using the firm's contract with the agency to burnish his own image.

_In December 2003, Chick announced she had given law enforcement agencies evidence of "potential illegal acts" uncovered during an audit of contracts at the airports department.

She singled out the department's practice of letting politically appointed city commissioners review and recommend millions of dollars worth of contracts they later voted on.

Airport Commission President and Hahn fund-raiser Theodore Stein resigned following reports that he suggested an engineering firm might lose future contracts because it wouldn't donate $100,000 to the mayor's 2002 campaign against San Fernando Valley secession.

Stein said the accusations were "unfounded" and "malicious."

_Deputy Mayor Troy Edwards, previously finance chairman for the mayor's 2001 campaign, has resigned.

Hahn said his departure was unrelated to the probes, but Edwards has testified before a county grand jury looking into contracts.

_In cases not connected to the contract probes, a prominent lawyer was charged last May with reimbursing contributors to Hahn's 2001 campaign, and a real estate developer was fined $270,000 by a city ethics panel that found he laundered campaign donations to Hahn and others.

"It does damage the city's reputation," Xandra Kayden, senior fellow at the University of California, Los Angeles, School of Public Affairs, said of the charges of corruption.

"This isn't Tammany Hall corruption, but it's a major loss of credibility."

[jeffmoskin]

"This isn't Tammany Hall corruption, but it's a major loss of credibility."

Who are WE to hurl rocks at New York? Youse guys may have been the first, but certainly not the last when it comes to corruption at City Hall.

[Abu Beacon]

In

Can't permit this to happen. Since America doesn't make products anymore, the dollar would become toilet paper, like Turkish Lira or Mexican Pesos.

I truly believe that this is the very moment that BushCorp decided that George W Bush HAD TO BE INSTALLED IN THE WHITE HOUSE BY HOOK OR BY CROOK.

And that is why they stole Florida.

And that is why they invaded and occupied Iraq.

We may not be able to pump it. But we OWN IT.

We have to. It is all that is propping up our otherwise worthless dollar.

Iraq oil propping up the U.S. dollar.

I had never thought of it that way

It is a very believable theory and the more I think about it, the more a lot of things come together. That is an excellent and astute supposition, jeffmoskin.

We may be in Iraq with a sizable force for years. ( how about forever )

That may be a reason why the Bush co. is not concerned about the deficit.

As long as we control a huge supply of oil, we remain in the driver's seat.

Wow !


Great post.

A.B.

[Livyjr]

Iraq oil propping up the U.S. dollar.

I had never thought of it that way

It is a very believable theory and the more I think about it, the more a lot of things come together. That is an excellent and astute supposition, jeffmoskin.

We may be in Iraq with a sizable force for years. ( how about forever )

That may be a reason why  the Bush co. is not concerned about the deficit.

As long as we control a huge supply of oil, we remain in the driver's seat.

Wow !
     
Great post.

A.B.

Yes, indeed, it is, A.B.

jeffmoskin has been on this for quite a while, and my independent research verifies his points.

It is so esoteric to most people, however, that it is largely invisible, even though right out in front of everyone.

And this airborne invasion of the Iraq oil fields that actually did take place here in the earliest days of the Holy War; that was on the table in the late-1970's!

The threat was Russia's retaliation, or pre-emption, with its own airborne takeover, as Russia's logistics favored it over us!

To hide something most effectively, hide it in plain sight, and no one will ever see it!

And it works, especially if you tell them to look the other way, or else the boogie man will have them for sure!

[Livyjr]

And is there a price to appearing just plain incompetent as a world leader on the world stage?

Are there consequences to that, for us, IF George W. Bush is taken for an incompetent fool of a world leader by others in the world who are not Americans, and may actually harbor a grudge against George W. Bush, but would mistakenly want to carry out that grudge against us, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, as though we were somehow united with George W. Bush in this aggressive war which he is unilaterally waging against the people of Iraq?

Because he is president of America, and the Solar System, as well, as I understand it anyway, from my interpretation of various communiques out of the White House Press Office; IS George W. Bush in fact the "FIRST OF THE FIRST", or is he "just one more guy", out there in the world, where all the candid world watches and waits?

Stay tuned!

Top Stories - Reuters

"Bin Laden Asks Zarqawi to Make U.S. a Target -Source '

10 minutes ago

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden has fairly recently asked his chief ally in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, to consider the territory of United States as a target for terrorist attacks, a U.S. counterterrorism official said on Monday.

"There has been communication between bin Laden and Zarqawi with bin Laden suggesting to Zarqawi the U.S. homeland as a target," said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

The official said the communication was "a fairly recent development" and contained no specific threat to the United States.

But the official declined to provide details for fear of compromising U.S. anti-terrorism efforts.

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security has warned state officials around the country that the government had received nonspecific information about al Qaeda's plans to attack the United States.

Homeland Security spokesman Brian Roehrkasse said the department had sent out a classified intelligence bulletin to state homeland security advisers over the weekend to give details of "recent credible but nonspecific" threat information.

