Lately, the bunch of guys with guns shooting up the general vicinity and everything in it have been Americans ....

And Obama is about to escalate the practice ....

And the Afghans, who I don't think are cringing in fear of us, are likely to try and do something about it ....

Like they did when the Russians were there ....

And Alexander the Great before them ....

And so ...

Just Americans?

Livyjr, you have some legitimate points to make, you may even be right of a few things in this argument with me. But IMHO you don't help your case or advance the discussion by engaging in this kind of propagandistic cherry-picking.

I don't know if you have been looking lately, Arneoker, but it is we that are in other people's countries with guns ....

It is we who have been doing the brunt of the shooting in other people's countries ....

True, the Russains went to Georgia and did some shooting, but that was in response to the Georgians going in to South Ossetia to do some shooting of their own ....

And unlike us, the Russians left off after a bit and went back home to drink vodka ....

So the ones out there right now doing the brunt of the shooting are us, with some help from our friends in Canada and Britain, of course ....

Britain likes to go and be the tough guy, too ....

Why, they even tried that **** over here a time or two, for all the good it did them in the end ....

Are people shooting back at us because we are there in their countries shooting at them?

Of course they are .....

I would be doing the same thing if they were over here shooting at us ....

BUT THEY ARE NOT!

And so ...

PROPAGANDA?

HUH!

How are facts propaganda, Arneoker?

And who am I propagandizing for, pray tell?

The Russians?

The RED Chinese?

The Martians?

al Qiada?

The Taliban?

And so ...

It's worse than that Snuff...the few Westerners behind the curtain pulling the strings do understand. They don't want
a functional government in Pakistan or Afganistan. If the government was functional, it would already have thrown us out...

Well said, rla ...

Nameing it is what is rational...I feel fearful when I see a gun pointed at me and I take cover...

Do you think, Arneoker, that on the face of the earth today, there is a nation MORE paranoid than America?

Even Russia is less paranoid than America and less afraid of its own shadow ....

Which is really saying something ....

And so ...

Should I be afraid of Chechens then?

If you were propagandizing for someone then it would be more understandable. But I don't think you are. But propaganda is propaganda. And since when does propaganda mean no facts? The best propaganda has a lot of facts, few if any lies or falsehoods, but plenty of opinions stated as facts.

So in Aghanistan and Pakistan it is a matter of Americans shooting people, and no one else. Everyone who says other people are shooting is spouting lies.

In Mexico, Arneoker, there are people shooting people ....

In Colombia, there are people shooting people ...

In IRAQINAM, there are still people shooting each other ....

THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT I AM NOT A MEXICAN, A COLOMBIAN, OR AN IRAQINAMI ....

I am an American citizen ....

What my government does, it does in my name ....

And I get smeared by it in the eyes of the world ....

Are there people in Afghanistnam and Pakistan shooting each other who are not Americans?

I suppose so .....

But they are NOT my concern, Arneoker, just as the Mexicans and Colombians are not my concern ....

What is my concern is what the United States of America is doing in other people's countries that causes all of this strife and bloodshed that benefits people in the USA monetarily ....

And so ...

Do you think, Arneoker, that you will ever have enough blood to slake your thirst for blood after 9-11, which by the way, was committed by Saudis, who happen to be our allies ....

How come we are not bombing Saudi Arabia off of the face of the earth, Arneoker?

They stone women to death over there for adultery, and they behead people for crimes ....

And they gave us the 9-11 terrorists ....

So what are we doing bombing the **** out of Afghanistnam, then?

Because they cannot stop us, and they cannot fight back ....

And so ...

Gee Livyjr, if your argument is actually based upon what I would call isolationism, which is an honorable position to hold (although I don't hold it myself), why not just state that in the first place? All that cherry picking would have been unnecessary.

Have you done something that warrants them being pissed off at you personally, Arneoker?

Have you trespassed against them?

Coveted their goods?

If so, perhaps you are right to fear their retribution ....

Outside of that, however, I would seriously doubt that they would even know your name ....

And so ...

Well this is not just the cherry-picking kind of propaganda. This is also the stating falsehood as truth kind of propaganda. (I don't think you are consciously lying, you are simply stating something as true which you have no basis for. It doesn't matter if you really believe it yourself, which I think you probably do.)

