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jimiray
QUOTE(Livyjr @ May 20 2009, 04:32 PM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ May 20 2009, 02:23 PM) *
Yes, I already knew that the government lies.

To quote a character in that great new movie, "Hannah Montana, the Movie", I haven't been living under a rock.

But that doesn't mean that they lie all of the time.

QUOTE(Livyjr @ May 20 2009, 01:06 PM) *
This opinion refers only to the part of the record that the government has reluctantly agreed may be made public.

It does not attempt to recount even that limited range of data in its entirety; the governmental deceit mentioned here is illustrative - not exhaustive.

October 27, 2003

Lynn N. Hughes
United States District Judge

Have you ever been able to discern when they are not lying?

I haven't myself ....

And so ...


If the lips are moving ? They are lying .... period !!
rla
QUOTE(jimiray @ May 20 2009, 06:33 PM) *
QUOTE(Livyjr @ May 20 2009, 04:32 PM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ May 20 2009, 02:23 PM) *
Yes, I already knew that the government lies.

To quote a character in that great new movie, "Hannah Montana, the Movie", I haven't been living under a rock.

But that doesn't mean that they lie all of the time.

QUOTE(Livyjr @ May 20 2009, 01:06 PM) *
This opinion refers only to the part of the record that the government has reluctantly agreed may be made public.

It does not attempt to recount even that limited range of data in its entirety; the governmental deceit mentioned here is illustrative - not exhaustive.

October 27, 2003

Lynn N. Hughes
United States District Judge

Have you ever been able to discern when they are not lying?

I haven't myself ....

And so ...


If the lips are moving ? They are lying .... period !!


Actually governments don't lie--persons representing the government often lie (in which case they are misrepsenting
the government).
Snuffysmith
Watching Obama Morph Into Dick Cheney by Paul Craig Roberts
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ May 20 2009, 07:27 PM) *
Actually governments don't lie--persons representing the government often lie (in which case they are misrepsenting the government).

QUOTE(jimiray @ May 20 2009, 05:33 PM) *
If the lips are moving ?

They are lying .... period !!

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT - SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS

United States of America V. Edwin Paul Wilson, Criminal Case H-82-139

America did not defeat the Axis because it locked up Japanese Americans.

America did not defeat the Soviet Union because it tried to lock up its philosophic fellow-travelers here.

America will not defeat Libyan terrorism by double-crossing a part-time, informal government agent.

The government's preparation, presentation, and preservation of false evidence are not the process that is due from the government.

As Justice Sutherland observed, while a prosecutor "may strike hard blows, he is not at liberty to strike foul ones."

"It is as much his duty to refrain from improper methods calculated to produce a wrongful conviction as it is to use every legitimate means to bring about a just one."

Berger v. United States, 295 U.S. 78, 88 (1935) (George Sutherland).

The government has no legitimate interest in buying or presenting false evidence from outsiders - it has less than none in lying to the court itself.

The government may be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt by legal evidence that Wilson is guilty of violating the law.

It will have that opportunity because Edwin Paul Wilson's conviction will be vacated.

October 27, 2003

Lynn N. Hughes
United States District Judge
Livyjr
QUOTE(Livyjr @ May 21 2009, 04:52 AM) *
As Justice Sutherland observed, while a prosecutor "may strike hard blows, he is not at liberty to strike foul ones."

"It is as much his duty to refrain from improper methods calculated to produce a wrongful conviction as it is to use every legitimate means to bring about a just one."


Berger v. United States, 295 U.S. 78, 88 (1935) (George Sutherland).

1935 ......

If I am recalling the sequence of events in here correctly, rla, that is the same year that you made your debut performance here on this earth of ours ...

Between then and now, we seem to have gone down a slope, as opposed to ever upwards ....

Viet Nam was ONE GREAT BIG SHINING LIE from front end to back ....

IRAQINAM was a pack of lies ....

Afghanistnam seems to be a mountain of lies ....

And who does Obama embrace as his head of military operations in Afghanistnam?

Why, somebody from that murky SHADOW WORLD where all of these lies are propagated from ....

Snuf has it dead on the money right above here, in my estimation ....

Barack Hussein Obama is a willing, adoring student at the knee of none other than Richard Bruce "DICK" Cheney ....

Which tells me that the mountain of lies from "OUR GOVERNMENT" is only going to keep getting higher and higher, until it collapses of its own weight like a HOUSE OF CARDS ...

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(Livyjr @ May 21 2009, 04:52 AM) *
The government has no legitimate interest in buying or presenting false evidence from outsiders - it has less than none in lying to the court itself.

And yet, that is what the SHADOW OPERATORS in Afghanistnam are doing, according to the reports out of Afghanistnam ....

Buying or presenting false evidence from outsiders ....

Some warlord wants us to kill off his competition, or maybe some drug dealer wants a clear field, so they "contract" with our HUNTER-KILLER SQUADS, or DEATH SQUADS to make it happen ....

And in come the airstrikes ....

And LE VIOLA!

The deed is done ....

Just BID-NESS, after all ....

Viet Nam all over again ....

Shades of the PHOENIX PROGRAM rise up in Afghanistnam out of the ashes of that program of wanton murder in Viet Nam ....

And there is doodly-squat that weak sister Hamid Karzai in Afghanistnam can do about it ....

Nor can we, actually, who are but spectators over here, as opposed to citizens of a republic ...

Human life is a marketable commodity ....

Something to make money off of if you are the United States of America ....

Or its "representatives" ....

And so ...
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ May 21 2009, 06:13 AM) *
QUOTE(Livyjr @ May 21 2009, 04:52 AM) *
The government has no legitimate interest in buying or presenting false evidence from outsiders - it has less than none in lying to the court itself.

And yet, that is what the SHADOW OPERATORS in Afghanistnam are doing, according to the reports out of Afghanistnam ....

Buying or presenting false evidence from outsiders ....

Some warlord wants us to kill off his competition, or maybe some drug dealer wants a clear field, so they "contract" with our HUNTER-KILLER SQUADS, or DEATH SQUADS to make it happen ....

And in come the airstrikes ....

And LE VIOLA!

The deed is done ....

Just BID-NESS, after all ....

Viet Nam all over again ....

Shades of the PHOENIX PROGRAM rise up in Afghanistnam out of the ashes of that program of wanton murder in Viet Nam ....

And there is doodly-squat that weak sister Hamid Karzai in Afghanistnam can do about it ....

Nor can we, actually, who are but spectators over here, as opposed to citizens of a republic ...

Human life is a marketable commodity ....

Something to make money off of if you are the United States of America ....

Or its "representatives" ....

And so ...


I see nothing here to disagree with. It seems obvious that big business owns all three branches of our government.
Arneoker
QUOTE(Livyjr @ May 20 2009, 05:38 PM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ May 20 2009, 01:59 PM) *
Maybe Marine's eyes were open, at least to some extent...

