Marines Sound Off About The Iraq War Options

[Marine]

Many of the stories are provided with an e-mail address of the Marine or the writer of the story, feel welcome to write them and express your displeasure.

Be sure to explain very carefully that it is much more important to hate George Bush than it is to show support the United States so they will understand your motives. Otherwise they might just think you to just be an anti-American shrill.

[heart]

Be sure to explain very carefully that it is much more important to hate George Bush than it is to show support the United States so they will understand your motives.  Otherwise they might just think you to just be an anti-American shrill.

Not much I can add to that!

[piccadilly]

Let's see...

Memorial Day remembered in Iraq
Submitted by: 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing
Story Identification #: 2005530141030
Story by Cpl. C. Alex Herron
herronca@acemnf-wiraq.usmc.mil*

First sergeant remembered on Memorial Day in Iraq
Submitted by: 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing
Story by: Computed Name: Cpl. C. Alex Herron
Story Identification #: 200553171820

Cobras strike in support of border fight
Submitted by: 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing
Story Identification #: 2005530142150
Story by Cpl. Rocco DeFilippis
defilippisrc@acemnf-wiraq.usmc.mil

Somerton native sets standard for Marines in Iraq
Submitted by: 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing
Story Identification #: 2005630234
Story by Cpl. Rocco DeFilippis

Houston native drives, strives for success
Submitted by: 2nd Force Service Support Group
Story by: Computed Name: Cpl. C. J. Yard
Story Identification #: 200567134149
For more information about the Marines or news reported in this story, contact by e-mail cssemnfpao@cssemnf-wiraq.usmc.mil.


"Many" is actually 5 found in the flood of second hand account stories, written by PA reporters. I don't blame the PA reporters, what they were ordered to report about has as much factual value as if I were to tell you about my cats.

If any Marines in Iraq have any personal stories to report about, they can sign up on CGCS. I have several sponsored accounts already paid for, open and waiting.

Second, I've been wanting to ask you Marine, wouldn't your time be better spent if you posted these stories on neocon and Repub boards to remind them THEY sent the troops in Iraq, and that there are US troops in stinking Iraq who don't want to be there and think they shouldn't be there in the first place ?

You see, the problem is you only post stories of those who WANT TO BE IN IRAQ and we can't do much for them because they already got what they want.

Be sure to explain very carefully that it is much more important to hate George Bush than it is to show support the United States so they will understand your motives. 

????
If anybody does what you suggest, those poor Marines will end up as confused as I am right now. The best is to keep the lunatic Chimp out of this.

Otherwise they might just think you to just be an anti-American shrill.

Yeah, that's a bugger, ain't it, bet they get bored real fast. But can it really get you bored faster than a flood of US Marine's Public Affairs reports some supremacist shrill keeps posting on CGCS ?

[Marine]

Many of the stories are provided with an e-mail address of the Marine or the writer of the story, feel welcome to write them and express your displeasure. 

Let's see...

Memorial Day remembered in Iraq
Submitted by: 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing
Story Identification #: 2005530141030
Story by Cpl. C. Alex Herron
herronca@acemnf-wiraq.usmc.mil*

First sergeant remembered on Memorial Day in Iraq
Submitted by: 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing
Story by: Computed Name: Cpl. C. Alex Herron
Story Identification #: 200553171820

Cobras strike in support of border fight
Submitted by: 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing
Story Identification #: 2005530142150
Story by Cpl. Rocco DeFilippis
defilippisrc@acemnf-wiraq.usmc.mil

Somerton native sets standard for Marines in Iraq
Submitted by: 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing
Story Identification #: 2005630234
Story by Cpl. Rocco DeFilippis

Houston native drives, strives for success
Submitted by: 2nd Force Service Support Group
Story by: Computed Name: Cpl. C. J. Yard
Story Identification #: 200567134149
For more information about the Marines or news reported in this story, contact by e-mail cssemnfpao@cssemnf-wiraq.usmc.mil.
"Many" is actually 5 found in the flood of second hand account stories, written by PA reporters. I don't blame the PA reporters, what they were ordered to report about has as much factual value as if I were to tell you about my cats.

If any Marines in Iraq have any personal stories to report about, they can sign up on CGCS. I have several sponsored accounts already paid for, open and waiting.

Second, I've been wanting to ask you Marine, wouldn't your time be better spent if you posted these stories on neocon and Repub boards to remind them THEY sent the troops in Iraq, and that there are US troops in stinking Iraq who don't want to be there and think they shouldn't be there in the first place ?

