QUOTE
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0805/27/lkl.01.html
CNN LARRY KING LIVE
Aired May 27, 2008 - 21:00 ET
Dale Cochran's First Interview Since the Death of Her Husband Johnnie; Is There a Link Between Cell Phones and Cancer?
...Experts on both sides of the issue are here and it's next. And it's only on LARRY KING LIVE.
It is a great pleasure to welcome to LARRY KING LIVE Dale Cochran, the widow of the famed attorney, the late Johnnie Cochran.
Also with us is Dr. Keith Black, one of the major figures in neurosurgery in this country. He's chairman of the Department of Neurosurgery, director of the Maxine Dunitz Neurosurgical Institute at Cedars-Sinai. And he was Johnnie Cochran's doctor.
Later, we'll get into a major discussion about cell phones and we'll include our own Dr. Sanjay Gupta...
CNN LARRY KING LIVE
Aired May 27, 2008 - 21:00 ET
Dale Cochran's First Interview Since the Death of Her Husband Johnnie; Is There a Link Between Cell Phones and Cancer?
...Experts on both sides of the issue are here and it's next. And it's only on LARRY KING LIVE.
It is a great pleasure to welcome to LARRY KING LIVE Dale Cochran, the widow of the famed attorney, the late Johnnie Cochran.
Also with us is Dr. Keith Black, one of the major figures in neurosurgery in this country. He's chairman of the Department of Neurosurgery, director of the Maxine Dunitz Neurosurgical Institute at Cedars-Sinai. And he was Johnnie Cochran's doctor.
Later, we'll get into a major discussion about cell phones and we'll include our own Dr. Sanjay Gupta...
Here University of Pittsburgh Cancer Institute to warn about cell phone health risks,
QUOTE
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0807/29/lkl.01.html
CNN LARRY KING LIVE
Aired July 29, 2008 - 21:00 ET
Is There a Link Between Cell Phone Use and Cancer?
And we'll be right back. And when we come back - hey, you got a call phone? You want to know this. Is it putting your children and you at risk for cancer? That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Does cell phone use increase your risk of cancer? It's a hot-button debate. The latest development, a memo from Dr. Ronald Herberman, director of the University of Pittsburgh Cancer Institute, offering precautionary advice on cell phone use to his faculty and his staff.
We welcome to LARRY KING LIVE. Dr. Devra Davis, director of the Center for Environmental Oncology at the University of Pittsburgh's Cancer Institute. Dr. Keith Black, chairman of the Department of Neurosurgery and director of the Maxine Dunitz Neurosurgical Institute in Cedars-Sinai in L.A. And also from L.A., Dr. Paul Song, radiation oncologist.
Dr. Davis has this new book, "The Secret History of the War on Cancer." Dr. Davis, what do you maybe of Dr. Herberman's memo? It should frighten everybody.
DR. DEVRA DAVIS, DIRECTOR, CENTER ENVIRONMENTAL ONCOLOGY: Well, we don't want to frighten people. We want people to take precautions. That's the reason he wrote the memo.
KING: Precautions being?
DAVIS: Well, to use an earpiece and to not keep your phone on, on your body all the time and to make sure that children are not using cell phones.
KING: At all?
DAVIS: No, no, young children particularly need to be careful and particularly toddlers, who now have cell phones that they use to play with. This is a really bad idea.
KING: What led Dr. Herberman to this finding?
DAVIS: Well, he looked at the literature and was aware of the growing concerns that we do not have enough information, nor enough time to be sure that cell phones are safe. There's reason for concern that they may be harmful, so we need to take precautions rather than waiting to experiment on the rest of us.
KING: Dr. Black, meaning, if they are harmful, we don't know why they are harmful, right?
DR. KEITH BLACK, CHAIRMAN, DEPT. OF NEUROSURGERY, CEDARS-SINAI MEDICAL CENTER: We know that microwave radiation can damage cells, and there's been some experimental evidence to suggest there are harmful effects. As Dr. Davis said, at this point, they're looking at the relationship between cell phone use and brain cancer. We have conflicting studies. Some studies, which are not absolutely perfect, showed no correlation. We also have some studies that tend to suggest a correlation.
One of the recent studies from Sweden show that if you use cell phones an hour a day for ten years, your risk may be increased as much as two-fold. The real concern is analogous to this: we've only been using cell phones for a short period. Most of the studies are for a short period of time. So if you have a 14-year-old who smokes cigarettes, we don't expect that 14-year-old to develop lung cancer at 24. We expect them to develop lung cancer at 54. If you have an eight-year-old using a cell phone, we don't expect them to do you feel lung cancer at 18, but at 48.
What happens after 20, 30, 40 years of use, that's the concern and we don't have the answer to that.
KING: If we have -- we have millions of cell phones in use now, right?
BLACK: That's correct.
KING: Has there been an increase in brain cancer?
BLACK: Well, again we know that if you look at studies, there have been various explanations to try to account for the increase in brain cancer. KING: Has there been an increase?
BLACK: There's been an increase in reported incidents. That may be related to better MRI scans or more frequent use of CT scans, but we don't expect at this early stage -- we've only been using cell phones with a high frequency for less than ten years, for about 10, 20 years. So again, you know, the concern, and based on the biology we know with the development of cancer -- the real concern is what happens after 20, 30, 40 years. And that is what we need to be concerned about, and that's why I think the University of Pittsburgh advised us to be cautious.
KING: The evidence, Dr. Song, having done so many interviews over the years, against tobacco, was statistical. It wasn't -- they didn't know why tobacco caused lung cancer, only that it caused cancer. You use tobacco, you've got an increased chance. Is that going to be the evidence here, statistical?
