Life in OUR America, Volume 2, The Livyjr Files Options

[Livyjr]

There have always been "factions" in "Lebanon" and I put its name in quotes because it, too, was a bogus creation of the western powers after WW I, notably the French.

And since it's constitution was based upon the fundamental assumption (which was fundamentally WRONG) that the number of Muslims was equal to the number of Christians, the government structure which split power between the two was doomed to failure.

I believe the last official census was taken in 1938 or 39.

If their main resource was strawberries, do you think we would be having this conversation?

And jeffmoskin, if I had to say why I tuned in to "Life in OUR America" each day, it most definitely would be so that I could be a part of this very conversation that is happening in here, right now, where your words hang shimmering in the "AIR" right above here in the little "view window", for all the candid world to see.

And here I talk about your words on Lebanon!

And the French!

If one looks carefully at the piece on Gemayel, one notes that his family has been "influential" in that place since 1540!

In 1540, THERE WAS NO AMERICA, as we know it today, and yet, THERE WAS A LEBANON!

AND THEN .........

And that is what you are providing us with here, jeffmoskin, and so, WE LEARN!

We see through, maybe just a little bit further, thanks to you and your diligence, and so, we collectively grow!

What a thing that is!

To HELL with Arafat!

He is the past!

OUR SIGHT is on the future!

And that starts right about NOW!

[Livyjr]

Down in my town tonight, they open up Town Hall to some local people who sing, and who are musicians, and they have a kind of "session" the way that they do in County Clare in Ireland, and tonight, I think that I will go on down there, and maybe play a few tunes, myself.

Of course, you can just sit there if you wish, and I have done that too.

The music passes in a circle, and if you want to be a part of the circle, then you just take a chair.

When you are "next", well, you either do something, or nothing, and if you elect to do nothing, that is all right, and it just goes on to the next person, and that is that!

And it is not about being "good", or "bad"!

If you trouble about stuff like that, then that is stress, and this is not.

I'll probably play, "My Country Tis of Thee", but maybe not, and who ever knows until you put your wind into the flute what is going to come out the other end, where ever that in fact may be!

And so!

[Livyjr]

I don't.

I see a warrior as having a code of honor.

I see none of that with Arafat.

And I see I have "mis-spoke" myself here, jeffmoskin!

I don't see Yassir Arafat as a WARRIOR at all!

What I meant is that I assess Yassir Arafat as a WARRIOR makes such an assessment of another, like Arafat, in this case, and my conclusion is AS YOURS - WHAT CODE DID HE LIVE BY?

It was never apparent to me, and so, I could never hold out Arafat to another as an example of what a true warrior would be, which is a man or woman of HIS or HER people, WHO IS PREPARED TO ENDURE HARDSHIP ON THEIR BEHALF, and for their betterment!

Arafat simply does not pass the test, as I see it, and so, jeffmoskin, on that, we arrive at the same conclusion from however we both started, in order to have both gotten there to where we both did!

And I need to articulate myself better!

Thank you for pointing that out!

[Livyjr]

Tell us, jeffmoskin, IS THIS another sign of the "END TIMES" out there in PARADISE?

U.S. National - AP
 
"Dead Squid Wash Up in California Again"

DANA POINT, Calif. - Dead jumbo squid are again mysteriously washing up along Orange County's coastline, baffling scientists who are trying to find out why.

More than a 100 squid have been spotted since Sunday between Dana Point and San Clemente.

Still, there are no answers.

"We still don't know what's killing them," said Linda Blanchard, lab director of the Ocean Institute who has dissected about a dozen squid since they first washed up ashore in January.

"All we have right now are theories."

He said the squid possibly are discombobulated by sand churned up by tides.

Meanwhile, William Gilly, a biologist at Stanford's Hopkins Marine Station in Pacific Grove, is studying their stomach contents to determine whether the squid are being poisoned.

end quotes

Or could it be that the squid, like many others on this earth, just cannot stand the agonizing thought of another FOUR YEARS of George W. Bush, and so, they are simply packing it in, and giving up the ghost here?

WHO GAVE OUT THE KOOL-AID TO THE SQUID?

A question for OUR times, here in OUR America, especially if you like to go to the beach in sunny California, THE LAND OF AH-NOLD, and, oh, yeah, PARADISE, of course, and well, yes, Millhouse "Tricky Dick" Nixxon and Ronald Raygun, too!

And before I must go for the evening, let's update the "IRAQ SCENARIO"!

What is going on in George W. Bush's CLIENT STATE of Iraq?

Let us go and see:

Middle East - AP

"Iraq Split 2 Years After U.S.-Led Invasion"

1 hour, 20 minutes ago

By RAWYA RAGEH, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - When U.S.-led forces invaded Iraq two years ago, Adnan al-Eiby was thrilled.

He thought that once Saddam Hussein was toppled, Iraq would become a flourishing Western-style democracy.

"But now, I walk down the street and all I see is death — innocent people blown up by terrorists and others shot by the Americans," said the 32-year-old chauffeur.

"I'm fed up with life."

"We pinned our hopes on the Americans but they let us down."

A different take on the new Iraq comes from Hamid Balasim, a 34-year-old nuclear energy engineer once favored by Saddam's regime.

He says freedom matters even more than reconstructing Iraq or getting rich.

"Things are one million times better than Saddam's days," Balasim said.

"Freedom is the essence of life."

Two years after the U.S.-led invasion, Iraqis are split between hope and despair.

They have experienced the act of casting a vote in the first free and fair elections in Iraq's modern history.

But lawlessness prevails and Iraq remains mired in acts of ferocity.

Although the United States last June transferred sovereignty to an Iraqi interim government led by Prime Minister Ayad Allawi, insurgents have carried on a relentless campaign of suicide bombings, kidnappings and beheadings.

Hundreds more have died in such attacks since the Jan. 30 elections that will soon bring a Shiite-led government to power.

Rampant crime, power outages, unemployment at over 50 percent and a fuel crisis in one of the world's prime oil-exporting countries have added to the despondency.

"What has the interim government done, anyway?" al-Eiby asked, squatting in his one-room apartment in Sadr City, a Shiite Muslim slum in Baghdad, as raw sewage lapped at his doorstep.

"Many people are struggling to find jobs and our conditions have become more pathetic than that of the Afghans and the Palestinians," he complained.

Al-Eiby specializes in driving people from Baghdad to Basra, a once well-paying occupation now hit hard by looters and insurgents who have turned Iraq's highways and streets into death traps.

Although he lives in a slum, financial hard times led his landlord to increase his rent from 40,000 dinars ($27) to 100,000 dinars ($70) — a fortune for Sadr City.

Like al-Eiby, Balasim was also hit hard.

When the United States dismantled Iraq's nuclear program after the invasion, he was given a lowly desk job at the Science and Technology Ministry and his salary was cut from about $200 to $135.

But he says he only cares "about the big picture."

"We voted in a free election, we read newspapers that openly criticize government officials, we can say what we want out loud — things that do not happen in other Arab countries with no security issues, things that were the stuff of movies for us," he said.

More than 8 million Iraqis voted to elect a 275-National Assembly that is widely considered to be a first step on Iraq's path to self-rule — and at the same time brought closer the day when Iraqis finally see the Americans leave.

Al-Eiby complained the elections may have given Iraqis a taste of democracy, but have "not provided my family with bread and butter, nor do I feel safer now."

His complaint is felt by hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, who remember stabler times under Saddam.

Then, an ordinary Iraqi steering clear of politics could walk the streets without fear.

Kidnap and murder were a tool to oppress Saddam's perceived foes, and abduction for ransom and beheadings were almost unheard of.