"This nonspecific information reiterates al Qaeda's desire to potentially target the homeland," Roehrkasse said.

He said the information was still being analyzed by the intelligence community but it was not enough to cause any increase in the terrorism alert level.

"Based on this information, the Department of Homeland Security has no plans to raise the threat level," he said.

Zarqawi, a Jordanian militant, is a leading figure among Islamic insurgents who are waging a deadly campaign against U.S.-led forces in Iraq.

CIA Director Porter Goss warned the Senate intelligence committee this month that the insurgency posed an emerging international terrorism threat and said Zarqawi was trying to establish a safe haven in Iraq from which to operate against Western nations and "apostate" Muslim governments.

"The interesting thing here is bin Laden reaching out to leverage additional resources wherever he can find them to fulfill his goal of striking the homeland," the counterterrorism official said on Monday.

(Additional reporting by Deborah Charles)

[Livyjr]

Perspective!

Or at least that is what I think, anyway, in my simple way of living life, perspective!

If you have some idea as to what the "human condition" really is all about, then you can get through life a bit easier, because you are not "surprised", or "stunned", all the time, by what is going on around you in the world.

Does this "knowledge" make you complacent?

Well, I guess it could, but, no, is what I would say; it makes you simply more "accepting", I suppose, of what you simply cannot change, AT THAT MOMENT!

Such as what this following story talks about, which is this continuing thing of "GOVERNMENT CORRUPTION, here in OUR America:

U.S. National - AP

"Probes Taint L.A. Mayor's Re-Election Bid"

Sun Feb 27, 2:14 PM ET   

By JEREMIAH MARQUEZ, Associated Press Writer

LOS ANGELES - Mayor James Hahn's re-election bid has suffered — along with the image of honesty he worked hard to cultivate — amid accusations he let corruption and fraud flourish at City Hall.

County prosecutors have been investigating allegations that Hahn supporters shook down companies that wanted to do business with the city by tying public contracts to political contributions.

Federal prosecutors have opened their own inquiry.

Critics have cast Hahn's administration as the most corrupt since a scandal-plagued mayor was recalled nearly 70 years ago, and some of his supporters have withdrawn their endorsements.

"It's more than a scandal."

"It's crippled his administration," said Councilman Bernard Parks, a former police chief whose ouster was backed by Hahn and who is one of the mayor candidates.

And here, I would like to do some suggesting, as to what I would like to see here IF I had my own druthers in this above LA alleged corruption matter!

It would be nice, for instance, if someone started a thread, hard-hitting in nature, called something like "Live in L.A.", and then contact this Councilman Parks, and ask him to do an on-line interview on this international forum!

jeffmoskin, any thoughts, as you are out there, I understand?

I would really like to hear what this Councilman has to say on the subject of public corruption in a large American city, as I too was "ousted" from a law enforcement job for investigating public corruption, although Public Health Law, and not Penal Law, as that man's job would have been!

And I am thinking very strongly that we, all of us in here, regardless of where we live IN THE WORLD, we should all consider adopting this Councilman Parks' campaign as "OUR CAMPAIGN" for integrity in government for 2005!

ADOPT INTEGRITY IN GOVERNMENT, HERE IN OUR AMERICA; ADOPT AND ELECT COUNCILMAN PARKS!

Of course, he would have to acquit himself well to win our further support, but right now, I would like to propose this Councilman Parks as the "CANDIDATE OF THE WEEK", at least, here in this forum!

Thoughts, America?

[jeffmoskin]

ADOPT INTEGRITY IN GOVERNMENT, HERE IN OUR AMERICA; ADOPT AND ELECT COUNCILMAN PARKS!

Of course, he would have to acquit himself well to win our further support, but right now, I would like to propose this Councilman Parks as the "CANDIDATE OF THE WEEK", at least, here in this forum!

Thoughts, America?

Just because Mayor Hahn has got his *ss in a sling doesn't mean Parks should get his job. Nice work in exposing him (of course, Parks is COMPLETELY UNBIASED, just doing his civic duty) assuming it is true (and the media NEVER LIES as we all know)

Anyway, there is a field of 10 or 11 candidates running, and since the winner needs 51 percent, there will be a run off. This is really just a primary.

Hahn won four years ago by playing to the (racist) suburban crowd in the San Fernando Valley while simultaneously cashing in on his good name (his FATHER's good name, really) in the black community. Was this pulling a rabbit out of the hat or what???

This time, the blacks are smarter. They are backing Antonio Villaregosa and Parks.

As a GREAT American once said, "There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

[jeffmoskin]

...And this airborne invasion of the Iraq oil fields that actually did take place here in the earliest days of the Holy War; that was on the table in the late-1970's!

The threat was Russia's retaliation, or pre-emption, with its own airborne takeover, as Russia's logistics favored it over us!