DR. PAUL SONG, RADIATION ONCOLOGIST: It could be, but it may be another 10, 20 years before we have the necessary statistics to make those recommendations. What we do know from radiation studies, whether it was people exposed in Hiroshima, to kids treated for cancer with radiation, is that sometimes it took 15, 20 years before people developed cancer, secondary that we could attribute to the radiation.
When we talk about cell phones, we're looking at radio frequency, which is on the big spectrum of electromagnetic radiation. You've got radio waves on one side, which is responsible for TV, radio and cell phones, and then you've gamma waves on the other side. What we know about the gamma waves or the more intense radiation is that's a ionizing radiation that causes DNA damage, that mutates cells that develop into cancer.
For the radio waves, there has been no clear evidence to suggest that it's a DNA damage. So if there is some damage, it has to be some other mechanism that has really yet to be reported.
KING: So what would you say to people who use cell phones?
SONG: I think the most important thing is that when we look at any type of radiation exposure, whether or not it's radio waves or gamma waves, is that the duration of your exposure. So clearly if you're on the cell phone for a long period of time -- I think we all have been in situations where our ear gets warm -- that clearly means maybe we're on a little too long.
KING: So do what?
SONG: I think that an earpiece may help to greatly reduce the exposure for radio frequency radiation, but people need to keep in mind if the phone is on the hip pocket, their whole body is still being exposed to the same amount of radiation than if it was up to their ear.
KING: So it's what choice of cancer do I want? Hip or brain? SONG: Surprisingly, the concern about radio frequency exposure is not so much for the brain or the hip, but really the testes or the eyes. Those are the areas that are most sensitive to radio frequency, because they get hot and they don't have the blood vessels to cool off.
KING: Would you say, Dr. Davis, always use an earpiece. Don't put a cell phone up to your ear?
DAVIS: If at all possible, use an earpiece. It does reduce substantially the signal, because the further away you can have the phone from your body, the better off it is from you.
KING: What about 8 and 9 -- 10-year-olds all over elementary school running around with them now?
DAVIS: Right now, unfortunately, of the 28 million children in this country between the ages of eight and 12, about half of them are using a cell phone. Sometimes it's their mom and dad's, but using it frequently. We're all very concerned about that. We know the cell signal gets deeply into the brain of a child.
KING: Are you concerned, Dr. Black, about the child?
BLACK: Yes, I am. We know that young brains may be more susceptible, and they have a longer exposure. And some of the studies have also suggested that the longer the exposure, the higher the risk. I think the key thing here, Larry, is that we would assume as a society that cell phones are safe, that the government wouldn't allow us to use this device unless it was safe. The reality is it's a source of microwave radiation. There have been studies to suggest there may be an associated risk of brain cancer and also a benign tumor of the ear, and there have been some studies to suggest eye tumors as well.
The important thing for your listeners to hear is that they need to be cautious, because we may not have the answer to this for another 10 years.
KING: Another distinguished doctor will be joining us, and we'll take some calls too. And some may come from cell phones. Stay there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I try to use the speaker, you know. I mean, you hear stuff on TV. It's like why not just use the speaker?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I actually text message a little more, because I hear about that all the time, and you think maybe 50 years down the road or something, it may affect you negatively. So, you see people using that all the time and you think, maybe we'll all be affected like DDT was back in the '40s or something like that. So it definitely is a concern right now for me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Do you think there's a link between cell phones and brain cancer? That's our quick vote tonight. Go to CNN.com/larryking right now, cast your vote.
Joining our panel from New York is Dr. Ted Schwartz, director of brain tumor surgery at New York's Presbyterian Hospital/Weill Cornell.
Where do you stand on this issue, Ted?
DR. TED SCHWARTZ, N.Y. PRESBYTERIAN/WEILL CORNELL HOSPITAL: Larry, thanks for asking. First of all, I want to say I certainly understand the public's fear of this issue. And I think that want to do everything I can for myself, for my patients, for my family to avoid any risk that would cause brain tumors. But I think there are a few things we agree upon here. The first is that the majority of brain tumors are not caused by cell phones. Brain tumors have been around long before cell phones were in existence. There's not an increased incidence that is significance, and it's probably an increased incidence of our ability to pick them up and our ability to publicize them.
The other thing I think we agree upon is that the currently available literature is at best inconclusive about whether there's a link between cell phone use and brain tumors. There are just as many studies showing that cell phones decrease the risk of brain tumors as increase the risk. And we're not here talking about the facts that cell phones may be protective.
KING: What do you make of the report out of the University of Pittsburgh.
SCHWARTZ: The Pittsburgh report is no new data. They're just looking at the data that currently exists. One of the problems with these long term studies, these ten-year studies is that they're based on the use of analog cell phones. Nobody uses analog cell phones any more. They have a higher power. They emit more power. We use digital phones now and there's absolutely no data on digital phones, their long-term use and the incidence of cancer.
The question is, is it reasonable to base a public health warning on a lack of evidence? Basically, we have no good evidence one way or the other. And my answer is no.
KING: Let's take a call. St. Louis, Missouri, hello.
CALLER: Good evening, Larry, and good evening to your panel.
I actually have two quick questions. If there's any study showing that using cordless phones are harmful? And living by a cell phone tower, if that's harmful?
KING: Two good questions -- Dr. Black?
BLACK: Cordless phones emit a much lower frequency of radiation, and they're much safer than cell phones. And I have no real concerns, Larry, with --
DAVIS: Well, there has been a study from Sweden where they have used cordless phones longer, and unfortunately what they found was that there was a doubled risk of a brain tumor with long use of cordless phones. And many cordless phones actually have as much radiation as a cell phone, if not more.
