He promised a tough fight to get all votes counted--he can't go down like a lamb and expect to have any prosepect for 2008. He can forget that. Dems won't back a guy who won't fight like hell, and thus far he has folded like an old lawn chair.

I gotta agree. Sorry, I backed Kerry 100%...he turned away and left us holding the bag. I'm not voting for someone who gives up that easy.

I still think we need to let Florida and Ohio have the first primary. I don't want to wait until Nov 2008 to figure out what they think of the Democratic nominee!

Question.

Does Florida or Ohio have an open primary?

Florida's primary is closed.

And we also keep getting bumped back from being one of the first primaries. The show is over by the time we weigh in. <_<

I guess we should have nominated (or re-elected) Clinton again.

I believe we should keep The Republicans' feet on the fire about the2004 election but I have concerns which are , I believe, more crucial to our party like making sure that we reform voting procedures for the future, that we develop leadership to be effective spokespersons against the Pravdaized media, that we participate in the reorganization as our party reoganizes itself, that we keep this forum talking about issues that are meaningful.

So more than worry about Kerry being super involved in recounts I hope he takes leadership in issues about the budget, taxes, and Social Security etc.

it appears that we are not the only ones unhappy with this situation-
http://www.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=502

12/17/2004
The Blue Lemur
By John Byrne | RAW STORY Editor

In an exclusive interview with RAW STORY Friday, the Green Party’s presidential candidate David Cobb lashed out at Sen. John Kerry, saying he Democratic nominee has tried to “undermine,” “delegitimize” and “minimize” the Ohio recount.

Cobb, who ran an unsuccessful bid for president, is at the vanguard of the Ohio recount. The Green and Libertarian Parties raised tens of thousands of dollars to pay for the recount and put county observers on the ground.

Meanwhile, Cobb observed, Kerry has not contributed “a single dime.”

“John Kerry is trying to minimize and undermine and delegitmize the recount,” Cobb asserted.

The Green called attention to the $51 million war chest Sen. Kerry was left with after the election. Kerry has come under fire for not contributing the money to other 2004 Democratic congressional candidates.

“Sadly, John Kerry seems to be trapped under the pile of 51 million dollars that is preventing him from getting up and standing up,” Cobb told RAW STORY.

That’s “the highest amount of money a presidential candidate has ever been left with so far” after an election, he added.

Kerry, given the opportunity to exercise his right for a recount as a candidate that received a large percentage of the vote, declined to do so. As such, the Green Party and others raised $150,000 to pay Ohio to conduct the count.

Kerry-Edwards did join Cobb’s lawsuit suing to prevent the electors from voting before the recount was completed, which failed in court. They also issued a letter to Ohio Republican Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell demanding an investigation.

Cobb says the letters are paper tigers.

“They’ve issued periodic letters which have no meaning under law,” Cobb remarked.

Asked whether he had a theory on why Kerry conceded so quickly, he replied, “John Kerry definitely wanted to beat Bush, but as a member of a ruling elite, the one thing that John Kerry values over everything else is continued membership in the ruling elite.”

“I think it’s shameful,” he added.

Cobb sees the Greens’ focus on Ohio as a continuation of his race for president.

“The Green Party is not going away,” he concluded. “The Green Party is getting stronger, larger and more organized.”

A Kerry spokesperson could not be reached for comment.

It's not that, he promised that every vote would be counted. There is lots of black disenfrancisement in not just Ohio, but everywhere else. People feel like they have been slapped in the face when he said he had out backs, but now many seem to realize that he is only concerned about his own political future rather than his own supporters.

What's worse is he actually took $7 million extra from his supporters for the stated purpose of ensuring a fair election and nearly all that money is going to end up for purposes other than that.

Maybe the Republicans have more power than we know and Kerry has his hands tied.
If moles have taken control of the DNC we are in trouble.

We are all just frustrated. We would be gloating if it was the other way around.

Everyday I tell myself not to worry. He's got something up his sleeve and this is all gonna work out. Then I think about how ineptly his campaign was run and I get to worrying again. Then I think he's got $51 million sitting there and he's got it for just such an emergency. The another day goes by and he does nothing and I get worried again. That's how it is for me. Back and forth. Back and forth. He's gonna do something soon though, right?

