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rla
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Sep 15 2009, 02:27 PM) *
QUOTE(Magmak1 @ Sep 14 2009, 09:41 AM) *
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Sep 14 2009, 12:28 PM) *
Who is talking about revenge here?



US policy is guided by eliminating threats to our national security...



(CNN) -- A crowd of rescuers chanted "USA, USA" as President Bush thanked everyone working Friday at ground zero of the devastated World Trade Center that was hit by hijacked planes flown by terrorists.

As he stood on a pile of rubble in Manhattan, some people in the crowd shouted they couldn't hear him.

"I can hear you. The rest of the world hears you. And the people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon," Bush answered.

The crowd roared its approval."

September 14, 2001

The poll question associated with this story:
If Afghanistan does not hand over Osama bin Laden, should the U.S. bomb Kabul?
Yes
No

What you are playing here [or, more accurately, what US policy -- with which you agree -- is saying here] is a giant game of "how I got them to do it to me".

Attempts have been made to marginalize and run out of town the fellow who spoke -- on 9/12/01 -- about chickens coming home to roost.

It might be more accurate to re-write your statement this way:

"Threats to our national security might be eliminated by changing US foreign policy."


Do you really believe that we could do anything that would change Bin Laden's desire to kill Americans?

Are you really that naive?

We embarrassed Bin Laden -- he made a wacky proposal to to the Saudis to provide them with protection with his mujahadeen -- and the Saudis opted to go with us...as a result he has whipped up a religious rationale for condemning the US...

I have been a proponent of the principle that you articulate here...and have posted articles supporting this POV -- that indeed US foreign policy has resulted in the animus with which the US is held by many in the US...

This does not mean that the threats that exist can only be addressed by foreign policy changes....

What it means is that parallel with efforts to alter our foreign policy so that we provide a more balanced approach with regard to Israel and the Muslim world...we need to continue our effort against Bin Laden...

BUt then you know all this...don't you?


Taz, even the Native Americans could recognize Uncle Sam talking out of both sides of his mouth, which is what you
are doing, in my opinion...
Magmak1
Taz, who is this fellow bin Laden you speak of?








Or, perhaps more appropriately, where is he?
tazvil04
QUOTE(rla @ Sep 15 2009, 02:03 PM) *
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Sep 15 2009, 02:27 PM) *
QUOTE(Magmak1 @ Sep 14 2009, 09:41 AM) *
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Sep 14 2009, 12:28 PM) *
Who is talking about revenge here?



US policy is guided by eliminating threats to our national security...



(CNN) -- A crowd of rescuers chanted "USA, USA" as President Bush thanked everyone working Friday at ground zero of the devastated World Trade Center that was hit by hijacked planes flown by terrorists.

As he stood on a pile of rubble in Manhattan, some people in the crowd shouted they couldn't hear him.

"I can hear you. The rest of the world hears you. And the people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon," Bush answered.

The crowd roared its approval."

September 14, 2001

The poll question associated with this story:
If Afghanistan does not hand over Osama bin Laden, should the U.S. bomb Kabul?
Yes
No

What you are playing here [or, more accurately, what US policy -- with which you agree -- is saying here] is a giant game of "how I got them to do it to me".

Attempts have been made to marginalize and run out of town the fellow who spoke -- on 9/12/01 -- about chickens coming home to roost.

It might be more accurate to re-write your statement this way:

"Threats to our national security might be eliminated by changing US foreign policy."


Do you really believe that we could do anything that would change Bin Laden's desire to kill Americans?

Are you really that naive?

We embarrassed Bin Laden -- he made a wacky proposal to to the Saudis to provide them with protection with his mujahadeen -- and the Saudis opted to go with us...as a result he has whipped up a religious rationale for condemning the US...

I have been a proponent of the principle that you articulate here...and have posted articles supporting this POV -- that indeed US foreign policy has resulted in the animus with which the US is held by many in the US...

This does not mean that the threats that exist can only be addressed by foreign policy changes....

What it means is that parallel with efforts to alter our foreign policy so that we provide a more balanced approach with regard to Israel and the Muslim world...we need to continue our effort against Bin Laden...

BUt then you know all this...don't you?


Taz, even the Native Americans could recognize Uncle Sam talking out of both sides of his mouth, which is what you
are doing, in my opinion...


Yes, well, what I loved about the American Indians is that they were not afraid to specifically call Uncle Sam on it...

So instead of characterizing my words...generally -- why don't you point out specifically what you have a problem with...instead of beating around the bush...
Magmak1
Top US defense officials say that roughly 3,000 additional “combat enablers
will be deployed to Afghanistan in the coming days.
rla
QUOTE(Magmak1 @ Sep 16 2009, 01:46 PM) *
Top US defense officials say that roughly 3,000 additional “combat enablers
will be deployed to Afghanistan in the coming days.


Combat enablers assist our allies disable more of their cousins...
Magmak1
CIA expanding presence in Afghanistan
20 Sep 2009

The CIA is deploying teams of spies, analysts and paramilitary operatives to Afghanistan, part of a broad intelligence "surge" that will make its station there among the largest in the agency's history, U.S. officials say. When complete, the CIA's presence in the country is expected to rival the size of its massive stations in Iraq and Vietnam at the height of those wars. Precise numbers are classified, but one U.S. official said the agency already has nearly 700 employees in Afghanistan. The intelligence expansion goes beyond the CIA to involve every major spy service, officials said, including the National Security Agency, which intercepts calls and e-mails, as well as the Defense Intelligence Agency, which tracks military threats.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/wo...0,1183243.story via http://www.legitgov.org

See also:

U.S. Death Squads Roam The Globe
Commando Raid in Somalia is Latest in Covert Operations Across the Globe
By Bill Roggio

September 17, 2009
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article23521.htm
Magmak1
Omigod, we've sent more combat enablers and now we need more fodder for the combat.
Assemble your sons and daughters, your cousins, your cash...



McChrystal: More Forces or 'Mission Failure'

21 Sep 2009

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...9092002920.html

The top U.S. and NATO commander in Afghanistan warns in an urgent, confidential assessment of the war that he needs more forces within the next year and bluntly states that without them, the eight-year conflict "will likely result in failure," according to a copy of the 66-page document obtained by The Washington Post. His assessment was sent to Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates on Aug. 30 and is now being reviewed by President Obama and his national security team.
tazvil04
QUOTE(Magmak1 @ Sep 20 2009, 08:42 PM) *
CIA expanding presence in Afghanistan
20 Sep 2009

The CIA is deploying teams of spies, analysts and paramilitary operatives to Afghanistan, part of a broad intelligence "surge" that will make its station there among the largest in the agency's history, U.S. officials say. When complete, the CIA's presence in the country is expected to rival the size of its massive stations in Iraq and Vietnam at the height of those wars. Precise numbers are classified, but one U.S. official said the agency already has nearly 700 employees in Afghanistan. The intelligence expansion goes beyond the CIA to involve every major spy service, officials said, including the National Security Agency, which intercepts calls and e-mails, as well as the Defense Intelligence Agency, which tracks military threats.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/wo...0,1183243.story via http://www.legitgov.org

See also:

U.S. Death Squads Roam The Globe
Commando Raid in Somalia is Latest in Covert Operations Across the Globe
By Bill Roggio

September 17, 2009
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article23521.htm


No kidding...hmm...that might explain why our fortunes declined so much in Afghanistan when we went to was in Iraq -- because our CIA and intelligence operations were short-staffed in Afghanistan...

Surely you cannot be against the use and development of more and better intelligence by our soldiers...who knows --- it could even result in less Afghani citizens being killed which would be a positive result...
Magmak1
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Sep 21 2009, 03:47 PM) *
Surely you cannot be against the use and development of more and better intelligence by our soldiers...who knows --- it could even result in less Afghani citizens being killed which would be a positive result...


If you are referring to the CIA, then I guess one would have to ask whether this was the intelligence finders and analysts, or the black operatives and murder squads, or the ones tasked otherwise as combat enablers, weapons loaders, or what. The reference, perhaps correctible, is to the CIA, not the DIA, nor to any of its various subsets.

I would indeed like our soldiers to be intelligent, though it seems like being dumb has its benefits; here's a study that correlates death rates with IQ.

Being an emotionally intelligent soldier is a contradiction in terms, and we could talk about emotionally-enlightened soldiers, but Google didn't find any on January 31, 2008. Maybe the CIA is looking for some of them with satellite technology, though the optic resolution probably isn't sharp enough yet.

I am aware of theory written in the past; Leaders and Battles: The Art of Military Leadership, Lt. Col. William Wood, U.S. Army War College, Carlisle, PA was a treatise on the Six Dynamic Factors of Leadership in a Combative Setting. I'm familiar with Nideffer's work on the four types of attention. I've sampled the literature on situation awareness and tactical decision-making under stress, and I understand something of the interplay between 1) uncertainty, 2) time, 3) space, 4) force, 5) the psyche of the self, and 6) the psyche of the opponent, or the concept of dynamic situational awareness in four dimensions. I've dipped my toe into the waters of 4GW and 5GW, and have twice attended lectures by a performance enhancement instructor then employed at West Point. There was an effort in the past to teach soldiers about awareness disciplines by one of the nation's foremost performance psychologists, but I don't think the Pentagon liked what was being taught.

I would also want our soldiers to have wisdom.

"To recognize the flow of energy between ourselves and another person or event is the wisdom known in Japanese as zanshin. Mitsugi Saotome, in Aikido and the Harmony of Nature (Shambhala, Boston, 1993), tells us that zanshin is the ability to extend our energy outward, to blend flexibly and fluidly with the energies around us to create harmony. Ma-ai is the distance in time and space between two people, two events, or two energies. Fluid and flexible movement relies on the interval between an action and a response, between one person's energy and another's. When we are in touch with ma-ai, the larger pattern, we know when to move, when to pause, and when to blend. There are rhythms of ma-ai throughout our daily lives, and in the differences between society and solitude, between action and contemplation, in pacing and momentum, in knowing when enough is enough."

Otherwise, it all seems like business as usual.
rla
Wanted: Manuscripts that explicate War as a vehicle for international problem solving!
tazvil04
QUOTE(rla @ Sep 22 2009, 07:22 AM) *
Wanted: Manuscripts that explicate War as a vehicle for international problem solving!


I am heartened that there have been no fulfillments of your request...
rla
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Sep 23 2009, 12:52 PM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Sep 22 2009, 07:22 AM) *
Wanted: Manuscripts that explicate War as a vehicle for international problem solving!


I am heartened that there have been no fulfillments of your request...


I understand Representative Ike Skelton of Mo. is working on a munuscript to be called, The War Monger's Bible.
Magmak1
Taz-men, I was pretty damn close, but these guys are still all macho and stuff, and are trying (as they have done in other fields like psychology, psychiatry, sociology and even anthropology) to twist social and cognitive issues research into the service of pathology. They may yet succeed, unless someone somewhere begins to stand up. (I hope you're not waiting on Obama....)


Mind Training for Modern American Warriors
September 23rd, 2009

Via: Time:

Not long ago at Fort Bragg, N.C., the country’s largest military base, seven soldiers sat in a semi-circle, lights dimmed, eyes closed, two fingertips lightly pressed beneath their belly buttons to activate their “core.” Electronic music thumped as the soldiers tried to silence their thoughts, the key to Warrior Mind Training, a form of meditation slowly making inroads on military bases across the country. “This is mental push-ups,” Sarah Ernst told the weekly class she leads for soldiers at Fort Bragg. “There’s a certain burn. It’s a workout.”

Think military and you think macho, not meditation, but that’s about to change now that the Army intends to train its 1.1 million soldiers in the art of mental toughness. The Defense Department hopes that giving soldiers tools to fend off mental stress will toughen its troops at war and at home. It’s the first time mental combat is being mandated on a large scale, but a few thousand soldiers who have participated in a voluntary program called Warrior Mind Training have already gotten a taste of how strengthening the mind is way different — dare we say harder? — than pounding out the push-ups.

Warrior Mind Training is the brainchild of Ernst and two friends, who were teaching meditation and mind-training in California. In 2005, a Marine attended a class in San Diego and suggested expanding onto military bases. Ernst and her colleagues researched the military mindset, consulting with veterans who had practiced meditation on the battlefield and back home. She also delved into the science behind mind training to analyze how meditation tactics could help treat — and maybe even help prevent — post-traumatic stress disorder.

Rooted in the ancient Samurai code of self-discipline, Warrior Mind Training draws on the image of the mythic Japanese fighter, an elite swordsman who honed his battle skills along with his mental precision. The premise? Razor-sharp attention plus razor-sharp marksmanship equals fearsome warrior.

The Samurai image was selected after careful deliberation; it was certifiably anti-sissy. “We took a long time to decide how we were going to package this,” says Ernst, who moved to North Carolina in 2006 and teaches classes at Fort Bragg as well as Camp Lejeune, a Marine base near the coast. “There are a lot of ways you could describe the benefits of doing mind training and meditation. Maybe from a civilian approach we would emphasize cultivating happiness or peace. But that’s not generally what a young soldier is interested in. They want to become the best warrior they can be.”

The benefits of Warrior Mind Training, students have told instructors, are impressive: better aim on the shooting range, higher test scores, enhanced ability to handle combat stress and slip back into life at home. No comprehensive studies have been done, though a poll of 25 participants showed 70% said they felt better able to handle stressful situations and 65% had improved self-control.

The results were intriguing enough that Warrior Mind Training has been selected to participate in a University of Pittsburgh study on sleep disruption and fatigue in service members that will kick off early next year.

For now, success is measured anecdotally.

On patrol in Iraq two years ago, John Way would notice his mind straying. “Maybe I should be watching some guy over there and instead I’m thinking, ‘I’m hungry. Where’s my next Twinkie?’”

With privacy at a premium, he’d often retreat to a Port-A-Potty to practice the focusing skills he’d learned from Ernst at Fort Bragg. “To have a way to shut all this off is invaluable,” says Way.

http://cryptogon.com/?p=11204

"Kid, see the phsychiatrist, room 604."

And I went up there, I said, "Shrink, I want to kill. I mean, I wanna, I wanna kill. Kill. I wanna, I wanna see, I wanna see blood and gore and
guts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill, Kill, KILL, KILL." And I started jumpin up and down yelling, "KILL, KILL," and
he started jumpin up and down with me and we was both jumping up and down yelling, "KILL, KILL." And the sargent came over, pinned a medal on me,
sent me down the hall, said, "You're our boy."
rla
My colleagues and I demonstrated with research 30 years ago that Relaxation and Stress Management
Training significantly improved persons with disabilities performance in job interview--both at the process level with video taped interviews and at the outcome level with superior job placements.
TheRestofUs
Practice makes perfect. But. Another thing that should be paramount is that "love" is at the core of courage. Also truth. If you are truly defending your buddies and loved ones back home from a true enemy then the universe is behind you. If not?
Magmak1
QUOTE(TheRestofUs @ Sep 24 2009, 11:31 AM) *
Practice makes perfect. But. Another thing that should be paramount is that "love" is at the core of courage. Also truth. If you are truly defending your buddies and loved ones back home from a true enemy then the universe is behind you. If not?



O-sensei Morihei Ueshiba would agree. And, therefore, so do I.

Personally I do not see the "righteousness" in this war.

And I do not think he would either.






Magmak1
posted September 29, 2009 3:52 pm

Tomgram: John Feffer, Will NATO's 60th Anniversary Be Its Last?


If you think the Afghan War is increasingly unpopular in the United States, try Europe. A recent German Marshall Fund poll offered these figures on the question of the "share of population who want to reduce or withdraw troops" from that country: Romania, 71%; Poland, 68%; United Kingdom, 60%; Germany, 57%; Italy, 55%; Spain, 54%; France, 51%; Netherlands, 50%. When NATO took on its initial reconstruction role in Afghanistan -- a show of support for the U.S. and a pledge to help clean up its post-invasion mess -- it seemed a major step in the expansion of an alliance with the word "Atlantic" prominently in its name. It also represented something else seldom commented on: the long-term inability of junior partner Europe -- former French President Charles de Gaulle excepted -- to say "no" to whatever Washington desired.

