Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Slogans and expectations don't pay the bill
Common Ground Common Sense > Issues that Affect Our Lives > Health Care
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4
TheRestofUs
QUOTE(Indianhead @ Aug 21 2009, 01:22 PM) *
We have a proposition suggesting government take over of health care and hospitals.
Even if you trust a current federal official, what gaurantees that another...
say...a Bush...comes and determines that health care for some is less important than others?

This is my hesitation, my rebellion.

I completed an "old" book tonight: The Dragons of Eden, speculations of the evolution of human intelligence,
by Carl Sagan. Published in 1977. Dr. Sagan is dead and gone now, but he wrote:

""It is sometimes suggested that such experiments may provide unscrupulous governments -
and there are many of them - with tools to control their citizenry even further. For example,
we can imagine a government that implants hundreds of tiny electrodes in the "pleasure" and "pain"
centers of the brains of newborn children, electrodes capable of remote radio stimulation - perhaps
at frequencies or with access codes known only to the government. When the child grows up,
the government might stimulate his pleasure centers if he has performed, in work quota and ideology ,
an acceptable day's work; otherwise it might stimulate his pain centers. This is a nightmarish vision,
but I do not think it is an argument againsty experiments on electrical stimulus of the brain.
It is, rather, an argument against letting the government control the hospitals."

It is my core feeling that individuals, family, and perception of God should drive such decisions...not government.

If we should pledge the expenditure of a $1 Trillion...let us pledge it to science, exploration...in medicine, in space.
Let me die, dedicate funding to the expansion of human knowledge...intellectual evolution...it's a better investment for government.

As unlikely as it seems and from someone I doubt you have much use for, none other than Barney Frank agrees with you. I quote (in paraphrase) from a recent Town Hall Meeting of his to a large group of hecklers. "When did I ever say, or who ever said you should trust the government? That is not what a citizen in a Democracy should do. You should participate, speak out, vote, lobby, etc..." Unquote.

We should demand transparency and accountability as is our right and our duty. Power never gives over power without wresting it from their hands . Our founders gave us the means of legal peaceful change but we have to exercise it. In the end a certain amount of wary trust must be extended but never blindly and never without verification. Given even that very qualified "trust," from whom are we more likely (no matter how unlikely to begin with) to get such accountability, transparency and verification as per our demands, when the Insurance Companies are EXEMPT from the anti-trust laws and become the only game in town in most regions? Corporate America employs "Anti-Tort" as a wall against a citizen seeking redress in court. True you run up against a similar wall if you want to sue the Federal government but unlike those in the private sector we cannot become publicly outraged and hold them to any kind of account unless we buy stock and quite a lot of it. Unless we are inordinately wealthy and sit on the board we cannot vote them out of public office since they hold no public office. Yet they can destroy our lives on a corporate whim. They can hide in their mansions and you'll hear nothing from them directly. Their employees several levels down might give you some sort of swift corporate dismissal to some complaint of ours if they even deign to do that. Or you'll hear from their lawyers if you dare to say anything they don't like.

Those with so much inappropriate power to not only flat out buy our government and affect our lives are the last people on any list to put one's trust in IMO. But the "devil we know...". And to each their own.

Just my opinion.
Indianhead
The problem with that nice sounding "transparency" is that there is none.
Remember when they were going to post bills on-line for what a week(?) before the president signed them?

Then there is the flip-flopping of reasoning for health care:



http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/na...0,3787348.story

Obama's healthcare messages are backfiring, strategists say
The president's range of abstract arguments for reform are leaving people confused, some Democrats contend.


By Peter Nicholas
August 22, 2009

Reporting from Washington - Democratic strategists say the Obama administration's evolving, abstract arguments
for healthcare reform are backfiring and contributing to a decline in public support for the legislation.


The strategists, many of whom saw healthcare reform fail in the Clinton administration, contend that President Obama
has advanced too many rationales for his plan, leaving people confused.

For example, Obama has argued that a new healthcare system is necessary to spur an economic recovery. He also has
offered up healthcare as an antidote to rising deficits. Earlier this week in a conference call with religious leaders,
Obama laid out a "moral" imperative for revamping the nation's healthcare system.

At other points, Obama has portrayed "meddling" insurers as a reason for scrapping the existing system.

"One of the difficulties has been that the explanation has changed," said Howard Paster, a legislative liaison
in the Clinton administration. "Originally it was keyed very much to the economy. More recently, emphasis
has been placed on issues of fairness and equity. We need to have a consistent set of reasons for doing this."

Conservative opponents of the overhaul increasingly use a simple, understandable message: Government-forced
cost reductions will restrict treatments, imperiling the ill and elderly.

To counter that, the case needs to be made in personal terms, some Democrats have advised. Rather than talk
about healthcare's relation to fiscal policy, the White House should demonstrate how specific constituencies --
like the elderly -- stand to gain under the plan Obama has championed.

"They have not excelled in that area," said Chris Jennings, a senior healthcare advisor in the Clinton administration.

Jennings added that the Obama administration must emphasize that "the consequences of inaction are severe,
and failure to act is a policy choice that will hurt real people. And the benefits of reform will help key targeted populations.
You never want to get to a point in the healthcare debate where people are more comfortable doing nothing than doing something."
...
-----------------------------

The problem is that healthcare is part of the "redistribution of wealth" the president let slip...and none of the above.
I believe it is becoming obvious "the honeymoon is over". And, it ended quickly because intoxicated supporters misread...

-----------------------------
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/horserace..._mandate_1.html
RealClearPolitics HorseRaceBlog

By Jay Cost
August 16, 2009

Obama Misread His Mandate

After a rough week for health care reform, Democratic leaders appear to be pulling back on their demand for a public option.
It remains to be seen whether liberal Democrats, especially in the House where they are more numerous, will go along with this.
But this is still a step in the right direction to get something passed this year.

The public option was an overreach. The White House's erroneous belief that it could get it through the legislature - or
at least that it could let four out of five congressional committees push it - was a misinterpretation of last year's election results.
It has already made a similar mistake with cap-and-trade, backing a House bill that appears to have no chance of success in the Senate.

Bismarck once commented that politics is the art of the possible. So far, the White House has not exhibited a good understanding
of exactly what is possible in this political climate. It has been acting as though the President's election was a major change
in the ideological orientation of the country.


A lot of liberals certainly saw it as such. All the strained comparisons of Obama to Franklin Roosevelt were a tipoff
that many were talking themselves into the idea that the 2008 election created an opportunity for a substantial, leftward shift in policy.

Yet the election of 2008 was not like the 1932 contest. It wasn't like 1952, 1956, 1964, 1972, 1980, 1984, or even 1988, either.
Obama's election was narrower than all of these. FDR won 42 of 48 states. Eisenhower won 39, then 41. Johnson won 44 of 50.
Nixon won 49. Reagan won 44, then 49. George H.W. Bush won 40. Obama won 28, three fewer than George W. Bush in his narrow 2004 reelection.


This makes a crucial difference when it comes to implementing policy. Our system of government depends not only on how many
votes you win, but how broadly distributed those votes are. This prevents one section or faction from railroading another.
It is evident
in the Electoral College and the House, but above all in the Senate, where 44 senators come from states that voted against Obama last year.
That's a consequence of the fact that Obama's election - while historic in many respects, and the largest we have seen in 20 years
- was still not as broad-based as many would like to believe. Bully for Obama and the Democrats that they have 60 Senators,
but the fact remains that thirteen of them come from McCain states, indicating that the liberals don't get the full run of the show.
...

Put it this way...Senator Landrieu's email box has been full for weeks...I've had to correspond with her top staffers.
Now is the time that liberals should support the most liberal candidate elected president in 76 years, but I think they
now feel they must arm-twist him to get their pent-up theories in place. If that's the case, put a fork in him, he's done.
Some call it snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
graham4anything
you are full of crap

77% of the public wants choice of public and private

the polls that said otherwise were worded different than ever before

there is NO downturn in what the president wants
no matter how many stupid rightwing articles you post
or lie about
rla
QUOTE(bigtom @ Aug 21 2009, 02:49 PM) *
You are correct...That IS NOT fair.


A friend of mine said this at band practice.
"What if Obama had positioned the issue as extending MEDICARE to all instead of making this huge bill?
IMO, It would be harder for people to say they were against medicare...


This would have been a much better strategy. This is esentially what Kucinich's HR676 and S703
proposes...
TheRestofUs
QUOTE(Indianhead @ Aug 22 2009, 10:00 AM) *
The problem with that nice sounding "transparency" is that there is none.
Remember when they were going to post bills on-line for what a week(?) before the president signed them?

Then there is the flip-flopping of reasoning for health care:



http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/na...0,3787348.story

Obama's healthcare messages are backfiring, strategists say
The president's range of abstract arguments for reform are leaving people confused, some Democrats contend.


By Peter Nicholas
August 22, 2009

Reporting from Washington - Democratic strategists say the Obama administration's evolving, abstract arguments
for healthcare reform are backfiring and contributing to a decline in public support for the legislation.


The strategists, many of whom saw healthcare reform fail in the Clinton administration, contend that President Obama
has advanced too many rationales for his plan, leaving people confused.

For example, Obama has argued that a new healthcare system is necessary to spur an economic recovery. He also has
offered up healthcare as an antidote to rising deficits. Earlier this week in a conference call with religious leaders,
Obama laid out a "moral" imperative for revamping the nation's healthcare system.