Mostly, the cold war paradigm kept us from trying anything on Iraq, which was, at the time, a Soviet Client State. Then, after Iran fell to the Ayatola, the US was able to "acquire" Iraq as a client to sell weapons to fight Iran. Very lucrative since we supplied aircraft parts to Iran for money to arm the Contras.

With the collapse of the Soviet Union, the US had no nuclear constraints to hold it in check. That is why the Neo Con Men started their movement to take this opportunity to take over the world's oil supply.

Meanwhile, Putinsky has taken over Yukos and Gazprom, so his empire will be well financed.

I gotta believe that BushCorp and Putinsky have worked all this out so that BushCorp can do its thing without risking any retaliation from him. After all, he benefits more than anyone from high oil prices.

[Livyjr]

And while we are spending BILLIONS OF DOLLARS A MONTH on Bush Co.'s HOLY WAR, how are we really doing in the Bush Co.'s alleged "WAR on TAY-RAH"?

Or doesn't anyone in this Bush Co. regime really know?

White House - AP Cabinet & State

"Officials Warn of Future Terror Attacks"

By KATHERINE SHRADER, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - Speaking with one voice, President Bush's top intelligence and military officials said Wednesday that terrorists are regrouping for possible new strikes against the United States.

They said the best defense was for Congress to approve the president's military and anti-terror budget.

And is there a price to appearing just plain incompetent as a world leader on the world stage?

Are there consequences to that, for us, IF George W. Bush is taken for an incompetent fool of a world leader by others in the world who are not Americans, and may actually harbor a grudge against George W. Bush, but would mistakenly want to carry out that grudge against us, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, as though we were somehow united with George W. Bush in this aggressive war which he is unilaterally waging against the people of Iraq?

Because he is president of America, and the Solar System, as well, as I understand it anyway, from my interpretation of various communiques out of the White House Press Office; IS George W. Bush in fact the "FIRST OF THE FIRST", or is he "just one more guy", out there in the world, where all the candid world watches and waits?

Stay tuned!

Top Stories - Reuters

"Bin Laden Asks Zarqawi to Make U.S. a Target -Source  '

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden has fairly recently asked his chief ally in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, to consider the territory of United States as a target for terrorist attacks, a U.S. counterterrorism official said on Monday.

"There has been communication between bin Laden and Zarqawi with bin Laden suggesting to Zarqawi the U.S. homeland as a target," said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

The official said the communication was "a fairly recent development" and contained no specific threat to the United States.

But the official declined to provide details for fear of compromising U.S. anti-terrorism efforts.

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security has warned state officials around the country that the government had received nonspecific information about al Qaeda's plans to attack the United States.

Homeland Security spokesman Brian Roehrkasse said the department had sent out a classified intelligence bulletin to state homeland security advisers over the weekend to give details of "recent credible but nonspecific" threat information.

"This nonspecific information reiterates al Qaeda's desire to potentially target the homeland," Roehrkasse said.

"Based on this information, the Department of Homeland Security has no plans to raise the threat level," he said.

SO!

We have, in this GOVERNMENT SPOKESPERSON'S words, this Mr. Roehrkasse, who alleges to be speaking FOR US, apparently; "NONSPECIFIC" information of a "DESIRE" on the part of al Qaida, to "POTENTIALLY" target OUR America!

And how about that, then?

Potentially target!

How serious sounding!

Oh so very serious, indeed!

Non-specific information, too!

And isn't that the most serious kind?

Of course, that is kind of like "endeavor to persevere"!

If you are going to persevere, you just do it, you don't endeavor to do it, which is not, in and of itself, doing anything at all!

Al Qaida "desires" to "potentially" target OUR America?

That's crap!

A great big load of crap, and why?

Why are we being fed this swill?

Does this Roehrkasse think WE ARE ALL STUPID, here in OUR America?

And what about the news services that print this stuff as though it were serious discussion of national security, here in OUR America?

Do they think we are unable to look at this combination of words, a "DESIRE TO POTENTIALLY DO SOMETHING", and see that it is nothing but incoherent jibberish intended to keep us off balance here in OUR America, while this crowd continues to loot out OUR national treasury, like a bunch of rats in the woodwork of OUR America, like a bunch of weevils in OUR grain?

Or are we actually so stupid that we will actually fall for this jibberish?

Al Qaida re-iterates a desire to potentially do something, which of course, is proof of nothing at all, except some guy down in Washington, D.C. is spinning yarns as though to children, here in OUR America, for the apparent purpose of scaring them so bad that they will give him lots of money to protect them, which is extortion, is it not, what this guy is doing?

Extortion?

Inducing someone to pay you off, out of fear of being harmed?

Psychological manipulation for the purpose of obtaining money!

A con!

A great big con game, and it is being played on us, as though we were just a bunch of rubes, or suckers!

Sounds it to me, anyway!

[Livyjr]

Just because Mayor Hahn has got his *ss in a sling doesn't mean Parks should get his job.