Of course, a number of European countries, possibly fearing the worst, placed restrictions on their Afghan expeditionary forces that were meant to keep them out of the thick of fighting and, in some cases, restrict them to the north of Afghanistan where Pashtuns were relatively few and the Taliban weak to nonexistent. So much for hoping against hope. The war has slowly spread northwards and headlines like last weekend's "Seven NATO soldiers die in Afghanistan" have grown ever more common. Lurking behind rising European popular dissatisfaction over the alliance's Afghan albatross lie bigger questions: When will the Europeans finally say that "no," and what will that mean for NATO? These are questions co-director of the invaluable Foreign Policy in Focus website and TomDispatch regular John Feffer addresses on his return from a recent trip across the Atlantic. Tom

Afghanistan: NATO's Graveyard?
Is the Transatlantic Alliance Doomed?

By John Feffer

Celebrating its 60th birthday this year, NATO is looking peaked and significantly worse for wear. Aggressive and ineffectual, the organization shows signs of premature senility. Despite the smiles and reassuring rhetoric at its annual summits, its internal politics have become fractious to the point of dysfunction. Perhaps like any sexagenarian in this age of health-care crises and economic malaise, the transatlantic alliance is simply anxious about its future.

Frankly, it should be.

The painful truth is that NATO may be suffering from a terminal illness. Its current mission in Afghanistan, the alliance's most significant and far-flung muscle-flexing to date, might be its last. Afghanistan has been the graveyard of many an imperial power from the ancient Macedonians to the Soviets. It now seems to be eyeing its next victim.

For NATO, this year should have been a celebration, not a dirge. After suffering a transatlantic rift of epic proportions during the Bush years, the alliance thrilled to the election of Barack Obama and his politics of conciliation. The new American administration swore it would shift troops from Iraq to Afghanistan to give NATO more of what it wanted to fight "the right war." Vice President Joe Biden and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton both promised to push the "reset button" on U.S.-Russian relations, potentially removing one of the greatest obstacles to NATO's health and well-being. And in a final flourish for the alliance's diamond jubilee, France agreed to return to the fold, reintegrating into NATO after 43 years of standoffishness.

But hold those celebrations. Afghanistan has an uncanny ability to spoil anybody's best-laid plans. At the April 2009 NATO summit in Strasbourg, Obama failed to get the troop reinforcements he wanted from his European allies. The NATO powers, in any case, have attached so many strings and caveats to the troops they are supplying -- Germany has kept its soldiers away from the conflict-ridden south, most contingents have complex rules limiting combat operations, Canada will be pulling out in 2011 -- that NATO's mission resembles Gulliver tied down by the Lilliputians.

The real nail in NATO's coffin, however, has been its stunning lack of success on the ground. The Taliban has, in fact, not only increased its hold over large parts of southern Afghanistan, but spread north as well. Most embarrassingly for NATO, a recent surge of alliance troops seems only to have made the Taliban stronger. Nearly eight years of alternating destruction (air bombardment, over 100,000 troops on the ground) and reconstruction ($38 billion in economic assistance appropriated by the U.S. Congress since 2001) have all come up desperately short. A new counterinsurgency campaign doesn't look any more promising. What was once billed as the most powerful military alliance in history has been thwarted by an irregular set of militias and guerrilla groups without the backing of a major power in one of the poorest countries on Earth.

Worse yet, the Afghan operation has become a serious political liability for many NATO members. European politicians fear the kind of electoral backlash that ousted Britain's Tony Blair and Spain's Jose Maria Aznar when the Iraq War went south. Despite enthusiasm for Obama, European public opinion is, by increasingly large margins, in favor of reducing or withdrawing troops from Afghanistan (55% of West Europeans and 69% of East Europeans according to a recent German Marshall Fund poll). Mounting combat fatalities, a rising civilian casualty count, and devastating snafus like the recent bombing of two fuel trucks stolen by the Taliban in Kunduz Province that killed many civilians have only strengthened anti-war feeling.

Meanwhile, in the United States, both elite and public opinion is turning against the war. With the American economy still reeling from recession, President Obama faces a guns-vs-butter dilemma that threatens to wreck his domestic agenda as surely as the Vietnam War deep-sixed Lyndon Johnson's Great Society reforms of the 1960s. No surprise then that the president is ambivalent about following his top general's request to send yet more U.S. troops to fight in what the press now calls "Obama's War."

Not so long ago, pundits were calling for a global NATO that would expand its power and membership to include U.S. partners in Asia and elsewhere. This hubris has given way to despair and discord. Although the United States still holds out hope for a NATO that focuses on global threats like terrorism and nuclear proliferation, other alliance members would prefer to refocus on the traditional mission of defending Europe. Add in disagreements between the United States and its allies over how to approach the Afghan situation and NATO begins to look more like a rugby scrum than a military alliance.

NATO officials are now scrambling to sort things out, in part by calling the allies together to debate a new Afghan strategy before the year ends. Meanwhile, NATO's Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen is preparing a new "strategic concept" that would recode the organization's operating system for the next summit in Lisbon in 2010.

It might be too little, too late. Some U.S. officials are fed up with what they consider European dilly-dallying about Afghanistan. "We have been very much disappointed by the performance of many if not most of our allies," Robert E. Hunter, the U.S. ambassador to NATO during the Clinton administration, recently said in testimony before Congress. "Indeed, there are elements within the U.S. government that are beginning to wonder about the continued value of the NATO Alliance."

As for the Europeans, they are building up their own independent military capabilities -- and will continue to do so whether or not NATO gets its act together. The question is: Will the Afghan War eventually push the United States and Europe toward an amicable divorce? If so, the military campaign that was to give NATO a new lease on life and turn it into a global military force will have proven to be its ultimate undoing.

Near-Death Experiences

This is NATO's second brush with death since the collective security organization was founded in 1949 to counter the Soviet Union. Although it didn't fire a shot during its entire Cold War existence, NATO did fulfill its mission: to keep the Americans in, the Russians out, and the Germans down, according to the infamous catechism of Lord Ismay, NATO's first secretary general.

When the Cold War ended and the Warsaw Pact vanished, NATO was suddenly an organization without a mission. During the early 1990s, it cast around for new portfolios -- environmental work, humanitarian missions, anything. It needed a raison d'être fast. After all, the conflict-prevention mission of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe spoke more directly to the post-Cold War temperament, and transatlantic publics were eager for their peace dividends. NATO was seen as a pillar of the old world order at a time when even President George H.W. Bush seemed prepared to accept something radically new (though he settled, of course, for a rough approximation of the status quo ante).

Tragedy proved NATO's salvation. The organization got a second wind when Yugoslavia disintegrated into warring states and European governments did little to prevent the bloodletting in the Balkans. The United States belatedly turned to NATO in 1995 to fly a few bombing missions against Serbian forces during the Bosnian conflict. Then, in 1999, responding to fears of Serbian escalation in Kosovo, NATO engaged in its first-ever war. During the 77-day conflict, the alliance conducted 38,000 air sorties against Serbian targets that resulted in considerable "collateral" damage including Serbian civilians, Albanian refugees, and, famously, the Chinese embassy in Belgrade. Although no NATO personnel died during these combat operations, the alliance acquired a reputation as the gang that couldn't shoot straight.

As if the Balkans weren't rationale enough, NATO also fell back on an old directive: to keep Russia out. Eastern Europe's persistent fear of its former overlord injected new purpose into the organization. Although Russia's leaders believed that Washington had promised not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe, the alliance did just that -- and with gusto. First, it established a kind of alliance halfway house in 1994 that it dubbed the Partnership for Peace; then, in 1999, NATO accepted the Czech Republic, Hungary, and Poland as members; and five years after that, it expanded into the former Soviet Union by absorbing the Baltic states of Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia along with Bulgaria, Romania, Slovakia, and Slovenia. Russia has, to put it mildly, been less than thrilled by NATO's eastward leap and then creep. Meanwhile, wary of Russia's military campaigns in Chechnya, Georgia, and Moldova as well as its energy power plays against countries to its west, the Eastern Europeans have eagerly huddled beneath the NATO "umbrella."

As it happens, neither the Balkan tragedies nor the putative Russian threat proved to be unalloyed blessings for the alliance. The Balkan campaigns created enormous stress for its military command, and only the brevity of the air war over Kosovo saved it from popular repudiation across Europe. The expansion of NATO into Eastern Europe, meanwhile, made consensus within an already unwieldy institution more difficult.

The once central focus of NATO -- a commitment to the collective defense of any member under attack -- was, by now, looking ever less workable. Western European countries appeared anything but enthusiastic about the idea of defending the former Soviet bloc states against a prospective Russian attack. And despite promises to station troops in Central and Eastern Europe, the United States left its new NATO allies in the lurch. "While they are loath to say it publicly, [Central and Eastern European] leaders have told me that they are no longer certain NATO is capable of coming to their rescue if there were a crisis involving Russia," wrote Ronald Asmus, former deputy assistant secretary of state in the Clinton administration. "They no longer believe that the political solidarity exists or that NATO's creaky machinery would take the needed steps."

On the eve of September 11th, a decade after the end of the Cold War, NATO had become an overstretched alliance with an ill-defined but expansive mission and a collection of member states increasingly at odds with each other. When the United States prepared to attack Afghanistan and then Iraq, the Bush administration simply bypassed NATO, constructing its own ad hoc coalitions "of the willing." (Only in 2003 did the Bush administration turn to NATO to shoulder some of the local burden.) There could have been no greater vote of no-confidence in the institution.

The Afghan Test Case

Since the end of the Cold War, the U.S. troop presence in Europe has been plummeting. From a Cold War peak of several hundred thousand, it had dropped to around 44,000 by 2007. Reductions to the 30,000-level or even lower have been discussed. With U.S. forces stretched to the limit elsewhere in the world and U.S. strategists fixated on the energy heartlands of the Middle East and Central Asia, the European theater of operations has been (and remains) the obvious place for force reductions.

Washington will certainly continue to maintain key military bases in the United Kingdom, Italy, and Germany and has been setting up new ones in Bulgaria, Romania, and Kosovo (that just happen to be closer to the energy resources of Eurasia and the Middle East). Turkey and possibly the Balkans are slated to become important locations for a more advanced version of the missile defense system that President Obama recently canceled for Poland and the Czech Republic, bases which once figured prominently in the Bush administration's plans for Europe. In sum, U.S. forces and resources once available to NATO's European operations have been rapidly dwindling.

At the same time, in the Bush years Washington chose to push the alliance to expand beyond its traditional focus on Europe and think global, focusing on terrorism, piracy, nuclear proliferation, and other international threats. In this way, the United States imagined that it might be able to place some of the financial burden for its own self-appointed global mission on its European allies. The Afghan War and reconstruction effort, an out-of-area operation with global significance, was clearly to be the test case for Washington's version of a new and improved NATO.

On the other hand, the newest members of the alliance from Eastern and Central Europe wanted the focus to remain on threats to Europe itself (that is, to them). They continued to be purely Russia-focused. The leadership in Poland and the Czech Republic, in particular, were eager for the recently canceled missile defense bases not because they particularly believed in, or cared about, missile defense per se, or feared a future Iranian first strike, but because they were eager for proof of Washington's willingness to counter Moscow. For these Europe Firsters, Afghanistan has been nothing but a distraction from the essential mission of keeping the Russian bear at arm's length.

This, then, is the tug of war within NATO: between the Europe First faction and the Go Global faction. Oddly, both sides appear on the verge of falling into the mud. Now that the Obama administration is making nice with Russia, the Europe Firsters don't have a threat to stand on. For the Go Global faction, meanwhile, victory within NATO requires victory within Afghanistan, which is why, in 2007, future AfPak czar Richard Holbrooke declared that "Afghanistan represents the ultimate test for NATO."

If Afghanistan is the test, then NATO is flunking. The Taliban has made a steady comeback since its rout in 2001. More American soldiers, as well as more soldiers from the other coalition partners, have already died in 2009 than in any of the previous eight years. The number of civilian casualties -- 2008 was a record year and 2009 will likely break that record -- fly in the face of NATO's "responsibility to protect" guidelines. There aren't anywhere near the number of troops necessary for an effective counterinsurgency campaign, if such a thing were even possible in distant Afghanistan, and what troops are there have proven ill-trained for "hearts and minds" work. Nor are there sufficient Afghan troops trained, almost eight years after the initial invasion of that country, to "Afghanize" the NATO side of the conflict. As for the grander projects of democracy promotion and nation-building, Afghanistan's rudimentary economy remains heavily dependent on opium poppy production and its political system suffers from rampant corruption of which the irregularities of the most recent presidential election represent only the tip of the malfeasance.

No wonder, then, that the Europeans are thinking seriously about how to get out. After a suicide attack in Kabul killed six Italian paratroopers in mid-September, for instance, Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi announced that "we must bring our boys home as soon as possible." The war also suddenly became a major issue in Germany on the eve of national elections when a German commander called in U.S. air strikes on those two stolen fuel trucks in Kunduz. The attack, which killed an unknown number of Afghan civilians, has driven home to the German public that its mission in Afghanistan qualifies as neither a humanitarian nor a stabilization effort, and anti-war sentiment is rising accordingly. Moreover, the bombing has caused an unusual upsurge in bickering between Germany and the United States over responsibility for the incident and overall strategy. Just over the summer, the British lost 40 soldiers in the conflict, and a majority of Britons now want their troops withdrawn right away, which is likely to mean that the government's reported decision to send yet another 1,000 troops to Afghanistan will go down very poorly indeed with the voters.

How can NATO go global when it can't even pass its first major test in Afghanistan? "It is of course possible that NATO can survive Afghanistan even in the absence of total success: it depends on the extent of its failure," Danish security analysts Jens Ringsmose and Sten Rynning have written. "What seems certain is that failure in the Hindu Kush will constitute a serious blow to global NATO."

With NATO having to downscale, like the rest of us in these recessionary times, forget the notion that the alliance should mount out-of-area operations, argues former U.S. diplomat David T. Jones for the conservative think tank Foreign Policy Research Institute. "Aggression, terrorism, piracy, and human rights debacles need be addressed, but NATO is not the hammer for these nails. The United States needs to be more discerning about using this stiletto to chop wood. A 'coalition of the willing' is a tarnished term, but NATO is verging on becoming a coalition of the unwilling."

"NATO often seems to be an organization that is permanently in crisis, but it always seems to bounce back," argues Ian Davis of NATO Watch. "This is partly because collective defense/security solutions continue to make sense, not least to: prevent a renationalization of defense in Europe; to lock-in U.S. administrations (as far as possible) to multilateral and law-based approaches; and to provide sufficient security guarantees to enable nuclear disarmament to proceed, and for likely recessionary conventional disarmament to take place without causing instability." But will these workaday goals be enough to keep the institution afloat?

Fine-Tuning the Prime Directive

In 2010, NATO will update its prime directive for the first time in a decade, and the Go Global faction will battle with the Europe Firsters for the driver's seat. Neither group is likely to gain enough power within the organization to steer it alone. Undoubtedly, a compromise will emerge. For instance, Zbigniew Brzezinski, the former U.S. national security adviser and consummate geopolitician, argues in a recent Foreign Affairs essay that NATO should focus on building security relationships with the world. In this scenario, NATO emerges as more of a grand facilitator than a robust fighting force. If, on the other hand, Afghanistan truly takes the fight out of NATO, the more radical proposals of the Citizens Declaration of Alliance Security, which calls for a more defensive military posture at lower levels of spending, while restricting out-of-area operations to U.N.-authorized missions, might come into play.

