Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Is healthcare a right, a responsibility or a privilege?
Common Ground Common Sense > Issues that Affect Our Lives > Health Care
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13
Confederacy Of Dunces
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Nov 23 2008, 01:12 PM) *
QUOTE(DWB04 @ Nov 23 2008, 12:08 PM) *
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Nov 23 2008, 06:08 AM) *

WHEN EVERYBODY IS MADE TO PAY A HEALTH INSURANCE PREMIUM, THEN THE PROFITS OF THE INSURANCE CONMPANIES WILL SKYROCKET ....

Nothing else will change ...

Under Obama, you are going to have to fork over $2500 for a PROMISSORY NOTE that says you are now entitled to healthcare ...

That PROMISSORY NOTE won't give you healthcare ...

It will relieve you of the burden of having to figure out what else you might have done with that $2500 is all ...

And so ...

That's not necessarily true Liv.


"Obama health plan to cost $75 billion: analysis"

By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Editor

12 NOVEMBER 2008

WASHINGTON (Reuters) – President-elect Barack Obama's plans to overhaul the U.S. healthcare system would cost the federal government $75 billion the first year but would provide health insurance for 95 percent of Americans, consulting firm PriceWaterhouseCoopers said on Wednesday.

This works out to about $2,500 per newly insured person, the firm said in a report.

"The plan would increase to $1 trillion cumulatively by 2018 or approximately $130 billion per year," the report said.

While the plan would extend health insurance to two-thirds of the 47 million people who currently lack it, the overhaul may worsen some problems, such as a shortage of primary care doctors, the analysis found.

"Unless costs are cut, growing health care costs will increase the costs of Obama's plan dramatically over time and reduce the effectiveness of mandates."

"This could make the federal costs unsustainably high," the report said.


"Because of the deficit and financial crisis, there's unlikely to be any new federal money available, so health reform may require reallocation of dollars already in the health system."
Unless costs are cut,..


then I guess we'll be cutting costs if we are not all a bunch of simpletons deserving to be treated with disrespect by those in power.
NiteOwl

Government does not have to be the provider, but it is governmnent job to be the regulator.

It should be exceedingly clear to many here who support the "free market" that free market capitalism does not work. It is easy for those who have employer provided coverage and benefits to simply say that everyone should be "responsible"... while neglecting a few minor points. Fewer employers are providing such benefits, more employers are cutting back on such benefits, competition against other nations where industry isn't burdened with such costs will make it ever more difficult for American companies to compete, fewer people will be covered, premuims will creep (or skyrocket) ever higher and only the fortunate few will be covered.

For those of you who are preaching responsibility, while being covered by your employer, what would you do if all of a sudden your employer terminated their health insurance coverage and your family coverage started costing you $ 750 a month. What would you do if you couldn't afford it ? Would you see it as a problem for all of society or merely just another that you can't afford. Would you see it as a problem when you have to make choices to pay insurance or sell your house because you can't afford your mortgage or can't send your kids to college ? Would you see it as a problem when you have a catastrophic illness which threaten to wipe your your savings, your assets and potentially your retirement ?

I don't believe your philosophy would be quite the same if you were on the other side of the fence.

The only answer is drastic change in the nature of the healthcare / insurance system to assure that coverage is widely available and affordable to all.

rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Nov 23 2008, 03:25 PM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Nov 23 2008, 09:41 AM) *
The Medicare system has a lot of corruption and incompetence but not as much as the Federal Government in general.

It is still more effective and efficient in delivering services than the private sector.

Medicare is the BIGGEST BOONDOGGLE in the world up here where I am, rla ...

It is destroying older folks on a fixed income through county property tax burden handed down to us by the federal government and the state government ....

It is driving our county property taxes up by leaps and bounds up here, rla ....

And we get no benefit from it ...

We're getting economically destoyed by it, instead ...

The federal government does not administer medicaid in NYS, rla ....

The State of New York does, through the private sector up here, and the politically-powerful HEALTHCARE UNION up here ......

And it dumps the exorbitant cost on us property tax payers ...

And so ...


Down here in Ar. I am elgible for Medicare but since I get better coverage from my wife's insurance
at work, I don't use it. I am glad it is available to the people who need it.
Livyjr
QUOTE(NiteOwl @ Nov 23 2008, 12:06 PM) *
I'm not making this stuff up.

I never think that you are just making stuff up in here, NiteOwl, I merely meant to say that location and latitude affect our perception and attitudes, is all ...

It is just one elephant, but we are not all seeing it from the same vantage point is all, so it looks like many different types of beast when we start to describe the part we are seeing to each other ...

And so ...
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Nov 23 2008, 04:45 PM) *
QUOTE(NiteOwl @ Nov 23 2008, 12:06 PM) *
I'm not making this stuff up.

I never think that you are just making stuff up in here, NiteOwl, I merely meant to say that location and latitude affect our perception and attitudes, is all ...

It is just one elephant, but we are not all seeing it from the same vantage point is all, so it looks like many different types of beast when we start to describe the part we are seeing to each other ...

And so ...

Thus the need for systematic systems analysis...
amy
QUOTE(Beamer @ Nov 23 2008, 04:03 PM) *
QUOTE(piccadilly @ Nov 23 2008, 12:47 PM) *
QUOTE(Beamer @ Nov 23 2008, 03:13 PM) *
I'm not sure what you meant by your ostracism comment, but I do find myself not in total agreement with liberals or conservatives.

Are you suggesting you find yourself agreeing more with libertarians ?
I just find reading your POVs to be sometimes a rather ... chilling ... experience.
Your predisposition to exclude people from what appears to be your world, before denying them the same comfort on the grounds that they aren't perfect, just doesn't match my own representation of human society, that will never match the simplicity, perfectness and predictibility of an ant farm.
It is possible though that for some reason I systmatically misread you and that I'm totally mistaken on this point.
QUOTE
I think eating habits have changed over time. We have evolved from hunter gatherers to dependent on agriculture. I think that change itself has been damaging to the health of human beings.

Could you tell how damaging it has or might have been ?



I think the hunter-gatherer man ate food more beneficial to his natural state and physiology. So, he was leaner and healthier. But, the lifestyle was more conducive to conflict and war and infectious disease. Agriculture caused a decline in height, thinner bones, more cavity-prone teeth and more chronic disease. However, man cooperated more and lived longer, albeit less healthily.


