Life in OUR America, Volume 2, The Livyjr Files Options

[Livyjr]

I think we need to remember that we're dealing with very volatile, very painful memories. 

Discussing these memories on a public forum without a real life support system to fall back on, should things get rough, worries me.

But it don't worry me, Gabrielle, and that is all that counts.

I say this forum is a miracle because it is a miracle.

Now, for most people, that may be or sound like hyperbole, and "gushing" or something like that, but for me, it is a miracle, something that just shouldn't be, but is!

This is the most incredibly therapeutic thing that there ever could be for someone like me, OR ALL THESE other veterans as well.

PLUNGE THROUGH is what I would say to these other veterans so situated as me, and here, Gabrielle, I would refer you to the other, OR ANOTHER, side or dimension of this same conversation over in Mr. A.B.'s "Religion and Politics" thread, which for you people not registered, is arrived at by going down to the bottom of the page, and clicking on the "TOPICS", and then scrolling down until you come to "Issues of Importance in OUR Lives", or words to that effect, and click on that, which will take you to a new screen, where, if you scroll down, you will find "Religion and Politics", and when you click on that, up will come the threads, where you will scroll down and find "George W. Bush v. The Holy Bible"!

And I am now no longer without a "support system", Gabrielle, for what I have in here is a great one, and I also do have one around me where I am, BECAUSE for people like me, GOD really does provide!

Anyone who doubts that, of course, can certainly come up with another way, then, to explain this FORUM, AND THIS THREAD, and Mr. A.B., who, as an old man just decided to become computer-literate, and jeffmoskin, with his wonderful broad range of knowledge, especially of "comparative religion", which he so willingly shares with us, and then, of course, there is Gabrielle, with her wonderful insight into the inner working of the "human being", and ........... BUT .....

[Abu Beacon]

But it don't worry me, Gabrielle, and that is all that counts.

I say this forum is a miracle because it is a miracle.

but is!

This is the most incredibly therapeutic thing that there ever could be for someone like me, OR ALL THESE other veterans as well.

PLUNGE THROUGH is what I would say to these other veterans so situated as me, and here, Gabrielle, I would refer you to the other, OR ANOTHER, side or dimension of this same conversation over in Mr. A.B.'s "Religion and Politics" thread, which for you people not registered, is arrived at by going down to the bottom of the page, and clicking on the "TOPICS", and then scrolling down until you come to "Issues of Importance in OUR Lives", or words to that effect, and click on that, which will take you to a new screen, where, if you scroll down, you will find "Religion and Politics", and when you click on that, up will come the threads, where you will scroll down and find "George W. Bush v. The Holy Bible"! 

And I am now no longer without a "support system", Gabrielle, for what I have in here is a great one, and I also do have one around me where I am, BECAUSE for people like me, GOD really does provide!

..

Livyjr - You continue to be an inspiration.

One of the simple lessons in life - We all need people.

Barbra Streisand had a a hit song many years ago. The lyrics went something like this:

" People who need people are the luckiest people in the world. "

A.B.

[Livyjr]

I think we need to remember that we're dealing with very volatile, very painful memories. 

Discussing these memories on a public forum without a real life support system to fall back on, should things get rough, worries me.

And here, as "ONE" of the "head-injury" combat veterans, which gives me a certain "viewpoint", I suppose it is, as to what it is to be one, I would say that someone "OUT THERE", as Gabrielle is, to a "head-injury" veteran, would have good reason to be concerned, AS SHE IS EXACTLY RIGHT, these are very volatile, very painful memories, and let there be no mistake about that, BUT ......

What is "volatile", such as these "memories", is only dangerous IF CONTAINED, and the miracle of this FORUM, and this thread, IS THAT FOR ME, THE CONTAINMENT of the last thirty years is finally BREACHED, and so, "pressure" immediately dissipates, and so, I spend a lot of time talking about the miracle of this FORUM as a "tool of therapy" to a lot of people, including one psychologist with a lot of experience working with combat veterans like me.

After all, WHO BETTER KNOWS WHAT IS GOOD FOR A DISABLED VETERAN, than the veteran him or herself?

Of course, ten years ago, or twenty years ago, or thirty years ago, or even last year, I really had no idea such a thing as this could even exist, and so, I had no way to even imagine how such a thing could transform my own life, as this forum has done.

And that is just since November 4th of last year!

SO?

What is that?

Four months?

Transformation!