All institutions have a strong survival instinct, if only to continue providing salaries to their employees. NATO will surely outlive its strategic planning process, its failures in Afghanistan, and its adjustment to new global threats. But it may survive in name only. If it shrinks to the role of grand facilitator or U.N. handmaiden, it will have effectively ceased to be a transatlantic collective security organization. The United States will then lean toward ad hoc coalitions to achieve its military objectives, while Europe build ups its independent military power.

Initially, Europe began to beef up its collective military capabilities to acquire a voice in the international community commensurate with its economic power, as well as to send a not-so-subtle message to the unilateralist Bush administration. Today, the European Union maintains two rapid-deployment battle groups of 1,500 soldiers each and expects, in the near future, to pull together another 10 or so battle groups from existing national armies. These forces have already conducted missions in more than 20 countries. Europe's military-industrial complex, meanwhile, is trying to push up military budgets and aggressively market European arms in overseas markets. All of this still represents a far cry from what NATO commands, but a signal is certainly being sent: if the United States thinks it can go it alone -- or simply dragoon the alliance into its own version of a global mission -- Europe will have options.

Even at 60, NATO hasn't quite proven that it can live on its own in a sustainable and responsible manner. Indeed, it is still struggling with a Hamlet-like identity crisis: to attack or not to attack. The Afghan war has only underscored this central paradox. If the alliance doesn't engage in military operations, everyone questions its ultimate purpose. But if it does go to war -- and the war is unsuccessful -- everyone questions its ultimate efficacy.

Damned if it does and damned if it doesn't, NATO will limp along much as the British and Soviet empires did after their misadventures in Central Asia. These were, after all, dead empires walking. NATO may be in this category as well. It just doesn't know it yet.



John Feffer is the co-director of Foreign Policy in Focus at the Institute for Policy Studies and writes its regular World Beat column. His past essays, including those for Tomdispatch.com, can be read at his website.

Copyright 2009 John Feffer



http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175120/joh...ry_be_its_last_
tazvil04
QUOTE(Magmak1 @ Sep 24 2009, 07:03 AM) *
Taz-men, I was pretty damn close, but these guys are still all macho and stuff, and are trying (as they have done in other fields like psychology, psychiatry, sociology and even anthropology) to twist social and cognitive issues research into the service of pathology. They may yet succeed, unless someone somewhere begins to stand up. (I hope you're not waiting on Obama....)


Mind Training for Modern American Warriors
September 23rd, 2009

Via: Time:

Not long ago at Fort Bragg, N.C., the country’s largest military base, seven soldiers sat in a semi-circle, lights dimmed, eyes closed, two fingertips lightly pressed beneath their belly buttons to activate their “core.” Electronic music thumped as the soldiers tried to silence their thoughts, the key to Warrior Mind Training, a form of meditation slowly making inroads on military bases across the country. “This is mental push-ups,” Sarah Ernst told the weekly class she leads for soldiers at Fort Bragg. “There’s a certain burn. It’s a workout.”

Think military and you think macho, not meditation, but that’s about to change now that the Army intends to train its 1.1 million soldiers in the art of mental toughness. The Defense Department hopes that giving soldiers tools to fend off mental stress will toughen its troops at war and at home. It’s the first time mental combat is being mandated on a large scale, but a few thousand soldiers who have participated in a voluntary program called Warrior Mind Training have already gotten a taste of how strengthening the mind is way different — dare we say harder? — than pounding out the push-ups.

Warrior Mind Training is the brainchild of Ernst and two friends, who were teaching meditation and mind-training in California. In 2005, a Marine attended a class in San Diego and suggested expanding onto military bases. Ernst and her colleagues researched the military mindset, consulting with veterans who had practiced meditation on the battlefield and back home. She also delved into the science behind mind training to analyze how meditation tactics could help treat — and maybe even help prevent — post-traumatic stress disorder.

Rooted in the ancient Samurai code of self-discipline, Warrior Mind Training draws on the image of the mythic Japanese fighter, an elite swordsman who honed his battle skills along with his mental precision. The premise? Razor-sharp attention plus razor-sharp marksmanship equals fearsome warrior.

The Samurai image was selected after careful deliberation; it was certifiably anti-sissy. “We took a long time to decide how we were going to package this,” says Ernst, who moved to North Carolina in 2006 and teaches classes at Fort Bragg as well as Camp Lejeune, a Marine base near the coast. “There are a lot of ways you could describe the benefits of doing mind training and meditation. Maybe from a civilian approach we would emphasize cultivating happiness or peace. But that’s not generally what a young soldier is interested in. They want to become the best warrior they can be.”

The benefits of Warrior Mind Training, students have told instructors, are impressive: better aim on the shooting range, higher test scores, enhanced ability to handle combat stress and slip back into life at home. No comprehensive studies have been done, though a poll of 25 participants showed 70% said they felt better able to handle stressful situations and 65% had improved self-control.

The results were intriguing enough that Warrior Mind Training has been selected to participate in a University of Pittsburgh study on sleep disruption and fatigue in service members that will kick off early next year.

For now, success is measured anecdotally.

On patrol in Iraq two years ago, John Way would notice his mind straying. “Maybe I should be watching some guy over there and instead I’m thinking, ‘I’m hungry. Where’s my next Twinkie?’”

With privacy at a premium, he’d often retreat to a Port-A-Potty to practice the focusing skills he’d learned from Ernst at Fort Bragg. “To have a way to shut all this off is invaluable,” says Way.

http://cryptogon.com/?p=11204

"Kid, see the phsychiatrist, room 604."

And I went up there, I said, "Shrink, I want to kill. I mean, I wanna, I wanna kill. Kill. I wanna, I wanna see, I wanna see blood and gore and
guts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill, Kill, KILL, KILL." And I started jumpin up and down yelling, "KILL, KILL," and
he started jumpin up and down with me and we was both jumping up and down yelling, "KILL, KILL." And the sargent came over, pinned a medal on me,
sent me down the hall, said, "You're our boy."


One can only have hope for so long... thud.gif

Then that old Einstein definition of insanity starts creeping in...doing the same thing expecting a different result...

I do not expect Obama to work miracles...but I do expect him to start making decisions...

We have Bill Clinton who agonized over making the wrong decision...made a couple but most of them turned out to be the right decisions..

We had Bush who agonized over making no decisions because he thought God blessed his every move and most or at least many of his turned out to be wrong...

And we have Obama who seems similarly to Clinton to agonize over making decisions...and wanting to do what appears to be the popular thing...a little too often...

The jury is still out...but on things like the above...there has to be a better --- way....because the above cannot be acceptable...the above is not just mind training...its personality destruction...
tazvil04
QUOTE(Magmak1 @ Sep 29 2009, 11:55 PM) *
posted September 29, 2009 3:52 pm

Tomgram: John Feffer, Will NATO's 60th Anniversary Be Its Last?


If you think the Afghan War is increasingly unpopular in the United States, try Europe. A recent German Marshall Fund poll offered these figures on the question of the "share of population who want to reduce or withdraw troops" from that country: Romania, 71%; Poland, 68%; United Kingdom, 60%; Germany, 57%; Italy, 55%; Spain, 54%; France, 51%; Netherlands, 50%. When NATO took on its initial reconstruction role in Afghanistan -- a show of support for the U.S. and a pledge to help clean up its post-invasion mess -- it seemed a major step in the expansion of an alliance with the word "Atlantic" prominently in its name. It also represented something else seldom commented on: the long-term inability of junior partner Europe -- former French President Charles de Gaulle excepted -- to say "no" to whatever Washington desired.

Of course, a number of European countries, possibly fearing the worst, placed restrictions on their Afghan expeditionary forces that were meant to keep them out of the thick of fighting and, in some cases, restrict them to the north of Afghanistan where Pashtuns were relatively few and the Taliban weak to nonexistent. So much for hoping against hope. The war has slowly spread northwards and headlines like last weekend's "Seven NATO soldiers die in Afghanistan" have grown ever more common. Lurking behind rising European popular dissatisfaction over the alliance's Afghan albatross lie bigger questions: When will the Europeans finally say that "no," and what will that mean for NATO? These are questions co-director of the invaluable Foreign Policy in Focus website and TomDispatch regular John Feffer addresses on his return from a recent trip across the Atlantic. Tom

Afghanistan: NATO's Graveyard?
Is the Transatlantic Alliance Doomed?

By John Feffer

Celebrating its 60th birthday this year, NATO is looking peaked and significantly worse for wear. Aggressive and ineffectual, the organization shows signs of premature senility. Despite the smiles and reassuring rhetoric at its annual summits, its internal politics have become fractious to the point of dysfunction. Perhaps like any sexagenarian in this age of health-care crises and economic malaise, the transatlantic alliance is simply anxious about its future.

Frankly, it should be.

The painful truth is that NATO may be suffering from a terminal illness. Its current mission in Afghanistan, the alliance's most significant and far-flung muscle-flexing to date, might be its last. Afghanistan has been the graveyard of many an imperial power from the ancient Macedonians to the Soviets. It now seems to be eyeing its next victim.

For NATO, this year should have been a celebration, not a dirge. After suffering a transatlantic rift of epic proportions during the Bush years, the alliance thrilled to the election of Barack Obama and his politics of conciliation. The new American administration swore it would shift troops from Iraq to Afghanistan to give NATO more of what it wanted to fight "the right war." Vice President Joe Biden and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton both promised to push the "reset button" on U.S.-Russian relations, potentially removing one of the greatest obstacles to NATO's health and well-being. And in a final flourish for the alliance's diamond jubilee, France agreed to return to the fold, reintegrating into NATO after 43 years of standoffishness.

But hold those celebrations. Afghanistan has an uncanny ability to spoil anybody's best-laid plans. At the April 2009 NATO summit in Strasbourg, Obama failed to get the troop reinforcements he wanted from his European allies. The NATO powers, in any case, have attached so many strings and caveats to the troops they are supplying -- Germany has kept its soldiers away from the conflict-ridden south, most contingents have complex rules limiting combat operations, Canada will be pulling out in 2011 -- that NATO's mission resembles Gulliver tied down by the Lilliputians.

The real nail in NATO's coffin, however, has been its stunning lack of success on the ground. The Taliban has, in fact, not only increased its hold over large parts of southern Afghanistan, but spread north as well. Most embarrassingly for NATO, a recent surge of alliance troops seems only to have made the Taliban stronger. Nearly eight years of alternating destruction (air bombardment, over 100,000 troops on the ground) and reconstruction ($38 billion in economic assistance appropriated by the U.S. Congress since 2001) have all come up desperately short. A new counterinsurgency campaign doesn't look any more promising. What was once billed as the most powerful military alliance in history has been thwarted by an irregular set of militias and guerrilla groups without the backing of a major power in one of the poorest countries on Earth.

Worse yet, the Afghan operation has become a serious political liability for many NATO members. European politicians fear the kind of electoral backlash that ousted Britain's Tony Blair and Spain's Jose Maria Aznar when the Iraq War went south. Despite enthusiasm for Obama, European public opinion is, by increasingly large margins, in favor of reducing or withdrawing troops from Afghanistan (55% of West Europeans and 69% of East Europeans according to a recent German Marshall Fund poll). Mounting combat fatalities, a rising civilian casualty count, and devastating snafus like the recent bombing of two fuel trucks stolen by the Taliban in Kunduz Province that killed many civilians have only strengthened anti-war feeling.

Meanwhile, in the United States, both elite and public opinion is turning against the war. With the American economy still reeling from recession, President Obama faces a guns-vs-butter dilemma that threatens to wreck his domestic agenda as surely as the Vietnam War deep-sixed Lyndon Johnson's Great Society reforms of the 1960s. No surprise then that the president is ambivalent about following his top general's request to send yet more U.S. troops to fight in what the press now calls "Obama's War."

Not so long ago, pundits were calling for a global NATO that would expand its power and membership to include U.S. partners in Asia and elsewhere. This hubris has given way to despair and discord. Although the United States still holds out hope for a NATO that focuses on global threats like terrorism and nuclear proliferation, other alliance members would prefer to refocus on the traditional mission of defending Europe. Add in disagreements between the United States and its allies over how to approach the Afghan situation and NATO begins to look more like a rugby scrum than a military alliance.

NATO officials are now scrambling to sort things out, in part by calling the allies together to debate a new Afghan strategy before the year ends. Meanwhile, NATO's Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen is preparing a new "strategic concept" that would recode the organization's operating system for the next summit in Lisbon in 2010.

It might be too little, too late. Some U.S. officials are fed up with what they consider European dilly-dallying about Afghanistan. "We have been very much disappointed by the performance of many if not most of our allies," Robert E. Hunter, the U.S. ambassador to NATO during the Clinton administration, recently said in testimony before Congress. "Indeed, there are elements within the U.S. government that are beginning to wonder about the continued value of the NATO Alliance."

As for the Europeans, they are building up their own independent military capabilities -- and will continue to do so whether or not NATO gets its act together. The question is: Will the Afghan War eventually push the United States and Europe toward an amicable divorce? If so, the military campaign that was to give NATO a new lease on life and turn it into a global military force will have proven to be its ultimate undoing.

Near-Death Experiences

This is NATO's second brush with death since the collective security organization was founded in 1949 to counter the Soviet Union. Although it didn't fire a shot during its entire Cold War existence, NATO did fulfill its mission: to keep the Americans in, the Russians out, and the Germans down, according to the infamous catechism of Lord Ismay, NATO's first secretary general.

When the Cold War ended and the Warsaw Pact vanished, NATO was suddenly an organization without a mission. During the early 1990s, it cast around for new portfolios -- environmental work, humanitarian missions, anything. It needed a raison d'être fast. After all, the conflict-prevention mission of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe spoke more directly to the post-Cold War temperament, and transatlantic publics were eager for their peace dividends. NATO was seen as a pillar of the old world order at a time when even President George H.W. Bush seemed prepared to accept something radically new (though he settled, of course, for a rough approximation of the status quo ante).

Tragedy proved NATO's salvation. The organization got a second wind when Yugoslavia disintegrated into warring states and European governments did little to prevent the bloodletting in the Balkans. The United States belatedly turned to NATO in 1995 to fly a few bombing missions against Serbian forces during the Bosnian conflict. Then, in 1999, responding to fears of Serbian escalation in Kosovo, NATO engaged in its first-ever war. During the 77-day conflict, the alliance conducted 38,000 air sorties against Serbian targets that resulted in considerable "collateral" damage including Serbian civilians, Albanian refugees, and, famously, the Chinese embassy in Belgrade. Although no NATO personnel died during these combat operations, the alliance acquired a reputation as the gang that couldn't shoot straight.

As if the Balkans weren't rationale enough, NATO also fell back on an old directive: to keep Russia out. Eastern Europe's persistent fear of its former overlord injected new purpose into the organization. Although Russia's leaders believed that Washington had promised not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe, the alliance did just that -- and with gusto. First, it established a kind of alliance halfway house in 1994 that it dubbed the Partnership for Peace; then, in 1999, NATO accepted the Czech Republic, Hungary, and Poland as members; and five years after that, it expanded into the former Soviet Union by absorbing the Baltic states of Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia along with Bulgaria, Romania, Slovakia, and Slovenia. Russia has, to put it mildly, been less than thrilled by NATO's eastward leap and then creep. Meanwhile, wary of Russia's military campaigns in Chechnya, Georgia, and Moldova as well as its energy power plays against countries to its west, the Eastern Europeans have eagerly huddled beneath the NATO "umbrella."

As it happens, neither the Balkan tragedies nor the putative Russian threat proved to be unalloyed blessings for the alliance. The Balkan campaigns created enormous stress for its military command, and only the brevity of the air war over Kosovo saved it from popular repudiation across Europe. The expansion of NATO into Eastern Europe, meanwhile, made consensus within an already unwieldy institution more difficult.

