Life in OUR America, Volume 2, The Livyjr Files Options

[anderson_perry]

Chapter 7

Of how Enoch was taken on to the second heaven

1 And those men took me and led me up on to the second heaven, and showed me darkness, greater than earthly darkness, and there I saw prisoners hanging, watched, awaiting the great and boundless judgment, and these angels were dark-looking, more than earthly darkness, and incessantly making weeping through all hours.

2 And I said to the men who were with me: Wherefore are these incessantly tortured? They answered me: These are God’s apostates, who obeyed not God’s commands, but took counsel with their own will, and turned away with their prince, who also is fastened on the fifth heaven.

3 And I felt great pity for them, and they saluted me, and said to me: Man of God, pray for us to the Lord; and I answered to them: Who am I, a mortal man, that I should pray for angels? Who knows whither I go, or what will befall me? Or who will pray for me?

i just happen to read this... make no wonder human kind is so religious, all aliens had to do was run a few trips to scare the heck out of some unsuspecting earthling and whela, instant world wide religion.

- perry

[Morambar in TX]

what i find interesting is that i first heard of prescott bush while reviewing MJ5 or the majestic five, also known as the folks that tried to minimize the events of Roswell and other related incidents....

- perry

Still can't document any non/connection between Vannevar and the other Bushes. I did a search an hour and a half ago, and when I clicked on "Vannevar Bush family tree" I got directed to a bunch of porn and my computer crashed....

[Morambar in TX]

I wonder, perry, myself about knowledge and abilities that the "ancients" had, that surpass some of our abilities today, in the field of engineering, for example, and in the knowledge that the ancient Taoists had about the human body itself, in an age where no modern scientific equipment, such as electron microscopes, existed that would have allowed those ancients to "see" some of what they knew to be.

I always find this thing of "knowledge" to be an interesting equation, because "knowledge" never seems to be distributed equally among all peoples in all places, and the "sum" of all knowledge, so to speak, is also not in any way constant.

What knowledge there once was is not necessarily what there is today, and so, I wonder.

And I don't have a problem with angels, perry!

Why shouldn't they exist, too?

After all, we do!

Have you heard about the aboriginal African tribe with a religion in which the white dwarf orbiting Sirius figures prominently? They've known about for centuries; we found it in the '60s.

[Morambar in TX]

Politics

"Critics say Frist using religion for political ends - Connection to groups may be sign of future run for higher office"

I still thnk tomhye has the right idea on how to fix this (refer to "April 24th Anniversary of genocide against Armenian Christians.") Covering up the first genocide to be called such to get your pipeline/military concerns taken care of, one perpetrated AGAINST CHRISTIANS, by going after your political opponents is the hiegth of hypocrisy. It also happens to BE anti-Christian. The Anti-Christ persecuted the Church of Smyrna; now his allies do the same, but then, the Bible doesn't say the Anti-Christ will abolish religion, but CLAIM TO FULFILL IT.

[anderson_perry]

Have you heard about the aboriginal African tribe with a religion in which the white dwarf orbiting Sirius figures prominently?  They've known about for centuries; we found it in the '60s.

wow

- perry

[anderson_perry]

Still can't document any non/connection between Vannevar and the other Bushes.  I did a search an hour and a half ago, and when I clicked on "Vannevar Bush family tree" I got directed to a bunch of porn and my computer crashed....

i looked it up and got the coolest link... GZigZag - A Platform for Cybertext Experiments

i'll try to remember it for future applications. i'm wondering if Vannevar is in any way related to GW.

- perry

[anderson_perry]

On the Trail of the Memex
Vannevar Bush, Weblogs and the Google Galaxy

"Hypertext as mediated by the Web browser has not proved to embody the qualities of the ideal post-structural text longed for by literary theorists such as George Landow; neither has the World Wide Web fulfilled the document-association function of the memex, the hypothetical research tool Vannevar Bush described in his 1945 essay, As We May Think. Bush’s memex was not merely a form of photo-mechanical hypertext, but also a means for the full-scale transfer of complex collaborative thought processes, as encoded by individual researchers via their own personal document association schemas. While weblogs, the most influential textual genre truly native to the World Wide Web, do facilitate the exchange of information across the Internet, that information must be carefully filtered in order to be useful. Google’s February 2003 purchase of the popular weblogging platform Blogger signals a shift towards content production that may create a conflict of interest; nevertheless, Google’s proven ability to mine the data encoded in annotated trails of linked documents may create the synergy necessary to fulfill Vannevar Bush’s vision."

another one

- perry

[anderson_perry]

this is cool

- perry

[Morambar in TX]

I saw your comment earlier, Morambar, but did not have an opportunity to address it at that time, and one of my thoughts is that your comment says much about you, if you know about this thing, and its impact on us today, if there might be one!