You see, the problem is you only post stories of those who WANT TO BE IN IRAQ and we can't do much for them because they already got what they want.

????
If anybody does what you suggest, those poor Marines will end up as confused as I am right now. The best is to keep the lunatic Chimp out of this.

Yeah, that's a bugger, ain't it, bet they get bored real fast. But can it really get you bored faster than a flood of US Marine's Public Affairs reports some supremacist shrill keeps posting on CGCS ?

No picadilly , my time is well spent here. There are a bunch of folks on this board who have bought in to the proposition that fighting terrorism is supporting George Bush. Hating George Bush should not over ride the security of the United States.

It used to be fashionable to be a war protestor, not since some people came here and crashed airplanes into buildings. One of these days the anti-war people will realize things have changed, they are out of style, and last year's dress isn't this year's fashion.

This post has been edited by Acebass: Jun 16 2005, 08:26 AM

[Marine]

U.S. Marine Corps
Sgt. Chad W. Small and
Cpl. Dmitry Petrenko

On the Road to Recovery: Noncommissioned Officers Lead Supply Convoys in Iraq

By U.S. Marine Corps Staff Sgt. Jim Goodwin
1st Force Service Support Group

CAMP FALLUJAH, Iraq, Dec. 20, 2004 — Marine Sgt. Chad W. Small just missed his three-year-old daughter's birthday. He's missed a few special days, not to mention the holidays, with his wife, Erin, and daughter, Faith, back in southern California.

"Every time I would come home from work, I would take my daughter swimming," said Small, reflecting on his last days at Marine Corps Base Camp Pendleton, Calif. "I understand she's doing pretty good in the pool now."

It's been a while since Small took his daughter swimming. In fact, the last time he saw his family was when he kissed them goodbye and headed to Iraq, where he's been for nearly four months along with the rest of his unit, Combat Service Support Company 115.

The 22-year-old Phoenix, Ariz., native leads daily military supply convoys to Marine and Iraqi military posts near Fallujah. He is one of four convoy commanders for the company, a role traditionally filled by a more senior Marine, such as a staff noncommissioned officer, or a junior officer.

Today, Small is riding in a Humvee mounted with a machine gun, leading a convoy of vehicles carrying supplies, such as food and water, to Marines who have spent the past month ridding Fallujah of insurgents.

"The more insurgents they kill, the more weapons they find, decreases the threat against my Marines and every Marine driving a truck out here," said Small.

It's a cloudy, cold day. Small sips coffee from a tin mug in the passenger side of his Humvee. The sun is still rising as his Humvee pulls into a gravel lot across from the base chow hall, followed by the rest of the convoy's vehicles, 7-ton and flatbed trucks.

As a convoy commander, his mission is to ensure the supplies are delivered to their destinations on time.

As a non-commissioned officer, he is responsible for both the success of the mission and the safe return of the Marines under him.

Due to the frequent requests for supplies to Marine and Iraqi forces operating in Fallujah, the unit relies on its small-unit leaders — noncommissioned officers like Small — to take charge of the shorter, more local convoys.

"We could not function at the operational tempo we are at without them. There's just no way," said 1st Lt. Alexandria S. Plucinski, a platoon and convoy commander for the unit.

The responsibility of convoy commanders is great, according to Plucinski.

"You have to know what gear to bring, your convoy route, where to offload, and what your battle space is," said the 27-year-old Chicago native.

Prior to departing the base, Small allows his Marines to stop and eat breakfast.

"It's the most important meal of the day," he said, standing outside his Humvee in the cold. He watches the vehicles and supplies while his Marines go inside the heated chowhall to eat.

Once on the road, they stop only to drop off their loads - pallets of Meals, Ready to Eat, thousands of bottles of water, 10,000 gallons of additional water, and fuel.

CSSC-115, a subordinate unit of Combat Service Support Battalion 1, provides supplies, such as food and ammunition, even toothpaste to cigarettes, and everything in between, to Marine units operating in and around Fallujah. Small, along with the rest of the Marines in his platoon, worked 16-19 hour days during the first several weeks of combat, making three to four daily runs to Marine bases around the city.

Even though combat operations are slowly dying down in the combat-ridden "City of Mosques," Small knows contact with the enemy is always a possibility.

Perhaps the most infamous of these threats are IEDs, or improvised explosive devices, roadside bombs set up by terrorists to destroy and disrupt convoys.