Nice work in exposing him (of course, Parks is COMPLETELY UNBIASED, just doing his civic duty) assuming it is true (and the media NEVER LIES as we all know)

Anyway, there is a field of 10 or 11 candidates running, and since the winner needs 51 percent, there will be a run off.

This is really just a primary.

Hahn won four years ago by playing to the (racist) suburban crowd in the San Fernando Valley while simultaneously cashing in on his good name (his FATHER's good name, really) in the black community.

Was this pulling a rabbit out of the hat or what???

This time, the blacks are smarter. 

They are backing Antonio Villaregosa and Parks.

As a GREAT American once said,  "There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

And this is some interesting political analysis here, jeffmoskin!

Thank you for it, and I am very sincere in that!

I think that if we are going to have any impact at all with this new medium of communications as a tool in OUR American politics, we need a test case to focus on, and this Los Angeles election sounds like an ideal one to me, AS IT IS NOW ON-GOING, and we have a man right directly on the scene in the person of yourself.

Who is this Villaregosa, for example, and why might he be better than Parks?

And, of course, many allegations are going to be made, and many of them are likely to be untrue, or half-truths or distortions, or innuendos, BECAUSE THAT IS THE GAME!

That is POINT I, and it is a basic point that people in OUR America need to understand if they are going to be effective in their own local politics.

You cannot wilt because the other side tells a lot of lies!

They win automatically if you do!

Case in point was the complete and utter failure of John Kerry himself to come out immediately in public to take on the Swift Boat liars!

Instead, for some unfathomable reason to me, he let Mary Beth Cahill and her people handle that, and they made a complete botch of things that destroyed John Kerry!

And if you expect any kind of truth at all out of the "media", you are likely just a damn fool, for they can tell lies to match or beat any politician that I know of, hands down!

SO?

Would you consider, then, jeffmoskin, developing your points further in here on this LA race, and maybe give us some "play by play", and even "man (and woman) on the street" type of news?

I for one would find the experiment in "internet reportage from the scene" quite interesting, and it would be a good dry run, or practice run, perhaps, for more important political contests which will be coming our way down the pike, and especially in 2006!

[Livyjr]

And here, once again, I find myself returning from a thread of Mr. A.B.'s; this time, his thread over in "Religion and Politics", where the topic has to do with religion entering into, or staying out of, OUR American politics!

And that, of course, brings us back to this concept of "liberty", here in OUR America.

What is "LIBERTY" and why should it matter, especially in these times, when we are told that America is being "threatened" by all these alleged "outside" threats that always seem to involve Muslims and Islam in some other foreign country thousands of miles away from here, as was the case with Viet Nam in the last go-round, except then, of course, it was "Godless Communism", while this time it is alleged "Godless Islam" that we as a nation seem to have an obligation to be cowering down from, at the same time that we are making ourselves very hateful, so as to be able to "smite" this godless religion, I guess, or more accurately, give over all of our money and possessions to George W. Bush and his, so that they can do that smiting for us.

Now, during the Viet Nam times, the term "godless communism" was much more of a "political concept" than it was a religious one, and as one who "caught the bug" and did go to Viet Nam, I can say for myself, that religion did not enter into that matter at all.

In fact, I thought that we were going over there to fight a bunch of dangerous thugs, and that has to do with "justice" and not religion.

But this is now different, these times that we are now in, because it is religious this time, and not political at all, unless you want to say that the politics are those of an alleged world superpower versus those of a tribal society in a different part of the world that has religion, Islam, as an intrinsic part of its structure!

This, to me, is overt, and in Mr. A.B.'s thread, where I am a guest, I made a point of stating that, and how I find this present "religious" climate in OUR America to be repressive and offensive, and repugnant to OUR liberties as citizens of this Republic of OURS, which it still was the last time I checked this morning.

RELIGIOUS LIBERTY:

a) Freedom, as guaranteed by the First Amendment of the United States constitution, from constraint, or control in matters affecting the conscience, religious beliefs, and the practice of religion.

b) Freedom to entertain and express any or no system of religious opinions, and to engage in or refrain from any form of religious observance or public or private religious worship, not inconsistent with the peace and good order of society and the general welfare!

- Black's Law Dictionary

SO!

There it is in a nutshell!

Or is it, really?

In what is being called the "post-9/11 environment", is OUR Constitution now an impediment to "national security" as George W. Bush and the Republicans would have us believe?

Which is to say, "IN THE ALLEGED "POST-9/11 ENVIRONMENT, IS THE CONCEPT OF AN AMERICA WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL NO LONGER A VALID CONCEPT"?

Is OUR America now passe?

That is the point, as I see it, to these discussions that we are having in here, and elsewhere out there in the world, and in other parts of this forum, such as Mr. A.B's thread in "Religion and Politics".

And how do I come to this "position"?