Modern people are capable of eating the foods that are healthiest for their bodies and avoiding foods that do harm. And of course, we can exercise. Convincing people to do this is another matter.
Livyjr
QUOTE(DWB04 @ Nov 23 2008, 12:08 PM) *
There are many universal healthcare models out there.

So, it remains to be seen which one we'd settle for that addresses our healthcare needs, but there are models that standardize the price of goods and services and that prevent certain industries, like insurance companies or hospitals or drug companies from taking a profit.

I don't know who your "WE" is there, DWB04, when you say "WHICH ONE WE'D SETTLE FOR" ...

Are you talking the people of Hawaii for implementation in Hawaii?

Or are you talking the democrat party or Obama as "WE"?

Either way, the healthcare model that I want for NYS is the one we presently have in OUR NYS Public Health Law ....

I don't want Barack Obama coming up here and screwing around with what we already have ....

It is not his function as American president to do so ...

And so ...

As to the comprehensive and forward-looking, flexible nature of OUR state health plan here in upstate NYS, outside of NYC, I refer you to section 602 of the New York State Public Health Law, as follows:

S 602. Municipal public health services plan.

1. Every municipality shall biennially, on such dates as may be fixed by the commissioner, submit to the commissioner for his approval a public health services plan.

2. The plan shall include at least the following:

(a) an estimate and description of the immediate and long term needs for public health services in the municipality, particularly those services that are needed to promote public health and prevent illness;

(b) a statement and description of the public health objectives which the municipality intends to achieve, including how the public health services funded by this title will maintain and improve the health status of its residents, maintain and improve the accessibility and quality of health care, and assist in containing the costs of the health care system;

© a description of the programs for achieving those goals;

(d) a projected two-year plan of expenditures necessary to implement the programs;

(e) a general description of the availability of health services;


end quotes

What weaknesses do you see in there?

What do you see missing?

Especially in this following language from that legislation:

... how the public health services funded by this title will maintain and improve the health status of its residents, maintain and improve the accessibility and quality of health care, and assist in containing the costs of the health care system ....

end quotes

Isn't that the essence of what you have been talking about in here?

*MAINTAIN AND IMPROVE HEALTH STATUS OF RESIDENTS

*MAINTAIN AND IMPROVE ACCESSIBILITY AND QUALITY OF HEALTH CARE

*ASSIST IN CONTAINING COSTS OF THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM

Isn't that a guarantee to the citizens of this state from the "state" about OUR healthcare?

Or am I still missing something in here?

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(piccadilly @ Nov 23 2008, 12:11 PM) *
You'd have plenty of what you see in China and on the internet e-commerce market these days ... heavy discounts on junk, fraudulous product reviews and recommendations, products dangerous for people's health, zillions of business pulling "get rich real fast" schemes before disappearing in thin air, making themselves impossible to address reclamations and damage claims.

Why go all the way to China for that, piccadilly?

It sounds like you are describing New York State to a tee to me ...

I think the Chinese might be trying to copy NYS, but they have a ways to go ...

And so ...

DWB04
QUOTE(NiteOwl @ Nov 23 2008, 02:39 PM) *
Government does not have to be the provider, but it is governmnent job to be the regulator.

It should be exceedingly clear to many here who support the "free market" that free market capitalism does not work. It is easy for those who have employer provided coverage and benefits to simply say that everyone should be "responsible"... while neglecting a few minor points. Fewer employers are providing such benefits, more employers are cutting back on such benefits, competition against other nations where industry isn't burdened with such costs will make it ever more difficult for American companies to compete, fewer people will be covered, premuims will creep (or skyrocket) ever higher and only the fortunate few will be covered.

For those of you who are preaching responsibility, while being covered by your employer, what would you do if all of a sudden your employer terminated their health insurance coverage and your family coverage started costing you $ 750 a month. What would you do if you couldn't afford it ? Would you see it as a problem for all of society or merely just another that you can't afford. Would you see it as a problem when you have to make choices to pay insurance or sell your house because you can't afford your mortgage or can't send your kids to college ? Would you see it as a problem when you have a catastrophic illness which threaten to wipe your your savings, your assets and potentially your retirement ?

I don't believe your philosophy would be quite the same if you were on the other side of the fence.

The only answer is drastic change in the nature of the healthcare / insurance system to assure that coverage is widely available and affordable to all.

Remember when I further defined "responsibility" to the ideas of individual responsibility and social responsibility? Well, we could probably further define individual responsibility. I think I mentioned before what it would mean to define healthcare along the lines of individual responsibility. And it has all the adverse affects you mention: non coverage or inadequate coverage for many Americans and for various reasons. And for that reason I support the idea of social responsibility. I support that idea, whether or not anyone else views it as a human right--because both social responsibility, and human rights are derived from a moral basis.

Now, the other side of individual responsibility is that we "should" do the best we can to achieve or maintain better health and that is no one's responsibility, but our own.

I think there is confusion though (not on your part), with the dual purpose of individual responsibility, and its relation to health as opposed to its limited view of healthcare for others.

Livyjr
QUOTE(NiteOwl @ Nov 23 2008, 12:17 PM) *
As to the VA situation, the government has been negligent and has shown a great example of why it should not be a healthcare provider.... for the service or for the populace.

There is where we keep coming back to, and it is where we cannot get away from ....

And I do not believe for a single moment that Barack Obama is going to change any of that equation ...

Nor are the democrats, since they are a part of the problem just as the republicans are ...

They are but two sides of the same coin, afterall ...

A head and a tail ...

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(NiteOwl @ Nov 23 2008, 12:26 PM) *
Talk about frivolous suits and limits to someone who has had the wrong organ removed... or, like a case I saw on the news last night.

A young woman went to the hospital with an infection.

They didn't treat her infection, which would have been treatable by antibiotics, and instead improperly diagnosed her and amputate both her lower legs and both hands.

Talk about a fricking nightmare.

Yup!

Another FRIVOLOUS LAWSUIT in the making there, alright ...

It had to be HER FAULT somehow ...

And so ...
DWB04
Liv, I'd answer more of your questions, but the large type and colored text are killing my eyes....... biggrin.gif
Livyjr
QUOTE(NiteOwl @ Nov 23 2008, 12:32 PM) *
Got any better answer ?

