Life in OUR America, Volume 2, The Livyjr Files Options

[Livyjr]

And here, before I get into anything else, I want to post this following story, and then talk about it for a few moments, from my perspective as a combat veteran, and what I think some of this story's impacts might be on us, THE CITIZEN POLITY, or "BODY POLITIC", here in OUR America, but before I do that, I want to relate a story I heard on ABC Radio News this morning concerning an order, or DIRECTIVE, or MANIFESTO issued by George W. Bush, allegedly, which allegedly directs the CIA to take people to SYRIA, so that the CIA can then torture them, there, where torture is allegedly both a legal as well as, an on-going practice, which George W. Bush has apparently chosen to capitalize on, so that he can allegedly have his own "enemies" tortured; perhaps for nothing more than "SPORT"!

SYRIA!

NOW?

Where, oh where, have we heard the name "SYRIA" before?

And in connection with what?

Human rights violations, wasn't it?

Isn't the Bush Co. making a real big noise about HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS in SYRIA, these days, likely to deflect attention from what it, the BUSH CO. REGIME, is doing in Iraq?

And now, it turns out that the Bush Co. allegedly is using those human rights violations alleged to be on-going in SYRIA as an excuse to have the CIA bring other people there so they can be tortured as well.

Plus Egypt, but the Bush Co. isn't making noise about Egypt; only about SYRIA.

What absolute and transparent hypocrisy!

DE-MOCKERY is George W. Bush!

International News

Francesco Toiati / AP

The coffin of Italian security agent Nicola Calipari is carried Sunday inside the Vittoriano Tomb of the Unknown Soldier monument in Rome, where it will lie in state. Calipari died when U.S. troops opened fire on the car he was traveling in with the freed Italian hostage Giuliana Sgrena.

March 6: The Italian journalist held captive in Iraq, then shot by U.S. forces after her release, tells her side of the story.

"Wounded Italian reporter recalls ordeal - Sgrena sharply disputes U.S. version of events"

The Associated Press
Updated: 11:52 a.m. ET March 6, 2005

ROME - The Italian journalist wounded by American troops in Iraq after her release by insurgents rejected the U.S. military’s account of the shooting and declined Sunday to rule out the possibility she was deliberately targeted.

The White House said it was a “horrific accident” and promised a full investigation.

Meanwhile, an autopsy performed on the agent who died trying to save Giuliana Sgrena reportedly showed he was struck in the temple by a single round and died instantly as the car carrying Sgrena sped to the Baghdad airport.

Friday’s shooting that wounded the 56-year-old journalist and killed Italian intelligence officer Nicola Calipari as they were celebrating her freedom has fueled anti-American sentiment in a country where people are deeply opposed to U.S. policy in Iraq.

Italian reaction

But government officials indicated the shootings would not affect the decision by Italian Premier Silvio Berlusconi — a strong U.S. ally — to maintain 3,000 troops in Iraq to help secure peace in the country.

“The military mission must carry on because it consolidates democracy and liberty in Iraq,” Communications Minister Maurizio Gasparri was quoted as saying by the ANSA news agency.

“On the other hand, we must control — but not block — the presence of civilians and journalists, who must observe rules and behavior to reduce the risks.”

Sgrena, who works for the communist daily Il Manifesto, did not rule out that she was targeted, saying the United States likely disapproved of Italy’s methods to secure her release, although she did not elaborate.

“The fact that the Americans don’t want negotiations to free the hostages is known,” Sgrena told Sky TG24 television by telephone, her voice hoarse and shaky.

“The fact that they do everything to prevent the adoption of this practice to save the lives of people held hostages, everybody knows that."

"So I don’t see why I should rule out that I could have been the target.”

Italian officials have not provided details about the negotiations leading to Sgrena’s release Friday after a month in captivity, but Agriculture Minister Giovanni Alemanno was quoted as saying it was “very likely” a ransom was paid.

U.S. officials object to ransoms, saying it encourages further kidnappings.

White House counselor Dan Bartlett said Sunday the shootings were a “horrific accident” and pointed out that President Bush had called Berlusconi to offer condolences and promise a full investigation.

“As you know, in a situation where there is a live combat zone, particularly this road to the airport, has been a notorious area for car bombs, that people are making split-second decisions, and it’s critically important that we get the facts before we make judgments,” Bartlett said on CNN’s “Late Edition.”

The U.S. military has said the car Sgrena was riding in was speeding, and Americans used hand and arm signals, flashing white lights and warning shots to get it to stop at the roadblock.

But in an interview with Italian La 7 TV, Sgrena said, “There was no bright light, no signal.”

She also said the car was traveling at “regular speed.”

Sgrena also recalled how Calipari, who led negotiations for her release, died after throwing himself over her when the shooting broke out as they were celebrating her freedom on the way to the airport.

'I felt his last breath'

“I remember only fire,” she wrote in Il Manifesto, which fiercely opposed the war in Iraq.

“At that point a rain of fire and bullets came at us, forever silencing the happy voices from a few minutes earlier.”

Sgrena said the driver began shouting that they were Italian, then “Nicola Calipari dove on top of me to protect me and immediately, and I mean immediately, I felt his last breath as he died on me.”

Suddenly, she said, she remembered her captors’ words, when they warned her “to be careful because the Americans don’t want you to return.”

Sgrena wrote that her captors warned her as she was about to be released not to signal her presence to anyone, because “the Americans might intervene.”

She said her captors blindfolded her and drove her to a location where she was turned over to agents and they set off for the airport.

'Aggressive' investigation promised

Calipari’s body was returned to Italy late Saturday, and Berlusconi and President Carlo Azeglio Ciampi joined Calipari’s wife, mother and two children at Rome’s Ciampino Airport to receive it.

An autopsy was performed Sunday, and ANSA quoted doctors as saying Calipari was struck in the temple by a single round and died instantly.

The body lay in state at Rome’s Vittoriano monument and a state funeral was planned for Monday.

Calipari was to be awarded the gold medal of valor for his heroism.

Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld called Italy’s defense minister, Antonio Martino, “to express the sorrow of the American administration, and his own personal sorrow for the death of Nicola Calipari,” Italy’s Defense Ministry said in a statement.

The U.S. military has promised an “aggressive” investigation.

Italian military officials said two other agents were wounded, but U.S. officials said it was only one.

Iraqi politician Younadem Kana told Belgian state TV Saturday evening that he had “nonofficial” information that a $1 million ransom was paid for Sgrena’s release, the Apcom news agency reported from Brussels.

The report could not be confirmed.

Sgrena told Sky TG24 she had no intention of returning to Iraq.

Her captors, she said, made it clear that “they do not want witnesses and we are all perceived as possible spies.”

Sgrena was abducted Feb. 4 by gunmen who blocked her car outside Baghdad University.

She was later shown in a video pleading for her life and demanding that all foreign troops — including Italian forces — leave Iraq.

[Livyjr]

What absolute and transparent hypocrisy!

DE-MOCKERY is George W. Bush!

International News

Francesco Toiati / AP

The coffin of Italian security agent Nicola Calipari is carried Sunday inside the Vittoriano Tomb of the Unknown Soldier monument in Rome, where it will lie in state.

Calipari died when U.S. troops opened fire on the car he was traveling in with the freed Italian hostage Giuliana Sgrena.

March 6: The Italian journalist held captive in Iraq, then shot by U.S. forces after her release, tells her side of the story. 

"Wounded Italian reporter recalls ordeal - Sgrena sharply disputes U.S. version of events"

The Associated Press
Updated: 11:52 a.m. ET March 6, 2005

ROME - The Italian journalist wounded by American troops in Iraq after her release by insurgents rejected the U.S. military’s account of the shooting and declined Sunday to rule out the possibility she was deliberately targeted.

The White House said it was a “horrific accident” and promised a full investigation.

Meanwhile, an autopsy performed on the agent who died trying to save Giuliana Sgrena reportedly showed he was struck in the temple by a single round and died instantly as the car carrying Sgrena sped to the Baghdad airport.

Friday’s shooting that wounded the 56-year-old journalist and killed Italian intelligence officer Nicola Calipari as they were celebrating her freedom has fueled anti-American sentiment in a country where people are deeply opposed to U.S. policy in Iraq.

I first heard this story the other day, and I didn't do a thing with it right away, due to the press of other things that were going on at the time, BUT ..

Most certainly, I caught the news, and it set me to wondering .......

WHAT, exactly, is going on, over in Iraq, and WHY ARE WE THERE, COMMITTING APPARENT MURDERS?

WHAT IS GOING ON, HERE?

What policy is this that has OUR military murdering people in IRAQ, WITH IMPUNITY?

WHAT HAS GEORGE W. BUSH UNLEASHED ON THE WORLD?

For, make no mistake about it, GEORGE W. BUSH IS THE COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF, and so, this blood is on his hands, IF this is HIS policy being carried out, which it certainly appears to be!

AND FOR WHAT?

Somebody please tell me, for I really want to know!

WHY ARE AMERICAN MILITARY TROOPS MURDERING PEOPLE IN IRAQ?

WHAT HAS GEORGE W. BUSH UNLEASHED ON THE WORLD?

WHAT EVIL DOES THIS MAN DO?

AND WHY?

[Livyjr]

WHAT HAS GEORGE W. BUSH UNLEASHED ON THE WORLD?

WHAT EVIL DOES THIS MAN DO?

AND WHY?

What follows here is the first of series of letters written by John Dickinson in 1767-8.

In them, he attacks British policy towards the American colonies.

Nine years later, based in part on this series of letters, the Declaration of Independence was signed, and the words above by Thomas Paine were penned, AND NOW WE ARE HERE!

And but for the difference in time between when this letter was actually written, and now, some 238 years, this letter in many ways could be one that was being by one of us in OUR America today!

I post it to show from whence we have come, as American citizens, from those times to these that we are now in, and especially, from whence has come this thing of "LIBERTY" that we do talk of in here, these days.

It is said that those who fail to learn from history are destined to experience its pitfalls, over and over, and these days, with the tyrant George W. Bush in power in OUR world, I wonder if that will be us.

Read on and form you own opinions, then:

My DEAR COUNTRYMEN,

I am a farmer, settled after a variety of fortunes near the banks of the river Delaware, in the province of Pennsylvania.

I received a liberal education and have been engaged in the busy scenes of life, but am now convinced, that a man may be as happy without bustle as with it.