Of course, again, the only one who can know that is me, and so, for the first time in 35 years, I can express myself like a "normal" person, which means after 35 years, I can even explore what that might really mean, and there is where Gabrielle needs to do some re-considering, because for her, and I believe that she will know exactly what I mean, the "conversation" has been somewhat "one-sided" or "lop-sided" for while she has the capacity to understand, the veteran, without this computer system, has lacked the capacity to adequately express what is really "going on" in there, and I imagine that Gabrielle has seen some or many "OUTBURSTS" due to sheer frustration that have perhaps come across as "RAGE", which then cause the veteran to be labeled, or branded, which is a very real phenomena, here in OUR America, especially since the advent of "HATE RADIO" talk shows, here in OUR America, and the George W. Bush/Dick Cheney/Karl Rove ACTIVE HATE CAMPAIGN in this last several years which has served to not only isolate people like me, but to further make us into objects of derision in the community!

In fact, when I first "came on" the computer, in April of last year, it was to say: STOP THE HATE!

And I kept saying that, and saying that, and saying that, and seemingly to no avail, for it has not abated!

And were it not for this forum, I would have no outlet to continue to do that, say STOP THE HATE!

People like me are "trash of war", especially to other veterans, who see us as "embarassments"!

YES!

That is true!

In fact just the other day I chastised a veteran on the internet for making disparaging remarks about PTSD veterans, as though they were merely "trash"!

Veterans involved with politics do not want us around!

They want us out of sight, and America does too, although "PEOPLE" in OUR America, REAL PEOPLE, individuals here and there, are not that way, and so, I have learned over the years to manuver myself around, practicing strategic "avoidance" to try and get through the days as best I can, although that ends up with people like me as "non-participants" in "life" a lot of time, UNTIL THE ADVENT OF THIS FORUM, which is a miracle to me, and hopefully will be, as well, for this new crop of disabled veterans that the GREED of George W. Bush and his "FAT BOTTOM WAR-MONGER BOYS" crowd is creating for the common folk in OUR America, and especially the families of these "disabled" veterans, who, admittedly, are going to have their hands very full when their loved ones come home to them as "HEAD CASES"!

I would say that having to deal with me when I came back from Viet Nam killed my mother, and I have to live with that the rest of my life!

You raise a child and then, WHAT DO YOU GET BACK?

And you know what, GEORGE W. BUSH, and DICK CHENEY and THAT WHOLE CROWD OF HIS DO NOT GIVE ONE DAMN ABOUT THAT ANSWER!

They care that the trough is always full, of swill, FOR THEM TO STICK THEIR SNOUTS IN, and they care that they are getting richer and richer, which of course, translates into POWER, for them.

If they have to stack destroyed human bodies up in a huge pile to do that, THEY DON'T CARE!

Because it won't be them, or theirs, that is in that pile, and that pile of bodies translates out as more and more money FOR THEM, and so ......

And if they don't like me saying that, THE TRUTH AS I SEE IT, then let them come and club me down, BUT UNTIL THEN ....

This thread will continue, until there is no longer a need to say these things!

And America, the candid WORLD, thank you for listening!

[Livyjr]

Livyjr - You continue to be an inspiration.

One of the simple lessons in life - We all need people.

Barbra Streisand had a a hit song many years ago. The lyrics went something like this:

" People who need people are the luckiest people in the world. "

A.B.

And let me say that many times in here, tears are also brought to my eyes, but better there than in my heart!

Thanks for being there, Mr. A.B., as an inspiration right back!

Especially your light-heartedness and continuing joy at just being alive, and then taking of your time to come in here to share that on a daily basis with the rest of us who just might have to live a whole 'nother "lifetime" just to get to where you are now standing, or, well, okay, maybe sitting .......

And that is something now, isn't it, how this all works out!

Why, it all makes you think that there just might be a compassionate god "out there" somewhere, after all, despite the awful damage that George W. Bush has done to that "image" over these last four years with all of his wanton killing in the name of what he would have us believe is HIS compassionate god, the "one" who he would have us all believe set him right down hard, not only on the throne of all America, and ALL Americans, but of the world, the moon, the stars, the sun, and well, EVERYTHING!

[jeffmoskin]

This thread will continue, until there is no longer a need to say these things!

And America, the candid WORLD, thank you for listening!

And don't forget to give yourself a round of applause for STARTING THIS THREAD.

Three cheers for Livyjr.

[Livyjr]

And don't forget to give yourself a round of applause for STARTING THIS THREAD.

Three cheers for Livyjr.

I'm always cautious, jeffmoskin, of breaking my arm!

But thank you ........

[Livyjr]

A.B.,

I feel so honored that you have also shared some of your stories of the South Pacific with the forum. 

It is difficult for those of us who have never been in combat to understand just how terrifying it can be. 

I am continually amazed at how brave, how couragous you and the other veterans are. 

And I feel very fortunate to be able to consider you my friend.   

I find it very interesting that you say it's not true "there are no athiests in foxholes." 

I can see that men would curse God or turn their backs on him, or refuse to turn to belief in God during such a horrible experience. 