I am just coming back here right now from Mr. A.B.'s "FDR v. George W. Bush" thread, and earlier today, I was thinking that the Bush's and FDR have in essence been at war themselves since WWII, and that war is ideological, where FDR had one distinct point of view about the activities of George Herbert Walker and Prescott "Cottie" Bush in alleged connection with the National Socialists of Germany in the 1930's, and they had another.

SO!

There is no real surprise in the minds of many that these Nazis were brought over here, by OUR government, after WWII, and FDR's death.

But many people today do not even know of what you are talking about here, and I would be very surprised if any young people do, and so!

Operation Paperclip
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
(Redirected from Project paperclip)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_papercl

Allen Dulles (Op architect)

External links

http://www.wsmr.army.mil/pao/FactSheets/V2/v-2.htm

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip"

Bush's friend and fellow "bonesman" Knight Woolley, another partner at BBH, wrote to Averill Harriman in January 1933 warning of problems with CSSC after the Poles started their drive to nationalise the plant.

"The Consolidated Silesian Steel Company situation has become increasingly complicated, and I have accordingly brought in Sullivan and Cromwell, in order to be sure that our interests are protected," wrote Knight.

"After studying the situation Foster Dulles is insisting that their man in Berlin get into the picture and obtain the information which the directors here should have."

"You will recall that Foster is a director and he is particularly anxious to be certain that there is no liability attaching to the American directors."

But the ownership of the CSSC between 1939 when the Germans invaded Poland and 1942 when the US government vested UBC and SAC is not clear.

I totally missed that earlier, sorry. Let's just see here, John Foster Dulles was a director of CSSC and his brother, who ultimately ran the CIA at the time of JFK's assassination and sat on the Warren commission, directed Operation Paperclip. Conclusion: The Nazis weren't defeated in 1945, they just immigrated, and NOT to Argentina. So what do we do about it?

BTW, young is a relative term. I'm only 30, but I have an intense interest in history, particularly since November 11, 1918, for obvious reasons. For the record, I've been relatively restrained, if you can believe it. Remind me to give you my rant on how the US became "Illuminati Central" after the Civil War ended. OK, five days later when they shot Lincoln; close enough for (shadow) government work.

[Livyjr]

I totally missed that earlier, sorry. 

Let's just see here, John Foster Dulles was a director of CSSC and his brother, who ultimately ran the CIA at the time of JFK's assassination and sat on the Warren commission, directed Operation Paperclip. 

Conclusion: The Nazis weren't defeated in 1945, they just immigrated, and NOT to Argentina. 

So what do we do about it?

Well, here you're "reading my mail", as the saying goes.

The Nazis did lose Germany and some other countries in 1945, and that is for sure, so in some senses they were "defeated", although to me, looking back from the perspective of now, I would say all they really suffered were some set-backs!

They lost Germany, but they gained access to America, and so they, like Joe Hill, never died; they just reconstituted as something else, and as far as I am concerned, they are still here, just harder to recognize, although I have to wonder when you see such notables as Prince Harry of Jolly Olde jumping some kind of gun, by getting drunk or whacked out on whatever the "PRINCE" was whacked out on in the photos I saw of him in his own Nazi gear.

SO?

Morambar, what do we do about it?

Damed if I know!

I think that's partly why we have this forum, to think on those things.

And as to spending time talking about the Illuminati, and whether they exist is entertaining, but to me, it serves no overt purpose in this particular thread, which is more current events-related, i.e., things that are happening, or might be, and even most of those we still can't do much about, but we can at least make the general public more aware!

If we start talking Illuminati Conspiracies in here, it defeats the purpose of the thread in the first place, is my thought, although in private, I do read about them, and think about them, although not overlong, as I have other more pressing things to deal with, like whether George W. Bush might nuke France before or after New Foundland, and are we ever going to hear who really did pop that Italian guy over there in Iraq, or is that all the way under the rug now, never to be heard from again?

