Marines Sound Off About The Iraq War Options

[flydangler]

Since every response I have received on the Downing Street memo has consisted of nothing but posturing and hyperbole I conclude the Downing Street memo to be the figment of somebody's imagination and/or wishful thinking.

Oh, it exists alright but methinks Michael Kinsley's most recent piece probably puts a bit of a different perspective on the subject. At least 'twould seem to put it inna light many here don't seem ta wanna consider, eh?

flydangler,
The White House should put you on its payroll-you know information that not even Bush could find to put in his "call to arms" speeches!

Nah, methinks my dislike for rhetoric and hyperbole would not hold me in good stead or make folks feel warm and fuzzy 'bout me, eh? If his folks couldn't find this info then they didn't look very hard. Methinks we covered most of it in links listed in this thread a while back.

[Marine]

U.S. Marine Corps Lance Cpl. Darrell D. Coleman clears his M 249 Squad Automatic Weapon after firing at numerous targets at a squad defense range at Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center, Twentynine Palms, Calif. The Dinwiddie, Va., native prepares with his fellow Marines for their upcoming deployment to Iraq in support of the Global War on Terrorism. U.S. Marine Corps photo by Lance Cpl. Athanasios L. Genos


U.S. Marine Corps
Lance Cpl. Durrell D. Coleman

Motivation, high morale keep Marine ready
for anything as he trains for an upcoming deployment to Iraq.
By U.S. Marine Corps Lance Cpl. Athanasios L. Genos
2nd Marine Division

MARINE CORPS AIR GROUND COMBAT CENTER, TWENTYNINE PALMS, Calif.— Sighting on the mounds of dirt in front of him, the Dinwiddie, Va., native eagerly awaits for targets to appear so he can fire his machine gun, eliminating targets as quickly as possible.

Motivation and high morale keeps U.S. Marine Corps Lance Cpl. Durrell D. Coleman, a field wireman attached to the Personal Security Detail of Headquarters and Service Company, 3rd Battalion, 8th Marine Regiment, ready for anything as he trains for an upcoming deployment to Iraq.

“Having high morale helps keep us focused on our jobs,” the 2003 Dinwiddie High School graduate explained.

With a cool, early morning breeze blowing around them, Coleman and his fellow Marines mounted the 7-ton vehicles ready to begin their training.

He began singing along with a few other Marines as others looked on in amazement at the sight they saw. Singing all different kinds of songs is a normal routine for them, whether doing regular duties or in the field training.

Smiling, Coleman said, “Singing and making music have always been some of my favorite things to do.”

The Marines let their vocal cords rest as they arrived at the squad defense range. They were briefed on what training they would be participating in and how they will use it in Iraq.

The Marines with combat experience and those who have deployed before explained how important the training is by citing personal experiences.

Coleman and the other Marines were issued rounds to begin the first course of firing. After receiving their training and a safety briefs, the two relays went through the course twice while facing three different scenarios each time. Coleman fired an M16 A4 Service Rifle in the first two relays. After all relays were finished, he was one of 20 Marines who fired the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon.

“I am more comfortable firing the [Squad Automatic Weapon] than anything else,” Coleman said. “It just feels more natural to me when I’m firing machine guns.”

Coleman was sent to Haiti with his battalion just shortly after he arrived at Camp Lejeune. He was fresh out of his job training and not too familiar with his job responsibilities while in a deployed environment. He was able to learn from the situations he faced and from the guidance he received from his superiors.




U.S. Marine Corps Lance Cpl. Darrell D. Coleman fires an M 249 Squad Automatic Weapon at stationary and moving targets while training at a squad defense range at Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center, Twentynine Palms, Calif. The Dinwiddie, Va., native prepares with his fellow Marines for their upcoming deployment to Iraq in support of the Global War on Terrorism. U.S. Marine Corps photo by Lance Cpl. Athanasios L. Genos


Coleman met the battalion chaplain in Haiti while on post. Establishing a good working relationship with Navy Lt. j.g. Robert E. Bradshaw, he was able to go to him with any problems or discouragements. Talking with the chaplain provided Coleman with a way to keep his morale high during their deployment.

“Just having the chaplain there to talk to, helped me with morale and keeping my motivation high,” Coleman explained.

“If you don’t know the Marines and sailors on their regular days, you can’t know then on their down days,” Bradshaw explained.

The experiences from Haiti have helped prepare Coleman for what he will face when deployed to Iraq.

“While in Haiti, I was given the chance to experience my job in the field and know what I would be facing in future deployments,” Coleman explained. “I went on convoys, patrols and provided security while I was there.”

The squad defense training, along with all previous training done during the evolution has also given him more confidence to complete his mission as a rifleman and field wireman.

All the experience Coleman gained in Haiti, along with his extensive predeployment training has prepared him for his departure from the comforts and security of home to Iraq with his battalion.

[amy]

I remember Hans Blitz coming back with the story the Iraqis were not as forth coming with the inspectors as he expected for them to be.