Now, nobody feels immune.

But a report issued last September by the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies, based on wide-ranging interviews and polls, found that Iraqis have remained optimistic, "despite failures in security, services, economic opportunity."

The report warned that the challenge faced by both Iraqi and American officials was to "harness and capitalize on Iraqis' optimism" because "there is a real potential it could swing the other way if events in Iraq continue to trend negatively."

Balasim, for one, was unconcerned.

"It is a matter of time," he said, "like a sick person who's recuperating: it just needs more time and we'll be better."

end quotes

And the SQUID?

What about them?

They couldn't wait no more for peace?

[jeffmoskin]

If one looks carefully at the piece on Gemayel, one notes that his family has been "influential" in that place since 1540!

In 1540, THERE WAS NO AMERICA, as we know it today, and yet, THERE WAS A LEBANON!

from Free Biographies:

http://www.freeessay.com/biographies/Gemayel,_Pierre.html


Pierre Gemayel (last name also spelt Jumail or Jumayyil) was a Lebanese political leader. He is remembered as the founder of the Kataeb Party (also known as the Phalangist Party, as a parliamentary powerbroker, and as the father of Bachir Gemayel and Amine Gemayel, both of whom were elected to the Presidency of the Republic in his lifetime. He opposed the French Mandate over Lebanon in the late 1930s and early 1940s, and advocated an independent state, free from foreign control. He was known for his deft political manoeuvring, which led him to take positions which were seen by supporters as pragmatic, but by opponents as contradictory, or even hypocritical. Although publicly sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, for example, he privately cultivated relations with Israeli agents. A controversial politician, he survived several assassination attempts.


Early Life

Pierre Gemayel was born on 6 November 1905, in the village of Bifkaya, Lebanon, where his family had played a prominent role since 1540. His father and uncle were forced to flee to Egypt after being sentenced to death in 1914 for opposing Ottoman rule, returning to Lebanon only at the end of World War I.

Gemayel, a Maronite Catholic, was educated at Jesuit schools. He went on to study Pharmacology at the French Faculty of Medicine in Beirut, where he later opened a pharmacy. He also took an interest in sport, and led Lebanon's team at the 1936 Olympic Games in Berlin, where he observed the organization of Germany's Nazi Party. Although he rejected Nazi ideology, he admired the formidable and efficient organization, and on his return to Lebanon later that year, he founded the Kataeb Party and organized it with a similar structure.

Charles Hélou, who later served as Lebanon's President from 1964 to 1970, worked with Pierre Gemayel in the early organization of the party. By the time of his presidency, however, Hélou was no longer a party member, and Gemayel unsuccessfully opposed him in the presidential election of 1964.


Independence Leader

In the years before and after Lebanon's independence, Gemayel's influence and that of the Kataeb Party was limited. It survived a French attempt to forcibly dissolve it in 1937 and took part in an uprising against the French Mandate in 1943, but despite its membership of 35,000, it operated on the fringes of Lebanese politics. It was not until the Civil War of 1958, that Gemayel emerged as a leader of a right-wing (mainly Christian) movement that opposed a Nasserist-inspired attempt to overthrow the government of president Camille Chamoun. In the aftermath of the war, Gemayel was appointed a cabinet minister in a four-member Unity government. Two years later, Gemayel was elected to the National Assembly, from a Beirut constituency, a seat he held for the rest of his life. By the end of the 1960s, the Kataeb Party held 9 seats in the National Assembly, making it one of the largest groupings in Lebanon's notoriously fractured parliament. Although his bids for the presidency in 1964 and 1970 were unsuccessful, Gemayel continued to hold cabinet posts intermittently throughout the remaining quarter-century of his life.

Lebanon has long been a proxy battleground in the Israeli-Arab conflict, and Gemayel's positions often shifted. His supporters viewed this as a sign of flexibility, while his detractors saw it as incoherent. Gemayel signed the Cairo Accords of 1969, which allowed Palestinian guerillas to set up bases on Lebanese soil, from which to carry out raids against Israel. He later defended his actions, saying that Lebanon really had no choice. In the 1970s, he came to oppose the armed Palestinian presence in Lebanon. The Kataeb built a private army, which came to be commanded by Gemayel's son Bachir, and was secretly armed, trained, and funded by Israel. It is one of the many ironies of Lebanese politics that a party that initially drew inspiration from the virulently anti-semitic Nazi movement in Germany was later to become a close collaborator with the Jewish state.

Gemayel was also to reverse his position on The Syrian intervention in the Lebanese Civil War of 1975 to 1990. He initially welcomed Syrian intervention, believing that the Syrian army alone was capable of disarming the Palestinian guerrillas, whom he now called terrorists, despite his earlier support for them. He soon became convinced, however, that Syria was occupying Lebanon for reasons of its own, and in 1976, he joined other mainly Christian leaders, including former president Camille Chamoun, the diplomat Charles Malik, and the radical Guardians of the Cedars Party leader Etienne Saqr, in forming the Lebanese Front to oppose the Syrian occupation. On October 11, 1978, Gemayel bitterly denounced the Syrian military presence , and the Lebanese Front joined the Lebanese regular army in an unsuccessful 100-day war against the Syrian army.

Legacy

Gemayel saw his younger son, Bachir Gemayel, elected President of Lebanon on August 23, 1982, only to be assassinated on September 14, nine days before his scheduled inauguration. No conclusive evidence has ever come to light, at least publicly, as the identity of the assassins. Bachir's older brother, Amine Gemayel was elected to replace him. Pierre Gemayel himself initially stayed out of his son's government, but in early 1984, after participating in two conferences in Lausanne, Switzerland, aimed at ending the civil war and the occupation of the country by Syrian and Israeli troops (which had invaded the country in 1982), he agreed to served once more in a Cabinet of National Unity. He was still in office when he died in Bifkaya, on 29 August 1984, aged 78 years.

[Abu Beacon]

Gemayel was also to reverse his position on The Syrian intervention in the Lebanese Civil War of 1975 to 1990. He initially welcomed Syrian intervention, believing that the Syrian army alone was capable of disarming the Palestinian guerrillas, whom he now called terrorists, despite his earlier support for them. He soon became convinced, however, that Syria was occupying Lebanon for reasons of its own, and in 1976, he joined other mainly Christian leaders, including former president Camille Chamoun, the diplomat Charles Malik, and the radical Guardians of the Cedars Party leader Etienne Saqr, in forming the Lebanese Front to oppose the Syrian occupation. On October 11, 1978, Gemayel bitterly denounced the Syrian military presence ,

It now appears as though the Taif Accord will finally be realized.

Perhaps the physical presence of Syria in Lebanon will be terminated.

We can only hope.

A big test will come in May when elections are to take place in Lebanon.
The Lebanese president, Emile Lahoud, had been given the green light by Syria to extend his term of office for another three years, contrary to the Lebanese constitution. It is common knowledge that Lahoud is nothing more than a puppet to Syria. If the people of Lebanon can get a true reform government elected, which is one tall order, it will be a gigantic step for them. There is a feeling in Lebanon now that this may be their time.

I have no desire to turn this thread into a history of Lebanon or its struggles since they were officially declared an independent country back in 1943.

I mention all of the above only to tie up some loose ends which may have developed since the original question of Yassir Arafat came up.

I would, however like to bring up some of the mistakes made during the Reagan years in its foreign policy toward Lebanon. Many of these mistakes seemed to have been early signs of how deeply the United States misjudges and misunderstands the people of the Middle East. We continue to make the same type of blunders over and over again. By confining the discussions to this approach, the charachter of this thread " Life in Our America " will not be radically changed. As a matter of fact, Livyjr would have every right to ask that this discussion be moved to another thread.