Anyway, if he was defeated so ignominously as you say, it would seem that all of his document and link posting didn't save him.

Which was kind of my point.

Maybe Marine's eyes were not open enough, Arneoker ....

Which is pretty much my point ...

And so ...

Actually I think it apparent that they were open wide enough. After all, he is not here. But I for one think he doesn't have to stay away, we are all wrong once in a while, even quite wrong, and I for one would be willing to be a good sport about it, if he would be. And he doesn't have to bother with anyone who isn't.
Arneoker
QUOTE(rla @ May 20 2009, 09:27 PM) *
QUOTE(jimiray @ May 20 2009, 06:33 PM) *
QUOTE(Livyjr @ May 20 2009, 04:32 PM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ May 20 2009, 02:23 PM) *
Yes, I already knew that the government lies.

To quote a character in that great new movie, "Hannah Montana, the Movie", I haven't been living under a rock.

But that doesn't mean that they lie all of the time.

QUOTE(Livyjr @ May 20 2009, 01:06 PM) *
This opinion refers only to the part of the record that the government has reluctantly agreed may be made public.

It does not attempt to recount even that limited range of data in its entirety; the governmental deceit mentioned here is illustrative - not exhaustive.

October 27, 2003

Lynn N. Hughes
United States District Judge

Have you ever been able to discern when they are not lying?

I haven't myself ....

And so ...


If the lips are moving ? They are lying .... period !!


Actually governments don't lie--persons representing the government often lie (in which case they are misrepsenting
the government).

What is the government but people who represent it? And sometimes not everyone is on the same page, and sometimes that is not unintentional. I may not have quite the knowledge of some, but I have learned a few things.

But don't let me bother anyone with that kind of thing.
rla
This opinion refers only to the part of the record that the government has reluctantly agreed may be made public.[/size]

It does not attempt to recount even that limited range of data in its entirety; the governmental deceit mentioned here is illustrative - not exhaustive.

October 27, 2003

Lynn N. Hughes
United States District Judge[/color][/b][/quote]
Have you ever been able to discern when they are not lying?

I haven't myself ....

And so ...
[/quote]

If the lips are moving ? They are lying .... period !!
[/quote]

Actually governments don't lie--persons representing the government often lie (in which case they are misrepsenting
the government).
[/quote]
What is the government but people who represent it? And sometimes not everyone is on the same page, and sometimes that is not unintentional. I may not have quite the knowledge of some, but I have learned a few things.

But don't let me bother anyone with that kind of thing.
[/quote]

The government is the Constitution, laws and regulations, property acquired through taxation and the people who
represent it, as well as the intangible worth of its reputation and good will...It is in fact, an open system...
Arneoker
QUOTE(rla @ May 21 2009, 09:26 AM) *
The government is the Constitution, laws and regulations, property acquired through taxation and the people who
represent it, as well as the intangible worth of its reputation and good will...It is in fact, an open system...

But to some people discussion is not an open system. In fact you sometimes get the impression that trying to open it up is a mark of insufferable rudeness.
rla
QUOTE(Arneoker @ May 21 2009, 08:30 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ May 21 2009, 09:26 AM) *
The government is the Constitution, laws and regulations, property acquired through taxation and the people who
represent it, as well as the intangible worth of its reputation and good will...It is in fact, an open system...

But to some people discussion is not an open system. In fact you sometimes get the impression that trying to open it up is a mark of insufferable rudeness.


I didn't understand your last post, Arne.
Arneoker
QUOTE(rla @ May 21 2009, 09:49 AM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ May 21 2009, 08:30 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ May 21 2009, 09:26 AM) *
The government is the Constitution, laws and regulations, property acquired through taxation and the people who
represent it, as well as the intangible worth of its reputation and good will...It is in fact, an open system...

But to some people discussion is not an open system. In fact you sometimes get the impression that trying to open it up is a mark of insufferable rudeness.


I didn't understand your last post, Arne.

Okay.

Bear in mind that this thread has put me into a mood to be very cryptic. I really don't want to be the only one demonstrating more than a rudimentary thought process except for those times someone like Taz or IS4U makes a visit. Not worth the time and effort...

Or you could just ponder the words of Jesus Christ, "He who has an ear let him hear."
rla
QUOTE(Arneoker @ May 21 2009, 08:30 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ May 21 2009, 09:26 AM) *
The government is the Constitution, laws and regulations, property acquired through taxation and the people who
represent it, as well as the intangible worth of its reputation and good will...It is in fact, an open system...

But to some people discussion is not an open system. In fact you sometimes get the impression that trying to open it up is a mark of insufferable rudeness.


An open system is any entity that takes in resources from its environment. So I see this as an open discussion in that anyone may participate. Apparently, it is not a very potent system in that it hasn't drawn in many participants...
Arneoker
QUOTE(rla @ May 21 2009, 10:30 AM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ May 21 2009, 08:30 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ May 21 2009, 09:26 AM) *
The government is the Constitution, laws and regulations, property acquired through taxation and the people who
represent it, as well as the intangible worth of its reputation and good will...It is in fact, an open system...

But to some people discussion is not an open system. In fact you sometimes get the impression that trying to open it up is a mark of insufferable rudeness.


An open system is any entity that takes in resources from its environment. So I see this as an open discussion in that anyone may participate. Apparently, it is not a very potent system in that it hasn't drawn in many participants...

Have you wondered why it hasn't drawn in many participants? Do you or anyone who has wondered why care to offer ideas other than opinions on the defects of potential participants?
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ May 21 2009, 07:01 AM) *
Actually I think it apparent that they were open wide enough.

After all, he is not here.

But I for one think he doesn't have to stay away, we are all wrong once in a while, even quite wrong, and I for one would be willing to be a good sport about it, if he would be.

And he doesn't have to bother with anyone who isn't.

Your first two sentences are incongruent, Arneoker ...

Or you are implying that Marine has sense to stay away from here for some reason ....

Maybe because this forum is filled with village idiots and jerks ....

I don't believe, Arneoker, that Marine and I were ever on the same side of any issue ....

Which is not to say that I did not respect Marine, or agree with him on some levels, anyway ....

But both sides of an argument can't both win, unless they are both equally invalid ...

It could be said that Marine bet it all on the bob-tail nag ....

And tazvil04 bet on the bay ....

And Marine's horse didn't win .....

So Marine went away .....

And so it goes, Arneoker ....

And as you say, at any time, Marine could come back ....

I certainly would welcome him ....

But I don't think Marine can do it, because he would have to eat crow ....

And I don't believe he has that gear in his gearbox ....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ May 21 2009, 07:05 AM) *
I may not have quite the knowledge of some, but I have learned a few things.

But don't let me bother anyone with that kind of thing.

You're handing us out your knowledge all the time, Arneoker ....

Sometimes by the peck basket ....

Sometimes by the pint ...