The once central focus of NATO -- a commitment to the collective defense of any member under attack -- was, by now, looking ever less workable. Western European countries appeared anything but enthusiastic about the idea of defending the former Soviet bloc states against a prospective Russian attack. And despite promises to station troops in Central and Eastern Europe, the United States left its new NATO allies in the lurch. "While they are loath to say it publicly, [Central and Eastern European] leaders have told me that they are no longer certain NATO is capable of coming to their rescue if there were a crisis involving Russia," wrote Ronald Asmus, former deputy assistant secretary of state in the Clinton administration. "They no longer believe that the political solidarity exists or that NATO's creaky machinery would take the needed steps."

On the eve of September 11th, a decade after the end of the Cold War, NATO had become an overstretched alliance with an ill-defined but expansive mission and a collection of member states increasingly at odds with each other. When the United States prepared to attack Afghanistan and then Iraq, the Bush administration simply bypassed NATO, constructing its own ad hoc coalitions "of the willing." (Only in 2003 did the Bush administration turn to NATO to shoulder some of the local burden.) There could have been no greater vote of no-confidence in the institution.

The Afghan Test Case

Since the end of the Cold War, the U.S. troop presence in Europe has been plummeting. From a Cold War peak of several hundred thousand, it had dropped to around 44,000 by 2007. Reductions to the 30,000-level or even lower have been discussed. With U.S. forces stretched to the limit elsewhere in the world and U.S. strategists fixated on the energy heartlands of the Middle East and Central Asia, the European theater of operations has been (and remains) the obvious place for force reductions.

Washington will certainly continue to maintain key military bases in the United Kingdom, Italy, and Germany and has been setting up new ones in Bulgaria, Romania, and Kosovo (that just happen to be closer to the energy resources of Eurasia and the Middle East). Turkey and possibly the Balkans are slated to become important locations for a more advanced version of the missile defense system that President Obama recently canceled for Poland and the Czech Republic, bases which once figured prominently in the Bush administration's plans for Europe. In sum, U.S. forces and resources once available to NATO's European operations have been rapidly dwindling.

At the same time, in the Bush years Washington chose to push the alliance to expand beyond its traditional focus on Europe and think global, focusing on terrorism, piracy, nuclear proliferation, and other international threats. In this way, the United States imagined that it might be able to place some of the financial burden for its own self-appointed global mission on its European allies. The Afghan War and reconstruction effort, an out-of-area operation with global significance, was clearly to be the test case for Washington's version of a new and improved NATO.

On the other hand, the newest members of the alliance from Eastern and Central Europe wanted the focus to remain on threats to Europe itself (that is, to them). They continued to be purely Russia-focused. The leadership in Poland and the Czech Republic, in particular, were eager for the recently canceled missile defense bases not because they particularly believed in, or cared about, missile defense per se, or feared a future Iranian first strike, but because they were eager for proof of Washington's willingness to counter Moscow. For these Europe Firsters, Afghanistan has been nothing but a distraction from the essential mission of keeping the Russian bear at arm's length.

This, then, is the tug of war within NATO: between the Europe First faction and the Go Global faction. Oddly, both sides appear on the verge of falling into the mud. Now that the Obama administration is making nice with Russia, the Europe Firsters don't have a threat to stand on. For the Go Global faction, meanwhile, victory within NATO requires victory within Afghanistan, which is why, in 2007, future AfPak czar Richard Holbrooke declared that "Afghanistan represents the ultimate test for NATO."

If Afghanistan is the test, then NATO is flunking. The Taliban has made a steady comeback since its rout in 2001. More American soldiers, as well as more soldiers from the other coalition partners, have already died in 2009 than in any of the previous eight years. The number of civilian casualties -- 2008 was a record year and 2009 will likely break that record -- fly in the face of NATO's "responsibility to protect" guidelines. There aren't anywhere near the number of troops necessary for an effective counterinsurgency campaign, if such a thing were even possible in distant Afghanistan, and what troops are there have proven ill-trained for "hearts and minds" work. Nor are there sufficient Afghan troops trained, almost eight years after the initial invasion of that country, to "Afghanize" the NATO side of the conflict. As for the grander projects of democracy promotion and nation-building, Afghanistan's rudimentary economy remains heavily dependent on opium poppy production and its political system suffers from rampant corruption of which the irregularities of the most recent presidential election represent only the tip of the malfeasance.

No wonder, then, that the Europeans are thinking seriously about how to get out. After a suicide attack in Kabul killed six Italian paratroopers in mid-September, for instance, Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi announced that "we must bring our boys home as soon as possible." The war also suddenly became a major issue in Germany on the eve of national elections when a German commander called in U.S. air strikes on those two stolen fuel trucks in Kunduz. The attack, which killed an unknown number of Afghan civilians, has driven home to the German public that its mission in Afghanistan qualifies as neither a humanitarian nor a stabilization effort, and anti-war sentiment is rising accordingly. Moreover, the bombing has caused an unusual upsurge in bickering between Germany and the United States over responsibility for the incident and overall strategy. Just over the summer, the British lost 40 soldiers in the conflict, and a majority of Britons now want their troops withdrawn right away, which is likely to mean that the government's reported decision to send yet another 1,000 troops to Afghanistan will go down very poorly indeed with the voters.

How can NATO go global when it can't even pass its first major test in Afghanistan? "It is of course possible that NATO can survive Afghanistan even in the absence of total success: it depends on the extent of its failure," Danish security analysts Jens Ringsmose and Sten Rynning have written. "What seems certain is that failure in the Hindu Kush will constitute a serious blow to global NATO."

With NATO having to downscale, like the rest of us in these recessionary times, forget the notion that the alliance should mount out-of-area operations, argues former U.S. diplomat David T. Jones for the conservative think tank Foreign Policy Research Institute. "Aggression, terrorism, piracy, and human rights debacles need be addressed, but NATO is not the hammer for these nails. The United States needs to be more discerning about using this stiletto to chop wood. A 'coalition of the willing' is a tarnished term, but NATO is verging on becoming a coalition of the unwilling."

"NATO often seems to be an organization that is permanently in crisis, but it always seems to bounce back," argues Ian Davis of NATO Watch. "This is partly because collective defense/security solutions continue to make sense, not least to: prevent a renationalization of defense in Europe; to lock-in U.S. administrations (as far as possible) to multilateral and law-based approaches; and to provide sufficient security guarantees to enable nuclear disarmament to proceed, and for likely recessionary conventional disarmament to take place without causing instability." But will these workaday goals be enough to keep the institution afloat?

Fine-Tuning the Prime Directive

In 2010, NATO will update its prime directive for the first time in a decade, and the Go Global faction will battle with the Europe Firsters for the driver's seat. Neither group is likely to gain enough power within the organization to steer it alone. Undoubtedly, a compromise will emerge. For instance, Zbigniew Brzezinski, the former U.S. national security adviser and consummate geopolitician, argues in a recent Foreign Affairs essay that NATO should focus on building security relationships with the world. In this scenario, NATO emerges as more of a grand facilitator than a robust fighting force. If, on the other hand, Afghanistan truly takes the fight out of NATO, the more radical proposals of the Citizens Declaration of Alliance Security, which calls for a more defensive military posture at lower levels of spending, while restricting out-of-area operations to U.N.-authorized missions, might come into play.

All institutions have a strong survival instinct, if only to continue providing salaries to their employees. NATO will surely outlive its strategic planning process, its failures in Afghanistan, and its adjustment to new global threats. But it may survive in name only. If it shrinks to the role of grand facilitator or U.N. handmaiden, it will have effectively ceased to be a transatlantic collective security organization. The United States will then lean toward ad hoc coalitions to achieve its military objectives, while Europe build ups its independent military power.

Initially, Europe began to beef up its collective military capabilities to acquire a voice in the international community commensurate with its economic power, as well as to send a not-so-subtle message to the unilateralist Bush administration. Today, the European Union maintains two rapid-deployment battle groups of 1,500 soldiers each and expects, in the near future, to pull together another 10 or so battle groups from existing national armies. These forces have already conducted missions in more than 20 countries. Europe's military-industrial complex, meanwhile, is trying to push up military budgets and aggressively market European arms in overseas markets. All of this still represents a far cry from what NATO commands, but a signal is certainly being sent: if the United States thinks it can go it alone -- or simply dragoon the alliance into its own version of a global mission -- Europe will have options.

Even at 60, NATO hasn't quite proven that it can live on its own in a sustainable and responsible manner. Indeed, it is still struggling with a Hamlet-like identity crisis: to attack or not to attack. The Afghan war has only underscored this central paradox. If the alliance doesn't engage in military operations, everyone questions its ultimate purpose. But if it does go to war -- and the war is unsuccessful -- everyone questions its ultimate efficacy.

Damned if it does and damned if it doesn't, NATO will limp along much as the British and Soviet empires did after their misadventures in Central Asia. These were, after all, dead empires walking. NATO may be in this category as well. It just doesn't know it yet.



John Feffer is the co-director of Foreign Policy in Focus at the Institute for Policy Studies and writes its regular World Beat column. His past essays, including those for Tomdispatch.com, can be read at his website.

Copyright 2009 John Feffer

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175120/joh...ry_be_its_last_



There is a very good chance that it could be...that NATO has outlived its usefulness...that the present world order needs a different alliance...and that the present one is not meeting the needs of the international community or the constituent members of NATO...

The needs of the US are certainly not being met...as other nations refuse over and over and over again to share the combat burden...of Afghanistan...
Magmak1
From Citizens for Legitimate Government:

Ah, this might explain US interests:

Afghanistan sitting on a gold mine --

The USGS estimates there are about 700 billion cubic metres of gas and 300 million tonnes of oil across several northern provinces.

21 Feb 2008

Afghanistan is sitting on a wealth of mineral reserves -- perhaps the richest in the region -- that offer hope for a country mired in poverty after decades of war, the mining minister says. Significant deposits of copper, iron, gold, oil and gas, and coal -- as well as precious gems such as emeralds and rubies -- are largely untapped and still being mapped, Mohammad Ibrahim Adel told AFP.

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/2008/02/21...-gold-mine.html

See also:

http://afghanistan.cr.usgs.gov/

http://www.microimages.com/documentation/c...3AfghanGeol.pdf

http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1819
Magmak1
Gates: Fight Afghan War to Deny Qaeda Propaganda Win

# By Adam Rawnsley
# October 5, 2009 |
# 11:16 pm

WASHINGTON, DC — There have been plenty of reasons given for keeping U.S. troops in Afghanistan: denying Al Qaeda and their allies a sanctuary, saving the locals from some rather ruthless theocrats, preventing another 9/11. To that Defense Secretary added a different rationale Monday night. He wants to keep Osama’s legions from scoring a propaganda win.

Speaking alongside Secretary of State Hillary Clinton at a George Washington University forum moderated by CNN’s Christiane Amanpour and GWU professor Frank Sesno, Gates plead agnosticism as to whether al-Qaeda would move its headquarters from Pakistan to Afghanistan but said “what’s more important than that, in my view, is the message that it sends that empowers al Qaeda.”

The Afghanistan-Pakistan border area, Gates said, represents the “modern epicenter of jihad.” A place “where the Mujahedeen defeated the other superpower,” and in his estimation of the Taliban’s thinking, “they now have the opportunity to defeat a second superpower.”

Defining al-Qaeda as both an ideology and an organization, Gates said their ability to successfully “challenge not only the United States, but NATO — 42 nations and so on” on such a symbolically important battlefield would represent “a hugely empowering message” for an organization whose narrative has suffered much in the eight years since 9/11.

That’s an elegant explanation. But with 869 American casualties since the war in Afghanistan began, it’s also a particularly hard sell.

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/10/ga...propaganda-win/

TheRestofUs
As I've said. And as I've heard Hartmann say today. The annual income for the average Afghani is $500.00 a year. Why not pay them a thousand a year to not grow poppies kill the Taliban and Al-Qeada and also fund their schools and infrastructure development? We'd spend less and lose less lives and... why not?

Just my opinion.
Magmak1
William S. Lind
14 September 2009

The Taliban’s air force recently delivered another devastating strike, hitting two fuel tanker trucks that had been captured by local Taliban-affiliated forces in northern Afghanistan. As usual, many civilians were killed, inflaming the local population against NATO forces in an area that had been relatively quiet. The air strike was thus not merely tactical but operational in its effects.

As is always the case with the Taliban’s air force, the air strike was a “pseudo-op.” A pseudo-op is where one side dresses up in the other side’s uniforms or otherwise duplicates his signatures, then does something that works against the goals of the simulated party.

You say you did not know the Taliban had an air force? It has a very powerful air force, not restricted to traditional flying carpets but employing all the latest combat aircraft: F-15s, F-16s, F-18s, Harriers, Tornados, the works. That air force has been one of the main factors in the Taliban’s resurgence. Many of the strike missions it has carried out have had positive results (for the Talibs) at the operational and moral levels, if not always at the tactical and physical levels of war.

What has confused many observers is that the Taliban has taken pseudo-ops to a new level in its air operations. It does not merely paint American or NATO symbols on its aircraft for a specific mission. Its aircraft are permanently disguised, not only with appropriate insignia, but with American or NATO pilots, command and control and maintenance. Across the gulf of war, one has to say the Talibs have been brilliant in the air, if not always in other respects. They have actually managed to get their opponents to provide and pay for the air force that is defeating them!

Pseudo-ops can be difficult to detect. However, close analysis usually reveals a small flaw that, to knowing observers, gives the game away. The flaw in the case of the attack on the two fuel tankers is visible to anyone who knows the NATO mission approval process. For U.S. or other NATO aircraft to launch an air strike in support of European ground forces (German in this case), approvals must be obtained from many levels.

In fact, just one requirement for approval would almost certainly have stopped any genuine NATO airstrike. Everyone in the command chain must know that whenever an accident to a fuel tanker or a pipeline makes free fuel available in a third or Fourth World country, the locals come out with pots and pans and jars to scavenge whatever they can. For most of them, scavenged fuel is the only alternate to no fuel. How often to we read about a leaking pipeline in West Africa killing hundreds of people when it explodes, because it was surrounded by people scavenging fuel?

It is thus impossible that NATO could have launched the strike that destroyed the two fuel tankers, killing dozens of scavenging Afghan civilians in the process. This is the tiny flaw that reveals the Taliban pseudo-op.

The question bedeviling senior NATO and American commanders in Afghanistan is how to stop the Taliban’s air force before it wins the war for Mullah Omar. My sources inform me that serious consideration is being given to assigning U.S. or other NATO fighter CAP to all Taliban operations, with orders to shoot down any aircraft launching strikes that would hit Afghan civilians. Marine Air is reportedly comfortable with the idea, but the U.S. Air Force is resisting strongly for fear of fratricide.

Should that option not prove viable, some senior American officials think it may be necessary simply to end all U.S. and NATO air strike missions in Afghanistan. That would shut down the Taliban’s air force as well, because pseudo-ops would no longer be possible. Any air strikes launched by Taliban aircraft would be attributed to their real source.

Meanwhile, the example set by the Taliban’s pseudo-ops may be spreading. Some reports suggest the Pakistani Taliban (a separate organization) is now employing its own Predators, carrying out “hits” in internal feuds that get blamed on the Americans. The current leadership thus wins a double victory.

Clearly, the aviation pseudo-op genie is now out of the bottle. It will be interesting to see how the American and NATO leadership in Afghanistan try to tempt it back inside.

William S. Lind

[CR Note: Pseudo-ops are a real tactic. The British, for example, used them with success against the Mau Mau insurgency in Kenya.

http://www.d-n-i.net/dni/2009/09/14/on-war...force/#more-859
Magmak1
William S. Lind
22 September 2009

The Washington Post yesterday made available an unclassified version of General Stanley McChrystal’s long-awaited report on the war in Afghanistan. Politically, the report is bold, in that it acknowledges the enemy has the initiative and we have been fighting the war – for eight years – in counterproductive ways. But intellectually, both as analysis and as prescription, it is five pounds of substance in a 50 pound bag.