I also remember Saddam playing catch me if you can games with the inspectors.

Personally I believe Saddam played games when it wasn't going to be tolerated to play games and he paid the price for it.

Had 9/11 not happened I doubt if Iraq would have been invaded.  The world changed forever on 9/11/2001.

Exactly. How much of a clear and present danger was Saddam, really? If he had been, the intelligence would have led to action prior to 9/11. And yes Saddam played games with the inspectors-but apparently the fact that Bush punished Saddam for his recalitrance is not frightening N.Korea or Iran into submission. So again, I ask-why are we really in Iraq?

[Marine]

U.S. Marine Corps
Cpl. John Cain

Corporal Loves Being a Marine
By U.S. Marine Corps Sgt. Stephen D’Alessio
2nd Marine Division Combat Correspondent

MARINE CORPS BASE CAMP LEJEUNE, N.C., Dec. 10, 2004 — Most Marines relish their ‘down time' when they get back from conducting maneuvers in a field training environment or coming back from the war, but for one corporal with 2nd Battalion, 8th Marine Regiment, time away from his weapon is time wasted.

John Joseph Cain, a tall, 23-year-old from Midwest City, Okla. is a member of the battalion's Combined Anti-Armor Team. The team is basically the battalion's heavy gun platoon, reinforced with anything from machineguns to grenade launchers and even missile systems.

According to Cain, it's a tough job, but one of the best to have because of the firepower he and his team members have in their grasp.

As he cleans his medium machinegun at the regimental armory, one of the junior Marines in his charge asks if he wants anything to drink.

“I'll take a Coke,” he said, briefly looking up from the barrel of his weapon – never stopping from vigorously brushing oil on the flash suppressor. “He's a really good Marine, he continued – speaking of the private first class who just offered him the beverage. He's only 15 semester hours short of a bachelor's degree. That's the kind of men we have here.”

Cain takes immense pride in the warrior ethos that comes with being a Marine infantryman. But he also prides himself and his team members on being intelligent, unlike the stigma sometimes attached to the “grunts” that makes them seem like drones.

“It's not like that,” Cain said. “I did a lot before I joined the Corps. As a matter of a fact, I had a full ride to college, but I wanted to carry on the legacy of my family as warriors. My dad was a Marine from ‘61 through ‘68 and my uncle was an Army Ranger during the Vietnam Conflict. My other two uncles were door gunners on gun ships during that era. I wanted to fight, so I joined.”

And it couldn't have been a better time to get in the fight, said the corporal. Eight days after Sept. 11, he was shipped to boot camp to undergo one of the most vigorous basic training evolutions in the world.

When he graduated from the School of Infantry, he joined his current unit. They said there hasn't been any action since Grenada. Cain felt disappointed, but he didn't know what was in store. After all, being a Marine was something he had dreamed about since he was a child.

Cain's upbringing was not a conventional one. He was home schooled for most of his primary education and he graduated at 19. He worked as a page in the state senate house when he was 15 and 16, carrying messages and running errands




U.S. Marine Cpl. John Cain said he turned down college to carry on the legacy of his family as warriors. U.S. Marine Corps photo

for Sen. Dave Herbert.

He also held a job at a local Boy Scout camp. His volunteerism was one of the factors that led him to become a Marine and serve his country.

“I really love being a Marine,” said Cain. “I like teaching the new guys about the basics and watching them progress.”

Cain's most recent stint was with the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit (Special Operations Capable) as a member of the unit's battalion landing team. He fought in the battle of Al Nasiriyah as part of Task Force Tarawa in 2003.

“It was a pretty good fight there,” he said, “and I can't wait for the next.”

Now, Cain just returned from a training exercise where he received classes on the increasingly dangerous improvised explosive devices from Iraq and Afghanistan and other basic live-fire and maneuver training. He can't wait to get back to the fight though.

“I have aspirations to finish a successful tour in the Marine Corps someday and become a history teacher,” he said. “But for now, I just want to be in the fight.”

[Marine]

Exactly. How much of a clear and present danger was Saddam, really? If he had been, the intelligence would have led to action prior to 9/11. And yes Saddam played games with the inspectors-but apparently the fact that Bush punished Saddam for his recalitrance is not frightening N.Korea or Iran into submission. So again, I ask-why are we really in Iraq?

Because at the time we invaded Iraq we believed Iraq had WMD. Hell, according to their debreifings Saddam's Generals even thought they had WMD to repel our invasion, Saddam lied to them to. Why, because he thought it made him look like a big man if he made everyone think he had WMD.

This post has been edited by Marine: Jun 16 2005, 09:17 PM

[amy]

Because at the time we invaded Iraq we believed Iraq had WMD.  Hell, according to their debreifings Saddam's Generals even thought they had WMD to repel our invasion, Saddam lied to them to.  Why, because he thought it made him look like a big man if he made everyone think he had WMD.