I might lose all faith in God, too, under the same circumstances. 

Seeing human suffering has been one of the greatest challenges to my faith.

I'm glad you are here, A.B.! 

Spiritual cultivation is a daily activity!

No matter how much we achieve one day, we must continue the next.

Progress is often so subtle that we may feel the effort futile, and it is hard to get up each morning and try again with the same enthusiasm.

YET THIS IS PECISELY WHAT WE MUST DO!

If we have the benefit of guidance, talent, and the proper circumstances, then the bulk of our attention has to be paid to such a simple day-to-day effort.

NO PERSON EVER LEAPT TO HEAVEN IN ONE BOUND!

Spirituality is achieved by steady climbing, like a difficult journey to a mountain temple.

The number of steps is in the thousands; the way is steep!

It takes a long time to get there, and we must content ourselves with the panorama along the way and think that the view at the summit will be best of all.

If we fall, we must pick ourselves up and get back on the trail again.

Success in spiritual life is measured not by spectacular events, but daily devotions.

THIS IRON WILL, THIS DEEP SINCERITY, MAINTAINS OUR ASCENT!

- Deng, Ming-Dao

[Livyjr]

And as my final post in here this day, I want to "reprint" this post that I originally made back on Mother's Day of 2004, on the John Kerry Forum, and I want to dedicate this post to all those out there with loved ones in harm's way this day, as it very accurately reflects my thoughts on "WAR" and what it can and does do to OUR American families, now and for the future!

It was originally in response to a post by the daughter of a WWII veteran who had found out, when her father had died, that when he came home from "war", he had taken all his stuff, including his medals, and burned them, something she just could not understand!

WHY WOULD SOMEONE WHO EARNED "MEDALS" IN WAR BURN THEM, and everything else from that "war" as well, and never tell their own children that they were "heros"?

DEAR MOTHERS OF AMERICA, WHAT FOLLOWS IS FROM WE, YOUR CHILDREN IN AMERICA, WITH OUR HEARTS AFFLICTED BY THE HORRORS OF WAR; DELIVER US FINALLY FROM THIS EVIL, WE PRAY YOU!

"Old soldiers never die; they just fade away"

Words from a song in the days of my youth, if ever I really had one!

One of those people that I most admired in my life was an older, unprepossessing, unassuming man that I would have coffee with quite regularly, and we would chat back and forth on this or that, and sometimes we would talk in a quiet way about war and such, for this man, then in his 80's, had been drafted for one year's military service about exactly one year before Pearl Harbor, so that the day before he was to be discharged, Pearl Harbor happened, and well, you know, that was the end of his discharge.

He, like many others of that generation, because of that one day, was in for the duration, and long that was for them to be.

Being a smaller man, one day, he was singled out of his unit with a bunch of other smaller men, and they were then all taken away to a new base, where they found out that they were to be part of a brand new military concept back then, which was the "paratroop" corp that we now take so for granted.

At that time, airplanes had not been around all that long, and so parachuting into combat was an untried concept.

It was originally thought back then, because of inexperience with the concept, that men over a certain height and weight could not survive the impact of the landing, so originally, all of those "drafted" as the new paratroop army were small men like this man.

"Shrimps" and "midgets" he jokingly called them, as they were also apparently called by those around them who were not so small, especially the British in North Africa, he would say, who mocked them for their apparent lack of physical stature.

I have listened to hours of this quiet man talking to me about those experiences of learning to be a paratrooper in the early days of WWII, an airborne trooper or "sky soldier" as we Viet Nam veterans would call them, the elite of our nation's fighting forces back then.

After learning to be a paratroop, this old man, then young, of course, was made a part of the 82nd Division, now called "airborne", but at that time just emerging with a new identity from being a "straight leg", as we non-airborne "grunts" were called, infantry division.

This man was sent first to North Africa, where the battle for supremacy of the desert against Rommel and the Africa Corps of the German Army was being waged, and from there to an airborne landing in Sicily, then the D-day jump into Normandy, and then on to Berlin, and the eventual end of the war.

As a Viet Nam combat veteran, I would listen raptly as this man recounted his experiences of "his war" as he called it.

"My war" and "your war" this man would say to differentiate Viet Nam and WWII.

It is hard for me, who has 2 Purple hearts and a Silver Star from Viet Nam, to even conceive of what this man went through.

I know from personal experience that when you are under fire, that funny things happen to the passage of time, so that a day in combat can seem like a year, and a year can seem like an eternity, and this man endured the experience not for months or a year like we did in Viet Nam, but for years on end, in all kinds of places, like the desert of North Africa, to the snows and cold of Europe in the winter months, and this old man endured all of that somehow, and either never became bitter, or got over it before I met him, so that I would not even be tempted to utter a word about Viet Nam, which thank God, never got that awful cold.