The report’s message can be summarized in one sentence: we need to start doing classic counterinsurgency, and to do so, we need more “resources,” i.e. troops. In a narrow, technical sense, that statement is valid. Classic counterinsurgency doctrine says we need hundreds of thousands more troops in Afghanistan.

Past that syllogism, the report’s validity becomes questionable. Defects begin with the study’s failure to address Fourth Generation war’s first and most important question: Is there a state in Afghanistan? At times, the report appears to assume a state; elsewhere, it speaks of the Afghan state’s weaknesses. It never addresses the main fact, namely that at present there is no state, and under the current Afghan government there is no prospect of creating one.

The failure to acknowledge the absence of a state leads the rest of the report through the looking glass. For example, it puts great emphasis on expanding the Afghan National Security Forces (army and police). But absent a state, there are no state armed forces. The ANSF are militiamen who take a salary paid, through intermediaries, by foreign governments. How many Pashtun do you find in the ANSF?

Similarly, the report laments that Afghanistan’s prisons have become recruiting centers for the Tailban. It calls for getting the U.S. out of the prison business and turning it all over to the Afghan government. But who will then run those “state” prisons? The Taliban, of course, just as they do now.

In a curious passage, the report says, on page 2-20,

The greater resources (ISAF requires) will not be sufficient to achieve success, but will enable implementation of the new strategy. Conversely, inadequate resources will likely result in failure. However, without a new strategy, the mission should not be resourced.

Here we encounter the report’s most dangerous failing. It confuses the strategic and the operational levels of war. In fact, the report does not offer a new strategy, but a new operational-level plan. How the war is fought, i.e. by following classic counter-insurgency doctrine, is operational, not strategic.

America must find a new strategy, since the current strategy depends on an Afghan state that does not exist. But the report offers no new strategy. The passage on page 2-20 thus ends up saying, “If you don’t give us more troops, we will fail. But you shouldn’t give us more troops unless we adopt a new strategy, which we don’t have. And even if you do give us the troops we want for the new strategy we haven’t got, they will not be enough to achieve success.” This reveals utter intellectual confusion.

The proper response of the White House, the Pentagon, and Congress to General McChrystal’s report is, “Back to the drawing board, fellas.”

How might Fourth Generation theory help us re-write the report? At the operational level, most of what it recommends under the rubric of counterinsurgency is sound. Drawing on the report’s concept of “proper resourcing” that allows for “appropriate and acceptable risk,” we would concentrate our counterinsurgency efforts in a few provinces, such as Helmand, to show the Taliban we can fight it to a stalemate. We would endeavor to do so while gradually drawing troop levels down, not sending in more troops. The goal of these actions on the operational level would be to buy time both in Afghanistan and on the home front.

We would use that time to implement a genuine new strategy. It would proceed from these facts:

* There is no state in Afghanistan, and none can be created by or for the current Afghan government.
* Our strategic goal, as General McChrystal’s report states in its first paragraph, is to prevent al Qaeda’s return to Afghanistan.
* There is currently no evidence of al Qaeda presence in Afghanistan. One of the best open sources of intelligence, Nightwatch, recently stated this directly, and General McChrystal’s report hints at it.

Our strategic goal would be to see the creation of a state in Afghanistan that can and will prevent al Qaeda’s return. Who can do that? The Taliban. We would use the time bought by counterinsurgency operations to negotiate with the Taliban, the Haqqani Network, the Hezb-e Islami Gulbuddin and other Afghan leaders, including some in the current Afghan government, toward a power-sharing arrangement. A government that includes the Taliban can create a state.

The risk is the Taliban’s willingness to keep al Qaeda out. Why should Mullah Omar agree to that? Because al Qaeda no longer needs Afghan bases. It has far more useful ones in Pakistan. That is why it is not in Afghanistan now.

If President Obama and Congress accept General McChrystal’s report and adopt a new operational plan in support of the current strategy, building an Afghan state around the regime now in Kabul, they will guarantee an American defeat. Sending more American troops to Afghanistan will only magnify the defeat. Ironically, what Washington needs to do is follow General McChrystal’s own recommendation and refuse more resources without a new strategy.

Let’s hope the politicians realize this is their last exit before a bottomless quagmire.

William S. Lind

http://www.d-n-i.net/dni/2009/09/22/on-war...efore-quagmire/
Magmak1
William S. Lind
29 September 2009

The headline of the September 23 Washington Post read, “Less Peril for Civilians, but More for Troops.” The theme of the article was that restrictions General Stanley McChrystal has imposed on the use of supporting arms in Afghanistan, with the objective of reducing Afghan civilian casualties, have increased American casualties. The Post reported that since General McChrystal issued his directive on July 2, the number of Afghan civilians killed by coalition forces dropped to 19, from 151 for the same period last year. At the same time, U.S. troop deaths rose from 42 to 96. Not surprisingly, Congress is interested: the Post quotes Senator Susan Collins of Maine as saying, “I am troubled if we are putting our troops at greater risk in order to go to such extremes to avoid Afghan casualties.”

Congress is unlikely to understand what General McChrystal knows very well, namely that firepower-intensive American tactics, especially heavy use of artillery and airstrikes, will lose us the war. For state armed forces, Fourth Generation wars are easy to win tactically and lose strategically. That is, in fact, their normal course.

But what about the question the Post and Congress have raised: are the new restrictions on fire support causing more American casualties in Afghanistan? In a word, yes. But that does not have to be the case.

The problem is that virtually all American infantry are trained in Second Generation tactics. The Second Generation reduces all tactics to one tactic: bump into the enemy and call for fire. The French, who invented the Second Generation, summarize it as, “Firepower conquers, the infantry occupies.” The supporting firepower, originally artillery, now most often airstrikes, must be massive. If it is not – as is now the case in Afghanistan, under General McChrystal’s directive – the infantry is in trouble. Everything it has been taught depends on fire support it no longer has. Inevitably, its casualties will rise, and it will often lose engagements.

Fortunately, the answer to this problem has been known for a long time – several centuries, in fact. It is true light infantry or Jaeger tactics. True light infantry has a broad and varied tactical repertoire. It depends only on its own (modest) firepower. Jaeger tactics were an influence on the development of Third Generation tactics, but Jaeger tactics remain a more sophisticated version of those (infiltration) tactics. They are ideally suited to Fourth Generation wars, especially in mountain country like Afghanistan’s.

If we are to reduce American casualties in the Afghan war while sustaining General McChrystal’s absolutely necessary restrictions on supporting arms, we need a crash program to teach U. S. Army and Marine Corps infantry Jaeger tactics. The Marine Corps, which as usual is somewhat ahead of the game, has began such a program, called “Combat Hunter” (Jaeger is the German word for hunter).

This is not a case where we need to invent anything. The literature on true light infantry tactics is extensive. Works on 18th century light infantry remain instructive; I would recommend Johan Ewald’s diary of the American Revolution (Ewald was a Hessian Jaeger company commander) and J.F.C. Fuller’s British Light Infantry in the 18th Century. More recent works of value include the light infantry field manuals published by the K.u.K. Marine Corps (available here on d.n.i. and on the Marine Corps’ Expeditionary Warfare School website); Dr. Steven Canby’s superb Modern Light Infantry and New Technology (1983 – done under DOD contract); and John Poole’s books. Some of our NATO allies also have Jaeger units from which we could learn.

About twenty years ago, a commander of the Army Infantry School at Ft. Benning, General Burba, attempted to shift the school to teaching light infantry instead of Second Generation tactics. He formed a Light Infantry Task Force, which I visited and which was doing excellent work. The effort died when General Burba left, but some of the officers who participated in it should still be available. The Army could and should find them and their work and put them in charge of an emergency training program.

The Advanced Warfighting Seminar at EWS, which I lead, is continuing to work on this suddenly critical issue. One product in progress is a simple how-to manual showing a company commander how to convert his company to light infantry. Platoon, company and battalion commanders, as well as schools, are welcome to contact the seminar through Major Greg Thiele USMC at gregory.thiele@usmc.mil.

Retraining American infantry in true light infantry tactics is not something that can wait. It is the only escape from the dilemma of loosing troops and engagements for lack of supporting fires or losing the Afghan war by calling those fires in. The usual DOD years-long, hyper-expensive “program” with its cast of thousands (of contractors) is unacceptable. Commanders of platoons, companies, battalions and schools have a moral obligation to do this now, bottom-up, without waiting for approval from Gosplan. Not a moment must be lost.

Note: There will be no On War column for the next two weeks, as I will be in Greater Sweden (Sweden plus the Balticum), first with Mr. Chapman’s Skargardsflottan, then revisiting Operation Albion.

William S. Lind, expressing his own personal opinion, is Director for the Center for Cultural Conservatism for the Free Congress Foundation.

http://www.d-n-i.net/dni/2009/09/29/on-war...infantry-alive/
tazvil04
I think this column offers a good analysis of the decision which needs to be made in Afghanistan...and I know many of us here come out on either side of this equation...

October 4, 2009
The Distance Between ‘We Must’ and ‘We Can’
By JAMES TRAUB
NEW YORK TIMES
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/04/weekinre...agewanted=print

Over the next few weeks, Barack Obama must make the most difficult decision of his presidency to date: whether or not to send up to 40,000 more troops to Afghanistan, as his commanding general there, Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal, has reportedly proposed.

This summer, Mr. Obama described the effort in Afghanistan as “a war of necessity.” In such a war, you do whatever you need to do to win. But now, as criticism mounts from those who argue that the war in Afghanistan cannot, in fact, be won with more troops and a better strategy, the president is having second thoughts.

A war of necessity is presumably one that is “fundamental to the defense of our people,” as Mr. Obama has said about Afghanistan. But if such a war is unwinnable, then perhaps you must reconsider your sense of its necessity and choose a more modest policy instead.

The conservative pundit George Will suggested as much in a recent column in which he argued for a reduced, rather than enhanced, American presence in Afghanistan. Mr. Will cited the testimony of George Kennan, the diplomat and scholar, to a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing on Vietnam in 1966: “Our country should not be asked, and should not ask of itself, to shoulder the main burden of determining the political realities in any other country. ... This is not only not our business, but I don’t think we can do it successfully.”

Mr. Kennan’s astringent counsel has become piercingly relevant today, as Americans discover, time and again, their inability to shape the world as they would wish. Indeed, George W. Bush’s tenure looks in retrospect like an inadvertent proof of the wisdom of restraint, for his ambitious policy to transform the Middle East through regime change and democracy promotion largely ended in failure. The irony is that Mr. Obama, who as a candidate reassured conservative critics that he had read and absorbed the wisdom of Reinhold Niebuhr, Mr. Kennan and other “realists,” is now himself accused of ignoring the limits of American power, like Mr. Bush or Lyndon Johnson, in his pursuit of victory in an unwinnable war.

The idea that American foreign policy must be founded upon a prudent recognition of the country’s capacities and limits, rather than its hopes and wishes, gained currency after World War II, possibly the last unequivocally necessary war in American history. At the war’s end, of course, the global pre-eminence of the United States was beyond question. But Mr. Kennan, Mr. Niebuhr, Hans Morgenthau and others tried to imbue their sometimes-grandiose fellow-citizens with a rueful awareness of the intransigence of things.

“The problems of this world are deeper, more involved, and more stubborn than many of us realize,” Mr. Kennan said in a 1949 speech to the Academy of Political Science. “It is imperative, therefore, that we economize with our limited resources and that we apply them where we feel that we will do the most good.”

The realists won that debate. Mr. Kennan argued that a policy of confrontation with Stalin’s Russia, advocated by the more fervent anti-Communists, would be neither effective nor necessary; the Soviets, rather, could be checked by “intelligent long-range policies” designed to counter — to contain — their ambitions. Of course he lost in Vietnam, where the nation-building dreams of a generation of cold war liberals came to grief. The neoconservatives who came to power with George W. Bush were just as dismissive of the cautionary sprit of realism as the liberals of an earlier generation had been, and thought of themselves as conservative heirs of the idealistic tradition of Woodrow Wilson.

Now, as Americans debate whether or not to double down in Afghanistan, it’s striking how opinion is divided not according to left and right, or hawk and dove, but rather by the difference between the Wilsonian “what we must do” and the Kennanite “what we can do.”

Stephen Holmes, a left-leaning law professor at New York University, recently wrote a critique of General McChrystal’s plan that almost exactly echoed Will/Kennan: “Turning an illegitimate government into a legitimate one is simply beyond the capacities of foreigners, however wealthy or militarily unmatched.”

Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr., a hawkish Democrat, has reportedly urged the president to devote less of the country’s energies to Afghanistan in order to apply them where they will do the most good — Pakistan. On the other hand, advocates of the proposed new strategy, like Peter Bergen, an expert on Islamic terrorism, invoke America’s “obligation” to the Afghan people and the strategic catastrophe that would come of ceding the country to the Taliban. One side reasons from the means, the other from the ends.

In the real world, of course, the distinction between these two very different dispositions is a fluid one. After all, in a true war of necessity, like World War II, a state and a people summon the capacity to do what must be done, no matter how difficult. So the objective question at the heart of the current debate is whether the battle for Afghanistan represents such a war, or whether — like those for Vietnam or Iraq — the problem that it presents can be solved by less bloody and costly means.

Americans broadly agree that their government must at all costs prevent major attacks on American soil by Al Qaeda. But there the consensus ends, and their questions begin: Do we need to sustain the rickety Afghan government of President Hamid Karzai in order to achieve that objective? If so, will a combination of overwhelming military force and an accompanying civilian surge not only repel the Taliban but make Afghanistan self-sustaining over the long term?

The leaked McChrystal plan argues both that we must and that we can, and that a more modest effort “will likely result in failure.” Critics like the military analyst Andrew Bacevich insist, by contrast, that we cannot and that we need not — that Americans can contain the threat of jihad through such measures as enhanced homeland defense. Others have argued for a middle course involving a smaller troop increase and less nation-building.

George Kennan was right about the cold war. But the question now is whether “containment” is also the right metaphor for Afghanistan, and for the threat of Islamic extremism. Containment (Mr. Kennan also used the imagery of chess and the pruning and pinning of trees) is a metaphor of geographical contiguity. Soviet ambitions could be checked here, conceded there. America’s adversary was not, Mr. Kennan insisted, a global force called Communism; it was Russia, an expansionist but conservative power. By that logic, the United States could lose in Vietnam with no lasting harm to itself.

But Al Qaeda, and jihadism generally, is a global force that seeks control of territory chiefly as a means to carry out its global strategy. It has no borders at which to be checked; its success or failure is measured in ideological rather than territorial terms — like Communism without Russia. Mr. Kennan often suggested that America’s own example of democratic prosperity was one of its most powerful weapons during the cold war; and plainly that is so today as well. That is one weapon with which the threat of Islamic extremism must be challenged; but it is only one.

The question boils down to this: How grave a price would Americans pay if Afghanistan were lost to the Taliban? Would this be a disaster, or merely, as with Vietnam, a terrible misfortune for which the United States could compensate through a contemporary version of Mr. Kennan’s “intelligent long-range policies”? If the latter, then how can Americans justify the immense cost in money and manpower, and the inevitable loss of life, attendant upon General McChrystal’s plan? How can they gamble so much on the corrupt, enfeebled and barely legitimate government of President Karzai? Why insist on seeking to do that which in all probability can not be done?

But what if it’s the former? What if the fall of Kabul would constitute not only an American abandonment of the Afghan people, but a major strategic and psychological triumph for Al Qaeda, and a recruiting tool of unparalleled value? Then the Kennanite calculus would no longer apply, and the fact that nobody can be completely confident that General McChrystal’s counterinsurgency strategy will work would not be reason enough to forsake it.