Well Good Lord, Marine,
If everyone was convinced Saddam had WMD that he WAS GOING TO USE ON THE U.S., why did 9/11 have to happen for his removal? Terrorists have been around a while now, Saddam supposedly had WMD-why the Saddam hysteria post 9/11? If I had been president and I felt Saddam presented an imminent and clear danger to the U.S. I sure wouldn't have waited until a 9/11 incident to vigorously address the situation. If Saddam had been such an immediate and dire threat, the situation WOULD HAVE BEEN ADDRESSED, head on before 9/11, IMHO.

You know Marine, I and many Americans don't appreciate being treated as fools by the POTUS. Whether or not one agrees with the removal of Saddam and with this war in general is really not the issue for me. What the American people and Congress were told by the POTUS and others to soften us up for an invasion of Iraq is the issue. Call them lies, exaggerations, hyperbole, whatever you will, but the POTUS tried to psychologically manipulate the American people,in a post 9/11 world, to accept the need for invading Iraq. I find Bush's attempt at manipulation to be demeaning, insulting and nowhere within the acceptable parameters of a president's relationship to the people he serves. Well, I guess you know where I stand on the issue of Bush and this war!

[piccadilly]

If you like I can provide those "first hand accounts from letters, posts, and other supporters that do NOT come from any PR site, but would that change your mind?  Absolutely not!

Change my mind about what, Heart ? I have many opinions.

You are saying that these people should sign up here Duck?  Well...I doubt they would be interested in hearing all of this crap after they served their country and were happy to do so.

What crap are you talking about, Heart ? The pile where we ask that our troops be brought back home now ? In my book, I call it support of americans in danger.

  We are not even particularly important enough for people to "convince" since so many here seem to disregard the mulititude of similar reports from Iraq.

Are you sure these reports are from Iraq ? I ask because they certainly are not about Iraq. About some glorified corporation perhaps, but NOT about Iraq.

Scraping the bottom to find every possible anti-military drudge is no more, nor less, that PR for those against the war.

Anti-military ? Where did you find any posts here about suppressing the military ?

Actually, it's the military best interests that we get PR against war. So what's this thing that pro-war propaganda helps the military ? Please do elaborate. I really insist.

Your suggestion that someone's time would be better spent posting to Republican websites about this is problematic.

Not anybody's. Thanks to his dedication, Marine's ought to be plenty enough.

  You see, DEMOCRATS are supporting our troops and their desire to accomplish their mission, their belief in their mission and the good they are doing in the world.  It is not a REPUBLICAN issue no matter how much you might want it to be.

Then why is it always up to the Democrats to expose when the military are screwing up or are being misused ? When will we start hearing the repubs say the military are screwing up ?

I do not think that Marine or myself should have to go stand with the Republicans, or leave the title of "progressives, moderates, and democrats" to those who are against the war or who will not, or do not want to listen, to any possible good coming out of our troops service in Iraq.

Heart, I made my point absolutely clear in my last post and I know you can read. So try again, will you ? I am certainly not going to go through having to deny what I did not write.

Furthermore, no one said that work had to please you, or anyone who posts in this forum did they?  Some people feel the need to do the good work as they see it, irrrespective of whether or not it is appreciated by others...it's a dharma type thing. 

This is getting slightly annoying. Go back, read what I wrote and please quote what you are talking about.

other people would like to hear both sides and that balanced view is sorely missing here. I for one, do not want to present a picture to the world that DEMOCRATS are all against the war,

You're right, every herd has it's black sheep.
The mic is open, let's hear it. Please tell us the good reasons for which we invaded Iraq 2 years ago, why we killed thousands of Iraqis and why dozens of iraqis and US troops are killed every month since then.

This post has been edited by picadilly: Jun 17 2005, 12:54 AM

[piccadilly]

Those who want to be in Iraq deserve to have us hear their story too.

On which moral grounds ?
Do they even know about CGCS or what CGCS stands for ?
Do they know their story is posted on CGCS ?
Have they even read the article which reports their story and do they agree with the final edit ?

Those who want to be in Iraq make up the largest segment of the soldiers there (in as much as anyone wants to be away from home and in a war zone).

How do you know ?

There have been many wars, and many interventions, and soldiers do not pick which war they serve in, nor who their commander in chief is do they?

And your point is ?

I'm sure there was some section of those who served in Kosovo that did not believe in their mission, and were unhappy to go, but in fairness to our military, they went anyway and did their jobs...the least we could do is support them as equally, across time, as they have the US.

You are confusing supporting the troops, supporting the military institution in it's own job of supporting the troops, and supporting the politicians who decide to commit troops.

[Marine]

U.S. Marine Corps
Lance Cpl. Lyndsey Curtis

Marine Ensures Troops Get Mail
By Sgt. Stephen D’Alessio
2nd Marine Division Combat Correspondent

MARINE CORPS BASE CAMP LEJEUNE, N.C., Dec. 7, 2004 — For most Americans, taking a trip to the mailbox is no big deal. But for Lance Cpl. Lyndsey Curtis of 2nd Marine Division, mail is mission essential.