"It's always in the back of my mind," said Small, tucking a pinch of cherry-flavored tobacco under his bottom lip. "Everyone knows the risks, but without us, the forward units wouldn't have supplies.

Since arriving in Iraq in August, CSSC-115 has suffered one IED attack. Two Marines were injured and one truck damaged during the logistical convoy.

"I was thanking God that those Marines came out of there alive," said Small, who converted to Catholicism just six months ago. "I feel it's a strong religion. Catholics confess their sins, which makes you strong with God, which makes you think about your actions more thoroughly."

In the left breast pocket of his digital pattern camouflage uniform, Small keeps a small religious medallion embossed with the face of the Pope. "It's for good luck. I always do prayers before convoys," said Small. He also has a set of wooden rosary beads which he had blessed by a Roman Catholic Cardinal during a port stop last year on ship to Rome.

"Faith in Gods helps, especially when you've had a bad day," he said.

As his Marines begin to "mount up" in their vehicles, Small walks around to each vehicle in line to make sure everyone is ready to go. Placing his Kevlar helmet on his head, he gives the thumbs up to the truck driver behind him, jumps into his Humvee, and gives the word for the convoy to depart.

Armed with an array of heavy-caliber machine guns and rifles, the Marines take no chances on Iraq's open roads. A convoy commander must know when to fend off potential threats - whether to employ their weapons to take out the enemy, and when to use flares to deter civilians driving too fast and close to the convoy.

Such decisions lie in the hands of the convoy commander.

"They have to know when to shoot," said Plucinski. "We're not there to make the decisions for them."

After providing fuel and water to a nearby Iraqi military training camp, Small's convoy makes a short trek to Camp Baharia, the headquarters base for one of the Marine infantry units that has sustained a number of casualties during heaving fighting in Fallujah.

Small watches closely as his assistant convoy commander, Cpl. Dmitry Petrenko, directs one of the convoy's truck drivers where to place a 20-foot metal container filled with bottled water.

Petrenko is a 20-year-old reserve Marine from Queens, N.Y. A truck driver and vehicle commander during last year's push to Baghdad, Petrenko volunteered to return to Iraq.

"I think I would have had more regrets if I stayed home," said Petrenko, who migrated with his parents from Ukraine to the United States 10 years ago.

As Petrenko guides the truck into the muddy, open field next to dozens of other supply containers, Small nods in approval, only assisting when called upon. "I expect them to be able to do my job," said Small of his subordinates.

He emphasizes the importance of accountability to the Marines under his charge: "Leaving someone behind out here is a mistake you can't afford."

Graduating from Moon Valley High School in Glendale, Ariz., Small enlisted in the Marine Corps four years ago. He says he's wanted to be a Marine since the ninth grade, when he first saw the Marine recruiter in dress blues at his school. He wanted to be a "real warrior," like the recruiter. His participation in his school's Naval Junior Recruit Officer Training Corps program also helped spur his interest in military life, he said.


U.S. Marine Corps Sgt. Chad W. Small is a 22-year-old Marine currently deployed in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom. The Phoenix, Ariz., native leads daily military supply convoys to Marine and Iraqi military posts near Fallujah. Small is one of four convoy commanders for Combat Service Support Company 115, a role traditionally filled by a more senior Marine. U.S. Marine Corps photo by Staff Sgt. Jim Goodwin



U.S. Marine Corps Cpl. Dmitry Petrenko, an assistant convoy commander and military truck driver, gives an early morning brief to Marines of Combat Service Support Company 115 prior to heading out on a supply convoy to various Marine and Iraq military posts near Fallujah, Iraq, Dec. 17, 2004. Petrenko is a 20-year-old reserve Marine from Queens, N.Y. A truck driver and vehicle commander during last year's push to Baghdad, Petrenko volunteered to return to Iraq with the Camp Pendleton, Calif.-based CSSC-115. U.S. Marine Corps photo by Staff Sgt. Jim Goodwin



As a newly promoted lance corporal several years ago, Small was placed in charge of about 20 Marines within the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit, based out of Camp Lejeune, N.C. He's been placed in leadership positions ever since, he said.

"When I'm not running my own show, I feel kind of ridiculous," he said.

He prides himself on his "can do" attitude, and expects nothing less of his Marines.

"One thing I can't stand is when someone tells me, 'It can't be done,'" said Small. "I'll find a way to get it done."