In that case — and perhaps only in that case — Afghanistan really would be a war of necessity.

tazvil04
Here are ten recommendations for improving the prospects for security and democracy in Afghanistan...

There is of course no guarantee that they would work...but when dealing in foreign policy there is never a guarantee anything will work...

October 4, 2009
Op-Ed Contributors
10 Steps to Victory in Afghanistan
NEW YORK TIMES
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/04/opinion/04afghanistan.html

Reform or Go Home

COUNTERINSURGENCY is only as good as the government it supports. NATO could do everything right — it isn’t — but will still fail unless Afghans trust their government. Without essential reform, merely making the government more efficient or extending its reach will just make things worse.

Only a legitimately elected Afghan president can enact reforms, so at the very least we need to see a genuine run-off election or an emergency national council, called a loya jirga, before winter. Once a legitimate president emerges, we need to see immediate action from him on a publicly announced reform program, developed in consultation with Afghan society and enforced by international monitors. Reforms should include firing human rights abusers and drug traffickers, establishing an independent authority to investigate citizen complaints and requiring officials to live in the districts they are responsible for (fewer than half do).

Other steps might include a census and district-level elections (promised since 2001, but never held), fair and effective taxation to replace kickbacks and extortion, increased pay to diligent local officials, the transfer of more budgetary authority to the provinces and the creation of local courts for dispute resolution.

If we see no genuine progress on such steps toward government responsibility, the United States should “Afghanize,” draw down troops and prepare to mitigate the inevitable humanitarian disaster that will come when the Kabul government falls to the Taliban — which, in the absence of reform, it eventually and deservedly will.

— DAVID KILCULLEN, a former adviser to Gen. David Petraeus and the author of “The Accidental Guerrilla: Fighting Small Wars in the Midst of a Big One”





End Suicide Attacks

TO win in Afghanistan, the United States and its allies must prevent the rise of a new generation of anti-American terrorists, particularly suicide terrorists.

The metric for measuring this threat is not the amount of territory controlled by the Taliban or Al Qaeda, but the number of people willing to be recruited as suicide terrorists. These individuals are motivated not by the existence of a terrorist sanctuary, but by deep anger at the presence of foreign forces on land they prize.

This is why the number of suicide attacks in Afghanistan, overwhelmingly against military targets, has skyrocketed as United States and NATO forces have increasingly occupied the country from 2006 on. There were nine attacks in 2005, 97 in 2006, 142 in 2007, 148 in 2008 and more than 60 in the first six months of this year.

It is imperative to decrease the number of suicide attacks. Given the ethnic divisions of the country, our best tactic is to use political and economic means to empower local Pashtuns to feel that they have greater autonomy from both Taliban and Western domination, and less need to respond violently.

A similar strategy toward Sunni groups in Anbar Province reduced anti-American suicide terrorism in Iraq and is our best way forward in Afghanistan.

— ROBERT A. PAPE, a professor of political science at the University of Chicago and the author of “Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism”





If You Can’t Beat Them, Let Them Join

WITHIN a year, we must persuade large numbers of insurgents to lay down their arms or switch to the government’s side. Afghanistan’s doughty warriors have a tradition of changing alliances, but success will require both military operations focused on the insurgent leadership and, even more important, incentives for fighters at the local level.

Mid-level insurgents and their followers should be offered a chance to join a revised version of the Afghan Public Protection Force. These local self-defense forces should be expanded and tied to legitimate local governing structures — both official and tribal. The majority of development funds should be funneled to leaders to strengthen local governance and development and pay the militias’ salaries.

Local self-defense forces in Colombia, Peru, South Vietnam and, most recently, Iraq, have proved very successful. The creation of a viable force like this is the single most important benchmark for the counterinsurgency effort in Afghanistan.

— LINDA ROBINSON, the author of “Tell Me How This Ends: Gen. David Petraeus and the Search for a Way Out of Iraq”





Pump Up the Police

FOR all the disputes over strategy, virtually everyone agrees that we need to strengthen the Afghan security forces, make them true partners and put them in the lead. Afghans want lasting security, and they want it to have an Afghan face.

Gen. Stanley McChrystal, the top American commander there, wisely wants to double the size of the Afghan Army and increase the police forces to 160,000 men. This requires not just money, but also a commitment to send more trainers, embedded advisers and partner units. At the moment, international forces in Afghanistan say they still lack about 30 percent of the trainers and mentors needed to train even the current police force.

Creating effective security forces will also require more aid to create a functioning local justice system with courts, lawyers and jails. This will take at least a decade, so for the short term we should assist efforts to revive Afghanistan’s traditional justice systems.

— ANTHONY CORDESMAN, a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies





Kick Out Corruption

TO defeat the insurgency, the Afghan government and its main partner, the United States, need to win the confidence of the public. Accountability must replace the widespread immunity enjoyed by officials who abuse their power.

Despite all the problems with our recent election, the incoming government will have a chance to start fresh, and a proper vetting of all new officials is the place to begin. This means establishing strict accountability mechanisms for high officials in the districts and provinces as well as in the ministries and directorates in Kabul. Simply shuffling abusive and incompetent officials among offices — as has been the norm over the past eight years — keeps the public from getting the governmental services it needs.

While the corruption in Kabul is well known, the alliances that American and other foreign forces have made at the local level with abusive officials and influential figures have emboldened those Afghans and alarmed the Afghan public. These alliances must be examined and stopped. The next government should make a statement by quickly clearing out some of the most blatantly corrupt officials.

— NADER NADERY, a commissioner on the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission





Learn to Tax From the Taliban

SKEPTICS of state-building proposals question whether the Kabul government — now almost fully dependent on foreign aid — will ever be able to support the military and police forces being trained. Yet there has been comparatively little investment by the international community in helping Kabul collect taxes, even though insurgents and corrupt officials have proved it can be done.

In addition to collecting taxes from the illegal opium trade, Taliban forces extort money from trucks carrying legal cargo through their territories and demand “protection fees” from local businesses, even hitting up construction projects financed by NATO.

Government officials also take illegal kickbacks — one governor in the eastern part of the country is reported to earn as much as $10 million a month extorting trucking firms. But this money doesn’t end up in state coffers — it just lines the governor’s deep pockets.

The “civilian surge” should include tax experts who could help federal and provincial officials develop mechanisms for collecting revenue — and make sure that money ends up where it belongs.

— GRETCHEN PETERS, the author of “Seeds of Terror”






Polls Have the Power

BY and large, my generation of military professionals trained for and thought about what we might call “Type A” war — modern war, featuring the clash of mechanized forces fielded by industrial states. Happily, we never had to fight the Soviets on the northern German plain, though Operation Desert Storm showed we might have been pretty good at it, had the balloon gone up.

In Afghanistan we’re fighting a “Type B” war that is in some of its essentials “postmodern.” Like postmodernism itself, the concept has a variety of meanings and may not represent a coherent set of ideas. But one thing is clear: the Type B enemy likely has little to lose — no territory to protect, few important targets at risk, perhaps even no life worth living. Thus the Type A objective of fatally weakening an opponent by destroying assets important to his success — in theory, a measurable process — is replaced in Type B war by the much more complicated, essentially unquantifiable task of defeating him.

In time, democracies tire of war, as well they should. Thus, the single most important factor a Type B enemy counts on is time. The outcome in Afghanistan may be determined already, simply because we’ve been there for eight years. The strategic center of gravity is American public opinion, which will tell us when we’ve run out of time. If you want to know how we are doing in Afghanistan, read the polls in America.

— MERRILL McPEAK, the chief of staff of the Air Force from 1990 to 1994





Take a Risk

WHILE in Afghanistan last summer as part of Gen. Stanley McChrystal’s initial assessment team, I found many American and other international units more focused on protecting themselves than protecting the Afghan population. Traveling through the allegedly secure city of Mazar-i-Sharif with a German unit, for example, was like touring Afghanistan by submarine. What little I saw of the city was through a small slit of bulletproof glass in an armored personnel carrier. (While I was a light-infantry officer in both the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, I had never before traveled in an armored personnel carrier.) The Germans offered their assessment of security in the region, but since they lack regular face-to-face contact with the people living there, why should I trust their analysis? Can they speak with authority on the degree to which an insurgent campaign of intimidation is having an effect when they themselves keep the Afghans at such a distance?

It’s not just the Germans, though. Some American and other allied commanders also insist on protective measures that hamper troops from interacting with the population and gathering information on what is driving the conflict at the local level.

After eight years of war with little to show for American and allied efforts, many Americans have tired of the campaign in Afghanistan and are wary of putting our soldiers in greater danger. But if we are to be successful in Afghanistan, it is a risk we must take.

— ANDREW McDONALD EXUM, a fellow at the Center for a New American Security





Don’t Believe That We Can Afford to Lose

AMERICA cannot achieve even the minimal objective of preventing Al Qaeda from re-establishing safe havens in Afghanistan without a substantial increase in forces over the coming year. The Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan’s south is growing. The Afghan and international forces there now cannot reverse that growth. They may not even be able to stem it. That is the assessment of the top American commander there, Gen. Stanley McChrystal.

President Obama said in August, “If left unchecked, the Taliban insurgency will mean an even larger safe haven from which Al Qaeda would plot to kill more Americans.” Some of his advisers now say the opposite: Taliban control will not lead to terrorist havens. Why not? Osama bin Laden first built camps in the territory of a Taliban leader, Jalaluddin Haqqani, in the mid-1980s. Relations between Al Qaeda and the Taliban remain close. Even if they do not invite Al Qaeda in, could they, unlike Pakistan, keep Al Qaeda out? The president was right: the triumph of the Taliban will benefit Al Qaeda.

Rejecting General McChrystal’s request for more forces leaves two options. The United States withdraws and lets Afghanistan again collapse into chaos, or it keeps its military forces and civilians in harm’s way while denying them the resources they need to succeed. Neither is acceptable.

— FREDERICK KAGAN, a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, and KIMBERLY KAGAN, the president of the Institute for the Study of War





Pakistani Patronage

THE government of Pakistan, through its intelligence agency, has long been a patron of the Afghan Taliban, and Gen. Stanley McChrystal recently warned that the collaboration continues. Pakistan sees the relationship as a way of hedging its bets in Afghanistan, an asset in its confrontation with India.

It is difficult to define a clear benchmark for ending that aid because the Pakistanis refuse to acknowledge that any relationship exists. But let us consider it to have ended or gone into remission if, a year from now, six consecutive months have gone by with no credible reporting of the sort that underlay the general’s observation.

The significance of this benchmark is threefold. First, Pakistani patronage is an impediment to subduing the Taliban. Second, it is an excellent gauge of how well or poorly NATO’s campaign in Afghanistan is going. Continued Pakistani dealing with the Taliban would reflect Islamabad’s judgment that it is going poorly enough that bets still must be hedged. Third, an end to the relationship would eliminate one of the biggest paradoxes in the rationale for the counterinsurgency: the Pakistani government that our efforts in Afghanistan are supposedly helping to save is assisting the forces from which we are trying to save it.

— PAUL R. PILLAR, a former national intelligence officer for the Near East and South Asia at the C.I.A. and a professor in Georgetown University’s Security Studies Program


tazvil04
I think this is another idea whose time has come...

October 2, 2009
Op-Ed Contributors
Putting the ‘I’ in Aid
By PETER BERGEN and SAMEER LALWANI
Washington
NEW YORL TIMES

THE top American commander in Afghanistan, Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal, is right to warn that efforts to rebuild that country depend on winning the “struggle to gain the support of the people.” And few issues do more to stoke the resentment of ordinary Afghans than the tens of billions of dollars of foreign aid from which they have seen little or no benefit. They see legions of Westerners sitting in the backs of S.U.V.’s clogging the streets of Kabul and ask themselves what exactly those foreigners have done to improve their daily lives.

Eight years after the fall of the Taliban, Afghanistan remains one of the poorest countries in the world. And by some estimates 40 percent of international aid leaves the Afghan economy as quickly as it comes in — going to pay Western security contractors, maintain back offices in the West and pay Western-style salaries, benefits and vacations — while as little as 20 percent of that aid reaches its intended recipients. Compounding this problem, the salaries of imported civilian workers are orders of magnitude higher than those of their Afghan peers. Some employees of the United States Agency for International Development, for instance, earn more than 300 times the monthly pay of an Afghan teacher.

Yes, when it comes to large-scale projects like building roads and hospitals, Western contractors have to take the lead because Afghan companies are years away from having enough experience. But there is a way for the Afghan government to recoup some of the billions of dollars of aid flowing to those contractors and being recycled back to the West: tax it.

Foreign contractors and corporations working in Afghanistan do not pay income taxes there; and if they do pay taxes at all, it is to their home governments. America and its European allies could easily give up claims on taxes from their citizens working in Afghanistan and instead condition contracts so that the workers and the companies that employ them pay Afghan taxes. The loss in tax revenue suffered by Western countries would be trivial compared to the good will this would engender among Afghans. Right now the government’s tax revenues total a paltry $300 million. Taxing foreign technical assistance alone — an estimated $1.6 billion annually — could double this revenue.

And this would require little sacrifice from the 70,000 or so foreigners working in Afghanistan. Afghan taxes are quite low, with the highest bracket set at 20 percent, while technical advisers from Western development agencies can earn $9,000 to $22,000 per month and private contractors can earn even more. With Western unemployment rates high, it is unlikely that having to pay a relatively paltry amount of tax to Afghanistan would deter contractors or corporations from taking on lucrative work there.

The money isn’t the only issue: because it is dependent on foreign aid for about 90 percent of its budget, Afghanistan is fiscally and politically unaccountable to its people. The government needs to build a taxation bureaucracy or it will never develop many of the abilities critical to governance, like budgeting and allocating resources. Since the taxable Afghan population is now tiny — most citizens are either desperately poor or operate within the large black market economy — the quickest path to developing a working revenue system is by taxing the foreign workers and companies.

New tax revenues from foreign contractors should be used, above all, to pay down a substantial portion of the cost of building up the Afghan National Army, which is $1 billion to $2 billion annually. Foreign contractors have a vested interest in helping the army develop, as it will eventually provide the security that will allow them to continue enjoying their lucrative contracts after Western forces eventually withdraw.

While they face risks, contractors in Afghanistan are also faring quite well financially. It’s time they returned some of that wealth to the Afghan people.

Peter Bergen is a senior fellow at the New America Foundation. Sameer Lalwani is a research fellow there.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/02/opinion/...agewanted=print
tazvil04
McChrystal’s War
Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal believes he can win in Afghanistan. It's the rest of the world that needs convincing.
By Evan Thomas | NEWSWEEK

Published Sep 26, 2009

From the magazine issue dated Oct 5, 2009

In Kabul, the entrance to the headquarters of the International Security Assistance Force—the coalition of NATO and U.S. forces in Afghanistan—is easy to miss. Ever since the Taliban blew up the main gate a month ago, visitors have been required to pass through a small metal door and down winding, dingy passageways topped with barbed wire. Inside the ISAF compound, grimy trailers, used to provide office space, are stacked up around a seedy, once grand building that was long ago a social club for officers of the British Empire. There was a bar, but a couple of weeks ago, Gen. Stanley McChrystal outlawed alcohol on the base, and he has indicated that he wants to turn a small, pretty garden, a tiny oasis of green, into a rifle range.

McChrystal, 55, is a purebred warrior, the son of a two-star general, West Point class of '76, a former commander of the elite Rangers Regiment, and, from 2003 to 2008, the head of hunter-killer black ops in Special Operations. He eats one meal a day, works out obsessively every morning at 5, and is so free of body fat that he looks gaunt. Lately, as commander of the war in Afghanistan, he has become a kind of Zen warrior, preaching that often "the shot you don't fire is more important than the one you do." He is a student of what he calls "counterinsurgency math." If you encounter 10 Taliban members and kill two, he says, you don't have eight remaining enemies. You have more like 20: the friends and relatives of the two you killed.