As to conspiracies, of course they exist, and if the Illuminati really do exist, which is unprovable, and if they too are a conspiracy, which is also unprovable, then they are simply just one more, and not the only one!

I think you will find, as you go on, Morambar, that "conspiracies" in the world are as common as dirt, and they exist because they are a part of the "human condition".

One of my favorites, and perhaps Karl Rove's as well, is the "Cataline Conspiracy" in the last days, or latter days anyway, of the Roman Republic, where the pigeon-breasted Cicero was coming to the Roman Senate each day, dressed in armor, and was continually "thumping the tub" against Cataline, and some others that he wanted to destroy, by accusing them of conspiracy against the "state".

When you think on that, it reminds you of George W. Bush going after Saddam Hussein every day in the media, so that young George of America could then justify going to Iraq to take the oil which is there.

Conspiracies are as common as dirt!

What do we do about them?

Don't get run down by them in the first place is a good place to start!

[Livyjr]

And speaking about "current events" that are probably, hell, most likely are part of a "conspiracy" that we are presently unable to do much about, even though it is unfolding right before OUR eyes as we speak back and forth in here, we have as follows:

Politics - U. S. Congress

"GOP Stressing Constitution in Judge Battle"

Mon Apr 25, 1:53 AM ET

By DAVID ESPO, AP Special Correspondent

WASHINGTON - Buffeted by poor poll numbers, Senate Republicans are stressing the Constitution rather than religion or retribution against activist judges as the reason to deny Democrats the right to block votes on President Bush's court nominees.

"What I do not want to do is cross the line and say those who oppose these nominees are people who lack faith," Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., told "Fox News Sunday."

"I don't believe that."

"I don't think that's appropriate."

Graham spoke several hours before Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist told a group of social conservatives he wants no part of retaliation against sitting judges.

"When we think judicial decisions are outside mainstream American values, we will say so," he told a rally dubbed "Justice Sunday — Stopping The Filibuster Against People of Faith."

"But we must also be clear that the balance of power among all three branches requires respect — not retaliation."

"I won't go along with that," he added in implicit rejection of recent comments by House Majority Leader Tom DeLay.

Frist made no mention of religion in his four-minute taped appearance.

Instead, the Tennessee Republican, Graham and other GOP senators said repeatedly Sunday that their goal was to assure fairness for Bush's controversial nominees — a yes or no vote in the Senate.

"If these senators are not prepared to fulfill their constitutional responsibilities, then why are they here in the first place?" said Frist.

The Republicans framed their rhetoric several days after receiving the results of a private poll that showed only 37 percent support for their plan to strip Democrats of the ability to filibuster judicial appointees.

Opposed were 51 percent.

The same survey indicated only about 20 percent believe the GOP claim that Bush is the first president in history whose court appointees have been subjected to filibusters, a tactic in which opponents can prevent a vote unless supporters gain 60 votes.

The poll did contain some encouraging news for Republicans.

Even among self-described Democrats, support for granting court appointees a yes-or-no vote exceeded 70 percent, according to officials who spoke on condition of anonymity.

No showdown seems imminent, despite earlier indications from Republicans that they might try to force the issue before the end of the week.

Republicans argue they can change the Senate's filibuster procedure on a simple majority vote, and Sen. Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the chief GOP vote counter, told CBS' "Face the Nation" his party would prevail.

No Democrat disputed that Sunday.

Republicans hold 55 seats in the 100-member Senate.

So far, only two — Sens. John McCain or Arizona and Lincoln Chafee of Rhode Island — have broken ranks.

Others have expressed concern about a move to change practices in place for decades.

One Democrat, Sen. Joseph Biden of Delaware, talked on ABC's "This Week" of a possible compromise in which Democrats would "let a number" of Bush's contested appointments win confirmation while "the two most extreme not go through."

He mentioned no names.

The response from the two Senate party leaders seemed tepid at best.

Frist's spokesman declined comment, while Democratic Leader Harry Reid of Nevada said through an aide that he remains open to compromise.

Democrats confirmed more than 200 judicial appointments Bush made during his first term, but blocked 10 appeals court nominees they deemed too conservative to warrant lifetime appointments.

Once re-elected, the president resubmitted seven of the names.

Democrats have threatened to filibuster them again.