Sometimes by the whole bushel ....

That is what draws us to these conversations, afterall ....

For $7.95 a year, we get to drink at the fount of your wisdom ....

And so ....

That's a pretty good bargain compared to cable, Arneoker, when you think on it ....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ May 21 2009, 07:30 AM) *
But to some people discussion is not an open system.

The CLAQUE!

But I believe that the majority of those people are gone now, Arneoker ....

Ever since you shut down that one thread there ....

That was the death knell, it seems ....

Things have been calm, since then ....

Which I quite frankly don't mind at all ....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ May 21 2009, 07:54 AM) *
Bear in mind that this thread has put me into a mood to be very cryptic.[/size]

I really don't want to be the only one demonstrating more than a rudimentary thought process except for those times someone like Taz or IS4U makes a visit.

Not worth the time and effort...

What he is saying, rla, is that he and tazvil04 and IS4U are way smarter than anyone else in here, and especially me, of course ....

Arneoker believes that compared to him and tazvil04 and IS4U, we are nothing but a bunch of jerks and village idiots ....

That is what he is being cryptic about ....

He thinks you are stupid, rla ....

And so ...
Arneoker
QUOTE(Livyjr @ May 21 2009, 03:51 PM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ May 21 2009, 07:30 AM) *
But to some people discussion is not an open system.

The CLAQUE!

But I believe that the majority of those people are gone now, Arneoker ....

Ever since you shut down that one thread there ....

That was the death knell, it seems ....

Things have been calm, since then ....

Which I quite frankly don't mind at all ....

And so ...

And so there can be more of a closed system?
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ May 21 2009, 07:54 AM) *
Or you could just ponder the words of Jesus Christ, "He who has an ear let him hear."

rla isn't all that big on scripture, Arneoker ....

And so ...
Arneoker
QUOTE(Livyjr @ May 21 2009, 03:57 PM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ May 21 2009, 07:54 AM) *
Bear in mind that this thread has put me into a mood to be very cryptic.[/size]

I really don't want to be the only one demonstrating more than a rudimentary thought process except for those times someone like Taz or IS4U makes a visit.

Not worth the time and effort...

What he is saying, rla, is that he and tazvil04 and IS4U are way smarter than anyone else in here, and especially me, of course ....

Arneoker believes that compared to him and tazvil04 and IS4U, we are nothing but a bunch of jerks and village idiots ....

That is what he is being cryptic about ....

He thinks you are stupid, rla ....

And so ...

Actually I chose my words more carefully than that. I did not use such words as "having" or "possessing". Just so people who might be reading this will know.
Snuffysmith

Is Obama's New Afghan Commander a Violator of the Geneva Conventions?

Tom Hayden, TheNation.com

ForeignPolicy: Allegations emerge that Gen. Stanley McChrystal oversaw secret prisons that violated human rights laws.
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ May 21 2009, 01:58 PM) *
And so there can be more of a closed system?

I think that it is very open since they all left, myself .....

Like a breath of fesh air, actually ....

Somebody trying to claw your eyes out of your head because you don't kiss the @$$ of Obama ....

That would close down discussion, alright ...

Why on earth would we want to return to that, Arneoker?

And any of that CLAQUE can return any time that they like, Arneoker ....

There is nobody left in here who would try to keep them out ...

And so ...
Arneoker
QUOTE(Livyjr @ May 21 2009, 04:06 PM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ May 21 2009, 01:58 PM) *
And so there can be more of a closed system?

I think that it is very open since they all left, myself .....

Like a breath of fesh air, actually ....

Somebody trying to claw your eyes out of your head because you don't kiss the @$$ of Obama ....

That would close down discussion, alright ...

Why on earth would we want to return to that, Arneoker?

And any of that CLAQUE can return any time that they like, Arneoker ....

There is nobody left in here who would try to keep them out ...

And so ...

We open things up with people with certain views leaving? Interesting perspective!
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ May 21 2009, 02:02 PM) *
Actually I chose my words more carefully than that.

Well, of course you do ....

You are an accomplished wordsmith ....

Polished at it, in fact ....

And choosing your words very carefully is the very essence of being CRYPTIC, afterall .....

Just so people who might be reading this will know .....

Because CRYPTIC is not a word in common usage, anymore ....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ May 21 2009, 02:09 PM) *
We open things up with people with certain views leaving?

Interesting perspective!

We open things up by losing the crowd that was closing things down by trying to impose their wills on us to stifle dissent ...

And ALL of those people CHOSE to leave, of their own volition ....

Well, maybe not tomhye ....

I'm not sure he had any volition left when he self-destructed on the air in so spectacular a manner as he did ...

But all of the others did ....

They got all huffy and puffy because people in here had THE GALL and THE TEMERITY to question their MESSIAH, Obama ...

And when they could not shut up the questioning, they got even more huffy and puffy and took all their toys and left ....

WAH! WAH! WAH!

The last straw for the CLAQUE seems to have been when YOU closed down that HATE THREAD ....

So if anybody drove them away, Arneoker, it was you .....

And so be it, say I ....

And so ...
rla
QUOTE(Arneoker @ May 21 2009, 09:34 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ May 21 2009, 10:30 AM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ May 21 2009, 08:30 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ May 21 2009, 09:26 AM) *
The government is the Constitution, laws and regulations, property acquired through taxation and the people who
represent it, as well as the intangible worth of its reputation and good will...It is in fact, an open system...

But to some people discussion is not an open system. In fact you sometimes get the impression that trying to open it up is a mark of insufferable rudeness.


An open system is any entity that takes in resources from its environment. So I see this as an open discussion in that anyone may participate. Apparently, it is not a very potent system in that it hasn't drawn in many participants...

Have you wondered why it hasn't drawn in many participants? Do you or anyone who has wondered why care to offer ideas other than opinions on the defects of potential participants?


I can't imagine why the multitudes wouldn't flock to hear you and Livyjr and me shoot the $hit...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ May 21 2009, 04:31 PM) *
I can't imagine why the multitudes wouldn't flock to hear you and Livyjr and me shoot the $hit...

You're a kick, rla ...

Like Bach walking 300 miles to hear Buxtehoude play the organ, I would walk a thousand miles to hear you preach a sermon ...

And actually, rla, the multitudes do come to this forum to read the posts ....

This post right now has 1807 hits ....

And there were 37 guests visiting the site just now who are not members ....

And while that might not count as a multitude, I notice that whenever I am in here, which is the only times I can check, there is a pretty steady readership ....

My veteran's thread has 161,520 hits, up from 158,722 the last time I checked ...

IH's financial Mirage thread where you post has 6,405 hits ...

So it is not like there are just three people keeping this forum alive, notwithstanding Arneoker's HYPERBOLE ....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ May 21 2009, 07:54 AM) *
Bear in mind that this thread has put me into a mood to be very cryptic.

AND WITH GOOD REASON ...

