40,000 US Troops Have Deserted Since 2000 Options

[70sliberalism]

Sounds like good news. But they forgot to tell you that they enlist mental cases, gang members and criminals. For example Mr. Green who raped and killed the Iraqi girl was a mental case with a criminal record. In addition they raised the maximun age for enlistments. Like in the Vietnam war, any warm body will do in Bush's Army.

I went in in 1973/'74. They...being the armed forces, took in all you say and more,,,,but MOST were weeded out during boot camp and AIT.

Stop talking about things you know nothing about. The military sucks, but bogus opinion as fact sucks even more.

[tomhye]

I went in in 1973/'74. They...being the armed forces, took in all you say and more,,,,but MOST were weeded out during boot camp and AIT.

Stop talking about things you know nothing about. The military sucks, but bogus opinion as fact sucks even more.

Any opinion as fact sucks more! But that's only my opinion being stated as fact.

[Marine]

Marine read the WP article about recruiting and try spinning that one.

Sure David, you post a link and I'll go read it.

Until then my crystal ball is on the fritz so don't expect for me to try to figure out what you saw or try to go find it for you.

This post has been edited by Marine: Aug 16 2006, 04:22 PM

[flydangler]

Sure David, you post a link and I'll go read it

Methinks, as normal with him, you'll be waitin' a while, eh?

[noonanda]

The generals in charge are all Bush chosen hacks who just say yes.

Actually General Officers are selected by Congress so you need to blame them

Anyone with any intelligence has since retired or has been forced out. You see it is Bush's Army built to his likeing.

I Wonder how you came up with this, do you read minds??

I am currently reading FIASCO, a book about the Iraq war which describes the failures of the Bush generals and the civilians put in charge of Iraq. The results in Iraq speaks for itself.

Well just like people said about the book written by the Swift boat Vets, Dont believe everything you read. Have you been to Iraq?? Or do you beleive everything the reporters say??

Join up and go ride around until some one blows you up.

Been there, Done that, got the scar to prove it.
David you really dont have a clue about things do you. To quote a line from "a few good men" that fits this part almost perfectly ( I cut out and changed a few small parts to make it as close to perfect as I can):

Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, david sobien? I have more responsibility here than you could possibly fathom. You weep for the Insurgents, and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That those Insurgents deaths, while tragic, probably saved lives. And that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. I know deep down in places you dont talk about at parties, you don't want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!

Thats the Bush way (except for himself and his family of course). As to the quality of the recruits Mr Green speaks volumes. He would never made it into the pre Iraq Army

Again you have no clue, because the Marines Im seeing nowdays are better than I was 13 years ago.

And yes you have to be an idiot to join up for Iraq. I would tell anyone wishing a military career to at least wait until Bush is out of office and we have proper leadership.

Its Called standing up for something you believe in, maybe you dont think this country is worth it, but I do. If you dont think it is worth it, maybe someplace more sensitive to you needs will take you. I hear Iran and North Korea are beautiful this time of year.

[Marine]

Again you have no clue, because the Marines Im seeing nowdays are better than I was 13 years ago.

When I think back about the first 3 years and nine months I spent in the Corps it amazes me that they let me re-up.

I think the Marine Corps encyclopedia still has my picture from back then posted next to the definition of $hitbird.

I would not go as far as saying today's Marines are better than those from year's past though. I can remember some old timers back in the 70's which in my opinion were my definition of the perfect Marine. We still had some WW2 vets around back then Noonanda, they were the been there, done that and wouldn't take crap off no one Marines.

This post has been edited by Marine: Aug 24 2006, 08:14 AM

[noonanda]

I would not go as far as saying today's Marines are better than those from year's past though.  I can remember some old timers back in the 70's which in my opinion were my definition of the perfect Marine.  We still had some WW2 vets around back then Noonanda, they were the been there, done that and wouldn't take crap off no one Marines.