Of the seven, three were appointed to the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals.

Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., chairman of the Judiciary Committee, referred without elaboration to "a lot of negotiations to try to get three judges from Michigan" — Henry Saad, Richard Griffin and David McTeague — confirmed.

Specter was interviewed on CNN's "Late Edition."

The other four judges include William G. Myers III, named to the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals; William Pryor Jr., picked for the 11th Circuit; Janice Rogers Brown, tabbed for the Circuit Court for the District of Columbia; and Priscilla Owen, whom Bush named to the 5th Circuit.

Frist singled out Owen for praise in his remarks before the rally organized by the Family Research Council on Sunday, a possible indication that he has decided to make her the test case on the filibuster issue.

Speaking of her and the six others, Frist recalled that Reid earlier accused him of pursuing radical Republican policies with his campaign to banish judicial filibusters.

"I don't think it's radical to ask senators to vote," he said.

"I don't think it's radical to expect senators to fulfill their constitutional responsibilities."

[Livyjr]

SO!

There we have the Courts, or more properly, who is going to be sitting on the bench if and when we ever have to go to court to secure our rights, and what is going to be on the mind of the judge when, or if, these days, at least up here in the federal Northern District of New York, we are at all able to even get there, in the first place!

Which brings us to this next story from the whacky and zany world of George W. Bush:

White House - AP

"Bush Seeks Relief From Record Oil Prices"

48 minutes ago

By JENNIFER LOVEN, Associated Press Writer

CRAWFORD, Texas - President Bush is seeking relief from record-high gas prices and support for Middle East peace as he opens his Texas ranch to Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, the world's largest oil producer.

Bush said he'll make clear Monday that it's not in Saudi Arabia's interests to keep oil prices high.

"If they pinch the world economy too much, it'll affect their ability to sell crude oil in the long run," he said in a television interview last week.

The president also said he's looking for "a straight answer" on how close the Saudis are to reaching production capacity.

"I don't think they're pumping flat out," Bush said.

Bush's goal of spreading democracy across the Arab world also faces a difficult test with Saudi Arabia, a longtime ally ruled by absolute monarchy.

Traditionally Bush holds news conferences with visiting foreign leaders, but there will be none during this visit because Abdullah rarely talks with reporters.

Monday's meeting marks another step in a quickening pace of U.S. involvement in the Mideast.

Two weeks ago Bush met at the ranch with Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and said Israel should abandon plans for new construction of Jewish settlements in the Palestinian territories.

The Saudis believe the administration's strong support for Israel harms prospects for Middle East peace.

Despite the difficult matters, Robert Jordan, a former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia, said the stage is set for a much friendlier meeting Monday than three years ago when Abdullah first visited the ranch.

For one thing, the late Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, a polarizing figure, is now gone — replaced by an elected president of the Palestinians, Mahmoud Abbas.

Abbas will have his own meeting with Bush in the next few weeks.

To lay the groundwork for Monday's meeting, Vice President Dick Cheney talked with Abdullah over lunch Sunday in a Dallas hotel.

Jordan noted that Saudi officials also have played an instrumental role in persuading Syria to withdraw its troops from Lebanon.

They have been supportive of increasing oil production at crucial times.

And Abdullah has taken some initial steps toward introducing democracy to Saudi Arabia by holding elections for municipal councils, even though women's rights remain severely restricted, political parties are banned and press freedoms are limited.

Likely to be on Abdullah's mind is a Saudi proposal that would give Israel normal relations with Arab nations only in exchange for its return to its borders before it captured the West Bank, Gaza Strip and east Jerusalem in the 1967 Middle East war.

Although Arab leaders last month endorsed that approach, Jordan said Abdullah — well aware of Bush's position that the "new realties on the ground" of Jewish settlements make a full Israeli withdrawal unrealistic — is unlikely to come in "with some flat demand."

Bush, meanwhile, hopes to nudge Abdullah into giving Abbas additional financial and political support for efforts to rein in militants and build the infrastructure for a viable, stable Palestinian democracy.

The global cost of oil will be at the top of Bush's agenda, with prices at the pump now over $2.20 nationwide.

Saudi Oil Minister Ali Naimi promised last week to increase production capacity to 12.5 million barrels per day by 2009 from the current 11 million limit and, if necessary, eventually develop a capacity of 15 million barrels per day.

