Every day. Remember.

Check this guy's series on this atrocity

Daily Kos :: Iraq War Grief Daily Witness (photo) Day 11 - Link

And our own "in house" daily mourning thread

target='_blank'>


http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...455&#entry96455

What atrocity?

1300 dead servicemen in the Iraq War is an atrocity, in my opinion.

Let's see:

A politician who takes a country to war against another for ideological reasons and no facts.

Putting our best and brightest in harm's way without proper equipment, intelligence or a secure supply route.

Using "precision weapons" in areas where civilians are unable to leave and causing 1000s of deaths and 100s of 1000s of injuries - " acceptable collateral damage".

Those are three atrocities right of the top of my head.

You see, my kid saw this very scene almost every day he was in the Fallujah area. AT THAT TIME, IT WAS NEVER REPORTED.

This has me throughly confused.

If I go to this site http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/12/13/101249/93 it says Bush is responsible for this under a picture of a little girl who lost her arm.

If I go to this site http://www.nomorevictims.org/ the story there says this little girl lost her arm from a missle attack in 1999.

Then I look at this link to another thread and Flydangler points out the same thing as what I wrote above. target='_blank'>


http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...455&#entry96455

What are we trying to represent in this thread?

Hmmm, very strange! You see, my son commanded a Marine rifle company in the 8th Marines that was in the thick of the fight in the latest battle of Fallujah, and he says this wasn't case there. Also interesting is that what he told me pretty much checks out with reports from viable sources of information I've researched, no matter what some of the blogs more popular with the anti-war crowd here have been saying.

I've posted what he's relayed to me here in various threads throughout the forum. If you're so sure of yourself check back through my posts and try to refute anything I've reported he told me!!!! Yup, you got it, you've been challenged!!!!!

You might also be interested to know that not all Democrats are as 100% against the Iraqi incursion as you seem to be. The party would appear to be seriously split on this, not monolithic. There seems to be very little dialogue, and even less respect between these two factions. Reading over exchanges on this site I'd say neither side is faultless in this, but for you to pretend we don't exist is just a bit bizarre. Get over it!

Have there been screwups? You bet! Are they still happening? All too often! Does somebody have to be held accountable? Definitely! But lets get it affected through facts, not rumors and hyperbole. Is that too much to ask?

Thank you! Thought maybe it was just me in my painkiller induced haze that couldn't find any true atrocities in the Kos blog.

Methinks we be dealing with more emotional rhetoric and hyperbole here. 'Twould seem the facts just aren't good enough for some!

Sir, these are fighting words, and I will not stand by and have my motherhood or my concern for our kids allow you to flaunt your obviously oversized ego wrapped ina uniform.

I also wonder what crawled up your furthest point of contact.

War is hell. We don't need it any more. Get over it.
The sooner the money is spent on AVOIDING physical mayhem and death the better to this once-moderate REPUBLICAN and now INDEPENDENT Viet Era Vet.

Go polish your boots, they are "musty".

I don't know if you have not read any previous post from Semper Fidelis but he's gave a running account related to him by his son of the happenings in Fallujah. The accounts his son provided are pretty much collaborated by main stream media so they sound pretty credible to me.

Countering what by all appearances is credible information with nothing but hyperbole and inuendo won't win you many converts except from those predisposed to conversion.

Why don't you try again and put a little meat on the plate next time.

Gee mommadona, such passion! Doesn't the Gunny's fatherhood count for anything in your eyes?

IMHO Gunny was right about Democrats not all being of one mind on Iraq. Methinks looking at target='_blank'>this thread might illustrate how some of us thought the Iraq incursion was doing the right thing, albeit maybe for the wrong reason. You may disagree with these opinions, and that's fine and definitely your right, but please attack the message and not the messenger.