The Marines coming in now days are definately smarter than I was. Things like computers, these kids got it down LOL. Overall these kids are no better or worse than anyone who has stepped on those yellow footprints, But these newer marines have done things and been in battles that rank up there with such hallowed places as Iwo Jima and Hue City. Afganistan, Bagdad, Fallujah and Ramadi are new entries into the GBBOFB (Great Big Book Of Famous Battles LOL) and have proven that even though society has changed, there are stillyoung men and women out there that have what it takes, that will not let evil men have their way, they will not do nothing. They have done the same thing that Previous Generations have done.
Oh dont get me wrong, am I gonna take crap from some young devildog, Hell no. But I do try to listen to new ideas and see if there is a beter way to do business.

[Marine]

The Marines coming in now days are definately smarter than I was. Things like computers, these kids got it down LOL. Overall these kids are no better or worse than anyone who has stepped on those yellow footprints, But these newer marines have done things and been in battles that  rank up there with such hallowed places as Iwo Jima and Hue City. Afganistan, Bagdad, Fallujah and Ramadi are new entries into the GBBOFB (Great Big Book Of Famous Battles LOL) and have proven that even though society has changed, there are stillyoung men and women out there that have what it takes, that will not let evil men have their way, they will not do nothing. They have done the same thing that Previous Generations have done.
Oh dont get me wrong, am I gonna take crap from some young devildog, Hell no. But I do try to listen to new ideas and see if there is a beter way to do business.

Well being smarter is definitely true. Back when I started the only computers around was a glorified IBM sorting machine almost as big as a Jeep spitting out punched cards. When I retired everything in the Communications Center was computer based.

I believe the Marines who fought in Fallujah fought as tough a battle and have the same Marine spirit which was present at Bellau Woods, Guadalcanal, the frozen Chosin, or Khe Sahn. Thinking about them and the excellent job they did makes me mist up with pride.

I saw in another thread where they were stop lossing Marines, think they might reconsider taking me back? I can still hump a radio and I'd be humbled to be able to participate in the noble endeavor you just returned from.

[tomhye]

I still want to know if the rumor that all 40,000 deserters are hiding in Roswell is true.

Why doesn't the Pentagon know about this? I demand an investigation!

[david sobien]

My quote "just drive around until someone blows you up" was a response from an Army soldier as to what passes for Bush general's tactics in Iraq. Thats a stay the course action plan. Thats a dumb s..t I DONT KNOW WHAT ELSE TO DO plan. Thats being cannon fodder just for show and not accomplishing anything. Sounds like we are winning , right?

[Marine]

A call to support democracy in Iraq
By Samir Sumaida'ie, Los Angeles Times-Washington Post News Service

As the debate on Iraq rages on, we hear more and more voices that call for throwing in the towel and leaving the mess to Iraqis to sort out. A new and unexpected proponent of this argument is Thomas Friedman of The New York Times, who said in a recent column that it's time for "Plan B''. Only a few months before, he was arguing that it would be time for the United States to pack up and go only "when we don't see Iraqis taking the risk to build a progressive Iraq''.

Now, under the weight of bad news from Baghdad, he seems ready to abandon those very same brave men and women fighting valiantly to establish peace and justice in Iraq. I am an admirer of Friedman, who is generally thoughtful, well informed and supportive, but in this case he and many like him have gone dangerously off-track.

Plan B, advocated by Friedman and others, is to abandon the region to religious fanatics and Baathist terrorists. It is nothing but a declaration of defeat dressed up to look like a vision for the future.

Our enemies' strategy has never changed: creating mayhem and making Iraq ungovernable, thereby driving the Americans and their allies out and installing a Saddam Hussain look-alike to "make peace''.

Just as they kept to their strategy and adapted, we should do the same. In this context, "staying the course'' should mean being ready to adapt and learn while also standing firm for democracy and for a new vision for the country and the region. If we abandon our effort, our enemies win by default.

To argue that American withdrawal from Iraq would create a "huge problem for Iran'' is disingenuous. Iran is fairly secure within its borders. Any problems in Iraq will be for Iraqis to suffer. If there is a collapse and a civil war in Iraq, it is Iran's proxies who will do the fighting and when the dust settles these proxies will most likely end up with the oil-rich southern region of Iraq a significant strategic gain for Iran. There would also be the psychological impact of the perceived defeat for America. That would encourage all the enemies of the United States to be bolder and readier to challenge its interests everywhere. A new super-radical, geographically contiguous bloc would be born: Iran, Syria and a radicalised, totalitarian, fragmented Iraq.