OMNIUS IS WATCHING OUR EVERY MOVE ....

THE COMPUTER OVERMIND IS GOING TO GET YOU IF YOU HAVE A STRAY THOUGHT IN YOUR HEAD ....

AND IT DON'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE IF YOU WERE INNOCENT OR GUILTY ....

TO THE COMPUTER OVERMIND, YOU ARE JUST AN INFRA-RED DOT MOVING AROUND ON A CRT ...

NO LONGER HUMAN ....

JUST ANOTHER MOVING TARGET FOR SPORT ....

And so ...

"Real Soldiers Love Their Robot Brethren"


Jeremy Hsu, Staff Writer, LiveScience.com

Thu May 21, 11:00 am ET

Human warriors have long spoken of the bonds forged in combat and of becoming a "band of brothers."

The fact that some of those fellow soldiers are made of metal has not discouraged human feelings toward them.

Thousands of robots now fight with humans on modern battlefields that resemble scenes from science fiction movies such as "Terminator Salvation."

But the real world poses a more complex situation than humans versus robots, and has added new twists to the psychology of war.

"One of the psychologically interesting things is that these systems aren't designed to promote intimacy, and yet we're seeing these bonds being built with them," said Peter Singer, a leading defense analyst at the Brookings Institution and author of "Wired for War: The Robotics Revolution and Conflict in the 21st Century" (Penguin Press HC, 2009).

Singer highlights many accounts of human soldiers feeling strong affection for their robots - especially on the Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD) teams where Packbots and Talon robots undertake the risk of disabling improvised explosives planted by insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan.


One EOD soldier brought in a robot for repairs with tears in his eyes and asked the repair shop if it could put "Scooby-Doo" back together.

Despite being assured that he would get a new robot, the soldier remained inconsolable.

He only wanted Scooby-Doo.

Robot in arms

The United States military sees robots as tireless warriors capable of striking fear into enemies, and is not shy about finding inspiration from "Terminator."

"One scientist said he was trying to build the Hunter-Killer drone from 'Terminator,'" Singer told LiveScience.


Terror aside, Singer and other experts point out how battlefield robots have also proved capable of inspiring love from their human comrades, such as the EOD soldier.

"It sounds silly, but you have to remember that he's been through the most psychologically searing experience: battle," Singer said.

"That machine has saved him time and time again."

Sometimes such bonds led soldiers to risk their lives for their robots, in a strange inverse of the idea that robots would spare human lives.

Singer recounted another EOD soldier who ran 164 feet under machine gun fire to retrieve a robot that had been knocked out of action.

And several teams have given their robots promotions, Purple Heart awards for being wounded in combat, and even a military funeral.

This attachment to robots stems in part from the human brain's mirror-neuron system, which fires up whenever watching the movement of someone or something, Singer noted.

The system helps form the foundation for empathy and understanding the mindset of another being, but can also lead people to project personalities and emotions onto objects.


Eyes in the sky

The growing numbers of battlefield robots have also changed the human relationship to war itself, especially as the United States has already fielded more than 12,000 ground robots and more than 7,000 flying drones in regions such as Iraq and Afghanistan.

Armed drones in particular have proved effective in loitering over target areas for hours until targets come in sight, and then firing their missiles at suspected insurgents - all while being controlled by human operators sitting thousands of miles away in Nevada.

The drone operator's war often looks surreal and disconnected from reality, given that they coordinate strikes via online chat and view their targets as small infrared figures moving around.


Many media stories have referenced the example of a 19-year-old drone operator, who honed his skills from playing Xbox to become a top operator and eventually an instructor.

That has led some members of the U.S. military to look down on drone operators for not sharing the risks of ground forces or even pilots, as Singer discovered.

One Special Operations officer remained enraged years later by a "bogus weather call" that prevented a drone from supporting his unit in Afghanistan.

His contempt for the Predator operators was such that he expressed more respect for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi - the insurgent mastermind who was behind hundreds of bombings and killings.

Still, Singer said that the operators "know lives are at stake," and take pride in the role that they play in helping demoralize the enemy.

And the U.S. military has clearly invested much of its future in the capabilities of robots.

When Singer asked one U.S. Air Force officer about how he envisioned the psychological impact of the drones on the enemy, the officer compared the Taliban and Al Qaeda militants to the human resistance fighters in the "Terminator" movies - hiding in their bunkers and caves from the technological onslaught.


How to fight a robot

The ever-watchful eyes in the sky have clearly unnerved human fighters to some extent.

The New York Times reported in March that some Pakistani locals had given up drinking Lipton tea for fear of the teabags acting as homing beacons for drones.

And the Los Angeles Times noted that a six-month campaign of Predator strikes has sown distrust within Al Qaeda, so that the militants have begun violently purging their own ranks.

However, Singer and others point out that the use of robots may also make the United States look weak, even cowardly to cultures in the Middle East and elsewhere.

People of those cultures see a powerful nation that wages distant war with incredible technologies but refuses to risk its own troops, and they grow defiant.


"One side thinks that its very duty is to do everything to bring its soldiers home to its families," Singer noted.

"For the other side, the very act of dying is almost the main goal."

Singer spoke with two insurgents for his book, and they acknowledged the technological prowess of U.S. robots and drones.

But they also said they were not at all intimidated - one with an engineering background expressed eagerness to get his hands on his own robot.

Previous attempts to rely solely on technological shock and awe through "Gunboat Diplomacy" and airpower have not proven incredibly successful in the long run, said Douglas Peifer, a researcher at the Air War College of Maxwell Air Force Base in Alabama.

"No doubt robots and unmanned combat systems will discourage our opponents and minimize our losses," Peifer said in an article for Small Wars Journal.

"But betting that the latest iteration of revolutionary technology will magically compel a resolute enemy to come to terms is unwise."


On the modern battlefield, Iraqi insurgents have adapted by targeting EOD robots and capturing robots for their own use.

U.S. soldiers have even encountered crude but innovative insurgent bots, Singer explained in his book - such as a remote-controlled skateboard rigged with explosives that scooted along as though pushed by the wind.

Guess who has the terminators

"We don't have to be in the year 2018 with Skynet and the terminators all around us, for those huge policy and military dilemmas to take form," Singer said.

"They're already here."

As the U.S. military and others rapidly deploy a growing swarm of robots on sea, land and air, some experts cited in "Wired for War" could not help but make another "Terminator" comparison.

They warned that the United States runs the risk of looking like the evil empire from Star Wars, if not the heartless Skynet and its army of relentless terminator robots.


Still, robot researchers and the military continue to embrace ideas born from "Terminator" and science fiction.

Singer attended one presentation on the Energetically Autonomous Tactical Robot (EATR) - a long-range robot that refuels itself on "grass, broken wood, furniture, dead bodies," according to a list reeled off by one scientist.