Why not just stick with the "I'm an American and its not my business" line?

I thought you had an opinion concerning how the Russians compared to the U.S.

Because my argument is not based on what you would call isolationism ....

Which you would equate with me having my head in the sand or in my @$$ ...

My argument is based on the simple reality that if you got in your car right now and drove steadily north to my house with the intent to come kick my @$$ and do me harm, that I would be waiting there for you to stick your head up your own @$$ and send you packing back to where you came from ....

To keep that from happening to yourself, the better part of valor for you would be to practice isolationism down there in Virginia by not coming up to New York to try and harm me in my home ....

And the same goes for nations, Arneoker ....

You go out looking for trouble, by God, you are just likely to find some, and when you are not ready for it, to boot ....

I had some brown people over in Viet Nam teach me that lesson is spades ....

And they could guote our Declaration of Independence and Constitution as THEIR JUSTIFICATION for killing us in their homeland ....

Just the way we killed the invading British in ours back when ....

And so ...

We didn't get to first base with trying to convert the Saudis or the Afgans. We were able to buy off the Saudis, but
not the Afgans. Therefore we have to kill off the Afgans and continue to pay through the nose to the Saudis. It is
yet to be determined how many of the Pakistanis we can buy off and how many we'll need to kill off...

I said I thought that even they, as paranoid as they are, were less paranoid than us, Arneoker ....

We think that a handful of ragtags over in Afghanistnam riding around in pick-up trucks and on donkeys are going to come to America and take over the whole country and kill us all ....

All 300 MILLION of us at once ....

Just like we thought the Vietnamese, who had no planes or large ships or technology to speak of, were going to come over here and kill us all ...

And so ...

FALSEHOOD AS TRUTH?

Are you now saying, Arneoker, that the 9-11 hi-jackers WERE NOT Saudis?

The Independent World
May 16, 2009

Rumsfeld's Renegade Unit Blamed for Afghan Deaths

Special Forces group implicated in three incidents that claimed the lives of hundreds of innocent civilians / MarSOC was set up by former defence secretary despite opposition from within the Marine Corps

By Jerome Starkey in Kabul

A single American Special Forces group was behind at least three of Afghanistan's worst civilian casualty incidents, The Independent has learnt, raising fundamental questions about their ongoing role in the conflict.

Troops from the US Marines Corps' Special Operations Command, or MarSOC, were responsible for calling in air strikes in Bala Boluk, in Farah, last week – believed to have killed more than 140 men, women and children – as well as two other incidents in 2007 and 2008. News of MarSOC's involvement in the three incidents comes just days after a Special Forces expert, Lieutenant-General Stanley McChrystal, was named to take over as the top commander of US and Nato troops in Afghanistan. His surprise appointment has prompted speculation that commando counterinsurgency missions will increase in the battle to beat the Taliban.

MarSOC was created three years ago on the express orders of Donald Rumsfeld, US defence secretary at the time, despite opposition from within the Marine Corps and the wider Special Forces community. An article in the Marine Corps Times described the MarSOC troops as "cowboys" who brought shame on the corps.

The first controversial incident involving the unit happened just three weeks into its first deployment to Afghanistan on 4 March 2007. Speeding away from a suicide bomb attack close to the Pakistan border, around 120 men from Fox Company opened fire on civilians near Jalalabad, in Nangahar province. The Marines said they were shot at after the explosion; eyewitnesses said the Americans fired indiscriminately at pedestrians and civilian cars, killing at least 19 people.

The US Army commander in Nangahar at the time, Colonel John Nicholson, said he was "deeply ashamed" and described the incident as "a stain on our honor". The Marines' tour was cut short after a second incident on 9 March in which they allegedly rolled a car and fired on traffic again, and they were flown out of Afghanistan a few weeks later.

The top Special Operations officer at US Central Command, Army Major General Frank Kearney, refuted MarSOC's claims that they had been shot at. "We found no brass that we can confirm that small-arms fire came at them," he said, referring to ammunition casings. "We have testimony from Marines that is in conflict with unanimous testimony from civilians."

At the military hearings on the incident, which were held back in the US, soldiers said the MarSOC troops, who called themselves Taskforce Violence, were gung-ho and hungry to prove themselves in battle. The inquiry also heard testimony suggesting there were tensions between the Marine unit and its US Army counterparts in Nangahar province.