My farm is small, my servants are few and good, I have a little money at interest, I wish for no more, my employment in my own affairs is easy, and with a contented, grateful mind, undisturbed by worldly hopes or fears relating to myself, I am completing the number of days allotted to me by divine goodness.

Being generally master of my time, I spend a good deal of it in a library, which I think the most valuable part of my small estate; and being acquainted with two or three gentlemen of abilities and learning who honour me with their friendship, I have acquired, I believe, a greater knowledge in history and the laws and constitution of my country, than is generally attained by men of my class, many of them not being so fortunate as I have been in the opportunities of getting information.

From my infancy I was taught to love humanity and liberty.

Enquiry and experience have since confirmed my reverence for the lessons then given me, by convincing me more fully of, their truth and excellence.

Benevolence towards mankind excites wishes for their welfare, and such wishes endear the means of fulfilling them.

These can be found in liberty only, and therefore her sacred cause ought to be espoused by every man on every occasion, to the utmost of his power.

As a charitable but poor person does not withhold his mite because he cannot relieve all the distresses of the miserable, so should not any honest man suppress his sentiments concerning freedom, however small their influence is likely to be.

Perhaps he may touch some wheel that will have an effect greater than he could reasonably expect.

These being my sentiments, I am encouraged to offer to you, my countrymen, my thoughts on some late transactions that appear to me to be of the utmost importance to you.

Conscious of my own defects, I have waited some time, in expectation of seeing the subject treated by persons much better qualified for the task; but being therein disappointed, and apprehensive that longer delays will be injurious, I venture at length to request the attention of the public, praying that these lines may be read with the same zeal for the happiness of British America, with which they were wrote.

With a good deal of surprize I have observed that little notice has been taken of an Act of Parliament, as injurious in its principle to the liberties of these colonies, as the Stamp Act was: I mean the act for suspending the legislation of New York.

[N.B. This refers to the Quartering Act of 1765 (5 Geo. III, C. 33) which required colonial local authorities to provide the king's troops with barracks or billets, and to furnish them gratis with candles, firing, bedding, cooking utensils, salt and vinegar, and five pints of small beer or cider, or a gill of rum per man, per diem.

The New York Assembly, on 3 July 1766, voted to fulfil all these requirements, save the salt, vinegar, and liquor, for about eleven hundred men.

This was deemed insufficient by the Lords of Trade, and, as the Assembly refused to incur an additional "ruinous and insupportable" expense, Parliament, by 7 Geo.III, c. 59, declared all Acts, &c., of the New York Assembly to be null and void until it should comply in full with the Quartering Act.

The Assembly of 1769 gave in.]

The Assembly of that Government complied with a former Act of Parliament, requiring certain provisions to be made for the troops in America, in every particular, I think, except the articles of salt, pepper, and vinegar.

In my opinion they acted imprudently, considering all circumstances, in not complying so far as would have given satisfaction, as several colonies did.

But my dislike of their conduct in that instance has not blinded me so much that I cannot Plainly perceive that they have been punished in a manner pernicious to American freedom, and justly alarming to all the colonies.

If the British Parliament has a legal authority to issue an order that we shall furnish a single article for the troops here, and to compel obedience to that order, they have the same right to issue an order for us to supply those troops with arms, cloths, and every necessary; and to compel obedience to that order also; in short, to lay any burthens they please upon us.

What is this but taxing us at a certain sum, and leaving to us only the manner of raising it?

How is this mode more tolerable than the Stamp Act?

Would that Act have appeared more pleasing to Americans, if being ordered thereby to raise the sum total of the taxes, the mighty privilege had been left to them, of saying how much should be paid for an instrument of writing on paper, and how much for another on parchment?

An Act of Parliament commanding us to do a certain thing, if it has any validity, is a tax upon us for the expence that accrues in complying with it; and for this reason, I believe, every colony on the continent, that chose to give a mark of their respect for Great Britain in complying with the Act relating to the troops, cautiously avoided the mention of that Act, lest their conduct should be attributed to its supposed obligation.

The matter being thus stated, the Assembly of New York either had, or had not a right to refuse submission to that Act.

If they had, and I imagine no American will say they had not, then the Parliament had no right to compel them to execute it.

If they had not that right they had no right to punish them for not executing it; and therefore no right to attempts as a mutual inattention to the interests of each other.

To divide and thus to destroy is the first political maxim in attacking those who are powerful by their union.

He certainly is not a wise man who folds his arms and reposes himself at home, viewing with unconcern the flames that have invaded his neighbour's house, without using any endeavours to extinguish them.

When Mr. Hampden's ship money cause for three shillings and fourpence was tried, all the people of England, with anxious expectations, interested themselves in the important decision; and when the slightest point touching the freedom of one colony is agitated, I earnestly wish that all the rest may with equal ardour support their sister.

Very much may be said on this subject; but I hope more at present is unnecessary.

With concern I have observed that two Assemblies of this Province have sat and adjourned, without taking any notice of this Act.

It may perhaps be asked, what would have been proper for them to do?

I am by no means fond of inflammatory measures; I detest them.

I should be sorry that any thing should be done which might justly displease our sovereign or our mother country.

But a firm, modest exertion of a free spirit should never be wanting on public occasions.

It appears to me that it would have been sufficient for the Assembly to have ordered our agents to represent to the King's ministers, their sense of the Suspending Act, and to pray for its repeal.

Thus we should have borne our testimony against it; and might therefore reasonably expect that, on a like occasion, we might receive the same assistance from the other colonies

Concordia res parva cres"expletive deleted".
Small things grow great by concord.

A FARMER.

[Livyjr]

And before my next "discussion", I want to post this second post with respect to where OUR concept of "LIBERTY" in OUR America has come from:

Cato's Letters
Cato's Letters in the news

http://www.worldhistory.com/wiki/C/Cato's-Letters.htm

The essays called Cato's Letters were written by two Englishmen, concealing their identities with the honored ancient Roman name of Cato.

They are considered a seminal work in the tradition of the Commonwealthmen.

Later their identities were revealed as John Trenchard and Thomas Gordon.

Their 144 essays were published from 1720 to 1723, originally in the London Journal, later in the British Journal.

These newspaper essays condemning tyranny and advancing principles of freedom of conscience and freedom of speech, were a main vehicle for spreading the concepts that had been developed by John Locke.

The Letters were collected and printed as Essays on Liberty, Civil and Religious.

A measure of their influence is attested by six editions printed by 1755.

A generation later their arguments immensely influenced American colonists, where it is estimated that half the private libraries in the American Colonies held bound volumes of Cato's Letters on their shelves.

The prototypical 'Cato' was Cato the Younger (95 - 46 BC), the implacable foe of Julius Caesar and a famously stubborn champion of republican principles.

[Livyjr]

And before my next "discussion", I want to post this second post with respect to where OUR concept of "LIBERTY" in OUR America has come from:

Cato's Letters

The essays called Cato's Letters were written by two Englishmen, concealing their identities with the honored ancient Roman name of Cato.

They are considered a seminal work in the tradition of the Commonwealthmen.

Their 144 essays were published from 1720 to 1723, originally in the London Journal, later in the British Journal.

These newspaper essays condemning tyranny and advancing principles of freedom of conscience and freedom of speech, were a main vehicle for spreading the concepts that had been developed by John Locke.

A generation later their arguments immensely influenced American colonists, where it is estimated that half the private libraries in the American Colonies held bound volumes of Cato's Letters on their shelves.

SO!

1720!

And what is that, now, some 265 years ago, that these two Englishmen, the so-called "Commonwealthmen", or maybe even "radical Whigs", wrote this series of essays, much in a manner similar to that which is occurring in here, in this Forum; a series of essays ON THE ROOTS AND ORIGINS OF OUR PRESENT-DAY LIBERTIES, that were to figure so prominently in the events surrounding OUR break from tyrannical England in 1776 which leads us right on down to OUR present times, where the subject under discussion once again in OUR America is OUR LIBERTY, and whether George W. Bush can act in any way against us to curtail that LIBERTY, or to remove it from us completely, as he argues he can do in this case where he has had this American citizen held for some years now in a Navy Brig on no charges whatsoever, OTHER THAN GEORGE W. BUSH WANTS IT TO BE SO!

In another thread, "Mr. A.B.'s Corner" to be exact, Callicles talks of learning about the Constitution of OUR America in one of his school classes, and he remarks how dry the history of that document was, when taught to him in the manner that it was, where he went to school, which I believe was in the mid-west, which was not really involved in what occurred during the American Revolution, as areas west of say, Pittsburgh, were not to become settled and part of the United States for some time after the American Revolution!

Because of that, I think for many people west of Pittsburg, Pennsylvania, the subject of Revolutionary American History is somewhat of a different subject, in terms of living history, than it is to ME, who lives right in the heart of where a lot of it actually took place, including where the Acts of the New York State legislature were actually suspended by the English Parliament, in what was called the "Suspending Act" in the Farmer's Letter, above.

I am where the strains of "Yankee Doodle" were first heard in OUR America, being shrilled on fifes, to muster the Continental troops on the banks of Hudson's River, near Fort Crailo in present-day Rensselaer, New York.

I grew up, from my earliest years, with Cato's letters, and the Suspending Act, and the Farmer's Letters, as very real things, living things, IN MY OWN AMERICAN HERITAGE, and, I presumed, perhaps wrongfully, in the heritage of every American, which just might not be so, BECAUSE of regional differences in what history actually occurred, here and there in OUR America, which then leads to regional differences in how local history is taught in OUR America, which is as a result of OUR America being such a big place, with so many different versions of what "local history" is really all about!

Which all serves to raise some questions here:

Where does LIBERTY come from, and HOW LONG has the concept of LIBERTY been a part of OUR political heritage?

Forever, I would say, or certainly as far back as 1720, when the "Commonwealthmen" were writing "Cato's Letters"!

SO!

What does any of this mean, to any of us?

Well, to me, it is OUR political heritage, for one, that is at stake here, especially right now, where George W. Bush and his pack of Republicans appear to be dead-set on greatly altering OUR traditional form of government in a manner which suits him and them gaining and holding much more power over us, than OUR Constitution affords him the right to do, as was just pointed out once more again to him, and his, by a Federal District Court Justice in a post which I made in here a few days back!