Well, let us look more closely, and carefully, at the definition of RELIGIOUS LIBERTY IN OUR AMERICA above, for that answer, especially that part about RELIGIOUS LIBERTY in OUR America incuding "Freedom", as guaranteed by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, from constraint, or control in matters affecting the conscience, religious beliefs, and the practice of religion; AND "Freedom" to entertain and express no system of religious opinions, and to refrain from any form of religious observance or public or private religious worship, not inconsistent with the peace and good order of society and the general welfare.

And here, I want to make clear why I go to Black's Law Dictionary for my definitions, instead of just a standard lay-person's dictionary, and it is because this thing of liberty is a legal concept here in OUR America, and so, I want to use the words and definitions that lawyers and judges do, when talking about these same matters; as it is those words which form the precedents here, and not my mere opinions on some subject or other, as though we were talking about angels dancing on the heads of pins, or whether or not there should be a hockey season this year, despite the wishes of the owners, or players' association to have it not be so!

Is LIBERTY a subjective concept, or an objective concept, here in OUR America?

That is a question that is not posed lightly, at all!

In fact, in and after 1776, OUR fore-fathers in liberty, and likely fore-mothers in liberty as well, shed a lot of blood and endured a lot of hardship over that exact question, or issue, which, before the American Constitution, might have been purely subjective, BUT after the American Constitution, became a matter of OUR organic American law as embodied in our United States Constitution.

ORGANIC LAW: The fundamental law, or constitution, of a state or nation, written, or unwritten; that law or system of laws or principles which defines and establishes the organization of its government!

- Black's Law Dictionary

Here, in OUR America, which nation now stands as a nation on the face of this earth because of the beliefs of a generation long before OURS in natural liberty for all mankind, as flawed as the operation of that might have been at the time of this nation's beginnings, the concept of "organic law" is at the very heart of OUR Republic's legal system, and right now, as I see it, that "organic law" has never been more threatened than it is right now, under the "administration" of this present incumbent, and the power and weight of the "Republican Party", which stands behind him, and between us and OUR natural liberties.

Case in point is this thing of religion these days, which to me, is fueling this present conflict in the Middle East!

Regardless of why we went to Iraq, and there, I say, and have since before the war, that it was OUR intent as a big nation to simply stage a military takeover of a smaller, lesser nation to steal its mineral resources, the struggle has now morphed over into a full blown religious struggle, AND THAT RELIGIOUS STRUGGLE IS BEING WAGED RIGHT HERE IN OUR AMERICA, to OUR detriment, as a nation on the face of this earth of ours.

Religion is being used as a political tool by George W. Bush to divide us as a nation, to create "CLASSES" here in OUR America, based upon whether or not we cleave to him, and his standard!

And I do not; not with regard to this "religion" thing!

I don't go to George W. Bush's church, nor do I accept his religious beliefs as mine, AND I DO NOT HAVE TO, according to OUR United States Constitution!

BUT .....

Here is the rub, and it is an important one, and it has to do with this thing called "STRICT CONSTRUCTIONISM" that is also an issue at this time, here in OUR America, where George W. Bush is trying to load OUR federal court system with his "STRICT CONSTRUCTIONIST" judges.

According to "STRICT CONSTRUCTIONISM", the amendments to the United States Constiitution really are just words without any real meaning, or operation as safeguards, here in OUR America.

Yes, those words are there, in the amendments, the "STRICT CONSTRUCTIONISTS" say, but they don't mean a thing, since they were not a part of the original Constitution!

What we had, say the "STRICT CONSTRUCTIONISTS" at the time of the American Revolution, is all that we get the day after, and this has direct implications with regard to this matter of religion in OUR American politics, AS AT THE TIME OF THE SIGNING OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, we had state-sponsored and supported churches, and if you were not a member of a state-sponsored church, you were a second-class citizen without rights, here in OUR America.

For example, up into the 1800's, if you were a Catholic, in certain states, as a matter of law, you could not hold public office.

Public office in those places, AS A MATTER OF LAW, was limited to members of the state-sponsored church.

NOW ....

The Bush Co's are saying that SINCE this was so, IT STILL IS, and those who would "USE" the First Amendment to counter this; THOSE PEOPLE are "un-American"!

Those who would use the First Amendment to challenge state-sponsored religion here in OUR America are "trouble-makers" who should be dealt with harshly!

That is "STRICT CONSTRUCTIONISM" in practice!

Thus, "GOD" put George W. Bush on the throne of OUR America, for "God's" purposes, of course, which we, as lay-persons cannot even begin to fathom, and since "God's" purposes are "good purposes", and only America has a leader actually installed by "God", then we, as "GOOD AMERICANS", must cleave to the religious standard of Mr. George W. Bush, to ACTUALLY be both "godly", and "good Americans"!

