Missing Black Boxes WTC 9/11 Found..., Analyzed and Concealed... hmmm Options

[Desron]

But Lindorff's article is not based on Mike Bellone's and Nicholas De Masi's testimony, he only mentions them in passing...
....It is based on an anonymous source at the NTSB, so I assume he will simply point that out.....
And he points out the FBI is rather vague...

In the article, the author asks this question:

Why would the main intelligence and law enforcement arm of the U.S. government want to hide from the public not just the available information about the two hijacked flights that provided the motivation and justification for the nation's "War on Terror" and for its two wars against Afghanistan and Iraq, but even the fact that it has the devices which could contain that information?

He hasn't shown that the government has the black boxes and he is going by the word of one unnamed source and the previous comments made by two men of who one of which is apparently a fraud.

Nothing I have posted proves the blacks boxes were not retrieved but I think there's enough there to cause people to pause and think.

This post has been edited by Desron: Dec 21 2005, 03:47 PM

[real_democrat]

In the article, the author asks this question:
He hasn't shown that the government has the black boxes and he is going by the word of one unnamed source and the previous comments made by two men of who one of which is apparently a fraud.

Nothing I have posted proves the blacks boxes were not retrieved but I think there's enough there to cause people to pause and think.

But his source was that un-named source, and that source was the basis for this article. The two firefighters were only mentioned as background and as a means of corroboration. Reporters often use un-nmaed sources, and as you point out we have to be skeptical, but if the source is reliable it could be a valid finding.

[Desron]

But his source was that un-named source, and that source was the basis for this article. The two firefighters were only mentioned as background and as a means of corroboration. Reporters often use un-nmaed sources, and as you point out we have to be skeptical, but if the source is reliable it could be a valid finding.

We don't know if the source is reliable or not. As for the corroboration provided by the two firefighters, one of whom was actually just a civilian volunteer, IMO, that is very suspect.

[Desron]

Mr. Bellone has many different titles.

Gere who was accompanied by Michael Bellone, a safety director with the New York City Fire Department found the page near the place where the south tower once stood. The page was from the book of Genesis and told of the account of the building of the Tower of Babel.

http://www.blessedcause.org/Encourage/Biblepage.htm

Michael Bellone, an honorary New York firefighter and founder of Trauma Response Assistance for Children, addresses a group of people who attended the unveiling Sunday of the 9-11 memorial at Olympia Resort and Spa. Bellone has donated several pieces of his equipment and clothing he used during cleanup at the ground zero site as part of the memorial.

http://www.gmtoday.com/news/local_stories/...09122005_02.asp

His account is supported by a volunteer, Mike Bellone , whose efforts at Ground Zero have been chronicled in the New York Times and elsewhere . Bellone said assisted DeMasi and the agents and that saw a device that resembling a "black box" in the back of the firefighter's ATV.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0410/S00328.htm

World Trade Center Task Force Fire Safety Director Mike Bellone helps Jamie Joyce, 8, into one of the jackets he and his fellow workers wore in their rescue efforts at the World Trade Center. Jamie's brother Patrick, 10, stands nearby, outfitted in a similar jacket and hat.

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2002/911-sunday.html

Barrett and Ground Zero Recovery Director Michael Bellone, both part of the Sept. 11 rescue and recovery effort, brought photos, pieces of the building and of the hijacked plane and their own tales of heroism. Both spent 257 straight days there.

http://reg.naplesnews.com/npdn/web/loginFo...2609767,00.html

“Why did God let such a bad thing happen?”

This was the first question asked of New York City firefighter Bob Barrett and Fire Safety Director Mike Bellone when they visited a Woodside, Queens day camp this summer. Many parents might be at a loss for words if asked this question by their own children; but these men, who were at Ground Zero throughout the entire recovery effort, are quick to turn such questions around and look at the situation from a positive perspective.

http://www.parentsknow.com/articles/articl...p?id=1031066144

[dennisjames]

I still find it hard to believe that NORAD would allow any flying object to strike the pentagon. :xmas:

[Indianhead]

Trust me.

[Noonan]

I still find it hard to believe that NORAD would allow any flying object to strike the pentagon. :xmas:

Based upon the defense structure at the time, what would have stopped something from flying into the Pentagon, or any other building?

NORAD was for defense against foreign attack coming from outside our borders.

[Desron]

Was at a blog where this story is being discussed and here are a couple of comments:

IMHO, there were no real planes used on 9/11-- it was a great hoax (much like the moon landing). They certainly did a good job making it look like planes crashed, and they made some great movies showing the second WTC hit. But there were no planes used, and that's why there no black boxes found and that is why this story of boxes being found is a distraction.

Flight 93 wasn't shot down either. Look at the neat little crater in Shanksville with not one plane part visible. Planes do not cash like that. It was a hoax, just like the Pentagon hit and the WTC hit. It was all done with bombs and planted pane parts.

This whole story is highly suspect.

Bellone is clearly not the most reliable of witnesses, which makes his version of events suspect.

More likely, this whole thing is disinformation. It is designed to confirm the myth about the three passenger jets hitting the WTC and the Pentagon. If the flight recorders were found, then that confirms that they were passenger planes. If the FBI destroyed them, that confirms that they have something to hide.

The net effect is that everyone goes off at a tangent and forgets all the evidence to the contrary. Mission Accomplished!

If flight recorders were genuinely found, they would have been pre-programmed and planted at the same time as the explosives. In this case, of course, there would be no reason for the results not to be published.

This story just does not make sense - which is probably the intention.

Curiouser and curiouser!

[real_democrat]

A couple of observations....