More and more, people are noticing a similar thing to what I am noticing; that under George W. Bush, we have actually cycled right back to the time of OUR nation's own founding, where tyranny was rampant, and where LIBERTY, traditional LIBERTY, was at stake, as it is again, right now, as I am writing these words, here in OUR America.

And it seems that in ALL OF OUR CONGRESS, which is supposed to be representing OUR interests, and not those of a small and exclusive group that constitutes the core of the Republican Party, ONLY ONE OLD MAN IN OUR CONGRESS, Senator Robert Byrd, seems to have any inkling at all of what is going on with this Bush Co. regime, and the absolute threat that this Bush Co. regime represents TO OUR TRADITIONAL LIBERTIES!

ONE OLD MAN!

And then, of course, there is us!

Hence, this thread!

Life, in OUR America!

And how much longer will it be, before it no longer is?

Stay tuned!

Developments as they happen!

Live!

Here in OUR America!

[Livyjr]

I am where the strains of "Yankee Doodle" were first heard in OUR America, being shrilled on fifes, to muster the Continental troops on the banks of Hudson's River, near Fort Crailo in present-day Rensselaer, New York.

I grew up, from my earliest years, with Cato's letters, and the Suspending Act, and the Farmer's Letters, as very real things, living things, IN MY OWN AMERICAN HERITAGE, and, I presumed, perhaps wrongfully, in the heritage of every American, which just might not be so, BECAUSE of regional differences in what history actually occurred, here and there in OUR America, which then leads to regional differences in how local history is taught in OUR America, which is as a result of OUR America being such a big place, with so many different versions of what "local history" is really all about!

Which all serves to raise some questions here:

Where does LIBERTY come from, and HOW LONG has the concept of LIBERTY been a part of OUR political heritage?

Forever, I would say, or certainly as far back as 1720, when the "Commonwealthmen" were writing "Cato's Letters"!

SO!

What does any of this mean, to any of us?

CATO'S LETTERS

http://www.skidmore.edu/~tkuroda/gh322/onl322.htm

No. 15 Of Freedom of Speech: That the same is inseparable from Publick Liberty

SIR, Without Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom!

And no such Thing as publick Liberty, without Freedom of Speech!

Which is the Right of every Man, as far as by it he does not hurt and controul the Right of another; and this is the only Check which it ought to suffer, the only Bounds which it ought to know.

This sacred Privilege is so essential to free Government, that the Security of Property; and the Freedom of Speech, always go together; and in those wretched Countries where a Man cannot call his Tongue his own, he can scarce call any Thing else his own.

Whoever would overthrow the Liberty of the Nation, must begin by subduing the Freedom of Speech; a Thing terrible to publick Traytors.

This Secret was so well known to the Court of King Charles I that his wicked Ministry procured a Proclamation to forbid the People to talk of Parliaments, which those Traytors had laid aside.

To assert the undoubted Right of the Subject, and defend his Majesty's Legal Prerogative, was called Disaffection, and punished as Sedition.

Nay, people were forbid to talk of Religion in their Families: For the Priests had combined with the Ministers to cook up Tyranny, and suppress Truth and the Law.

While the late King James, when Duke of York, went avowedly to Mass; Men were fined, imprisoned, and undone, for saying that he was a Papist: And, that King Charles II, might live more securely a Papist, there was an Act of Parliament made, declaring it Treason to say that he was one.

That Men ought to speak well of their Governors is true, while their Governors deserve to be well spoken of; but to do publick Mischief, without hearing of it, is only the Prerogative and Felicity of Tyranny!

A free People will be shewing that they are so, by their Freedom of Speech.

The Administration of Government is nothing else, but the Attendance of the Trustees of the People upon the Interest and Affairs of the People.

And as it is the Part and Business of the People, for whose Sake alone all publick Matters are, or ought to be, transacted, to see whether they be well or ill transacted; so it is the Interest, and ought to be the Ambition, of all honest Magistrates, to have their Deeds openly examined, and publickly scanned:

Only the wicked Governors of Men dread what is said of them; ....

Freedom of Speech is ever the Symptom, as well as the Effect, of good Government.

In old Rome, all was left to the Judgment and Pleasure of the People; who examined the publick Proceedings with such Discretion, and censured those who administered them with such Equity and Mildness, that in the Space of Three Hundred Years, not Five publick Ministers suffered unjustly.

Indeed, whenever the Commons proceeded to Violence, the Great Ones had been the Aggressors ....

The best Princes have ever encouraged and promoted Freedom of Speech; they knew that upright Measures would defend themselves, and that all upright Men would defend them.

Tacitus, speaking of the Reign of some of the Princes above mention'd, says with Extasy, Rara temporum felicitate, ubi sentire quae velis, & quae sentias dicere liceat:

A blessed Time, when you might think what you would, and speak what you thought! ...

I doubt not but old Spencer and his Son, who were the chief Ministers and Betrayers of Edward II would have been very glad to have stopped the Mouths of all the honest Men in England.

They dreaded to be called Traytors, because they were Traytors.

And I dare say, Queen Elizabeth's Walsingham, who deserved no Reproaches, feared none.

Misrepresentation of public Measures is easily overthrown by representing publick Measures truly!

When they are honest, they ought to be publickly known, that they may be publickly commended!

But if they be knavish or pernicious, they ought to be publickly exposed, in order to be publickly detested.

To assert, that King James was a Papist and a Tyrant, was only so far hurtful to him, as it was true of him; and if the Earl of Stafford had not deserved to be impeached, he need not have feared a Bill of Attainder.

If our Directors and their Confederates be not such Knaves as the World thinks then, let them prove to all the world, that the World thinks wrong, and that they are guilty of none of those Villainies which all the World lays to their Charge.

Others too, who would be thought to have no Part of their Guilt, must, before they are thought innocent, shew that they did all that was in their Power to prevent that Guilt, and to check their Proceedings.

Freedom of Speech is the great Bulwark of Liberty; they prosper and die together: And it is the Terror of Traytors and Oppressors, and a barrier against them.

It produces excellent Writers, and encourages Men of fine Genius.

Tacitus tells us, that the Roman Commonwealth bred great and numerous Authors, who writ with equal Boldness and Eloquence:

But when it was enslaved, those great Wits were no more. - ....

Tyranny had usurped the Place of Equality, which is the Soul of Liberty, and destroyed publick Courage.

The Minds of Men, terrified by unjust Power, degenerated into all the Vilenes[s] and Methods of Servitude:

Abject Sycophancy and blind Submission grew the only means of Preferment, and indeed of Safety;

Men durst not open their Mouths, but to flatter ....

All Ministers, therefore, who were Oppressors, or intended to be Oppressors, have been loud in their Complaints against Freedom of Speech, and the License of the Press; and always restrained, or endeavoured to restrain, both.

In consequence of this, they have brow-beaten Writers, punished them violently, and against Law, and burnt their Works.

By all which they shewed how much Truth alarmed them, and how much they were at Enmity with Truth.

There is a famous instance of this in Tacitus.

He tells us, that Cremutius Cordus, having in his Annals praised Brutus and Cassius, gave Offence to Sejanus, First Minister, and to some inferior Sycophants in the Court of Tiberius; who, conscious of their own Characters, took the Praise bestowed on every worthy Roman, to be so many Reproaches pointed at themselves:

They therefore complain of the Book to the Senate; which, being now only the Machine of Tyranny, condemned it to be burnt.

But this did not prevent its spreading. - Libros cremandos censuere Patres; sed manserunt occutati & editi:

Being censured, it was the more sought after.

From hence, says Tacitus, we may wonder at the Stupidity of those Statesmen, who hope to extinguish, by the Terror of their Power, the Memory of their Actions; for quite otherwise, the Punishment of good Writers gains Credit to their Writings:

Nam contra, punitis ingeniis, gliscit auctoritas.

Nor did ever any Government, who practised impolitick Severity, get any thing by it, but Infamy to themselves, and Renown to those who suffered under it.

This also is an Observation of Tacitus: ....

Freedom of Speech, therefore, being of such infinite Importance to the Preservation of Liberty, every one who loves Liberty ought to encourage Freedom of Speech.

Hence it is that I, living in a country of Liberty, and under the best Prince upon Earth, shall take this very favourable Opportunity of serving Mankind, by warning them of the hideous Mischiefs that they will suffer, if every corrupt and wicked Men shall hereafter get Possession of any State, and the Power of betraying their Master ....

Valerius Maximus tells us, that Lentulus Marcellinus, the Roman Consul, having complained, in a popular Assembly, of the overgrown Power of Pompey; the whole People answered him with a Shout of Approbation: Upon which the Consul told them, Shout on, Gentlemen, shout on, and use those bold Signs of Liberty while you may; for I do not know long they will be allowed you.

God be thanked, we Englishmen have neither lost our Liberties, nor are in Danger of losing them.

Let us always cherish this matchless Blessing, almost peculiar to ourselves; that our Posterity may, many Ages hence, ascribe their Freedom to our Zeal.

The Defence of Liberty is a noble, a heavenly Office; which can only be performed where Liberty is:

For, as the same Valerius Maximus observes, Quid ergo Libertas sine Catone?

Non magnis quam Cato sine Libertate.

February 4, 1720

[jeffmoskin]

WHAT, exactly, is going on, over in Iraq, and WHY ARE WE THERE, COMMITTING APPARENT MURDERS?

1. George W. Bush is there to control the oil. And to kill anyone who intereferes with that mission.

2. Refer to item #1.

[Livyjr]

And before my next "discussion", I want to post this second post with respect to where OUR concept of "LIBERTY" in OUR America has come from:

Cato's Letters

http://www.worldhistory.com/wiki/C/Cato's-Letters.htm

The essays called Cato's Letters were written by two Englishmen, concealing their identities with the honored ancient Roman name of Cato.

Their 144 essays were published from 1720 to 1723, originally in the London Journal, later in the British Journal.

These newspaper essays condemning tyranny and advancing principles of freedom of conscience and freedom of speech, were a main vehicle for spreading the concepts that had been developed by John Locke.

A generation later their arguments immensely influenced American colonists, where it is estimated that half the private libraries in the American Colonies held bound volumes of Cato's Letters on their shelves.

CATO'S LETTERS

http://www.skidmore.edu/~tkuroda/gh322/onl322.htm

No. 15 Of Freedom of Speech: That the same is inseparable from Publick Liberty

SIR, Without Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom!

And no such Thing as publick Liberty, without Freedom of Speech!