"I really hope Skynet doesn't learn about that kind of system," Singer said.
rla
What kind of marching orders did Obama give his new General? My fantasy is that he told him to go forth and
kill as many heavy-bearded Muslims as was possible in one year because that is all that is being budgeted for.
That will give us one year transition time to start bringing down the deficit before the end of his first term...
Arneoker
QUOTE(rla @ May 22 2009, 09:31 AM) *
What kind of marching orders did Obama give his new General? My fantasy is that he told him to go forth and
kill as many heavy-bearded Muslims as was possible in one year because that is all that is being budgeted for.
That will give us one year transition time to start bringing down the deficit before the end of his first term...

At least you admit that is a fantasy.
Snuffysmith

Gen. McChrystal, Grim Reaper: Obama's New Afghan Commander Will Send Death Toll Soaring

Tom Engelhardt, Tomdispatch.com

ForeignPolicy: Stanley McChrystal comes from a world where killing by any means is the norm and a blanket of govt. secrecy provides the necessary protection.
rla
QUOTE(Snuffysmith @ May 22 2009, 09:07 AM) *
Gen. McChrystal, Grim Reaper: Obama's New Afghan Commander Will Send Death Toll Soaring

Tom Engelhardt, Tomdispatch.com

ForeignPolicy: Stanley McChrystal comes from a world where killing by any means is the norm and a blanket of govt. secrecy provides the necessary protection.


Half of my fantasy seems well grounded...we'll see how the budget deficit part goes...
Arneoker
QUOTE(rla @ May 22 2009, 10:24 AM) *
QUOTE(Snuffysmith @ May 22 2009, 09:07 AM) *
Gen. McChrystal, Grim Reaper: Obama's New Afghan Commander Will Send Death Toll Soaring

Tom Engelhardt, Tomdispatch.com

ForeignPolicy: Stanley McChrystal comes from a world where killing by any means is the norm and a blanket of govt. secrecy provides the necessary protection.


Half of my fantasy seems well grounded...we'll see how the budget deficit part goes...

Well I think that there are some rational grounds for some fears here, but let's see how this guy actually operates.
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ May 22 2009, 07:31 AM) *
What kind of marching orders did Obama give his new General?

My fantasy is that he told him to go forth and kill as many heavy-bearded Muslims as was possible ......

I'd say that this above is likely a more accurate wording of the marching orders, rla, which may or may not fit your fantasy ....

And who is to say that Obama really has any voice in the matter ....

It is possible the marching orders were delivered to him .......

"THIS IS THE WAY IT IS GOING TO BE ..."

And so ...

Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ May 22 2009, 08:40 AM) *
Well I think that there are some rational grounds for some fears here, but let's see how this guy actually operates.

QUOTE(Livyjr @ May 22 2009, 05:08 AM) *
"Real Soldiers Love Their Robot Brethren"

Jeremy Hsu, Staff Writer, LiveScience.com

Thu May 21, 11:00 am ET

The growing numbers of battlefield robots have also changed the human relationship to war itself, especially as the United States has already fielded more than 12,000 ground robots and more than 7,000 flying drones in regions such as Iraq and Afghanistan.

Armed drones in particular have proved effective in loitering over target areas for hours until targets come in sight, and then firing their missiles at suspected insurgents - all while being controlled by human operators sitting thousands of miles away in Nevada.

The drone operator's war often looks surreal and disconnected from reality, given that they coordinate strikes via online chat and view their targets as small infrared figures moving around.

Many media stories have referenced the example of a 19-year-old drone operator, who honed his skills from playing Xbox to become a top operator and eventually an instructor.

That has led some members of the U.S. military to look down on drone operators for not sharing the risks of ground forces or even pilots, as Singer discovered.

I doubt very much that we will know much at all about the way this guy operates ...

Because he operates in the SHADOWS like a GHOUL ....

Not in the light of day ...

And I don't have fears, myself ....

Rather, I have doubts, distrust and yes, I would say DISGUST at the thought of America becoming more and more just a murderous THUG out there in the world ...

The SOURCE of problems and the SOLVER of NONE .......

And that DISGUST is as a combat veteran ....

I have a hard time with people wearing the uniform of the U.S. military who have sworn an oath to uphold our constitutional values, which start with DUE PROCESS OF LAW, denying people DUE PROCESS OF LAW by murdering them in other countries, regardless of the excuses given for it ....

OUR Constitutional values stem directly from the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, which clearly states that ALL men have the right to LIFE, LIBERTY and the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS .....

Except of course, if they happen to be a full-bearded Muslim in BARACKISTAN, which satrapy comprises present-day Afghanistnam and Pakistan ...

Then they are just game animals ....

And everybody knows that game animals have NO rights, at all ....

They are there to be killed for sport ....

By some 19-year old AMERICAN KILLER safely ensconced in a secure cave in Nevada ....

And so ...
Arneoker
QUOTE(Livyjr @ May 22 2009, 01:15 PM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ May 22 2009, 08:40 AM) *
Well I think that there are some rational grounds for some fears here, but let's see how this guy actually operates.

QUOTE(Livyjr @ May 22 2009, 05:08 AM) *
"Real Soldiers Love Their Robot Brethren"

Jeremy Hsu, Staff Writer, LiveScience.com

Thu May 21, 11:00 am ET

The growing numbers of battlefield robots have also changed the human relationship to war itself, especially as the United States has already fielded more than 12,000 ground robots and more than 7,000 flying drones in regions such as Iraq and Afghanistan.

Armed drones in particular have proved effective in loitering over target areas for hours until targets come in sight, and then firing their missiles at suspected insurgents - all while being controlled by human operators sitting thousands of miles away in Nevada.

The drone operator's war often looks surreal and disconnected from reality, given that they coordinate strikes via online chat and view their targets as small infrared figures moving around.

Many media stories have referenced the example of a 19-year-old drone operator, who honed his skills from playing Xbox to become a top operator and eventually an instructor.

That has led some members of the U.S. military to look down on drone operators for not sharing the risks of ground forces or even pilots, as Singer discovered.

I doubt very much that we will know much at all about the way this guy operates ...

Somehow I don't think that that will prevent you from offering further copious amounts of commentary and firm judgments on that very matter...
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ May 22 2009, 11:18 AM) *
Somehow I don't think that that will prevent you from offering further copious amounts of commentary and firm judgments on that very matter...

QUOTE(Livyjr @ May 22 2009, 11:15 AM) *
QUOTE(Livyjr @ May 22 2009, 05:08 AM) *

"Real Soldiers Love Their Robot Brethren"

Jeremy Hsu, Staff Writer, LiveScience.com

Thu May 21, 11:00 am ET

The growing numbers of battlefield robots have also changed the human relationship to war itself, especially as the United States has already fielded more than 12,000 ground robots and more than 7,000 flying drones in regions such as Iraq and Afghanistan.

Armed drones in particular have proved effective in loitering over target areas for hours until targets come in sight, and then firing their missiles at suspected insurgents - all while being controlled by human operators sitting thousands of miles away in Nevada.