KING: Cell phone tower?
SONG: That's something that's still under debate. There's a lots of investigation of whether or not there might be an increase of lymphoma with people living next to cell phone towers, but still no conclusive data exists.
DAVIS: I guess that's the issue, if I may say. The data that we're talking about here are human, sick people. That's the challenge. That's why the doctor wrote the memo. That's what we do as Pittsburgh. We're doing one of the best things in the world, in terms of treating people with cancer. All the people here work on that. Yet, if we think there's a way to avoid future cancers by reducing the risk of something that may cause a lot of problems in the future, we ought to try to do that.
KING: Dr. Schwartz, how do you use your cell phone?
SCHWARTZ: I put it right up to my ear and don't use an earpiece unless I'm driving. I think that's the general recommendation.
KING: You put it up to your ear?
SCHWARTZ: I have it right here, but I wouldn't take a call. I think it is safe to use, again, based on the current available data. We don't know whether watching a television has an increased risk of causing cancer. We don't know whether using a hair dryer increases your risk of cancer. IN fact, there are some studies showing there might be a link. But they're not well-performed studies, so we don't go around issuing public health warnings about it, based on the fact that we don't really and do have enough evidence. So I think it's a little premature to issue those kinds of warnings.
KING: Dr. Davis stays with us.
Dr. Schwartz and Dr. Song, Dr. Black, always good seeing you. Thank you very much.
You did four brain surgeries today, right?
BLACK: Correct.
KING: LARRY KING LIVE contacted cell phone companies to take part in our program today. We contacted T-Mobile, AT&T, Motorola, LG Electronics, Qualcom, Nokia, Verizon, Samsung and Sprint. All declined our invitation. We contacted Erickson too, got no response. Many companies we spoke with us referred us to the association that represents the wireless industry. They too declined our invitation, but they did give us this statement, quote, "This is an issue that should be guided by science. The overwhelming majority of studies that have been published in scientific journals around the world show that wireless phones do not pose a health risk. Furthermore, this is the public position of leading health organizations, such as the United States Food and Drug Administration, the American Cancer Society and the World Health Organization. Public statements and declarations not guided by published scientific research can have the effect of misinforming the general public. As technology continues to evolve, the industry supports continued research. But we want to stress the fact that this a consensus among leading health organizations concerning published scientific research, and they show no reason for concern."
And we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We now welcome, in Atlanta, Dr. Otis Brawley, chief medical officer of the America Cancer Society, a practicing oncologist, and our old friend Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN's chief medical correspondent, a practicing neurosurgeon himself.
Dr. Brawley, what do you make of the report out of Pittsburgh?
DR. OTIS W. BRAWLEY, CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER, AMERICAN CANCER SOCIETY: I understand exactly why people are concerned, and I share their concern. but I think we need to tell people what's known, what's not known and what's believed, and not confuse what's believed with what's known. First off, the number of brain tumors in Sweden, the first country to get cell phones has actually gone down over the last 25 years. The number of brain cancers in the United States has actually gone down. They've not been flat or gone up with cell phones.
Secondly, this is the kind of radiation that is not ionizing radiation. This is not microwave radiation. And a lot of people are confused by that. I think we also need to know there are 19 studies that have been done, three that suggest that cell phones might be associated with brain tumors, 16 that actually exonerate cell phones as a cause of brain tumors.
So we have to take all of these things into concern. I'm afraid we're pulling the fire alarm, scaring people unnecessarily, and actually diverting their attention from things that they should be doing. And when we do need to pull the fire alarm for a public health emergency, we won't have the credibility for them to listen to us.
KING: Dr. Gupta?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, I agree with what Dr. Brawley has said. I think part of the issue here is trying to prove a negative, trying to say that these are not dangerous and they are safe as well. You know, part of the issue is -- and I think Dr. Brawley's obviously looked at a lot of the studies -- one of the ones that a lot of people quote -- and I read these studies exhaustively -- defines, for example, a regular cell phone user as someone who uses a cell phone once a day for six months.
Now, that obviously is not how most people use their cell phones. It's not to say if you use it more than that, you're definitely at risk. but I don't know that the studies have been good enough and they certainly, I don't think, have been long term enough.
So I think right not to pull the fire alarm, but are we missing something here? Should we be a little more careful?
BRAWLEY: I would agree with you that we don't know what the 20 or 30-year experience is going to be with cell phones. I would also agree with you that of the 19 studies that have been done, each one of them, actually, I could criticize. Indeed, in my 20 year career, I think I can criticize virtually every study I've ever read. So you're right. There's a great deal of unknown here.
If an individual is concerned about this, we really do need to tell them the simple answer is use an ear piece. I agree with the recommendation that kids with developing brains ought not be using cell phones a lot. I have no problem with a child using it occasionally. But I am worried about people who are on it or four, five hours every day.
KING: That's fair enough. We have an e-mail question from Sage, Santa Barbara: "If the WHO Interphone study confirms a link between cell phone use and an increased risk of brain cancer, what should the public health community's response be" -- Dr. Brawley?
BRAWLEY: I think we're going to have to look at the Interphone Study very carefully. For those listeners who don't know, the Interphone Study is run by the World Health Organization of the United Nations. It's actually been completed for about two and a half years and the people who actually ran the study have yet to publish it. There's a lot of discussions going on amongst those scientists as to exactly what the data show. And it would be really nice if it were published, I must tell you.