Argument

As for the argument that the very presence of the foreign forces is a source of tension and that their departure would remove a prime source of violence: It may appear plausible at first glance, but it is in fact without merit. We need to understand precisely who is ready to fight to drive foreign forces out; it is only the Saddamists and the religious extremists (Al Qaida and the like).

Other Iraqis range from those who, while irritated by the foreign forces, would not go so far as to actually fight them to those people who know that there would be big problems for them and the country if those forces were withdrawn prematurely. This majority includes Sunnis as well as Shiites and Kurds.

The question that must be addressed here is what to do now in the face of the combined onslaught of insurgents, terrorists, criminal gangs and sectarian militias. A policy for success should include:

- Developing, with the Iraqi government, workable measures for reforming the security forces and making available the necessary resources to implement them.

- Supporting the government of Prime Minister Nouri Al Maliki in its efforts to disarm the militias. What is needed is a detailed multifaceted approach that encompasses political, economic and public information considerations as well as coercive measures.

- Applying maximum pressure on regional powers to refrain from undermining security in Iraq and to help stabilise it.

- Mobilising the people to oppose the extremists in their midst.

- Taking the initiative from our enemies by acting boldly and aggressively. Our posture should not be defensive. That is a recipe for defeat.

- Back here in the United States, where Iraq has become a divisive issue, working out a bipartisan understanding aimed at success; an attitude to win this war for America, Iraq and democracy. This item is for American leaders to achieve; the others are collaborative US-Iraqi endeavours.

- Is all this achievable? We know it is. Iraqis are resilient. They thirst for normality and a chance to build a future in freedom and dignity.

The US cannot escape responsibility for the current situation in Iraq. Not only would abandoning Iraq to its fate now be irresponsible, it would almost certainly lead to disintegration and dictatorship, with a high risk of a wide regional conflict. It would be catastrophic not just for Iraq but also for the United States and for world peace and stability for decades to come. On the other hand, winning this war would be one of the best gifts the US could make to the world and to its own people.




http://www.gulfnews.com/opinion/columns/region/10062213.html

[Marine]

My quote "just drive around until someone blows you up" was a response from an Army soldier as to what passes for Bush general's tactics in Iraq. Thats a stay the course action plan. Thats a dumb s..t I DONT KNOW WHAT ELSE TO DO plan. Thats being cannon fodder just for show and not accomplishing anything. Sounds like we are winning , right?

Published: 08/24/2006 12:00 AM (UAE)


Iraqi forces 'will be ready to control most provinces soon'
Reuters



Baghdad: Prime Minister Nouri Al Maliki yesterday insisted his forces would be ready to take control of most provinces within months, even though the US military has boosted troop levels in Baghdad to shore up his government.

The US Marine Corps announced on Tuesday it was calling up inactive service members to return to duty, possibly in Afghanistan and Iraq, to counter a steady decline in the number of such troops who volunteer.

"We will assume responsibility for security in one province this month and another next month. At the end of the year we will take control of most provinces," Maliki said.

Washington's strategy is to train Iraq's security forces to assume responsibility for the country's 18 provinces and pave the way for the withdrawal of US troops, but a surge in sectarian violence in recent months has frustrated that plan.

While the US military has been handing over control of more "battle space" in provinces to Iraqi forces it has been forced to send reinforcements to Baghdad to help the government take back the streets from sectarian militias and death squads.

It has boosted the number of its troops in the country from 127,000 to 135,000 as part of a major clampdown in the capital, which US officials say has already seen a sharp decline in violence in some volatile Sunni and Shiite neighbourhoods.

Al Maliki said that as Iraqi forces "gain in strength and become successful, the role of the Multi-National Forces will decrease and disappear".

The Iraqi security forces comprise 165,000 police and 129,000 soldiers, according to figures released by the US military yesterday, while 85 Iraqi army and police battalions have taken the lead in fighting insurgents across Iraq.