The drone operator's war often looks surreal and disconnected from reality, given that they coordinate strikes via online chat and view their targets as small infrared figures moving around.

Many media stories have referenced the example of a 19-year-old drone operator, who honed his skills from playing Xbox to become a top operator and eventually an instructor.

That has led some members of the U.S. military to look down on drone operators for not sharing the risks of ground forces or even pilots, as Singer discovered.

And that DISGUST is as a combat veteran ....

I have a hard time with people wearing the uniform of the U.S. military who have sworn an oath to uphold our constitutional values, which start with DUE PROCESS OF LAW, denying people DUE PROCESS OF LAW by murdering them in other countries, regardless of the excuses given for it ....

OUR Constitutional values stem directly from the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, which clearly states that ALL men have the right to LIFE, LIBERTY and the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS .....

Except of course, if they happen to be a full-bearded Muslim in BARACKISTAN, which satrapy comprises present-day Afghanistnam and Pakistan ...

Then they are just game animals ....

And everybody knows that game animals have NO rights, at all ....

They are there to be killed for sport ....

By some 19-year old AMERICAN KILLER safely ensconced in a secure cave in Nevada ....

And so ...



AS I WAS SAYING ....

U.S. ARMY SOLDIER'S HANDBOOK, CIRCA 1968, p.5:


The Declaration of Independence was adopted on 4 July 1776 and is divided into three important parts.

PART ONE states the fundamental principles of our American Government - that all men are created equal; that each man has the inalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness; that governments receive their power from the governed; and that the people have the right to alter or change that government if it becomes destructive to these ends.

PART TWO covers the acts which had been committed by the British against the American colonies.

PART THREE is the actual Declaration of Independence, ending with a pledge by the signers of their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor in the cause of the United States.

The Declaration of Independence states our philosophy of government and the pledge of our forefathers to support it as the first pillar of our American freedoms.
Livyjr
QUOTE(Livyjr @ May 21 2009, 04:47 PM) *
And actually, rla, the multitudes do come to this forum to read the posts ....

This post right now has 1807 hits ....

1,927 @ 2:16 PM EST
Livyjr
"Pakistani troops encircle Taliban base in Swat - Pakistani troops encircle Taliban base as UN seeks $543 million for war refugees"

By CHRIS BRUMMITT, Associated Press

Last updated: 11:55 a.m., Friday, May 22, 2009

KHWAZAKHELA, Pakistan -- Troops are encircling Taliban militants in their mountain base as well as the main town in the Swat Valley, a Pakistani general said Friday, as the U.N. appealed for $543 million to ease the suffering of nearly 2 million refugees from the fighting.

Elsewhere in the northwest, a car bomb exploded close to a movie theater in the city of Peshawar, killing at least four people and wounding 20 others, witnesses and police office Noor Khan said.


It was unclear who was behind the attack, but militants have targeted movie theaters before in the region, believing them to be un-Islamic.

With skepticism growing about the progress of the month-old army offensive in the northwestern region, the army flew a handful of reporters from foreign news organizations into Swat on Friday.

An Associated Press reporter aboard the helicopter saw no cars and few people in the town of Mingora or on roads farther up the valley, a former tourist haven just 60 miles (100 kilometers) from the capital, Islamabad.

From the air, there was little evidence of the fierce fighting and airstrikes that the military claims have already killed more than 1,000 militants as well as some 60 soldiers.

But a senior commander insisted the army was trapping militants in Mingora and Piochar, a side-valley farther north that is the stronghold of Swat Taliban leader Maulana Fazlullah.

"The noose is tightening around them."

"Their routes of escape have been cut off," Maj. Gen. Sajad Ghani said.

"It's just a question of time before (Taliban leaders) are eliminated."

Pakistan launched an offensive last month to halt a Taliban advance from Swat toward the capital, Islamabad, that prompted U.S. warnings about the stability of the nuclear-armed country.

While the U.S. has praised the military operation, it is also contributing to a gathering effort to shield the government from the political fallout from the humanitarian crisis.

Officials say 1.9 million people have fled the fighting.

More than 160,000 are staying in sweltering camps just south of the battle zone.

The rest have been taken in by relatives.

The United Nations said its appeal would help provide food, schooling and health care to the multitude displaced from the Swat area and by fighting in other border regions last year.

"The scale of this displacement is extraordinary in terms of size and speed and has caused incredible suffering," said Martin Mogwanja, the acting U.N. humanitarian coordinator in Pakistan.

"We are calling for generous support from the international community."

The U.N. said the figure included some $88 million from the United States, which this week pledged total assistance of $110 million in emergency aid.

The government said Thursday that international donors had pledged a total of $224 million.

Pakistan, which is heavily dependent on foreign aid, has pledged $100 million of its own.

The Obama administration has declared eliminating militant havens in Pakistan vital to its goals of defeating al-Qaida and winning the war in Afghanistan.

But an army failure or a botched relief effort in Swat would further undermine Pakistani enthusiasm for tough military action inside its own borders.


The army claims to have won back swaths of territory in Swat, which was popular with tourists before the Taliban took over, enforcing a hardline brand of Islamic law and beheading opponents.

However, it faces stiff resistance from thousands more fighters and has ventured no prediction of when the Taliban will be defeated.

Ghani, the commander of military operations in the upper portion of the Swat valley, sought Friday to counter allegations that many civilians had died in army shelling.

Reporters are unable to work in the war zone, making it difficult to verify accounts of the fighting.

Only ground troops were operating in residential areas and the number of innocents killed in the area under his responsibility had "not reached double figures," he said.

Violence is also rising in the tribal regions along the Afghan border from where Taliban and al-Qaida militants launch attacks on both sides of the frontier.

On Thursday, a suicide car bomber attacked a paramilitary fort in the town of Jandola, killing four soldiers and four civilians, intelligence officials said.

------

Associated Press writer Munir Ahmad in Islamabad contributed to this report.
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ May 22 2009, 11:18 AM) *
QUOTE(Livyjr @ May 22 2009, 01:15 PM) *

QUOTE(Arneoker @ May 22 2009, 08:40 AM) *

Well I think that there are some rational grounds for some fears here, but let's see how this guy actually operates.

I doubt very much that we will know much at all about the way this guy operates ...


Somehow I don't think that that will prevent you from offering further copious amounts of commentary and firm judgments on that very matter...


"McChrystal Choice Suggests Special Ops Strikes Will Continue"

By Gareth Porter

May 13, 2009

Inter Press Service

May 13, 2009 — WASHINGTON, May 12 (IPS) - The choice of Lt. Gen. Stanley McChrystal to become the new U.S. commander in Afghanistan has been hailed by Defence Secretary Robert Gates and national news media as ushering in a new unconventional approach to counterinsurgency.