If you'd like to look at the notes Gunny referred to that he has posted methinks this bunch, from most recent on back, is pretty representative:
target='_blank'>


http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...indpost&p=92737
target='_blank'>


http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...indpost&p=85724
target='_blank'>


http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...indpost&p=81635
target='_blank'>


http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...indpost&p=81626
target='_blank'>


http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...indpost&p=81616
target='_blank'>


http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...indpost&p=76951
target='_blank'>


http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...indpost&p=76098
target='_blank'>


http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...indpost&p=76087
target='_blank'>


http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...indpost&p=74672
target='_blank'>


http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...indpost&p=70645
target='_blank'>


http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...indpost&p=58687
target='_blank'>


http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...indpost&p=56486
target='_blank'>


http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...indpost&p=56450
target='_blank'>


http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...indpost&p=52413
target='_blank'>


http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...indpost&p=45506
target='_blank'>


http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...indpost&p=19920
target='_blank'>


http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...indpost&p=11068
target='_blank'>


http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...indpost&p=11055

I too have children serving in the combat zones of SW Asia, one in Iraq and one in Afghanistan. They too describe an entirely different picture than the total horror story some here would like us to believe, but also indicate the media, both American and foreign, are not doing a very good job of reporting the facts.

You seem to be accusing our military people of committing atrocities on a wide scale, but I've seen or heard nothing viable to support this. What I have seen are wild allegations frequently using misrepresented pictures and unverifiable, though sometimes easily refutable stories from obscure sources as their basis. Like the Gunny, I too take exception to this.

With that many of our troops fighting a tough insurgency in Iraq 'twouldn't surprise me if some were committed, and that would still be wrong and those responsible should be punished. In fact that has already happened. Just the same methinks they be few and far between. If you have something viable to refute this please let us know.

DULY NOTED WHERE YOU COME FROM, "TEX". Explains alot - and I know what my kid went thru when Fallujah was on hold and he was there left holding the bag with the MRE's and peebottle in tow.

Look - I don't know what you guys get out of whipping out the testosterone all the time. You come off like puffed up asses hiding behind your military service records.

I was there. Been there, done that, so don't pull the "patriot" act on me.

My kid lost friends. And he is changed in ways I would never wish on my enemy's son.

So, get off your proverbial high horse. If you are here - take note.

We are EQUAL here. None of this Alpha dog Poopbah.

You might want to check this out - I believe it says all there is to say about TEXAS.

target='_blank'>


http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...indpost&p=96510

If he was a REAL caring father, he wouldn't be glorifying war. Especially if he has been involved in one.

I would also suggest ANY Democrat who believes this is a "just war" had better rethink their orientation.

No more - I am not enabling puffed up males on a military-patriot ego bend...end of discussion with you rigid thinks, and the ignore button *click*

So much for "attack the message, not the messenger", eh? Master Guns and Gunny, methinks we were all well chastised.

'Twould appear Gunny that you "glorified war" somehow, but I don't recall seeing that anywhere. 'Tis also apparent someone feels you're not "a REAL caring father", although having spent time with your family my opinion would be much different.

Master Guns, shame on you for being a Texan!

Also be evident that because all three of us are male and have worn the uniform we're to be feeling ashamed. Just the same I don't recall any of us "hiding behind your military service records", do you?

All in all that little exercise still never gave any of us the simple answers we were asking for. Could it be no good answers exist? Is a puzzlement!

Methinks "No more - I am not enabling puffed up males on a military-patriot ego bend...end of discussion with you rigid thinks" means mommadona doesn't want to try impressing us with anymore emotional rhetoric and hyperbole, and has to facts to offer so chooses not to continue. At the same time "I would also suggest ANY Democrat who believes this is a "just war" had better rethink their orientation" means if we don't think like her we're not pure enough to remain Democrats, eh?

Gee, ask for something to back up the hyperbole and somehow more hyperbole is suspose to satisfy the request.

Then, because I'm from Tyler Texas I'm some how evil. Maybe I should have retired to my wife's hometown of Black River Falls, Wisconsin to avoid the stigma of being a Texan.

What's a Poopbah?

It doesn't bother me what anyone says about Texas, I picked Texas so I don't have to pay State Income Tax and for the warm weather. I lived all over the world in the thirty years I was in the Marines, when somebody asks me where I'm from it's just the USA.

Hi Marine -

Check out my last post in "Welcome Aboard Thread"... Maybe it will brighten your day!

mtnmagic

Master Guns and Gunny, it sound to me like she doesnt want to face the truth. If she believed what she said she would have provided facts. Emotional and rhetorical statements, but not much in the way of fact other than to say "My child said this or that happened everyday" must mean it is 100 % true. sounds kind of like a sea story to me.

She and I can have all the differences in the world and there's no problem with her expressing that fact. That's her right and it would never bother me. Just the same if she, or anybody else that thinks that way doesn't consider the Democrat Party big enough for all of us with varying points of view then they better look for a new place to go. This has been my party for almost 50 years and I'm not going anyplace now!