So, I appreciate the fact that he graciously has not made that request.

I will not go much further into this tonight.

For the past few days I have been unusually pressed for time which has prevented me from continuing on with this discussion.

Let me say that the knowledge displayed by both jeffmoskin and Livyjr has been very much on the mark.

To make one final comment on Yassir Arafat.

He had many negatives. My relatives in Lebanon have told me how much he was despised by the Lebanese people.

However, he did accomplish one thing very well, and will probably be remembered by the Palestinians in a very favorable way for a long, long time.

What he did well was to keep alive the hopes and aspirations of the Palestinian people for a state of their own for years when events could have discouraged them from ever dreaming there would be a nation called Palestine. He almost willed them into refusing to give up that dream. Nobody else came close to doing that.

And I give him full credit for that.

In that sense, I will have to disagree with my two compatriots on this thread and say that, yes, Yassir Arafat was a warrior. He NEVER gave up, which, to me, is a highly desirable trait.

He fell victim to his own ego, and proved once again that -----

Power corrupts.

To answer your question, jeffmoskin, yes I am of Lebanese descent. I was born in the U.S. My parents both emigrated to America in the early 1900's.

Frankly, this does not make me in the least an expert on Middle East affairs.

Much of my spare time is spent reading about the Middle East, especially Lebanon, and many of my ideas and thoughts about America's mistakes in that region are shaped by that research.

Livyjr --- hope your flute playing went well. You keep coming up with new talents.

A.B.

[jeffmoskin]

To make one final comment on Yassir Arafat.

He had many negatives. My relatives in Lebanon have told me how much he was despised by the Lebanese people.

However, he did accomplish one thing very well, and will probably be remembered by the Palestinians in a very favorable way for a long, long time.

What he did well was to keep alive the hopes and aspirations of the Palestinian people for a state of their own for years when events could have discouraged them from ever dreaming there would be a nation called Palestine. He almost willed them into refusing to give up that dream. Nobody else came close to doing that.

And I give him full credit for that.

I believe what he did was to keep alive the FALSE hopes and aspirations of a FEW Palestinians that they were going to get back the land known as Israel. That is why he said "No" to Clinton's deal, instead of "No, but I have a counter-proposal." He simply walked away and started a second intefada. He was never interested in a peace deal.

And, yes, he kept these false hopes alive for his own ego. Power indeed does corrupt.

I pray for peace. But in order for there to be a two-state solution, the fanatics on each side must give up their hopes for the total annihilation of the other.

[Livyjr]

I pray for peace.

But in order for there to be a two-state solution, the fanatics on each side must give up their hopes for the total annihilation of the other.

And as Mr. A.B. says, there are a lot of topics that I go out of my way to leave out of here, because they are complex issues, and they are occurring in other parts of the world between OTHER peoples, who are not Americans, and so, just might have their own value systems; and I want this thread to really concentrate on LIFE in OUR America.

And one of those issues that I have largely avoided has been the state of affairs between Isreal and the Palestineans.

However, that subject is a real subject, and when it impacts on us, then it impacts on us.

And when that happens, then I guess it happens!

And here I cannot agree strongly enough with jeffmoskin about fanatics on ALL sides, and here, I must include Washington, D$C$ in that equation, and that means George W. Bush and Condo Rice!

And for any of this to make sense to any of us, WE DO NEED TO UNDERSTAND HISTORY!

The problem of course, as always, with history, is that it can overwhelm, and so, we must continue to be judicious in OUR use of it to illustrate points and to flesh out arguments, AND THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE AS WELL, illustrating points, that is, along with fleshing out arguments!

Especially with respect to Lebanon, about which we are now hearing a BIG NOISE down there in WashingtonD$C$ starting up from Bush Co. and Condo Rice.

If Ronald Raygun, who was much more a president than this one will ever be made mistakes over there DUE TO A COMPLETE AND TOTAL MISSAPPREHENSION of facts about the culture and people and history of that area, IMAGINE what this one is likely to do!

And so, Mr. A.B., jeffmoskin, as always, our task is before us!

In which case, we continue to endeavor to persevere, and carry on!

[Livyjr]

I have no desire to turn this thread into a history of Lebanon or its struggles since they were officially declared an independent country back in 1943.

I mention all of the above only to tie up some loose ends which may have developed since the original question of Yassir Arafat came up.

To make one final comment on Yassir Arafat.

He had many negatives.

My relatives in Lebanon have told me how much he was despised by the Lebanese people.

However, he did accomplish one thing very well, and will probably be remembered by the Palestinians in a very favorable way for a long, long time.

What he did well was to keep alive the hopes and aspirations of the Palestinian people for a state of their own for years when events could have discouraged them from ever dreaming there would be a nation called Palestine.

He almost willed them into refusing to give up that dream.

Nobody else came close to doing that.

And I give him full credit for that.

In that sense, I will have to disagree with my two compatriots on this thread and say that, yes, Yassir Arafat was a warrior.

He NEVER gave up, which, to me, is a highly desirable trait. 

He fell victim to his own ego, and proved once again that -----

Power corrupts.

A.B.

Ah Mr. A.B., if only simply "bulling ahead" without thought for consequences were all that it took to make a "warrior", why, even George W. Bush would be one, and that would be something, now, wouldn't it?

And here, Mr. A.B., I will not argue with your perspective on Yassir Arafat and his impact on the Palestinean peoples, because he was theirs, and they were his, and so it should remain!

I am not a Palestinean, nor do I have Middle Eastern roots, AND SO, I am neither his judge, nor theirs, that being the Palestinean people, for whom I bear no enmity towards in any way.

Yassir Arafat was not a hero of mine, but that is as it is.

Many are not, and George W. Bush would probably top out that list, so there we are with that!

I have no need to bear Yassir Arafat enmity, and I do not.

I am just largely silent about him, and spoke because I thought he was being made bigger, or "larger", than I perceive him to have been in life!

If I were in the position that the Palestinean people are in, being almost considered to be "sub-human animals" that can be killed at will as they are, woman or child, AT ANY TIME, I am not sure exactly how much "compassion" I could have for my oppressors, and I think it would be not much at all!

To judge a man, it is considered wise among some cultures to first walk a mile in his shoes!

And so, Mr. A.B., there we are, with all of that!

[Livyjr]

Ah Mr. A.B., if only simply "bulling ahead" without thought for consequences were all that it took to make a "warrior", why, even George W. Bush would be one, and that would be something, now, wouldn't it?

Yassir Arafat was not a hero of mine, but that is as it is.

Many are not, and George W. Bush would probably top out that list, so there we are with that!

And so there we are with that, indeed!

Stopped by to get gas today, and regular was $2.18 per gallon, THANKS TO GEORGE W. BUSH!

OH, that's right!

Yes, Dick Cheney, too!

He does deserve as much credit for that as George W. Bush, and maybe more!

The rape of America begins!

Business - Reuters

"IMF Chief: Oil Prices High for 2 Years"

Sat Mar 19, 9:10 AM ET

NEW DELHI (Reuters) - The world will have to live with lofty oil prices for at least the next two years due to a combination of strong demand and supply constraints, Rodrigo Rato, the managing director of the International Monetary Fund, said on Saturday.

World oil prices have climbed almost 50 percent in the past year and scaled record nominal highs on Thursday.

They closed the week within a dollar of those peaks, with U.S. light crude oil changing hands at $56.72 a barrel.