At other points, Obama has portrayed "meddling" insurers as a reason for scrapping the existing system.

"One of the difficulties has been that the explanation has changed," said Howard Paster, a legislative liaison
in the Clinton administration. "Originally it was keyed very much to the economy. More recently, emphasis
has been placed on issues of fairness and equity. We need to have a consistent set of reasons for doing this."

Conservative opponents of the overhaul increasingly use a simple, understandable message: Government-forced
cost reductions will restrict treatments, imperiling the ill and elderly.

To counter that, the case needs to be made in personal terms, some Democrats have advised. Rather than talk
about healthcare's relation to fiscal policy, the White House should demonstrate how specific constituencies --
like the elderly -- stand to gain under the plan Obama has championed.

"They have not excelled in that area," said Chris Jennings, a senior healthcare advisor in the Clinton administration.

Jennings added that the Obama administration must emphasize that "the consequences of inaction are severe,
and failure to act is a policy choice that will hurt real people. And the benefits of reform will help key targeted populations.
You never want to get to a point in the healthcare debate where people are more comfortable doing nothing than doing something."
...
-----------------------------

The problem is that healthcare is part of the "redistribution of wealth" the president let slip...and none of the above.
I believe it is becoming obvious "the honeymoon is over". And, it ended quickly because intoxicated supporters misread...

-----------------------------
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/horserace..._mandate_1.html
RealClearPolitics HorseRaceBlog

By Jay Cost
August 16, 2009

Obama Misread His Mandate

After a rough week for health care reform, Democratic leaders appear to be pulling back on their demand for a public option.
It remains to be seen whether liberal Democrats, especially in the House where they are more numerous, will go along with this.
But this is still a step in the right direction to get something passed this year.

The public option was an overreach. The White House's erroneous belief that it could get it through the legislature - or
at least that it could let four out of five congressional committees push it - was a misinterpretation of last year's election results.
It has already made a similar mistake with cap-and-trade, backing a House bill that appears to have no chance of success in the Senate.

Bismarck once commented that politics is the art of the possible. So far, the White House has not exhibited a good understanding
of exactly what is possible in this political climate. It has been acting as though the President's election was a major change
in the ideological orientation of the country.


A lot of liberals certainly saw it as such. All the strained comparisons of Obama to Franklin Roosevelt were a tipoff
that many were talking themselves into the idea that the 2008 election created an opportunity for a substantial, leftward shift in policy.

Yet the election of 2008 was not like the 1932 contest. It wasn't like 1952, 1956, 1964, 1972, 1980, 1984, or even 1988, either.
Obama's election was narrower than all of these. FDR won 42 of 48 states. Eisenhower won 39, then 41. Johnson won 44 of 50.
Nixon won 49. Reagan won 44, then 49. George H.W. Bush won 40. Obama won 28, three fewer than George W. Bush in his narrow 2004 reelection.


This makes a crucial difference when it comes to implementing policy. Our system of government depends not only on how many
votes you win, but how broadly distributed those votes are. This prevents one section or faction from railroading another.
It is evident
in the Electoral College and the House, but above all in the Senate, where 44 senators come from states that voted against Obama last year.
That's a consequence of the fact that Obama's election - while historic in many respects, and the largest we have seen in 20 years
- was still not as broad-based as many would like to believe. Bully for Obama and the Democrats that they have 60 Senators,
but the fact remains that thirteen of them come from McCain states, indicating that the liberals don't get the full run of the show.
...

Put it this way...Senator Landrieu's email box has been full for weeks...I've had to correspond with her top staffers.
Now is the time that liberals should support the most liberal candidate elected president in 76 years, but I think they
now feel they must arm-twist him to get their pent-up theories in place. If that's the case, put a fork in him, he's done.
Some call it snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

We'll see what's the case. People will not appreciate Health Reform being killed again and however it may affect Obama's ratings in the polls if he fails we will see how low the lying Republicans slide from even their already historically low levels.

If HealthCare Reform fails many people will continue to suffer and many more will join their ranks. Talk about putting a fork in it. I suggest that those who cheer the demise of HealthCare better drink up quick and stand ready for the backlash.

Just my opinion.
TheRestofUs
In the end if the majority of Americans want what the Republicans are selling and want them back they will decide that at the polls. If a good idea continues to be rejected it will eventually come back up again and again until it succeeds.

It used to surprise me that people will swallow lies again and again and refuse to see the truth. I am too old to be surprised by much of anything anymore. And speaking of being tired I am tired of listening to what I know are lies. I hear people's legit concerns and if we had a real discourse with real conservatives we might all get somewhere as a nation. I do not mean you IH but some in this country choose to follow those who have proven themselves liars over and over again. People who have no regard for either the truth or any of the values they claim to represent. They continue to be elected leaders despite their obvious moral and intellectual mendacity. People get what they vote for and how else should it be?

I've seen it all before and while I may not have a corner on the whole truth myself I do know that sh$t floats.

Just my opinion.
jeffmoskin
I heard an interview last Sunday with Philip Longman, who wrote, "Best Care Anywhere: Why VA Health Care is Better Than Yours"

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Care-Anywhere-H...d=1SC07SL2CCDME

He contends that the VA has come a long way since it hit bottom in the 70s. They provide better (scientifially proven) medicine at 2/3 the cost of all the others.

Food for thought.
TheRestofUs
The VA is totally Single Payer HealthCare run totally by the government. Doctors employed and many hospitals owned by the government itself. Apparently the government is able to run it well despite the governments famous inability to run anything better than the devine efficient profit driven private sector. In the minds of some only they (Vets) are worthy of such a well run government health care system - not the rest of us. So in the minds of some, some people are more "worthy" than others and these "some" will decide which is which and who is who.

The irony is that many these "some" would call themselves Christians. And not just average "christians" but particularly pious acting, self-described devout "Christians" with a big "C" and no doubt favored over all others by God.

Obviously.

And this must be true because I never got the memo from Him confirming this, so I guess they are right, and I must be out of the loop.

Just some thoughts.
Indianhead
The VA is set up for a small section of people (relatively to universal coverage),
a select group of people that out government cares for because they keep us protected, IMO.

On the other hand there seems to be rational reason for all those seniors protesting the
"health care reform" being promoted by the White House:


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405...emEditorialPage

OPINION AUGUST 26, 2009, 11:53 P.M. ET

Obama Targets Medicare Advantage
Seniors would lose with health 'reform,' and seniors vote.

By KARL ROVE

President Barack Obama was wise to vacation this week on Martha's Vineyard. Not because it's one of the few places in America where his health-care plan is still popular, but because by getting out of Washington he gave staff time to repair his vaunted message machine, which was starting to break down.

Two weeks ago, White House Senior Adviser David Axelrod said in a now legendary "viral" email that, "It's a myth that health insurance reform would be financed by cutting Medicare benefits." This was sent out the day before Mr. Obama told a Montana town hall that he'd pay for health-care reform by "eliminating . . . about $177 billion over 10 years" for "what's called Medicare Advantage." And it was two days before Mr. Obama told a Colorado town hall he'd cover "two-thirds" of the "roughly $900 billion" of his plan's cost by "eliminating waste," again citing Medicare Advantage.

Who's right? As a former senior adviser, I can tell you who: the president. What's more, according to a White House fact sheet titled "Paying for Health Care Reform," Mr. Axelrod was misleading his readers. It notes the administration would cut $622 billion from Medicare and Medicaid, with a big chunk coming from Medicare Advantage, to pay for overhauling health care. Mr. Obama heralded these cuts as "common sense" in his June 13 radio address.

Medicare Advantage was enacted in 2003 to allow seniors to use Medicare funds to buy private insurance plans that fit their needs and their budgets. They get better care and better value for their money.

Medicare Advantage also has built-in incentives to encourage insurers to offer lower costs and better benefits. It's a program that puts patients in charge, not the government, which is why seniors like it and probably why the administration hates it.

Already, an estimated 10.2 million seniors—one out of five in America—have enrolled in Medicare Advantage. Mr. Obama is proposing to cut the program by nearly 20% and thus reduce the amount of money each will have to buy insurance. This will likely force most of them to lose the insurance they have now. Yet Mr. Obama promised in late July in New Hampshire that, "if you like your health-care plan, you can keep your health-care plan."

There are roughly 23,400 seniors on average in a congressional district who have Medicare Advantage, but who face losing it if Mr. Obama has his way. That's enough votes to tip most competitive House and Senate races.

Back in 2006, Mr. Obama and other Democrats railed against GOP efforts—modest though they were—to slow future Medicare spending growth. Now he and his party may reap what they have sown. As the president pushes to enact an overall cut to Medicare he will imperil Democrats in tough re-election races. Mr. Obama has a dangerous old tiger by the tail. Seniors are much more likely to vote than the population at large.
...
---------------------

My parents have Medicare Advantage and like it...I don't want it cut back...but better funded.

--------------------
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405...3280098676.html


OPINION AUGUST 26, 2009, 7:27 P.M. ET
Obama's Health Rationer-in-Chief
White House health-care adviser Ezekiel Emanuel blames the Hippocratic Oath for the 'overuse' of medical care.
By BETSY MCCAUGHEY

Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, health adviser to President Barack Obama, is under scrutiny. As a bioethicist, he has written extensively about who should get medical care, who should decide, and whose life is worth saving. Dr. Emanuel is part of a school of thought that redefines a physician’s duty, insisting that it includes working for the greater good of society instead of focusing only on a patient’s needs. Many physicians find that view dangerous, and most Americans are likely to agree.