Col Nicholson told the court the unit would routinely stray into areas under his control without telling him, ignoring usual military courtesies. "There had been potentially 25 operations in my area of operations that I, as a commander, was not aware of," he said. Asked about the moment he was told of the March shootout, he added: "My initial reaction was, 'What are they doing out there?' "The three-week military inquiry ultimately spared the Marine unit from criminal charges.

There are around 2,500 troops in MarSOC. Around half are frontline troops, the rest are support and maintenance. Originally the unit was used to plug gaps in the Special Forces world and it has operated in more than 16 countries since being set up by Mr. Rumsfeld in 2006. However, in a recent interview, its commanding officer, Major General Mastin Robeson, revealed he has been ordered to focus on Afghanistan and Pakistan. Today MarSOC answers to the Combined Forces Special Operations Component Command, based in Kabul. That in turn answers to US Forces Afghanistan, which is led by the top US commander, David McKiernan, who is soon to be replaced by General McChrystal.

In August last year, a 20-man MarSOC unit, fighting alongside Afghan commandos, directed fire from unmanned drones, attack helicopters and a cannon-armed Spectre gunship into compounds in Azizabad, in Herat province, leaving more than 90 people dead – many of them children.

And just last week, MarSOC troops called in the Bala Baluk air strikes to rescue an Afghan police patrol that had been ambushed in countryside in Farah province. US officials said two F18 fighter jets and a B1 bomber had swooped because men on the ground were overwhelmed. But villagers said the most devastating bombs were dropped on compounds some distance from the fighting, long after the battle was over, and when Taliban forces were retreating. Afghan officials said up to 147 people were killed, including more than 90 women and children.

US officials dispute the number of people killed in each of the MarSOC incidents, which sparked angry public demonstrations and condemnation from Afghan President Hamid Karzai.

The spokesman for US forces in Afghanistan, Colonel Greg Julian, denied reports that commanders have lost confidence in the Marine unit. "MarSOC was involved in these incidents, but it's not all the same guys. They get the lessons passed on from all of the rotations and experiences. Yet, they are human," he said. "They have the same rules of engagement that everyone has."

The so-called "tactical directive" was introduced last September in the wake of the international uproar that followed the Azizabad deaths. It requires troops to exercise "proportionality, restraint, and utmost discrimination" when calling in air strikes. Claims that bombs were dropped in last week's incident in Farah long after the fighting finished suggest those directives may not have been followed by MarSOC.

Meanwhile, Afghan MPs have called for new laws to regulate the presence of foreign forces in Afghanistan, and limit use of air strikes, house searches and Special Forces operations. Sayed Hussein Alemi Balkhi, one of the chief proponents of the planned legislation, said: "Special Forces, all forces, should be regulated by the law. If they won't accept that we have to ask bigger questions about what they are doing here."

McChrystal's Rise: More Secrets, Less Daylight Tom Hayden : Afghanistan War

His new role can only mean an intensified campaign of secret--and dirty--warfare in the remote villages of Pakistan and Afghanistan.

"Ambush at Afghan school in 'Valley of Death'"

By ANDREW DRAKE and FISNIK ABRASHI, Associated Press Writers

16 MAY 2009

ALIABAD, Afghanistan – The bearded Afghan army officer dropped off bundles of pens and notebooks at the school and asked one boy which he preferred: The Americans or the Taliban?

"I don't know," the boy replied.

But after a short silence other children in the classroom answered for him:

"The Taliban."

Within minutes the discussion was punctuated by an insurgent ambush and the joint U.S.-Afghan patrol became pinned down in this area with forested mountains, caves and ravines that American soldiers call "the Valley of Death."

Heavy machine gun fire blanketed the patrol as troops used smoke grenades and cover fire to escape the ambush.

No one in the patrol was killed in the firefight Saturday.

The Korengal Valley in eastern Afghanistan's Kunar province has a reputation as one of most dangerous areas in the country, where its rugged mountainous terrain makes it a perfect insurgent playground.

The region's infamy for U.S. and Afghan troops dates back to June 2005, when a four-man team of Navy SEALs was caught in a militant ambush.

Three were killed and the fourth was rescued days later by a farmer.