Now, I know that this old man was wounded twice, because such things from war time service cannot be hidden from another veteran, and I know this man engaged in acts of heroism in that struggle that again are just about inconceivable to most of us, myself included, Silver Star and Purple Hearts notwithstanding, and yet he would never really talk about them as being anything more than what you do when you believe in something dearly enough to fight and perhaps die for it.

What really are these medals, anyway?

What, for example, is a Silver Star?

Does anyone know or really care?

I have one and it sits in a drawer, because like that old man, for me, the war is over and we are home.

It is better to look forward, rather than backwards, so the Silver Stars tarnish, and the Purple Hearts themselves too lay neglected in a drawer, although the wounds which caused them are not so kind as to simply go away and hide.

I didn't burn my medals when I came home from Viet Nam, although with all of the anger that filled me at that time, I can certainly understand the feelings of those who did, like your father in the war before mine.

There is a saying "To those who fight for it, freedom has a feeling the unprotected never learn to know" or words to that effect, and like the old man above, and perhaps your father too, to me, those words ring all too true.

What is it that we combat veterans know from this experience, and why is it we burn our medals and never say why?

I, like my friend, am now getting old, or older anyway, and after all these years, I still don't have an answer, nor for all his wisdom, did this old man I talk about.

I know from talking to this old man that I am one of the very few people that he has ever uttered a word to about his experiences in WWII, and that his own children knew none of these things about his experiences because when you have children after experiences like those, and this I do know, you just cannot bring yourself to tell your own children exactly how bad, how very ugly, the world and the people in it can be at times, and here I include us as well, because when you got off those helicopters in Viet Nam, it was not to give out hugs and kisses, I can tell you; it was to make some poor fool on the ground wish to God that you had never been born, and that of all other things, that you had never gotten on that helicopter that day in the first place, and it gets ugly from there in the recounting.

So who wants to tell their children and families afterwards that this is who their father really was, this person who could do these kinds of things and not be so sick in his soul afterwards that he would just shrivel up and die of shame on the spot?

Who wants to know that they are the off-spring of these people?

Be thankful that you knew your father for the man he was in your own life afterwards, and not who he might have been the day before, is what I would say to you as one of those like your father who will wrestle with these feelings until the day I die, and then get put away in the earth some place with my deeds in war hopefully unsung and unheralded.

There is where hope for the future springs from, from the standpoint of this combat veteran and that old man I talk about as well; not what we did as soldiers, but what instead we as soldiers hope never to see done ever again in the world, especially by our own children, even though we know in our heart of hearts that human nature don't change much, so that the cycle is likely to repeat over and over again.

Be thankful every day of your life that your father was who he was and didn't bother to talk about it.

After war, humility is not a bad thing to have.

God bless and live in peace, because I think that is really what your father would wish your memories of him to be, a man who came home and raised a family and not a man who went to war.

signed, one who thinks he might have a glimmer of knowledge as to your father's thoughts on the matter

THANK YOU, MOTHERS OF AMERICA FOR BEING THERE IN OUR TIME OF NEED. OUR BLESSINGS AND KIND THOUGHTS TO YOU ON THIS YOUR DAY!

[Gabrielle]

Livyjr. & A.B.,
I'm sorry if I have offended you two today. That was not my intention. I agree you all know what is best for you - much better than me. And despite my keen interest in your conversation about your combat experiences, I will not be able to participate in the conversation. This is a judgment call on my part and it has been a difficult call to make. I have thought about you guys all day. I feel bad for not living up to your expectations. I feel bad for letting you both down.

This post has been edited by Gabrielle: Mar 5 2005, 08:18 PM

[jeffmoskin]

Livyjr. & A.B.,
I'm sorry if I have offended you two today.  That was not my intention.  I agree you all know what is best for you - much better than me.  And despite my keen interest in your conversation about your combat experiences, I will not be able to participate in the conversation. This is a judgment call on my part and it has been a difficult call to make.  I have thought about you guys all day.  I feel bad for not living up to your expectations.  I feel bad for letting you both down. 

From where I sit, I think you have offended no one. Keep on reading, posting, caring. Everything will be fine.

[Gabrielle]

From where I sit, I think you have offended no one. Keep on reading, posting, caring. Everything will be fine.

Thanks Jeff. I've been worried about this all day. It makes me feel so good that you posted this. Now I can finally get some rest. You guys are great on these threads. See you tomorrow...

[jeffmoskin]

Thanks Jeff.  I've been worried about this all day.  It makes me feel so good that you posted this.  Now I can finally get some rest.  You guys are great on these threads.    See you tomorrow...

Night night. Pleasant dreams.