The health bills being pushed through Congress put important decisions in the hands of presidential appointees like Dr. Emanuel. They will decide what insurance plans cover, how much leeway your doctor will have, and what seniors get under Medicare. Dr. Emanuel, brother of White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel, has already been appointed to two key positions: health-policy adviser at the Office of Management and Budget and a member of the Federal Council on Comparative Effectiveness Research. He clearly will play a role guiding the White House's health initiative. See "Principles for Allocation of Scarce Medical Interventions" The Lancet, January 31, 2009:

Dr. Emanuel says that health reform will not be pain free, and that the usual recommendations for cutting medical spending (often urged by the president) are mere window dressing. As he wrote in the Feb. 27, 2008, issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA): "Vague promises of savings from cutting waste, enhancing prevention and wellness, installing electronic medical records and improving quality of care are merely 'lipstick' cost control, more for show and public relations than for true change."

True reform, he argues, must include redefining doctors' ethical obligations. In the June 18, 2008, issue of JAMA, Dr. Emanuel blames the Hippocratic Oath for the "overuse" of medical care: "Medical school education and post graduate education emphasize thoroughness," he writes. "This culture is further reinforced by a unique understanding of professional obligations, specifically the Hippocratic Oath's admonition to 'use my power to help the sick to the best of my ability and judgment' as an imperative to do everything for the patient regardless of cost or effect on others."

In numerous writings, Dr. Emanuel chastises physicians for thinking only about their own patient's needs. He describes it as an intractable problem: "Patients were to receive whatever services they needed, regardless of its cost. Reasoning based on cost has been strenuously resisted; it violated the Hippocratic Oath, was associated with rationing, and derided as putting a price on life. . . . Indeed, many physicians were willing to lie to get patients what they needed from insurance companies that were trying to hold down costs." (JAMA, May 16, 2007).

Of course, patients hope their doctors will have that single-minded devotion. But Dr. Emanuel believes doctors should serve two masters, the patient and society, and that medical students should be trained "to provide socially sustainable, cost-effective care." One sign of progress he sees: "the progression in end-of-life care mentality from 'do everything' to more palliative care shows that change in physician norms and practices is possible." (JAMA, June 18, 2008).

...

------------------------

So while everyone yells about myths and lies...it seems some of the presidential advisors are recommending just those things.
rla
QUOTE(Indianhead @ Aug 27 2009, 08:09 AM) *
The VA is set up for a small section of people (relatively to universal coverage),
a select group of people that out government cares for because they keep us protected, IMO.

On the other hand there seems to be rational reason for all those seniors protesting the
"health care reform" being promoted by the White House:


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405...emEditorialPage

OPINION AUGUST 26, 2009, 11:53 P.M. ET

Obama Targets Medicare Advantage
Seniors would lose with health 'reform,' and seniors vote.

By KARL ROVE

President Barack Obama was wise to vacation this week on Martha's Vineyard. Not because it's one of the few places in America where his health-care plan is still popular, but because by getting out of Washington he gave staff time to repair his vaunted message machine, which was starting to break down.

Two weeks ago, White House Senior Adviser David Axelrod said in a now legendary "viral" email that, "It's a myth that health insurance reform would be financed by cutting Medicare benefits." This was sent out the day before Mr. Obama told a Montana town hall that he'd pay for health-care reform by "eliminating . . . about $177 billion over 10 years" for "what's called Medicare Advantage." And it was two days before Mr. Obama told a Colorado town hall he'd cover "two-thirds" of the "roughly $900 billion" of his plan's cost by "eliminating waste," again citing Medicare Advantage.

Who's right? As a former senior adviser, I can tell you who: the president. What's more, according to a White House fact sheet titled "Paying for Health Care Reform," Mr. Axelrod was misleading his readers. It notes the administration would cut $622 billion from Medicare and Medicaid, with a big chunk coming from Medicare Advantage, to pay for overhauling health care. Mr. Obama heralded these cuts as "common sense" in his June 13 radio address.

Medicare Advantage was enacted in 2003 to allow seniors to use Medicare funds to buy private insurance plans that fit their needs and their budgets. They get better care and better value for their money.

Medicare Advantage also has built-in incentives to encourage insurers to offer lower costs and better benefits. It's a program that puts patients in charge, not the government, which is why seniors like it and probably why the administration hates it.

Already, an estimated 10.2 million seniors—one out of five in America—have enrolled in Medicare Advantage. Mr. Obama is proposing to cut the program by nearly 20% and thus reduce the amount of money each will have to buy insurance. This will likely force most of them to lose the insurance they have now. Yet Mr. Obama promised in late July in New Hampshire that, "if you like your health-care plan, you can keep your health-care plan."

There are roughly 23,400 seniors on average in a congressional district who have Medicare Advantage, but who face losing it if Mr. Obama has his way. That's enough votes to tip most competitive House and Senate races.

Back in 2006, Mr. Obama and other Democrats railed against GOP efforts—modest though they were—to slow future Medicare spending growth. Now he and his party may reap what they have sown. As the president pushes to enact an overall cut to Medicare he will imperil Democrats in tough re-election races. Mr. Obama has a dangerous old tiger by the tail. Seniors are much more likely to vote than the population at large.
...
---------------------

My parents have Medicare Advantage and like it...I don't want it cut back...but better funded.

--------------------
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405...3280098676.html


OPINION AUGUST 26, 2009, 7:27 P.M. ET
Obama's Health Rationer-in-Chief
White House health-care adviser Ezekiel Emanuel blames the Hippocratic Oath for the 'overuse' of medical care.
By BETSY MCCAUGHEY

Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, health adviser to President Barack Obama, is under scrutiny. As a bioethicist, he has written extensively about who should get medical care, who should decide, and whose life is worth saving. Dr. Emanuel is part of a school of thought that redefines a physician’s duty, insisting that it includes working for the greater good of society instead of focusing only on a patient’s needs. Many physicians find that view dangerous, and most Americans are likely to agree.

The health bills being pushed through Congress put important decisions in the hands of presidential appointees like Dr. Emanuel. They will decide what insurance plans cover, how much leeway your doctor will have, and what seniors get under Medicare. Dr. Emanuel, brother of White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel, has already been appointed to two key positions: health-policy adviser at the Office of Management and Budget and a member of the Federal Council on Comparative Effectiveness Research. He clearly will play a role guiding the White House's health initiative. See "Principles for Allocation of Scarce Medical Interventions" The Lancet, January 31, 2009:

Dr. Emanuel says that health reform will not be pain free, and that the usual recommendations for cutting medical spending (often urged by the president) are mere window dressing. As he wrote in the Feb. 27, 2008, issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA): "Vague promises of savings from cutting waste, enhancing prevention and wellness, installing electronic medical records and improving quality of care are merely 'lipstick' cost control, more for show and public relations than for true change."

True reform, he argues, must include redefining doctors' ethical obligations. In the June 18, 2008, issue of JAMA, Dr. Emanuel blames the Hippocratic Oath for the "overuse" of medical care: "Medical school education and post graduate education emphasize thoroughness," he writes. "This culture is further reinforced by a unique understanding of professional obligations, specifically the Hippocratic Oath's admonition to 'use my power to help the sick to the best of my ability and judgment' as an imperative to do everything for the patient regardless of cost or effect on others."

In numerous writings, Dr. Emanuel chastises physicians for thinking only about their own patient's needs. He describes it as an intractable problem: "Patients were to receive whatever services they needed, regardless of its cost. Reasoning based on cost has been strenuously resisted; it violated the Hippocratic Oath, was associated with rationing, and derided as putting a price on life. . . . Indeed, many physicians were willing to lie to get patients what they needed from insurance companies that were trying to hold down costs." (JAMA, May 16, 2007).

Of course, patients hope their doctors will have that single-minded devotion. But Dr. Emanuel believes doctors should serve two masters, the patient and society, and that medical students should be trained "to provide socially sustainable, cost-effective care." One sign of progress he sees: "the progression in end-of-life care mentality from 'do everything' to more palliative care shows that change in physician norms and practices is possible." (JAMA, June 18, 2008).

...

------------------------

So while everyone yells about myths and lies...it seems some of the presidential advisors are recommending just those things.


The biggest and most maladaptive LIES are those built on partial truths...If there were any such thing as eternal hell fire, Karl Rove would definitely be facing it...
TheRestofUs
Amazing how when someone likes something they are for more funding.
amy
QUOTE(Indianhead @ Aug 21 2009, 04:22 PM) *
We have a proposition suggesting government take over of health care and hospitals.
Even if you trust a current federal official, what gaurantees that another...
say...a Bush...comes and determines that health care for some is less important than others?

Who has a proposition that govt should take over healthcare and hospitals? ?
Anyway, laws that accompany healthcare legislation would protect citizens from that scenario if we did have single payer government run healthcare. Private insurance companies deny people all the time....and they also refuse to pay bills for those that are covered.....and they are profit driven......

My personal preference would be for a single payer, govt run healthcare system that would also allow people of means to purchase private insurance (gold standard type of thing).

But, that's not going to happen in the U.S.
Indianhead
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 27 2009, 09:12 AM) *
The biggest and most maladaptive LIES are those built on partial truths...If there were any such thing as eternal hell fire, Karl Rove would definitely be facing it...