Curtis is a 2nd Marine Division Headquarters Battalion mail clerk, responsible for care and delivery of mail for nearly 4,000 Marines. And this, 21-year-old native of Pittsburgh, Pa. takes her job with the kind of zeal only the most serious Marines could relate to. After all, she literally holds the key to the Marines’ only physical communication home.

Some might say that she accomplishes more before 8 a.m. than many people do all day long. An average day for her begins 6 a.m. when she meets up with her section for physical training. Her responsibility to her fitness is foremost – especially as she is about to embark for Iraq early next year for operations in the Global War on Terrorism.

Iraq is a long way from Natrona Heights where she attended Highlands High School, but distance isn’t everything, according to Curtis.

“Bringing mail to Marines and sailors in my unit makes home a little closer,” said Curtis.

Late morning brings her to the battalion headquarters where she and another Marine sort through hundreds of pieces of mail. From boxes to bags, letters to love notes -- Curtis does it all.

Each of nearly 300 parcels and pieces of mail are stamped and sorted every day.

“Some days it’s double and triple that amount,” said Curtis. “We bring two huge bags in per day. There’s so much of it; we dream about mail.”

She and her fellow mail clerk empty out their government van and trudge up to the headquarters each carrying a large yellow bag of mail over their shoulders. As they cross the street, cars stop for them and it’s another round of sorting.

“Some people call us Mrs. Claus,” said Curtis. “That’s because most of the time, other than bills, mail is like a present. Anybody in the service relies on mail, no matter what rank. Sometimes it’s the only thing that keeps them going.

“Without mail, what would you have?”

Curtis has nearly completed her four-year tour in the Corps and plans to get out. According to her, being a postal clerk has been a huge steppingstone.

“I plan on working for the post office when I get out,” said Curtis. “I love the job because at the end of the day you know you did something for someone else. The only thing I do is pray for less mail.


Lance Cpl. Lyndsey Curtis of 2nd Marine Division sorts the mail. She is slated to deploy in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom. Courtesy photo



“I love mail; I love my job, but I love my one-year-old boy Michael more than anything else in the world. The job can also be frustrating at times, but you always know you’re getting someone their letters, boxes and . . . bills.

“If someone is waiting for important mail, I try to go the extra mile and give a Marine a call when his or her mail comes in. Sometimes that backfires on me though because a Marine may be deployed and their mail is some kind of food. When I walk in, there are trails of ants and cockroaches the size of my feet waiting for me. I can’t throw it away though because it’s someone’s mail.”

Being a postal clerk also has some mysterious perks. Curtis and her partner know all of headquarters personnel on a first name basis. Only some of them don’t know it yet.

“People get freaked out sometimes when they come to pick up the mail and we just hand it to them without a word,” said Curtis. “Or if I see someone’s nametape on their uniform and I know their first name and middle initial while they’ve never seen me before. What they don’t realize is that I see their name every day on their mail.”

So when the Marines of the Division deploy to Iraq early next year, they can rest assured their mail will be safely stamped, sorted and sent out by Curtis. And they’ll know that rain, sleet, snow or sandstorm won’t stop her.

[big sky brad]

As to the assertions that there were no terrorists in Iraq while Saddam was in power, what about Abu Nidal? Also doubt that Salman Pak was a Girl Scout camp, eh?

One last thing. Why do people here tend to forget Saddam's proven direct support for Al Queda related groups actions that resulted in the deaths of Americans overseas like Abu Sayef's October 2002 terrorist bombing in Zamboanga or the Moro Islamic Lliberation Front's February 2003 terrorist bombing in Davao, and the fact Iraqi diplomats like Hassan Hussain were deported for their complicity in them? 'Tis a puzzlement!

And there is no proof of any of these half-baked assertions!

These are the same, tired, worn out excuses you posted on the old JK forum last spring for the Iraq War.

Then you posted old, dated links to pro-war, right-wing articles to try and back up these lame assertions. And all of those links to all of those articles were refuted by geewood on the JK forum.

This post has been edited by big sky brad: Jun 17 2005, 08:23 AM

[flydangler]

Father and Son to Fight Together in Iraq
Vietnam Vet Father, 57, and Son, 34, to Serve in Same Marine Unit
By GEOFF MORRELL - ABC News


Feb. 20, 2005 — When Chris Phelps left Camp Lejeune, N.C., for Iraq last week, he said goodbye to his family, but the 34-year-old Marine major told his father he would see him shortly.

That's because Master Gunnery Sgt. Kendall Phelps, a 57-year-old music teacher from Silver Lake, Kan., will be joining his son there next month.

Last Fought in Vietnam

Members of the 5th Civil Affairs Group, the Phelpses will spend seven months together in Al Anbar province, one of the most dangerous areas of Iraq.

"I'm psychologically imbalanced, " joked Kendall Phelps, a Vietnam Veteran who last saw combat 37 years ago.

He reluctantly retired from the Marine Reserves in 1999, but after Sept. 11 Kendall began trying to re-enlist.