If we do not, of course, then we are enemies of "AMERICA", as defined by George W. Bush, SINCE GOD PUT HIM IN POWER, here in OUR America in order for him to be able to make such distinctions, FOR "GOD's" PURPOSES, of course, which purposes we as lay-persons just can never know a thing about, without a "PRIEST CLASS" with George W. Bush as its head, to interpret for us, the masses who apparently just have "religion" as OUR "opiate", here in the "post-9/11 environment" that was brought on, here in OUR America, directly by George W. Bush and his, for their benefit, which is certainly not my benefit, and not by a long shot, indeed!

SO!

Where are we, then, as a nation?

Are we poised on the brink of something, perhaps, or has the "post-9/11" environment" created in OUR America by George W. Bush and his, for their own reasons, actually pushed us over a precipice?

Is the "AMERICA" that we knew and loved as children growing up in this great nation of OURS now really gone from us, forever?

The question of the moment, here in OUR America!

Stay tuned for further developments, and if you see a guy about fifty-nine years old with greyish hair and a mustache nailed to a tree somewhere, and this thread is vacant for more than a day, take a closer look as you go by, for it just might be me!

And as always, I continue to regret that I have but one life to give for my country!

[jeffmoskin]

Would you consider, then, jeffmoskin, developing your points further in here on this LA race, and maybe give us some "play by play", and even "man (and woman) on the street" type of news? 

I for one would find the experiment in "internet reportage from the scene" quite interesting, and it would be a good dry run, or practice run, perhaps, for more important political contests which will be coming our way down the pike, and especially in 2006!

Well, so far it looks like Villaraigosa, Hahn, and Hertzberg, all in a three-way tie. Which I believe will result in a runoff between Villaraigosa and Hahn just like 4 years ago. My guess is that Villaraigosa will get more of the Hertberg votes than Hahn who is having to fend off his little scandal as well as show what a good mayor he is (when he isn't)

But running on a bad record and winning has been done before.

On November 2, 2004 to be exact.

[Abu Beacon]

The question of the moment, here in OUR America!

Stay tuned for further developments, and if you see a guy about fifty-nine years old with greyish hair and a mustache nailed to a tree somewhere, and this thread is vacant for more than a day, take a closer look as you go by, for it just might be me!

And as always, I continue to regret that I have but one life to give for my country!

While you are there, keep looking at trees, you may find on another tree close by, a Middle Eastern looking, old guy in his 80's with a mostly gray beard, rather short in height, also nailed to said tree.

Looking on the bright side of every situation as I usually do, being nailed close to Livyjr puts me in good company.

Where I might disagree with my hanging neighbor, is this : While I would not regret giving up my life for my country, I would have serious objections to losing it because of a handful of power hungry individuals.

In the last couple of days, I read a few interesting articles in the local newspaper.

1. U.S. cites rights abuse by Iraq government. The State Department detailed an array of human rights abuses committed last year by the Iraqi government,
including torture, rape, and illegal detentions.

2. Judge orders U. S.: " Charge or free " dirty bomb " suspect. " ( The suspect, Jose Padilla, has spent more than 2 &1/2 years in custody without being charged. Sounds like " illegal detention " to me. )

3. While Congress is considering scaling back parts of the Patriot Act, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales is " warning " Congress to renew the Patriot Act intact.


Well, we all know that anyone not in favor of giving up the freedoms we have fought many wars to keep, is obviously an " UnPatriot. "

Reading B.S. like the above can sure ruin a good day.

A.B.

[jeffmoskin]

2. Judge orders U. S.: " Charge or free " dirty bomb " suspect. " ( The suspect, Jose Padilla, has spent more than 2 &1/2 years in custody without being charged. Sounds like " illegal detention " to me. )

It's about f*cking time, don't you think?

2 &1/2 years in custody without being charged?

In America???

[Livyjr]

While you are there,  keep looking at trees, you may find on another tree close by, a Middle Eastern looking, old guy in his 80's with a mostly gray beard, rather short in height, also nailed to said tree.

Looking on the bright side of every situation as I usually do, being nailed close to Livyjr puts me in good company.

A.B.

Oh God, A.B. you have me laughing out loud here!

Can we do that in here, laugh, I mean?

Is it still permitted, here in OUR America, or might it be construed as a sign of disrespect to George W. Bush, if we are laughing when he might not be laughing, and with that said, I wonder if he ever does?

Laugh, I mean!

[Livyjr]

And it is interesting the "energy" that Mr. A.B. and jeffmoskin bring in here with them!

Mr. A.B., I bet we can get in some good conversation for a while, anyway, nailed to those trees as we may be, if we are close enough together anyway.

I hear you kind of lose your voice after awhile, so we'll have to talk quick, I quess, or maybe we can just use shorthand notation, or data compression maybe, so we can get a lot more said on the same amount of "page"!

In the meantime, what have we here?

Ah, yes, OUR Donald!

U.S. National - Reuters

"Suit Alleges Rumsfeld Approved Torture"

1 hour, 40 minutes ago

By Alan Elsner

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Two U.S. human rights groups on Tuesday sued Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, saying he first authorized and then failed to stop torture of prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The American Civil Liberties Union and Human Rights First filed suit in federal district court in Rumsfeld's home state of Illinois on behalf of eight former detainees who said they were severely tortured.