I think the biggest lies are often built on simplistic slogans such as "hope" and "change",
which are so simple they contain only what the ear of the listener wants to hear. I expected someone
to start hating Rove...he is a piece of dung, but that doesn't mean he's always wrong...
no more than Daily Kos, The Huffington Post, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh etc. etc.

So, let me turn to an economist:



http://www.urban.org/publications/901272.html

Catastrophic Budget Failure
July 14, 2009
By Len Burman

Last month, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) published the latest version of what has become a very scary document called "The Long-Term Budget Outlook." CBO Director Doug Elmendorf is scheduled to walk the Senate Budget Committee through it on Thursday.

CBO, famous for understatement, concludes that "current policies are unsustainable." This is true whether it looks at the Obama administration's official budget or a future in which all of the Bush tax cuts expire and the middle class gets swallowed by the alternative minimum tax. What CBO means is, either way, we are doomed.

Here's what CBO predicts will happen if we continue current policies:

Next year, our debt will exceed 60 percent of our total economic output, or gross domestic product (GDP).
We would not meet the standards Poland and Estonia needed to qualify for admission into the European Union.

In 2023, our debt will exceed 100 percent of GDP — the highest level since World War II ended.

By 2076, debt will be more than 6.5 times GDP. Put differently, with current policies, there's no chance that children born today will get much of their promised Social Security and Medicare benefits.

The really bad news? This bleak scenario is wildly over-optimistic. It assumes that the economy keeps growing at historical rates, and interest rates on government bonds stay low.

But neither is likely to happen. As CBO says, parenthetically, "Starting in the 2060s, projected deficits become so large and unsustainable that CBO's textbook growth model cannot calculate their effects."

Translation: We're heading over a cliff!

CBO's projections assume that interest rates will stay low. But with these massive deficits, rates will eventually rise to reflect the growing riskiness of government bonds. Berkeley economist David Romer has shown that investors may, overnight, go from being willing to lend to the government at low rates to being afraid to hold T-bills at any price. If this happens, the rise in rates could be extreme — not just a percentage point or two.

Can't happen? It was just a few months ago when exactly the same fate befell highly rated corporate bonds. Suppose the Treasury held an auction and nobody came?

Ideally, this dismal situation will be averted. Investors should look at the CBO report and demand higher interest rates right now, and progressively steeper rates in the future if our fiscal house is not put in order. This would put pressure on policymakers to cut deficits.

Unfortunately, there are two problems with this self-correcting scenario. First, it might choke off a nascent recovery. Second, it assumes financial markets are rational and foresighted. Yeah, right. And remember much of our debt is held by foreigners whose cash fuels our purchases of their oil and consumer goods. They'll keep lending — at least for a while — to prop up their own economies.

When the bubble bursts, two things could happen, both bad. One is that the U.S. defaults on its bonds. This would cripple financial institutions that are legally required to hold government securities and create a foreign policy fiasco since other governments hold so much of our debt.

Or, we could print money to pay back the bonds coming due. This creates inflation - a lot of inflation. Think Weimar Republic or Argentina. (CBO helpfully points out that hyperinflation is economically inefficient since it drives people to barter.)

At the same time, the government would have no choice but to slash spending and raise taxes. This, plus very high interest rates, would drive the U.S. and world economies into a depression that could span decades — dwarfing today's painful downturn.

Taxes would rise to levels that would make a Scandinavian revolt. And the government would not be able to provide anything but the most basic public services. We would no longer be a great power (or even a mediocre one), and the social safety net would evaporate.

We can still avoid this disaster, but we need to act quickly. The sooner we move to reduce our deficits, the smaller the required tax increases and/or spending cuts will be. The reason is straightforward: The less debt we accumulate, the smaller our interest payments. On our current trajectory, CBO projects that by 2031, interest on the debt will cost more than Social Security. And, again, that assumes implausibly low interest rates.

So, after Mr. Elmendorf finishes explaining why our current policies are disastrous, I'd like all of the Senate Budget Committee members to say what they plan to do about it. If they answer "cut wasteful government spending" or "tax people making over $250,000," Mr. Elmendorf should remind them that we'd have to cut government spending or increase taxes by an average of 8.2 percent of GDP over the next 75 years to prevent the debt from increasing — and more if we continue to defer action. That sum equals all discretionary spending, including national defense, or all income tax collections in 2008. Cutting waste or taxing rich people alone isn't enough.

It's time to make some hard choices. Or we're doomed.


Len Burman is an Urban Institute senior fellow and co-director of the Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center.


TheRestofUs
QUOTE(Indianhead @ Aug 27 2009, 11:02 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 27 2009, 09:12 AM) *
The biggest and most maladaptive LIES are those built on partial truths...If there were any such thing as eternal hell fire, Karl Rove would definitely be facing it...


I think the biggest lies are often built on simplistic slogans such as "hope" and "change",
which are so simple they contain only what the ear of the listener wants to hear. I expected someone
to start hating Rove...he is a piece of dung, but that doesn't mean he's always wrong...
no more than Daily Kos, The Huffington Post, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh etc. etc.

So, let me turn to an economist:



http://www.urban.org/publications/901272.html

Catastrophic Budget Failure
July 14, 2009
By Len Burman

Last month, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) published the latest version of what has become a very scary document called "The Long-Term Budget Outlook." CBO Director Doug Elmendorf is scheduled to walk the Senate Budget Committee through it on Thursday.

CBO, famous for understatement, concludes that "current policies are unsustainable." This is true whether it looks at the Obama administration's official budget or a future in which all of the Bush tax cuts expire and the middle class gets swallowed by the alternative minimum tax. What CBO means is, either way, we are doomed.

Here's what CBO predicts will happen if we continue current policies:

Next year, our debt will exceed 60 percent of our total economic output, or gross domestic product (GDP).
We would not meet the standards Poland and Estonia needed to qualify for admission into the European Union.

In 2023, our debt will exceed 100 percent of GDP — the highest level since World War II ended.

By 2076, debt will be more than 6.5 times GDP. Put differently, with current policies, there's no chance that children born today will get much of their promised Social Security and Medicare benefits.

The really bad news? This bleak scenario is wildly over-optimistic. It assumes that the economy keeps growing at historical rates, and interest rates on government bonds stay low.

But neither is likely to happen. As CBO says, parenthetically, "Starting in the 2060s, projected deficits become so large and unsustainable that CBO's textbook growth model cannot calculate their effects."

Translation: We're heading over a cliff!

CBO's projections assume that interest rates will stay low. But with these massive deficits, rates will eventually rise to reflect the growing riskiness of government bonds. Berkeley economist David Romer has shown that investors may, overnight, go from being willing to lend to the government at low rates to being afraid to hold T-bills at any price. If this happens, the rise in rates could be extreme — not just a percentage point or two.

Can't happen? It was just a few months ago when exactly the same fate befell highly rated corporate bonds. Suppose the Treasury held an auction and nobody came?

Ideally, this dismal situation will be averted. Investors should look at the CBO report and demand higher interest rates right now, and progressively steeper rates in the future if our fiscal house is not put in order. This would put pressure on policymakers to cut deficits.

Unfortunately, there are two problems with this self-correcting scenario. First, it might choke off a nascent recovery. Second, it assumes financial markets are rational and foresighted. Yeah, right. And remember much of our debt is held by foreigners whose cash fuels our purchases of their oil and consumer goods. They'll keep lending — at least for a while — to prop up their own economies.

When the bubble bursts, two things could happen, both bad. One is that the U.S. defaults on its bonds. This would cripple financial institutions that are legally required to hold government securities and create a foreign policy fiasco since other governments hold so much of our debt.

Or, we could print money to pay back the bonds coming due. This creates inflation - a lot of inflation. Think Weimar Republic or Argentina. (CBO helpfully points out that hyperinflation is economically inefficient since it drives people to barter.)

At the same time, the government would have no choice but to slash spending and raise taxes. This, plus very high interest rates, would drive the U.S. and world economies into a depression that could span decades — dwarfing today's painful downturn.

Taxes would rise to levels that would make a Scandinavian revolt. And the government would not be able to provide anything but the most basic public services. We would no longer be a great power (or even a mediocre one), and the social safety net would evaporate.

We can still avoid this disaster, but we need to act quickly. The sooner we move to reduce our deficits, the smaller the required tax increases and/or spending cuts will be. The reason is straightforward: The less debt we accumulate, the smaller our interest payments. On our current trajectory, CBO projects that by 2031, interest on the debt will cost more than Social Security. And, again, that assumes implausibly low interest rates.

So, after Mr. Elmendorf finishes explaining why our current policies are disastrous, I'd like all of the Senate Budget Committee members to say what they plan to do about it. If they answer "cut wasteful government spending" or "tax people making over $250,000," Mr. Elmendorf should remind them that we'd have to cut government spending or increase taxes by an average of 8.2 percent of GDP over the next 75 years to prevent the debt from increasing — and more if we continue to defer action. That sum equals all discretionary spending, including national defense, or all income tax collections in 2008. Cutting waste or taxing rich people alone isn't enough.

It's time to make some hard choices. Or we're doomed.


Len Burman is an Urban Institute senior fellow and co-director of the Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center.