If Kerry could just come out and tell us what's going on but maybe he can't. Doesn't
want to blow his cover! Or Kerry let us all down but he is an Attorney and one of the best
and they love to fight so I'm just confused! I still drive around town with all my
Kerry/Edwards bumper stickers because Kerry is my President but if he ain't goin to fight
for us and everyone that laughed at me for proudly still having them were right and I was
the fool and this is just another nightmare.

I am not sure at this point too many mexed missages from JK /lawyers and blogs
But most people are very upset about all the money and where it went. Why there
were not refunds instead of giving to the DNC

I disagree that Kerry is "finished politically" if he doesn't take a more frontal role in the recount. I think he WILL be finished as a potential presidential candidate. But I suspect he'll retain his Senate seat, and will be an influential member of the Senate. MA doesn't change Senators often. Kennedy's been our Senator for 42 years, and Kerry's been the "junior" Senator for 20 years.

How interesting. I posted this item in the fair election forum yesterday and it was removed. Go figure.

“They’ve issued periodic letters which have no meaning under law,” Cobb remarked.

Asked whether he had a theory on why Kerry conceded so quickly, he replied, “John Kerry definitely wanted to beat Bush, but as a member of a ruling elite, the one thing that John Kerry values over everything else is continued membership in the ruling elite.”


If true I am speechless. What I would say I will post elsewhere!

See, this kind of thing pisses me off. Kerry has 51 million dollars left over, 51 MILLION FREAKIN DOLLARS. Does anyone know how much Al Gore had after his quest? I heard numbers at around 4 million, which is still alot but 51 million dollars??? Come on, this is BS. You know, i backed Kerry 100% and was pretty upset when he lost. But to find out that he had 51 million dollars leftover, which could have been spent on all of the battleground states, (OHIO AND FLORIDA ESPECIALLY) is just absolute BS. Reluctantly it kinda makes you question how much he actually cared about the middle class and so on....or if he is like most if not all of the Republicans which will do anything to get themselves richer. I am sorry but like i mentioned above, this pisses me off big time.

Everyone needs to get a grip. First of all, I believe the leftover funds were from the primary season and I am not sure if election laws allow those funds to be used once the
general election is under way officially and Federal Funds are used.

Does anyone know the answer to this question?

PS- no one here has mentioned that Kerry sent a chunk of change out to WA state to help the
Dem governor candidate in the recount effort.

Nice to see that you believe everything you read.

1/ Kerry did not have 51 Millions, but 15, with all the bills not paid,

2/ These funds could not have been used for the general election. In addition to these funds, he also gave more than 40 millions to the DNC and the congressional comittees.

3/ Cobbs is trying to get all the votes from the most liberal members of the DNC for his party. It is a normal and clever game from his part, and the dems should not fall from it, but, this is not a reason not to think by ourselves.

Misinformation has been spread about Kerry with a single role, sink him. Fall for it if you want. I simply refuse to do that and am more interested to see where this party is going to go as a whole: more political tricks or really carrying about people.

If anyone does an analysis on Kerry's actvities during this election cycle many would be surprised that Sen. Kerry actions were more in line of the actions/decisions of a ringer than a winner.

How many vacations should a prospective candidate have DURING the campaign?
How many vacations did you have during the same period?
Why was Edwards the first to rapidly respond to some of the GOP lies?
Why did the man (Edwards) who was not on the Swift Boat have to fight harder against the the Swift Boat ads than the man that was on the the Swift Boat?
Why did they have a disfunctional strategy of refering folks to his internet site for his policies?
Why would you think that the poor, disenfranchised, and unemployeed all have computers?
The Kerry never got it.

I recall telling all my friends on that Wednesday morning that there was a great turn out and Kerry had PROMISED to ensure that ALL votes were counted.

For a VERY few hours I was actually hoping my ringer concept was dead. A couple of hours later I had to peel the egg off my face when I heard about his speech.

Now, everyone I said that to says, I was RIGHT!!!

As a society we don't want to think in those terms. To not think in those terms mean we're subject to t he rules dictated by the GOP.

Why is the concept so strange? A man was poisoned with dioxin? The election is 2000 was suspect? The 2004 election is suspect?

We're still in denial that movies lines can't actually happen in REAL life?

As for Kerry taking the 50 million in donations and running with it.