When she decided to make this something personal and ugly then she lost my respect. I'm not going to say anything more because it would probably just be something I'd regret later.




P L O N K ! ! ! ! !

I don't know why I'm wading into this quagmire, but I am.
1. I have no connections to the fighting in Fallujah directly, all my 'contacts' on the other side of Bagdhad.
2. I have no military service background, I'm a history teacher married to an ex-USAF E4.
3. I'm not from Texas or BRF (but I've been there many times, nice rest stop).

Could it be that we're looking at different times of service in Fallujah or different areas? Our Wisconsin media has described the town as the size of Milwaukee (both area and population). I can see how something as Mommadonna describes could have happened without another unit across town knowing or witnessing it....

I also agree with Doc, Gunny and my near-namesake ~da that having read the accounts coming from Marine are accurate. War is messy. The truth gets confused. There is no one single truth. I'm sorry that two people who's posts I have come to enjoy are at such odds with each other, but I can see since it envolves your children how it became so heated so fast. I just hope this mess is done before my two get old enough to get involved.

I did not realize that I had all of this testosterone...but I guess my "origins" explain why I fell that allowing Saddam Hussein to continue to kill people en masse, with up to 50,000 people found in mass graves was not the LIBERAL and SOCIAL JUSTICE VALUES I could subscribe to. IF Saddam had the ability to use ANY weapons he could get his hands on, he would have used them.

Attacking someone's "fatherhood" or my "motherhood" for being proud that my son or cousin or brother will serve a tour of duty in Iraq is ad hominem. You have a right to your opinions, but not to force them on anyone else or accuse them of being "less" than you because they believe in something that you do not.

As for being proud of service in a war...weren't WE the ones calling people chickenhawks for not going to Vietnam?

Weren't we the ones that had the "band of brothers" and constant harping about how we were so proud of Kerry because he served in Vietnam (even though most of the country believed it was wrong at the time)?

Weren't we the ones that cried foul when the Republicans tried to say that Kerry shot a teenager in the back?

Didn't the Democrats talk endlessly about Wes Clark being a General and needing a General on our side, and about him having won the war in Kosovo (largely by bombing the crap out of Belgrade and Kosovo which killed a lot of people, not to mention separating one part of the city from the other, and taking out all of their communications, television, radio ect...AND we never repaired it or sent in reconstruction).

Didn't we partly select John Kerry to run against Bush because we thought his service in Vietnam would help him win against a guy who had been AWOL?

Now, all of the sudden, military service is some kind of personality disorder, and all our soldiers are committing "atrocities" over there. Their killing innocent people, but some of these pictures aren't from Iraq at all, and MANY of them are not people the US killed, but instead pictures of people Saddam killed, or terrorists killed. Anyone that finds out that the pictures aren't real is called names?

I'm sure there is little else that is more important to you than your kids, but don't let that fear turn into disdain for vet's or turn on those who believe that we did the right thing. That's just not right and I AM a mother of a son who will likely go to Iraq.

You make Rush Limbaugh Proud, Marine.

I posted the picture initially to honor every child who's giving his/her body IN OUR NAMES AGAINST AT LEAST MY BELIEFS.

MAYbe you can "get" that part of it?

Pubah: Usually a male who INSISTS on bullying the pulpit and will ALWAYS have the last word (usually because they have iron butts and everyone else just walks away rolling their eye).....Yep, let me see.....1 -2 -*click

I don't have to prove a damn thing to you. Who the hell are you to question me.

Nothing like fighting "amongst" ourselves.....

Oh, and as far as your macho little "war" quote....that explains your whole reason for posting at all.

You glorify it. You need it for your own persona.

I didn't! What was it really a picture of?

There was a vague caption ("Every day. Remember."), but no linked story to identify what this picture actually represented, It comes from Reuters (direct link is to http://wwwi.reuters.com/images/mdf794020.jpg) but much as I looked around that whole site could find no story to go with it. I tried following the link to the Daily Kos :: Iraq War Grief Daily Witness (photo) Day 11 in post #2 in this thread and eventually got to the site (in a round about journey). It had the same picture, again with nothing to indicate what it was of and apparently in reference to your initial post here. How convoluted is that?