"We have to be aware that probably oil prices will stay high, although probably not at this level, in the next two years at least because of demand pressures -- there is certainly very strong demand in the world for oil -- and also because of certain supply constraints," Rato told reporters in the Indian capital.

The world economy enjoyed its strongest growth in 30 years in 2004 despite the spike in oil prices and Rato said he expected growth of more than 4 percent again this year.

But he said growth could be hit if oil stayed at current levels or climbed even higher and urged oil-producing countries to be more receptive to private-sector investment.

The Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) on Wednesday announced an immediate 500,000 barrel per day (bpd) increase in output, with another half a million bpd to come should prices fail to ease.

Top producer Saudi Arabia said the extra oil was meant to ward off an end-2005 supply crunch.

But with output already near a 25-year high, the group is stretched to meet demand growth.

Other major exporters Russia and Norway also cannot add significantly to this year's supply.

Rato said, though, the supply bottlenecks forcing prices higher also reflected a lack of refining capacity, where the major responsibility lay with oil-consuming countries.

Stricter environmental concerns, along with decades of low margins caused by overcapacity, have made major oil companies reluctant to invest in new refineries in the United States and Western Europe.

Consumers needed to be aware of the real cost of oil, while governments needed to diversify their sources of energy, he said.

"It's clear that at this level of prices -- even if they're reduced little bit in the medium term -- governments of all consuming countries have to have a very clear energy policy both in terms of demand and pricing," Rato, on the last leg of a five-day trip to China and India, said.

[Livyjr]

And so there we are with that, indeed!

Stopped by to get gas today, and regular was $2.18 per gallon, THANKS TO GEORGE W. BUSH!

OH, that's right!

Yes, Dick Cheney, too!

He does deserve as much credit for that as George W. Bush, and maybe more!

The rape of America begins!

Business - Reuters
 
"IMF Chief: Oil Prices High for 2 Years"

Sat Mar 19, 9:10 AM ET 

NEW DELHI (Reuters) - The world will have to live with lofty oil prices for at least the next two years due to a combination of strong demand and supply constraints, Rodrigo Rato, the managing director of the International Monetary Fund, said on Saturday.

World oil prices have climbed almost 50 percent in the past year and scaled record nominal highs on Thursday.

They closed the week within a dollar of those peaks, with U.S. light crude oil changing hands at $56.72 a barrel.

Consumers needed to be aware of the real cost of oil, while governments needed to diversify their sources of energy, he said.

Consumers need to be aware of the REAL COST of oil?

HHHHhhhhmmmmm.

Well, you know what?

I think that I am!

Yes, I actually do!

I have some experience in that "field" as an engineer, and some awareness of what it takes to get oil out of the ground AS CRUDE, and to get it into a barrel, for sale, AS CRUDE, and so ......

What I think is that the REAL COST of a barrel of CRUDE OIL is quite low, compared to what we are being CHARGED FOR IT, which is making someone quite a healthy PROFIT, and that is really where it is, isn't it?

Somebody has to make a PROFIT!

That is what it is all about, isn't it?

Dick?

Isn't it?

[Livyjr]

This morning, on the radio news, I heard them make a comment about how much time has now passed since we first heard the words "SHOCK" and "AWE" with respect to George W. Bush's airborne invasion of the Iraq oilfields, which was followed by an armored BLITZKREIG into the very heart of Iraq in order to stifle any resistance to the armed take-over of the Iraqi oil-fields by George W. Bush and Dick Cheney.

"SHOCK" and "AWE"!

What a load of horse crap that all was!

As if George W. Bush were forty feet tall and ---- like a -----!

Yeah, right!

"Activists protest Iraq war on anniversary"

By SAM DOLNICK, Associated Press
Last updated: 6:15 p.m., Saturday, March 19, 2005

NEW YORK -- Anti-war activists marched in the streets of American cities big and small Saturday, stopping traffic and lying down alongside flag-draped cardboard coffins to mark the second anniversary of the start of the war in Iraq.

Some of the demonstrators were arrested in New York as they demanded that U.S. troops be brought home.

"This country was founded by acts of civil disobedience," said David McReynolds, 75, of New York, as he marched along 42nd Street.

"We have an obligation to make our resistance public and to say as clearly as we can that the war is illegal."

In San Francisco, hundreds of protesters rallied in Dolores Park in the city's Mission district, holding up posters with photographs of dead American soldiers.

The protesters then marched to San Francisco City Hall for another rally.

One protester dressed up like the hooded Iraqi prisoner in the famous photo taken of detainee abuse at Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison.

The woman was surrounded by others wearing masks of President Bush, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, who were dancing to the song "Shout" by the Isley Brothers.

"This is a war of aggression," said Ed McManus, 54, a Marin County resident who served in the Navy during the Vietnam War.

"Bush has admitted by his actions and his deeds that he is a war criminal."

Organizers encouraged civility at rallies in the city, where protests just after the war began were among the most vocal and angry in the country, with thousands of arrests and frequent conflicts between police and demonstrators.

Police wearing helmets and armed with batons lined the streets Saturday, but they reported no disturbances.

Across Europe, tens of thousands of protesters also packed streets and public parks to protest the war.

In England, 45,000 people marched from London's Hyde Park past the American Embassy to Trafalgar Square, while an estimated 15,000 people -- some carrying signs reading "Murderer Bush, get out" -- marched in Turkey.

Hundreds in New York listened to anti-war speeches at the United Nations, then marched along 42nd Street across Manhattan to Times Square, where police penned them in on a sidewalk.

A small contingent of protesters then knelt in front of a military recruiting station and lay down on Broadway next to the flag-draped coffins.

Traffic was stopped for about five minutes before police moved in and arrested 27 protesters.

"It's such a small act in light of over 100,000 Iraqis dead and 1,500 American soldiers dead," Anna Brown, 40, of Jersey City, N.J., said before she was arrested.

In Chicago, hundreds of police, some in riot gear, escorted about a thousand marchers down Dearborn Avenue to an afternoon rally at the Federal Plaza.

Police were trying to avoid a repeat of two years ago when thousands of protesters caused a huge traffic jam during rush hour and hundreds were arrested.

Only two arrests were reported Saturday.

More than 1,000 people also marched through Pittsburgh, including many who initially supported the war but have since changed their minds, said Tim Vining, a protest organizer.

"It's not what even people who supported this war in the beginning, it's not what they signed up for," he said.

"I think people realize the tide is turning" and that to protest isn't seen as unpatriotic.

In the small town of Cottage Grove, Ore., just south of Eugene, about 230 protesters walked two-by-two through the streets, some carrying bells, others holding a half-mile-long chain of flags bearing the names of American troops and Iraqi children killed during the war.

"The best thing we can do is get out, and get out as fast as we can," said Ron Betts, 58, a disabled Vietnam veteran.

About 300 demonstrators also gathered in front of the New Mexico National Guard Armory in Albuquerque, some holding signs saying, "Bush's lies kill" and "You can't be pro-life and pro-war."

Pieces of paper were glued to the sidewalk, all bearing the names and faces of dead American soldiers.

"That's a whole tsunami worth of people, vanished," said Maureen Small, an Albuquerque physician.

------

Associated Press writers Justin M. Norton in San Francisco, Dan Nephin in Pittsburgh, Peter Barnes in Albuquerque and Niki Sullivan in Cottage Grove, Ore., contributed to this report.

[Livyjr]

This morning, on the radio news, I heard them make a comment about how much time has now passed since we first heard the words "SHOCK" and "AWE" with respect to George W. Bush's airborne invasion of the Iraq oilfields, which was followed by an armored BLITZKREIG into the very heart of Iraq in order to stifle any resistance to the armed take-over of the Iraqi oil-fields by George W. Bush and Dick Cheney.