He became even more determined when Chris' Marine unit reached Baghdad in March 2003 and he e-mailed a photo home to his dad with the caption, "Wish you were here!"

"I just felt like I had all this knowledge and training," recalled Kendall. "And here I am sitting at home eating Post Toasties while young devil dogs like my son are over there. And I just needed to be a part of it."

Last November, Kendall's campaign paid off. He was invited to join a Marine unit helping Iraqis rebuild their society. It turned out to be the same unit his son is in.

Chris said he then asked his dad, "Why do you want to do this?" and his dad's response was, "I'm a Marine. I'm an American. I'm patriotic. I believe in what we're doing. And I wanna make a difference."

Rare Type of Family

It is rare for members of the same family to serve together in the same unit. Ever since World War II, the military has discouraged it. But if relatives volunteer to serve together there is no policy against it.

"I think they will take comfort in the fact that they're both there, but for us it will be twice as hard," said Kendall's wife, Sherma.

[heart]

Picadilly: My point is that I have no problem with DISSENT....and I also will defend those who DISSENT from YOUR idea of what everyone ought to think and write. If you truly stand for the right for a person to hold a dissenting viewpoint, then you can not lambast, mock or belittle those who DISSENT FROM YOUR WORLDVIEW! If you engage in this action, instead of addressing the issue, then you are no better than those you oppose.

You cannot weigh dispatches from Dhar Jamal with any more credence than those from Michael Yon...and you cannot weigh one soldiers personal story against the war, with a soldier's story in support of the war. Policy is one thing, but disallowing a soldier, or any person, to support the troops in the way HE OR SHE finds most helpful is just as authoritarian as its opposite.

If you believe that we should support our troops by withdrawing them, that's your right. Do not expect that everyone MUST feel that way, and may NOT deviate from that position. Do NOT expect that you may come here to read ONLY the stories of soldiers who oppose the war. That' is demogoguery short and simple!

Be careful not to BECOME YOUR OWN ENEMY in an effort to defeat that enemy!

This post has been edited by heart: Jun 17 2005, 11:43 AM

[piccadilly]

How 'bout this one?
Father and Son to Fight Together in Iraq

Only because you ask Fly...

...
Chris said he then asked his dad, "Why do you want to do this?" and his dad's response was, "I'm a Marine. I'm an American. I'm patriotic. I believe in what we're doing. And I wanna make a difference."
...

Exactly how I previously described these stories, raw bits and pieces assembled to suggest that this is the way things should be: propaganda.

Is there anything this Dad may have possibly forgotten to justify his decision ?
Would someone ever speak like that ? It sounds like he's simply repeating some line he learned because it looks good in print.

Public Affairs reporters pick up these short bits and pieces, one-liners advertisement slogans because they are easy to remember, and advertisement has given these lines some cool and smart intonations and physical expressions to mimick while saying them.

What makes these stories incredibly boring is the same overused slogans and ready-made answers to express an attitude or to show off the values the actors of the story hold. Like President Chimp, Public Affairs don't seem to grab nuance either. All these people depicted in the stories look alike as they are completely interchangeable. What's the word for it ? Ah yes, CLONES. They talk the same way, think the same way, as if their american cultural heritage, at least what Public Affairs wants to show, is restricted as to match the same personality complexity as President "No-Nuance" Chimp.

So there, you have the word, "restriction". Restriction of ideas and of words, to allow those values promoted through propaganda to artificially stand above others. The problem is, to praise some of these values requires to erase anything that can remind of competing values, particularly when that value is simply "difference" itself. That is why everybody looks alike in these Marine Public Affairs reports.

This post has been edited by picadilly: Jun 17 2005, 12:09 PM

[Acebass]

Picadilly: My point is that I have no problem with DISSENT....and I also will defend those who DISSENT from YOUR idea of what everyone ought to think and write. If you truly stand for the right for a person to hold a dissenting viewpoint, then you can not lambast, mock or belittle those who DISSENT FROM YOUR WORLDVIEW!  If you engage in this action, instead of addressing the issue, then you are no better than those you oppose. 

You cannot weigh dispatches from Dhar Jamal with any more credence than those from Michael Yon...and you cannot weigh one soldiers personal story against the war, with a soldier's story in support of the war.  Policy is one thing, but disallowing a soldier, or any person, to support the troops in the way HE OR SHE finds most helpful is just as authoritarian as its opposite. 

If you believe that we should support our troops by withdrawing them, that's your right.  Do not expect that everyone MUST feel that way, and may NOT deviate from that position.  Do NOT expect that you may come here to read ONLY the stories of soldiers who oppose the war.  That' is demogoguery short and simple!

Be careful not to BECOME YOUR OWN ENEMY in an effort to defeat that enemy!

heart the give and take is fairly equal, and yes I've given mine when pushed, I would hope we could do without any of it at all. I'm willing.

[piccadilly]

...
Policy is one thing, but disallowing a soldier, or any person, to support the troops in the way HE OR SHE finds most helpful is just as authoritarian as its opposite. 
...