So methinks the bottom line is we got us a picture that could just as readily be of Army combat medic field training at Ft Sam Houston as anything, a followup note referring to "this atrocity" and linking to a page noting your note as well as claiming Bush was responsible for a little Iraqi girl's injuries that happened almost a year before he took office, a simple question by me asking for clarification and no real answer.

We can probably just ignore everything else that transpired, it really did or said nothing that established any common ground or displayed any common sense. Does anyone else see anything wrong with this scenario?

And the Mortars red glare.....

things are hot in here.

I'd like to make a suggestions if I may.

Can we keep the personal attacks to a minimum.
These attacks don't add much in the way of discussion.....you'll find the tend to make things spiral out of control.

A individual persons testoserone or motherhood have little to do with Iraq and the situation at hand or what got us there or what can get us out.

And I would hope that NO one on this board is looking to make Rush Limbaugh proud.... All though I'm sure seeing otherwise polite moderates brake out in heated attack is making him chuckle.

This has been your sensitivety training for the day. Fall out for a ten minute break. When you return we'll continue our 12 hour block of instruction on polishing boots and other miscelleanious parade gear.

Doc... For this statement I give you back the award you gave me the other day; It was a bit to shiny any way, but it does hold water.

I hope your feeling better, I'm sure the girlscout party helped cheer you up!

Thanks, but we'll just give you the one below. 'Twould seem no one else will be needing it for quite a while and it got badly tarnished this year, so it ain't gonna ever be quite as shiny ever again.

may i point out the possibility of BOTH accounts being true in the relevant unit???

may i???

personally i believe and have read information and seen docs that suggest that A LOT OF BS DOES HAPPEN (stealing, murders, denigrating etcetcetc) - and that there are people in command structures that either like it or don't care.

personally, i also believe, have read, seen info that suggests that, UNBELIEVABLE as it is, THERE SEEM TO BE SOME PEOPLE WHO DO CARE ABOUT IRAQIS (as a _human_ in need), some lt col ryan organizing food aid to iraqi children coming to mind...

it is not illogical for different units behave differently, when they have different command quality, training, attitudes, people...

Sure, but troops, even from different services, get the word, through scuttlebutt if nothing else, about what's going on in other fronts of the same battle. The differences in these accounts are so great that I seriously doubt both could be true.

I think you'll also find that when any of our military actually commit atrocities it is most often others of our military that first report it. Hiding atrocities is just not the way our men and women in the armed forces conduct themselves.

umm... seeing us troops discussing a theft(s) in a doc vs a positive doc (neither from faux news)...

well, isn't this a GOOD thing there are people in us army/ng that have their hearts/minds/brain in a right place?

i think it a good thing ethics have found the way in since vietnam.
i don't think you'd like to be mixed up with a north-korean (based on written stuff, obviously... ; )

You forgot the Marines and Navy, both of whom are also there in significant numbers. Read through the links to some of Gunny's posts about his son's reports from the combat zones (see target='_blank'>this note) for a better idea of where their hearts and minds really are. After reading that tell me you think these young military folks are also committing the atrocities some on this site want you to believe they are. Almost all of us in Vietnam had ethics. It was an entirely different type of war from anything we'd engaged in before or since. There were things done that would be considered atrocities, but methinks you had to experience the place, people, culture and realities they all brought into play to understand it. I spent three abbreviated tours there so I know how difficult it has to be for someone to understand this.

IMHO many, including the young John Kerry, seriously overstated the wrongs our people were responsible for in Vietnam. At the same time they seemed not to try to help people understand what it was like over there. This last is not meant as a negative statement, I know how difficult it is to explain to others how different and difficult Vietnam was. Just the same the fact that I never saw any attempt to do so was very disappointing. Hope you understand what I'm trying to get across here.

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're trying to say here, but then I'm just a dumb grunt.

I DO have to concure with Doc flydangler's statement about our troops hearts and minds, as well as ethics in the military.

p.s. Top, if I was to move to Texas do you think I might be more liked here?

Not a chance Gunny.

Revealing you are from Texas is Prima Facie evidence of being a right wing, low brow neanderthal, knukle dragging, reguglican voting, moron.

You already got one strike against you letting em know you were career military, why'd you want two?

Methinks if you folks would just start quoting from Air America radio and change your avatars everything would get better.

Why not use something like this Devil dog?

I'm not sure if anyone here is interested, but if you're wondering what either a real atrocity or a viable source is looking here might provide a clue.