For the citizens of NYS, I do ....
amy
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Nov 23 2008, 05:24 PM) *
QUOTE(NiteOwl @ Nov 23 2008, 12:26 PM) *
Talk about frivolous suits and limits to someone who has had the wrong organ removed... or, like a case I saw on the news last night.

A young woman went to the hospital with an infection.

They didn't treat her infection, which would have been treatable by antibiotics, and instead improperly diagnosed her and amputate both her lower legs and both hands.

Talk about a fricking nightmare.

Yup!

Another FRIVOLOUS LAWSUIT in the making there, alright ...

It had to be HER FAULT somehow ...

And so ...


Do you believe there are no frivolous malpractice suits brought against doctors?
Livyjr
QUOTE(NiteOwl @ Nov 23 2008, 01:06 PM) *
We could adopt the ultimate "personal resposibility healthcare system"... eliminate health insurance altogether and let the whole system be "pay as you go".

That would simply take us back to the days of my youth, when there wasn't health insurance and when members of the community with a sense of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY to the community they were a part of offered their services to the members of their community as a doctor ...

We paid as we went, because the doctor was a part of our community ...

He was not a GOUGER of our community ...

And so ...

The system seemed to go to hell when INSURANCE came in to it ....

That is when services began to become less available, and doctors more greedy ...

SPECIALISTS arrived ....

MORE TESTS ...

And GP's disappeared like dinosaurs ...

You make it sound like the only other alternative to PAY THROUGH THE NOSE is a return to the stone ages and no healthcare at all ...

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(NiteOwl @ Nov 23 2008, 01:06 PM) *
At least people would have a house in the meantime instead of paying a premium.

My mother died of cancer at home ...

She was a nurse ...

She knew about cancer and its various treatments and costs ...

She opted out of any treatment at all, and went home to her home where she lived for several more years in PEACE before she finally passed on ...

She refused to let some doctors whittle her down piece by piece by piece until there was nothing more left of her to cut off and throw away ...

Thus, she did not bankrupt her family BY HER OWN CHOICE in the matter ....

And so ...

The medical profession and healthcare industry THRIVE on FEAR ...

"OH MY GOD, YOU HAVE GOT THIS REALLY RARE DISEASE .."

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(DWB04 @ Nov 23 2008, 05:25 PM) *
Liv, I'd answer more of your questions, but the large type and colored text are killing my eyes....... biggrin.gif

I'll take that as no answers forthcoming ...
Beamer
QUOTE(Confederacy Of Dunces @ Nov 23 2008, 01:33 PM) *
QUOTE(Beamer @ Nov 23 2008, 01:03 PM) *
QUOTE(piccadilly @ Nov 23 2008, 12:47 PM) *
QUOTE(Beamer @ Nov 23 2008, 03:13 PM) *
I'm not sure what you meant by your ostracism comment, but I do find myself not in total agreement with liberals or conservatives.

Are you suggesting you find yourself agreeing more with libertarians ?
I just find reading your POVs to be sometimes a rather ... chilling ... experience.
Your predisposition to exclude people from what appears to be your world, before denying them the same comfort on the grounds that they aren't perfect, just doesn't match my own representation of human society, that will never match the simplicity, perfectness and predictibility of an ant farm.
It is possible though that for some reason I systmatically misread you and that I'm totally mistaken on this point.
QUOTE
I think eating habits have changed over time. We have evolved from hunter gatherers to dependent on agriculture. I think that change itself has been damaging to the health of human beings.

Could you tell how damaging it has or might have been ?



I think the hunter-gatherer man ate food more beneficial to his natural state and physiology. So, he was leaner and healthier. But, the lifestyle was more conducive to conflict and war and infectious disease. Agriculture caused a decline in height, thinner bones, more cavity-prone teeth and more chronic disease. However, man cooperated more and lived longer, albeit less healthily.

what was the average age/life span of this hunter gather that was so much healthier? btw, what role did women have?




The lifespan of the hunter gatherer was less than the person dependent on agriculture because of dying in battles, not because of nutrition.


QUOTE
About 12,000 years ago people embarked on an experiment called agriculture and some say that they, and their planet, have never recovered. Farming brought a population explosion, protein and vitamin deficiency, new diseases and deforestation. Human height actually shrank by nearly six inches after the first adoption of crops in the Near East. So was agriculture “the worst mistake in the history of the human race”, as Jared Diamond, evolutionary biologist and professor of geography at the University of California, Los Angeles, once called it?

The first farmers were less healthy than the hunter-gatherers had been in their heyday. Aside from their shorter stature, they had more skeletal wear and tear from the hard work, their teeth rotted more, they were short of protein and vitamins and they caught diseases from domesticated animals: measles from cattle, flu from ducks, plague from rats and worms from using their own excrement as fertiliser.

***

They were “hunter-gatherers”. On the whole the men hunted and the women gathered: a sexual division of labour is still universal among non-farming people and was probably not shared by their Homo erectus predecessors. This enabled them to eat both meat and veg, a clever trick because it combines quality with reliability.

Not so many women as men die in warfare, it is true. But that is because they are often the object of the fighting. To be abducted as a sexual prize was almost certainly a common female fate in hunter-gatherer society. Forget the Garden of Eden; think Mad Max.



http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10278703
Livyjr
QUOTE(amy @ Nov 23 2008, 05:36 PM) *
Do you believe there are no frivolous malpractice suits brought against doctors?

I'm not aware of any up here, amy ...

Are you?
Livyjr
If you keep talking about lawyers filing frivolous lawsuits in here, amy, you will likely have tazvil04 swooping down on you like a stooping falcon ...

tazvil04 will be all over you like a spinning buzzsaw blade, denouncing you as a running-dawg agent of the CORPORATE WHITE COLLAR-CRIMINAL'S BAR trying to smear the members of the TRIAL LAWYERS ASSOCIATION, or the PLAINTIFF'S BAR....

And so ....

You're not, are you?

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(DWB04 @ Nov 23 2008, 01:29 PM) *
The only way Obama can revitalize our economy is to approach the reform of healthcare and education and to address alternative energy sources and job production.......a comprehensive plan includes all of these and they cannot be approached separately or incrementally.

If Obama wants to REFORM healthcare in NYS, then he has to tackle the role of the democrat party in corrupting it and causing need for reform in the first place ...