"SHOCK" and "AWE"!

What a load of horse crap that all was!

As if George W. Bush were forty feet tall and ---- like a -----!

Yeah, right!

"Activists protest Iraq war on anniversary" 
 
By SAM DOLNICK, Associated Press
Last updated: 6:15 p.m., Saturday, March 19, 2005

NEW YORK -- Anti-war activists marched in the streets of American cities big and small Saturday, stopping traffic and lying down alongside flag-draped cardboard coffins to mark the second anniversary of the start of the war in Iraq.

Some of the demonstrators were arrested in New York as they demanded that U.S. troops be brought home.

"This country was founded by acts of civil disobedience," said David McReynolds, 75, of New York, as he marched along 42nd Street.

"We have an obligation to make our resistance public and to say as clearly as we can that the war is illegal."

One protester dressed up like the hooded Iraqi prisoner in the famous photo taken of detainee abuse at Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison.

The woman was surrounded by others wearing masks of President Bush, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, who were dancing to the song "Shout" by the Isley Brothers.

"This is a war of aggression," said Ed McManus, 54, a Marin County resident who served in the Navy during the Vietnam War.

"Bush has admitted by his actions and his deeds that he is a war criminal."

Across Europe, tens of thousands of protesters also packed streets and public parks to protest the war.

In England, 45,000 people marched from London's Hyde Park past the American Embassy to Trafalgar Square, while an estimated 15,000 people -- some carrying signs reading "Murderer Bush, get out" -- marched in Turkey.

"It's such a small act in light of over 100,000 Iraqis dead and 1,500 American soldiers dead," Anna Brown, 40, of Jersey City, N.J., said before she was arrested.

More than 1,000 people also marched through Pittsburgh, including many who initially supported the war but have since changed their minds, said Tim Vining, a protest organizer.

"It's not what even people who supported this war in the beginning, it's not what they signed up for," he said.

"I think people realize the tide is turning" and that to protest isn't seen as unpatriotic.

"The best thing we can do is get out, and get out as fast as we can," said Ron Betts, 58, a disabled Vietnam veteran.

About 300 demonstrators also gathered in front of the New Mexico National Guard Armory in Albuquerque, some holding signs saying, "Bush's lies kill" and "You can't be pro-life and pro-war."

Pieces of paper were glued to the sidewalk, all bearing the names and faces of dead American soldiers.

"That's a whole tsunami worth of people, vanished," said Maureen Small, an Albuquerque physician.

And while those honorable Americans are utilizing THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS in a socially responsible manner, TO ME, at least, what does the Bush Co. have to say about things in Iraq, today, or the Middle East, or even here, in OUR America, where gas is going to be a luxury for me, since it already is right now, and I personally have never been less secure at any other time in my life than I am right now:

White House - AP

"Bush: Saddam's Ouster Inspired Reformers"

Sat Mar 19, 2:07 PM ET

By JENNIFER LOVEN, Associated Press Writer

WACO, Texas - The U.S. military victory against Saddam Hussein's regime in Iraq gets the credit for "inspiring democratic reformers from Beirut to Tehran," President Bush said Saturday.

"Today, women can vote in Afghanistan, Palestinians are breaking the old patterns of violence, and hundreds of thousands of Lebanese are rising up to demand their sovereignty and democratic rights," Bush said in a weekly radio address that marked the two-year anniversary of the start of the Iraq war.

"These are landmark events in the history of freedom," he said.

With his primary rationale for the war — Saddam's alleged possession of weapons of mass destruction — discredited, Bush has turned to the argument that the war in Iraq was justified because it freed the Iraqi people from a brutal dictator and now gives the Middle East a model for democracy.

Bush said "the Iraqi people are taking charge of their own destiny," citing the country's first free and fair elections in its modern history, this week's first meeting of the Transitional National Assembly and the upcoming drafting of a constitution for a "free and democratic Iraq."

Against that progress, insurgents have carried on a relentless campaign of suicide bombings, kidnappings and beheadings while rampant crime, power outages, unemployment over 50 percent and a fuel crisis in one of the world's prime oil-exporting countries continues.

Even as the Iraqi legislators convened, they did not set a new date to meet reconvene, elect a speaker or nominate a president and vice president.

Some have questioned Bush's repeated claims that recent democratic developments in several global hotspots are due to both the Iraq war and his second-term drive to push for reforms in friend and foe.

Still, the president has pointed to democratic gains in Afghanistan, Ukraine, Lebanon and the Palestinian territories, as well as the relatively peaceful elections in Iraq.

"Today we're seeing hopeful signs across the broader Middle East," Bush said.

"The victory of freedom in Iraq is strengthening a new ally in the war on terror, and inspiring democratic reformers from Beirut to Tehran."

The president saluted military personnel who died in Iraq, numbering more than 1,500 since the start of the war in March 2003, and the families who have endured long separations from loved ones.

"I know that nothing can end the pain of the families who have lost loved ones in this struggle, but they can know that their sacrifice has added to America's security and the freedom of the world," he said.

"Because of our actions, freedom is taking root in Iraq, and the American people are more secure."

Bush is spending the weekend at his ranch in Crawford, Texas, arriving there Friday night after a day traveling in Florida to pitch his plans to overhaul Social Security.

On Monday, he embarks on a two-day trip in the West to continue pitching his Social Security proposals and then returns to his ranch for meetings Wednesday with Mexican President Vicente Fox and Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin.

Afterward, Bush plans to spend the rest of Easter week at the ranch before going back to Washington.

[Indianhead]

"I think war is a dangerous place!"

- George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.; May 7, 2003

What does he know about war?
He thinks it's a political instrument.

Instead it is a viseral test of the honor
of men, those who belive in "duty".

It is dirty, it is violent, it is mean.
It requires that men are able to end all
the hopes, dreams, and potential family
of others like them.

And, until GWB is able to "play the game"
he has no place to discuss it.
There was a line in Platoon: "What do you
know about death?"

Another line: in The Unforgiven-
Killin' takes all a man is and all he
ever will be.

And, to do it you have to be ready to give
up all you have and will have. When you ask
men to do this you had better be just.

When you play God, you had better know Him,
because He will judge you. Lord please forgive me.

[Livyjr]

What does he know about war?

He thinks it's a political instrument.

When you play God, you had better know Him,
because He will judge you.

Lord please forgive me.

Indianhead, welcome aboard!

Your words have quite a bit of "impact" in them, and that is for sure.

And you are right "dead on" the money with your statement above about George W. Bush USING war as a political instrument, although to me, it really may be as a religious instrument as well, as in Mr. A.B's "Religion and Politics" thread on George W. Bush and the Holy Bible, we have tracked in there the statements made by George W. Bush that he is in fact an instrument of God himself, and so makes war in God's name, which is something that I personally have not heard from another living world leader in my own lifetime.

And the last that I can think of would have been Hitler and the Japanese under the "divine" Emporer.

Which brings me to your last words above which I have highlighted in red.

I would say that of all the topics that I hear discussed in the "real world" out there, that is high up on the list, this supposed "divinity" of George W. Bush himself, and whether or not he does really act in God's name, as his "agency" down here on earth.

There is a movie by Werner Hertzog, I believe it is, entitled "Aguirre, Wrath of God", and Klaus Kinski plays Aguirre, who is a Conquistador "soldier" in the Andes mountains with Pizarro, I think it was.