After dropping off the water, Small, Petrenko and several other Marine truck drivers within the convoy spend nearly two hours waiting for another truck to finish replenishing various water points around the camp.

It takes only a few minutes before the Marines are joking around with one another, quoting lines from favorite comedies, talking about historical events and who has yet to purchase a copy of "Halo 2," a popular video game the Marines play together in their off-time.

Half a world apart from loved ones, many of the Marines who work for Small are also his friends - relationships built over the past few months from spending hours on, and off, the road together.

At Camp Fallujah, Marines work, eat, and live together. It's not uncommon for three to four Marines to share a single trailer, similar to roommates in a college dorm room.

"The only personal time you have is when you're taking a shower, or lying in bed at night thinking about home," said Small.

On the road, monotony can set in, leading to complacency. A common credo for Marines in Iraq is "Complacency Kills," a message posted on various wooden signs throughout the base.

Small drills this into his Marines, not just by telling them, but by conditioning them to stay alert and keep aware of their surroundings at all times.

Two truck drivers on this particular convoy, Lance Cpl. Cory S. Henderson, a 19-year-old native of San Bernardino, Calif., and Lance Cpl. Ruston E. Franklin, a 22-year-old Tennessean from Nashville, listen to music CDs in a portable DVD player mounted to his truck's dashboard between supply drop-off points.

"Music's my motivation," said Henderson, a tall Marine who wants to break into the heavy metal music industry when he gets out of the Marine Corps. "But you have to stay alert out here."

"The roads can get kind of scary," chimes in Franklin, in a deep voice as he drives with the rest of the convoy past an Iraqi town, stray dogs wandering around the roadsides. "It's just like the signs say, 'complacency kills.' You just have to keep your eyes open."

Still immersed in conversation about movies and video games, the remaining supply truck rejoins the rest of the convoy at the staging area at Camp Baharia.

One more stop separates Small's convoy from a "mission complete" status. They must return to the Iraqi military post and link up with a truck left there to finish refueling the base's large fuel tanks.

Helmets on their heads, the Marines clamber inside their vehicles, some retaking their positions behind the belt-fed machine guns atop the vehicles. Like a set of railroad cars tailing behind a steam engine train, the convoy cuts through a dirt road leading off the base, and out onto the highway to their destination.

Upon their arrival, Iraqi national guardsmen carrying AK-47s halt the line of vehicles at the post's front gate. Small signs a clipboard, and the convoy continues its journey.

When time permits, the Marines interact with the Iraqis, at least as much as the language barrier will allow.

On a different convoy, the Marines spent several minutes talking with Iraqi soldiers at another training compound not far from Fallujah.

Petrenko gave a copy of Maxim Magazine to one of the soldiers, who held it up to show the other Iraqis.

"They're pissed off because of what's been done to their country," said Small, matter-of-factly. "But they want us here. They appreciate what we're doing."

Last month, CSSC-115 was tasked with transporting insurgent detainees from Fallujah to other holding areas in addition to transporting supplies to Marine units.

While Small is optimistic about the progress made in Fallujah, he hears about the pockets of resistance Marines are still fighting in the war-torn city.

"Overall, the threat has decreased, but they can still get more weapons, and more (fighters)," he said. "If they still have pockets of resistance, they can still set up IEDs."

By late afternoon, the convoy has returned to Camp Fallujah. After stopping to refuel the vehicles for tomorrow's convoy, the Marines pull into the company's large, gravel lot to park their vehicles.

The machine guns are dismounted, cleaned, and returned to the unit's armory, the Marines are debriefed and dismissed. Small heads to the little, wooden shack, which serves as the company's operations center, where convoys are planned and monitored.

Carrying his M16 rifle, helmet, armored vest and his coffee mug, and not quite as talkative as he was earlier in the day, Small looks out into the open lot, which was hit by a rocket when the unit first arrived to Iraq.

Standing there, he may have been thinking about the next day's convoy, or perhaps the cruise he and his wife will take as a vacation when he comes home. Or perhaps he was simply thinking about another mission completed, another day he and his Marines can cross off their calendars as time served in Iraq.

"Well, I have to start getting ready for the class on Sunday," he said, responding to a question.

On Sundays, Small teaches a motor vehicle operator's class on one of the unit's large convoy trucks - something he does to help keep his unit trained for the road.

"I just try to stay as busy as possible out here," he said, shrugging. "Stay focused on the job and the mission. That's it. Busy makes the time go by."