But McChrystal’s background sends a very different message from the one claimed by Gates and the news media.

His long specialisation in counter-terrorism operations suggests an officer who is likely to have more interest in targeted killings than in the kind of politically sensitive counterinsurgency programmes that the Obama administration has said it intends to carry out.


In announcing the extraordinary firing of Gen. David McKiernan and the nomination of McChrystal to replace him, Gates said that the mission in Afghanistan “requires new thinking and new approaches by our military leaders” and praised McChrystal for his “unique skill set in counterinsurgency”.

Media reporting on the choice of McChrystal simply echoed the Pentagon’s line.

The Washington Post said his selection “marks the continued ascendancy of officers who have pressed for the use of counterinsurgency tactics, in Iraq and Afghanistan, that are markedly different from the Army’s traditional doctrine”.


The New York Times cited unnamed “Defense Department officials” in reporting,

“His success in using intelligence and firepower to track and kill insurgents, and his training in unconventional warfare that emphasizes the need to protect the population, made him the best choice for the command in Afghanistan…”

The Wall Street Journal suggested that McChrystal was the kind of commander who would “fight the kind of complex counterinsurgency warfare” that Gates wants to see in Afghanistan, because his command of Special Operations forces in Iraq had involved “units that specialize in guerilla warfare, including the training of indigenous armies”.

But these explanations for the choice of McChrystal equate his command of the Special Operations forces with expertise on counterinsurgency, despite the fact that McChrystal spent his last five years as a commander of Special Operations forces focusing overwhelmingly on counter-terrorism operations, not on counterinsurgency.

Whereas counterinsurgency operations are aimed primarily at influencing the population and are primarily non-military, counter-terrorism operations are exclusively military and focus on targeting the “enemy”.

As commander of the Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) from April 2003 to August 2008, he was preoccupied with pursuing high value al Qaeda targets and local and national insurgent leaders in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan – mostly through targeted raids and airstrikes.

It was under McChrystal’s command, in fact, that JSOC shifted away from the very mission of training indigenous military units in counterinsurgency operations that had been a core mission of Special Operations Forces.

McChrystal spent an unusual five years as commander of JSOC, because he had become a close friend of then Secretary of Defence Donald Rumsfeld.


Rumsfeld came to view JSOC as his counter to the covert operations capabilities of the CIA, which he hated and distrusted, and Rumsfeld used JSOC to capture or kill high value enemy leaders, including Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda’s top leader in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

In 2005, JSOC’s parent command, the Special Operations Command (SOCOM), was directed by Rumsfeld to “plan, synchronize and, as directed, conduct global operations against terrorist networks in coordination with other combatant commanders”.

That directive has generally been regarded as granting SOCOM the authority to carry out actions unilaterally anywhere on the globe.

Under that directive, McChyrstal and JSOC carried out targeted raids and other operations against suspected Taliban in Afghanistan which were not coordinated with the commander of other U.S. forces in the country.


Gen. David Barno, the U.S. commander in Afghanistan, has said that he put a stop to targeted airstrikes in early 2004, but they resumed after he was replaced by McKiernan in 2005.

U.S. airstrikes which have caused hundreds of civilian deaths have become a major political issue in Afghanistan and the subject of official protests by Afghan President Hamid Karzai as well as by the lower house of the Afghan parliament.

Many of the airstrikes and commando raids that have caused large-scale civilian deaths have involved Special Operations forces operating separately from the NATO command.

Special Operations forces under McChrystal’s command also engaged in raiding homes in search of Taliban suspects, angering villagers in Herat province to the point where they took up arms against the U.S. forces, according to a May 2007 story by Carlotta Gall and David E. Sanger of the New York Times.

After a series of raids by Special Operations forces in Afghanistan in late 2008 and early 2009 killed women and children, to mounting popular outrage, McChrystal’s successor as commander of JSOC, Vice Adm. William H. McRaven, ordered a temporary reduction in the rate of such commando raids in mid-February for two weeks.

However, the JSOC raids resumed at their original intensity in March.

Later that month Gen. David Petraeus issued a directive putting all JSOC operations under McKiernan’s tactical command, but there has been no evidence that the change has curbed the raids by Special Operations Forces.

President Barack Obama’s National Security Adviser Gen. James Jones responded to Karzai’s demand for an end to U.S. airstrikes by saying, “We’re going to take a look at trying to make sure that we correct those things we can correct, but certainly to tie the hands of our commanders and say we’re not going to conduct air strikes, it would be imprudent.”

The airstrike in western Farah province that killed nearly 150 civilians last week, provoking protests by hundreds of university students in Kabul, was also ordered by Special Operations Forces.

McChrystal’s nomination to become director of the Joint Staff at the Pentagon in May 2008 was held up for months while the Senate Armed Services Committee investigated a pattern of abuse of detainees by military personnel under his command.

Sixty-four service personnel assigned or attached to Special Operations units were disciplined for detainee abuse between early 2004 and the end of 2007.


Capt. Carolyn Wood, an operations officer with the 519th Military Intelligence Battalion, gave military investigators a sworn statement in 2004 in which she said she had drawn guidance for interrogation from a directive called “TF-121 IROE,” which had been given to the members of Task Force 121, a unit directly under JSOC.

However, the military refused to make that document public, despite requests from the American Civil Liberties Union and other human rights groups, protecting McChrystal from legal proceedings regarding his responsibility for detainee abuses.

He was never held accountable for those abuses, supposedly because of the secrecy of the operation of JSOC.

Although he has been linked with detainee abuses and raids that kill numbers of civilians, McChrystal has not had any direct experience with the non-military elements of such a strategy.

W. Patrick Lang, formerly the defence intelligence officer for the Middle East, suggested in his blog Monday that the McChrystal nomination “sounds like a paradigm shift in which Obama’s policy of destroying the leadership of al Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan takes priority over everything else”.

The choice of McChrystal certainly appears to signal the administration’s readiness to continue Special Operations forces raids and airstrikes that is generating growing opposition by Afghans to the U.S. military presence.


Gareth Porter is an investigative historian and journalist specialising in U.S. national security policy. The paperback edition of his latest book, “Perils of Dominance: Imbalance of Power and the Road to War in Vietnam”, was published in 2006.

http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2009/0...-gareth-porter/
rla
This change of command and expansion of the war, covered by this thread, continues to be completly ignored by the mainstream media in the US. To me, this is the most alarming situation of all the alarming situations presently
confronting USAians. What do you folks think is going on?
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ May 23 2009, 08:38 AM) *
This change of command and expansion of the war, covered by this thread, continues to be completly ignored by the mainstream media in the US.

To me, this is the most alarming situation of all the alarming situations presently confronting USAians.

What do you folks think is going on?

EMERGENT EVOLUTION, rla ....

A wheel continues to turn ....

And what is called the MAIN STREAM MEDIA is really an ephemera that no longer has value or purpose in our lives as US citizens ....