Which is the Right of every Man, as far as by it he does not hurt and controul the Right of another; and this is the only Check which it ought to suffer, the only Bounds which it ought to know.

This sacred Privilege is so essential to free Government, that the Security of Property; and the Freedom of Speech, always go together; and in those wretched Countries where a Man cannot call his Tongue his own, he can scarce call any Thing else his own.

Whoever would overthrow the Liberty of the Nation, must begin by subduing the Freedom of Speech; a Thing terrible to publick Traytors.

Valerius Maximus tells us, that Lentulus Marcellinus, the Roman Consul, having complained, in a popular Assembly, of the overgrown Power of Pompey; the whole People answered him with a Shout of Approbation:

Upon which the Consul told them, Shout on, Gentlemen, shout on, and use those bold Signs of Liberty while you may; for I do not know long they will be allowed you.

Let us always cherish this matchless Blessing, almost peculiar to ourselves;

that our Posterity may, many Ages hence, ascribe their Freedom to our Zeal.

The Defence of Liberty is a noble, a heavenly Office; which can only be performed where Liberty is:

February 4, 1720

Dear Livyjr.,
A couple of personal thoughts.

Sometimes I think it's easy to forget why we're here. 

We can get to chatting about this or that as we attempt to  mentally flee the tragedies and horrors we hear about many times each day. 

And then a particular story will bring the whole mountain crushing back down on us - reviving our understanding of just how awful this all is. 

We remember why we come here to fight the horror.

We remember that spark in ourselves that cannot be extinguished, that refuses to "go gently into that good night," that has been given a reprieve, to continue our path here on earth, because our work is not yet finished. 

I wanted so much to pop into A.B.'s corner last night and ask you and Jeff and A.B. and the others there some questions about how you felt/how you coped with the knowledge that our government/corporate elites were so incestuously linked and crooked when you first found out.

As for me, Gabrielle, I was taught from my very earliest days that they always likely were so, incestuously linked, that is, and right on back at least to the days of Rome, itself, so that they always likely WOULD BE SO, and that it was MY DUTY as an American citizen to act, and responsibly, and knowledgably, so as to have it NOT BE SO, in my lifetime, at which time, the time of my passing, whenever that was to be, then it would be the responsibility of the succeeding generation, who my generation had an obligation to, in terms of teaching by way of example, just as the generation before me, had a responsibility to me, to make sure that I knew not only what liberty was, but where it came from, and how, and why, and that it was my responsibility as an American citizen to do my own utmost to preserve it, for those succeeding generations which were to come after me and mine!

The price of liberty is eternal vigilence, indeed; and "eternal" is actually quite a bit longer than five or ten minutes!

"DO NOT ASK WHAT YOUR COUNTRY CAN DO FOR YOU!"

"Ask, rather, what you can do for your country!"

Words of President John F. Kennedy which I heard with my own ears, and words which never had to be explained, to me, at least, because in some form or other, I had been hearing similar all of my life, short as it may have been at that time!

Responsibility!

Each of us was to have it, in equal measure, and none of us were to shirk it, which of course, I believed in, but naively so, perhaps, as Cato's Letters bring out above!

It is OUR tendency, as human beings, to think good of OUR neighbors, until such time as they no longer deserve such good thoughts, and it is OUR further nature to think that such a time will never come, and if we are blessed in OUR neighbors, such will be the case.

BUT .....

It always goes back to POWER!

And as a child, you are already observing that, as you observe the people around you, and their relationships with each other, in your presence.

POWER will always act, and it always does, or attempts to, usurp the perogatives of LIBERTY!

Power, to grow, must extinguish liberty as it does, and hence, we have OUR American Constitutional concept of "separation of powers", with its emphasis on "checks and balances", which, of course, IS OURS TO ENFORCE, on OUR government, 24/7!

That is why the image of that pot-bellied stove and those men around it over in "A.B.'s Corner" is such a powerful metaphor to older Americans like me, because as a boy, I was first exposed to AMERICAN politics, by the old men who sat around such stoves and discussed life, here in OUR America.

When I was young, and likely you as well, Gabrielle, the "old folks" sitting around those public stoves dated back to the late-1800's, and the time before radio, or television or phones, and so, to me, anyway, their minds had been developed in a manner much different than that of people of today, and I always think that made them in many ways "sharper" than people of today really are, where so much of our "thinking" is done for us by machines, such as these computers, and of course, the ubiquitous television, which is to me almost a running sewer anymore that I refuse to have "outfall" into the sanctity of my home, to possibly pollute it forever with the hateful and baleful "bad energy" that lurks therein in such large measure these days in OUR America.

We like to complement ourselves on being so educated today, especially the young generations, but I wonder, are we really, especially when compared to the authors of Cato's Letters, the "Commonwealthmen" who were in some large part the source of OUR notions of liberty in this nation at the time of its founding!

We don't seem to have "original" political thought these days!

Instead, it seems more pandering to special interests, and the mass of the "body politic" seems to not care!

Hence we have the continuing recurrence of this phenomena that you ask about above, which is not at all new, this linkage of our government/corporate "elites" that seems and often is, quite crooked, as it has been since the days of Rome!

And who is to blame when it occurs?

I for one, would say that we are!

YES!

In a Republic such as OURS is, where the government is representative of the people, corruption in government would seem to have to be a reflection of corruption in the body politic itself, and so, we have only ourselves to blame, for what we have, in terms of this incestuous relationship that you ask about, above.

Those are my thoughts, anyway, on the subject, for what they are worth.

[Livyjr]

1. George W. Bush is there to control the oil.

And to kill anyone who intereferes with that mission.

2. Refer to item #1.

And is that ever getting to be more and more apparent, with each day that passes, and each new revelation about the abuses of power of this despotic, tyrannical regime that comes to light each day, such as this double-standard with respect to SYRIA, where George W. Bush and Condomenleeza Rice publicly berate them for alleged human rights violations, but privately appear to rely upon them, because of these same human rights violations, as a safe haven for George W. Bush to be able to openly torture his political enemies, which one day soon, just might be all of us in here, if he continues to have his way with the continued repression and revocation of liberty here in this America of OURS, and this world, as well!

Time to start a RECALL GEORGE W. BUSH campaign, here in OUR America, as was the case with getting Millhouse "Tricky Dick" Nixxon and Spiro "Spiggy" Agnew and John Mitchell and that crowd out of office back in the "Watergate Scandal" days!

RECALL GEORGE W. BUSH!

He is un-American, un-patriotic, and a grave danger to OUR American way of life!

Pass it on!

[Livyjr]

And is that ever getting to be more and more apparent, with each day that passes, and each new revelation about the abuses of power of this despotic, tyrannical regime that comes to light each day, such as this double-standard with respect to SYRIA, where George W. Bush and Condomenleeza Rice publicly berate them for alleged human rights violations, but privately appear to rely upon them, because of these same human rights violations, as a safe haven for George W. Bush to be able to openly torture his political enemies, which one day soon, just might be all of us in here, if he continues to have his way with the continued repression and revocation of liberty here in this America of OURS, and this world, as well!

Time to start a RECALL GEORGE W. BUSH campaign, here in OUR America, as was the case with getting Millhouse "Tricky Dick" Nixxon and Spiro "Spiggy" Agnew and John Mitchell and that crowd out of office back in the "Watergate Scandal" days!

RECALL GEORGE W. BUSH!

He is un-American, un-patriotic, and a grave danger to OUR American way of life!

Pass it on!

"Officials defend shadowy program - Bush administration says safeguards are in place to prevent torture of terror suspects sent to foreign prisons by CIA, but ex-detainees say they were brutalized; rights groups concerned"

By DOUGLAS JEHL and DAVID JOHNSTON, New York Times
First published: Sunday, March 6, 2005

WASHINGTON -- The Bush administration's secret program to transfer scores of suspected terrorists to foreign countries to be imprisoned and interrogated has been carried out by the Central Intelligence Agency, under broad authority that has allowed the agency to act without case-by-case approval from the White House or the State or Justice departments, according to current and former government officials.

The unusually expansive authority for the CIA to operate independently since the September 2001 attacks was provided by the White House under a still-classified directive signed by President Bush within days of the attacks at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, the officials said.

The process, known as rendition, has been central in the government's efforts to disrupt terrorism, but has been bitterly criticized by human rights groups on grounds that the practice has violated the Bush administration's public pledge to provide safeguards against torture.

In providing a detailed description of the program, a senior U.S. official said it had been aimed only at those suspected of having knowledge of terrorist operations, and emphasized that the CIA has gone to great lengths to ensure that they are detained under humane conditions and not subjected to torture.

The official would not discuss any legal directive under which the agency operates, but said that the "CIA has existing authorities to lawfully conduct these operations."

The official declined to be named but agreed to discuss the program to rebut the assertions that the United States uses the program to secretly send people to other countries for the purpose of torture.

The transfers were portrayed as an alternative to what American officials have said is the costly, manpower-intensive process of housing them in the United States or in American-run facilities in other countries.

In recent weeks, several former detainees have described being subjected to coercive interrogation techniques and brutal treatment during months spent in detention under the program in Egypt and other countries.

The official would not discuss specific cases, but did not dispute that there had been instances in which prisoners were mistreated.

The official said none had died.

The official said the CIA's inspector general was reviewing the rendition program as one of at least a half-dozen inquiries under way within the agency of possible misconduct involving the detention, interrogation and rendition of suspected terrorists.

In public, the Bush administration has refused to confirm that the rendition program exists, saying only in response to questions about it that the United States did not hand over people to face torture.

The official refused to say how many prisoners had been transferred as part of the program.

But former government officials say that the CIA has flown 100 to 150 suspected terrorists to other countries since the Sept. 11 attacks, including Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Pakistan.

Each of those countries has been identified by the State Department as habitually using torture in its prisons.

But the official said that guidelines enforced within the CIA require that no transfer take place before the receiving country provides assurances that the prisoner will be treated humanely, and that U.S. personnel are assigned to monitor compliance with those promises.

"We get assurances, we check on those assurances, and we double-check on these assurances to make sure that people are being handled properly in respect to human rights," the official said.

The official said that compliance had been "very high" but added, "Nothing is 100 percent unless we're sitting there staring at them 24 hours a day."

It has long been known that the CIA has held a small group of high-ranking al-Qaida leaders in secret sites overseas, and that the U.S. military continues to detain hundreds of suspected terrorists in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and in Afghanistan.