When I think of George W. Bush "playing at war", for sport, or whatever it is that motivates that man, and it could be God for all we know, for God's own mysterious purposes, I am led to think of Klaus Kinski as "Aguirre" in that movie, and we are all along for the "ride" just as were the others of that ill-fated "expedition" who were stuck with Aguirre as their "leader", the WRATH OF GOD!

People like George W. Bush are DESTROYERS who BRING THINGS DOWN, and cause consternation on the face of the earth!

The question in here is why God would choose George W. Bush AT THIS TIME, to fulfill that purpose, in OUR lifetimes?

And it is not a frivolous question!

It is a deadly serious one, as many of OUR troops have already found out, along with countless Iraqis who just happened to be in George W. Bush's "sights" that day, and so were nothing more than fodder for his killing!

Perhaps what the American people really need to consider is that when YOU SUPPORT A MAN WHO PLAYS AT BEING "GOD", AND CAUSES HUMAN MISERY AND SUFFERING IN HIS NAME, WHICH YOU THEN GLORIFY, AND REJOICE AT, THEN YOU TOO, HAD BETTER KNOW GOD AS WELL, FOR YOU TOO SHALL BE JUDGED!

And if you can't handle that "reality", perhaps you should not "walk the road" that will lead you to go there!

[Livyjr]

Indianhead, welcome aboard!

Your words have quite a bit of "impact" in them, and that is for sure.

And you are right "dead on" the money with your statement above about George W. Bush USING war as a political instrument, although to me, it really may be as a religious instrument as well, as in Mr. A.B's "Religion and Politics" thread on George W. Bush and the Holy Bible, we have tracked in there the statements made by George W. Bush that he is in fact an instrument of God himself, and so makes war in God's name, which is something that I personally have not heard from another living world leader in my own lifetime.

And the last that I can think of would have been Hitler and the Japanese under the "divine" Emporer.

People like George W. Bush are DESTROYERS who BRING THINGS DOWN, and cause consternation on the face of the earth!

The question in here is why God would choose George W. Bush AT THIS TIME, to fulfill that purpose, in OUR lifetimes?

And it is not a frivolous question!

It is a deadly serious one, as many of OUR troops have already found out, along with countless Iraqis who just happened to be in George W. Bush's "sights" that day, and so were nothing more than fodder for his killing!

Perhaps what the American people really need to consider is that when YOU SUPPORT A MAN WHO PLAYS AT BEING "GOD", AND CAUSES HUMAN MISERY AND SUFFERING IN HIS NAME, WHICH YOU THEN GLORIFY, AND REJOICE AT, THEN YOU TOO, HAD BETTER KNOW GOD AS WELL, FOR YOU TOO SHALL BE JUDGED!

And if you can't handle that "reality", perhaps you should not "walk the road" that will lead you to go there!

And that brings us to today!

SO!

How about that?

This morning, when I turned on the radio, the local news was on, and a bunch of business people were "lamenting" that because of the high cost of gas and fuel, business in upstate New York related to fishing was likely to be down quite a bit, because not only is fuel for your vehicle quite a bit more expensive, but gas for boats, if you buy it at a marina, will be right out of sight.

And then one of them said words to the effect of "Somebody needs to do something about this", and all I could think of was "WHY DIDN'T YOU WHEN YOU HAD THE CHANCE AT THE POLLS LAST NOVEMBER?"

THE LONG HARD RIDE FOR AMERICA HAS BEGUN, and with it comes the inevitable weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, to which I say, "BUCK UP, BOYS, FOR IT HAS ONLY JUST BEGUN!"

And who of us shall survive to see the other side, if in fact there is to be one?

Stay tuned!

That is something we are all quite curious about in here, as George W. Bush and Condoleeza "CON-JOB" Rice now get set to take on ALL OF EUROPE over the question of who is the BIGGEST, BADDEST NATION ON THE FACE OF THIS EARTH:

World - AP Asia

"Rice: European Nations Must Not Arm China"

1 hour, 15 minutes ago

By ANNE GEARAN, AP Diplomatic Writer

BEIJING - Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice suggested Sunday that European governments are irresponsible if they sell sophisticated weaponry to China that might one day be used against U.S. forces in the Pacific.

"It is the United States, not Europe, that is defending the Pacific," Rice said.

She spoke in Seoul, the penultimate stop on her weeklong tour of Asia.

South Korea, Japan and the United States are all Pacific powers and all contribute resources to keep the Asia-Pacific region stable, Rice said.

The European Union may soon lift an arms embargo on China that was imposed after the deadly 1989 crackdown on pro-democracy protesters in Tiananmen Square.

Lifting the embargo would allow sale of technology and weapons that China badly wants to modernize its creaky military.

China has recently gone on a military spending spree that Rice said concerns the United States.

"The European Union should do nothing to contribute," to the possibility that Chinese forces might turn European technology on Americans, Rice said after meetings with the South Korean president and foreign minister.

Rice has earlier said that China's recent statements about a possible invasion of Taiwan should give the Europeans pause.

China passed a law this month codifying its intention to use military force against Taiwan should the island declare formal independence.

Rice said she would raise U.S. objections to the Taiwan development with Chinese officials in two days of talks, along with long-standing concerns over Chinese human rights practices and violations of intellectual property rights.

Rice will also ask China for more help to persuade communist North Korea to return to international nuclear disarmament talks.

The Pyongyang government of Kim Jong Il announced last month what the United States has long suspected: It has already built at least one nuclear weapon.

The United States, Russia, Japan, South Korea and China began a joint diplomatic effort with North Korea last year aimed at persuading the country to give up its nuclear program.

But those six-nation talks, hosted by China, stalled in September, when the North Koreans pulled out and refused to return to the discussions.

In Seoul, Rice conducted an unusual press conference with Korean Internet reporters.

The event, meant to highlight the freewheeling nature of computer communication in an open democracy, got off to a bad start when American security guards tackled a peace activist as he shouted to get Rice's attention.

"Miss Rice, the North Korean people are dying and they are crying for your help," yelled the activist, German physician and former aid worker Norbert Vollertsen.

He held up a poster that read "Freedom for North Korea: 50 Years Overdue," until a State Department employee ripped the poster in half.

As Rice took her seat for the news conference, security officers literally muffled Vollertsen while wrestling him to the carpeted floor.

He had talked his way into the event before Rice arrived, but a U.S. Embassy public affairs officer recognized him at the last moment and demanded he be removed.

In replies to the Korean journalists, Rice described TRUE DEMOCRACY as the ability to "say what you wish, worship as you please and educate your children, boys and girls."

In contrast to the closed society of North Korea, Rice said, "you can come here and think what you want and ask me anything — the United States secretary of state — and what a wonderful thing that is."

end quotes

So long as you do not ask about peace or whatever for North Korea, I guess, right "CON-JOB"?

[Livyjr]

And that brings us to today!

SO!

How about that?

World - AP Asia

"Rice: European Nations Must Not Arm China"

By ANNE GEARAN, AP Diplomatic Writer

BEIJING - Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice suggested Sunday that European governments are irresponsible if they sell sophisticated weaponry to China that might one day be used against U.S. forces in the Pacific.

"It is the United States, not Europe, that is defending the Pacific," Rice said.

She spoke in Seoul, the penultimate stop on her weeklong tour of Asia.

In Seoul, Rice conducted an unusual press conference with Korean Internet reporters.

The event, meant to highlight the freewheeling nature of computer communication in an open democracy, got off to a bad start when American security guards tackled a peace activist as he shouted to get Rice's attention.

"Miss Rice, the North Korean people are dying and they are crying for your help," yelled the activist, German physician and former aid worker Norbert Vollertsen.