Gee! I wonder how we all got here?
rla
I totally agree IH, that the country is in deep do do...On every major dimension of domestic policy and of foreign
policy, all systems have been set on a default of system's destruct for several decades and especially this past decade. The Obama Campaign promised CHANGE. The Obama Administration has not delivered on this promis.
They just keep on doing what the Bush administration was doing...The Democratic Congress just keeps on doing what the Republican Congress was doing. Apparently we are going to have to hit bottom before enough people
can sufficient awareness to realize we have to start over...
amy
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 27 2009, 02:32 PM) *
I totally agree IH, that the country is in deep do do...On every major dimension of domestic policy and of foreign
policy, all systems have been set on a default of system's destruct for several decades and especially this past decade. The Obama Campaign promised CHANGE. The Obama Administration has not delivered on this promis.
They just keep on doing what the Bush administration was doing...The Democratic Congress just keeps on doing what the Republican Congress was doing. Apparently we are going to have to hit bottom before enough people
can sufficient awareness to realize we have to start over...


What do you think Obama should be doing? What promises has he broken?
Indianhead
QUOTE(amy @ Aug 27 2009, 03:31 PM) *
What do you think Obama should be doing? What promises has he broken?


Let's start here...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/13/i...i_n_258285.html

A memo obtained by the Huffington Post confirms that the White House and the pharmaceutical lobby secretly agreed to precisely the sort of wide-ranging deal that both parties have been denying over the past week.

The memo, which according to a knowledgeable health care lobbyist was prepared by a person directly involved in the negotiations, lists exactly what the White House gave up, and what it got in return.

It says the White House agreed to oppose any congressional efforts to use the government's leverage to bargain for lower drug prices or import drugs from Canada -- and also agreed not to pursue Medicare rebates or shift some drugs from Medicare Part B to Medicare Part D, which would cost Big Pharma billions in reduced reimbursements.

In exchange, the Pharmaceutical Researchers and Manufacturers Association (PhRMA) agreed to cut $80 billion in projected costs to taxpayers and senior citizens over ten years. Or, as the memo says: "Commitment of up to $80 billion, but not more than $80 billion."

...

And over the past several days, both the White House and PhRMA have offered a series of sometimes conflicting accounts of what happened in an attempt to walk back the story.

The White House meeting took place on July 7th, as first reported that evening in the Wall Street Journal. Also on the same day, a health care lobbyist following the talks was provided the outline of the deal by a person inside the negotiations. That outline had been floating around K Street before being obtained by the Huffington Post. In order to learn more about its origin, HuffPost agreed not to reveal the name of the lobbyist who originally received it.

"That is the PhRMA deal," said the lobbyist of the outline. He then clarified, "It was the PhRMA deal."

The deal, as outlined in the memo:
Commitment of up to $80 billion, but not more than $80 billion.
1. Agree to increase of Medicaid rebate from 15.1 - 23.1% ($34 billion)

2. Agree to get FOBs done (but no agreement on details -- express disagreement on data exclusivity which both sides say does not affect the score of the legislation.) ($9 billion)

3. Sell drugs to patients in the donut hole at 50% discount ($25 billion)
This totals $68 billion

4. Companies will be assessed a tax or fee that will score at $12 billion. There was no agreement as to how or on what this tax/fee will be based.

Total: $80 billion

In exchange for these items, the White House agreed to:

1. Oppose importation

2. Oppose rebates in Medicare Part D

3. Oppose repeal of non-interference

4. Oppose opening Medicare Part B


"Non-interference" is the industry term for the status quo, in which government-driven price negotiations are barred. In other words, the government is "interfering" in the market if it negotiates lower prices. The ban on negotiating was led through Congress in 2003 by then-Rep. Billy Tauzin (R-La.), who is now the head of PhRMA.

The rebates reference is to Medicare overpayments Big Pharma managed to wrangle from the Republican Congress that Democrats are trying to recoup. The House bill would require Big Pharma to return some of that money. The rebate proposal would save $63 billion over ten years, according to the Congressional Budget Office. The White House, given the chance, declined to tell the Wall Street Journal for a July 17th article that it supported the effort to pursue the rebates.

The Medicare Part B item refers to "infusion drugs," which can be administered at home. If they fall under Part B, Big Pharma gets paid more than under Part D. The agreement would leave infusion drugs in Part B.

In the section on Big Pharma's concessions, "FOBs" refers to follow-on biological drugs. Democrats have pushed to make it easier to allow generic drug makers to produce cheaper versions of such drugs, an effort Big Pharma has resisted. The Senate health committee bill gives drug makers 12 years of market exclusivity, five more than the White House proposed.

PhRMA's Johnson cast doubts on the provenance of the outline. "The memo, as described, is simply not accurate," he said in a statement. "Anyone could have written it. Unless it comes from our board of directors, it's not worth the paper it's written on. Clearly, someone is trying to short circuit our efforts to try and make health care reform a reality this year. That's not going to happen. Too much is at stake for both patients and the U.S. economy. Our new ads supporting health care reform are starting this week, and we are redoubling our efforts to drive awareness of why this issue is so important to America's future."

Johnson added that "no outside lobbyists -- not a single one -- were ever involved in our discussions with the Senate Finance Committee or the White House so someone is blowing smoke."

But the lobbyist who was given the outline defended its authenticity. And although the White House now says that drug price negotiations and reimportation were not actually discussed in the talks with PhRMA, the lobbyist said: "Well, that's bull -- that's baloney. That was part of the deal, for them not to push that."

...

...since this is a health care thread I leave out the Wall Street investment bank schnanigans...
Indianhead
This is long...but, oh so good...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...ST2009090702562

10 Things I Hate About Health-Care Reform
One Doctor's Orders for How To Really Fix Our System


By Arthur M. Feldman
Sunday, September 6, 2009

As a cardiologist and the administrator of a large practice that includes general internists and specialists, I spend much of my time trying to figure out how to provide care for a growing number of uninsured or underinsured patients. I also have to battle billion-dollar private insurance companies that don't adequately cover patients with preexisting illnesses and often deny coverage for necessary treatments.

5. We need more primary-care physicians -- but we also need specialists.

Everyone is worried about the dwindling ranks of primary-care physicians. But we need more specialists, too. There are impending shortages in fields such as oncology, cardiology, general surgery and gastroenterology. An article in the American Heart Association's journal Circulation noted that by 2020 there won't be enough cardiothoracic surgeons to treat the growing number of American seniors. Surgery, the journal of the Society of University Surgeons, reported an expected shortage of 1,300 general surgeons in the United States by 2010. Few Americans will tolerate not having access to a specialist in an emergency or having care rationed because of a limited number of skilled physicians.

6. We have to streamline drug development and shake up the Food and Drug Administration.

Creating and producing new drug therapies in the United States is a nightmare. Regulatory hurdles, disorganization and a lack of leadership at the FDA, as well as burdensome conflict-of-interest policies, have made the drug-approval process grindingly slow. At the same time, development costs are close to $1 billion per drug. Federal regulations are so convoluted that most clinical trials are now performed outside the country -- taking billions of dollars out of the U.S. economy and making it harder for American patients to be first in line for new treatments.

7. We can't fund health-care reform by cutting payments to doctors.

This isn't about one doctor looking out for his bottom line. It's about physicians being able to provide the accessibility and quality of care that their patients want. The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services has proposed increasing payments to primary-care physicians by approximately 6 percent while lowering payments for many specialists, including cardiologists and oncologists, by as much as 20 to 40 percent. These drastic recommendations were based on a questionable American Medical Association physician survey showing that expenses for cardiology and oncology practices dropped precipitously over the past five years -- a finding that defies logic. If these cuts are approved, the American College of Cardiology estimates that 40 percent of the cardiology practices in Florida will go bankrupt. We need to pay for performance, not automatically reduce fees for procedures that patients have come to expect.

8. We can't forget about research.

Every modern treatment for human disease is related in some way to research at U.S. academic medical centers -- much of it supported by the National Institutes of Health. These include new treatments for cancer, devices to prevent sudden cardiac death and medications that save the lives of patients having heart attacks.

However, decreased federal funding for research over the past six years has threatened to decimate a generation of young scientists and the cures they could discover. While the stimulus package provided $10 billion for NIH-supported research, the allocation was for only two years. The health-care reform legislation provides no information about the level of research funding after 2011.

9. Cutting reimbursements could shut some hospitals down.

Proponents of the current reform legislation know that no one wants their local hospital to close. So the White House's initial call to pay for health-care reform through cuts of more than $200 billion in hospital reimbursements over the next decade was scary. Obama sought to reassure people in June, explaining that "if more Americans are insured, we can cut payments that help hospitals treat patients without health insurance." But there is no data to support this promise. It is unlikely that the homeless, the mentally ill, the substance abusers or the illegal immigrants who now receive their care in "safety net" hospitals will carry any form of health insurance. Grady Memorial Hospital, one of the premier public hospitals in the United States, which has cared for the underserved residents of Atlanta for more than a century, would probably have closed its doors had it not been for a $200 million gift from a local benefactor.

10. We need to improve the quality of care.

Obama has said that "if doctors have incentives to provide the best care instead of more care, we can help Americans avoid the unnecessary hospital stays, treatments and tests that drive up costs." This is an overly simplistic view of what is needed. Poor care clearly costs more money. However, as the Institute of Medicine has pointed out, poor quality of care can be divided into three types: underuse of care, misuse of care and overuse of care. While eliminating misuse and overuse will decrease the cost of care, correcting problems from underuse will actually increase costs.