The kingdom now pumps about 9.5 million barrels daily.

The best-case scenario for Bush, Jordan said, would to secure a commitment from Abdullah to explore additional oil fields and invest in additional production capacity.

The United States could offer to help by providing technical expertise or helping to build storage facilities for reserves, he said.

Counter-terrorism efforts are another key topic.

Bush's White House-based homeland security adviser, Fran Townsend, is meeting with her Saudi counterparts on the sidelines.

[jeffmoskin]

If you have a chance, you might want to pick up a copy of "The Drew Pearson Diaries."  Very insightful and informing.  Nixon got on the ticket as an anti-Commie, and that decision was long before the convention.  Ikes problem was he wanted to be President, he just didn't want to BE President.  If it hadn't been for Truman we would probably have seen the '49 inauguration of DEMOCRATIC President Eisenhower (and the world might be a much better place.)  On the subject of LBJ, they had their differences, but agreed on policy, besides which, who nominated JFK for VP in '56? 

We got started in a proxy fight under Eisenhower and if he didn't know what was really going on there, well, that's true of most of his administration.  JFK just made Americas commitment real instead of verbal.  There's a story that a memo made it to JFK's desk that wasn't supposed to, listing the projected casualties for the next year.  This, combined with a visit by MLK informing the President that, at the time, most of the Vietnam casualties were black soldiers who had joined the Army as the only realistic hope of providing for thier families, and that it had better stop if he wanted their support for reelection, prompted JFK to issue  the order that we were getting out.  That was in April or May of '63, and you know the rest.

Your analysis of LBJ's view of the war is dead on I think.  So why did he stay in?  The same reason as JFK: he felt an obligation to the Vietnamese people to honor Ikes commitment.  Vietnam BROKE LBJ.  Personal defeat was one thing, but the war scuttled the Great Society, and was the beginning of the end for American liberalism for at least a generation.  Since then we've been fighting a holding action to keep as much of the New Deal as we can; SS and FDIC are about the only things left since the gold standard went bye-bye under Nixon and took minimum wage with it, and 41 got rid of FSLIC.  I brought up the '68 election to illustrate one point:  when RFK was shot he was no threat to an incumbent who refused to run, but a very large threat to the man his brother beat in '60.  The shock is not the connection between JFK, RFK, and MLK; the shock is that Wallace was probably shot for the same reason: to insure Nixons victory in '68.  Of course, another Kennedy might have beaten him in '72, but....

I see Livyjr IS familiar with Greg Palast.  Wondered if I might have been preaching to the choir.

WOW!

A very interesting post.

I never thought of WHY Wallace got shot. He still won the "deep" south, which was only 46 EVs, and would NOT have made the difference. Nixon beat HHH because the latter NEVER stood up to the folly of the war. He was too much of a party loyalists to go against LBJ. I only wish that he had; he would have made a GREAT pres.

Your comment about "black soldiers who had joined the Army as the only realistic hope of providing for thier families" is so sad because it is STILL true. Only now, the cannon fodder category has expanded to include poor people of all colors. I guess you could say the Army has become and "equal opportunity destroyer."

I am convinced that if RFK had not been killed he would certainly have been elected; that if elected he would have ended the war; that he would have joined with MLK to make America "live up to its creed."

The destructive power of the gun, indeed.

[anderson_perry]

WOW!

A very interesting post.

I never thought of WHY Wallace got shot. He still won the "deep" south, which was only 46 EVs, and would NOT have made the difference. Nixon beat HHH because the latter NEVER stood up to the folly of the war. He was too much of a party loyalists to go against LBJ. I only wish that he had; he would have made a GREAT pres.

Your comment about "black soldiers who had joined the Army as the only realistic hope of providing for thier families" is so sad because it is STILL true. Only now, the cannon fodder category has expanded to include poor people of all colors. I guess you could say the Army has become and "equal opportunity destroyer."

I am convinced that if RFK had not been killed he would certainly have been elected; that if elected he would have ended the war; that he would have joined with MLK to make America "live up to its creed."

The destructive power of the gun, indeed.

i am annoyed today.

i don't know why, i just am

i feel that i've been dragged over the coals and judged totally unfairly and all based on what i may have said either here or elsewhere

it's most annoying, i am greatly annoyed

how about this, how about i not say a damned thing anymore

would that suite your fancy

thanks

- perry

[Livyjr]

If you have a chance, you might want to pick up a copy of "The Drew Pearson Diaries." 