What you are saying is that it is allright if I pee on Old Glory if I claim it is to support the troops.

If you believe that we should support our troops by withdrawing them, that's your right.  Do not expect that everyone MUST feel that way, and may NOT deviate from that position.  Do NOT expect that you may come here to read ONLY the stories of soldiers who oppose the war.  That' is demogoguery short and simple!

Dissent has NEVER been one of my targets on this forum.

My targets in this thread are Lies and Embezzlement.

But if you attempt to make dissent prevail, don't expect a free ride.

This post has been edited by picadilly: Jun 17 2005, 12:28 PM

[Marine]

What you are saying is that it is allright if I pee on Old Glory if I claim it is to support the troops.

Dissent has NEVER been one of my targets on this forum.

My targets in this thread are Lies and Embezzlement.

But if you attempt to make dissent prevail, don't expect a free ride.

Well if Lies and Embezzlements are your concern why don't we see anything from you condemning Al Jazeera, the DailyKOS, Dahr Jamail, or Counterpunch? All pure propaganda but we never hear a peep from you that those sources might well be unabashed horse "expletive deleted".

Oh, I get it, my propaganda is bad, your propaganda is good? My propaganda should be attacked , your propaganda is immune to criticism? Can we say "in a pig's eye"?

[heart]

?
Where the hell have you picked up the suicide bombers are not iraqis ?
How the hell can anyone tell those smoking body pieces belong to an iraqi, or an iranian or a syrian ?.

I have found this to be true from all sources involved...from Michael Moore, to Alexander Cockburn, to Counter-Terrorism studies and to Iraqis themselves. Let me know if you need more proof and I will get it from whatever brand of the political spectrum you like. I can even provide you with a link to the recruitment tapes for foreign jihadis to go to Iraq, and their taped pre-martyrdom messages.
********************************************************
May 12, 2005
Osman said: “The foreign Islamists and the ex-Ba’athists and regime people have nothing in common ideo-logically, but tactically they both want to disrupt and destroy the new situation in Iraq, and they are prepared to ally to that end.’’

One Iraqi intelligence officer said the failure to secure Iraq’s borders had allowed many young men from Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Tunisia, Iran and Egypt, to come to Iraq to “achieve martyrdom’’.

“Cooperation between these foreign militants and the domestic insurgency, however, is also in danger of turning the homegrown resistance into a breeding ground for a major jihadi movement.’’

He said the testimony of scores of non-Iraqi Arabs who had been arrested in Iraq pointed to the network of suicide bombers coming mostly from Syria, and he claimed that the Syrian secret service was involved in their training.

Syria has come under repeated pressure from the US to shore up the gaping holes along its porous border with Iraq, but vehemently denies any involvement in the preparation of suicide bombers. A recent US offensive near the Iraqi-Syrian border was designed to disrupt the flow of fighters into the country.

http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?artic..._international/
***********************************************************
Report: Mess-hall suicide bomber was Saudi
Arab newspaper says medical student killed 22 people The Associated Press
Updated: 7:51 p.m. ET Jan. 3, 2005CAIRO, Egypt - The suicide bomber who killed 22 people when he blew himself up in a U.S. mess hall in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul was a Saudi medical student, an Arab newspaper reported Monday.

The Saudi-owned newspaper Asharq Al-Awsat identified him as 20-year-old Ahmed Said Ahmed al-Ghamdi, citing unnamed friends of the man’s father. The friends said members of an Iraqi resistance group contacted al-Ghamdi’s father to tell him his son was the suicide bomber who carried out the Dec. 21 attack, the deadliest on an American installation in Iraq.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6782944/
***********************************************
March 1, 2005:
The Islamic militant part of the resistance appears to have an endless supply of suicide bombers - most of them non-Iraqi - willing to die while staging attacks. But that also means an extensive network run by Iraqis capable of providing intelligence, vehicles, explosives and the means to detonate them.

A source in Baghdad said: "Sabawi was in Hasakah. The Kurds captured him and handed him to Iraqi Kurds in the north". They were probably members of the Kurdistan Democratic Party which has many supporters among Syrian Kurds.
http://www.countercurrents.org/iraq-enders010305.htm

June 1, 2005 -- WASHINGTON - More than 40 percent of the suicide bombers dispatched by al- Zarqawi to attack Iraqis and U.S. troops hailed from Saudi Arabia, according to a new study. Only 9 percent of the bombers were Iraqis, said the report by the SITE Institute, a counterterror group.

The SITE Institue recently discovered a "Martyrs' List" that [ terror leader Abu Musab] Zarqawi posted on a Web site to commemorate the fanatics who were recruited as foot soldiers in the group's deadly campaign of car bombings and other attacks to undermine Iraq's transition to democracy. An analysis of 107 bombers whose names and backgrounds Zarqawi's group published revealed that 45 of the dead extremists, or 42 percent, came from Saudi Arabia, said Rita Katz, SITE director.