Someone please tell me what he plans to do with the money that was meant for the 2004 election cycle NOT the 2008 election cycle?

I donated and now I feel violated.

Was he keeping it for his reelection of 2008 if he won in 2004?

Can he move the money to a PAC and then pay himself a big bonus salary? Can that money be moved to an off shore account?

Is that what Pat Buchanan did with the 13 million he got from the Reform party back in 2000?

This from a man that needed a loan on his home to keep his so call campaign alive?

I'm just throwing ideals out there. If anyone has anything better speak now, I'm open.

The current FACTS as they stand don't look good for Sen. Kerry.

P.S. The fact that he has not fought to get all the votes counted regardless of who won in 2004 just means he never believed the 2000 story line about the election and he won't fight for better and uniform voting rules and equipment.

Why would he? There's nothing wrong with the current voting process in his world?

I started to answer, then realized that I could not answer politely to your post.

I still think he should have taken control of his swift boat and fired Ms. Cahill and that other guy before the DNC started or right after he secured the nomination. He would be the one choosing his cabinet and rehearsing his inaguaration speech.

Despite eveything I wrote I voted for KERRY, it didn't get me very far.

the Clinton's are very happy with the way the election turned out.
Matter of fact, it suits them fine.
Dame Hillary (who I like less every day that passes), has become the one and only candidate.

Unless the people rally around Al Gore, who the same DNC tossed out of their thoughts in 2000, and he lost by only 327 votes.

remember the anger-remmeber the feeling
Al Gore in 2008

I think Kerry was set up to lose so that Hillary could run in 2008. I don't think any southern Dems campaigned for him once down here.

I agree. My reaction was to that specific post, because personal attacks only bring us that far. We can go with personal attacks against all the democrat leaders we dont like. This would not advance the problem one iota. I dont know if Kerry is finished or not, only time will say, same thing goes for Edwards, or anybody else.

I don't think Kerry is politically finished?

Not only that, some insisted he did not visit their state (too liberal for them). Now they are complaining he did not do enough for them.

When there are comments like this made,one is assuming that Hilary will win the nomination in 2008..This wont happen ..John Kerry lost because of Diebold voting machines,Karl Roves Texas buddies with the swift boat ads and othere forces that had Karl Rove's fingerprints on them. John Kerry if he chooses to run in 2008 will win. Jist keep in mind, had John Kerry been declared the winner in this election the inauguration would be on hold because the Republicans would still be fighting the outcome.

What about Richarson, who opposes any recount in NM.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...democrats_armor

Governor against partial recount

By Deborah Baker / The Associated Press
December 18, 2004

SANTA FE - Gov. Bill Richardson, who chairs the state canvassing board, won't accept a proposal from Green and Libertarian candidates for a partial recount of votes in the presidential race.

The candidates, faced with the board's order to pay $1.4 million upfront for the statewide recount they requested, have proposed a more limited and less expensive review of the votes.

"I'm not accepting the compromise," Richardson said Friday. "It's time to move on. Let them have a full recount, if they can come up with the money."

The Democratic governor has been opposed all along to any recount in the race, in which President Bush defeated John Kerry by nearly 6,000 votes.

An appeal of the canvassing board's requirement for the $1.4 million advance payment is pending in the state Supreme Court.

The high court has not scheduled a hearing, although on Friday it issued an order telling the canvassing board to respond in writing to the candidates' lawsuit by noon Wednesday.

Lawyers for the canvassing board and the candidates - Green Party nominee David Cobb and Libertarian Party nominee Michael Badnarik - have had discussions about a limited recount, but no agreement has been reached.

"If the chairman of the state canvassing board indicates he's not interested in the settlement, I think that dims the prospects for a settlement," Assistant Attorney General David Thomson said.

The other two members of the canvassing board, Secretary of State Rebecca Vigil-Giron and Supreme Court Chief Justice Petra Maes, declined on Friday to discuss their views on the proposed compromise.

The board agreed unanimously that the presidential candidates could have a statewide recount of votes in the Nov. 2 general election only if they put up $1.4 million ahead of time.

The candidates say they are willing to pay the full cost of the recount, but they contend the law requires an advance payment of no more than the $114,400 they already deposited.

Their lawyer, Lowell Finley, has called the demand for $1.4 million "unreasonable and illegal."