[Marine]

03/01/05 - U.S. Marine Corps Sgt. Alberto Sanchez Jr. entertains El Salvadorian children with a pinata filled with candy in the town of El Tortuguero on March 1, 2005. DoD photo by Staff Sgt. Reynaldo Ramon, U.S. Air Force.

[piccadilly]

No picadilly , my time is well spent here.  There are a bunch of folks on this board who have bought in to the proposition that fighting terrorism is supporting George Bush.  Hating George Bush should not over ride the security of the United States.

Fighting terrorism, in Iraq ? We deliberately invaded Iraq, unprovoked, so how can you possibly expect no resistance ?

And how exactly do you expect these sterilized PA reports to convince these folks that our troops are IN FACT fighting terrorism and not doing some special, hazardous training camp in the mideast ?

When I read those reports you post, I read a lot about glorified military life, but nothing about War. Read the reports Marine, where is the war in those reports ? They even picture gunfights as some kind of accident !

[Marine]

Fighting terrorism, in Iraq ? We deliberately invaded Iraq, unprovoked, so how can you possibly expect no resistance ?

And how exactly do you expect these sterilized PA reports to convince these folks that our troops are IN FACT fighting terrorism and not doing some special, hazardous training camp in the mideast ?

When I read those reports you post, I read a lot about glorified military life, but nothing about War. Read the reports Marine, where is the war in those reports ? They even picture gunfights as some kind of accident !

Well picadilly, gunfights usually are some kind of accident. If you can think of ultimate chaos, you can think of war.

Even when you are looking for the enemy he isn't going to be where you want him to be; if someone tells you where he is at, he will have moved before you can get there; and when you least suspect it is when something will happen.

Yeah, we are fighting terrorism in Iraq, if we weren't Iran and Syria wouldn't be helping Jihadist to get there. Have you looked at who the suicide bombers are? They're not Iraqis.

This post has been edited by Acebass: Jun 16 2005, 01:12 PM

[amy]

Well picadilly, gunfights usually are some kind of accident.  If you can think of ultimate chaos, you can think of war.

Even when you are looking for the enemy he isn't going to be where you want him to be; if someone tells you where he is at, he will have moved before you can get there; and when you least suspect it is when something will happen.

Yeah, we are fighting terrorism in Iraq, if we weren't Iran and Syria wouldn't be helping Jihadist to get there.  Have you looked at who the suicide bombers are?  They're not Iraqis.

But there were no terrorists in Iraq before the war, so it's good that there are now? Oh, I get it-Bush wants to "contain the terrorists" as best as possible in one area, drawing them to Iraq so the fight can be fought in Iraq rather than in the U.S. You know, keep the terrorist orgs busy in Iraq so they don't have much time to plan another attack on U.S. soil. I wonder if the Iraqi people gave Bush permission to draw terrorists to their soil? My guess would be, no they did not.

This post has been edited by Acebass: Jun 16 2005, 01:14 PM

[Marine]

But there were no terrorists in Iraq before the war, so it's good that there are now? Oh, I get it-Bush wants to "contain the terrorists" as best as possible in one area, drawing them to Iraq so the fight can be fought in Iraq rather than in the U.S. You know, keep the terrorist orgs busy in Iraq so they don't have much time to plan another attack on  U.S. soil. I wonder if the Iraqi people gave Bush permission to draw terrorists to their soil? My guess would be, no they did not.

Maybe then we should hand the keys back to Saddam would be a your choice then? I don't see that as very good thinking.

I think you keep forgeting the reason we invaded Iraq was because we feared they had WMD which would be made available to terrorist, remember that little detail? I think the intelligence community screwed that up.

So what do we do now, throw our hands up and say "so-long you're on your own now, we didn't find the WMD, sorry, we screwed up, you do what ever you want with your country". Now, how responsible would that be?

Iran and Syria allow foreign fighters into Iraq because they know as soon as we are not busy in Iraq, they are next on the agenda.

[heart]

"Many" is actually 5 found in the flood of second hand account stories, written by PA reporters. I don't blame the PA reporters, what they were ordered to report about has as much factual value as if I were to tell you about my cats.

If any Marines in Iraq have any personal stories to report about, they can sign up on CGCS. I have several sponsored accounts already paid for, open and waiting.

Second, I've been wanting to ask you Marine, wouldn't your time be better spent if you posted these stories on neocon and Repub boards to remind them THEY sent the troops in Iraq, and that there are US troops in stinking Iraq who don't want to be there and think they shouldn't be there in the first place ?