[Abu Beacon]

Quote - Gabrielle

Livyjr. & A.B.,

I'm sorry if I have offended you two today. That was not my intention. I agree you all know what is best for you - much better than me. And despite my keen interest in your conversation about your combat experiences, I will not be able to participate in the conversation. This is a judgment call on my part and it has been a difficult call to make. I have thought about you guys all day. I feel bad for not living up to your expectations. I feel bad for letting you both down.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gabrielle ----- I do not have the any idea why you would think you have offended me. I cannot speak for Livyjr although I believe I have a pretty good idea what he will say when he rolls out of bed, has his coffee and donut and gets himself awake.

As I mentioned to you yesterday, I kave learned from your writings that you are sensitive to other people's feelings, which is in my opinion, an uncommon and very positive attribute.
The danger is that you may read into a situation something that is not really there.
Please --- just stay the way you are.

I was not just beating my gums when I said you add a new dimension to this thread.

I sincerely hope you are not saying that you have decided to stay away from this thread when you say you will not be able to participate in the conversation.

I sort of think I am speaking for Livyjr and jeffmoskin as well as myself when I tell you this thread is immeasurably better with you on it. We need your perspective, your intelligent comments, and most of all your caring.

So please do not go away.

A.B.

This post has been edited by Abu Beacon: Mar 6 2005, 05:14 AM

[Abu Beacon]

I have a feeling that you may not have seen this post, Livyjr, or else you thought the punishment I have recommended for you is so cruel and unusual that you could not handle it.

Anyhow, I am repeating it, just to be sure.

A.B.

Well, Livyjr, I just do not understand how you can be so "UNPATRIOTIC. "

Tsk. Tsk.

I have decided on an appropriate punishment for you.

You are to be locked in a room for 24 hours with a tape player or DVD playing John Philip Sousa music very loudly.

That will straighten you out.

Just in case there is one soul reading this, who is taking my comments seriously,
please be advised that this is said in jest. I happen to agree with Livyjr 100%

  A.B.

[Livyjr]

Livyjr. & A.B.,

I'm sorry if I have offended you two today. 

That was not my intention. 

I agree you all know what is best for you - much better than me. 

And despite my keen interest in your conversation about your combat experiences, I will not be able to participate in the conversation.

This is a judgment call on my part and it has been a difficult call to make. 

I have thought about you guys all day. 

I feel bad for not living up to your expectations. 

I feel bad for letting you both down. 

Well, Gabrielle, it appears from your words above that I certainly AM NOT the "Great Communicator" here, if you have been left with any kind of impression that you have either offended me, or let me down IN ANY WAY AT ALL!

You have not!

And I am sincere about that!

And it is not about "combat experiences" AT ALL!

In an ideal world, those of us who saw combat would never ever think of it again, or talk about it, ever, because by OUR efforts, there never should have been another generation having to go to war.

BUT ...

That is the ideal, fanciful world, I guess, and here my old friend that I talk about would openly mock and deride the world wars as wars to end anything at all, as they were touted and advertised to be.

To the contrary, Gabrielle, for us, it is about returning home and getting beyond those experiences, and becoming a productive citizen; which you, through your own work with veterans, seem to know something about, and that makes you a part of this "dialogue", however removed from it you choose to be at any given time, for your own reasons.

But sometimes, Gabrielle, citizenship places demands on us as people, and well, then the conversation sometimes has to deal with where we are, as opposed to where we would really want to be, and that is why we have "Mr. A.B.'s Corner", with your wonderful stove, to counter-balance this thread, and its occasional "harshness".

I guess in a lot of ways, this is where we come or go to "do our work" when we are not over there next to the stove in Mr. A.B.'s Corner, relaxing our minds, and "taking a load off", for a moment, anyway.

I will say, Gabrielle, that your words do provide a "perspective" in here that is valuable to have, just as jeffmoskin's do, because neither you nor he "went to war", and so, your viewpoint comes from a totally different place than mine, or Mr. A.B.'s, and you don't know how important that is for me and all of us here in OUR America to have.

I work with a psychologist WHO IS NOT A VETERAN, at all, although he is associated with the V.A., and I am always telling him that his greatest strength as a psychologist working with combat veterans is that HE IS NOT ONE OF THEM!

I met this man when he was younger, and just out of school, and his worry in those days was that as a non-veteran, he would not be able to "relate" to us, since he knew nothing of combat.

My answer was that what in hell would I want someone who knew about combat to be talking to!

I already knew more than I ever wanted to know about that, and the last thing I needed was to be stuck in a room with somebody else like me.

I wanted someone who knew about life OUTSIDE of combat, BECAUSE WE WERE TRYING TO GET BACK TO SOMETHING, not stay stuck in something!

