I want to thank you people of conscience who are participating is these discussions, I would also like to thank you folks that work to keep this site sane. It is our ability to investigate the issues of our day and have an open discussion that separates us from the neocons and the radical right, who do not allow open discussions within their community. Nixon taught us that when the right wants to discourage any dissent, they just refuse to allow the discussion to become a public forum, the Bushies do the same thing, they will stop at nothing in an effort to keep ideals they don’t care for out of the national discussion.
Again I can not tell you how important it is to be able to have these talks without censorship, you are all better Americans for not allowing the right to influence your thinking, and in my opinion you are all patriots because you care.
God Bless America, PEACE

Have no doubt; the folks on the other side of the fence are having similar discussions about the left wing nuts.. on this board and others...

They have done a tremendously effective job labeling the Democrats as the left wing loonies....

They do not however have a monopoly on spin.

All information is suspect from the right or left, the spin rotates in both directions.

Methinks you may have just won the "Best Statement Of The Day" award!

errr... that reward won't fit in my wallet or in the ruck but it might make for a nice water bowl to rinse the razor and wash my face.

Ever since that did away with the steel pot, I've been looking for a valid replacement..... (Kelvar just ain't the same).

Does it come in woodland or desert camo?

Methinks the Kevlar ain't none too good for cooking stew either, eh?
Methinks you were trying to say something meaningful there, but all your rhetoric and hyperbole seemed to get in the way. Wanna try it again without all the extra crappola?

Understand your anger. I was pissed as all get out that my horse lost... reflecting back the message wasn't clear enough. You can't please everyone on everything all the time..... I think democrats maybe tried to hard to please everyone.

So I'm not moving to Canada, I'm committed to this country come hell or high water. The CInC was elected by the people.... Much of the spin and hyperbowl generated is about important stuff in life..... (taxes, social security, the environment, the economy, foriegn policy);

They are NOT IMPORTANT to LIVING life....The CInC does not sit down to supper with me, he ain't walking the dog, reading to junior, standing over me while I type, cleaning the sh1tter, singing with me at church, visiting sick relatives, rotating my tires, changing my oil, weeding the garden or taken my wife out on a Saturday night. What keeps me going is the Pittsburgh Steelers and my family. Don't get me wrong all those things on the first list are Important.... I guess its a matter of balance.

Once you get your breath back use your anger to effect change friend.

SFC White

Sure, if you stop saying "Methinks"....

Bush cares about one person only.

Bush.

I served under 6 different Presidents, it never matter to me that much who the President was. I was going to do my job the best I could who ever was President.

I voted for Al Gore four years ago and I got over it that Al Gore lost. George Bush is President and griping don't do a thing to change that.

Spin or no spin, you can get over that George Bush won or you can gripe about it and griping about it doesn't change a thing; doesn't make any difference to me.

Master Guns, you be so nice and polite all the time, methinks you might be a closet Canadian too, eh? Or maybe it's just some of your wife's good manners rubbin' off on you.

Note to readyinTX: I talk the way I talk and write the same way too. Methinks I'd never ask you not to speak Texican, don't you want to show me the same courtesy?

We hung in their through Nixon, and we got the last laugh, sure not going to give up now, the fight is getting very interesting, I believe the middle Americans will win overall, I am worried about the toll it will take overall

The only good thing I can say about Nixon is my orders to report to CG 3rd MarDiv got cancelled about two weeks before I was due to report to that beautiful garden spot and health spa in SE Asia called Vietnam.

Although Nixon needed and had to go there wasn't nothing funny about what it put this country through.

I don't know if it was a backlash over Vietnam, a general dislike for the military, or some other reason unknown to me during the mid to late 70s. Congress wouldn't vote the money for planes to fly or for ships to put to sea; spare parts for repairs couldn't be had no matter how bad they were need. I was in communications and the equipment I had to make do with was worn out.

United States foreign policy was blunted by the aftermath of Vietnam until the first Gulf war. Everyone else in the world thought give the Americans a few casualties and they will cave in. We didn't do anything to disprove that notion either, we shouldn't have put the Marines into Beruit. When we ran from Beruit after the barracks bombing we reinforced that we didn't have the guts to stick it out. The presumption Saddam made was he could take Kuwait and nobody would have the guts to do anything about it.

I don't think the public had confidence in the military again until after the first Gulf war. The United States military fought the war it was trained to fight and exceled.