You see, the problem is you only post stories of those who WANT TO BE IN IRAQ and we can't do much for them because they already got what they want.

????
If anybody does what you suggest, those poor Marines will end up as confused as I am right now. The best is to keep the lunatic Chimp out of this.

Yeah, that's a bugger, ain't it, bet they get bored real fast. But can it really get you bored faster than a flood of US Marine's Public Affairs reports some supremacist shrill keeps posting on CGCS ?

If you like I can provide those "first hand accounts from letters, posts, and other supporters that do NOT come from any PR site, but would that change your mind? Absolutely not!

You are saying that these people should sign up here Duck? Well...I doubt they would be interested in hearing all of this crap after they served their country and were happy to do so. We are not even particularly important enough for people to "convince" since so many here seem to disregard the mulititude of similar reports from Iraq. Scraping the bottom to find every possible anti-military drudge is no more, nor less, that PR for those against the war.

Your suggestion that someone's time would be better spent posting to Republican websites about this is problematic. You see, DEMOCRATS are supporting our troops and their desire to accomplish their mission, their belief in their mission and the good they are doing in the world. It is not a REPUBLICAN issue no matter how much you might want it to be. I do not think that Marine or myself should have to go stand with the Republicans, or leave the title of "progressives, moderates, and democrats" to those who are against the war or who will not, or do not want to listen, to any possible good coming out of our troops service in Iraq. That is just as much McCarthyism as when Republicans will not allow anyone to challenge the job in Iraq.

Furthermore, no one said that work had to please you, or anyone who posts in this forum did they? Some people feel the need to do the good work as they see it, irrrespective of whether or not it is appreciated by others...it's a dharma type thing.

There are many people who read this forum, and others who read this part of the forum, but do not post here. While I'm sure it would be in the interests of some highly partisan anti-war activist to hear only one side of the story (the bad side), other people feel differently...other people would like to hear both sides and that balanced view is sorely missing here. I for one, do not want to present a picture to the world that DEMOCRATS are all against the war, and do not have any appriciation for the troops and their work. I am sure that many would agree, including many on this forum.

Those who want to be in Iraq deserve to have us hear their story too. Those who want to be in Iraq make up the largest segment of the soldiers there (in as much as anyone wants to be away from home and in a war zone). There have been many wars, and many interventions, and soldiers do not pick which war they serve in, nor who their commander in chief is do they? When a Democrat sends them to a battle (like say Kosovo) I saw Democrats backing our military and Republicans carping about "wag the dog", so the tables can turn at any time, and it's important to remember that we need to represent our soldiers with just as much fairness now, as we did then, and as we would in the future. I'm sure there was some section of those who served in Kosovo that did not believe in their mission, and were unhappy to go, but in fairness to our military, they went anyway and did their jobs...the least we could do is support them as equally, across time, as they have the US.

The truth about the "letters to the soldiers" is that they only hear from Republicans these days...and this alone is more alarming to me Picadilly than any other factor at hand. This war will end. These soldiers will come home. We always talk about the Republicans capturing all three branches of government....but what defends and protects those branches? The law...some what yes...but the military does too, and we are slowly losing all of the military personnel to the Republicans (particularly since they get out of the military and go into front line emergency work, like police, fire and government). There may come a day Duck, when that military will have to choose whether or not to turn their guns on us. If that day comes, it would be much better if they were NOT all on the other side!

Sure we can discuss the war, and sure we can talk about the pros and cons of Iraq...but how does it profit any of us to hear only the bad news (sifted just as carefully for the bad side as the you claim Marine sifts for the good side) or to hear only the news that reinforces our own pre-established beliefs. Overall, how does it profit us, in the long run, to listen ONLY to those stories from Iraq that speak to the worst, and to never respect and honor our troops for their real accomplishments?

Oh, and for eveyone's information....there are not many more than 5 people who post in this forum either, so if 5 is not representative, than WE are not either!

This post has been edited by heart: Jun 16 2005, 02:59 PM

[amy]

Maybe then we should hand the keys back to Saddam would be a your choice then?  I don't see that as very good thinking.

I think you keep forgeting the reason we invaded Iraq was because we feared they had WMD which would be made available to terrorist, remember that little detail?  I think the intelligence community screwed that up.

So what do we do now, throw our hands up and say "so-long you're on your own now, we didn't find the WMD, sorry, we screwed up, you do what ever you want with your country".  Now, how responsible would that be?