All eight were subsequently released without being charged.

"Secretary Rumsfeld bears direct and ultimate responsibility for this descent into horror by personally authorizing unlawful interrogation techniques and by abdicating his legal duty to stop torture," said Lucas Guttentag, lead counsel in the case.

The Pentagon said it was studying the complaint and had no immediate comment.

The ACLU filed similar complaints against three other senior officers: Col. Thomas Pappas, Gen. Janis Karpinski and Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez on behalf of prisoners mistreated at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison.

The suit against Rumsfeld focuses on an order he signed on Dec. 2, 2002 which authorized new interrogation techniques for detainees in the "war on terror" being held at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.

The techniques included "stress positions," hooding, 20-hour interrogations, removal of clothing, exploiting phobias to induce stress, prolonged isolation and sensory deprivation.

Later, when evidence became overwhelming that prisoners were being tortured, Rumsfeld turned a blind eye and allowed the mistreatment to proceed, the suit alleges.

"Secretary Rumsfeld knew full well that his orders were causing torture and he knew that torture was occurring on a widespread basis and he did not stop it," Guttentag said.

SEEKING DAMAGES

The plaintiffs want the court to declare Rumsfeld's actions unconstitutional and a violation of U.S. and international law and are also seeking monetary damages for their injuries.

All eight are willing to come to the United States to testify.

The plaintiffs -- four Afghan citizens and four Iraqis -- allege treatment that included beatings, being cut with knives, sexual abuse and humiliation, being locked in coffin-like boxes for extended periods, being deprived of food and water and threatened with execution and being hung upside down for hours on end.

Arkan Mohammed Ali, a 26-year-old Iraqi held for a year from June 2003 to 2004, alleges that U.S. personnel twice beat him unconscious, used a large knife to repeatedly stab and slice his forearm, burned and shocked him with a small metal device, locked him naked for several days in a small wooden box, urinated on him and made death threats against him.

Mehboob Ahmad, a 35-year-old Afghan citizen held for five months in 2003, said he was probed anally, hung upside down from the ceiling by a chain and hung by his arms for extended periods.

Soldiers once forced him to drink 12 half-liter bottles of water in five minutes.

The mistreatment of prisoners became an international scandal after the appearance last year of pictures showing sexual abuse of men -- naked and bound -- at Abu Ghraib.

The administration led by President Bush says only a handful of low-ranking personnel were involved.

Dozens of other cases have been brought against soldiers for abusing detainees elsewhere in Iraq and in Afghanistan but previous efforts to charge senior officers and administration officials have not proceeded very far.

An August 2004 report by a panel appointed by Rumsfeld stated that he and other top Pentagon leaders contributed to an environment in which prisoners suffered sadistic abuse at Abu Ghraib.

[Livyjr]

And here, once again, I find myself returning from a thread of Mr. A.B.'s; this time, his thread over in "Religion and Politics", where the topic has to do with religion entering into, or staying out of, OUR American politics!

And that, of course, brings us back to this concept of "liberty", here in OUR America.

What is "LIBERTY" and why should it matter, especially in these times, when we are told that America is being "threatened" by all these alleged "outside" threats that always seem to involve Muslims and Islam in some other foreign country thousands of miles away from here, as was the case with Viet Nam in the last go-round, except then, of course, it was "Godless Communism", while this time it is alleged "Godless Islam" that we as a nation seem to have an obligation to be cowering down from, at the same time that we are making ourselves very hateful, so as to be able to "smite" this godless religion, I guess, or more accurately, give over all of our money and possessions to George W. Bush and his, so that they can do that smiting for us.

In the meantime, what have we here?

Ah, yes, OUR Donald!

U.S. National - Reuters
 
"Suit Alleges Rumsfeld Approved Torture"

By Alan Elsner

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Two U.S. human rights groups on Tuesday sued Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, saying he first authorized and then failed to stop torture of prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The American Civil Liberties Union and Human Rights First filed suit in federal district court in Rumsfeld's home state of Illinois on behalf of eight former detainees who said they were severely tortured.

All eight were subsequently released without being charged.

"Secretary Rumsfeld bears direct and ultimate responsibility for this descent into horror by personally authorizing unlawful interrogation techniques and by abdicating his legal duty to stop torture," said Lucas Guttentag, lead counsel in the case.

The Pentagon said it was studying the complaint and had no immediate comment.

SO!

This is what that "smiting" really looks like, when you get right down to it, and as an older American who is himself a war veteran, I have to say that this crap makes OUR America look like one real sick and perverted place, and I don't know how anyone can come to another conclusion, except a Harvard History professor I know, of course, and then, well, okay, yes, there's the NEW CONS, and George W. Bush, of course, and the Republican National Committee, and then, of course, there is the Charisamtic Evangelical crowd who controls George W. Bush through his Office of Faith-Based Initiatives, and Karl Rove, BUT ....