Many other bombers were Syrian, Kuwaiti, Palestinian, Afghani, Libyan and even French, while only 10 of the attackers, or 9 percent, were Iraqi-born.

"What we see here is there are a lot of people who appear to be quite well educated leaving universities, good jobs and families to go to Iraq to fight the jihad," Katz said.
reprinted here http://wizbangblog.com/archives/006073.php
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Is it a coincidence that the majority of suicide killers in Iraq are non-Iraqi Arabs, while we are yet to hear of a non-Palestinian suicide killer in Palestine? Perhaps we will hear of new Fatwa that considers Iraqis who seek to build their country and democracy a greater threat to the future of the Arab Umma (nation) than the Israeli occupiers! Else, how could this amazing ability to stop the infiltration of Arab suicide killers from the neighboring countries into Palestine could be justified, while they easily flow into Mesopotamia? What is the secret to the enthusiasm to kill Iraqis? Do they want to liberate Palestine by killing Iraqis; just as Saddam invaded and occupied Kuwait with the pretext of liberating Palestine?

The message behind the assassination of Samir Kassir to the Lebanese and Syrians is the same message the killers in Iraq send to the Iraqis and Arabs: do not dream of freedom, it could kill you… Would Samir and Hariri be assassinated had it not been for Lebanon to be on the verge of realizing its dream? Would the suicide-bombers flood into Iraq had it not been on the verge of realizing that same dream?

Al-Hayat, June 6, 2005
retrieved at: http://www.tharwaproject.com/English/index...d=2596&Itemid=1
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Monday, February 28, 2005
By Donna Abu-Nasr
RIYADH, Saudi Arabia — A few weeks after his son Ahmed disappeared, Abdullah al-Shayea got a call from an Iraqi official saying the 19-year-old was an intended suicide bomber who barely survived blowing up a fuel tanker in a deadly Christmas Day attack in Baghdad.

Ahmed is one of many Saudi youths — estimates run from the low hundreds to as many as 2,500 — who have slipped into Iraq in the past two years, often traveling through Syria to join other Arab and Muslim recruits eager to translate a fiercely anti-U.S., Al Qaeda-inspired ideology into strikes against Americans and their Western and Iraqi allies.

"I was stunned," said al-Shayea of his son's role in the explosion, which killed at least nine people just hours after Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld (search) made a surprise visit to the Iraqi capital. "I had no clue he was even thinking of going there."

Some go because an aggressive anti-terror campaign in the kingdom has made it harder for them to operate in Saudi Arabia, others because they don't think it's right to risk killing Saudis and Muslims while attacking Western targets in their own country. But all of them believe their mission is a jihad (search), or holy war, that a true Muslim should not forsake.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/index.php?id=1550
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Arab volunteers killed in Iraq: an Analysis By Reuven Paz(PRISM Series of Global Jihad, No. 1/3 – March 2005) Introduction:
Since the end of the major phase of the war in Iraq and the collapse of the former Baathist regime of Saddam Hussein in May 2003, Iraq—like Afghanistan in the 1980s, and Bosnia and Chechnya in the 1990s—has turned into a magnet for Jihadi volunteers. Unlike the case of Afghanistan, Bosnia, and Chechnya, the vast majority of the volunteers that streamed into Iraq are Arabs, while only few fighters stem from non-Arab Muslim countries or emigrant communities in the West. One possible reason for the predominantly Arab composition of Jihadists in Iraq may be the fact that Iraq is an Arab country; occupied by the “Crusaders,” thus stimulating heightened degree of Arab solidarity among Arab supporters of Jihadi-Salafi individuals and groups. An additional reason may be the ease with which Saudis, Kuwaitis, Jordanians, or Syrians can cross the borders to Iraq. Furthermore, the Sunni Jihadi groups, and many other Islamists, even from within the Saudi and other Arab Islamic establishments, view the insurgency in Iraq as a legitimate Jihad not only against the Americans, but against the Shi`is as well.
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:RGkbD...non-iraqi&hl=en
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SUMMER 2004
We have some statistics to help us sort through this morass. Approximately 300 individuals carrying non-Iraqi passports have been arrested in the past 14 months, according to senior U.S. military sources. The first wave of these “foreign fighters” (between April and October 2003), was mainly composed of Arab volunteers from neighboring countries, most of them Palestinian refugees enlisted to enter the struggle either by the remnants of the Iraqi mukhabarat or any number of terrorist organizations before and during the war in refugee camps in Jordan, Lebanon and Syria.

The second wave, which seems to be growing in size, is composed mostly of Islamic militants recruited throughout Europe and the Middle East and then sent to Iraq through the same elaborate human pipeline used by the mujaheddin to send volunteers to the Balkans, Chechnya and Afghanistan in the 1990s. On November 19, 2003, the New York Times quoted American government sources as estimating the “foreign fighters phenomenon” to number between 1,000 and 3,000 individuals. A more reasonable approximation currently being floated by U.S. and British intelligence analysts puts the overall force at between 300 and 500 “foreign volunteers”, most of them Islamic militants, and spread in small cells of between five and eight operatives. This fits the modus operandi of Al-Qaeda and its affiliates.
http://www.inthenationalinterest.com/Artic...sue25Debat.html
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[heart]

If "Dissent is the highest form of Patriotism", it shouldn't be too hard for you to figure out it's lowest form.