McChrystal reinforces his sermon early every morning in a dreary, windowless bunker at a meeting called the CUA (pronounced koo-ah), for commander's update assessment. He sits in the back row of five tiers of computer modules, facing giant video screens streaming with data and statistics. One day last week, when a briefer informed him that two Taliban had been killed the day before by soldiers using a multiple-rocket launcher, McChrystal dryly noted, "That's an awful lot of firepower to kill two people." He used gentle humor to chide an officer who presented a convoluted diagram full of boxes and arrows to illustrate counterinsurgency in Kandahar. "The day we can explain that, we've won," the general observed.

McChrystal has a disarming, low-key style, free of the bombast and sense of entitlement that can come with four stars. He is polite and gracious, if direct, and he can be funny. At the end of the CUA, an officer brought up the spate of articles appearing in the American press suggesting that McChrystal's request for more troops in Afghanistan was being seriously questioned by policymakers in Washington, including President Obama. McChrystal had sent his chiefs in the Pentagon a secret assessment of the situation in Afghanistan, which he described as "deteriorating" and headed for "failure" unless the Americans sent more troops. The 66-page document had been leaked to Bob Woodward of The Washington Post, setting off a buzz of critical stories in the media. Hawks seized on the report to argue that Obama was going all wobbly, while critics of the war suggested the military was dragging him toward another Vietnam. The controversy caused evident anxiety among McChrystal's commanders at the morning briefing. The officer asked if General McChrystal was feeling the pressure. "I am," McChrystal allowed, and deadpanned, "Money would make me feel better." There were a few laughs as his legal adviser, Col. Rich Gross, gave the general a dollar, but the joke fell a little flat. McChrystal's people want to believe in him, and they want to believe in their mission; they do not want to see McChrystal's judgment questioned—and certainly not his integrity.

At the morning briefing, McChrystal tried to make light of stories in the press quoting Secretary of State Hillary Clinton as saying McChrystal's call for more troops was just one opinion among military experts. "She's absolutely right," said McChrystal to his lieutenants. "There are other experts and they're smarter than me," though, he quipped, "not in this room." The jokes were uncharacteristically lame, as if he was struggling to put a bright face on bad news. Later that evening, eating his one meal of the day (salmon salad, chick-en, strawberry shortcake), McChrystal was clearly troubled—"a bit bothered," as he put it—by the rumors appearing in the media that he might resign over his differences with those unnamed other experts in Washington. "It is my responsibility, my duty—my sacred duty," he said, to tell the unvarnished truth to his leaders, but then to carry out their orders. He would not resign, he said, even if they rejected his advice.

Duty, that most noble of military virtues, is a deceptively simple notion. "Duty, Honor, Country" is the motto of the U.S. Military Academy. But what if duty to your troops conflicts with duty to your political leaders? What then is the honorable thing to do for your country? McChrystal would not acknowledge that there might be a conflict. But virtually everything he said to me over the course of an hour last week suggested that he believes he cannot carry out his mission in Afghanistan without more troops. He would not say how many he is asking for in a still-secret document, but knowledgeable military officials who would not be quoted discussing classified information say the number is about 40,000. Maybe McChrystal will salute smartly if he is ordered to make do with fewer. He has great political skills; he couldn't have risen to his current position without them. But he definitely does not see himself as the sort of military man who would compromise his principles to do the politically convenient thing. At the very least, when he is called back to Washington to support his assessment and recommendation, he will make a strong public case that only an all-out campaign of counterinsurgency against the Taliban will accomplish his assigned mission—to make sure that terrorists do not use Afghanistan as a base for terrorist operations against the United States.

McChrystal has led a charmed life until now, in part because his leadership skills have been obvious and recognized. His inspiration was his father, a Korean and Vietnam War combat vet who was, according to his son, the "non-Great Santini"—soft-spoken, never a bully. "I never, ever saw him do the wrong thing in my whole life," says McChrystal. "I never saw him say, 'With a wink and a nod we can get around this.' "

At West Point, the younger McChrystal was "a troublemaker," he recalls. He often violated the drinking ban and got caught at it, walking hundreds of hours of punishment drills, pacing up and down a stone courtyard in full-dress uniform, carrying a rifle. As a senior, McChrystal organized a mock infantry attack on a school building, using real guns and rolled-up socks as grenades, and was nearly shot by the military police guarding the building. But his classmates compared him to the Cooler King, the charismatic renegade played by Steve McQueen in The Great Escape. His tactical officer at West Point made him a battalion commander, one of only a dozen on campus.

He became a Green Beret, a Ranger, and an assistant division commander in the 82nd Airborne. Twice he was taken aside by senior officers and told that he needed to get a certain staff or desk job to advance his career, but he declined in order to stay in the field. Curiously for such a warrior, he did not see combat in his early Army years. "I missed Panama and Grenada, and it bothered me. You always wonder how you'll do," he says. Rising to become a Special Operations commander after 9/11, he finally did go on combat operations, though, he says, "I've never shot anyone." Still, he has been a very effective killer. When he was head of the Joint Special Operations Command in Afghanistan and Iraq, from 2003 to 2008, McChrystal's black-ops teams hunted high-value targets (HVTs), eliminating some notorious ones like Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi, the ruthless head of Al Qaeda in Iraq.

Along the way, "I became kind of an ascetic," says McChrystal. "I got fat as a lieutenant, so I started jogging and eating one meal a day, and it just worked for me." His wife, Annie, whom he married out of West Point and with whom he has a son (who chose not to become a soldier), scoffs at the suggestion that her husband is some sort of spiritual samurai, and says he just doesn't like the drowsy feeling he gets after eating a big meal. She also laughs about the fact that he has seen the raunchy NASCAR spoof Talladega Nights so many times, he can recite the lines (he can do the same for Monty Python and the Holy Grail).

Nonetheless, others say that Mc-Chrystal is like an ancient warrior-scholar, constantly reading history, pondering the mysteries of human nature. He studied for a year at Harvard in the 1990s and took a fellowship at the Council on Foreign Relations, running to work every day from his home in Brooklyn, N.Y., a dozen miles away. He was known at both elite institutions for his humility. "He's not a Petraeus," says Parag Khanna, who shared an office at the CFR. "He's not a publicity seeker." Reading about the struggles for national liberation in Indochina from the 1950s through the Vietnam War, McChrystal became fascinated by the challenges of counterinsurgency. He learned that putting down a guerrilla movement was impossible without winning the support of the local population. His convictions were reinforced by his experience running black ops in Iraq and Afghanistan. Counterter-ror operations—hunting down HVTs—went hand in hand with effective counterinsurgency, with winning over the local population. Indeed, he came to believe, "you can't have one without the other." To successfully find and kill terrorists requires the intelligence and cooperation that only the locals can provide. McChrystal already had this mindset before Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, pushed him forward to replace Gen. David McKiernan as head of Coalition forces in Afghanistan. It was one of the rare occasions when a theater-of-war commander has been removed. (Truman's dismissal of General MacArthur during the Korean War is another.) The Pentagon was trying to send a message. In the view of Mullen and Defense Secretary Robert Gates, McKiernan had spent too much time trying to coax along the squabbling and sometimes inert NATO force commanders, and he didn't have the necessary background to implement a new counterinsurgency strategy.

Mullen and Gates found the right man to shake things up. Arriving in Kabul last June, McChrystal announced that there were two types of people at his headquarters: "Martyrs and people that are going home." The general's audiences sometimes don't know if he is being serious or kidding. "People who don't know me sometimes don't laugh," he says. "Others laugh nervously. People who do know me laugh, but they also know it's true." (McChrystal's deeply loyal staffers like to joke that they've "climbed aboard the pain train.")

McChrystal immediately decreed that the ISAF troops were going to learn how to get along with the local population. It took less than a week for him to start to make his point. He was part of a convoy blasting through city streets at 60mph when the speed limit was 20mph. The soldiers were driving heavily armored vehicles right down the middle of the road, pointing their weapons at civilian vehicles, forcing them to the side. When the convoy stopped, McChrystal took aside the commander and dressed him down. "This is exactly the way you create the ugly ISAF," he said in a low but cold tone. He issued a directive: from then on, all ISAF forces would obey local driving laws. (More difficult, he tried to set an example by not wearing body armor. "The Afghans don't wear body armor," he would say, but he ran into grumbling and resistance.)

There is a strong emphasis in the military on what is called "force protection." Many officers believe their first priority is to bring their troops home safely. To that end, American soldiers gear up in helmets and bulletproof vests and ride in massive armored vehicles. "It was like we were going through Afghanistan in a submarine," sighs McChrystal. He wants his troops to get out in the field, away from the comfy forward operating bases and into the street. In past wars, there was a term called REMF, for "rear-echelon motherf--ker." The new term of derision is FOBBIT, for those who never leave their forward-operating base. To cut down what McChrystal calls "the recreational attitude," he has been methodically closing down the concessions that sprout up on American bases—Pizza Hut, Burger King, Baskin-Robbins. "We don't need 31 flavors to fight a war," said a McChrystal aide who did not wish to be identified, but observed that when he was based at Camp Victory in Iraq early in the war there, it was possible to shop for 39 varieties of flat-screen TVs.

If lazing about on a couch is classically American, so is aggressively attacking the enemy. "It's not the American way to back down from a fight," says Lt. Gen. Frank Kearney, deputy commander of Special Operations and a friend and classmate of McChrystal's. Traditionally, the "American way of war" has been to overwhelm the enemy with superior firepower. McChrystal has been after his junior officers and soldiers to think twice before they shoot. "Is it worth killing that insurgent if you might also kill a family in the compound? Probably not," he says. When he first arrived, he asked, "Why do we even have 2,000-pound bombs? Afghanistan doesn't have big-enough targets for them." He issued another directive instructing troops not to call in airstrikes or supporting fire unless necessary for self-defense. This order has cut down on civilian casualties, probably the biggest obstacle to winning the trust of the Afghans.

Young American soldiers who a few years ago might have sought combat as a macho way to "get some" are learning self-restraint. But McChrystal also has to deal with the opposite problem—allied forces whose national leaders basically want them to stay out of the fight. The Germans do not fight at night, and the Canadians have pulled back from combat in recent months. McChrystal has no power to order them into battle.

A month ago, the Germans called in an airstrike on two hijacked fuel trucks. Perhaps 90 people died in the fireball, maybe a third of them civilian. McChrystal immediately went on the local airwaves to apologize, antagonizing the Germans, who initially proclaimed no civilian casualties. He further irritated the Germans by shutting down the bar at ISAF headquarters. McChrystal last week jetted off to Europe to stroke allies, some of whom refuse to use the word "war," preferring "armed humanitarian conflict."

The general's real diplomatic challenge is at home in Washington. He was taken aback last week by the flap over the leak of his assessment of the Afghanistan war. "It's sort of like, 'Why is this happening to me now?' " says his executive officer and old friend, Col. Charles Flynn. McChrystal was palpably uncomfortable with the suggestion that Obama was having second thoughts about the whole counter-insurgency strategy in Afghanistan. The general, who admires Obama, has met him only three times, and has never really had the chance to discuss the war with the president in any depth. If asked back to Washington, McChrystal says, he would welcome the opportunity to make his case for more troops. ("General McChrystal knows this is not the appropriate time for him to come back to speak to Congress," says Geoff Morrell, a spokesman for the secretary of defense. "He knows his views are well represented in Washington.") McChrystal's aides point out that if Obama does approve the additional troops, it will still take months to get them into the theater—while the war continues to go downhill.

The general is trying to put the best face on the stories of dissent bubbling up in Washington. "The debate is healthy. The worst thing would be no debate," he says. He is aware that there is a move on, reportedly emanating from the office of Vice President Joe Biden, to give up on nation building in Afghanistan and just go after the terrorists in their lairs. Or, maybe just trying to bring security to Kabul and a few provinces, and leave the rest to the Taliban. With some effort, McChrystal tries to be open-minded about his critics. "Maybe they're right," he says.

But it's obvious he thinks they're wrong. He uses the analogy of a burning building: "You can't hope to contain the fire by letting just half the building burn." His chief of intelligence, Gen. Mike Flynn, says flatly, "Civil war would immediately break out. You'd have a failed state, like Somalia, only much harder to get to."

The enormity of the challenge facing McChrystal and his team becomes clear from attending their morning CUA. Reams of data stream across the video screens, but what does it really mean? ISAF is building more power generators, but what good does it do when the power is stolen or cut off—which in a thoroughly corrupt, broken country, routinely happens? McChrystal has a bright staff, but they're smart enough to know what they don't know. Cmdr. Jeff Eggers—a Navy SEAL with an Oxford degree who was the chief drafter of McChrystal's assessment—notes, for instance, that it would be useful to know who usually shoots first in a fire fight with the Taliban. Often the side that takes the initiative has better intelligence. The problem is "we don't know who shoots first. We can't tell," says Eggers. He blames the conflicting reports on the fog of war.

McChrystal is so sincere, well informed, and impassioned that he will make a good case for getting more troops if and when he is ever summoned to Washington. But he has a natural bias toward assertive action, not retreat. What if Obama says no to more troops, or does not approve enough troops? "I'll do the best I can," McChrystal says. "He's not the type to resign to make some kind of political statement," says his friend General Kearney.

On McChrystal's shelf is a novel called Once an Eagle by Anton Myrer. The book, which pits a noble warrior named Sam Damon against a conniving careerist named Courtney Massengale, has a cult following in the military. "I've read it about six times," says McChrystal. He is "flattered" to be compared to the Damon character, as he often is by his admiring staff. But he adds that the book is actually complex, and that the Damon hero is a "bit too rigid," while the villain Massengale is "brilliant when he wants to be." McChrystal has an appealing earnestness and openness (he doesn't hesitate to tick off his flaws: "I'm impatient, I shoot from the hip, I ride my staff too hard…"), but one senses a certain wiliness as well. There are many ways to be a good soldier, and McChrystal wants to be them all.

With John Barry and Suzanne Smalley in Washington

Find this article at
http://www.newsweek.com/id/216237

rla
Either the Foreign Policy "Realist" or the Foreign Policy "Idealist" will keep the country at war for ever...they
will just use different ways of rationalizing doing so...It is people like Andrew Bacevich that we need to listen to...
tazvil04
Know Thy Enemy. And Then Defeat Him.
By Jon Meacham | NEWSWEEK

Published Sep 26, 2009

From the magazine issue dated Oct 5, 2009

For several weeks now—beginning in the last days of August—people inside the Obama administration, the military, and the diplomatic community have been unusually unanimous on the subject of Afghanistan. Their refrain: we do not know what is going to happen; no one knows what is going to happen. Then they pause, and, in case we missed the point, say: we do not know what is going to happen.

This is at once unsettling and reassuring. One would like to think that the leaders of the nation have the course and conduct of an eight-year war well in hand, and it is clear that they do not. But it is also clear—and this is the reassuring part—that the president and the military are intent on a healthy and thorough review of the policy.

"Know thy enemy" is an ancient principle of warfare; in his Art of War, Sun Tzu suggests that victory will come only when warriors know both themselves and their foes. Knowing more about the enemy was the animating idea for this week's cover on the Taliban, a project led by Sami Yousafzai and Ron Moreau. The enemy is unapologetic and determined—which, in my view, suggests that we should give Gen. Stanley McChrystal (whom Evan Thomas profiles) the forces and resources he is asking for.