I have a close view of the limitations of our current health-care system. Not just with my patients, who are often unable to afford the care they need, but also in the plight of a young colleague. He was diagnosed with an aggressive form of lung cancer and sought treatment at a nationally renowned Boston cancer center. Most people with lung cancer undergo expensive chemotherapy and radiation therapy, but even those aggressive measures have a limited effect on long-term survival. His physicians discovered that he had a type of cancer that might respond to a new drug in clinical testing, provided free by the pharmaceutical company sponsoring the research. Although the cost of his care is far less than that of traditional chemotherapy, his insurance company refused to pay for it because it is "experimental."

But he has been lucky. His friends and colleagues have helped support his treatment, and wherever possible his doctors have provided free care. His cancer has responded dramatically to the drug, he has suffered no side effects, and he is back at work full-time.

However, I don't want my patients to rely on luck. I want them to have insurance that will pay for their care, and I want to be able to offer new medications and the most sophisticated treatment. I want to be able to give preventive care as well as to monitor patients effectively if they develop diseases. I want to be able care for my patients in their homes, and I want to offer palliative care if it becomes necessary. I want them to be able to afford all this. In short, I want to see major reforms in health care -- I just don't want what is on the table.

Arthur.Feldman@jefferson.edu

Arthur M. Feldman is a cardiologist and chair of the department of medicine at Jefferson Medical College. He is the author of "Pursuing Excellence in Healthcare: Preserving America's Academic Medical Centers."

--------------------------

Imagine, a doctor's viewpoint....on health care... rolleyes.gif
amy
I've read that there is not a shortage of specialists in the U.S.The problem is that the specialists, like cardiologists, tend to practice where it is most lucrative and shy away from less populated areas, so the seniors in those areas are short changed.

Money talks.....maybe the govt could provide incentives for specialists to move to areas where it's less lucrative for them.

rla
QUOTE(amy @ Sep 8 2009, 10:35 AM) *
I've read that there is not a shortage of specialists in the U.S.The problem is that the specialists, like cardiologists, tend to practice where it is most lucrative and shy away from less populated areas, so the seniors in those areas are short changed.

Money talks.....maybe the govt could provide incentives for specialists to move to areas where it's less lucrative for them.


We can not ever afford a Medical Model of intervention. If we transformed our system into a Wellness Model we could get much better results with half the current expense...
amy
QUOTE(rla @ Sep 8 2009, 11:47 AM) *
QUOTE(amy @ Sep 8 2009, 10:35 AM) *
I've read that there is not a shortage of specialists in the U.S.The problem is that the specialists, like cardiologists, tend to practice where it is most lucrative and shy away from less populated areas, so the seniors in those areas are short changed.

Money talks.....maybe the govt could provide incentives for specialists to move to areas where it's less lucrative for them.


We can not ever afford a Medical Model of intervention. If we transformed our system into a Wellness Model we could get much better results with half the current expense...


Sure...a medical model is driven by conflicting interests, at times. The self interest of the physicians ( money) and the interest of the patients. I don't blame physicians for wanting to make "high end" salary...they spend a lot of time being educated. However, I think many specialists are "spoiled" in that they are accustomed to huge incomes and anything that threatens that level of income will not be acceptable to many or most of them. Reasonable methods for bringing down malpractice insurance premiums would probably improve their attitudes......
rla
QUOTE(amy @ Sep 8 2009, 11:03 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Sep 8 2009, 11:47 AM) *
QUOTE(amy @ Sep 8 2009, 10:35 AM) *
I've read that there is not a shortage of specialists in the U.S.The problem is that the specialists, like cardiologists, tend to practice where it is most lucrative and shy away from less populated areas, so the seniors in those areas are short changed.

Money talks.....maybe the govt could provide incentives for specialists to move to areas where it's less lucrative for them.


We can not ever afford a Medical Model of intervention. If we transformed our system into a Wellness Model we could get much better results with half the current expense...


Sure...a medical model is driven by conflicting interests, at times. The self interest of the physicians ( money) and the interest of the patients. I don't blame physicians for wanting to make "high end" salary...they spend a lot of time being educated. However, I think many specialists are "spoiled" in that they are accustomed to huge incomes and anything that threatens that level of income will not be acceptable to many or most of them. Reasonable methods for bringing down malpractice insurance premiums would probably improve their attitudes......


I am not arguing against a fee for service professional practice of Medicine--only that we keep a system's perspective and keep it in the context of maintaining healthy families in healthy communities.
Treating disease is an important part of this but only a part--I think a single payer system would work best for us in the context of channeling our effort towards Wellness first...
Indianhead
Actually rural areas do draw doctors and relatively good medical attention.
And, as far as the urban/rural paradige goes...so goes many of the healthcare
debate problems (or why the government should not get into MY healthcare):


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/08/health/p.../08cost.html?em

...
The agreement with House Democratic leaders is to be incorporated in legislation that goes to the House floor. The plan calls for studies by the National Academy of Sciences and action by the secretary of health and human services to reduce geographic disparities in Medicare spending. The goal is to base payments on “value,” defined as the efficient delivery of high-quality care.

Among those who championed these changes are Representatives Bruce Braley of Iowa, Jay Inslee of Washington and Ron Kind of Wisconsin, all Democrats, as well as the Mayo Clinic and the Marshfield Clinic, in Wisconsin. They contend that Medicare has shortchanged their areas, where Medicare spending is relatively low but the quality of care is high.

In 2006, Medicare spent $6,671 on the average beneficiary in Waterloo, Iowa, compared with $16,351 in Miami,” said Mr. Braley, who lives in Waterloo.

Representative David R. Obey, Democrat of Wisconsin and chairman of the House Appropriations Committee, recently told the administration, “These reimbursement disparities are outrageous.”

Dr. Karl J. Ulrich, president of the Marshfield Clinic, said Medicare’s payment system rewarded inefficiency and poor quality while punishing places like Marshfield for their “conservative medical practices.”

House Democratic leaders desperately need the votes of moderate Democrats from rural areas, like Representative Earl Pomeroy of North Dakota. In the Ways and Means Committee in July, Mr. Pomeroy voted against the health care bill, saying it would not correct the underpayment of hospitals in his state.

---------------------------

So it seems "the lies and distortions" don't include the fact that rural healthcare payments are subsidizing urban healthcare payments (where there are larger poor poputations, according to claims by represenatives from NY and Boston) and therefore it makes sense that any expansion of healthcare would substancially expand that disparity. Back to the drawing board guys. Oh yeah one more thing : healthcare is no more :"a right" than a college diploma, a new car, or a 4,000-sq-ft home.

graham4anything
until you write precicesly what your insurance is

what it covers
what % it covers
what your lifetime cap is

what is not coverred

how many days in hospital
how many doctors? Anyone?

do you need permission

how is it guaranteed your rate don't rise?

what guarantees the guarantee

until all of that, we just do NOT believe you

so divy up some proof and show us the money
rla
QUOTE(Indianhead @ Sep 8 2009, 12:29 PM) *
Actually rural areas do draw doctors and relatively good medical attention.
And, as far as the urban/rural paradige goes...so goes many of the healthcare
debate problems (or why the government should not get into MY healthcare):


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/08/health/p.../08cost.html?em

...
The agreement with House Democratic leaders is to be incorporated in legislation that goes to the House floor. The plan calls for studies by the National Academy of Sciences and action by the secretary of health and human services to reduce geographic disparities in Medicare spending. The goal is to base payments on “value,” defined as the efficient delivery of high-quality care.

Among those who championed these changes are Representatives Bruce Braley of Iowa, Jay Inslee of Washington and Ron Kind of Wisconsin, all Democrats, as well as the Mayo Clinic and the Marshfield Clinic, in Wisconsin. They contend that Medicare has shortchanged their areas, where Medicare spending is relatively low but the quality of care is high.

In 2006, Medicare spent $6,671 on the average beneficiary in Waterloo, Iowa, compared with $16,351 in Miami,” said Mr. Braley, who lives in Waterloo.

Representative David R. Obey, Democrat of Wisconsin and chairman of the House Appropriations Committee, recently told the administration, “These reimbursement disparities are outrageous.”

Dr. Karl J. Ulrich, president of the Marshfield Clinic, said Medicare’s payment system rewarded inefficiency and poor quality while punishing places like Marshfield for their “conservative medical practices.”

House Democratic leaders desperately need the votes of moderate Democrats from rural areas, like Representative Earl Pomeroy of North Dakota. In the Ways and Means Committee in July, Mr. Pomeroy voted against the health care bill, saying it would not correct the underpayment of hospitals in his state.

---------------------------

So it seems "the lies and distortions" don't include the fact that rural healthcare payments are subsidizing urban healthcare payments (where there are larger poor poputations, according to claims by represenatives from NY and Boston) and therefore it makes sense that any expansion of healthcare would substancially expand that disparity. Back to the drawing board guys. Oh yeah one more thing : healthcare is no more :"a right" than a college diploma, a new car, or a 4,000-sq-ft home.