KING: Thanks, Dr. Brawley, great seeing you. We hope to have you back real soon.
BRAWLEY: Thank you.
KING: Dr. Gupta remains. He will join our panel members. We'll have some e-mails coming in right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back with Deborah Davis, Dr. Ted Schwartz, Dr. Paul Song and, in New York, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
Dr. Gupta wanted to add something about cell phones and children -- Doctor?
GUPTA: One thing that Dr. Brawley brought up is this idea that electromagnetic radiation that can be of concern. Larry, I know you like pictures. Sometimes they can be worth a thousand words. Take a look here. This was from a study looking at the amount of penetration of this electromagnetic radiation in a five-year-old over. Certainly see it's more. This is the brain and this is the amount of radiation penetrating into the brain, compared to a 10-year-old and compared to an adult.
Again, this type of radiation is not ionizing radiation, which everybody agrees, I think, is bad for you. But the question is what is this really doing to a young child's brain? A lot of these studies being done on adults. Now you have children using these phones and they're going to use them their entire lives. They're going to have 60, 70 years usage. What is that effect of penetration of radiation on the brain?
KING: And Dr. Davis, during the break, you said you agreed with the industry?
DAVIS: Of course I agree with the industry. That's the reason why we issued the warning. The reality is we do not have studies yet and, with all due respect, we can't vote on whether or not cell phones cause cancer with polls. What we need is independent research. In fact, Dr. Herberman and the doctors here, Dr. Song and I, Dr. Bondy from MD Anderson, we join now to call for the cell phone industries to make their data publicly available for independent evaluation by scientists. The cell phone industry is correct, that is the only way we'll answer the question.
The old phones were bad, but let's see whether the new ones have any risk at all, given the fact that so many of us are using them now.
KING: Dr. Schwartz, we have an e-mail from Danny in San Clemente (ph): "I hear all these stories that cell phones may cause cancer and they scare me, but I'm a teenager, so I'm on my phone all the time. I like to talk to people through the speaker phone on my cell phone. Is that dangerous?"
SCHWARTZ: Well, if he holds the phone far or close, again, currently available data doesn't show it will really make a difference, because the data is suspect. There are no good studies. We need better studies. I agree with most of the people here, that we should focus on good randomized studies, where we follow patients for a long period of time, or people who use phones and see if there's an increase incidence of brain tumors over time. Then we'll know the answer and we can issue appropriate statements.
KING: Dr. Song, what does your gut tell you?
SONG: I think that it's still way too soon to tell, because any radiation induced malignancy takes about 15 to 20 years for us to see. With regard to the last question, I just wanted to add that the viewer, if you hold your phone half the distance from where it is right now, you will actually reduce your radiation exposure by a quarter. So it's probably a good idea to take more advantage of the speaker use if you are concerned about it.
Again, there isn't any clear evidence that doing that is going to reduce your cancer risk because we don't know that it does cause cancer. If you are concerned about any radiation frequency exposure, that might be a safe thing to do.
KING: We're down to about a minute. Dr. Gupta, an e-mail from Jack in Davy, Florida: "if future research shows that cell phones can cause cancer, what are we supposed to do? Cell phones are a very big part of today's world. Terminating cell phone use would be extremely disruptive, assuming it was even possible."
GUPTA: I don't think it is possible and I don't think that you need to terminate usage. The earpiece sounds simple, but it can be very effective. The idea is that the cell phone may be giving off -- may be a radiation source, simply moving it away from your brain. Use a wired earpiece, don't carry it in your pocket. There are simple things that you can do and still have access to your cell phone.
KING: Dr. Schwartz, do you think we'll find out the answer?
SCHWARTZ: I think if we do the right study, we'll find out the answer. But if we don't do the right study, we'll never know.
KING: Do you we'll find out, Deborah?
DAVIS: I think we shouldn't wait 20 years to experiment on our children. That's why we need to take precautions. We will eventually solve this scientifically, but I'm concerned about what we do in the meantime. And that's why we've issued this precautionary statement.
KING: We are out of time. I thank you all, Deborah Davis, Dr. Ted Schwartz, Dr. Paul Song, and Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
CNN LARRY KING LIVE
Aired July 29, 2008 - 21:00 ET
Is There a Link Between Cell Phone Use and Cancer?
And we'll be right back. And when we come back - hey, you got a call phone? You want to know this. Is it putting your children and you at risk for cancer? That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Does cell phone use increase your risk of cancer? It's a hot-button debate. The latest development, a memo from Dr. Ronald Herberman, director of the University of Pittsburgh Cancer Institute, offering precautionary advice on cell phone use to his faculty and his staff.
We welcome to LARRY KING LIVE. Dr. Devra Davis, director of the Center for Environmental Oncology at the University of Pittsburgh's Cancer Institute. Dr. Keith Black, chairman of the Department of Neurosurgery and director of the Maxine Dunitz Neurosurgical Institute in Cedars-Sinai in L.A. And also from L.A., Dr. Paul Song, radiation oncologist.
Dr. Davis has this new book, "The Secret History of the War on Cancer." Dr. Davis, what do you maybe of Dr. Herberman's memo? It should frighten everybody.
DR. DEVRA DAVIS, DIRECTOR, CENTER ENVIRONMENTAL ONCOLOGY: Well, we don't want to frighten people. We want people to take precautions. That's the reason he wrote the memo.
KING: Precautions being?
DAVIS: Well, to use an earpiece and to not keep your phone on, on your body all the time and to make sure that children are not using cell phones.
KING: At all?
DAVIS: No, no, young children particularly need to be careful and particularly toddlers, who now have cell phones that they use to play with. This is a really bad idea.