While Washington is keen to reduce the number of its troops, President George W. Bush insisted that talk about pulling troops out before Iraq was ready was "absolutely wrong".

[TheRestofUs]

A call to support democracy in Iraq
By Samir Sumaida'ie, Los Angeles Times-Washington Post News Service

As the debate on Iraq rages on, we hear more and more voices that call for throwing in the towel and leaving the mess to Iraqis to sort out. A new and unexpected proponent of this argument is Thomas Friedman of The New York Times, who said in a recent column that it's time for "Plan B''. Only a few months before, he was arguing that it would be time for the United States to pack up and go only "when we don't see Iraqis taking the risk to build a progressive Iraq''.

Now, under the weight of bad news from Baghdad, he seems ready to abandon those very same brave men and women fighting valiantly to establish peace and justice in Iraq. I am an admirer of Friedman, who is generally thoughtful, well informed and supportive, but in this case he and many like him have gone dangerously off-track.

Plan B, advocated by Friedman and others, is to abandon the region to religious fanatics and Baathist terrorists. It is nothing but a declaration of defeat dressed up to look like a vision for the future.

Our enemies' strategy has never changed: creating mayhem and making Iraq ungovernable, thereby driving the Americans and their allies out and installing a Saddam Hussain look-alike to "make peace''.

Just as they kept to their strategy and adapted, we should do the same. In this context, "staying the course'' should mean being ready to adapt and learn while also standing firm for democracy and for a new vision for the country and the region. If we abandon our effort, our enemies win by default.

To argue that American withdrawal from Iraq would create a "huge problem for Iran'' is disingenuous. Iran is fairly secure within its borders. Any problems in Iraq will be for Iraqis to suffer. If there is a collapse and a civil war in Iraq, it is Iran's proxies who will do the fighting and when the dust settles these proxies will most likely end up with the oil-rich southern region of Iraq a significant strategic gain for Iran. There would also be the psychological impact of the perceived defeat for America. That would encourage all the enemies of the United States to be bolder and readier to challenge its interests everywhere. A new super-radical, geographically contiguous bloc would be born: Iran, Syria and a radicalised, totalitarian, fragmented Iraq.

Argument

As for the argument that the very presence of the foreign forces is a source of tension and that their departure would remove a prime source of violence: It may appear plausible at first glance, but it is in fact without merit. We need to understand precisely who is ready to fight to drive foreign forces out; it is only the Saddamists and the religious extremists (Al Qaida and the like).

Other Iraqis range from those who, while irritated by the foreign forces, would not go so far as to actually fight them to those people who know that there would be big problems for them and the country if those forces were withdrawn prematurely. This majority includes Sunnis as well as Shiites and Kurds.

The question that must be addressed here is what to do now in the face of the combined onslaught of insurgents, terrorists, criminal gangs and sectarian militias. A policy for success should include:

- Developing, with the Iraqi government, workable measures for reforming the security forces and making available the necessary resources to implement them.

- Supporting the government of Prime Minister Nouri Al Maliki in its efforts to disarm the militias. What is needed is a detailed multifaceted approach that encompasses political, economic and public information considerations as well as coercive measures.

- Applying maximum pressure on regional powers to refrain from undermining security in Iraq and to help stabilise it.

- Mobilising the people to oppose the extremists in their midst.

- Taking the initiative from our enemies by acting boldly and aggressively. Our posture should not be defensive. That is a recipe for defeat.

- Back here in the United States, where Iraq has become a divisive issue, working out a bipartisan understanding aimed at success; an attitude to win this war for America, Iraq and democracy. This item is for American leaders to achieve; the others are collaborative US-Iraqi endeavours.

- Is all this achievable? We know it is. Iraqis are resilient. They thirst for normality and a chance to build a future in freedom and dignity.