1. Lindorff source was someone inside the NTSB, not Bellone or De Masi.
2. I have not heard anyone here say anything about De-Masi, only Bellone, I assume that is because they could not find any dirt on him.

The source at the NTSB was the most important thing though, if Lindorff is reliable he should not be ignored. Here is a little of his Bio...

http://www.freemarketnews.com/Writers-Bio-...sis.asp?wid=154

Award-winning investigative reporter Dave Lindorff has been working as a journalist for 30 years. A regular columnist for CounterPunch (www.counterpunch.org), he also writes frequently for In These Times (www.InTheseTimes.org) and Salon magazine (www.salon.com), as well as for Businessweek, the Nation and Treasury&Risk Management Magazine. In the late 1970s, he ran the Daily News bureau covering Los Angeles County government, and in the mid-'90s, spent several years as a correspondent in Hong Kong and China for Businessweek. Over the years he has written for such publications as Rolling Stone, Mother Jones, Village Voice, Forbes, The London Observer and the Australian National Times.

[Desron]

A couple of observations....

1. Lindorff source was someone inside the NTSB, not Bellone or De Masi.
   
2. I have not heard anyone here say anything about De-Masi, only Bellone, I assume that is because they could not find any dirt on him.

The source at the NTSB was the most important thing though, if Lindorff is reliable he should not be ignored. Here is a little of his Bio...

http://www.freemarketnews.com/Writers-Bio-...sis.asp?wid=154

If you read the title of Lindroff's article, you'll see that it says this:

9/11: Missing Black Boxes in World Trade Center Attacks Found by Firefighters, Analyzed by NTSB, Concealed by FBI

Which firefighters is he talking about? Why, that would be Bellone and DeMasi. Lundroff doesn't say that NTSB or the FBI found them.

[Desron]

As for Nicholas DeMasi, the only thing I can find about him in connection with this story is a passage attributed to him in a book titled "Behind-the-Scenes: Ground Zero"

At one point I was assigned to take Federal Agents around the site to search for the black boxes from the planes. We were getting ready to go out. My ATV was parked at the top of the stairs at the Brooks Brothers entrance area. We loaded up about a million dollars worth of equipment and strapped it into the ATV. When we got into the ATV to take off, the agent accidentally pushed me forward. The ATV was already in reverse, and my foot went down on the gas pedal. We went down the stairs in reverse. Fortunately, everything was okay. There were a total of four black boxes. We found three.

"Behind-the-Scenes: Ground Zero" was written by Gail Swanson with help from Bellone and retired fireman Robert Barret.

http://www.summeroftruth.org/groundzero.html

This post has been edited by Desron: Dec 23 2005, 12:11 AM

[real_democrat]

If you read the title of Lindroff's article, you'll see that it says this:
Which firefighters is he talking about? Why, that would be Bellone and DeMasi. Lundroff doesn't say that NTSB or the FBI found them.

Its not the title of the article that matters, it is its contents...

Bellone and DeMasi said they found them a long time ago, but Lindroff only wrote the article because a source at the NTSB said they had them. It would have made no sense at all to simply report again what Ballone DeMasi said just out the blue. It would also have made no sense for Lindorff to report the new information he had without mentioning previous reports of the existence of the boxes.

The article quotes an un-named NTSB source as having the boxes.

Off the record, we had the boxes," the source says. "You'd have to get the official word from the FBI as to where they are, but we worked on them here."

The article quotes an named FBI source giving much less than an outright denial they exist.

"To the best of my knowledge, the flight recording devices from the World Trade Center crashes were never recovered. At least we never had them," says FBI spokesman Stephen Kodak

Those two pieces of information are what make the story relevent. Any story about those boxes would also have to refer to Ballone and DeMasi, or else be called incomplete.

[Desron]

Its not the title of the article that matters, it is its contents...

Bellone and DeMasi said they found them a long time ago, but Lindroff only wrote the article because a source at the NTSB said they had them. It would have made no sense at all to simply report again what Ballone DeMasi said just out the blue. It would also have made no sense for Lindorff to report the new information he had without mentioning previous reports of the existence of the boxes.

The article quotes an un-named NTSB source as having the boxes.
The article quotes an named FBI source giving much less than an outright denial they exist.

Those two pieces of information are what make the story relevent. Any story about those boxes would also have to refer to Ballone and DeMasi, or else be called incomplete.

Look at how weak Lindorff's story is. He says that firefighters, which he names in the article, found three of the black boxes. A little research by him and he would have found out that Bellone was a fraud and that the only thing DeMasi may or may not have said about it was a single sentence attributted to him in a book that was written by one Gail Swanson with help from Michael Bellone and Robert Barret.

The "source" at the NTSB is qouted as making one single sentence about this and it's not clear if Lindorff himself spoke to this source, if someone else at CounterPunch did or if it was someone outside of CounterPunch who spoke to the souce and they then passed on the info to Lindorff.

The rest of Lindorff's 'proof' are qoutes from FBI and NTSB spokemen whose words, because Lindorff believes they were not firm denials, must mean the boxes were indeed found and there is a cover up.

Here's another error in Lindorff's article:

There has always been some skepticism about this assertion, particularly as two N.Y. City firefighters, Mike Bellone and Nicholas De Masi, claimed in 2004 that they had found three of the four boxes.

Bellone has never claimed that he, along with DeMasi, found three of the four black boxes. What Bellone has said was that he saw a damaged orange box with white stripes on the back of DeMasi's ATV and that he was later told by unkown FBI agents not to say anything about it.

The other error in that passage, stating that Bellone was a N.Y. City firefighter, has already been discussed in depth.