Iran and Syria allow foreign fighters into Iraq because they know as soon as we are not busy in Iraq, they are next on the agenda.

The intelligence community apparently very badly screwed up the info they gave to the White House. But my point has always been, Marine,that I do not believe the White house was willing to really consider opposing evidence (or lack of evidence) about WMD. I realize that you are saying that Bush did not want to take the chance that the intelligence was accurate; that the stakes were too high too ignore if the intelligence was correct. I understand that level of concern.BUT Marine, think about this. If 9/11 had not occurred would Bush have invaded Iraq? Apparently intelligence indicated that Saddam had WMD and the means for delivering them to our doorstep, whether 9/11 happened or not.We knew the terrorists were not from Iraq, we knew that there were no Al queda training camps in Iraq. So I'm supposed to believe that since terrorists had the audacity to fly planes into the WTC, Saddam was thinking that it was time for him to jump on the "we hate America" bandwagon and send missiles to our shores or start
funding terrorist activities against the U.S.? Post 9/11 Saddam is an immediate problem but not an imminent threat pre 9/11? 9/11 was an excuse for invading Iraq and I believe the invasion has a lot more to do with oil and permanent U.S.military bases in Iraq. And remember Marine inspectors would have been able to determine the threat level of the supposed WMD in Iraq. Allowing inspectors to continue on would have saved thousands of lives and billions of American dollars.

[amy]

[quote=heart,Jun 16 2005, 04:53 PM]
[/quote]

Those who want to be in Iraq make up the largest segment of the soldiers there (in as much as anyone wants to be away from home and in a war zone). The truth about the "letters to the soldiers" is that they only hear from Republicans these days...and this alone is more alarming to me Picadilly than any other factor at hand. We always talk about the Republicans capturing all three branches of government....but what defends and protects those branches? The law...some what yes...but the military does too, and we are slowly losing all of the military personnel to the Republicans. There may come a day Duck, when that military will have to choose whether or not to turn their guns on us. If that day comes, it would be much better if they were NOT all on the other side!

[/quote]

Just curious Heart, how do you know that the largest segment of the soldiers in Iraq want to be there?

And I'm wondering what you mean when you say that there may come a day when our military, the majority of whom are republicans, will have to choose whether or not to turn their guns on us? What are you talking about!

[real_democrat]

Your suggestion that someone's time would be better spent posting to Republican websites about this is problematic.  You see, DEMOCRATS are supporting our troops and their desire to accomplish their mission, their belief in their mission and the good they are doing in the world.  It is not a REPUBLICAN issue no matter how much you might want it to be.  I do not think that Marine or myself should have to go stand with the Republicans, or leave the title of "progressives, moderates, and democrats" to those who are against the war or who will not, or do not want to listen, to any possible good coming out of our troops service in Iraq. 

Marine certainly has the right to post all the pro-war stuff he wants, but that does not mean the rest of us has to pretend there is any possable good coming out of this war. Most Americans oppose the war, and the majority of Democrats are against the war, not in spite of the soldiers who fight, but in large part because we do support their service. We know it is wrong to ask other people to risk their lives for us when we were not threatened, and that goes for Kosovo too. The majortiy of rank and file Democrats are against the war and always have been, and we should be proud of that. Everyday Democrats are by a huge majority antiwar, even if our DLC crafted leadership does not get it. If people get the impression from reading this forum most Democrats oppose the war, it is because we do.

There may come a day Duck, when that military will have to choose whether or not to turn their guns on us.  If that day comes, it would be much better if they were NOT all on the other side! 

They already are, do you really believe they are suddenly going to move to the left?

[real_democrat]

Stan Goff, a veteran tells it...

An Open Letter to US Troops in Afghanistan and Iraq

Since they'd made up their minds, they didn't want to hear anything except rosy scenarios for their plans, because these reptile-minded, preppy gangsters are like spoiled children who can't abide anyone "expletive deleted"ing up their toy-emperor fantasies.

But when those fantasies did get "expletive deleted"ed up, by the realities they ran so hard to escape, they continued to pursue their grim agenda in spite of the mounting consequences, because they don't pay those consequences.

If I had my way, we would issue the whole shriveled, manicured lot of them their assault rifles, put them aboard an Air Force transport, tighten the leg straps on their static line parachutes, and boot their sorry asses out from 800 feet right over the middle of Ramadi ­ where they could drop their harnesses in the street and explain democracy to the locals.