You assert that "Dissent (disagreeing) with the government is the highest form of patriotism and therefore it follows that its converse would be the antithesis of patriotism or "it's lowest form"? If this is correct, then it logically follows that anything the government does, by definition, you oppose? Therefore, when the government decides it will pull our troops from Iraq, your dissent will be needed as it will be the "highest form of patriotism".

This post has been edited by heart: Jun 17 2005, 12:50 PM

[heart]

Just curious Heart, how do you know that the largest segment of the soldiers in Iraq want to be there?

And I'm wondering what you mean when you say that there may come a day when our military, the majority of whom are republicans, will have to choose whether or not to turn their guns on us? What are you talking about!

If the military vote was 67% for Bush, I seriously doubt the vote was for "lower taxs, against abortion, and against Gay marriage. When you are in the military you know you enlisted to fight wars. If you are voting for the guy that put us at war, then it stands to reason that you are in favor of that war.

If there should ever come a day, when say....Bush declares himself the dictator for life of the USA (it could happen, you never know)...or some other nut-case...then I do not want the military to be on his side.

When Alexander Hague was talking to Nixon about his options before resigning he said "Well Mr. President you have the military". If Nixon had chosen that option and the military were all Republicans then I wonder if he could have pulled that off? It is just plain idiotic to me to set a course that leads to the military of this country being in favor of one Party due to the opposition Party's outright belittlement of those soldiers that believe in the mission they are performing.

[Marine]

Father, son plan for special day together in Iraq
Submitted by: II Marine Expeditionary Force (FWD)
Story Identification #: 200561741916
Story by Staff Sgt. Ronna M. Weyland

CAMP FALLUJAH, Iraq (June 17, 2005) -- This Father’s Day will be spent in a foreign country, but the day will still be celebrated together for one Powder Springs, Ga., family.

“I have a couple of cigars that were a gift to me that we are going to smoke on Father’s Day or the first chance we get,” said Larry Murray, civilian contractor, G-6, II Marine Expeditionary Force (FWD).

Murray, who arrived in Iraq June 1, was fortunate enough to be stationed on the same base as his son, Private Nicholas R. Murray, 20, assault amphibious vehicle crewman, 2nd Platoon, Bravo Company, 2nd Assault Amphibian Battalion, 2nd Marine Division.

Nicholas said he knew his father might be coming to Iraq before he deployed himself in March.

“There was talk about it, but nothing was for certain,” said Nicholas. “I was pretty excited when I found out I would have my father out here at the same time. That doesn’t happen for too many people.”

Larry said it was a unique opportunity to be able to come to Iraq; one he couldn’t pass up. He had learned about a job available working for DataPath in satellite communications supporting II MEF (FWD).

“I got a leave of absence from work and my guard unit, to take this opportunity,” he said.

Larry said he is no stranger to deployments and was deployed in support of Operation Bright Star during the terrorist attacks Sept. 11, 2001. He is a reservist with 283rd Combat Communication Squadron, Georgia Air National Guard at Dobbins Air Reserve Base, in Marietta, Ga.

He said despite being in the National Guard, he hasn’t had the opportunity to deploy in support of Operations Enduring Freedom or Iraqi Freedom.

“It gives me a chance to feel like I have done something for the cause,” he said about working in Iraq.

Despite Nicholas’ high operational tempo requiring him to go outside the wire often, both father and son hope to be able to spend some time playing cards and just hanging out getting to know each other on a different level.

“It is a good chance for us to bond and get to know each other, not to sound to cliché,” said Nicholas about spending time with his father. “I got to take him out on a ride in one of the tracks too and that was fun.”

Both agree they believe in what they are doing in Iraq.

“I didn’t know exactly what to expect when I first got here since it was my first deployment,” said Nicholas. “I think we are doing a lot of good out here. I am lucky to be working with a good group of guys who know what they are doing and learning from some who have been here before.”

Nicholas said he has also learned to appreciate things a lot more and not to take life for granted. His father agreed.

“I think learning to appreciate life is a lesson people don’t usually learn until later in life,” Larry said. “In a way it is a gift for these young people to learn this early on in life.”

Back home in Powder Springs, Deborah Murray is proud of both her husband and son.

“I am so proud of both of them. The feeling is too big for words,” she wrote in an e-mail. “When I found out about Larry going over there I was happy. I am glad they are together and that Nick has someone to look after him. I am greatly comforted by that. Most people don't understand, they say it's terrible that both my husband and son are over there, and I tell them, no, that's right where Larry needs to be right now.”

Deborah had her own message to pass to her husband, “Happy Father’s Day Larry...you are truly the best dad and as far as I'm concerned, no one else even comes close. I love you and am very proud of both of you.”