Entitlement is probably a better term for what health care should be in a humanitarian constitutional democratic
republic with an open market economy than the term right...
Indianhead
QUOTE(graham4anything @ Sep 8 2009, 12:40 PM) *
until you write precicesly what your insurance is

what it covers
what % it covers
what your lifetime cap is

what is not coverred

how many days in hospital
how many doctors? Anyone?

do you need permission

how is it guaranteed your rate don't rise?

what guarantees the guarantee

until all of that, we just do NOT believe you

so divy up some proof and show us the money


laugh.gif You first.
And, while you're at it include your bank account numbers,
ATM PIN number, address, latest tax filing and birth certificate.
laugh.gif

QUOTE(rla @ Sep 8 2009, 12:51 PM) *
Entitlement is probably a better term for what health care should be in a humanitarian constitutional democratic
republic with an open market economy than the term right...


I agree...and I believe there is room to debate entitlement.
I think those who want to use the term "right" want to avoid said debate.
rla
QUOTE(Indianhead @ Sep 8 2009, 03:00 PM) *
QUOTE(graham4anything @ Sep 8 2009, 12:40 PM) *
until you write precicesly what your insurance is

what it covers
what % it covers
what your lifetime cap is

what is not coverred

how many days in hospital
how many doctors? Anyone?

do you need permission

how is it guaranteed your rate don't rise?

what guarantees the guarantee

until all of that, we just do NOT believe you

so divy up some proof and show us the money


laugh.gif You first.
And, while you're at it include your bank account numbers,
ATM PIN number, address, latest tax filing and birth certificate.
laugh.gif

QUOTE(rla @ Sep 8 2009, 12:51 PM) *
Entitlement is probably a better term for what health care should be in a humanitarian constitutional democratic
republic with an open market economy than the term right...


I agree...and I believe there is room to debate entitlement.
I think those who want to use the term "right" want to avoid said debate.



That's probably true of some of the individuals that say health care is a right but not all...
amy
QUOTE(Indianhead @ Sep 8 2009, 01:29 PM) *
Actually rural areas do draw doctors and relatively good medical attention.
And, as far as the urban/rural paradige goes...so goes many of the healthcare
debate problems (or why the government should not get into MY healthcare):


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/08/health/p.../08cost.html?em

...
The agreement with House Democratic leaders is to be incorporated in legislation that goes to the House floor. The plan calls for studies by the National Academy of Sciences and action by the secretary of health and human services to reduce geographic disparities in Medicare spending. The goal is to base payments on “value,” defined as the efficient delivery of high-quality care.

Among those who championed these changes are Representatives Bruce Braley of Iowa, Jay Inslee of Washington and Ron Kind of Wisconsin, all Democrats, as well as the Mayo Clinic and the Marshfield Clinic, in Wisconsin. They contend that Medicare has shortchanged their areas, where Medicare spending is relatively low but the quality of care is high.

In 2006, Medicare spent $6,671 on the average beneficiary in Waterloo, Iowa, compared with $16,351 in Miami,” said Mr. Braley, who lives in Waterloo.

Representative David R. Obey, Democrat of Wisconsin and chairman of the House Appropriations Committee, recently told the administration, “These reimbursement disparities are outrageous.”

Dr. Karl J. Ulrich, president of the Marshfield Clinic, said Medicare’s payment system rewarded inefficiency and poor quality while punishing places like Marshfield for their “conservative medical practices.”

House Democratic leaders desperately need the votes of moderate Democrats from rural areas, like Representative Earl Pomeroy of North Dakota. In the Ways and Means Committee in July, Mr. Pomeroy voted against the health care bill, saying it would not correct the underpayment of hospitals in his state.

---------------------------

So it seems "the lies and distortions" don't include the fact that rural healthcare payments are subsidizing urban healthcare payments (where there are larger poor poputations, according to claims by represenatives from NY and Boston) and therefore it makes sense that any expansion of healthcare would substancially expand that disparity. Back to the drawing board guys. Oh yeah one more thing : healthcare is no more :"a right" than a college diploma, a new car, or a 4,000-sq-ft home.


I'm saying, according to what I've read, there is really no shortage of "specialists" in our nation......there is a shortage of family doctors, GPs in rural areas.....
amy
QUOTE(rla @ Sep 8 2009, 12:44 PM) *
QUOTE(amy @ Sep 8 2009, 11:03 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Sep 8 2009, 11:47 AM) *
QUOTE(amy @ Sep 8 2009, 10:35 AM) *
I've read that there is not a shortage of specialists in the U.S.The problem is that the specialists, like cardiologists, tend to practice where it is most lucrative and shy away from less populated areas, so the seniors in those areas are short changed.

Money talks.....maybe the govt could provide incentives for specialists to move to areas where it's less lucrative for them.


We can not ever afford a Medical Model of intervention. If we transformed our system into a Wellness Model we could get much better results with half the current expense...


Sure...a medical model is driven by conflicting interests, at times. The self interest of the physicians ( money) and the interest of the patients. I don't blame physicians for wanting to make "high end" salary...they spend a lot of time being educated. However, I think many specialists are "spoiled" in that they are accustomed to huge incomes and anything that threatens that level of income will not be acceptable to many or most of them. Reasonable methods for bringing down malpractice insurance premiums would probably improve their attitudes......


I am not arguing against a fee for service professional practice of Medicine--only that we keep a system's perspective and keep it in the context of maintaining healthy families in healthy communities.
Treating disease is an important part of this but only a part--I think a single payer system would work best for us in the context of channeling our effort towards Wellness first...


I agree.
Indianhead
QUOTE(amy @ Sep 8 2009, 03:19 PM) *
I'm saying, according to what I've read, there is really no shortage of "specialists" in our nation......there is a shortage of family doctors, GPs in rural areas.....


While we don't seem to have the problem in this rural area, I can imagine that some do.
However, that brings me back to wonder...how will we cover an extra 47 million with doctor shortages?
Perhaps we could work on relieving doctor shortages before dramatically increasing patient demand?
Maybe I'm cold, but the reform plans out there don't seem to have sufficiently logical math
as a foundation...for demand, services, providers and funding. But, nothing wrong with a "work in progress".

amy
QUOTE(Indianhead @ Sep 8 2009, 04:32 PM) *
QUOTE(amy @ Sep 8 2009, 03:19 PM) *
I'm saying, according to what I've read, there is really no shortage of "specialists" in our nation......there is a shortage of family doctors, GPs in rural areas.....


While we don't seem to have the problem in this rural area, I can imagine that some do.
However, that brings me back to wonder...how will we cover an extra 47 million with doctor shortages?
Perhaps we could work on relieving doctor shortages before dramatically increasing patient demand?
Maybe I'm cold, but the reform plans out there don't seem to have sufficiently logical math
as a foundation...for demand, services, providers and funding. But, nothing wrong with a "work in progress".


Well I don't think people should remain uninsured because we have a shortage of doctors in some areas.
I guess we'll just have to produce more doctors!.Give incentives for people to go to med school and then work in under-served areas, at least for a while....just like the military does..... it pays for med school (or maybe most of it) then you owe them so many years.....

Indianhead
The easiest way to encourage more docs is tort reform, IMO.
Expanding government limitations on medical payments sure won't do it.
Also...you don't expand demand before supply...unless you accept higher costs...
economics 101. Someone up there just refuses to do real math.

But, the public can do the math it seems:


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/polit...oll_091309.html

Washington Post Poll
This Washington Post-ABC News poll was conducted by telephone Sept. 10-12, 2009,
among a random national sample of 1,007 adults including users of both conventional
and cellular phones. The results from the full survey have a margin of sampling error
of plus or minus three points. Sampling, data collection and tabulation by TNS of Horsham, Pa.

...

16. Overall, given what you know about them, would you say you support or oppose the proposed
changes to the health care system being developed by (Congress) and (the Obama administration)?
Do you feel that way strongly or somewhat?


9/12/09
SUPPORT
Net:46
Strongly: 30
Somewhat: 16

OPPOSE
Net:48
Strongly: 36
Somewhat:12


No opinion: 6


18. Which of these comes closest to your own view: (The more I hear about the health care
plan, the more I like it) or (The more I hear about the health care plan, the less I like it).

9/12/09
More I like it: 41
Less I like it: 54
No Opinion: 5


It's easy to see why they wanted to rush it through before the August break...

Indianhead
As legislation (like sausage) is being made...
it's not easily stomached because: The Devil is in the details.


http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20090919-700883.html
SEPTEMBER 19, 2009, 4:35 P.M. ET
Senate Democrats Take Aim At Health Insurance Excise Tax Plan

By Martin Vaughan and Patrick Yoest
Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES

WASHINGTON (Dow Jones)--Senate Finance Committee Democrats are taking aim at the excise tax on
high-dollar insurance premiums that is the central funding source for the health overhaul legislation proposed
by Finance panel chairman Max Baucus, D-Mont.

(BTW: Unions object to this)

A majority of Democrats on the committee have proposed changes that would reduce the impact of the tax
or exempt some favored group, according to a list of amendments released ahead of a committee meeting
to consider the health bill slated for Tuesday.

To replace the revenues that would be lost from slimming down the insurance tax, some including
Sens. John Kerry, D-Mass., and Sen. Jay Rockefeller, D-W. Va., are seeking to revive a proposal first put forward
by President Barack Obama to reduce itemized tax deductions for the wealthiest.

Baucus has already signaled that changes to his proposal are likely even before the formal process
of offering amendments gets under way next week. The Finance session is important because it will test support
from Democrats and one vital Republican - Sen. Olympia Snowe of Maine - for a more centrist version of
health system overhaul.