Finley said Friday he is disappointed the Supreme Court didn't act quickly on the lawsuit, in light of the upcoming holidays and the Jan. 6 deadline for Congress to accept votes from presidential electors.

"The fact that only a briefing schedule has been set out, and not even a hearing date, is a disappointment," Finley said.

Under state law, candidates who request recounts must pay for them unless the winner of the race changes

It is a bit strange (his opposition that is), but Richardson wants the challengers not the taxpayers to pay for the recount.

http://www.abqtrib.com/albq/nw_local_state...3409273,00.html

http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/2004...72901-3630r.htm

He also said it is time to move on.

No Democrat has a prayer of winning anything until voting machines spit out receipts that will verify a voter's intent and can be used in a recount. I'm mad as a hatter that Kerry appears to have taken the issue of election fraud so casually, but even if he were as visible and vocal as the Greens and Libertarians it wouldn't really matter. Republicans will continue to win as long as they control the machines.

Yes, that's what I thing is strange. I really wonder if the motive is the who will pay or something else. It may well be that he doesn't believe anything will change in his state. With Kerry behind by only 6,000 votes, the issues raised by Cobb are enough for him to demand the recount. Now it comes down to money.




I agree with this. The point that even if Kerry were out shouting it wouldn't make a difference is exactly why I think Kerry center stage is a bad idea.

I don't know what Kerry is doing, and until I do, I'll keep believing he doing what he thinks is best. I'm more interested in see the Bushies go down, than with Kerry pleasing me at this moment. He has given us signs that he is aware and willing to take action. It may not be enough to make me do flips, but I don't want my hopes built up falsely, I just want Bush and empire to go down.

John Kerry is in no way politically finished if the Ohio thing tanks. All he will need is two other states that have the right number of electoral votes in order to win. There are investigations going on ... fairly quietly unless you watch the right TV channel ... in quite a few states other than Ohio.

Al Gore! What a good man. Remember him not fighting to the end in FL? Why? Then Kerry in Ohio, Why?
Maybe it's us Americans that didn't screem loud enough to get the attention it needed like
they did in the Ukrane. I think It's us because we have failed to make a big stink about it.

The best candidate by far is John Kerry.

Walk softly and carry a big stick. The big stick is us I think......

We all know that if the Republicans would have lost (which they did) whoooooo..let me rephrase this ..Lets just say John Kerry would have been declared the winner(which he rightfuly was )......every damn Republican in the world would be screaming and demanding court action and recounts and recounts and we would probably be into the next Presidential election season until the issue was settled...

You may have to convince peeps at DU that. They have given up on Kerry.

LOL! You disagree that Kerry will be finished politically, but you just provided the evidence supporting the argument that he is already finished! Sure he's still warming a Senate seat, but I predict that it will be his last term, voluntarily. He'll retire and take his gold investments, and funds leftover from this campaign and disappear with his family into the sunset with his golden nest egg.

With every passing day that goes by, and i said this during the campaign, it becomes more and more clear that Kerry either had no intention of winning this election in the first place and was just running as front man, or he changed his mind sometime during the run up to the election.

So why bother running at all you ask?

the answer is difficult to digest and possibly to accept as it would require a certain level of research and understanding of what our political system is really all about, how and why it is very anti-democracy, based on a class/feudal system, and white supremacists. And it requires learning how the Intelligence Apparattus has worked and used against our citizens and our democracy domestically - (not just abroad). It requires learning how the Intelligence Community "worked" the Dems and the Reeps for decades, effectively compromising Party Operatives over the years, which effectively helped to conjoin the two parties, but at the same time creating the perception that the two parties are ideologically worlds apart, and maintaining this phony "reality" vis a vis the media, which is also owned by what is now a firmly rooted Corporate Facists State.

Some say it is too late to turn this around now, just keep the hypnotic/slumbering masses opiated by consumerism and television, so they will never question or challenge the status quo facists state, which has completely undermined what little democracy we ever had to effectively and peacefully change or correct the socio-economic policies, which is designed to guarantee the permanence of the existing caste system.