And with your long life, rla, where there was no MSM when you were young, you should be able to discern that better than a lot of younger people could, who have only lived during the period of dominance of the MSM ....

The MSM, like a mushroom appearing on your lawn in the morning came briefly out of nowhere as a temporal phenomena, and like a race horse with nothing more to give, they are now fading fast ....

The focus of attention is shifting rapidly away from the MSM, I think .....

I never watch them, myself, nor do I read their papers ....

I go directly to the feeds, like Snuf does, and I do my own continued research in threads like this one ....

That is somethig that we citizens without considerable economic means never really could do before - get our information directly from the news feeds themselves, without it first being filtered by some corporate editorial staff with loyalties to God alone knows whom ....

So I am not alarmed that the MSM either is not getting it, or is keeping it from us, both of which possibilities are certainly not outside the realm of possibility ....

The MSM is a house of cards built on shifting sand and populated by persons of dubious integrity such as Judith "PRESS POODLE" Miller of the NEW YORK TIMES ...

And so ...

I think the MSM is in its death throes .....

But like a snake, it will take some time to die ....

And so ...
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ May 23 2009, 02:35 PM) *
QUOTE(rla @ May 23 2009, 08:38 AM) *
This change of command and expansion of the war, covered by this thread, continues to be completly ignored by the mainstream media in the US.

To me, this is the most alarming situation of all the alarming situations presently confronting USAians.

What do you folks think is going on?

EMERGENT EVOLUTION, rla ....

A wheel continues to turn ....

And what is called the MAIN STREAM MEDIA is really an ephemera that no longer has value or purpose in our lives as US citizens ....

And with your long life, rla, where there was no MSM when you were young, you should be able to discern that better than a lot of younger people could, who have only lived during the period of dominance of the MSM ....

The MSM, like a mushroom appearing on your lawn in the morning came briefly out of nowhere as a temporal phenomena, and like a race horse with nothing more to give, they are now fading fast ....

The focus of attention is shifting rapidly away from the MSM, I think .....

I never watch them, myself, nor do I read their papers ....

I go directly to the feeds, like Snuf does, and I do my own continued research in threads like this one ....

That is somethig that we citizens without considerable economic means never really could do before - get our information directly from the news feeds themselves, without it first being filtered by some corporate editorial staff with loyalties to God alone knows whom ....

So I am not alarmed that the MSM either is not getting it, or is keeping it from us, both of which possibilities are certainly not outside the realm of possibility ....

The MSM is a house of cards built on shifting sand and populated by persons of dubious integrity such as Judith "PRESS POODLE" Miller of the NEW YORK TIMES ...

And so ...

I think the MSM is in its death throes .....

But like a snake, it will take some time to die ....

And so ...


I have no reason to doubt what you're saying Livyjr. The fact remains that it is still the major force driving public
opinion and voting behavior, so remains something to deal with for anyone who wishes to participate in self-government--to whatever extent is still possible...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ May 23 2009, 02:39 PM) *
The fact remains that it is still the major force driving public opinion and voting behavior, so remains something to deal with for anyone who wishes to participate in self-government--to whatever extent is still possible...

All of what you say defines the EMERGENT EVOLUTION that surrounds us on all sides, rla ....

I view it as a stream of consciousness that is like a wide river, and we are each in our own small boat, if not in the water, itself ....

And sometimes that stream of consciousness has the analogue of white water in it, so that if you and I are in different parts of that stream, what we see and experience can be markedly different from each other ....

And I really wonder how much influence the MSM has anymore ...

But I myself have no way of saying, since I don't watch it or use it, and I don't have a data base outside of my own lack of experience to draw from ....

And so ...
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ May 23 2009, 04:27 PM) *
QUOTE(rla @ May 23 2009, 02:39 PM) *
The fact remains that it is still the major force driving public opinion and voting behavior, so remains something to deal with for anyone who wishes to participate in self-government--to whatever extent is still possible...

All of what you say defines the EMERGENT EVOLUTION that surrounds us on all sides, rla ....

I view it as a stream of consciousness that is like a wide river, and we are each in our own small boat, if not in the water, itself ....

And sometimes that stream of consciousness has the analogue of white water in it, so that if you and I are in different parts of that stream, what we see and experience can be markedly different from each other ....

And I really wonder how much influence the MSM has anymore ...

But I myself have no way of saying, since I don't watch it or use it, and I don't have a data base outside of my own lack of experience to draw from ....

And so ...


I watch 2 or 3 hours of TV news every day. It is more than just random nonsense. Its most consistent function
seems to act as a Leveler of the population's perception/conception of what is going on. It is an interactive narrative between and among the various outlets that takes the form of an ongoing athletic contest that alternates between exciting and boring but no one ever wins or loses. The audience leaves the game and returns to the game and the
game goes on and on. Contrary to popular assumptions, most people aren't gathering information in order to make
decisions in order to take some action. Our educational system no longer educates persons about living in the world
so people aren't prepared to handle the media...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ May 23 2009, 04:49 PM) *
Contrary to popular assumptions, most people aren't gathering information in order to make decisions in order to take some action.

Our educational system no longer educates persons about living in the world so people aren't prepared to handle the media...

You are coming on to your stride in here, rla, with this line of inquiry ....

You should keep on talking and develop these ideas further, to make them more comprehensible to people like me who have turned off the TV and have left it off for the reasons that you are stating right above here ....

I find the talking heads to be little more than children who have just left off sucking their thumbs with the mindless drivel that they seem to spew on the news ...

I particulary resent being told how to think or feel by some juvenile talking head on a TV screen ...

By turning off the TV, of course, I deprive myself of the ability to debate this issue with you, since I am now uninformed of what is going on inside the box ....

But when I am out, such a getting my vehicle serviced, there is generally a TV turned on, and generally what purports to be the news is on, and as I listen to the inanity, I am reminded of why I don't watch the thing on my own time ....

If you allow yourself to be dumbed down, and it becomes a habit being dumbed down, it can become awful stifling and limiting as one grows older in life ....

And so ...
rla
While we Huminoids are emersed in EMERGENT EVOLUTION and are to some extent encapsulated in our own personal construct systems, that which is emerging is Human Awareness which is the Organizing Function of
Emergent Evolution--so RELAX and ENJOY...every human system (Person) is a part of the Human Social System
and can potentially be integrated into the system without losing its individuality or destroying the system. Human Systems are potentially self-correcting...through individuation, integration and organization...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ May 23 2009, 05:08 PM) *
While we Huminoids are emersed in EMERGENT EVOLUTION and are to some extent encapsulated in our own personal construct systems, that which is emerging is Human Awareness which is the Organizing Function of Emergent Evolution

It is interesting that this conversation is taking place in here in an ONLINE CAFE, or coffee house, if you will, and coffee houses were the home of the last period of ENLIGHTENMENT down here on this earth of ours ....

And so ...
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