The rendition program was intended to augment those operations, according to former government officials, by allowing the United States to gain intelligence from the interrogations of the prisoners, most of whom were sent to their countries of birth or citizenship.

Before Sept. 11, the CIA had been authorized by presidential directives to carry out renditions, but under rules much more restrictive than those now in place.

In most instances in the past, the transfers of individual prisoners required review and approval by interagency groups led by the White House, and were usually authorized to bring prisoners to the United States or to other countries to face criminal charges.

As part of its broad new latitude, current and former government officials say, the CIA has been authorized to transfer prisoners to other countries solely for the purpose of detention and interrogation.

The covert transfers by the CIA have faced sharp criticism, in part because of the accounts provided by former prisoners who say they were beaten, shackled, humiliated, subjected to electric shocks, and otherwise mistreated during their long detention in foreign prisons before being released without being charged.

Among the accounts that have contributed to the concern are cases like the following:

Maher Arar, a Syrian-born Canadian, who was detained at Kennedy Airport two weeks after the Sept. 11 attacks and transported to Syria, where he said he was subjected to beatings.

A year later he was released without being charged with any crime.

Khaled el-Masri, a Lebanese-born German who was pulled from a bus on the Serbia-Macedonia border in December 2003 and flown to Afghanistan, where he said he was beaten and drugged.

He was released five months later without being charged with a crime.

Mamdouh Habib, an Egyptian-born Australian who was arrested in Pakistan several weeks after the 2001 attacks.

He was moved to Egypt, Afghanistan and finally Guantanamo.

During his detention, Habib said he was beaten, humiliated and subjected to electric shocks.

He was released after 40 months without being charged with a crime.

In the most explicit statement of the administration's policies, Alberto R. Gonzales, then the White House counsel, said in written congressional testimony in January that "the policy of the United States is not to transfer individuals to countries where we believe they likely will be tortured."

Gonzales said at the time that he was "not aware of anyone in the executive branch authorizing any transfer of a detainee in violation with that policy."

Administration officials have said that approach is consistent with American obligations under the Convention Against Torture, the international agreement that bars signatories from engaging in extreme interrogation techniques.

But in interviews, a half-dozen current and former government officials said they believed that, in practice, the administration's approach may have involved turning a blind eye to torture.

One former senior government official who was assured that no one was being mistreated said the number of abuse accounts was disturbing.

"I really wonder what they were doing, and I am no longer sure what I believe," said the official, who was briefed periodically about the rendition program.

In congressional testimony last month, the director of central intelligence, Porter J. Goss, acknowledged that the United States had only a limited capacity to enforce promises that detainees would be treated humanely.

"We have a responsibility of trying to ensure that they are properly treated, and we try and do the best we can to guarantee that," Goss said of the prisoners that the United States has transferred to the custody of other countries.

"But of course once they're out of our control, there's only so much we can do."

"But we do have an accountability program for those situations."

end quotes

Don't look now, Senator Robert Byrd, but I think the Nazis are back, and your warnings about them are not only falling on deaf ears, in heads with blind eyes in them, but they are just too late, as well!

[jeffmoskin]

When I was growing up, during the 50s, everybody was down on the Germans. There were the war movies, like Stalag 17; the dumb TV shows like Hogans Heros; there were radio dramas and books.

Later, when I was in College, I started to wonder, how could a culture that produced Beethoven, Goethe, Schiller, Immanual Kant - how could a culture that went from a collection of feuding Baronies become an industrial and technological giant in the short span of 100 years - how could a culture like that ALLOW THE NAZIS TO TAKE OVER???

I don't wonder about this any more.

There is an old story about how to cook a frog. Put him in a pot, and turn the heat up verrrrrry slowly. He knows he can always jump out. But the temperature rise is imperceptable, so there is no need to jump out.

Eventually, the water is so hot the frog cannot jump out, and that is how to cook a frog.

I wonder how hot our water is today.

Here is a well known quote:

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.


Pastor Martin Niemöller

[jeffmoskin]

Would you consider, then, jeffmoskin, developing your points further in here on this LA race, and maybe give us some "play by play", and even "man (and woman) on the street" type of news? 

I for one would find the experiment in "internet reportage from the scene" quite interesting, and it would be a good dry run, or practice run, perhaps, for more important political contests which will be coming our way down the pike, and especially in 2006!

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/07/national...print&position=


March 7, 2005
Polls Show Los Angeles Mayor Facing Dead Heat in Primary
By JOHN M. BRODER

LOS ANGELES, March 6 - James K. Hahn should be coasting to re-election as mayor of Los Angeles. He has a solid political pedigree, a reasonably strong economy, a falling crime rate, the backing of the city's pre-eminent labor federation and a long list of endorsements.

Heading into the city's primary election on Tuesday, however, the polls show that the race is a dead heat involving Mr. Hahn and two other Democrats, Bob Hertzberg and Antonio Villaraigosa, both former speakers of the State Assembly and former roommates in Sacramento. The two top vote-getters in Tuesday's nonpartisan primary will meet in a runoff election in mid-May.

Political analysts here are reluctant to predict the outcome of the primary, but several have said that Mr. Hahn has squandered the power of the incumbency, partly by failing to take advantage of the relative peace and prosperity in the city and partly because of his colorless demeanor. He has also been damaged by a criminal investigation into the awarding of city contracts to large political donors and other charges of favoritism in the conduct of the city's business.

Election officials predict that about 30 percent of the city's 1.4 million registered voters will turn out for the election.

Franklin Gilliam, a professor of political science and a scholar of racial and ethnic politics at the University of California, Los Angeles, said the odds were that Mr. Hahn would squeak through the primary, but without a strong vote of confidence from the public.

"It's difficult to beat an incumbent who is presiding over at least a moderately successful economy," Dr. Gilliam said. "There's some sense that voters are turned off by some of the scandal in City Hall, but none of it has stuck on Hahn, at least not yet."

He said Mr. Hahn's endorsement by the Los Angeles County Federation of Labor, A.F.L.-C.I.O., had provided the mayor with significant support because the federation is providing telephone banks, mailers and volunteers to turn out voters. The federation is contributing about $500,000 in independent expenditures on behalf of the mayor.

But Dr. Gilliam also said that the mayor had been hurt among African-American voters by his maneuvering to replace Bernard Parks, the city's first black police chief and one of the contenders in the mayoral primary. The mayor also alienated some Latino voters with his harsh campaign against Mr. Villaraigosa four years ago.

"Beyond that," Dr. Gilliam said, "I think Hahn's got a bigger problem. It's not clear among any slice of the electorate what he stands for or what he does."

Mr. Hertzberg, a gregarious lawyer, is the surging long shot in the race, moving in the past few weeks into a statistical tie with Mr. Hahn and Mr. Villaraigosa, who ran against each other in the general election four years ago. Mr. Hahn won that contest by seven percentage points after finishing second to Mr. Villaraigosa in the primary.

Mr. Hertzberg's television spots depict him as a Gulliver-like figure bestriding the city, proposing big solutions to the city's big problems. Mr. Hahn, in Mr. Hertzberg's narrative, is the Lilliputian mayor, a man lacking a vision befitting the nation's second-largest city.

Mr. Hertzberg, who lives in the San Fernando Valley, is appealing to valley residents unhappy with city services and schools and is trying to put together a coalition of Republican and Jewish voters to win a runoff spot.

Mr. Villaraigosa, a City Council member, is appealing, as he did the last time, to Latino voters, while trying to broaden his coalition to include whites and African-Americans who voted for Mr. Hahn in 2001 but are now dissatisfied with him. Latinos have occupied prominent spots in city and state government and in California's Congressional delegation for decades, but no Latino has won the mayor's office in the modern era.

In the campaign's closing days, Mr. Hahn has opened two lines of attack against Mr. Hertzberg and Mr. Villaraigosa. He has accused them of supporting California's experiment with energy deregulation and then cozying up to Enron and other energy companies that manipulated the state's energy supplies, leading to widespread power blackouts and brownouts in 2000 and 2001. He has also said in advertisements that Mr. Hertzberg and Mr. Villaraigosa wrote letters urging President Bill Clinton to pardon a convicted crack cocaine dealer. Mr. Hahn used that to great effect against Mr. Villaraigosa four years ago.

Mr. Hertzberg dismissed the mayor's charges as the flailings of a drowning man. "You've got a desperate mayor doing desperate things," he said.

Mr. Hahn said that he had been written off before during his 24 years in public life and had come back to win each time.

"Always underestimated," Mr. Hahn said in an interview recently, "never defeated."

[Abu Beacon]

And don't forget to give yourself a round of applause for STARTING THIS THREAD.

Three cheers for Livyjr.

Time to start a RECALL GEORGE W. BUSH campaign, here in OUR America, as was the case with getting Millhouse "Tricky Dick" Nixxon and Spiro "Spiggy" Agnew and John Mitchell and that crowd out of office back in the "Watergate Scandal" days!

RECALL GEORGE W. BUSH!

He is un-American, un-patriotic, and a grave danger to OUR American way of life!

Pass it on!

It has been a while since I posted anything here in Livyjr's thread.

No good reason - just a matter of finding time to do everything I like to do.
Whether or not , I write anything here, one thing is for sure. I always read
" Life In Our America " several times a day. This is one of the pillars of this forum.

Wouldn't it be a GREAT thing if a momentum would build to recall George Bush.
The operative word is IMPEACHMENT. Frankly, I do not think the timing is right because there are still so many ostrich like people out there.

Or should I compare these people to the three monkeys who SEE no evil - Hear no evil - and Say no evil in regards to our fearless, arrogant, impetuous, and self righteous leader who has appointed himself, ( with the blessing and support of his culpable inner circle ) the emperor of this planet.

And, Livyjr, I am not negative to this idea of recall. Every cause, every movement, starts with an idea and with a first step.

And so, perhaps, at least getting the thought of a recall out to every one we contact in any way, will be that first step.

The following paragraph is taken from a posting of Gabrielle on March 4. Since Gabrielle posted on this thread, I will answer on the same.

>>>>> I wanted so much to pop into A.B.'s corner last night and ask you and Jeff and A.B. and the others there some questions about how you felt, how you coped with the knowledge that our government/corporate elites were so incestuously linked and crooked when you first found out. <<<<<

Gabrielle, in trying to jog this old memory of mine, the following thoughts seem to pop out.