A helicopter carrying American special forces sent to rescue the SEALs was shot down with a rocket-propelled grenade, killing 16 American troops in one of the deadliest single attacks on the U.S. military since the war began here in 2001.

Since then, the insurgents have used the cover of caves and trees to attack small American units patrolling the valley.

Despite years of clashes and airstrikes, U.S. and Afghan forces have failed to subdue the Korengal Valley — one of the most staunchly anti-American regions in Afghanistan.

The tribes here speak a distinct language — Korengali — and adhere to the austere Wahabi brand of Islam most prevalent in Saudi Arabia, and practiced by Osama bin Laden and the Taliban.

The Saturday gunbattle erupted following a humanitarian mission to deliver 60 bags of school supplies to the students, aged 5 to 12-years old.

An Associated Press news team embedded with the U.S. troops dashed back to the American military base nearby on dirt trails.

It was unclear what happened to the students after the joint patrol retreated.

"Unfortunately the people, the Taliban, they don't like us and the coalition forces to have a good friendship with the local people," Afghan army Capt. Mubarak Shah said.

"That's why they started shooting, to make a distance between the Afghan army and the people."

Faced with the growing insurgency, President Barack Obama has ordered another 21,000 troops to join the fight in the hope of reversing the militants' gains over the past few years.

One of the first units to deploy to southern Afghanistan assumed control Saturday of aviation operations at Kandahar Airfield, a statement from the NATO-led force said.

The 82nd Combat Aviation Brigade of the 82nd Airborne Division was the first to arrive as part of the surge of troops ordered to Afghanistan by Obama earlier this year.

The new troops will bolster the record 38,000 American forces already in the country.

___

Associated Press writer Fisnik Abrashi contributed to this report from Kabul.

"Bombing, US strike kill dozens in Pakistan - Bombing in Pakistan city, US strike near Afghan border kill dozens"

By RIAZ KHAN, Associated Press

Last updated: 3:55 p.m., Saturday, May 16, 2009

PESHAWAR, Pakistan -- Bombs destroyed an Internet cafe, wrecked a bus carrying handicapped children and spread panic through Pakistan's main northwestern city on Saturday, killing at least 11 people in a day of carnage across the militancy-plagued region.

An apparent U.S. missile strike annihilated a Taliban raiding party mustering to cross into Afghanistan, officials said, while Pakistani troops claimed another 47 kills in their bid to retake the Swat Valley.

Violence is engulfing Pakistani territory along the Afghan border as American and allied forces crank up the pressure on al-Qaida and Taliban militants entrenched in the forbidding and barely governed mountains and valleys.

Washington and other nations are pouring in billions of dollars in aid and military assistance to prop up the pro-Western government in Islamabad, which on Saturday sought to allay concerns that its nuclear weapons could fall into extremist hands.

The first of two bombs to explode in Peshawar on Saturday was hidden in a car and devastated a street busy with traffic, shoppers and worshippers heading to mosques to pray.

Television images showed several vehicles burning fiercely and a stricken white-and-green bus that had been dropping handicapped children at their homes around the city.

All eight students still on board were injured, one seriously, along with the driver and an assistant, medics and police said.

Four other children and seven adults were killed, and dozens more people injured, they said.

Ahmad Khan, a nine-year-old who had been on the bus, sat shaking on his mother's lap at the Lady Reading hospital as surgeons tried to save the life of a classmate.

He struggled to tell her what had happened to him, throwing up his arms to mimic the explosion, then burst into tears and buried his bandaged head in her arms.

"My child is mentally impaired, but we had hope for him and sent him to school."

"Now I am even more worried for his future," said his veiled mother, Gul Bibi.

"How could any human being do this?"

Safwat Ghayur, a senior police official, said one of several buildings badly damaged by the blast was an Internet cafe -- a favorite target for violent Islamist extremists in Pakistan who consider the Web a source of moral corruption.

Ghayur said the cafe had received several threats and was attacked recently by gunmen.

But it was unclear if any of the bomb victims had been in the cafe or if it was the intended target.

No group claimed responsibility for the car bomb, or a smaller explosion in the evening in a bazaar filled with ladies' clothes stores that police said injured four people.

An Associated Press reporter saw bystanders carrying away a screaming man, his bloodstained clothes shredded by the blast.