The US cannot escape responsibility for the current situation in Iraq. Not only would abandoning Iraq to its fate now be irresponsible, it would almost certainly lead to disintegration and dictatorship, with a high risk of a wide regional conflict. It would be catastrophic not just for Iraq but also for the United States and for world peace and stability for decades to come. On the other hand, winning this war would be one of the best gifts the US could make to the world and to its own people.




http://www.gulfnews.com/opinion/columns/region/10062213.html

With all due respect. This is the biggest bunch of bull I've ever seen. We (our glorious leaders) should have thought about the coming catastrophy before invading Iraq. We then created the militias by disbanding the Iraqi Army, and left the ammo dumps unguarded so they would have plenty of weapons. We created the chaos because Bush and Cheney and Rummy went in there to steal, and it's easier to steal when there is chaos. Billions of dollars are missing, and we are never leaving. The Iraqis know this, and they know we don't plan to leave their country ever. They see the permanent military bases and the Embassy the size of the Vatican. Foreign Companies control their resources and their so-called government hides behind walls protected by the invaders.

Until they see us on our way out they will continue to undermine the "government". Polls show that 80% of them want us out! The Neo-Con belief that we can give them our "Vision of Democracy" at the point of a gun has failed, and it's they the Neo-Cons, who have failed and been defeated! The American troops did all that they were asked to do. They were never trained to referee a civil war. The Iraqis are an old people. They will work it out, and they don't need us. It's far too late to worry about our reputation! That's gone because we "elected" the worst ever president ever!

This post has been edited by TheRestofUs: Aug 24 2006, 11:41 AM

[david sobien]

I am old enough to remember "Vietnamization" of that war. That worked well did it not? The story of Iraq is too few troops, bad leadership and stay the course on all mistakes. If you read the book FISACO some military officers did the right things and then their tour of duty was up. They were replaced by the destroy it all and drive around until someone blows you up leadership. Everything that they accomplished evaporated. Todays military does not know how to fight an insurgency. Thats why we are loosing.

[noonanda]

actually we do, and we are also making the Iraqis take over the job. After all it is their countrymen, and they are doing a damn good job. The iraqi unit I was an advisor for has made leaps and bounds, they are taking the initiative and taking the fight to the enemy. And unlike what you may read and believe, I actually was there and saw with my own eyes

[david sobien]

On this forum I hear WE ARE WINNING talk. Too many people are dieing in Iraq for that to be true. The real test of wether we are winning or not is when US or Iraqi government personal can walk among the people without armored cars or in a troop formation. In other words when we do not need the GREEN ZONE anymore I will believe what you guys are saying. That was the condition for a few months after the fall of Bagdad when US soldiers could jog by themselves along the river. Then we disbanded the Iraqi Army and had too few troops to maintain order. The war was lost at that point. We pissed off people who knew how to use weapons and failed to provide security with enough US troops. This is the bad leadership provided by the Bush people that caused 2,600 deaths and 20,000 wounded of US troops. I am pissed about that. Why are all of you guys also not pissed off?

[Marine]

With all due respect. This is the biggest bunch of bull I've ever seen. We (our glorious leaders) should have thought about the coming catastrophy before invading Iraq. We then created the militias by disbanding the Iraqi Army, and left the ammo dumps unguarded so they would have plenty of weapons. We created the chaos because Bush and Cheney and Rummy went in there to steal, and it's easier to steal when there is chaos. Billions of dollars are missing, and we are never leaving. The Iraqis know this, and they know we don't plan to leave their country ever. They see the permanent military bases and the Embassy the size of the Vatican. Foreign Companies control their resources and their so-called government hides behind walls protected by the invaders.

Until they see us on our way out they will continue to undermine the "government". Polls show that 80% of them want us out! The Neo-Con belief that we can give them our "Vision of Democracy" at the point of a gun has failed, and it's they the Neo-Cons, who have failed and been defeated! The American troops did all that they were asked to do. They were never trained to referee a civil war. The Iraqis are an old people. They will work it out, and they don't need us. It's far too late to worry about our reputation! That's gone because we "elected" the worst ever president ever!

Well, this wasn't written by or for our glorius leader. It was written by an Iraqi who wants his country to succeed.

Too bad you don't care what happens to those folks.

[Marine]

Why are all of you guys also not pissed off?

Because Iraq is going to succeed David.

There are two elements required for "success" in Iraq.

The first is a central government that meets the needs of the people and to secure their support and shows enough consideration for minority rights to win the loyalty of those minorities.