People will argue the Iraq war is one we should not have got into, that Iraq had nothing to do with Al Queada or terrorism. Maybe with 20/20 hindsight that might be true.

Virtually every intelligence agency in the world believed Saddam had WMD before the USA invaded, reading the debriefing of Saddam's Generals they thought Iraq had available WMDs if they were invaded, Saddam didn't do anything to dissuade anyone from believing he had WMDs, and Saddam had actually previously used WMDs against the Iranians and the Kurds.

Saddam gamed everyone about WMDs, I think for a couple of reasons; because he thought it would make him look more important in the Arab world and he thought if his neighbors found out he didn't have WMDs anymore they would do to him what he wanted to do to them.

When it comes to the security of the United States I don't like taking chances. We, like just about everybody else in the world, believed Saddam was developing or had all kinds of nasty things to kill people. Saddam didn't like the USA because we kicked his b*tt out of Kuwait, we couldn't get any assurance out of Iraq like we could out of Pakistan who we know has atomic weapons.

Maybe we didn't wait long enough to make sure Saddam didn't have WMDs. But how would have everyone felt about George Bush if while he was waiting to make sure that Saddam had an atom bomb, he really did, passed it off to OBL, and it got detonated in New York harbor? With 20/20 hindsight we can be sure but before we invade Iraq it was the popular opinion Saddam had WMDs and was working to get a nuclear weapon.

To invade Iraq was to err on the side of protecting the United States. I believe that George Bush didn't lie, I know there are those of you who don't but respect my opinion.

The war in Iraq is in a stage in which the United States military doesn't excel, fighting an insurgency. Like it or not we got to see it through. If we don't see the war in Iraq through the next 9/11 will really hurt.

Pick my thesis apart but be respectful. I didn't start off to write something this long but it gets how I feel about it out there.

Thanks for the thesis Top

There was a big lingering question about WMD... Since we were the ones that helped set him up with them. We knew that they HAD them, and KNEW how to make them.

There were a few things that troubled me out of the gate prior to the war.

1. While there was a question that he may have had WMD (chem and Bio agents NOT NUKES I might add); these weapons require delivery mechanisms. Nearly all the intel on the delivery mechanisms was that they had little to none. the scuds they did have that were destroyed prior to the invasion.

2. Missing stockpiles from the 80's. was the one of Powell's main arguments to the UN. That's ten plus years of sitting in an underground bunker, Now while most that stuff is pretty nasty.... it does not last for ever. Chemical and Bio agents will vary and I'll have to refer to some Chem books. Most of that stuff would be DET by this time.

3. While we are on the topic of Powell's argument to the UN; while it was frigtnening to here what a vile of Antrax could do. I was amazed at how little evidence they actually had. I wanted to beleive we had a good reason for going to war after hearing his arguement.. I was left feeling.. Thats it? thats all we got?

4. So OK we went to war. KNOWING that we are going it we must have a PLAN right? We would never go into a country with out a game plan to SECURE democracy. Secure government buildings, MUNITION facilities, Hospitals, Power installations, sewage treatment facilities. Lets not forget sending the Iraqi soldiers on their marry way without their pay. For this flawless execution our President is giving out Medals????

5. Your last statement I agree with "like it or not... we're there now we gotta find the leaders in Iraq and support them.... but the jury is out on whether spending all this energy in Iraq is gonna pay off on the "War on Terrorism".

Thanks for the reply, on point number one I didn't think OBL would have been interested in a conventional delivery system. A scud coming across the Atlantic on the deck of a freightor would have been a dead give away somebody was up to no good. I really worried about them getting a crop duster, loading it's tanks with VX or anthrax and dusting a big city. I live out in farm country and the air jockeys who have ag cats park them in their driveways so it wouldn't be hard to get one.

Point two, I worked in communications and just know the basics on NBC. During the Gulf war it was a sincerly held belief that Saddam was going to gas the Marines while the Marines held him by his nose and the Army ran around behind to kick him in the a$$. I spent some sleepless nights worried about my people. When they started talking about going into Iraq I know that was my main concern and probably a carry over of the anxiety I felt from the first conflict.

Point three, maybe I was paranoid but I believed Saddam was capable of having the stuff. I figured like a lot of other people when we got into Iraq the evidence would be forthcoming. I'll tell you I'm both glad and disappointed they didn't find anything; glad because if he had it he would have used it on the American troops and disappointed because it made American intelligence look stupid.

Point four, George Bush screwed up. The United States military did it's job taking Iraq, the civilian authorities made no plan for winning Iraq.