Outside of them, most other people I speak with think this is some real sick stuff here, and they wonder, as I wonder, just what kind of people can do this sick stuff, and like me, they do not consider these sick twists to be the same kind of Americans that they are, and boy, do I ever heartily endorse that position, which I have taken as mine, as well!

SO!

PEOPLE OF THE WORLD:

When you hear of this stuff, and you are, the same as I, DO NOT LOOK IN MY DIRECTION, when you seek retribution for these crimes against humanity!

I am not one of them!

Thank you very much!

[Livyjr]

Over in Mr. A.B.'s "Religion and Politics" thread, myself, jeffmoskin and Mr. A.B., and maybe others as well, were accused of running a propaganda machine for the Muslims, I guess, and I have to say that I find that a very interesting allegation to be made against us, especially in these days of terror here in OUR America as a result of this so-called "Patriot Act", which allows the "gummint" to simply swoop down and remove people in the middle of the night, and probably broad daylight too, based upon nothing at all, but a desire on their part to eliminate people, in order to remove and revoke dissent, here in OUR America.

And from what I understand, that "Patriot Act" is quite a tool for them to be able to crush real patriotism in OUR America with!

Then, of course, I was also accused of being "angry", and being a communist sympathizer, if not an outright commie, myself, and that is a real Republican attack, if there ever was one.

And they have that down to a science, actually; EXCEPT, in here, where the conversation is kind of "frozen", the "attack method" is really not quite as effective as when employed in "real time" by such ilk as Rush Limbaugh, and Scottie "BOY" McClellan, and Mehlman, of course, and that "Racey" Ott fellow that is or was some kind of big-wheel in the Republican hierarchy, and there is OUR advantage in here, that "slowing down" of the rate of exchange between participants in the conversation.

Before we have to say a word in reply, we can really study what was just said to us, or in this case, about us, and so, we can then marshall our resources, and give as full a response or reply as the situation warrants, and here, I mean acting intelligently, and not being mean or spiteful in return.

I, of course, have a lot of personal experience with Republican attack methodology, and the use of this accusation of "anger", which the Republicans use very successfully in real life to actually remove dissenters, and make sure that they never speak again, and if it were not for the miracle of this internet, and this forum, in particular, likely the Republicans would have absolutist government in place, here in OUR America, where dissent just would not be allowed or permitted to happen!

And an advantage that I have, now, of course, is that I am old, and I have seen and experienced life, so that if it is taken from me now, and I personally do not delude myself that it cannot happen, or cannot be done; then at least I will have my memories to take with me, when I go, for I always live as if I were on my long journey home, and so, I am!

In the meantime, of course, we have, life, in OUR America, live, as it happens, and while I am still down here on this earth, I am and remain, your host, Livyjr!

SO!

Welcome to this thread, on behalf of myself, and jeffmoskin, and Mr. A.B.!

And enjoy (and yes, I just checked, and it is alright to laugh in here, so long as it is not out loud, so as to be heard by the Republicans, and then used as the basis of a charge of gross disloyalty to George W. Bush, against us)!

Silent laughter!

Kind of like silent prayer, I guess; just don't move your lips, so nobody will know what you are saying!

Don't want to offend anybody, after all, as it just is not a nice thing to do!

[Livyjr]

Well, so far it looks like Villaraigosa, Hahn, and Hertzberg, all in a three-way tie.

Which I believe will result in a runoff between Villaraigosa and Hahn just like 4 years ago.

My guess is that Villaraigosa will get more of the Hertzberg votes than Hahn who is having to fend off his little scandal as well as show what a good mayor he is (when he isn't)

But running on a bad record and winning has been done before.

On November 2, 2004 to be exact.

And here, jeffmoskin, since I have unilaterally decided to "watch" and "track" this race in here, in this thread, and since we are not "on the scene" as you are, as our correspondent on the scene out there in sunny L.A., where this contest is taking place, could you provide us with some background on the mood of the voters out there, vis-a-vis this alleged corruption?

Is the "corruption" an issue, do you think, or is it just a "non-starter" as the wags and pundits on TV like to say these days; just another "ho-hum" thing as it "happens all the time, now", here in OUR America?

And another area where we need some background is with respect to the sheer size of the City of Los Angeles itself, which is actually a city the size of the county where I live, more or less.

Could you flesh out for us the demograhics a little more perhaps, so that those of us in here who are not from there can better appreciate the appeal the different candidates have to various factions out there.

For example, in another post above, you made reference to prejudices of the "Valley people", I think it was!

Could you amplify on that, perhaps, for our edification, what that really means to "politics, L.A style"?

And it will be interesting to see just how close L.A. politics "track" as compared with politics in other areas of OUR America!

After all, ploys remain ploys, and prejudices are as old as mankind, and very enduring in their character, I have found, and so ......