KING: What led Dr. Herberman to this finding?
DAVIS: Well, he looked at the literature and was aware of the growing concerns that we do not have enough information, nor enough time to be sure that cell phones are safe. There's reason for concern that they may be harmful, so we need to take precautions rather than waiting to experiment on the rest of us.
KING: Dr. Black, meaning, if they are harmful, we don't know why they are harmful, right?
DR. KEITH BLACK, CHAIRMAN, DEPT. OF NEUROSURGERY, CEDARS-SINAI MEDICAL CENTER: We know that microwave radiation can damage cells, and there's been some experimental evidence to suggest there are harmful effects. As Dr. Davis said, at this point, they're looking at the relationship between cell phone use and brain cancer. We have conflicting studies. Some studies, which are not absolutely perfect, showed no correlation. We also have some studies that tend to suggest a correlation.
One of the recent studies from Sweden show that if you use cell phones an hour a day for ten years, your risk may be increased as much as two-fold. The real concern is analogous to this: we've only been using cell phones for a short period. Most of the studies are for a short period of time. So if you have a 14-year-old who smokes cigarettes, we don't expect that 14-year-old to develop lung cancer at 24. We expect them to develop lung cancer at 54. If you have an eight-year-old using a cell phone, we don't expect them to do you feel lung cancer at 18, but at 48.
What happens after 20, 30, 40 years of use, that's the concern and we don't have the answer to that.
KING: If we have -- we have millions of cell phones in use now, right?
BLACK: That's correct.
KING: Has there been an increase in brain cancer?
BLACK: Well, again we know that if you look at studies, there have been various explanations to try to account for the increase in brain cancer. KING: Has there been an increase?
BLACK: There's been an increase in reported incidents. That may be related to better MRI scans or more frequent use of CT scans, but we don't expect at this early stage -- we've only been using cell phones with a high frequency for less than ten years, for about 10, 20 years. So again, you know, the concern, and based on the biology we know with the development of cancer -- the real concern is what happens after 20, 30, 40 years. And that is what we need to be concerned about, and that's why I think the University of Pittsburgh advised us to be cautious.
KING: The evidence, Dr. Song, having done so many interviews over the years, against tobacco, was statistical. It wasn't -- they didn't know why tobacco caused lung cancer, only that it caused cancer. You use tobacco, you've got an increased chance. Is that going to be the evidence here, statistical?
DR. PAUL SONG, RADIATION ONCOLOGIST: It could be, but it may be another 10, 20 years before we have the necessary statistics to make those recommendations. What we do know from radiation studies, whether it was people exposed in Hiroshima, to kids treated for cancer with radiation, is that sometimes it took 15, 20 years before people developed cancer, secondary that we could attribute to the radiation.
When we talk about cell phones, we're looking at radio frequency, which is on the big spectrum of electromagnetic radiation. You've got radio waves on one side, which is responsible for TV, radio and cell phones, and then you've gamma waves on the other side. What we know about the gamma waves or the more intense radiation is that's a ionizing radiation that causes DNA damage, that mutates cells that develop into cancer.
For the radio waves, there has been no clear evidence to suggest that it's a DNA damage. So if there is some damage, it has to be some other mechanism that has really yet to be reported.
KING: So what would you say to people who use cell phones?
SONG: I think the most important thing is that when we look at any type of radiation exposure, whether or not it's radio waves or gamma waves, is that the duration of your exposure. So clearly if you're on the cell phone for a long period of time -- I think we all have been in situations where our ear gets warm -- that clearly means maybe we're on a little too long.
KING: So do what?
SONG: I think that an earpiece may help to greatly reduce the exposure for radio frequency radiation, but people need to keep in mind if the phone is on the hip pocket, their whole body is still being exposed to the same amount of radiation than if it was up to their ear.
KING: So it's what choice of cancer do I want? Hip or brain? SONG: Surprisingly, the concern about radio frequency exposure is not so much for the brain or the hip, but really the testes or the eyes. Those are the areas that are most sensitive to radio frequency, because they get hot and they don't have the blood vessels to cool off.
KING: Would you say, Dr. Davis, always use an earpiece. Don't put a cell phone up to your ear?
DAVIS: If at all possible, use an earpiece. It does reduce substantially the signal, because the further away you can have the phone from your body, the better off it is from you.
KING: What about 8 and 9 -- 10-year-olds all over elementary school running around with them now?
DAVIS: Right now, unfortunately, of the 28 million children in this country between the ages of eight and 12, about half of them are using a cell phone. Sometimes it's their mom and dad's, but using it frequently. We're all very concerned about that. We know the cell signal gets deeply into the brain of a child.
KING: Are you concerned, Dr. Black, about the child?
BLACK: Yes, I am. We know that young brains may be more susceptible, and they have a longer exposure. And some of the studies have also suggested that the longer the exposure, the higher the risk. I think the key thing here, Larry, is that we would assume as a society that cell phones are safe, that the government wouldn't allow us to use this device unless it was safe. The reality is it's a source of microwave radiation. There have been studies to suggest there may be an associated risk of brain cancer and also a benign tumor of the ear, and there have been some studies to suggest eye tumors as well.
The important thing for your listeners to hear is that they need to be cautious, because we may not have the answer to this for another 10 years.
KING: Another distinguished doctor will be joining us, and we'll take some calls too. And some may come from cell phones. Stay there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I try to use the speaker, you know. I mean, you hear stuff on TV. It's like why not just use the speaker?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I actually text message a little more, because I hear about that all the time, and you think maybe 50 years down the road or something, it may affect you negatively. So, you see people using that all the time and you think, maybe we'll all be affected like DDT was back in the '40s or something like that. So it definitely is a concern right now for me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Do you think there's a link between cell phones and brain cancer? That's our quick vote tonight. Go to CNN.com/larryking right now, cast your vote.