I'll finish latter, the wife wants me to go out and feed the chickens since its too cold for her this morning.

I'll try to finish up; Point four, I don't think the military is good at or likes playing policeman. If we have to do that function I think there ought to be an overwhelming force available to come down hard on anyone not wanting to keep the peace. And the overwhelming force should stay only long enough to get real national policemen trained. As far as sending the Iraqi soldiers on their marry way without pay, we didn't pay the Wehrmach at the end of WW2. We did however have enough soldiers on the ground in Germany to control things.

Point five, if we don't spend the energy in Iraq; the war on terror will fail. We ran from Beiruit, we ran from Somalia, if we run from Iraq it will embolden people like OBL that they can defeat America. A lot of these people were in Afghanistan kicking out the Russians. They want to forget that if the United States hadn't armed them with weapons designed to take on the Soviet military they wouldn't have won in Afghanistan. The Muhajadeen was defeated until the USA gave them something capable of dealing effectivly with attack helicoptor tactics. These terrorist people believe they have already defeated one superpower, why shouldn't they think they can beat us?

The terrorists only hope to defeat the United States is to make the American public sick of war. If we get sick of the war on terror and quit, look for the war to come back to our shores.

readyinTX
Great post - for sure! The "SHRUB" is really putting th SHAFT to everybody here in the U.S. of A. And it seems that some here buy into the little CHICKENHAWKS theory of what is good for them. LOL Real American Patriots readyinTX, aren't they? LOL readyinTX here is a good link to see what the "SHRUB" and his gang of Chickenhawks are costing the people of this land. http://costofwar.com/ Take Care and keep the faith readyinTX. Buy a whole lot of "SUPPORT THE TROOPS" (Made in China) Ribbons for that loot the SHRUB is blowing for the Patriots (LOL) in their own mind, to hang on their Rigs!

I used to tell people,

Dick Nixon before he Dick's you!

Yeah, it's too bad Hubert Humphrey didn't win in 1968, it would have saved our country a lot of grief. I figured all the scandals the republicans got them selves into in the early 70's they would never win the Whitehouse again.

I though Jimmy Carter was going to be the most wonderful democrat since Woodrow Wilson to be President, they were real similar in the way they thought about things. Unfortunenately the world got to complex for a man like Jimmy Carter.

I voted for Carter both times he ran but in all honesty it didn't bother me to see him not re-elected. Carter just seemed too concerned with being a good and decent man to be effective dealing with people who weren't good and decent.

Marine
Agree with your above post Marine all the way to the bank. You are 100% on the money about The Peanut Man. He was and still is one decent and good person. And I also agree that that combination does not fair well with any President. Hang Tough Marine! (Don't need a link for your above post Bro' - you said it all)

1)LOL... A scud on frieghter now thats a laugh! There is just as much danger as Nuke material getting here from Russia.
Chem and bio agents do not transport well which is why Suddam built mobile labs close to the battlefield (or where ever he intended to employ em).
It'd Easier to make it in your neighbors basement and carry it over to the cropduster. So I'd keep an eye on tatooed skin head nazis down the street if I were you.

4)The military better start doing abetter job at being a policeman cause the cold war is over.. and the North Koreans don't have the gas to get across the boarder.

5) The war on terror is one titles that confuses me... it lacks clarity. What is the scope? Iraq? Afghanistan? All terrorists? Armed rebels everywhere? Rwanda? Sudan? Northern Ireland? Ski Lanka?

As a project manager or a platoon sgt the first thing I do and continue to do throughout a "mission" is define the scope of the operation.

The client (in this case Iraq) has got to want what ever I'm building whether it be democracy or a wigdet maker and they have to know what the cost is... otherwise what is the point. We have yet to see the Iraqis step up... or be provided an environment that the they can step up to take over..and realize the full cost.

The chuckle heads in five sided building and beyond needed to do this from the onset and still need to.... they got four more years to get it right.

My bet is on a break up of the legacy British protectorate into three seperate autonomous regions.... A radical Sunni region aligned with Syria, A Fundamentalist Shite region aligned with Iran and a moderate Kurdish region. three to six years.

Say any one want to buy a few tickets for an Inaguration ball? I'm saving my dress blues for a special occasion.