And now, he understands!

And I think you do, as well, Gabrielle!

SO!

Make up your own mind, of course, as to what you will do in the future, but please, do not leave because you think you might have offended me or let me down, because, IT JUST NEVER HAPPENED THAT WAY, and I think I might be one of the first to know!

[Livyjr]

Gabrielle ----- I do not have the any idea why you would think you have offended me.

I cannot speak for Livyjr although I believe I have a pretty good idea what he will say when he rolls out of bed, has his coffee and donut and gets himself awake.

I sort of think I am speaking for Livyjr and jeffmoskin as well as myself when I tell you this thread is immeasurably better with you on it.

We need your perspective, your intelligent comments, and most of all your caring.

So please do not go away.

A.B.

Well, I have rolled out of bed, I am having my coffee, and after making my last post, to Gabrielle, I have now come to this one, by Mr. A.B., and well, I think, Mr. A.B. that we are on the same page here, so how about that!

And all I can say, one more time, Gabrielle, is that IF it really is to be OUR America, then the word "OURS" has to be an all-inclusive term, or not at all, and there is the heart of the matter facing all of us today, this division that exists right now in OUR America that only seems to be getting worse, instead of better, which is why the intensity of the conversation in here might seem to be increasing.

Gabrielle, ALL each of us knows, is what we know, which in the end, is really pretty limited, so that if someone like you, with your own unique view on life, were to be left out, or excluded, then something that could have been bigger and better is, well, somehow just kind of smaller, and therefore diminshed, because of that.

And here I am going to "recommend" a book that keeps coming to mind when you come in here, Gabrielle, and it is a book maybe everyone in America should read, for the "mountain values" that are in there, possessed by an old woman of the mountains who just could be your own grandmother, and that book is entitled "Wish You Well".

I can't recall the author right now, but he was not an unknown, and with the name of the title, the book can likely be tracked down easily enough, as it is only a few years old, and it has a lot of things to "think on" packed into, as it really shows some of the "conflicts" between values and "cultures" that are actually facing us right now, here in OUR America, that cause it to be otherwise, which mean that it is not OURS at all, which is why we have this thread, to bring it back to being, "OURS"!

[Livyjr]

Dear Livyjr,

Thanks for the head's up. 

I'm glad you shared a few of your experiences with traumatic brain injury during combat here.

I can't imagine how difficult it must be for you to read about these young men coming home with blast and shrapnel related neurological injuries. 

It seems to me you must understand better than anyone what life is going to be like for these men and their families. 

Sometimes seeing a newspaper article or the television news can set off a cascade of bad memories. 

Flashbacks can be quite common in combat veterans - years after their traumatic experiences - while sitting at home watching the news about soldiers who are currently in a war zone. 

Sometimes it's necessary to take a sabbatical from that particular news story for a while, if it gets to be too much. 

A couple of personal thoughts. 

Sometimes I think it's easy to forget why we're here. 

We can get to chatting about this or that as we attempt to mentally flee the tragedies and horrors we hear about many times each day. 

And then a particular story will bring the whole mountain crushing back down on us - reviving our understanding of just how awful this all is. 

We remember why we come here to fight the horror.

And if I was going to try and summarize what this particular thread was really all about, well, I don't think I could have said it any better than Gabrielle has done, above here, and so, I am not even going to try!

I'll just borrow her words and repeat them as if they were mine, which we can do in here, as it saves a lot of time sometimes to simply say, "ME, TOO; I'm with her on this one!"

CAN WE HIDE?

SHOULD WE HIDE?

AND ....

What happens to everything that we hold near and dear, IF WE DO?

Certainly, the thought of hiding away, not having to "face reality", does have a certain degree of comfort to it, on first glance, maybe, BUT .....

DOES IT?

In Viet Nam, one night, we, that being me, and a helicopter crew that I was assigned to as an aerial sniper, got an emergency call to proceed to such-and-such grid coordinates, that a "fire fight" was in progress, there were casualties, and another helicopter sent in to give assistance had just been shot down, and so ....

Off we went, just like the "Light Brigade" in the poem or story from somewhere in my school days, and the rest of course, is simply history.

The point is that sometimes, LIFE MAKES DEMANDS on us, rather than we making demands on it, and then, WHAT DO WE DO?

As for me, that answer then and now, is really quite simple: WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE!

And there is where it starts to get complicated, doesn't it?

Then, of course, for me, it actually was quite simple; there were people wounded and in trouble, and I was not, so .....

Now, it is more complex, because we are talking about citizenship, and values, and a nation and the world, and, and and .....

BUT .....

If we hide away, and wait for it to be over, WILL IT EVER BE?

I, for one, don't think so, and hence, this thread!

LIFE, in OUR AMERICA!