Joining our panel from New York is Dr. Ted Schwartz, director of brain tumor surgery at New York's Presbyterian Hospital/Weill Cornell.
Where do you stand on this issue, Ted?
DR. TED SCHWARTZ, N.Y. PRESBYTERIAN/WEILL CORNELL HOSPITAL: Larry, thanks for asking. First of all, I want to say I certainly understand the public's fear of this issue. And I think that want to do everything I can for myself, for my patients, for my family to avoid any risk that would cause brain tumors. But I think there are a few things we agree upon here. The first is that the majority of brain tumors are not caused by cell phones. Brain tumors have been around long before cell phones were in existence. There's not an increased incidence that is significance, and it's probably an increased incidence of our ability to pick them up and our ability to publicize them.
The other thing I think we agree upon is that the currently available literature is at best inconclusive about whether there's a link between cell phone use and brain tumors. There are just as many studies showing that cell phones decrease the risk of brain tumors as increase the risk. And we're not here talking about the facts that cell phones may be protective.
KING: What do you make of the report out of the University of Pittsburgh.
SCHWARTZ: The Pittsburgh report is no new data. They're just looking at the data that currently exists. One of the problems with these long term studies, these ten-year studies is that they're based on the use of analog cell phones. Nobody uses analog cell phones any more. They have a higher power. They emit more power. We use digital phones now and there's absolutely no data on digital phones, their long-term use and the incidence of cancer.
The question is, is it reasonable to base a public health warning on a lack of evidence? Basically, we have no good evidence one way or the other. And my answer is no.
KING: Let's take a call. St. Louis, Missouri, hello.
CALLER: Good evening, Larry, and good evening to your panel.
I actually have two quick questions. If there's any study showing that using cordless phones are harmful? And living by a cell phone tower, if that's harmful?
KING: Two good questions -- Dr. Black?
BLACK: Cordless phones emit a much lower frequency of radiation, and they're much safer than cell phones. And I have no real concerns, Larry, with --
DAVIS: Well, there has been a study from Sweden where they have used cordless phones longer, and unfortunately what they found was that there was a doubled risk of a brain tumor with long use of cordless phones. And many cordless phones actually have as much radiation as a cell phone, if not more.
KING: Cell phone tower?
SONG: That's something that's still under debate. There's a lots of investigation of whether or not there might be an increase of lymphoma with people living next to cell phone towers, but still no conclusive data exists.
DAVIS: I guess that's the issue, if I may say. The data that we're talking about here are human, sick people. That's the challenge. That's why the doctor wrote the memo. That's what we do as Pittsburgh. We're doing one of the best things in the world, in terms of treating people with cancer. All the people here work on that. Yet, if we think there's a way to avoid future cancers by reducing the risk of something that may cause a lot of problems in the future, we ought to try to do that.
KING: Dr. Schwartz, how do you use your cell phone?
SCHWARTZ: I put it right up to my ear and don't use an earpiece unless I'm driving. I think that's the general recommendation.
KING: You put it up to your ear?
SCHWARTZ: I have it right here, but I wouldn't take a call. I think it is safe to use, again, based on the current available data. We don't know whether watching a television has an increased risk of causing cancer. We don't know whether using a hair dryer increases your risk of cancer. IN fact, there are some studies showing there might be a link. But they're not well-performed studies, so we don't go around issuing public health warnings about it, based on the fact that we don't really and do have enough evidence. So I think it's a little premature to issue those kinds of warnings.
KING: Dr. Davis stays with us.
Dr. Schwartz and Dr. Song, Dr. Black, always good seeing you. Thank you very much.
You did four brain surgeries today, right?
BLACK: Correct.
KING: LARRY KING LIVE contacted cell phone companies to take part in our program today. We contacted T-Mobile, AT&T, Motorola, LG Electronics, Qualcom, Nokia, Verizon, Samsung and Sprint. All declined our invitation. We contacted Erickson too, got no response. Many companies we spoke with us referred us to the association that represents the wireless industry. They too declined our invitation, but they did give us this statement, quote, "This is an issue that should be guided by science. The overwhelming majority of studies that have been published in scientific journals around the world show that wireless phones do not pose a health risk. Furthermore, this is the public position of leading health organizations, such as the United States Food and Drug Administration, the American Cancer Society and the World Health Organization. Public statements and declarations not guided by published scientific research can have the effect of misinforming the general public. As technology continues to evolve, the industry supports continued research. But we want to stress the fact that this a consensus among leading health organizations concerning published scientific research, and they show no reason for concern."
And we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We now welcome, in Atlanta, Dr. Otis Brawley, chief medical officer of the America Cancer Society, a practicing oncologist, and our old friend Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN's chief medical correspondent, a practicing neurosurgeon himself.
Dr. Brawley, what do you make of the report out of Pittsburgh?
DR. OTIS W. BRAWLEY, CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER, AMERICAN CANCER SOCIETY: I understand exactly why people are concerned, and I share their concern. but I think we need to tell people what's known, what's not known and what's believed, and not confuse what's believed with what's known. First off, the number of brain tumors in Sweden, the first country to get cell phones has actually gone down over the last 25 years. The number of brain cancers in the United States has actually gone down. They've not been flat or gone up with cell phones.