Women streamed out of the area clutching shopping bags and wailing children.

Militants have vowed to carry out a constant stream of attacks in Pakistan in retaliation for dozens of American missile attacks on their strongholds in Pakistan's tribal areas.

In the latest strike, Pakistani officials said several missiles hit a religious school and a nearby vehicle on Saturday morning near Mir Ali, a town in the North Waziristan tribal region.

Two intelligence officials, citing reports from agents in the field, said 29 people were killed, including four foreign militants, and dozens more were wounded.

The identity of the victims was not immediately clear, the officials said.

They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly to the media.

However, they said the school was being used as a training camp by Gul Bahadur, a prominent Taliban commander, and that the group had been mustering for a mission in Afghanistan.

President Barack Obama has identified the elimination of militant sanctuaries in Pakistan as critical if America is to crush al-Qaida and turn around its faltering Afghan war effort.

U.S. officials say the missile strikes, launched from remotely piloted aircraft, have killed a string of al-Qaida commanders in the Pakistani border region over the past year.

The area is considered the likely hiding place of Osama bin Laden.

However, Pakistan publicly protests the tactic, arguing it kills too many civilians and undermines efforts to turn tribal leaders away from hard-liners.

The army this week rejected media reports that it was jointly controlling U.S. drone missions over Pakistan.

Further north, the army was preparing to assail Taliban militants entrenched in Mingora, the main town in the Swat Valley, from where nearly a million civilians have fled a three-week-old military offensive.

About 100,000 are housed in sweltering camps south of the war zone.

The army says it has killed more than 800 of the estimated 4,000 militants in the valley and that many more have fled, some after shaving off their beards to blend in with the refugees.

Army spokesman Maj. Gen. Athar Abbas said Saturday that 47 militants had been killed in the previous 24 hours and that one pocket of the valley near the town of Khwazakhela was safe enough for residents to return.

Militants had blocked roads around Mingora to hamper troops encircling the town, he said at a news conference.

The military says it is advancing slowly in Swat to limit civilian casualties.

Public opinion appears to support the offensive, but the mood could quickly turn against the pro-Western government if the fighting drags on and civilian hardship mounts.

Pakistan's army is pressing the United States to give it helicopters, night-vision equipment and its own drones to boost its oft-criticized counterinsurgency capacity.

The government is also trying to counter speculation that extremists could seize Pakistan's nuclear weapons or that the U.S. might intervene to safeguard them.

Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani complained Saturday about an "orchestrated campaign" to "discredit Pakistan's nuclear capability."

"We are determined to retain nuclear deterrence at all cost while ensuring fail-safe security of our nuclear assets," Gilani told lawmakers, according to a statement from his office.

"No amount of coercion, direct or indirect, will ever force Pakistan to compromise on its core security interest."

He didn't identify those involved in the alleged campaign.

------

Associated Press writers Asif Shahzad and Munir Ahmad in Islamabad and Ishtiaq Mahsud in Dera Ismail Khan contributed to this report.

The link works when you cut and paste it. Author Tim Shorrock’s book on the outsourcing of U.S. intelligence, Spies for Hire, by Simon & Schuster is available. Check out the review at Amazon.

"Obama: Early to mull more troops in Afghanistan"

17 MAY 2009

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama says he needs to see how fast Afghanistan can be stabilized and led toward a more democratic government before deciding whether more troops are needed.

In an interview with Newsweek magazine, Obama said the hardest thing he has had to do so far in his administration was to order 17,000 troops to Afghanistan on top of an estimated 38,000 that were already in Afghanistan.

The interview was released on the Web Saturday.

He did not rule out the possibility of sending even more troops, while stressing such a decision was premature at this point and that U.S. military action is not the only answer to bringing stability to the region.

"We have to see our military action in the context of a broader effort to stabilize security in the country, allow national elections to take place in Afghanistan and then provide the space for the vital development work that's needed so that a tolerant and open, democratically elected government is considered far more legitimate than a Taliban alternative," Obama said.

"My strong view is that we are not going to succeed simply by piling on more and more troops," he added.

"The military component is critical to accomplishing that goal, but it is not a sufficient element by itself."

Obama said he wrestled with his options before making the decision in February to order a surge of troops.

He said he was sobered by the idea that many men and women could be harmed but that a surge was unavoidable.