For richer, for poorer, for better, for worse ......

[jeffmoskin]

And here I am going to "recommend" a book that keeps coming to mind when you come in here, Gabrielle, and it is a book maybe everyone in America should read, for the "mountain values" that are in there, possessed by an old woman of the mountains who just could be your own grandmother, and that book is entitled "Wish You Well".

by David Baldacci

here is Amazon link:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=glance&s=books

This post has been edited by jeffmoskin: Mar 6 2005, 08:55 AM

[jeffmoskin]

And as my final post in here this day, I want to "reprint" this post that I originally made back on Mother's Day of 2004, on the John Kerry Forum, and I want to dedicate this post to all those out there with loved ones in harm's way this day, as it very accurately reflects my thoughts on "WAR" and what it can and does do to OUR American families, now and for the future!

It was originally in response to a post by the daughter of a WWII veteran who had found out, when her father had died, that when he came home from "war", he had taken all his stuff, including his medals, and burned them, something she just could not understand!

WHY WOULD SOMEONE WHO EARNED "MEDALS" IN WAR BURN THEM, and everything else from that "war" as well, and never tell their own children that they were "heros"?

DEAR MOTHERS OF AMERICA, WHAT FOLLOWS IS FROM WE, YOUR CHILDREN IN AMERICA, WITH OUR HEARTS AFFLICTED BY THE HORRORS OF WAR; DELIVER US FINALLY FROM THIS EVIL, WE PRAY YOU!

"Old soldiers never die; they just fade away"

Words from a song in the days of my youth, if ever I really had one!

One of those people that I most admired in my life was an older, unprepossessing, unassuming man that I would have coffee with quite regularly, and we would chat back and forth on this or that, and sometimes we would talk in a quiet way about war and such, for this man, then in his 80's, had been drafted for one year's military service about exactly one year before Pearl Harbor, so that the day before he was to be discharged, Pearl Harbor happened, and well, you know, that was the end of his discharge.

He, like many others of that generation, because of that one day, was in for the duration, and long that was for them to be.

Being a smaller man, one day, he was singled out of his unit with a bunch of other smaller men, and they were then all taken away to a new base, where they found out that they were to be part of a brand new military concept back then, which was the "paratroop" corp that we now take so for granted.

At that time, airplanes had not been around all that long, and so parachuting into combat was an untried concept.

It was originally thought back then, because of inexperience with the concept, that men over a certain height and weight could not survive the impact of the landing, so originally, all of those "drafted" as the new paratroop army were small men like this man.

"Shrimps" and "midgets" he jokingly called them, as they were also apparently called by those around them who were not so small, especially the British in North Africa, he would say, who mocked them for their apparent lack of physical stature.

I have listened to hours of this quiet man talking to me about those experiences of learning to be a paratrooper in the early days of WWII, an airborne trooper or "sky soldier" as we Viet Nam veterans would call them, the elite of our nation's fighting forces back then.

After learning to be a paratroop, this old man, then young, of course, was made a part of the 82nd Division, now called "airborne", but at that time just emerging with a new identity from being a "straight leg", as we non-airborne "grunts" were called, infantry division.

This man was sent first to North Africa, where the battle for supremacy of the desert against Rommel and the Africa Corps of the German Army was being waged, and from there to an airborne landing in Sicily, then the D-day jump into Normandy, and then on to Berlin, and the eventual end of the war.

As a Viet Nam combat veteran, I would listen raptly as this man recounted his experiences of "his war" as he called it.

"My war" and "your war" this man would say to differentiate Viet Nam and WWII.

It is hard for me, who has 2 Purple hearts and a Silver Star from Viet Nam, to even conceive of what this man went through.

I know from personal experience that when you are under fire, that funny things happen to the passage of time, so that a day in combat can seem like a year, and a year can seem like an eternity, and this man endured the experience not for months or a year like we did in Viet Nam, but for years on end, in all kinds of places, like the desert of North Africa, to the snows and cold of Europe in the winter months, and this old man endured all of that somehow, and either never became bitter, or got over it before I met him, so that I would not even be tempted to utter a word about Viet Nam, which thank God, never got that awful cold.

Now, I know that this old man was wounded twice, because such things from war time service cannot be hidden from another veteran, and I know this man engaged in acts of heroism in that struggle that again are just about inconceivable to most of us, myself included, Silver Star and Purple Hearts notwithstanding, and yet he would never really talk about them as being anything more than what you do when you believe in something dearly enough to fight and perhaps die for it.

What really are these medals, anyway?

What, for example, is a Silver Star?

Does anyone know or really care?

I have one and it sits in a drawer, because like that old man, for me, the war is over and we are home.