Snowe also is seeking changes to the excise tax, and filed an amendment to lessen the tax's impact
on plans that cover people older than 55.

Rockefeller and others are proposing to exempt "high-risk professions," like coal-mining, from the tax
on gold-plated plans, while Sen. Debbie Stabenow, D-Mich., would exempt plans that cover retirees.

As expected, Rockefeller also plans to aim at the bill's omission of a public health insurance option.
Rockefeller plans to introduce an amendment that would include a public health insurance option that
would initial pay doctors and hospitals based on current Medicare payment rates.

An amendment offered by Snowe would establish a "fallback" insurance plan offered by a non-profit
government entity in states in which a specified proportion of residents do not have access to a low-priced
private insurance plan. Often referred to as a public option "trigger," the language would take effect only if
less than 95% of residents have access to a plan that costs 13% of their income or less.

Another Rockefeller amendment would strip out a part of the bill that would provide federal start-up funding
for non-profit health care co-operatives. Rockefeller argues that the co-ops are unproven on a large scale
and that co-ops currently in place operate much like private insurers.

Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., also offers an amendment that would scrap the bill's section co-ops and put
in place a public health insurance option. Schumer's version of the public plan would not base payments on
Medicare and would not require hospital and would require the plan to support itself financially after the
federal government paid initial start-up costs.

Another of Rockefeller's amendments would increase the requirements for "actuarial value" for insurance plans
in the exchange, in order for them to cover more of a patients' costs. Rockefeller seeks to fund this and other
amendments with a cap on itemized deductions, which was proposed earlier this year by President Obama
but saw little enthusiasm in Congress.

A number of senators filed amendments making health insurance more affordable to low-income people.
One such amendment, offered by Kerry and Sen. Robert Menendez, D-N.J., would increase federal subsidies
available to those from 100% to 400% of the federal poverty level.

The Kerry-Menendez amendment would be paid for by closing unspecified "corporate tax loopholes."

Republicans seem likely to use their amendments to make the charge that the Baucus bill would break
President Obama's campaign promise not to raise taxes on the middle class. Sens. Mike Crapo, R-Idaho,
Pat Roberts, R-Kans., and John Ensign, R-Nev., filed an amendment that no fee or penalty in the bill -
including penalties for failing to purchase insurance - would apply to an individual making less than $200,000
or a married couple with income of less than $250,000.


Sens. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, and Jon Kyl, R-Ariz., also filed amendments to strike taxes on insurers,
drug-makers, medical device makers and clinical laboratories from the bill.
But no Democrat has taken up
that cause, according to the amendment list.

Grassley, who on Monday issued broad criticisms of the Baucus bill, also has an amendment that would remove
a requirement that individuals carry insurance.


Another Grassley amendment would, during an economic recession, suspend a requirement that employers
provide insurance coverage or help pay federal costs of insuring their employees.

Two other Grassley amendments would aim to blunt the effect of proposed cuts in the bill to privately-run Medicare
plans. The bill currently seeks to curb federal subsidies to the plan and establish a new bidding system that would likely
cut the federal government's payments to private insurers to run the plans[b](Medicare Advantage)
.

One of the amendments would require the Department of Health and Human Services to certify that the Medicare Advantage
changes would not affect access to the plans in rural areas, while another would require the department to certify that the bill
would not result in a loss of benefits to seniors enrolled in Medicare Advantage plans
. Both requirements would have to be met
for the bill's changes to the program to take place.
--------------------------

Then there is scrutiny of the idea of the federal government can
force people to buy health insurance or be "fined"...or is that "taxed"?


---------------------------
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405...emEditorialPage
OPINION
SEPTEMBER 18, 2009

Mandatory Insurance Is Unconstitutional
Why an individual mandate could be struck down by the courts.


By DAVID B. RIVKIN JR. AND LEE A. CASEY

Federal legislation requiring that every American have health insurance is part of all the major health-care reform plans
now being considered in Washington. Such a mandate, however, would expand the federal government’s authority over
individual Americans to an unprecedented degree. It is also profoundly unconstitutional.


An individual mandate has been a hardy perennial of health-care reform proposals since HillaryCare in the early 1990s.
President Barack Obama defended its merits before Congress last week, claiming that uninsured people still use medical services
and impose the costs on everyone else. But the reality is far different. Certainly some uninsured use emergency rooms in lieu of
primary care physicians, but the majority are young people who forgo insurance precisely because they do not expect to need
much medical care. When they do, these uninsured pay full freight, often at premium rates, thereby actually subsidizing insured Americans.


The mandate's real justifications are far more cynical and political. Making healthy young adults pay billions of dollars in premiums
into the national health-care market is the only way to fund universal coverage without raising substantial new taxes. In effect, this mandate
would be one more giant, cross-generational subsidy—imposed on generations who are already stuck with the bill for the federal government's prior spending sprees.


Politically, of course, the mandate is essential to winning insurance industry support for the legislation and acceptance of heavy
federal regulations. Millions of new customers will be driven into insurance-company arms. Moreover, without the mandate, the entire thrust
of the new regulatory scheme—requiring insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions and to accept standardized premiums—
would produce dysfunctional consequences. It would make little sense for anyone, young or old, to buy insurance before he actually got sick.
Such a socialization of costs also happens to be an essential step toward the single payer, national health system, still stridently supported
by large parts of the president's base.


The elephant in the room is the Constitution. As every civics class once taught, the federal government is a government of limited,
enumerated powers, with the states retaining broad regulatory authority. As James Madison explained in the Federalist Papers:
"n the first place it is to be remembered that the general government is not to be charged with the whole power of making and
administering laws. Its jurisdiction is limited to certain enumerated objects." Congress, in other words, cannot regulate simply because
it sees a problem to be fixed. Federal law must be grounded in one of the specific grants of authority found in the Constitution.

These are mostly found in Article I, Section 8, which among other things gives Congress the power to tax, borrow and spend money,
raise and support armies, declare war, establish post offices and regulate commerce. It is the authority to regulate foreign and interstate commerce
that—in one way or another—supports most of the elaborate federal regulatory system. If the federal government has any right to reform,
revise or remake the American health-care system, it must be found in this all-important provision. This is especially true of any mandate
that every American obtain health-care insurance or face a penalty.

The Supreme Court construes the commerce power broadly. In the most recent Commerce Clause case, Gonzales v. Raich (2005) ,
the court ruled that Congress can even regulate the cultivation of marijuana for personal use so long as there is a rational basis to believe
that such "activities, taken in the aggregate, substantially affect interstate commerce."

But there are important limits. In United States v. Lopez (1995), for example, the Court invalidated the Gun Free School Zones Act
because that law made it a crime simply to possess a gun near a school. It did not "regulate any economic activity and did not contain
any requirement that the possession of a gun have any connection to past interstate activity or a predictable impact on future
commercial activity." Of course, a health-care mandate would not regulate any "activity," such as employment or growing pot
in the bathroom, at all. Simply being an American would trigger it.

Health-care backers understand this and—like Lewis Carroll's Red Queen insisting that some hills are valleys—have framed the mandate as a "tax"
rather than a regulation. Under Sen. Max Baucus's (D., Mont.) most recent plan, people who do not maintain health insurance for themselves
and their families would be forced to pay an "excise tax" of up to $1,500 per year
—roughly comparable to the cost of insurance coverage under the new plan.

But Congress cannot so simply avoid the constitutional limits on its power. Taxation can favor one industry or course of action over another,
but a "tax" that falls exclusively on anyone who is uninsured is a penalty beyond Congress's authority. If the rule were otherwise, Congress
could evade all constitutional limits by "taxing" anyone who doesn't follow an order of any kind—whether to obtain health-care insurance,
or to join a health club, or exercise regularly, or even eat your vegetables.


This type of congressional trickery is bad for our democracy and has implications far beyond the health-care debate. The Constitution's
Framers divided power between the federal government and states—just as they did among the three federal branches of government—
for a reason. They viewed these structural limitations on governmental power as the most reliable means of protecting individual liberty—
more important even than the Bill of Rights.

Yet if that imperative is insufficient to prompt reconsideration of the mandate (and the approach to reform it supports), then the inevitable
judicial challenges should. Since the 1930s, the Supreme Court has been reluctant to invalidate "regulatory" taxes. However, a tax that is so clearly
a penalty for failing to comply with requirements otherwise beyond Congress's constitutional power will present the question whether there are any limits
on Congress's power to regulate individual Americans. The Supreme Court has never accepted such a proposition, and it is unlikely to accept it now,
even in an area as important as health care.


[i]Messrs. Rivkin and Casey, Washington D.C.-based attorneys, served in the Department of Justice during the Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush administrations.


----------------------------

...and this is why artificial deadlines and vague slogans in speechs are not enough...
this stuff is extremely important, detailed, hard and encroaching into the lives of individuals.
BTW: this ain't racism...it's common sense, IMO.


Indianhead
According to Bloomberg News tonight, there are 564 amendments filed
concerning the Baucus Health Care Reform Bill in the U.S. Senate. Wow.
jeffmoskin
QUOTE(Indianhead @ Sep 20 2009, 07:04 AM) *
[b]Mandatory Insurance Is Unconstitutional

Really?

How about Social Security Insurance, since 1937?

Medicare insurance since 1965?

Neither have been challenged, much less struck down, yet they are paid out of every paycheck.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2010 Invision Power Services, Inc.