"The starting point was a recognition that the existing trajectory was not working, that the Taliban had made advances, that our presence in Afghanistan was declining in popularity, that the instability along the border region was destabilizing Pakistan as well," Obama said.

Lt. Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal's Asceticism

At the Pentagon, Counterinsurgency Is King

US Predicts 50 Percent Spike In Afghan IEDs
From Seattle PI:

BAGRAM AIR BASE, Afghanistan -- Strategically buried in the middle of dirt roads, packed in culverts and attached to trip wires, a heightened hidden danger awaits the thousands of U.S. troops pouring into Afghanistan to fight a tenacious Taliban.

The U.S. military expects a 50 percent spike this year in roadside and suicide bombings, which surpassed the number of similar strikes in Iraq during the spring. These types of bombs killed 172 coalition forces last year - and far more Afghan civilians - according to military figures.

"We don't hide the truth from them. We tell them if you are going to be killed or injured in Afghanistan, it is probably going to be by an IED," said Command Sgt. Maj. David Puig, 51, of Fort Lewis, Wash.

Read more ....

My Comment: When information like this is released to the public, it is clear that everyone is now expecting the Afghan war to increase exponentially.

Death From Above, Outrage Down Below -- A Commentary
From The New York Times:

IN recent days, the Pentagon has made two major changes in its strategy to defeat the Taliban, Al Qaeda and their affiliates in Afghanistan and Pakistan. First came the announcement that Lt. Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal would take over as the top United States commander in Afghanistan. Next, Pentagon officials said that the United States was giving Pakistan more information on its drone attacks on terrorist targets, while news reports indicated that Pakistani officers would have significant future control over drone routes, targets and decisions to fire weapons (though the military has denied that).

While we agree with Secretary of Defense Robert Gates that "fresh eyes were needed" to review our military strategy in the region, we feel that expanding or even just continuing the drone war is a mistake. In fact, it would be in our best interests, and those of the Pakistani people, to declare a moratorium on drone strikes into Pakistan.

Read more ....

I am still on the fence with this issue. But David Kilcullen and Andrew Exum have some strong views on this subject. For an opposing view on permitting drone strikes in Pakistan, this is a must read.

I have sat in the "GOD SEAT", Snuf, as a sniper with a Nightscope mounted on an M-14 rifle flying low over "FREE FIRE ZONES" in Viet Nam in a UH-1 Army helicopter ...

It is called the "GOD SEAT" for obvious reasons ....

You get to decide unilaterally who gets to live and who doesn't ...

There is no due process of law afforded ....

There certainly is no equal protection of law ....

And they didn't have to do anything ....

It was a capital offense to be caught out in a FREE FIRE ZONE after dark ....

It was murder, Snuf, pure and simple ....

So is killing people from drones, no matter what fancy names or terminology anyone wants to give it ....

You are a lawyer ...

You know that someone cannot legally testify as to what was in another's mind, and yet, that is what is going on here ....

When it kills someone or a bunch of someones, the USA is saying what it was that those people were thinking about at the time they were killed as a justification TO US as to why those people were killed ....

WHICH IS PURE BULL****!

So what is going on here with these drone strikes in Pakistan is that the USA is openly committing murder because it can ....

No trials ....

No evidence of any kind ....

There is what is being condoned, Snuf ....

And when the USA can kill someone someplace with impunity, just because, then it can kill anybody it wants, whenever, for no reason at all, which then means that it can kill anyone of us in here, whenever it wants ....

The citizens of the USA are giving Obama their open consent to kill these people in Pakistan ....

To murder them in cold blood with no due process of law at all available, which is what this recent trouble in Swat Valley was precipitated over - that being that there was no justice for those people outside of the Islamic courts that were just set up in Swat Valley ....

These continued drone strikes convince me that there will never be justice for those people, or any kind of peace, because the drone operators now have the taste of blood in their mouths like a chicken-killing dog does when it kills its first chicken, and they are not going to stop those missions ...

They will always be on the lookout for someone new to kill, and they will always find someone to kill, since there is nothing that stops them from killing whomever ....

Just as every night, that helicopter that carried me about was ordered to go out to find somebody new to kill ....

And so ...