Well, can not top the 6 Prez's but served under one. Think you all heard of LBJ. Well some challenge to this Prez's credibility and credentials by some did change a lot for this country if I remember. So some time griping and speaking ones mind does have an effect. Then came Tricky Dick, and a lot of Protesting went on over his BS while in the "White Hootch". And, the Trickster resigned! So, it does pay to speak your mind and as a group it is even heard more. So think it is time to "spin" and get vocal in numbers on the "SHRUB", even though he is "King George" to some. LOL And think it would make a difference to many - maybe not to the above person that left the post, but to many concerned Americans that believe in Freedom.

War blows $60bn hole in US plan for military
From Tim Reid and Roland Watson in Washington




THE cost of the Iraq war has forced Donald Rumsfeld to slash plans for a high-tech military of the future in order to focus on the more mundane and urgent task of providing his present-day US Army with tanks and body armour.
The rising cost of missions in Iraq and Afghanistan, combined with a record US budget deficit, has forced the US Defence Secretary to make nearly $60 billion (£31.8 billion) in cuts to advanced weapons programmes for the US Air Force and US Navy, and even to President Bush’s cherished missile defence programme, while increasing US Army spending.



An internal defence budget proposal for 2006 recommends that the cuts take place over six years. The programmes most affected are for fighter aircraft and new warships, once seen by Mr Rumsfeld as the future of the American military. They include the next generation of nuclear submarines, a stealth navy destroyer and an advanced air force fighter jet.

In contrast, increases for ground forces, which he had hoped would become less relevant for the 21st-century US military, are to soak up $25 billion more Pentagon spending than had been anticipated. Pentagon officials said that the shift had been forced on them by the military costs of Iraq and Afghanistan, which are running at $5 billion a month.

Mr Bush will shortly ask Congress for another emergency budget supplemental for Iraq of around $80 billion. That will take the total spending so far on the war and fighting the insurgency to well over $200 billion.

That was a figure that Larry Lindsey, Mr Bush’s former economic aide, predicted that the war would cost, although he was forced to backtrack and was fired shortly afterwards.

The Administration, though, is now apparently recognising that the $450 billion budget deficit and the unknown costs of what lies ahead in Iraq mean that it has to make tough decisions even with the defence budget.

Until now, Mr Bush has granted the Pentagon giant budget increases akin to the arms build-up under President Reagan in the early 1980s. Pentagon spending has risen 41 per cent in the past four years to $425 billion this year.

Military analysts said that this year’s 26-page proposed budget, approved by Paul Wolfowitz, Mr Rumsfeld’s deputy, on December 23, could mark the end of Mr Bush’s military build-up. The scale of the proposed cuts, which require congressional approval, was ordered by the White House Office of Management and Budget, which last month ordered the Pentagon to cut its 2006 defence request.

The cuts will see one of the navy’s 12 aircraft carriers retired. Amphibious landing ships — once regarded by Mr Rumsfeld as one of the key components of the leaner, faster, more agile military that he was advocating even before the September 11 attacks — will be heavily scaled back, saving $950 million.

The cuts will mean a sharp reduction in the air force’s FA22 fighter programme, shrinking it from 277 aircraft to 180, a saving of $10.5 billion.

Some $6 billion of the cuts will come in the first year.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,11...1427668,00.html

Wonder what the "SHRUB" Chickenhawk brigade will come up with to fleece the American taxpayer to pay for their War Toys? King Georgey wants to go down as the War Prez and is going to do so with any means possible unless the American People wake the he_l up and stop this lunatic.

Marine


To me it was important to finish the business in Afghanistan before jumping into Iraq. No matter how you put it, Bush jumped into Iraq without planning or supplying our troops proper protective equipment that could have saved lives. I'll agree, Saddam himself wanted the world to believe he had WMDs. If our intelligence was so flawed that no one could determine if Saddam had WMDs or not, shouldn't Bush have given the Inspectors more time to do their job? I respect your opinion but I also respect every life that has been lost in Iraq over a president jumping on panic into a war without clear evidence of harm that could or could not harm this country. Also, Bush did everything possible to stop the 9/11 Investigations. Wouldn't one think Bush would want to know where and why our intelligence agencies failed? I don't buy what Bush puts out, now or ever. There have been too many lies coming from this Administration.

Mason50
Some strong points made in your post Mason - for sure. You said Suddam himself wanted the world to believe he had WMD. Maybe so and the "SHRUB" not only wants you and me to believe he has intelligence but wants the world to believe it as well. (tough task and "Hard Work") - Good post Mason - watch out for the babblin' drunk and high Nam Vet REMF'S in here--LOL Heard they have Rabies! LOL ---Hang Tough Mason!