Very insightful and informing. 

Nixon got on the ticket as an anti-Commie, and that decision was long before the convention. 

We got started in a proxy fight under Eisenhower and if he didn't know what was really going on there, well, that's true of most of his administration. 

JFK just made Americas commitment real instead of verbal. 

And here I have to make a point that this thread is called the "Livyjr Files" for this reason, that I, personally, and we, meaning myself, jeffmoskin and Mr. A.B. especially were "as there" for this stuff that was going on since WWII as Drew Pearson, or anyone else, and so, while we are all voracious readers, or digesters of information, and would read Drew Pearson, in reality, this thread is OUR Diary, that of the common man, and woman in America who was also there, but didn't get to write any books about it, until now!

When I started this thread in Volume I, I made that point right off, that this was "citizen-written history" in here, as seen through the eyes of the common person!

As for me, I was in Viet Nam!

I was physically there, actually there, seeing things, doing things, and talking to people who were from there, about us!

SO!

I have my own knowledge of Viet Nam, and in truth, that war started when the U.S. gave the Vietnamese back to the French at the end of WWII, as though the Vietnamese were nothing more than nothing at all!

That ill-fated decision in the 1940's cost a lot of American lives afterwards, and for what?

And most certainly, Ike knew what was going on in Viet Nam!

You play Eisenhower for a fool, and he was not!

In fact, nobody back then, at least at his level, did not have their attention riveted on to what was playing out in Dien Bien Phu between Giap and the French!

If you read Bernard Fall's "Hell in a very small place", you will see how much Ike knew of Viet Nam back then, as did all Americans who were alive back then!

I certainly retain vivid memories of Dien Bien Phu!

The same with "anti-communism" and Millhouse "Tricky Dick" Nixxon!

In those days, "anti-Communism" was all the rage, and I certainly remember as a child being exposed to all of this "anti-Communist" propaganda in school, in the form of films.

And politicians like Millhouse "Tricky Dick" hitched their wagon to that, the way the Frist's of today are hitching theirs to religion!

It's the "gig" of the moment!

And so, that's how I see things anyway!

[Livyjr]

i am annoyed today.

i don't know why, i just am

i feel that i've been dragged over the coals and judged totally unfairly and all based on what i may have said either here or elsewhere

it's most annoying, i am greatly annoyed

how about this, how about i not say a damned thing anymore

would that suite your fancy

thanks

- perry

Well, perry, as for me, I generally practice tolerance, and I'm not into telling people to either speak, or shut up, and so, it likely is not me that you want to be upset with.

Not having you upset with me, perry, would suit my own fancy about as well as anything that I can think of, thank you very much!

SO!

There's my point of view!

This post has been edited by Livyjr: Apr 25 2005, 03:17 PM

[jeffmoskin]

i am annoyed today.

i don't know why, i just am

i feel that i've been dragged over the coals and judged totally unfairly and all based on what i may have said either here or elsewhere

it's most annoying, i am greatly annoyed

how about this, how about i not say a damned thing anymore

would that suite your fancy

thanks

- perry

If I was a part of said coal dragging, I humbly apologize. I for one like reading your posts, perry.

[Livyjr]

And here I have to make a point that this thread is called the "Livyjr Files" for this reason, that I, personally, and we, meaning myself, jeffmoskin and Mr. A.B. especially were "as there" for this stuff that was going on since WWII as Drew Pearson, or anyone else, and so, while we are all voracious readers, or digesters of information, and would read Drew Pearson, in reality, this thread is OUR Diary, that of the common man, and woman in America who was also there, but didn't get to write any books about it, until now!

When I started this thread in Volume I, I made that point right off, that this was "citizen-written history" in here, as seen through the eyes of the common person!

As for me, I was in Viet Nam!

I was physically there, actually there, seeing things, doing things, and talking to people who were from there, about us!

SO!

FROM THE BEGINNING:

Good day all!

My name if Livyjr, and I am a recent arrival here from the former John Kerry forum, which I thought revolutionized communications between ordinary citizens in America, in ways unseen or likely unheard of since the Forum of Rome, back in the days of my namesake, Titus Livius, or plain Livy, some two thousand years in the Republic of Rome, and then in the ensuing Empire under Augustus, son of Julius Caesar.