Does Obama have the sand or grit necessary to do this?

Reform his own party?

We are waiting to see out here in the countryside ...

And so ...


amy
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Nov 23 2008, 06:04 PM) *
QUOTE(amy @ Nov 23 2008, 05:36 PM) *
Do you believe there are no frivolous malpractice suits brought against doctors?

I'm not aware of any up here, amy ...

Are you?


There are frivolous lawsuits filed everywhere. But, I have read that exorbitant medical malpractice insurance costs might be more tied to insurance companies compensating for falling investment returns than to frivolous suits or high jury awards.
Livyjr
In the age of the Roman Republic, amy, according to Cicero, a lawyer who filed a false or malicious lawsuit would have his forehead branded with a mark and he would be banished from the Republic ....

We live in a different day and age, apparently ...

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(amy @ Nov 23 2008, 07:00 PM) *
There are frivolous lawsuits filed everywhere.

QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Nov 18 2008, 10:07 AM) *
You may want to condemn a whole profession -- and the bar association that tries to ensure ethical behavior...that tries to promote professionalism...but I do not buy it...

I have been watching the corporate folks try and demonize lawyers for years in an effort to take away the rights of victims to receive just compensation for their injuries...

Lawyers do not win anything by denying access to the courts...it is not in their best interests...the less cases that go to court the less clients they have...

As I was saying, amy ...

Stooping like a falcon ...

AND ...

The less cases that go to court ...

The less cases they have, frivolous or not ...

And so ...

In that sense, lawyers are just like doctors ...

When either screws up on your case, you still have to pay the bill .....

Even if you are dead as a result .....

And so ...
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Nov 23 2008, 05:33 PM) *
QUOTE(NiteOwl @ Nov 23 2008, 12:32 PM) *
Got any better answer ?

For the citizens of NYS, I do ....


Sounds like NYS has it so good they should secede from the Union.
NiteOwl

So... states that want to impose limits on "non-economic" damages should be permitted to do so ?

Not in my book.

Would anyone trade their arms and legs for $ 250,000 or $ 400,000 that they wish to limit such damages to ?

I sure as Hell wouldn't.

Aside from that, it seems that it is somewhat of a red herring to me. The insurance companies want to have their cake and eat it to... limit damages even in cases where malpractice is clearly the cause as well as limiting the costs of illegitimate suits. Hence the insurance companies increase THEIR bottom lines... still high premiums from doctors for malpractice coverage and reduced costs for claim losses.

Seems to me that the real problem is simply judges who don't toss frivolous suits out. The ability of patients to sue for their losses should not be impeded nor should the amount of their claim be limited.

To me the changes sought are more for the benefit of the insurance companies and not the consumer / patient.
DWB04
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Nov 23 2008, 03:57 PM) *
QUOTE(DWB04 @ Nov 23 2008, 05:25 PM) *
Liv, I'd answer more of your questions, but the large type and colored text are killing my eyes....... biggrin.gif

I'll take that as no answers forthcoming ...

I guess so, if it's so hard to accomodate a request.
Confederacy Of Dunces
QUOTE(Beamer @ Nov 23 2008, 02:57 PM) *
QUOTE(Confederacy Of Dunces @ Nov 23 2008, 01:33 PM) *
QUOTE(Beamer @ Nov 23 2008, 01:03 PM) *
QUOTE(piccadilly @ Nov 23 2008, 12:47 PM) *
QUOTE(Beamer @ Nov 23 2008, 03:13 PM) *
I'm not sure what you meant by your ostracism comment, but I do find myself not in total agreement with liberals or conservatives.

Are you suggesting you find yourself agreeing more with libertarians ?
I just find reading your POVs to be sometimes a rather ... chilling ... experience.
Your predisposition to exclude people from what appears to be your world, before denying them the same comfort on the grounds that they aren't perfect, just doesn't match my own representation of human society, that will never match the simplicity, perfectness and predictibility of an ant farm.
It is possible though that for some reason I systmatically misread you and that I'm totally mistaken on this point.
QUOTE
I think eating habits have changed over time. We have evolved from hunter gatherers to dependent on agriculture. I think that change itself has been damaging to the health of human beings.

Could you tell how damaging it has or might have been ?



I think the hunter-gatherer man ate food more beneficial to his natural state and physiology. So, he was leaner and healthier. But, the lifestyle was more conducive to conflict and war and infectious disease. Agriculture caused a decline in height, thinner bones, more cavity-prone teeth and more chronic disease. However, man cooperated more and lived longer, albeit less healthily.

what was the average age/life span of this hunter gather that was so much healthier? btw, what role did women have?




The lifespan of the hunter gatherer was less than the person dependent on agriculture because of dying in battles, not because of nutrition.


QUOTE
About 12,000 years ago people embarked on an experiment called agriculture and some say that they, and their planet, have never recovered. Farming brought a population explosion, protein and vitamin deficiency, new diseases and deforestation. Human height actually shrank by nearly six inches after the first adoption of crops in the Near East. So was agriculture “the worst mistake in the history of the human race”, as Jared Diamond, evolutionary biologist and professor of geography at the University of California, Los Angeles, once called it?

The first farmers were less healthy than the hunter-gatherers had been in their heyday. Aside from their shorter stature, they had more skeletal wear and tear from the hard work, their teeth rotted more, they were short of protein and vitamins and they caught diseases from domesticated animals: measles from cattle, flu from ducks, plague from rats and worms from using their own excrement as fertiliser.

***

They were “hunter-gatherers”. On the whole the men hunted and the women gathered: a sexual division of labour is still universal among non-farming people and was probably not shared by their Homo erectus predecessors. This enabled them to eat both meat and veg, a clever trick because it combines quality with reliability.

Not so many women as men die in warfare, it is true. But that is because they are often the object of the fighting. To be abducted as a sexual prize was almost certainly a common female fate in hunter-gatherer society. Forget the Garden of Eden; think Mad Max.



http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10278703
So the people who were not warriors lived to a ripe old age? lol


seriously, they do tests on the bones they find. you or I would not have wanted to live like them...battles or no battles.
GOPGuy
QUOTE(NiteOwl @ Nov 23 2008, 12:23 PM) *
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Nov 23 2008, 09:11 AM) *
QUOTE(billfmsd @ Nov 22 2008, 08:49 PM) *
It's your free market failure that lead to your socialist corporate welfare bailout.