USAians must make it clear to their government that they do not condone the waging of WAR as an instrument
of foreign policy. Laws are not functional that are so concrete and specific as to prevent shooting a human being from a helicopter.

You are saying something there, rla, but the transmission is garbled ...

You make it sound as if you are in favor of shooting human beings from a helicopter, as if they were a type of game animal ...

And so ...

I'm arguing for a proactive foreign policy, constructed in positive language, spelling out the Goals we seek to achieve
in terms of acceptable strategies and tactics and the specific exclussion of unacceptable strategies such as the waging of war and unacceptable tactics such as murder.

As the situation presently stands, any action can be ordered which can be said to protect US National Interest,
without specifying what is US National Interest.

The NATIONAL INTEREST seems to be murdering people in other countries to satisfy an American BLOODLUST ....

And then, there is the money that murdering people in other countries generates for the American business interests ....

If we couldn't murder people in other countries, the American economy would take a hit ....

And so ...

Your heart is in the right place, rla ....

But I am not sure that it is in the right time ....

And so ...

This is where I differ from you RIA. I'm not arguing for a proactive foreign policy. That leads to a continuation of more of
the same. I am arguing against EMPIRE.

Yes, I've been told that consistently for at least 60 years...You'd think I would eventually start believing it but I don't...

I'm also arguing against EMPIRE and I'm arguing for seeking Peace, Prosperity, Liberty and Wellness with research-based methods of Human Relations, Marketing and the Life Sciences, within a social system protected by a government of Law...

Like rla, Snuf, you heart too is in the right place ....

But the wrong century, perhaps ....

And so ...

Well, rla ....

I'm not complaining as to where your heart is ....

I just wish I could do more about the times that it is in ....

And so ...

He or she who would propose bears the necessary burden of proof, rla .....

Your proposed system seems very complicated to me ....

Hard to understand, which translates out as very difficult to implement ....

And right now in the USA, base emotion seems to be in the ascendent ....

Reason is in decline ....

And so ....

We are either in End Times or we're not...My plan is to continue to assume that we're not...

The END TIMES are simply the end of something that came before ....

The END TIMES are not the end of everything ....

And they are not the end of all people ...

They are the beginning of what comes next ....

And so ....

IN EXCHANGE FOR AMERICAN MONEY, PAKISTAN IS WILLING TO DESTROY ITSELF ....

And so ...

"Bloody urban battles could lie ahead in Pakistan - Pakistani forces enter major towns in Swat in what could prove bloody urban battles"

By ASIF SHAHZAD, Associated Press

Last updated: 11:46 a.m., Sunday, May 17, 2009

ISLAMABAD -- Pakistani security forces fought Taliban militants on the outskirts of the main city in the northwest's Swat Valley and entered two other Taliban-held towns there, the army said Sunday, foreshadowing what could become bloody urban battles.

A top government official said the offensive near Afghanistan had already killed more than 1,000 Taliban fighters, while a group of pro-government religious leaders endorsed the operation but condemned U.S. missile strikes in the northwest.

The developments underscored Pakistan's resolve and frustration in its battle against militancy.

Washington has pressed Islamabad to crack down on al-Qaida and Taliban strongholds along the Afghan frontier, saying the militants threaten not only U.S. and NATO troops in Afghanistan but also nuclear-armed Pakistan's future.

But many in Pakistan believe the militancy here has metastasized because of U.S. intervention in Afghanistan.

Recent Taliban forays into a district just 60 miles (100 kilometers) from the capital, Islamabad, seem to have swayed many Pakistanis to support the most recent military operation, but that could easily change if the toll on the hundreds of thousands of civilians displaced mounts, and if more U.S. missiles strikes stoke greater popular discontent.

In giving the 1,000-plus death toll Sunday, Interior Minister Rehman Malik said the operation in Swat and surrounding areas would "continue till the last Taliban are flushed out."

It was not possible to independently verify the figure.

The territories bombarded over the past three weeks are now too dangerous for journalists to freely visit.

In a statement Sunday afternoon, the army said 25 militants and a soldier died in the previous 24 hours.

Security forces were facing off with militants in "intense fire engagements" on the outskirts of Swat's main town, Mingora, where many of the estimated 4,000 Taliban fighters in the valley are believed to be holed up, the statement said.