Secondly, this is the kind of radiation that is not ionizing radiation. This is not microwave radiation. And a lot of people are confused by that. I think we also need to know there are 19 studies that have been done, three that suggest that cell phones might be associated with brain tumors, 16 that actually exonerate cell phones as a cause of brain tumors.
So we have to take all of these things into concern. I'm afraid we're pulling the fire alarm, scaring people unnecessarily, and actually diverting their attention from things that they should be doing. And when we do need to pull the fire alarm for a public health emergency, we won't have the credibility for them to listen to us.
KING: Dr. Gupta?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, I agree with what Dr. Brawley has said. I think part of the issue here is trying to prove a negative, trying to say that these are not dangerous and they are safe as well. You know, part of the issue is -- and I think Dr. Brawley's obviously looked at a lot of the studies -- one of the ones that a lot of people quote -- and I read these studies exhaustively -- defines, for example, a regular cell phone user as someone who uses a cell phone once a day for six months.
Now, that obviously is not how most people use their cell phones. It's not to say if you use it more than that, you're definitely at risk. but I don't know that the studies have been good enough and they certainly, I don't think, have been long term enough.
So I think right not to pull the fire alarm, but are we missing something here? Should we be a little more careful?
BRAWLEY: I would agree with you that we don't know what the 20 or 30-year experience is going to be with cell phones. I would also agree with you that of the 19 studies that have been done, each one of them, actually, I could criticize. Indeed, in my 20 year career, I think I can criticize virtually every study I've ever read. So you're right. There's a great deal of unknown here.
If an individual is concerned about this, we really do need to tell them the simple answer is use an ear piece. I agree with the recommendation that kids with developing brains ought not be using cell phones a lot. I have no problem with a child using it occasionally. But I am worried about people who are on it or four, five hours every day.
KING: That's fair enough. We have an e-mail question from Sage, Santa Barbara: "If the WHO Interphone study confirms a link between cell phone use and an increased risk of brain cancer, what should the public health community's response be" -- Dr. Brawley?
BRAWLEY: I think we're going to have to look at the Interphone Study very carefully. For those listeners who don't know, the Interphone Study is run by the World Health Organization of the United Nations. It's actually been completed for about two and a half years and the people who actually ran the study have yet to publish it. There's a lot of discussions going on amongst those scientists as to exactly what the data show. And it would be really nice if it were published, I must tell you.
KING: Thanks, Dr. Brawley, great seeing you. We hope to have you back real soon.
BRAWLEY: Thank you.
KING: Dr. Gupta remains. He will join our panel members. We'll have some e-mails coming in right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back with Deborah Davis, Dr. Ted Schwartz, Dr. Paul Song and, in New York, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
Dr. Gupta wanted to add something about cell phones and children -- Doctor?
GUPTA: One thing that Dr. Brawley brought up is this idea that electromagnetic radiation that can be of concern. Larry, I know you like pictures. Sometimes they can be worth a thousand words. Take a look here. This was from a study looking at the amount of penetration of this electromagnetic radiation in a five-year-old over. Certainly see it's more. This is the brain and this is the amount of radiation penetrating into the brain, compared to a 10-year-old and compared to an adult.
Again, this type of radiation is not ionizing radiation, which everybody agrees, I think, is bad for you. But the question is what is this really doing to a young child's brain? A lot of these studies being done on adults. Now you have children using these phones and they're going to use them their entire lives. They're going to have 60, 70 years usage. What is that effect of penetration of radiation on the brain?
KING: And Dr. Davis, during the break, you said you agreed with the industry?
DAVIS: Of course I agree with the industry. That's the reason why we issued the warning. The reality is we do not have studies yet and, with all due respect, we can't vote on whether or not cell phones cause cancer with polls. What we need is independent research. In fact, Dr. Herberman and the doctors here, Dr. Song and I, Dr. Bondy from MD Anderson, we join now to call for the cell phone industries to make their data publicly available for independent evaluation by scientists. The cell phone industry is correct, that is the only way we'll answer the question.
The old phones were bad, but let's see whether the new ones have any risk at all, given the fact that so many of us are using them now.
KING: Dr. Schwartz, we have an e-mail from Danny in San Clemente (ph): "I hear all these stories that cell phones may cause cancer and they scare me, but I'm a teenager, so I'm on my phone all the time. I like to talk to people through the speaker phone on my cell phone. Is that dangerous?"
SCHWARTZ: Well, if he holds the phone far or close, again, currently available data doesn't show it will really make a difference, because the data is suspect. There are no good studies. We need better studies. I agree with most of the people here, that we should focus on good randomized studies, where we follow patients for a long period of time, or people who use phones and see if there's an increase incidence of brain tumors over time. Then we'll know the answer and we can issue appropriate statements.
KING: Dr. Song, what does your gut tell you?
SONG: I think that it's still way too soon to tell, because any radiation induced malignancy takes about 15 to 20 years for us to see. With regard to the last question, I just wanted to add that the viewer, if you hold your phone half the distance from where it is right now, you will actually reduce your radiation exposure by a quarter. So it's probably a good idea to take more advantage of the speaker use if you are concerned about it.
Again, there isn't any clear evidence that doing that is going to reduce your cancer risk because we don't know that it does cause cancer. If you are concerned about any radiation frequency exposure, that might be a safe thing to do.
KING: We're down to about a minute. Dr. Gupta, an e-mail from Jack in Davy, Florida: "if future research shows that cell phones can cause cancer, what are we supposed to do? Cell phones are a very big part of today's world. Terminating cell phone use would be extremely disruptive, assuming it was even possible."