HOOOOOOEEEEE ...

Point back to billfmsd ...


Amen here.

Funny how we bail out the banking elite while leaving the workers at the big three wondering if they will have a job by Christmas.

Welfare is only for those at the top or the extreme bottom. If you're in the middle... you're screwed.

Oh... and guess which welfare program cost the most....


Two things, it was the free market failure that caused the bailout. The free market would never have accepted the risk had the Federal govt not coerced them to get those of lesser means into the housing market. Its YOUR government involvement that was the catalyst to this problem. Second, I supported the bailout only due to the impact it had across the board, if the banks don't you, companies dont meet payroll, people get layed off, its bigger than the big 3. I do not support bailing them out, I think they are looking for a quick fix, I think they need to get new management and bite the bullet and yes that may cause layoffs to happen, but in the long wrong, those companies may come out stronger.
Beamer
QUOTE(Confederacy Of Dunces @ Nov 23 2008, 05:39 PM) *
So the people who were not warriors lived to a ripe old age? lol


seriously, they do tests on the bones they find. you or I would not have wanted to live like them...battles or no battles.


Rather brutish, I would think. But here's a modern-day hunter-gatherer specimen:



She's lean, has great teeth, and she doesn't look brutish - nor does her husband.
NiteOwl
QUOTE(GOPGuy @ Nov 23 2008, 10:08 PM) *
Two things, it was the free market failure that caused the bailout. The free market would never have accepted the risk had the Federal govt not coerced them to get those of lesser means into the housing market. Its YOUR government involvement that was the catalyst to this problem. Second, I supported the bailout only due to the impact it had across the board, if the banks don't you, companies dont meet payroll, people get layed off, its bigger than the big 3. I do not support bailing them out, I think they are looking for a quick fix, I think they need to get new management and bite the bullet and yes that may cause layoffs to happen, but in the long wrong, those companies may come out stronger.


BS... The FED, and not the market, set the artificially low interest rates that created the housing bubble. Then if you want to look a little deeper, don't forget that the repeal of Glass-Steagall Act by a Republican Congress in 1999 (and by Party line vote) deregulated ownership of banks and created the highly-leveraged investment bank bundling and reselling of mortgages in highly leveraged derivatives.

Don't go try and blame this crap on the Dems. Wall Street wanted this, they got it, and they abused it.... and their malfeasance created this mess.

Aside from that interest rates should be determined by the market like anything else in a free market, but the FED has played its interventionist had far too strongly and we now suffer the effects.

As far as the big three... if they go under it won't be a recession... and two to three million MORE people will be unemployed. You want a recovery any time soon... you better pray for a solution. If not get the soup lines ready folks... we're going down.

GOPGuy
QUOTE(NiteOwl @ Nov 23 2008, 11:30 PM) *
QUOTE(GOPGuy @ Nov 23 2008, 10:08 PM) *
Two things, it was the free market failure that caused the bailout. The free market would never have accepted the risk had the Federal govt not coerced them to get those of lesser means into the housing market. Its YOUR government involvement that was the catalyst to this problem. Second, I supported the bailout only due to the impact it had across the board, if the banks don't you, companies dont meet payroll, people get layed off, its bigger than the big 3. I do not support bailing them out, I think they are looking for a quick fix, I think they need to get new management and bite the bullet and yes that may cause layoffs to happen, but in the long wrong, those companies may come out stronger.


BS... The FED, and not the market, set the artificially low interest rates that created the housing bubble. Then if you want to look a little deeper, don't forget that the repeal of Glass-Steagall Act by a Republican Congress in 1999 (and by Party line vote) deregulated ownership of banks and created the highly-leveraged investment bank bundling and reselling of mortgages in highly leveraged derivatives.

Don't go try and blame this crap on the Dems. Wall Street wanted this, they got it, and they abused it.... and their malfeasance created this mess.

Aside from that interest rates should be determined by the market like anything else in a free market, but the FED has played its interventionist had far too strongly and we now suffer the effects.

As far as the big three... if they go under it won't be a recession... and two to three million MORE people will be unemployed. You want a recovery any time soon... you better pray for a solution. If not get the soup lines ready folks... we're going down.


The interest rates didnt have anything to do with it, its with the peoples ability to pay. There was a push by the federal govt to get more people to own home, specifically those who really couldnt afford it. Now if you want to attrobute that solely to Republicans(althought thats not true) I dont care. It was governments involvement that created the mess to begin with. Its part of the liberal mantra that people are entitle to this or that. They believed people had the right to own a home, so they made a way possible for them to do it. And Maxine Waters and others like her in Congress whole heartedly backed what was going on, because more people were owning homes. But when everything comes tumbling down Maxine and her cronies on the banking committee blame everyone but themselves.
NiteOwl
QUOTE(GOPGuy @ Nov 23 2008, 11:38 PM) *
The interest rates didnt have anything to do with it, its with the peoples ability to pay. There was a push by the federal govt to get more people to own home, specifically those who really couldnt afford it. Now if you want to attrobute that solely to Republicans(althought thats not true) I dont care. It was governments involvement that created the mess to begin with. Its part of the liberal mantra that people are entitle to this or that. They believed people had the right to own a home, so they made a way possible for them to do it. And Maxine Waters and others like her in Congress whole heartedly backed what was going on, because more people were owning homes. But when everything comes tumbling down Maxine and her cronies on the banking committee blame everyone but themselves.


And you don't believe that interest rates determine how much a person can repay and, in turn, how much they can borrow ?

Do you really believe that the housing bubble was caused by some promotion... and that banks aren't still supposed to qualify borrowers, and that the banks, and not the government, were responsible for the loans they made.

Yes it was Phil Gramm behind the deregulation that caused this mess... under a Republican Congress and a housing bubble which was created by a Republican administration and a Republican Congress. You're so quick to blame the Dems... so put this one right where it belongs. And... if it were the liberal mantra then it seems that the liberal mantra was taken to a new level by the GOP controlled Congress and Bush administration. They wanted to prevent a small downturn and created a disaster in its place.

You want to blame the Dems... and the Dems have controlled Congress for only the last year and a half... and the committee assignments as well.
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Nov 23 2008, 07:49 PM) *
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Nov 23 2008, 05:33 PM) *

QUOTE(NiteOwl @ Nov 23 2008, 12:32 PM) *

Got any better answer ?