It also said security forces had surrounded and entered the towns of Matta and Kanju to take on the militants, and it requested civilians still in those areas stay away from the Taliban hide-outs.

Troops were making gains in remote Piochar area, the rear base of Swat Taliban leader Maulana Fazlullah, it added.

"The operation is going in the right direction as we had planned," Malik said in a televised news conference from Mardan, where he went to relief camps to see some of the new refugees.

"I cannot give a time but we will try (to complete the operation) at the earliest."

The military did not detail how many ground troops were involved in the latest advances.

Pakistan's army is geared toward fighting a conventional battle again longtime rival India on the plains of the Punjab region using tanks and artillery, and it has limited experience battling guerrillas in urban settings.

Its most recent major offensive, in the Bajur tribal region, drew praise from U.S. officials for dismantling a virtual Taliban mini-state but was criticized for the large amount of destruction it caused.

The number of civilians killed in Bajur is unknown.

At a convention in Islamabad, hundreds of religious scholars and leaders -- many of them Barelvis, a Sufi-influenced strain of Sunni Islam -- denounced suicide attacks and other Taliban tactics in urging the government to continue the operation until peace is restored.

The attendees also blasted the U.S. missile strikes, saying Pakistan should take up the matter at the United Nations.

"Internally, terrorists were attempting to weaken Pakistan by spreading terrorism and killing people and on the other hand drone attacks are on ..."

"This is a conspiracy against Pakistan and we will foil it," said Sahibzada Fazl Karim, one of the speakers.

Most Pakistanis are relatively moderate Muslims, and many subscribe to Sufi-influenced traditions.

However, hard-line versions of Islam have a significant following here, though the Taliban's approach is unusually extreme.

U.S. officials say the missile strikes are a critical tool in killing top militants, but Pakistan has protested them, though many analysts believe the two countries have a secret deal allowing the attacks.

The Taliban's ability to overrun Swat, once a premier Pakistani tourist destinations, had proved particularly embarrassing to the Pakistani military and the weak civilian government.

Many of the main militant safe havens, however, are in Pakistan's semiautonomous tribal areas, with South Waziristan serving as the primary base for Pakistani Taliban chief Baitullah Mehsud.

Britain's Sunday Times reported that Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari said military action would follow in the tribal belt.

"We're going to go into Waziristan, all these regions, with army operations," the newspaper quoted Zardari as saying in an interview.

"Swat is just the start."

"It's a larger war to fight."

Zardari's spokesmen could not immediately be reached Sunday.

Malik did not respond directly when asked about a potential extension of the military action.

"Wherever the government requires an operation, we will, God willing, do that," he said.

The ongoing operation has involved fighting in the Lower Dir and Buner districts that dates back to last month, but it began in full force in Swat in early May.

Of the nearly 1 million civilians who have fled the affected areas, about 100,000 are now staying in sweltering relief camps.

The military has warned that some militants are trying to flee as well, some after shaving off their beards to blend in with refugees.

The military does not explain how it differentiates civilian from militant killings, and it has not released a civilian death toll for the Swat operation, but witnesses have reported many innocent people have been wounded or killed.

In Pakistan's southern city of Karachi, meanwhile, police said a tip off led them to arrest four alleged militants of Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, a banned outfit linked to both the Taliban and al-Qaida.

The men are suspected of planning attacks on high-value targets in Karachi, senior police officer Chaudhry Mohammad Aslam said.

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Associated Press writers Ashraf Khan in Karachi and Zarar Khan in Islamabad contributed to this report

Washington's reporters and pundits make no secret of their enthusiasm for our new president. Obama even joked about it the other day at the journalists' traditional roast, averring, "All of you voted for me." You bet they did, and even though everybody thought this was hilarious, the implications for coverage of American foreign policy in the mainstream news media are ominous.

As President Obama escalates the war in Afghanistan and dives into the quagmire of Pakistan, will these openly pro-Obama journalists give him a free ride? Will they report critically on Obama's war – when they failed to do so for most of the Bush era?

Don't bet on it.

Outnumbered US Troops Defend Afghan Frontier

Zardari Vows to Expand War Beyond Swat Pakistan: Offensive Kills 1,000+ Alleged Militants Pakistan Is Rapidly Adding Nuclear Arms, US Says Obama: All Options Open on Taking Pakistan's Nukes