I would like to think there isstill hope, that we can make the necessary but radical changes needed to overturn this facists state. But we're never going to see the Democratic Party becoming the so called "Opposition Party" touted by Nancy, roll out your Social Security Reform plan Pelosi, Hillary - Bush is doing a good job in Iraq and the Fallujah Massacre - Clinton, or any of the other mealy mouthed, lily livered Democratic Leadership, to be a real opposition force in this Congress.

In addition and on a personal level, Kerry who supported this war, (who boasted he would have conducted a better, smarter war than Bush) - didn't want to have a failed war effort on his record, which is exactly what would have happened, because this war IS now a FAILED War. That's why he deserted his post as the newley elected winner for President of the United States. However Kerry is working to ensure that the American People will never be informed of this. We must maintain the perception that Bush won by a landslide, and that somehow right wing nuts make up the majority of this country. a huge lie manufactured by the right extremists, but supported by the Democratic Leadership.

How insane is that?


[btw, we lost the War in Iraq and the American people has not been informed of this yet. There was no exit policy, because there was NO PLAN TO EVER LEAVE IRAQ, evidenced by permanent bases in various parts of the country and Kuwait]

kerry knows he needs to do everything he can to make sure there is a total recount in ohio and come hell or highwater it shall be accomplished...

moreover, we have four years to make a big deal over unverifiable voting practises and make sure that issue in it of itself is perfectly resolved come 2008...

thats when the whole world gets to see that we practise what we preach and i confidently predict john kerry and john edwards will easily win the d.n.c. (although there will be a bigger contest this time) and in turn properly win the whitehouse...

whatever happens these next four years, they will come to past...

and we'll have a much better world in which to call home..

in the meantime, we all have job to do and just because john kerry didn't get properly elected do to some very very dishonest people (most probably so-called swift boat veterns) we have what we have today.... but that does not prevent us from having what we want for tomorrow

- perry


- perry

Gee you are so optimistic. We need this.

This is probably a dumb notion, but I was wondering if that stupid Skull & Bones organization had anything to do with Kerry being so quick to fade into the wallpaper. At this point, I can see no reason for optimism when it comes to the idea of Senator Kerry being "involved behind the scenes." I don't think it's happening. We may not have forgotten about him, but he seems to have forgotten about us. It's highly unlikely I would support him as a candidate in the future.

Of course, we can only speculate. During the campaign, he had plenty of opportunity (in fact it was requested) that he expose what skull & bones is about and denounce it - both of which he refused to do during interviews by Russert and others asking directly while stumping.

Even Lib Lites were skeptical of Kerry as a candidate during the primaries, but ultimately bought into the "electability" con job foisted on us by sycophants and party operatives alike. Those of us who were deeply concerned and openly questioned Kerry's campaign MESSAGE (after hijacking and then abandoning Dean's anti-war platform) were censured and/or pooh-poohed as lacking faith or even paying close attention!

One day during late spring or early summer, when Kerry w/couldn't speak out clearly against the war, radio talk shows in California were hotly chattering about this expressing their concerns over Kerry's position - and how it would effect his campaign and chances for election, and did the Dems make the wrong choice as a candidate - people were really freaking out, and rightly so, as this was INDEED the most important election in decades. I reported this to the johnkerry list, and was immediately attacked and accused of misrepresenting the facts by a very agressive and new poster. I posted url's for radio archives for people to listen for themselves, and it was deleted. It's a terrible injustice to democracy to censure information. Information is required to fully inform the electorate, warts and all.

Skull and Bones have not been fully exposed although there are quite a few websites that attempt to do this, some are more reliable than others.

What was needed, was for Kerry to do this himself. When early on in the campaign he chose to remain secretive on this matter, he failed the first test of honesty and accountability. Why should we have nominated and supported a candidate who refused to reveal (and denounce) Skull and Bones?

Shame on us for not pressing this concern from the on-set. Let us never make that or a similar mistake again.

I would like to demolish this idiotic thread with its idiotic title. If it continues to appear on Page 1, I just might do it.

"Idiotic Thread" and "Idiotic Title" ? You are free to view this discussion as idiotic, but in the name of democracy, that is if you support democracy, please do not wield autocratic power to delete and censure posts that you do not happen to agree or appreciate.

Censoring Dissent is what the Bush Crime Corporation is about.

Is that what you are about or support?

I believe I smell something rotten right now.

Oh man oh man if this were true, i would be furious. I too dislike Hillary more as the days go by.