Why Livy?

Well, for the context, mainly.

And who was Livy?

While a short biography of Livy follows, the fact is that Livy was around at the end of the Roman Republic, the time when Julius Caesar was killed, or assassinated, depending on your point of view, and Livy talked about or chronicled that time for us in the future to read about, and I am of a similar bent, only in here, talking about these days of our Republic of America, rather than the Forum of Rome.

What is history?

History is what we are doing in here right now, and what we are doing each and every minute of our collective days.

That is history!

We are history!

In Livy's day, 59 BC to 17 AD, simple people in Rome and Italy, for that matter, did not get to write history, and even come into the record by name.

The lives of the common man and woman of that era are largely lost to us two thousand years later in 2004.

Not so with us today, however, at least as long as these computer forums continue to exist, and a record continues to be made of the days of our passing, here in our America.

On the John Kerry Forum, we had many people dropping by from European countries, and probably many other places in the world as well, to read about our daily lives, because the world is a very large place, and it is very difficult for any of us to know much of what is happening around us just ten miles down the road, anymore, let alone across the great nation of America, which is over 3,000 miles from coast to coast, or across the world, for that matter.

When peoples of other nations can hear our own thoughts directly, without any filters imposed, then they learn about us as people, rather than a perceived ideology, and they see that in many ways, we are just like them.

This is good, because it serves to promote peace and harmony throughout the world in ways that our established governments seem totally unable to do.

Never before have we been able to have such a speedy dialogue across such great distances.

In 1969, for example, I was in Viet Nam, as a soldier, and then, it took over a week for any news from home to reach me, so that what I was reading was already old news!

If someone had been sick, or had died, it was long since over by the time that I read about it over there.

Now, 30 years later, I am communicating almost instantaneously with people across America and around the world.

To an older American like me, who was born into an era in America where there still were no telephones and televisions in many or most rural American homes, this instant internet communications is like a miracle!

So then the question is how to use the miracle and keep it as such!

Hence this thread!

On the John Kerry Forum, this same thread format had over ten thousand visitors, and so it survived the test of time over there, before the elections.

Will it do so here, now that the elections are over, and peoples' minds have gone on to new places?

Who knows?

Just have to wait and see.

But here is where I want to start anyway, with this initial posting, right after the history of Livy, of an article concerning George W. Bush, and what he is now promising us, the American people, for the next four years!

Will any of it happen?

Will any of us ever see one word of what he says come true?

Who knows?

We'll just have to keep coming back to our daily lives here in America day after day to find out, because while history is what we are doing right now in America, that only hints at what is to come; it does not tell us for certain what will transpire.

Only the passage to time can do that, tell us where we have been!

[jeffmoskin]

Tim Russer's program starts in a few minutes. I try to watch that when I can, so I have just a moment now for one comment on the International Criminal Court.

If we had joined it, where would all of the fine upstanding officers who were in any way connected with Abu Ghraib be now?

Cleared of any responsibility just like this latest military court cleared them?

Sure. It was all the fault of the enlisted men.

I watched a program called Dr. Phil for a while last year. It was too soap opera like for me so I stopped watching it. However he used one statement many times that I like and agree with which is ---

" People that have nothing to hide, hide nothing. "

Do you agree with that, Mr. President?

A.B.

from MSNBC a few days ago:

Spain convicts Argentine in 'dirty war' crimes
Former naval officer had renounced earlier claims
The Associated Press
Updated: 8:33 a.m. ET April 19, 2005

MADRID, Spain - A Spanish court Tuesday found a former Argentine naval officer guilty of atrocities during his country’s “dirty war,” and sentenced him to 640 years in jail.


The conviction of Adolfo Scilingo, 58, came in Spain’s first trial of a person accused of committing human rights abuses in another country...


If Bush the lesser had not ERASED Clinton's signature from the Exec order joining the ICC, many US citizens might have been tried and convicted in absentia.

Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz for example.

And maybe Bush.

[jeffmoskin]

but isn't it interesting that the U.S. government has hundreds of billions of dollars to spend trying to hit one bullet with another.... despite the ever shrinking american dollar

I presume you refer to the "anti-balistic missile" program, or ABM for short. Actually, the US funded the Israelis to develop the "ARROW" ABM.

And it works! Read all about it.

http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/arrow_israel.html