For the citizens of NYS, I do ....


Sounds like NYS has it so good they should secede from the Union.


We only have it good on paper, rla ...

Not in reality ...

We have the same two corrupt political parties in charge up here as does the rest of the "union" ....

The same republican contempt and dismissal of the rule of law and the constitution ...

The same democrat total ignorance that there ever was such a thing as rule of law or constitutions ...

So we end up being in the same lousy shape as the rest of the "union" in reality, thanks to them ...

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(DWB04 @ Nov 23 2008, 08:12 PM) *
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Nov 23 2008, 03:57 PM) *

QUOTE(DWB04 @ Nov 23 2008, 05:25 PM) *

Liv, I'd answer more of your questions, but the large type and colored text are killing my eyes....... biggrin.gif

I'll take that as no answers forthcoming ...


I guess so, if it's so hard to accomodate a request.


How were you able to respond to this one then, eh?

Because it asked no questions for which you are unable to provide coherent, cogent, rational, factual answers?
Livyjr
QUOTE(Beamer @ Nov 23 2008, 10:10 PM) *


She's lean, has great teeth, and she doesn't look brutish ....

First of all, brutishness is in the eye of the beholder ....

(Ah, bad hair day there, or what?)

Second, did you ever see a flesh-eating predator like a wolf that did not have white shiny teeth like this specimen shows?

And in this case, the specimen may well be lean because not every carnivore is a natural or excellent hunter ...

Hence Darwinism ...

In the case of this particular flesh-eating predator, of course, Darwinism worked to the advantage of the civilized people of America ...

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Nov 23 2008, 07:49 PM) *
Sounds like NYS has it so good they should secede from the Union.

Why are you so all-fired contemptuous of constitutions and rule of law, rla?

What particular sensibility of yours does the rule of law over the rule of the mob offend?

Is this some kind of lingering, smoldering hatred for the "union" and the "bluebellies" from back in the War of Northern Aggression against the "secesh" down south?
Confederacy Of Dunces
QUOTE(Beamer @ Nov 23 2008, 07:10 PM) *
QUOTE(Confederacy Of Dunces @ Nov 23 2008, 05:39 PM) *
So the people who were not warriors lived to a ripe old age? lol


seriously, they do tests on the bones they find. you or I would not have wanted to live like them...battles or no battles.


Rather brutish, I would think. But here's a modern-day hunter-gatherer specimen:



She's lean, has great teeth, and she doesn't look brutish - nor does her husband.

you are too funny. Rofl2.gif


but romanticizing the past of humankind is silly. we have evolved. evolution like all growth is painful. your hurt is showing.
Confederacy Of Dunces
QUOTE(Beamer @ Nov 23 2008, 07:10 PM) *
QUOTE(Confederacy Of Dunces @ Nov 23 2008, 05:39 PM) *
So the people who were not warriors lived to a ripe old age? lol


seriously, they do tests on the bones they find. you or I would not have wanted to live like them...battles or no battles.


Rather brutish, I would think. But here's a modern-day hunter-gatherer specimen:



She's lean, has great teeth, and she doesn't look brutish - nor does her husband.

but I like Palin. If she were a Democrat the media and everyone else (but wingnuts) would've been all over her blowing smoke around her. Obama is Palin in butch drag. She rocks.


---

now I must disclose I fundamentally disagree with her on many issues, but there is NOBODY I agree with on most things.
Frenchy
QUOTE(Confederacy Of Dunces @ Nov 24 2008, 09:18 AM) *
QUOTE(Beamer @ Nov 23 2008, 07:10 PM) *
QUOTE(Confederacy Of Dunces @ Nov 23 2008, 05:39 PM) *
So the people who were not warriors lived to a ripe old age? lol


seriously, they do tests on the bones they find. you or I would not have wanted to live like them...battles or no battles.


Rather brutish, I would think. But here's a modern-day hunter-gatherer specimen:



She's lean, has great teeth, and she doesn't look brutish - nor does her husband.

but I like Palin. If she were a Democrat the media and everyone else (but wingnuts) would've been all over her blowing smoke around her. Obama is Palin in butch drag. She rocks.


---

now I must disclose I fundamentally disagree with her on many issues, but there is NOBODY I agree with on most things.



She is too far Right of me, but I like the hell out of her. smile.gif
amy
QUOTE(Beamer @ Nov 23 2008, 10:10 PM) *
QUOTE(Confederacy Of Dunces @ Nov 23 2008, 05:39 PM) *
So the people who were not warriors lived to a ripe old age? lol


seriously, they do tests on the bones they find. you or I would not have wanted to live like them...battles or no battles.


Rather brutish, I would think. But here's a modern-day hunter-gatherer specimen:



She's lean, has great teeth, and she doesn't look brutish - nor does her husband.


Great attributes if you're sizing up a horse...... whistling.gif
NiteOwl
Anyone notice the slight pointedness of her ear ?

Hmmmm....

TheRestofUs
QUOTE(Beamer @ Nov 23 2008, 11:29 AM) *
QUOTE(TheRestofUs @ Nov 22 2008, 06:42 PM) *
QUOTE(GOPGuy @ Nov 22 2008, 05:35 PM) *
QUOTE(NiteOwl @ Nov 22 2008, 08:24 PM) *
QUOTE(GOPGuy @ Nov 22 2008, 08:16 PM) *
QUOTE(canjcat @ Nov 22 2008, 03:30 PM) *
Healthcare is a RIGHT.


Nope.



Typical conservative, greedy, self-interested thinking.

Conservatives just don't get it It's not all about "me". It's not all about giveaways and handouts either... but it is not about leaving a giant part of our society behind. It is not about turning the country into haves and have-nots.

We are getting a little look at just what the culture of greed has wrought in our economy today. Of course conservatives will never see the cause and effect... so I don't expect you to.


Its not greed, its just common sense. You want to put the governmentin control of running the healthcare system, you sure you want to entrust your health the Fed? You think thats wise? Whats next, we gonna start saying having a home is a right, or a car? Where does it stop? I agree health care needs to be looked at. But the only thing most liberals only want to discuss is turning it over to the government, why is the only alternative the extreme left alternative? Why can we have a rational discussion of the problem of the root causes of the high price of healthcare and address those. If a software company has a bug in their software they dont remake the product from scratch to fix the problem, they find the root cause and fix that problem. Liberals don't want to discuss options, only option is government run blah blah blah.