The second is an effective, highly disciplined military and security establishment that gives its allegiance not to various factions in Iraqi society but only to the central Iraqi government.

Both is happening David. This is a war of liberty against tyranny, and it's a war we are winning.

This post has been edited by Marine: Aug 25 2006, 11:15 AM

[tomhye]

I'm not even close to convinced Iraq will succeed, I think that would take serious policy changes (such as getting rid of the corporate scams in the rebuilding and letting Iraqis get more jobs and business). I do agree we can't just pull out, especially from the Kurdish area.

[Marine]

Aug. 25, 2006, 6:50AM
U.S. generals: Baghdad violence curbed


By PATRICK QUINN Associated Press Writer
© 2006 The Associated Press

BAGHDAD, Iraq — A security operation was helping to curb an increase in violence in Baghdad in recent months after a surge of bombings and shootings, America's two top generals in the Middle East said. Still, there was more violence Thursday, with three car bombs in Baghdad and a series of bombings and shootings across the country that killed 16 Iraqis and two U.S. soldiers. Another U.S. soldier was killed Wednesday, the military said.

On Friday, a police officer was killed in a drive-by shooting in downtown Samarra, 60 miles north of Baghdad, police Capt. Laith Mohammed said.

U.S. authorities attributed the reported improved security situation in the city to a joint American and Iraqi operation to deal with violence in the capital. The U.S. military has said the operation, for which 12,000 troops were redeployed to Baghdad, aims at curbing mostly sectarian warfare.

Army Gen. George Casey, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, said the operation that began in early August was working.

"I think everybody has seen an improvement in the situation in Baghdad over the last weeks because of the operations of the Iraqi security forces supported by the American Army," he said. "And we're confident that we can sustain that."

Also Thursday, Gen. John Abizaid, the top U.S. commander in the Middle East, said after meeting with Iraqi President Jalal Talabani that he did not believe the country had fallen into civil war, although there is a danger that it could.

"I think Iraq's far from it. I think that there's been great progress in the security front here recently in Baghdad," he said.

Abizaid said he and Casey were "very optimistic that the situation will stabilize."

Col. Michael Shields, commander of the 172nd Stryker Brigade Combat Team, which has been helping in the Baghdad operation, said the operation was a success in the districts of Ghazaliyah in west Baghdad and Shula in the northwest of the capital.

"There was a marked decrease in murders and violence in both Shula and Ghazaliyah during this operation," he said in a statement released by the U.S. military command Friday. "We cleared over 20,000 buildings without incident, capturing several personnel, weapons and 15 caches."

The military command also said Friday that U.S. soldiers confiscated a weapons cache and arrested one suspect on Tuesday after searching a convoy of civilian vehicles. They seized 28 assault rifles, three machine guns, a sniper rifle and ammunition.

Although accurate casualty figures are not available and statistics have not been provided for violent deaths in August, an Associated Press count indicates a downwards trend. Reported deaths, however, are thought to be considerably lower than the actual number of people killed.

With one week remaining in August, the estimated number of Iraqis killed around the country was at least 605, according to an AP count. That number was about 60 percent of the estimated AP total of at 1east 1,015 killed for all of July.

But the government's count for the number of deaths in July was far higher at 3,500, including 1,500 in Baghdad alone.

Political and sectarian violence across Iraq increased after a Feb. 22 bombing of a Shiite mosque in the town of Samarra. Most of the violence has been sectarian, often involving death squads from the majority Shiites or minority Sunni Arabs.

"I think there's a large number of civilians that have been killed by various death squads," Abizaid said. "Certain militia groups have been responding in a way that's not in connection with the national government, and that situation is clearly not one that's good for Iraq."

He said the United States and its coalition partners want Iraqis to take control of security.

"Obviously, Iraqis being in control of their own future with their own national forces is what your country wants and what we want, and so we'll work together to help make that possible," he told Iraqi journalists.

____

Associated Press writers Sinan Salaheddin, Sameer N. Yacoub, Qais al-Bashir and Elena Becatoros in Baghdad contributed to this report.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/4140915.html