I believe almost everyone sort of knows, and always did know, that most people in positions of power are to some extent " on the take ". A litle graft here, a little corruption there, some ' payola ' when the opportunity arose. Favors given, favors taken. Hardly anyone is immune to this sort of thing.

It is never condoned, but always overlooked. ( Until someone gets caught red handed ) This goes for the people on the lower rungs of the ladder and on up, i.e. your councilman, your county commissioneers, mayor, state reps, governor, congressmen, senators, all the way up to the top.

Many of us console ourselves by comparing our power people with those in other parts of the world who are much worse, much more blatant, and not at all concerned with who knows what they are doing. Just a way of life.

I am not trying to defend that type of thinking on our part.

But, to get right to the point, Gabrielle.

My real awakening came with the actions of Richard Millhouse Nixon, who actually could have been an outstanding president.

My naive and trusting feelings were shattered with his actions in the Watergate episode which rather than my taking up reams of space explaining, I suggest to anyone who wants to know more of this to type in " Watergate " on Google.
You will get more that than you want to know.

Even prior to that was the scandal of his vice president, Spiro Agnew, who was one of those caught " red handed ' accepting bribes. Again, I refer anyone to Google, our all knowing electronic encyclopedia.

Since that time, I have never fully trusted ANYONE in government.

At this point, with this set of personal agenda driven people in charge, there is absolutely no trust at all.

I wish it were not that way.

Thanks for asking, Gabrielle. Perhaps in your lifetime, this situation may change for the better.

A.B.

This post has been edited by Abu Beacon: Mar 7 2005, 07:38 AM

[Abu Beacon]

It has been a while since I posted anything here in Livyjr's thread.

No good reason - just a matter of finding time to do everything I like to do.
Whether or not , I write anything here, one thing is for sure. I always read
" Life In Our America " several times a day. This is one of the pillars of this forum.

Wouldn't it be a GREAT thing if a momentum would build to recall George Bush.
The operative word is IMPEACHMENT. Frankly, I do not think the timing is right because there are still so many ostrich like people out there.

Or should I compare these people to the three monkeys who SEE no evil - Hear no evil - and Say no evil in regards to our fearless, arrogant, impetuous, and self righteous leader who has appointed himself, ( with the blessing and support of his culpable inner circle ) the emperor of this planet.

And, Livyjr, I am not negative to this idea of recall. Every cause, every movement, starts with an idea and with a first step.

And so, perhaps, at least getting the thought of a recall out to every one we contact in any way, will be that first step.

The following paragraph is taken from a posting of Gabrielle on March 4. Since Gabrielle posted on this thread, I will answer on the same.

>>>>> I wanted so much to pop into A.B.'s corner last night and ask you and Jeff and A.B. and the others there some questions about how you felt, how you coped with the knowledge that our government/corporate elites were so incestuously linked and crooked when you first found out. <<<<<

Gabrielle, in trying to jog this old memory of mine, the following thoughts seem to pop out.

I believe almost everyone sort of knows, and always did know, that most people in positions of power are to some extent " on the take ". A litle graft here, a little corruption there, some ' payola  ' when the opportunity arose. Favors given, favors taken. Hardly anyone is immune to this sort of thing.

It is never condoned, but always overlooked. ( Until someone gets caught red handed ) This goes for the people on the lower rungs of the ladder and on up, i.e. your councilman, your county commissioneers, mayor, state reps, governor, congressmen, senators, all the way up to the top.

Many of us console ourselves by comparing our power people with those in other parts of the world who are much worse, much more blatant, and not at all concerned with who knows what they are doing. Just a way of life.

I am not trying to defend that type of thinking on our part.

But, to get right to the point, Gabrielle.

My real awakening came with the actions of Richard Millhouse Nixon, who actually could have been an outstanding president.

My naive and trusting feelings were shattered with his actions in the Watergate episode which rather than my taking up reams of space explaining, I suggest to anyone who wants to know more of this to type in " Watergate " on Google.
You will get more that than you want to know.

Even prior to that was the scandal of his vice president, Spiro Agnew, who was one of those caught " red handed ' accepting bribes. Again, I refer anyone to Google, our all knowing electronic encyclopedia.

Since that time, I have never fully trusted ANYONE in government.

At this point, with this set of personal agenda driven people in charge, there is absolutely no trust at all.

I wish it were not that way.

Thanks for asking, Gabrielle. Perhaps in your lifetime, this situation may change for the better.

A.B.

[Livyjr]

The following paragraph is taken from a posting of Gabrielle on March 4.

Since Gabrielle posted on this thread, I will answer on the same.

>>>>> I wanted so much to pop into A.B.'s corner last night and ask you and Jeff and A.B. and the others there some questions about how you felt, how you coped with the knowledge that our government/corporate elites were so incestuously linked and crooked when you first found out. <<<<<

Gabrielle, in trying to jog this old memory of mine, the following thoughts seem to pop out.

I believe almost everyone sort of knows, and always did know, that most people in positions of power are to some extent "on the take".

A litle graft here, a little corruption there, some "payola" when the opportunity arose.

Favors given, favors taken.

Hardly anyone is immune to this sort of thing.

It is never condoned, but always overlooked.

(Until someone gets caught red handed)

This goes for the people on the lower rungs of the ladder and on up, i.e. your councilman, your county commissioneers, mayor, state reps, governor, congressmen, senators, all the way up to the top.

Many of us console ourselves by comparing our power people with those in other parts of the world who are much worse, much more blatant, and not at all concerned with who knows what they are doing.

Just a way of life.

I am not trying to defend that type of thinking on our part.

But, to get right to the point, Gabrielle.

My real awakening came with the actions of Richard Millhouse Nixon, who actually could have been an outstanding president.

My naive and trusting feelings were shattered with his actions in the Watergate episode which rather than my taking up reams of space explaining, I suggest to anyone who wants to know more of this to type in "Watergate" on Google.

(Ed. note: I have done that, and posted above on both Watergate and Spiro Agnew, FOR THE SAKE OF THE RECORD IN HERE)

You will get more that than you want to know.

Even prior to that was the scandal of his vice president, Spiro Agnew, who was one of those caught "red-handed" accepting bribes.

Again, I refer anyone to Google, our all knowing electronic encyclopedia.

Since that time, I have never fully trusted ANYONE in government.

At this point, with this set of personal agenda driven people in charge, there is absolutely no trust at all.

I wish it were not that way.

Thanks for asking, Gabrielle.

Perhaps in your lifetime, this situation may change for the better.

A.B.

And here I have to say, Mr. A.B., that I was wondering when I came in here today whether or not you would "take Gabrielle's bait", and how you would answer the question, and I am glad to see on entering into here this morning, that you did catch the hint, and that you took the time to answer the question, IN HERE, for all the candid world to see!

And I cannot argue one bit with how you have put things there!

I would only say that generally, people want to "look another way", and "not see" this corruption, because it is like a doctor seeing nothing but sick people all the time, you lose sight of wellness after a while, and maybe forget that it can even exist.

Since we are mostly powerless to end corruption, and IF it does not enter our lives so fully and completely that we end up totally without liberty, then, the healthy thing to do is find some pleasantness and keep your gaze on that.

Is that "hiding"?

I don't know, and I won't say, because IT IS AND ALWAYS HAS TO BE a matter of personal choice!

NEVER SWIM IN WATER OVER YOUR HEAD IF YOU ARE UNABLE TO PREVENT YOURSELF FROM BEING PUSHED UNDER AND HELD DOWN UNTIL YOU ARE GONE!

Just a thing to remember if you decide to go out and start campaigning against corrupt politicians!

And Mr. A.B., with that said, I think that between you and me, who are a generation apart, that there is a "difference", however slight, between our "outlooks", and that is the "SKEW" that Viet Nam puts on my outlook, versus your outlook, which I think had more of a "HOPE" factor to it, AS YOU CAME HOME from the end of a war, where I simply left an on-going one behind, and came back into an America, in 1970, that was being torn right apart by that war.

Right from the moment I arrived back in the United States, it was as if coming to a place that I had never been.

The hostility was incredible!

It was palpable, tangible, you could have cut it with a knife.

The jeering as I came into an airport somewhere in California, near San Francisco!

Flying back from San Francisco to Kennedy in New York, so that I could make my way to home, the stewardess completely ignored me, as though I did not exist.

Of course, I was in uniform, having just out-processed, and having no other clothes to wear.

And in my first moments "back", all I could think was WTF am I?

WHAT PLACE IS THIS THAT I AM NOW IN?

Once back here, I recall watching on TV as police swung clubs and smashed heads down there in Washington, D.C., while John Mitchell of Watergate fame stood up on a balcony, like an Emporer of Rome, smoking his pipe, and cheering on the police, AND PEOPLE WHERE I WAS WERE CHEERING, as well!

"Club those S.O.B.'s!"

And if they had set up machine-guns to mow those people down, right there on television, I think the cheering would have been even louder.

And then, down went John Mitchell, "Spiggy" Agnew, Millhouse "Tricky Dick" Nixxon, and I thought, hoped, that America had learned something out of all of that, but that is far-fetched thinking on my part, and your post kind of confirms that, but in a necessary way!

This thing of corruption and power goes back and back and back and back and on and on and on, and never do you find a time when it is not really there, to some degree or other, or totally gone, although there definitely are times, and places where it is not so ascendent as it is right now, here in OUR America.

And Mr. A.B., I want to complement you on your tone, here.

It is very easy to get bitter over this stuff, and so, to become strident in tone, and I hope that I am not, and that if I start getting that way, I have the sense to quit this thread, or maybe someone compassionate like you will have the sense to come look for me, and then club me a couple of times with a good, stout oak branch, just to re-adjust my attitude for me, and get it a little more "sunny", as yours is.

SO!

Well done, Mr. A.B., well said!

And here, I am very serious!

I am so turned off by what passes for "political" rhetoric in America these days because all it is is hate-mongering, for the most part, and lies, and distortions, as was the case with the lying, whining, crying REPUBLICAN "SWIFT BOAT BOYS" in this last presidential election, as a case in point!

ME, I don't like to hide away from things, but I also have a way in which I am RECEPTIVE to hearing about "problems", and when it comes across as nothing more than bitterness and vituperation, "bi***ing", and grousing, with no thought behind it, or analysis as to WHY something looks or is out of kilter, then, as for me, ADIOS!