The Government is us, or at least it's supposed to be. Except under Republicans who wish to destroy government so they can divide the country into the owners and the serfs. Guess which one they want to be? If government is truly of, by and for the people then it makes sense they will promote the general welfare. The pursuit of Life Liberty and Happiness is impossible if you are sick and broke because of it. Healthcare is a right if we want a healthy economy and every other industrialized country has universal healthcare of one form or another and thus lifts the burden from their businesses with which ours must compete. The standard talking points from the right is you are all on your own while we (Republicans) will band together to buy up the busineses and send the jobs overseas even to the dreaded communists in order to force your nasty wages down so "we" can "compete with Chinese coolie labor. I say "we" the real Americans should throw the Republicans from the train or better yet pile them all on a slow boat to China to join their "comrades".

In so many words: "Eat My Shorts".



Are you ever going to get off of this "hate Republicans" kick? It's old and tiresome and your criticisms are blanket stereotyping. Republicans generally favor less government involvement and more market driven solutions. It's a philosophical difference.

Probably not. Sorry to tire you with my stereotypical criticisms but however old, if the shoe fits... The Republicans as a Party and those Democrats who share their "Voo Doo Trickle Down" mindset are responsible for the worst disasters in American economic and foreign policy history. If we suffer another Depression it will be another Republican Depression just like the last one. And whatever they call themselves now or in the future their name will be "Mudd" to me.

I am for a robust healthy economy so I can make a living along with the vast majority, and unlike some I didn't swallow the BS of "Morning in America" from a grade B actor out of Hollywood that "Government is the Problem". Maybe criticism of those who voted in that farce of an economic plan that really was an attack on the American people wrapped in Red White and Blue is "tiresome" to those who drank that kool-aide so long ago. Many thought oh what a good smart move we "Real" Americans made when we voted out that old peanut farmer and voted in a legacy of lies and economic ruin for the Middle Class.

Well like any holocaust it behoves us all to remember how we were fooled and why and by whom lest we repeat that monumental mistake again the next time some well groomed flag pin wearing slick talking huckster with a mouth full of homilies about "family values" lays down another line of BS for us to snort... while he picks our pockets.

Don't believe for a moment they (The Republicans) are going to go away. After having wrecked the economy the'll sit by and carp and mock the Obama Administration as he and a Dem Congress tries to clean up their mess, and then they'll be back with another rich guy like "Mittens" or an "AW Shucks" Con Man like Huckabee or the turkey strangling "You Betcha Gal" just waiting in the wings to tell us they're here to rescue the "real" American people from the Big Bad Guberment.
amy
QUOTE(NiteOwl @ Nov 24 2008, 10:56 AM) *
Anyone notice the slight pointedness of her ear ?

Hmmmm....


An elf? Santa's helper?...being from the far North....it's possible!
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Nov 24 2008, 09:10 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Nov 23 2008, 07:49 PM) *
Sounds like NYS has it so good they should secede from the Union.

Why are you so all-fired contemptuous of constitutions and rule of law, rla?

What particular sensibility of yours does the rule of law over the rule of the mob offend?

Is this some kind of lingering, smoldering hatred for the "union" and the "bluebellies" from back in the War of Northern Aggression against the "secesh" down south?


On the contrary, I love the Magna Carter, the US Constitution, the UN Human Rights Charter and
the Rule of Law concept, except laws that create victimless crimes.

Could your last sentence be a projection?
NiteOwl
QUOTE(amy @ Nov 24 2008, 10:57 AM) *
QUOTE(NiteOwl @ Nov 24 2008, 10:56 AM) *
Anyone notice the slight pointedness of her ear ?

Hmmmm....


An elf? Santa's helper?...being from the far North....it's possible!



I was thinking more... Vulcan.
amy
QUOTE(NiteOwl @ Nov 24 2008, 11:03 AM) *
QUOTE(amy @ Nov 24 2008, 10:57 AM) *
QUOTE(NiteOwl @ Nov 24 2008, 10:56 AM) *
Anyone notice the slight pointedness of her ear ?

Hmmmm....


An elf? Santa's helper?...being from the far North....it's possible!



I was thinking more... Vulcan.


That too! biggrin.gif
xyzse
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...&refer=home
QUOTE
Insurers’ Medicare Plans Raise Costs, Not Quality (Update1)

By Avram Goldstein

Nov. 24 (Bloomberg) -- Insurers’ government-backed health plans for the elderly have increased taxpayer costs with no evidence of improved care, according to research backing President-elect Barack Obama’s call to lower U.S. subsidies.

Many of the Medicare Advantage plans, as they are called, don’t coordinate care to avoid duplication and ensure the best results, authors said in articles posted today on the Web site of Health Affairs. The plans were devised to offer more benefits than conventional Medicare paid directly by the U.S. government.

About a fourth of the 44 million people on Medicare are covered by the Advantage plans, with the U.S. expected to pay $100 billion this year for the coverage. Congress had increased payments in 2003, helping private insurers led by UnitedHealth Group Inc. and Humana Inc. Obama has called payments to insurers excessive and pledged to reduce funding by $15 billion annually.

“We spent a lot of money on expanding payments for Medicare Advantage plans, and it’s not clear what we got,” said Marsha Gold, a senior fellow at the firm Mathematica Policy Research in Washington and one of the authors, in a telephone interview. “There’s no real evidence that the quality of care is any better.”

Obama made health care a top domestic priority during his campaign for the presidency. Last week, Thomas A. Daschle, a former U.S. senator from South Dakota and an expert on health care, accepted Obama’s offer to become Health and Human Services secretary, a Democratic official familiar with the matter said. The health department oversees Medicare, the program for the elderly and disabled.

Goal Setting

Congress and the new president should set clear goals for Medicare, authors of a separate Health Affairs article said. That means facing down ideologues who want Medicare to wither and those who want it to be the foundation of the U.S. health- care system.

The Advantage plans cost, on average, 13 percent more than the government directly pays doctors and hospitals for patients who stay with the original Medicare program. The 10.2 million subscribers in Advantage make up 23 percent of all beneficiaries.