GUPTA: I don't think it is possible and I don't think that you need to terminate usage. The earpiece sounds simple, but it can be very effective. The idea is that the cell phone may be giving off -- may be a radiation source, simply moving it away from your brain. Use a wired earpiece, don't carry it in your pocket. There are simple things that you can do and still have access to your cell phone.
KING: Dr. Schwartz, do you think we'll find out the answer?
SCHWARTZ: I think if we do the right study, we'll find out the answer. But if we don't do the right study, we'll never know.
KING: Do you we'll find out, Deborah?
DAVIS: I think we shouldn't wait 20 years to experiment on our children. That's why we need to take precautions. We will eventually solve this scientifically, but I'm concerned about what we do in the meantime. And that's why we've issued this precautionary statement.
KING: We are out of time. I thank you all, Deborah Davis, Dr. Ted Schwartz, Dr. Paul Song, and Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
More here,
http://www.counterpunch.org/mckenna11212007.html
Book Review: The Secret History of the War on Cancer by Devra Davis
QUOTE
http://www.devradavis.com/about.php
About Dr. Davis
Designated a National Book Award Finalist for When Smoke Ran Like Water (2002, Basic Books), Devra Davis is Director of the world’s first Center for Environmental Oncology at the University of Pittsburgh Cancer Institute and Professor of Epidemiology at the University of Pittsburgh’s Graduate School of Public Health. Her recent book, The Secret History of the War on Cancer, was a top pick by Newsweek and is being used at major schools of public health, including Harvard, Emory, and Tulane University. The multidisciplinary Center for Environmental Oncology includes experts in medicine, basic research, engineering and public policy, who will develop cutting-edge studies to identify the causes of cancer and propose policies to reduce the risks of the disease.
Dr. Davis’s career has spanned all areas of academia, public policy, and scientific research. President Clinton appointed the Honorable Dr. Davis to the newly established Chemical Safety and Hazard Investigation Board, (1994-99) an independent executive branch agency that investigates, prevents, and mitigates chemical accidents. As the former Senior Advisor to the Assistant Secretary for Health in the Department of Health and Human Services, she has counseled leading officials in the United States, United Nations, World Health Organization, and World Bank.
She also served as a Lead Author of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change—the group awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 2007 with the Honorable Al Gore.
Dr. Davis holds a B.S. in physiological psychology and a M.A. in Sociology from the University of Pittsburgh. She completed a Ph.D. in science studies at the University of Chicago as a Danforth Foundation Graduate Fellow and a M.P.H. in epidemiology at the Johns Hopkins University as a Senior National Cancer Institute Post-Doctoral Fellow. She has also authored more than 190 publications in books and journals ranging from the Lancet and Journal of the American Medical Association to Scientific American and the New York Times.
Honored for her research and public policy work by various national and international groups, she is member of both the American Colleges of Toxicology and of Epidemiology. She was honored by the Betty Ford Comprehensive Cancer Center and the American Cancer Society with the Breast Cancer Awareness Award, commended by the Director of the National Cancer Institute for Outstanding Service, and has recently been appointed a Global Environmental advisor to Newsweek Magazine.
The recipient of a Women’s Leadership Exchange Compass Award, presented by OPEN: The Small Business Network from American Express, for breaking the paradigms of how women are perceived, Dr. Davis received the first Lisa Zhang Environmental Award from the United Nations in July 2008.
.
About Dr. Davis
Designated a National Book Award Finalist for When Smoke Ran Like Water (2002, Basic Books), Devra Davis is Director of the world’s first Center for Environmental Oncology at the University of Pittsburgh Cancer Institute and Professor of Epidemiology at the University of Pittsburgh’s Graduate School of Public Health. Her recent book, The Secret History of the War on Cancer, was a top pick by Newsweek and is being used at major schools of public health, including Harvard, Emory, and Tulane University. The multidisciplinary Center for Environmental Oncology includes experts in medicine, basic research, engineering and public policy, who will develop cutting-edge studies to identify the causes of cancer and propose policies to reduce the risks of the disease.
Dr. Davis’s career has spanned all areas of academia, public policy, and scientific research. President Clinton appointed the Honorable Dr. Davis to the newly established Chemical Safety and Hazard Investigation Board, (1994-99) an independent executive branch agency that investigates, prevents, and mitigates chemical accidents. As the former Senior Advisor to the Assistant Secretary for Health in the Department of Health and Human Services, she has counseled leading officials in the United States, United Nations, World Health Organization, and World Bank.
She also served as a Lead Author of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change—the group awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 2007 with the Honorable Al Gore.
Dr. Davis holds a B.S. in physiological psychology and a M.A. in Sociology from the University of Pittsburgh. She completed a Ph.D. in science studies at the University of Chicago as a Danforth Foundation Graduate Fellow and a M.P.H. in epidemiology at the Johns Hopkins University as a Senior National Cancer Institute Post-Doctoral Fellow. She has also authored more than 190 publications in books and journals ranging from the Lancet and Journal of the American Medical Association to Scientific American and the New York Times.
Honored for her research and public policy work by various national and international groups, she is member of both the American Colleges of Toxicology and of Epidemiology. She was honored by the Betty Ford Comprehensive Cancer Center and the American Cancer Society with the Breast Cancer Awareness Award, commended by the Director of the National Cancer Institute for Outstanding Service, and has recently been appointed a Global Environmental advisor to Newsweek Magazine.
The recipient of a Women’s Leadership Exchange Compass Award, presented by OPEN: The Small Business Network from American Express, for breaking the paradigms of how women are perceived, Dr. Davis received the first Lisa Zhang Environmental Award from the United Nations in July 2008.
.
http://www.livestrong.org/