But some satire, and irony, and analysis, and especially background, such as older folks like you and jeffmoskin are able to provide, BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN THERE LONG ENOUGH TO KNOW THAT THERE EVEN IS SUCH A THING AS "HAVING BEEN THERE", then that provides me with an opportunity to consider, and then, who knows, why, I might even have my own eyes opened, and I could even learn something, from listening!

And that is where we are getting back to, in here, politics in a more "old-fashioned" mode, where people actually did talk, not shout, and ideas were exchanged back and forth, and viewpoints, and outlooks!

And that is what you have provided not only Gabrielle, but all of us as well, with, in your post here, simple and to the point as it is, and that is priceless, Mr. A.B., priceless!

IT IS OUR AMERICA, after all, so maybe we all should just start acting like it is!

And that starts with each of us, as an individual, and can only grow from there!

RECALL GEORGE W. BUSH!

HE IS JUST PLAIN BAD FOR AMERICA!

THE FUTURE YOU IMPROVE BY JOINING THIS RECALL MOVEMENT WILL BE THAT OF NOT ONLY YOUR OWN CHILDREN, BUT ALL THE WORLD, AS WELL!

[jeffmoskin]

My real awakening came with the actions of Richard Millhouse Nixon, who actually could have been an outstanding president.

He went to China. That alone is a legacy worth having. He, like Clinton, was impeached (actually, Nixon resigned first) for trivial causes, not in the same league with the WAR CRIMES AND CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY OF GEORGE W(ARMONGER) BUSH.

Right from the moment I arrived back in the United States, it was as if coming to a place that I had never been.

I find this SHAMEFUL, and even though I opposed the war, I always found it abhorent to take out our anger on the people who were ORDERED to go to war by that lying SOB and traitor Lyndon Baines Johnson. I may have posted this earlier, but my butcher and I are planning a trip to Texas for the express purpose of urinating on his grave.

RECALL GEORGE W BUSH

HE IS JUST PLAIN BAD FOR AMERICA!

But first, we need to clean "House" of the empty headed goose stepping republican brown shirts so we can properly IMPEACH THE SON OF A BUSH

[Livyjr]

The following paragraph is taken from a posting of Gabrielle on March 4. Since Gabrielle posted on this thread, I will answer on the same.

>>>>> I wanted so much to pop into A.B.'s corner last night and ask you and Jeff and A.B. and the others there some questions about how you felt, how you coped with the knowledge that our government/corporate elites were so incestuously linked and crooked when you first found out. <<<<<

Gabrielle, in trying to jog this old memory of mine, the following thoughts seem to pop out.

I believe almost everyone sort of knows, and always did know, that most people in positions of power are to some extent "on the take".

A litle graft here, a little corruption there, some "payola" when the opportunity arose.

It is never condoned, but always overlooked.

(Until someone gets caught red handed)

This goes for the people on the lower rungs of the ladder and on up, i.e. your councilman, your county commissioneers, mayor, state reps, governor, congressmen, senators, all the way up to the top.

Many of us console ourselves by comparing our power people with those in other parts of the world who are much worse, much more blatant, and not at all concerned with who knows what they are doing.

Just a way of life.

A.B.

And here I am going to say that I always do wonder just which way this "corruption" business really does go!

If the "little guy" did not have the "big guy" as his or here role model, would they be corrupt, themselves?

IF it were not for the corrupt little guy, could the big guy really BE AND STAY corrupt!

Or is it all one great big on-going mess, kind of biblical in nature, a "PASSION PLAY, as it were, or a kind of on-going "GREEK TRAGEDY" that is being staged, however elaborately, for OUR benefit, so as to provide us with an on-going test of OUR own "FREE WILL"!

One of the most powerful "MORALITY STORIES" ever written, I think, is not in the Bible; rather it is "Pinochio", where the boys were turned into donkeys.

And I always tell people, "THEY GOT THEMSELVES THERE; THEY ONLY HAVE THEMSELVES TO BLAME!"

"YOU WANT TO BE A JACK-ASS, JUST GO FIND JIMMY LAMPWICK, AND FOLLOW HIM, AND BY GOD, YOUR WISHES JUST MIGHT BE FULFILLED!"

As this next story from right near to me, down there in the very HEART of George Pataki's corrupt Empire State of New York, kind of demonstrates, and proves:

"Officer admits forging pay slip - Albany cop resigns, will be sentenced on May 2 to jail time, probation and to pay restitution for bogus overtime"

By MICHELE MORGAN BOLTON, Staff writer, Albany, New York Times Union
First published: Tuesday, March 1, 2005

ALBANY -- A 27-year-old city police officer is headed for jail after admitting he forged his supervisor's signature on a bogus 2002 overtime submission request, which was part of a scheme to bilk the city out of tens of thousands of dollars.

Jeffrey Metcalfe resigned in disgrace Monday from the city department he joined in 1998 and where his father, retired Detective Al Metcalfe, worked for decades.

Metcalfe has been on paid suspension for more than a year.

His resignation was effective immediately.

He pleaded guilty in Albany County Court to one count of second-degree criminal possession of a forged instrument during a hearing before Albany County Judge Stephen W. Herrick.

Those charges represented just $4,500 of the $36,000 total pay that Metcalfe stole from the city by putting in for shifts he didn't work.

The patrol officer working out of Central Station on Western Avenue made $77,612 that year.

The plea deal satisfies a 90-count indictment handed up by a county grand jury in January 2004.

In it, the five-year patrol officer faced 30 counts each of second-degree possession of a forged instrument, first-degree offering a forged instrument and petit larceny in the alleged yearlong scam, said to begin in May 2002.

"Speaking for the entire department and the administration, we are relieved this episode is over," said James Miller, spokesman for the Department of Public Safety.

"Let's move forward."

Metcalfe could have faced 20 years in state prison had he been convicted.

A trial was scheduled to begin next week.

On Monday, Herrick allowed Metcalfe to remain free without bail until his May 2 sentencing.

He will be required to pay $10,000 in restitution and serve five years' probation.

"I do think he is a fine person and a dedicated and decorated police officer," said his attorney, Paul DerOhannesian, declining further comment.

He said he might have more to say at sentencing, however.

Metcalfe will be required to serve two-thirds of his six-month sentence, or four months.

Precautions will be taken to ensure his safety behind bars.

A number of defendants in recent months have pleaded guilty in Albany County to stealing money from employers and were sentenced to much harsher sentences than Metcalfe.

Yet Special Prosecutor Donald Kinsella denied the notion Metcalfe might have received special treatment because he is a cop.

"In a situation like this, a police officer loses his job, his stature, his standing in the community and with his peers," Kinsella said.

"His job skills aren't necessarily transferable somewhere else."

"I think it's a fair disposition in the context of his case," he added.

"He disputes he was responsible for the whole amount."

Kinsella also was the special prosecutor in the investigation of the shooting of David R.A. Scaringe on New Year's Eve in 2003.

The 24-year-old engineer was a bystander on Lark Street when he was killed by a stray bullet as Albany police officers William Bonanni and Joseph Gerace shot at a motorist.

The two were cleared of wrongdoing by a grand jury and received no punishment under a deal they struck privately with the city late last year.

Metcalfe clasped his hands and lowered his head as he stood before the judge.

"Have you had enough time to speak with your attorney, friends and family?" Herrick asked.

"Yes, sir," Metcalfe said.

"Are you pleading guilty because you are, in fact, guilty?" the judge went on.

"Yes," Metcalfe said.

"You weren't entitled to those monies, is that correct?" Herrick clarified.

"Yes," he whispered, swallowing hard.

Metcalfe was arrested on Sept. 26, 2003, following an internal police investigation.

Suspicious co-workers noticed his pay was larger than his colleagues' as they flipped through the stack of checks each payday.

Investigators then reviewed Metcalfe's pay stubs and paperwork and found phony incident numbers and arrests.

A system designed to verify the overtime hours officers claim to have worked failed to catch the fraud, sending up red flags in a department in which about 340 officers collected more than $2.7 million in overtime in 2002.

Officers are now required to have a supervisor not only approve overtime in advance, but also sign off again when it is submitted, Miller said.

[jeffmoskin]

Metcalfe clasped his hands and lowered his head as he stood before the judge.

"Have you had enough time to speak with your attorney, friends and family?" Herrick asked.

"Yes, sir," Metcalfe said.

"Are you pleading guilty because you are, in fact, guilty?" the judge went on.

"Yes," Metcalfe said.

"You weren't entitled to those monies, is that correct?" Herrick clarified.

"Yes," he whispered, swallowing hard.\

Oh that we could ask the same questions to KennyBoy Lay!

Or Bernie Ebbers.

Or, even, MICHAEL EISNER, Mouse-in-Chief

[Livyjr]

Since we are mostly powerless to end corruption, and IF it does not enter our lives so fully and completely that we end up totally without liberty, then, the healthy thing to do is find some pleasantness and keep your gaze on that.

Is that "hiding"?

I don't know, and I won't say, because IT IS AND ALWAYS HAS TO BE a matter of personal choice!

NEVER SWIM IN WATER OVER YOUR HEAD IF YOU ARE UNABLE TO PREVENT YOURSELF FROM BEING PUSHED UNDER AND HELD DOWN UNTIL YOU ARE GONE!

Just a thing to remember if you decide to go out and start campaigning against corrupt politicians!

And here I am going to say that I always do wonder just which way this "corruption" business really does go!

If the "little guy" did not have the "big guy" as his or her role model, would they be corrupt, themselves?

IF it were not for the corrupt little guy, could the big guy really BE AND STAY corrupt!

Or is it all one great big on-going mess, kind of biblical in nature, a "PASSION PLAY, as it were, or a kind of on-going "GREEK TRAGEDY" that is being staged, however elaborately, for OUR benefit, so as to provide us with an on-going test of OUR own "FREE WILL"!

One of the most powerful "MORALITY STORIES" ever written, I think, is not in the Bible; rather it is "Pinochio", where the boys were turned into donkeys.

And I always tell people, "THEY GOT THEMSELVES THERE; THEY ONLY HAVE THEMSELVES TO BLAME!"

"YOU WANT TO BE A JACK-ASS, JUST GO FIND JIMMY LAMPWICK, AND FOLLOW HIM, AND BY GOD, YOUR WISHES JUST MIGHT BE FULFILLED!"