It is better to look forward, rather than backwards, so the Silver Stars tarnish, and the Purple Hearts themselves too lay neglected in a drawer, although the wounds which caused them are not so kind as to simply go away and hide.

I didn't burn my medals when I came home from Viet Nam, although with all of the anger that filled me at that time, I can certainly understand the feelings of those who did, like your father in the war before mine.

There is a saying "To those who fight for it, freedom has a feeling the unprotected never learn to know" or words to that effect, and like the old man above, and perhaps your father too, to me, those words ring all too true.

What is it that we combat veterans know from this experience, and why is it we burn our medals and never say why?

I, like my friend, am now getting old, or older anyway, and after all these years, I still don't have an answer, nor for all his wisdom, did this old man I talk about.

I know from talking to this old man that I am one of the very few people that he has ever uttered a word to about his experiences in WWII, and that his own children knew none of these things about his experiences because when you have children after experiences like those, and this I do know, you just cannot bring yourself to tell your own children exactly how bad, how very ugly, the world and the people in it can be at times, and here I include us as well, because when you got off those helicopters in Viet Nam, it was not to give out hugs and kisses, I can tell you; it was to make some poor fool on the ground wish to God that you had never been born, and that of all other things, that you had never gotten on that helicopter that day in the first place, and it gets ugly from there in the recounting.

So who wants to tell their children and families afterwards that this is who their father really was, this person who could do these kinds of things and not be so sick in his soul afterwards that he would just shrivel up and die of shame on the spot?

Who wants to know that they are the off-spring of these people?

Be thankful that you knew your father for the man he was in your own life afterwards, and not who he might have been the day before, is what I would say to you as one of those like your father who will wrestle with these feelings until the day I die, and then get put away in the earth some place with my deeds in war hopefully unsung and unheralded.

There is where hope for the future springs from, from the standpoint of this combat veteran and that old man I talk about as well; not what we did as soldiers, but what instead we as soldiers hope never to see done ever again in the world, especially by our own children, even though we know in our heart of hearts that human nature don't change much, so that the cycle is likely to repeat over and over again.

Be thankful every day of your life that your father was who he was and didn't bother to talk about it.

After war, humility is not a bad thing to have.

God bless and live in peace, because I think that is really what your father would wish your memories of him to be, a man who came home and raised a family and not a man who went to war.

signed, one who thinks he might have a glimmer of knowledge as to your father's thoughts on the matter

THANK YOU, MOTHERS OF AMERICA FOR BEING THERE IN OUR TIME OF NEED. OUR BLESSINGS AND KIND THOUGHTS TO YOU ON THIS YOUR DAY!

This post, perhaps your best (and there are so many it is hard to pick just one) brought tears to my eyes.

We have always wondered, we who have never experienced the horror of war, and war is nothing if not horror, why the "Greatest Generation" came home, bought a house in the burbs, raised a family, and NEVER SPOKE A WORD about the war.

Now I understand. Thanks to you.

It reminded me of a similar situation with survivors of The Holocost. They married, had kids, went on with their lives. NEVER TALKED ABOUT THE CONCENTRATION CAMPS. They would have taken those stories to their graves were it not for one Steven Spielberg (yes, that one) who started "the Shoah Project"

He rounded up as many survivors as he could, rolled the cameras, and let them tell their stories. Thousands, no tens of thousands of stories are thus preserved, never to be lost to the grave. And yet, these survivors told their stories with the understanding that they would not be around when those stories would be heard.

I think this might be a good idea for soldiers, too, Livyjr and Mr A.B.

[Gabrielle]

The point is that sometimes, LIFE MAKES DEMANDS on us, rather than we making demands on it, and then, WHAT DO WE DO?

As for me, that answer then and now, is really quite simple: WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE!

And there is where it starts to get complicated, doesn't it?

Then, of course, for me, it actually was quite simple; there were people wounded and in trouble, and I was not, so .....

Now, it is more complex, because we are talking about citizenship, and values, and a nation and the world, and, and and .....

BUT .....

If we hide away, and wait for it to be over, WILL IT EVER BE?

I, for one, don't think so, and hence, this thread!

LIFE, in OUR AMERICA!

For richer, for poorer, for better, for worse ......

Livyjr, A.B.,
I'm very relieved to hear all is well. Seems I may have suffered a bout of loss of confidence. Thank you for continuing to be yourselves. For continuing to be supportive.

I like how you put this Livyjr. Life does make demands on us and sometimes it gets tricky. Sometimes hiding away does seem like a good idea although it usually is not.

A few days ago I started painting my house not realizing what a HUGE JOB this is! That's why my posts are lagging. I thought of you guys ALL DAY yesterday. I will post more later. Got to get back to work while the light is still good. Was painting in the half dark last night and boy can you tell in the morning!