He held up a poster that read "Freedom for North Korea: 50 Years Overdue," until a State Department employee ripped the poster in half.

As Rice took her seat for the news conference, security officers literally muffled Vollertsen while wrestling him to the carpeted floor.

He had talked his way into the event before Rice arrived, but a U.S. Embassy public affairs officer recognized him at the last moment and demanded he be removed.

In replies to the Korean journalists, Rice described TRUE DEMOCRACY as the ability to "say what you wish, worship as you please and educate your children, boys and girls."

In contrast to the closed society of North Korea, Rice said, "you can come here and think what you want and ask me anything — the United States secretary of state — and what a wonderful thing that is."

end quotes

So long as you do not ask about peace or whatever for North Korea, I guess, right "CON-JOB"?

And for some reason, and whoever knows what they really are, that bit of "HIGH WIERDNESS" with "MISS CON-JOB" and "demockery" over there in Seoul brings me back here to the continental United States, and up here to the corrupt EMPIRE STATE of Bush Co. "MONEY MAN" George Pataki, where the serfs and other commoners are now making some noise, for which they may have to be "put down hard" by the Pataki "GOD-SQUAD", about Pataki's plans to give the GOOD CHRISTIANS AND OTHER ASSORTED PILGRIMS out there in OUR America all they can handle in terms of having as many places as possible besides stuffy Las Vegas, and long-in-the-tooth, and seedy Atlantic City to go and do their necessary "tithing", er, GAMBLING, WHICH, OF COURSE, IN PATAKI'S VIEW, should be the corrupt EMPIRE STATE!

After all, why should the GEETUS and MOOLAH, which he worships, go in to a pocket other than his?

He's as good a christian as the next man, isn't he?

"Poll finds stakes too high for more casinos - Capital Region survey shows concern over betting's social cost"

By JAMES M. ODATO, Capitol bureau, Albany, New York Times Union
First published: Sunday, March 20, 2005

ALBANY -- The social cost of Gov. George Pataki's plan to build five tribal casinos in the Catskills would outweigh any economic benefit, according to an exclusive poll of Capital Region residents, a majority of whom claim they aren't big on betting anyway.

Yet a majority say they would support the construction of five new American Indian casinos if they were spread across the state.

They also favor raising money from new casinos over raising taxes.

The Times Union/NewsChannel 13/Siena Poll, conducted by the Siena Research Institute Monday through Wednesday, comes at a time when the issue of whether to expand gambling is being hotly debated in the Capitol.

The survey, which has a margin of error of plus or minus 3.9 percentage points, polled 620 people in Albany, Rensselaer, Saratoga and Schenectady counties.

Most surprising was the large number of people -- 58 percent -- who claimed they rarely gamble on anything anywhere.

The Capital Region is home to the state's premier thoroughbred race track and most productive VLT gambling hall; is home to the New York State Lottery; and is an easy bus ride to several casinos, including Turning Stone in Verona, Oneida County, and Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun in Connecticut.

"When I first looked at it, I said, 'Boy that can't be!' " said research director Douglas Lonnstrom.

"But I haven't been to the track in years, and I've never been to OTB."

He said the region's older, more conservative population comes from backgrounds in which gambling was considered improper.

Indeed, a key finding suggests that while most people of middle age or older don't gamble, young people are more likely drawn to casinos, horse racing and other forms of betting.

People with higher incomes also are more likely to go to the track, presumably Saratoga Race Course, while those who play the state-sanctioned Division of Lottery games come from all income brackets, the poll shows.

Michael Connery, president of Capital District Regional Off-Track Betting Corp., said he was shocked to learn that 88 percent of his prime market claimed they've never been to an OTB parlor.

Surprising, too, he said, were the 79 percent who said they haven't been to racinos like the one at the Saratoga Springs harness track; the 97 percent who said they have never used an Internet gambling site; and the 26 percent who said they have never played a lottery game.

Meanwhile, 44 percent said they play a lottery game occasionally.

Of those polled, 58 percent said they have never gambled at a casino, and just 20 percent said they do so less than once a year.

Sixteen percent said they go up to six times annually; 2 percent, up to 12 times a year; 1 percent, up to 24 times; and 1 percent, more than 25 times.

However, while 44 percent of those surveyed said they would be more likely to try their luck at a casino if ones are established in the Catskills, the respondents also overwhelmingly said they still were "not very likely" to gamble at any of them.

Beyond that, only 8 percent supported Pataki's five-casino Catskills plan, while just more than half those polled said they would prefer spreading five new Indian casinos throughout the state.

"It's a total mix; it's almost a total wash," said Ben Liebman, coordinator of the Racing & Gaming Program at Albany Law School.

He said the poll results could be used by both sides in the casino argument.

"What it's not good for is the notion of having five casinos in the Catskills, but in terms of overall expansion, it's pretty clear that people aren't sure how to proceed."

He said the percentages of people claiming to gamble, though low, probably are about normal for the United States and probably somewhat above average for playing the horses and lottery games.

Pataki has a bill before the Legislature to settle Indian land claims and allow the construction of five tribal casinos.

The Assembly is holding hearings on the bill, including one in Albany on April 5.

The Senate is preparing to vote on the measure by early next month.

Several lawmakers said the findings are intriguing.

"It sounds like they'd like to spread them out, but that's not practical," said state Sen. Hugh Farley, R-Niskayuna.

He said he dislikes the concept of a proliferation of casinos because of the troubles they can bring to people who can't control their betting.

"I'd rather my daughter marry a drunk than a gambler," he said.

Sen. John Bonacic, R-Mount Hope, who represents the Sullivan County region targeted for the casinos, said siting the projects elsewhere in New York wouldn't make economic sense.

The Indian nations and their development partners want to build Las Vegas-like and resort-style casinos in the Catskills to draw customers from New York City to an area state-elected officials specifically selected for casino expansion.

In 2001, the Legislature and Pataki created a law that allows three casinos in Ulster or Sullivan counties.

Pataki now proposes two more in that region.

His goal is to settle Indian land claims, create jobs and use the state's cut of slot machine revenue to finance public education.

"They're looking for a maximum return for the state and the investor," Bonacic said.

"That's what's going to drive the development, not what people think."

He said plenty of people from the Capital Region would venture the 2 hours to the Sullivan County venues once they were marketed as destination attractions.

As for Pataki, his spokesman said the poll provides some ammunition for the governor's view that the state is exporting billions in gambling dollars.

Sixty-five percent of those polled said they would be less likely to go out of state to gamble if casinos were built in the Catskills.

"New York needs to compete, so we can keep jobs and revenues in New York for New Yorkers as opposed to going to Canada or other states like Connecticut, New Jersey and Pennsylvania," said Pataki aide Todd Alhart.

"This fully squares with what Capital Region residents are saying."

Brendan White, a spokesman for the St. Regis Mohawk Tribe, said the casino it proposes for Monticello would satisfy poll respondents who indicated job-creation and revenue production are important to them.

Lee Karr, a leader of the anti-casino faction in Sullivan County, said the poll results seem inconsistent: Respondents say casinos would damage the Catskills, yet they also say it's better to raise revenue for the state from casinos than from taxes.

"Such inconsistency is characteristic of a population that is not yet truly and entirely aware of the destructive implications of increased gambling," Karr said.

Sen. Frank Padavan, R-Queens, the Legislature's most vocal gambling opponent, said the public doesn't understand there are about 250,000 problem gamblers in the state, each of whom costs taxpayers $13,000 a year to deal with their addiction.