But that's just ranting, because I do so despise them. I hate people who get away with "expletive deleted" just because they have money and power. And I hate people who sacrifice the lives of others to amplify or protect that power.

And it sounds even better when the expletive's are un-deleted! The site automatically sanitizes them away, like some cyber-FCC.

[flydangler]

BTW heart, methinks I saw someplace that the majority of folks in our military are neither registered Republican or Democrat, but that they tend to vote more for Republicans by a pretty healthy margin. Not exactly sure where I saw it, but methinks 'twas on tee vee, eh?

As to the assertions that there were no terrorists in Iraq while Saddam was in power, what about Abu Nidal? Also doubt that Salman Pak was a Girl Scout camp, eh?

One last thing. Why do people here tend to forget Saddam's proven direct support for Al Queda related groups actions that resulted in the deaths of Americans overseas like Abu Sayef's October 2002 terrorist bombing in Zamboanga or the Moro Islamic Lliberation Front's February 2003 terrorist bombing in Davao, and the fact Iraqi diplomats like Hassan Hussain were deported for their complicity in them? 'Tis a puzzlement!

[amy]

BTW heart, methinks I saw someplace that the majority of folks in our military are neither registered Republican or Democrat, but that they tend to vote more for Republicans by a pretty healthy margin. Not exactly sure where I saw it, but methinks 'twas on tee vee, eh?

As to the assertions that there were no terrorists in Iraq while Saddam was in power, what about Abu Nidal? Also doubt that Salman Pak was a Girl Scout camp, eh?

One last thing. Why do people here tend to forget Saddam's proven direct support for Al Queda related groups actions that resulted in the deaths of Americans overseas like Abu Sayef's October 2002 terrorist bombing in Zamboanga or the Moro Islamic Lliberation Front's February 2003 terrorist bombing in Davao, and the fact Iraqi diplomats like Hassan Hussain were deported for their complicity in them? 'Tis a puzzlement!

Did Bush name the names you give here as evidence of Saddam's support of terrorists and Al Queda related groups?

[flydangler]

Did Bush name the names you give here as evidence of Saddam's support of terrorists and Al Queda related groups?

Methinks some of his mouthpieces mighta mentioned Abu Nidal and the terrorist training camp at Salman Pak. To be honest I don't recall anybody from the administration ever bringing up Abu Sayeff or the MILF and I could never figure out why, eh? Not too smart methinks!

[amy]

Methinks some of his mouthpieces mighta mentioned Abu Nidal and the terrorist training camp at Salman Pak. To be honest I don't recall anybody from the administration ever bringing up Abu Sayeff or the MILF and I could never figure out why, eh? Not too smart methinks!

flydangler,
The White House should put you on its payroll-you know information that not even Bush could find to put in his "call to arms" speeches!

[Marine]

The intelligence community apparently very badly screwed up the info they gave to the White House. But my point has always been, Marine,that I do not believe the  White house was willing to really consider opposing evidence (or lack of evidence) about WMD. I realize that you are saying that Bush did not want to take the chance that the intelligence was accurate; that the stakes were too high too ignore if the intelligence was correct. I understand that level of concern.BUT Marine, think about this. If 9/11 had not occurred would Bush have invaded Iraq? Apparently intelligence indicated that Saddam had WMD and the means for delivering them to our doorstep, whether 9/11 happened or not.We knew the terrorists were not from Iraq, we knew that there were no Al queda training camps in Iraq. So I'm supposed to believe that since terrorists had the audacity to fly planes into the WTC, Saddam was thinking  that it was time for him to jump on the "we hate America" bandwagon and send missiles to our shores or start
funding terrorist activities against the U.S.? Post 9/11  Saddam is an immediate  problem but not an imminent threat pre 9/11? 9/11 was an excuse for invading Iraq and I believe the invasion has a lot more to do with oil and  permanent U.S.military bases in Iraq. And remember Marine inspectors would have been able to determine the threat level of the supposed WMD in Iraq. Allowing inspectors to continue on would have saved thousands of lives and billions of American dollars.

I remember Hans Blitz coming back with the story the Iraqis were not as forth coming with the inspectors as he expected for them to be.

I also remember Saddam playing catch me if you can games with the inspectors.

Personally I believe Saddam played games when it wasn't going to be tolerated to play games and he paid the price for it.

Had 9/11 not happened I doubt if Iraq would have been invaded. The world changed forever on 9/11/2001.