http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/23/opinion/...tml?ref=opinion

December 23, 2008
EDITORIAL
Price of Lax Gun Laws

For years, the gun lobby has defeated new gun control laws partly by arguing that stronger laws do not deter crime. A study prepared by Mayors Against Illegal Guns, a bipartisan group headed by Mayor Michael Bloomberg of New York and Mayor Thomas Menino of Boston, should finally put that myth to rest.

The study analyzed trace data for guns used in connection with crimes during 2007. The data reveal a strong correlation between weak state gun laws and higher rates of in-state murders, police slayings and sales of guns used in crimes in other states.

Many states have enacted strong gun laws to supplement inadequate federal ones, including mandatory background checks on gun show sales. States requiring the same background checks at gun shows as those required for store purchases show an export rate for guns used in crimes that’s nearly half the national average. This argues for Congressional action to end the gun-show loophole nationally. States with weak gun laws produce different outcomes. More than half the guns recovered in out-of-state crimes last year were supplied by Georgia, Florida, Texas, Virginia and six other states where weak laws make it easy for gun traffickers and other criminals to obtain weapons.

Weak gun laws also put a state’s own citizens at risk. There were nearly 60 percent more gun murders in the 10 states where exports were highest than in the states with low export rates — and nearly three times as many fatal shootings of law enforcement officers.

The study by the mayors’ group isn’t the first to document the link between weak gun laws and gun violence or the “iron pipeline” by which guns flow from states with weak gun laws into states with strong ones. Still, the numbers are startling. They explain why the gun lobby resisted their release, and they provide a powerful retort to those who claim tougher gun laws don’t work.

I personally would like to see that all gunshow vendors use the NICS system. FFL license holders do in my state, but private sellers don't.

Stats can be made to say whatever you want. "Weak gun laws". What exactly does that mean??? By contrast, "strong gun laws" what does that mean? How about effective gun laws. What is it about "strong" gun laws that is effective.

As far as the gun show loop hole, it is less common than one thinks. There is no loop hole. Licensed dealers are required to do NICS, period. At a gun show or not. The loop hole is that a private seller can sell up to a limit w/o back ground check. That is horse pucky. Gun shows should not let them sell there. If you want to sell, buy an ad. I don't have a hard time believing that many "private" sellers move many guns no questions asked. That is wrong.


For the study, it makes a case, but does not tell the whole story. Sure some states are easier, so that is where the business goes. You make the criminals learn to export between states. OK, move to the logical next step. Ban all guns. You would see an equalization between the states once again. You would see trafficking across the border fill demand. You would do nothing to stop gun violence. It didn't work for DC, and it hasn't worked for England.

The study also tries to paint a picture of weaker gun laws lead to less safe population. However, this is vary narrow. What data went into determining this? Total or per capita? What crime prevention programs , or lack there of are taken into account? Police budgets, urban centers, drug use.... So much behind that nice neat little statement, There were nearly 60 percent more gun murders in the 10 states where exports were highest than in the states with low export rates — and nearly three times as many fatal shootings of law enforcement officers.



To be fair, I don't believe the fact that carry permits lowers crime. Numbers say so for those state that do. However, I feel criminals just move to states with less hassle for them. Meaning permits do not solve the problem of lowering crime, they just move it. Great for those localities. Make nation wide permits available, and the crime would equalize again.

Numbers are easy to manipulate

The constitution allows the Right to bear arms, and leaves powers
not deliniated "to the states". There are reasons for both portions.

Gun legislation can be tweaked, but can it change men? I think not.

Perhaps we should look past the states to the individuals who commit
the crimes. Perhaps we should strictly limit their ability to travel to these
"weak gun law" states, maybe even jail them the first time they show a
violent tendancy - such as gang involvement. If we look closely we may find
there are ways to make a study and "profile" them...oops...there I go again
trying to make personal responsibility an issue when a few more laws should do.

There are states (VA used to be one - maybe still is) where there is no limit to the number of guns you can buy. In the past, certain "businessmen" would load up their trunks with Glocks, then head north to the 'hoods in metro areas where they would sell them to the local toughs.

Some States have a wait period; others a daily or monthly limit.

I don't see these limits as "infringing" on the 2nd amdt.

But they sure infringe on the right to sell arms, which I support.

But you can't do that. You would be infringing on their rights.

Much better to infringe on the the 2A since we all know how bad guns are. Guns need to be infringed on, not criminals. Guns are evil.

Actually you can, states have the right to place restrictions on convicted felons, including requiring them getting permission to travel when they're on probation or parole. In other words it would merely require changing probation or parole terms to be within well established criteria for constitutionally acceptable practice. I'm pretty sure it isn't very practical, but it can be done. At least it's an interesting concept.

I was being sarcastic.

The approach seems to be that if we take away tools, then criminals will stop being criminals. It seems much more effort is spent on regulating guns, than regulating criminals.

The problem isn't felons buying guns. It is sellers that buy them legally then sell them to criminals. I don't have a problem with some sort of legislation that would stop this practice. I have no illusions that it would keep guns out of the hands of criminals. I just don't think as a society we should make it easy through normal channels.