James Maney, the New York Council on Problem Gambling's executive director, was unable to confirm Padavan's numbers, but he's concerned about the poll results that show people 18 to 34 years old are more comfortable about gambling than others.

Sixty-two percent, the highest of any age group, say adding casinos would be a way to "create new jobs, increase tourism and boost state revenues."

"This is the first age group where gambling was completely legal and acceptable," he said.

"Since it's become more socially acceptable, more folks are doing it in that age group than in other age groups."

"Are we ready to deal with the consequences as a result of this, the increase in problem gambling?"

The poll found, however, that a majority of people would rather the state find ways to economize than turn to casinos.

That's why casino expansion should be a last alternative, said Assemblyman James Tedisco, R-Schenectady.

He said the poll suggests gambling isn't as popular as one might think.

"If they don't gamble here, where do they gamble in the state of New York?" he said.

Sen. Neil Breslin, D-Bethlehem, said asking people to choose economizing over casinos is a loaded question.

"The debate on gambling will continue, and the benefits from it on balance, for education, are better than not having it," he said.

[Livyjr]

And for some reason, and whoever knows what they really are, that bit of "HIGH WIERDNESS" with "MISS CON-JOB" and "demockery" over there in Seoul brings me back here to the continental United States, and up here to the corrupt EMPIRE STATE of Bush Co. "MONEY MAN" George Pataki, where the serfs and other commoners are now making some noise, for which they may have to be "put down hard" by the Pataki "GOD-SQUAD", about Pataki's plans to give the GOOD CHRISTIANS AND OTHER ASSORTED PILGRIMS out there in OUR America all they can handle in terms of having as many places as possible besides stuffy Las Vegas, and long-in-the-tooth, and seedy Atlantic City to go and do their necessary "tithing", er, GAMBLING, WHICH, OF COURSE, IN PATAKI'S VIEW, should be the corrupt EMPIRE STATE!

After all, why should the GEETUS and MOOLAH, which he worships, go in to a pocket other than his?

He's as good a christian as the next man, isn't he?

"Poll finds stakes too high for more casinos - Capital Region survey shows concern over betting's social cost" 
 
By JAMES M. ODATO, Capitol bureau, Albany, New York Times Union
First published: Sunday, March 20, 2005

ALBANY -- The social cost of Gov. George Pataki's plan to build five tribal casinos in the Catskills would outweigh any economic benefit, according to an exclusive poll of Capital Region residents, a majority of whom claim they aren't big on betting anyway.

"It sounds like they'd like to spread them out, but that's not practical," said state Sen. Hugh Farley, R-Niskayuna.

He said he dislikes the concept of a proliferation of casinos because of the troubles they can bring to people who can't control their betting.

"I'd rather my daughter marry a drunk than a gambler," he said.

Well, I don't have a daughter, BUT ....

If I did, I would hope that she would be able to find a man in her life who was simply hard-working!

Let this politician's daughter marry a drunk, if he wants a drunk for a son-in-law, but sorry, not me!

Of course, if this Pataki has his way, maybe that is all the next generation of women up here will have for their choices - DRUNKS, or GAMBLERS!

And how about that for some choices, will you?

As for me, I think that I am glad that I am old, and so had a chance to see what life outside the sewer really looked and smelled like, before George Pataki and HIS CROWD came along, and buried it under a brown haze that emanates from the top of State Street Hill in George Pataki's CAPITAL CITY of Albany, New York!

[Livyjr]

.... and up here to the corrupt EMPIRE STATE of Bush Co. "MONEY MAN" George Pataki, where the serfs and other commoners are now making some noise, for which they may have to be "put down hard" by the Pataki "GOD-SQUAD", about Pataki's plans to give the GOOD CHRISTIANS AND OTHER ASSORTED PILGRIMS out there in OUR America all they can handle in terms of having as many places as possible besides stuffy Las Vegas, and long-in-the-tooth, and seedy Atlantic City to go and do their necessary "tithing", er, GAMBLING, WHICH, OF COURSE, IN PATAKI'S VIEW, should be the corrupt EMPIRE STATE!

After all, why should the GEETUS and MOOLAH, which he worships, go in to a pocket other than his?

He's as good a christian as the next man, isn't he?

"Poll finds stakes too high for more casinos - Capital Region survey shows concern over betting's social cost" 
 
By JAMES M. ODATO, Capitol bureau, Albany, New York Times Union
First published: Sunday, March 20, 2005

ALBANY -- The social cost of Gov. George Pataki's plan to build five tribal casinos in the Catskills would outweigh any economic benefit, according to an exclusive poll of Capital Region residents, a majority of whom claim they aren't big on betting anyway.

He said the region's older, more conservative population comes from backgrounds in which gambling was considered improper.

GAMBLING FEVER!

Hey, folks, you just have to have it, you know, OR YOU JUST ARE NOT A GOOD MURIKAN!

It's for ED-JU-MA-CA-TION, after all, or didn't you know that?

And yes, it is!

Up here, where to be a member in GOOD STANDING of the corrupt EMPIRE STATE, "gambling" for the sake of ED-JU-MA-CA-TION is now muti-generational, where the older generations are teaching their children and grandchildren how to GAMBLE, so as to be GOOD CHRISTIANS AND PILGRIMS FOR GEORGE PATAKI, in the cause of ED-JU-MA-CA-TION, as he likes to tell us non-gamblers, anyway!

Of course, if GAMBLING was really this panacea, WHY DO MY SCHOOL TAXES KEEP ROCKETING UPWARDS LIKE AN ICBM, and why can't kids getting out of OUR schools up here READ, or do basic math without an expensive calculator or computer at hand to do the math for them?

Probably too busy gambling with their parents and grandparents in the name of putting a lot of GEETUS and MOOLAH in the over-stuffed pocket of the corrupt EMPIRE STATE, in the name of ED-JU-MA-CA-TION, FOR THEM TO ACTUALLY HAVE ANY SPARE TIME LEFT OVER, in which to get an actual education, outside of how to work a slot machine, or how to properly "scratch off" a SCRATCH-OFF from the NEW YORK STATE LOTTERY!

BUT ......

NEVER FEAR, says George W. Bush!

BECAUSE OF THIS, HIS AMERICA IS SOMEHOW MORE SECURE!

Or the "CASH-FLOW" from them to him is, anyway, AND THAT IS ALL THAT COUNTS, ISN'T IT?

After all, aren't we the PREMIER CAPITALISTIC NATION in the whole universe?

Which is why George W. Bush sent those probes to Mars, from what I hear, which was to take a survey up there of how many MARTIANS would come to George Pataki's CORRUPT EMPIRE STATE to take a turn at working the slot machines, for ED-JU-MA-CA-TION, of course, which, after all, is one of GOD's great plans for us, that we all know how to properly gamble!

And thereby show all the candid world just how good a CHRISTIAN we are as well!

[jeffmoskin]

What does he know about war?
He thinks it's a political instrument.

Welcome aboard, Indianhead.

Bush has been reading (scratch that - Bush can't read). The neo CON ARTISTS have been reading Clausewitz who wrote, 100 odd years ago, that:

"War is a continuation of policy by other means".

Perhaps Caspar Weinberger's 6 rules are more useful:



1. Commit only if our or our allies' vital interests are at stake.

2. If we commit, do so with all the resources necessary to win.

3. Go in only with clear political and military objectives.

4. Be ready to change the commitment if the objectives change, since wars rarely stand still.

5. Only take on commitments that can gain the support of the American people and the Congress.

6. Commit US forces only as a last resort.


How many of these six have the NEO CON MEN covered? By my count, ZERO.