As this next story from right near to me, down there in the very HEART of George Pataki's corrupt Empire State of New York, kind of demonstrates, and proves:

"Officer admits forging pay slip - Albany cop resigns, will be sentenced on May 2 to jail time, probation and to pay restitution for bogus overtime" 
 
By MICHELE MORGAN BOLTON, Staff writer, Albany, New York Times Union 
First published: Tuesday, March 1, 2005

ALBANY -- A 27-year-old city police officer is headed for jail after admitting he forged his supervisor's signature on a bogus 2002 overtime submission request, which was part of a scheme to bilk the city out of tens of thousands of dollars.

Jeffrey Metcalfe resigned in disgrace Monday from the city department he joined in 1998 and where his father, retired Detective Al Metcalfe, worked for decades.

"Speaking for the entire department and the administration, we are relieved this episode is over," said James Miller, spokesman for the Department of Public Safety.

"Let's move forward."

Metcalfe could have faced 20 years in state prison had he been convicted.

A system designed to verify the overtime hours officers claim to have worked failed to catch the fraud, sending up red flags in a department in which about 340 officers collected more than $2.7 million in overtime in 2002.

YES, let's move forward!

But when the corruption comes from the top down, and from the bottom right back up, so that everything decent in between is SQUEEZED right out, like seeds from a crushed grape, THEN WHAT, JIMMY, THEN WHAT?

"Police cover up hunt for a mole - After embarrassing leak, Albany department, union made dedicated effort to find who sent e-mail"

By BRENDAN LYONS, Staff writer, Albany, New York Times Union
First published: Monday, March 7, 2005

ALBANY -- Hours after Police Chief James Turley softened the disciplinary action against a cop who had embarrassed the department, the word leaked out when a tipster sent an e-mail off to a local TV station.

Inside police headquarters, the hunt for a mole began.

By the time it was over, the police union would obtain information on a civilian's private e-mail account.

And months later, the police chief would try to cover up the alleged invasion of the man's privacy.

The anonymous author who set off the controversy had accused Turley of bowing to union pressure by agreeing to reduce the punishment for an officer who turned away a bank robbery suspect who'd tried to turn himself in.

Police union officials won't say how they got the private information of Robert W. Berry, the Florida man whose e-mail accounts were used to contact the media last November.

And Turley admits he lied several weeks ago when the Times Union asked him whether Berry had sent him a letter demanding an investigation.

He also argued that correspondence he receives at police headquarters is "private."

But after the newspaper filed a Freedom of Information Law request seeking a copy of the letter, city attorneys released a copy this past week.

"I lied."

"I apologize."

"... If it costs me my job, so be it," Turley said during a recent interview.

"I thought the letter was my letter."

"Now, in talking to corporation counsel and everything, they're telling me any letters that come here as official correspondence are just that."

The search for the mole, who still has not been identified, began Nov. 12 after Turley returned from a vacation and reduced the suspension of an officer from 30 days to less than a week.

The cop had embarrassed the department after he told a bank robbery suspect to come back later when the man tried to turn himself in at a police station.

The story was picked up by the media and broadcast on at least one nationally televised news program.

Turley's decision came during a private meeting with union officials last November, during a tumultuous two years leading a department that had been rocked by infighting and allegations of scandal.

Leaks also were a problem.

Turley would later say tips to the media about the strife had been such a problem in the department that he wondered whether his office was bugged.

So when the department had a chance to trace a source for one of the leaks, police officials seized the chance.

Turley defended his decision to overrule an assistant chief, Steve Reilly, who handed down the 30-day suspension while the chief was away.

Turley found the discipline was excessive.

But less than two hours after the chief approved the reduction, someone wrote an e-mail to a local TV station tipping them about what happened.

Another source also told the Times Union about Turley's decision.

That same day, a worker at the TV station forwarded the tipster's e-mail to police for comment.

But the anonymous sender's cryptic America Online address was left on the e-mail.

Turley and union officials, who had pointed fingers at one another over the leak, now agreed to work together to find out who it was.

Internal affairs detectives were assigned to the case and they zeroed in on a computer in a detective office that authorities believed may have been used to send the e-mail.

The computer was seized and brought to internal affairs, where it was analyzed but yielded no clues.

Despite the dead end, union officials let it be known around the department they'd identified the e-mail account as belonging to Berry, a pastor and former area resident who was active in local political campaigns here.

Berry was a key figure in Mayor Jerry Jennings' first run for City Hall in 1993, but later worked for the mayor's political opponents, including Assemblyman Jack McEneny, who challenged Jennings in 1997.

Berry, 57, who lives in Boca Raton, also has fostered friendships with several Albany cops over the years.

He declined comment for this report.

Chris Mesley, president of the Albany Police Officers Union, declined to say how they got Berry's account information without a subpoena or search warrant.

"To the best of my knowledge, nothing was done illegally," Mesley said.

"The chief basically encouraged us to do our own investigation."

He said the union had asked Turley to authorize a subpoena so they could sift deeper into Berry's AOL accounts and the content of e-mails, but the chief refused.

Union officials, on their own accord, went to Albany County District Attorney David Soares for a subpoena.

He, too, refused.

Soares said he saw no proof a crime had been committed, and the union officials did not have a criminal complaint in support of their investigation.

The group also had apparently made the request without the knowledge of Turley or Mayor Jerry Jennings, according to a police department source.

"This office will not be used as a tool," Soares said.

"We told (union officials) that if they wanted to pursue a complaint, they would have to provide us with written information requesting us to look at the possibility of criminal conduct."

The investigation appeared to end at that point, but Berry learned union officials had obtained his AOL account information and wrote a letter to Turley last month demanding an investigation.

"I have learned to my dismay that individuals from the Albany Police Department have illegally obtained information from a private Internet service provider about me and personal email (sic) accounts," Berry wrote.

"I hereby request an investigation of the methods used and identification of the participants in these illegal acts."

Turley said he spoke with Berry and convinced him to withdraw the complaint.

The chief said that's part of the reason why he denied receiving the letter.

"The complaint had been withdrawn by the time you had got to me," he said.

Turley said he ended the investigation and is not interested in how union officials obtained Berry's AOL information.

"I don't know how they found out," he said.

"There's probably 10 different ways to figure that out."

The controversy comes at a time when Soares, who took office in January, has pledged to clean up the way his prosecutors issue subpoenas.

Law enforcement officials, he said, will no longer be able to get subpoenas directly from assistant district attorneys without documenting that they need them for legitimate investigations.

"We're going to be implementing some controls here so that you can't go to your ADA for that," he said.

"Ultimately, they will come to my desk."

"Decisions will be made here."

[Livyjr]

And since there has been a lot posted in here in the last couple of days, I have gotten behind, somewhat, in addressing a few points that were made, OR NEED TO BE MADE, to keep the conversation on-going and up to date, but in the meantime, I just saw this story, which interested me for its unexpectedness and sudden-ness, and so, I "captured" it for posting in here, along with everything else that is going on in OUR world right now, today!

Does it mean anything at all?

Can't tell yet, but statistical anomolies are always of interest, because they perhaps should not have happened, but did!

And it is the "but did" part that makes them worthy of consideration, in my estimation, anyway!

Top Stories - Reuters

"Bolivia Teeters as President Submits Resignation"

1 hour, 27 minutes ago

By Mario Roque

LA PAZ, Bolivia (Reuters) - Bolivian President Carlos Mesa, worn down by Indian protests and wrangling over how to develop massive gas reserves, submitted his resignation to Congress Monday and left opposition lawmakers to decide the fate of his mandate.

Congress will most likely meet Tuesday.

Analysts said it could reject the surprise move announced by Mesa Sunday as an influential indigenous majority's protests to nationalize foreign investments, especially in the gas sector, swelled.

In El Alto, a poor and mainly Indian city on the outskirts of the capital, protesters clashed with scores of Mesa supporters throwing rocks.

Below in La Paz, thousands filled the presidential palace square and chanted support for Mesa.

"I cannot continue to govern besieged by a national blockade that strangles the country," Mesa, a political independent, said in his resignation letter read on television by Presidency Minister Jose Galindo.

In recent weeks, protests and highway blockades, including from a regional autonomy movement, have grown.

Demonstrators in El Alto have threatened to cut off La Paz's water supply and occupy the international airport.

If Congress accepts Mesa's resignation, it will be the second time a Bolivian president has quit in less than two years over basically the same issue: the poor Indian majority's drive to have a greater voice in Bolivia's economy.

U.S.-ally Gonzalo Sanchez de Lozada fled the country in October 2003 after 67 people died in the "gas war," nearly a month of protests against his plans to export gas through traditional foe Chile.

Mesa was his vice president and planned to finish the mandate in August 2007.

In his speech Sunday, Mesa singled out coca growers' leader Evo Morales and his Movement Toward Socialism, or MAS, which had planned nationwide protests this week to push for heavy state intervention in new gas legislation.

MAS followers were in the midst of highway blockades and occupation of oil fields.

One company had closed down one of its wells this weekend to discourage occupation.

Morales lost the 2002 presidential election to Sanchez de Lozada and is Washington's Bolivian bete noire for his opposition to the U.S.-led campaign to eradicate coca leave cultivation, the raw material for making cocaine.

Now he wants high royalties and less rights for multinationals that have invested over $3 billion to exploit South America's second largest natural gas supply behind Venezuela.

CALLS TO BLOCK RESIGNATION

If the resignation is accepted, conservative Senate chairman Hormando Vaca Diez, an advocate of tougher measures against protesters, would take over.

Congress could opt for an interim leader or call new elections before 2007.

Analysts said Congress should act responsibly by rejecting the resignation, which would allow Mesa to govern the nation of 8 million with a stronger mandate.

"Bolivia's democracy is in its worst moment," said political analyst Carlos Toranzos.

"Parliament should cast aside its political calculations to find a solution for this institutional crisis."

Another analyst, Roger Cortes, said, "The worst thing Congress could do is accept the resignation."

Neighbors of South America's poorest nation also worried about turmoil on their doorstep.

"I hope the Bolivian Congress ratifies and reaffirms that the president continues," President Alejandro Toledo told RPP radio Monday.

Bolivia has a long history of institutional instability in its 172 years of independence and Mesa, a historian and TV journalist, knows this better than anyone.

He once wrote a book called "Bolivian Presidents: Between Ballot Boxes and Bullets."

(Additional reporting by Jude Webber in Lima)