Depending on location, insurers offer extra benefits such as lower out-of-pocket costs, vision care and gym memberships.

The benefits are subsidized by taxpayers and beneficiaries who aren’t enrolled in Advantage plans. For 2009, Medicare estimates that Advantage costs boosted so-called Part B premiums for non-members by $3 a month, said authors Carlos Zarabozo and Scott Harrison in the journal. Both work for the Medicare Payment Advisory Commission, an independent congressional agency.

Insurance Burden

Insurers at the same time have grown more reliant on the government program as employers cut benefits and eliminate jobs in the recession.

Three companies -- Humana of Louisville, Kentucky; WellCare Health Plans Inc., of Tampa, Florida; and HealthSpring Inc. of Nashville -- depend on Medicare Advantage for more than 80 percent of their earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization, according to Carl McDonald, an analyst with Oppenheimer & Co. in New York, in a note to investors.

Advantage spending will hasten by 18 months the date when the Medicare Trust Fund will run out of money, which the government projects to be 2019, analysts said in Health Affairs.

Medicare spent $430 billion in 2007, or about 16 percent of the federal budget, to care for the 44 million beneficiaries. Spending, which made up 3.2 percent of the economy in 2007, is expected to grow faster than workers’ wages or gross domestic product, according to the annual Medicare trustees’ report released in March.

Call for Moderation

Analysts Robert A. Berenson, a senior fellow at the nonpartisan Urban Institute in Washington, and Bryan E. Dowd, a health policy professor at the University of Minnesota, said it was time for extremists on both sides of the issue to step aside.

“Allowing an inefficient Medicare program to sink into insolvency in hopes either that beneficiaries will force higher tax rates on their children or that the program will implode, forcing beneficiaries into the individual private insurance market, may be ideologically satisfying, but it is not responsible policy making,” they wrote.

Medicare officials should share information with researchers about the inner workings of the program, Gold said. President George W. Bush’s administration gave out little data, she said.

“It’s been tremendously hard to get information on what’s been happening with the program, and that’s meant that people have been flying blind,” she said.

For Related News:

To contact the reporter on this story: Avram Goldstein in Washington at agoldstein1@bloomberg.net.

Last Updated: November 24, 2008 10:35 EST
Alright....
With McCain, I did enjoy the belief of personal responsibility in regards to Health Care and in terms of Privitization the idea that it saves money, and keeps matters competative to improve our system. However... Such a system only works if there is no greed in the world.

Health Care has to me become a right in my view, especially for a country such as ours who are paying so much for health care for very bad service. I am not just talking about the actual care, but even the accounting, the hidden costs and so forth that private insurance has perpetuated in the system for them to make money.

You know what is the most messed up part in that? Not only did they add unneeded complexity in an already convoluted system, you pay in to it as you work or when you can afford it, but when you actually get sick and because of that can't get to work, you lose health care when you need it the most.

People then wait till they are sick enough rather than going for the cheaper preventive medicine, to wait till they have to go to the emergency room. That is actually one of the most expensive methods of getting care. Where many who go there don't have insurance and can't pay it. Who then gets saddled with the cost but those of us who are insured.

The industry and companies pay in to such insurance for their employees, which is a big added cost for their operation. I'd think that would help companies especially small to mid-sized ones with their ability to function and stay profitable.

The problem I have with privitization on a needed service such as this is that, private companies are made to make money. They then have the incentive to drive up costs and cut corners to do so, and if they can charge you for any minor thing, or something that doesn't make sense, they will.

I doubt much would change. However, providing universal health care is far from socialism. I think it is just right, especially since everyone who has insurance in the end already pays for the care of those that don't have it any way. (note my point about people waiting to get bad enough to go to the ER and people skipping doses making their sickness worse, and even more of a drag that it raises cost.)
Livyjr
QUOTE(Confederacy Of Dunces @ Nov 24 2008, 10:18 AM) *
... but I like Palin.

Good for you ...

That is what I like about America ....

It has room for all kinds of different points-of-view ...

Such as mine, for example ....

To me, Palin is a woman of shallow intellect ...

Kind of ditzy ...

BUT ....

That and what the republicans said was a nice pair of hooters won her a lot of republican support up here ...

They could just see her in a little French Maid "uniform" delivering them beer and mixed drinks while they played poker at one of their "political" meetings ...

And so ...

God Bless America, ain't it?

And so ....
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Nov 24 2008, 11:02 AM) *
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Nov 24 2008, 09:10 AM) *

QUOTE(rla @ Nov 23 2008, 07:49 PM) *

Sounds like NYS has it so good they should secede from the Union.

Why are you so all-fired contemptuous of constitutions and rule of law, rla?

What particular sensibility of yours does the rule of law over the rule of the mob offend?

Is this some kind of lingering, smoldering hatred for the "union" and the "bluebellies" from back in the War of Northern Aggression against the "secesh" down south?



On the contrary, I love the Magna Carter, the US Constitution, the UN Human Rights Charter and the Rule of Law concept, except laws that create victimless crimes.

Could your last sentence be a projection?



Then I find it hard indeed to reconcile your statement about NY "seceding" from a union which does not exist anymore, except in name, only ...

HOWEVER ...

I have not and will not give up, rla ...

I shall endeavor to persevere at solving that conundrum ...

As to your question about "projecting", as a trained mental health professional, rla, you yourself know very welll that such a thing is possible, as do I ...

But consider the forensic evidence here, rla, in a scientific manner ...

For me to be "projecting" here, at least in so far as I understand the psychological concept, "I", the intelligence that constitutes the "me" that reports in here, would have to be this following persona, to wit:

Is this some kind of lingering, smoldering hatred for the "union" and the "bluebellies" from back in the War of Northern Aggression against the "secesh" down south?

end quotes

For me, rla, that answer is easy ....

THE CIVIL WAR is over, rla ....

Lay it to rest ....

We are all one country, now, ALLEGEDLY AND SUPPOSEDLY ...

Which is where my thoughts lay, not with rehashing what might have happened if that damn arrogant thoughtless fool J.E.B. Stewart had not of lost contact with old Bob Lee, thus leaving him blind at Gettysburg, or if old "STONEWALL" Jackson had not of been shot down by his own men in the Wilderness ...

And so ...
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2010 Invision Power Services, Inc.