There is nothing simple about Afghanistan. Principled people can disagree, and do, about what should be done. Even many of the hawks are tremulous, and everyone is terrified of being a 21st-century member of the best and the brightest, David Halberstam's ironic description of the men at the highest levels who pressed on—and on, and on—in Vietnam. Roughly put, the debate in Washington is about whether we should undertake a significant surge in order to increase our chances of defeating the Taliban, both through combat operations and by helping to rebuild (or, in some cases, build) a measure of civil society, or whether we should pull back from nation building and focus operations on destroying terrorist redoubts.

It would be great if the latter were possible, but a turn away from the broader counterinsurgency strategy would be a mistake. A Taliban we spoke to boasts that they "will never lose this war." The task, both for those engaged in the debate and for a public that has come to oppose the war, is to prove that man wrong.

As in Iraq before the surge there, we are facing deteriorating security and a poor political situation. While the analogy is inexact—many analogies are—it is true that Iraq had been written off as an insoluble problem before Gen. David Petraeus, with troops and a political touch, helped stabilize the country. The allegations of a stolen election make Hamid Karzai a—how to put it?—less-than-ideal partner, but Nuri al-Maliki did not always look like a good bet, either. (One of the first times Petraeus met with Maliki, the Iraqi asked the American general to detain some members of his own government.)

There can be no responsible discussion of Afghanistan without taking note of what an American drawdown would mean in Pakistan, a nuclear nation riven with Islamic extremism. There is a reason Richard Holbrooke long ago began speaking of "AfPak," for American security is potentially exposed to threats from both countries. A Taliban victory in Afghanistan would embolden their Pakistani allies. Mix in the nuclear element and you have moved from an anguishing crisis to an apocalyptic one.

The minds and motives of the Taliban become clear in our oral history. Sami's journey was extraordinary enough in normal times: traveling throughout northwest Pakistan, then to Quetta, to Karachi, and to the countryside south of Kabul in order to meet with elusive Taliban sources. But he undertook his travels, frequently by taxi over bumpy, dusty roads in the searing heat, -during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan while fasting from sunup to sundown. At one point he bounced from Quetta to -Karachi to Kabul in the space of three days, trying to track down his subjects. His journey was not without peril. Perhaps the most -potentially dangerous leg of the trip was the short run into town from Kabul's airport. Sami's plane from Islamabad had been delayed, as usual, arriving about 30 minutes late. As he jumped in a cab at the airport, the driver said they would have to travel into town by a circuitous route: a suicide car bomber had just blown up two or three Italian armored vehicles on the airport road a half hour before. Six Italian soldiers were killed in the explosion.

After reading the results of Sami's work this week, I suspect many of you will have a stronger sense of who we are up against—and, I hope, of why the cause is worth the fighting for.

Find this article at
http://www.newsweek.com/id/216234

tazvil04
George F. WillIs it 1966 in Washington?
Or 2003, with a Shinseki moment.

Published Sep 26, 2009
From the magazine issue dated Oct 5, 2009

As the president contemplates his choices regarding Afghanistan—when his incontinent campaigning about health care allows him time to think about anything else—he should study an episode from when he was 4 years old. It is rich in relevance.

In February 1966, a rancorous national argument about the deepening U.S. involvement in Vietnam had reached a rolling boil. A Democratic president was determined to enlarge benevolent government, as he understood it, more than any president since FDR, and more than any president would try to do for another 43 years. Just six months earlier—July 30, 1965—Lyndon Johnson, for whom expanding government provision of health care was a higher priority than any president would make it until 2009, had signed Medicare into law. LBJ was, however, acutely aware that his domestic agenda, about which he cared much more than he did about foreign policy, could be derailed by Vietnam—its costs and its potential for fracturing his party.

In February 1966 there were about 200,000 U.S. troops in Vietnam—the number would peak at 537,000 in 1968—and the Senate Foreign Relations Committee invited the distinguished diplomat and historian George F. Kennan to testify about the war. He said:

"There is more respect to be won in the opinion of this world by a resolute and courageous liquidation of unsound positions than by the most stubborn pursuit of extravagant or unpromising objectives … Our country should not be asked, and should not ask of itself, to shoulder the main burden of determining the political realities in any other country, and particularly not in one remote from our shores, from our culture and from the experience of our people. This is not only not our business, but I don't think we can do it successfully."

Now, there was some woolly flapdoodle. Winning the "respect" of world "opinion" often is not worth much, as Barack Obama is learning. The "world" adores him, and ignores him (about pressure on Iran, about persuading India and China to reduce their economic growth in order to reduce carbon emissions, etc.). And losing a war, which is how "liquidation" of the deep engagement in Vietnam would have been seen by the world, is always costly, especially for a great power.

Nevertheless, Kennan might have been right. More than 55,000 of the eventual 58,220 American deaths in Vietnam came after he testified. The cost of continuing there was disproportionate to any good achieved. The communist conquest of South Vietnam did not affect the Cold War's outcome.

Recently, Adm. Mike Mullen, the highly regarded chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, had what some in the Obama administration probably considered a Shinseki moment. On Feb. 25, 2003, a month before the invasion of Iraq, Gen. Eric Shinseki, then the Army's highest-ranking soldier, was asked during Senate testimony how many U.S. troops would be needed to secure Iraq. "Several hundred thousand," he said. Donald Rumsfeld called that estimate "far off the mark." Events proved otherwise. Recently Mullen told a Senate committee that Afghanistan "probably needs more forces."

Obama now says he ordered 21,000 more troops to Afghanistan to "secure the election." But 6,000 of the 21,000 did not get there until after the election, which was riddled with fraud. If more than five points of President Hamid Karzai's 54.6 percent of the vote was fraudulent, there must be a runoff. Afghanistan's ferocious winter might delay that until April, which would mean six months with even worse governance than usual.

It took six years to stand up an Iraqi Army of 250,000, and still U.S. forces are needed. One (flimsy) reason for persisting in Afghanistan is that it would be good if the country under a Democratic administration were to win a war. (Kosovo hardly counts.) That has not happened since 1945. But a Washington Post–ABC poll shows that only 33 percent of Democrats think we "must win" in Afghanistan. Sixty-six percent of Republicans do, but most Republicans—57 percent—say U.S. forces should be decreased or remain about the same.

U.S. forces might not retreat from Afghanistan, but they are retreating in that country. They are withdrawing from sparsely populated areas to concentrate on population centers, and areas controlled by the Taliban are expanding. There is precedent for a "resolute and courageous liquidation" of an untenable position: After a 1983 terrorist attack killed 241 Americans improvidently based at Beirut airport, Ronald Reagan quickly ended that intervention.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/216211
tazvil04
QUOTE(rla @ Oct 7 2009, 07:12 AM) *
Either the Foreign Policy "Realist" or the Foreign Policy "Idealist" will keep the country at war for ever...they
will just use different ways of rationalizing doing so...It is people like Andrew Bacevich that we need to listen to...


I admire Bacevich and agree with many of his opinions...

I think that the issue of what to do in Afghanistan has engaged the nation in a way it was never engaged regarding what to do in Iraq...

And we could never have such an in depth conversation and discussion on what to do if Bush or McCain were in the White House because they would use patriotism to cloud the issue and hide the realities and stakes from public view...

So, no matter where you stand on the issue of Afghanistan you should be heartened because the fact that this is a more open debate I believe increases the likelihood that the right decision will be made...and I think Obama's statements offer additional hope...that he is not interested in false choices...either...

My only problem with Obama's statement here is that he is making the statement while still considering what to do in Afghanistan...

How can you say that we will not remove our forces when you have yet to make a decision on our future Afghanistan/Pakistan strategy?

I think you have to have all options on the table or you force yourself into a corner...with a choice only between the status quo, a little more troops, or a lot more troops...

So, I would oppose Obama making sweeping statements like this...

The fasle choices comment in appropriate but following it up with the not removing troops comment I think narrows his options and the creativity of his foreign policy team...

October 7, 2009
Obama Rules Out Large Reduction in Afghan Force
By PETER BAKER and JEFF ZELENY

WASHINGTON — President Obama told Congressional leaders on Tuesday that he would not substantially reduce American forces in Afghanistan or shift the mission to just hunting terrorists there, but he indicated that he remained undecided about the major troop buildup proposed by his commanding general.

Meeting with leaders from both parties at the White House, Mr. Obama seemed to be searching for some sort of middle ground, saying he wanted to “dispense with the straw man argument that this is about either doubling down or leaving Afghanistan,” as White House officials later described his remarks.

But as the war approached its eight-year anniversary on Wednesday, the session underscored the perilous crosscurrents awaiting Mr. Obama. While some Democrats said they would support whatever he decided, others challenged him about sending more troops. And Republicans pressed him to order the escalation without delay, leading to a pointed exchange between the president and Senator John McCain of Arizona, his Republican opponent from last year’s election.

Mr. McCain told the president that “time is not on our side.” He added, “This should not be a leisurely process,” according to several people in the room.

A few minutes later, Mr. Obama replied, “John, I can assure you this won’t be leisurely,” according to several attendees. “No one feels more urgency to get this right than I do.”

Still, compared with the harsh debate over health care, the tone was civil and restrained during the 75-minute meeting in the State Dining Room as Mr. Obama, Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. and about 30 members of Congress gathered around a large table with only glasses of water and notebooks in front of them.

Mr. Obama summoned the lawmakers to assure them that he would keep their concerns in mind as he considered the request of his commander in Afghanistan, Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal, for as many as 40,000 more troops. The president plans to meet with his national security team on Wednesday to talk about Pakistan and on Friday to talk about Afghanistan. Aides plan to schedule one more meeting before he decides on General McChrystal’s proposal.

Several administration officials and lawmakers who attended the session on Tuesday said Mr. Obama was intent on using it to dismiss any impression that he would consider pulling out of Afghanistan. “There is no option that would entail a dramatic reduction in troops,” said one administration official, who, like others quoted in this article, requested anonymity to discuss the closed-door meeting.

Mr. Obama and Mr. Biden made it clear that the option Mr. Biden had proposed was not a pure counterterrorism alternative, relying only on drones and Special Forces to track down leaders of Al Qaeda. Instead, Mr. Biden’s approach would increase the use of such surgical strikes while leaving the overall size of the American force in Afghanistan roughly at the 68,000 troops currently authorized.

And in the final moments of the meeting, Mr. Obama sought to put to rest suspicions of friction with General McChrystal. “I’m the one who hired him,” Mr. Obama said, according to participants. “I put him there to give me a frank assessment.”

A joint appearance afterward on the White House driveway by the two top Democratic Congressional leaders demonstrated Mr. Obama’s political challenge. “The one thing that I thought was interesting was that everyone, Democrats and Republicans, said whatever decision you make, we’ll support it basically,” said Senator Harry Reid, the majority leader.

But Representative Nancy Pelosi, the House speaker, smiled and raised her eyebrows in apparent disagreement. “Whether we agreed with it or voted for it remains to be seen when we see what the president puts forth,” she said. “But I think there was a real display of universal respect for the manner in which he was approaching it.”

At least three Democrats — Ms. Pelosi; Senator Carl Levin, the Armed Services Committee chairman; and Representative David R. Obey, the Appropriations Committee chairman — voiced reservations during the meeting about increasing troops, according to those in attendance.

“There were a number of people who spoke out with a lot of caution about getting in deeper and what the endpoint is,” Mr. Levin said in an interview. Mr. Levin, who promoted accelerated training of Afghan forces, then met alone with Mr. Obama to expand on his views.

Others shared their skepticism in interviews. “Clearly, there is hesitancy about the prospect of sending 40,000 more troops,” said Representative Nita M. Lowey, Democrat of New York.

Senator John Kerry, chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, said after the meeting that “it would be irresponsible” to send more troops until it became clear “what is possible in Afghanistan.”

Some Democrats were more supportive of General McChrystal’s request, including Senator Dianne Feinstein, head of the intelligence committee, and Representative Ike Skelton, head of the Armed Services Committee.

“I said the real war in Afghanistan did not start until March, when the president made the speech on strategy,” Mr. Skelton said in an interview, referring to the strategy Mr. Obama put in place shortly after taking office. “There was no strategy before that,” he said, and so the president ought to give General McChrystal what he needs to execute it.

Republicans pressed even harder. After the meeting, Mr. McCain warned against any middle ground. “Half measures is what I worry about,” he said. Citing the Bush administration’s experience in Iraq, he added that half measures “lead to failure over time and an erosion of American public support.”

Mr. Obama separately pointed to American successes against Al Qaeda in a series of recent missile strikes and Special Forces raids. During a visit to the National Counterterrorism Center just outside Washington on Tuesday, he said Al Qaeda had “lost operational capacity” but he vowed to continue pressing the battle to cripple the network around the world.

White House officials said the president’s visit was not related to the Afghanistan review. But the public focus on efforts to eliminate Al Qaeda’s top hierarchy through surgical strikes could provide political cover for Mr. Obama should he reject the most expansive request for 40,000 more troops.

Gen. David H. Petraeus, who oversees operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, told a military conference on Tuesday that the president’s strategy review was progressing toward a decision. “It is moving quite rapidly,” he told the Association of the United States Army. “There is a recognition of the need to move through this.”

The general said the effort in Afghanistan required “a sustained, substantial commitment,” but he declined to say if that meant more troops.

Elisabeth Bumiller and Carl Hulse contributed reporting.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/07/world/as...agewanted=print
rla
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Oct 7 2009, 08:31 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Oct 7 2009, 07:12 AM) *
Either the Foreign Policy "Realist" or the Foreign Policy "Idealist" will keep the country at war for ever...they
will just use different ways of rationalizing doing so...It is people like Andrew Bacevich that we need to listen to...


I admire Bacevich and agree with many of his opinions...

I think that the issue of what to do in Afghanistan has engaged the nation in a way it was never engaged regarding what to do in Iraq...

And we could never have such an in depth conversation and discussion on what to do if Bush or McCain were in the White House because they would use patriotism to cloud the issue and hide the realities and stakes from public view...

So, no matter where you stand on the issue of Afghanistan you should be heartened because the fact that this is a more open debate I believe increases the likelihood that the right decision will be made...and I think Obama's statements offer additional hope...that he is not interested in false choices...either...

My only problem with Obama's statement here is that he is making the statement while still considering what to do in Afghanistan...

How can you say that we will not remove our forces when you have yet to make a decision on our future Afghanistan/Pakistan strategy?

I think you have to have all options on the table or you force yourself into a corner...with a choice only between the status quo, a little more troops, or a lot more troops...

So, I would oppose Obama making sweeping statements like this...

The fasle choices comment in appropriate but following it up with the not removing troops comment I think narrows his options and the creativity of his foreign policy team...

October 7, 2009
Obama Rules Out Large Reduction in Afghan Force
By PETER BAKER and JEFF ZELENY

WASHINGTON — President Obama told Congressional leaders on Tuesday that he would not substantially reduce American forces in Afghanistan or shift the mission to just hunting terrorists there, but he indicated that he remained undecided about the major troop buildup proposed by his commanding general.

Meeting with leaders from both parties at the White House, Mr. Obama seemed to be searching for some sort of middle ground, saying he wanted to “dispense with the straw man argument that this is about either doubling down or leaving Afghanistan,” as White House officials later described his remarks.

But as the war approached its eight-year anniversary on Wednesday, the session underscored the perilous crosscurrents awaiting Mr. Obama. While some Democrats said they would support whatever he decided, others challenged him about sending more troops. And Republicans pressed him to order the escalation without delay, leading to a pointed exchange between the president and Senator John McCain of Arizona, his Republican opponent from last year’s election.

Mr. McCain told the president that “time is not on our side.” He added, “This should not be a leisurely process,” according to several people in the room.

A few minutes later, Mr. Obama replied, “John, I can assure you this won’t be leisurely,” according to several attendees. “No one feels more urgency to get this right than I do.”

Still, compared with the harsh debate over health care, the tone was civil and restrained during the 75-minute meeting in the State Dining Room as Mr. Obama, Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. and about 30 members of Congress gathered around a large table with only glasses of water and notebooks in front of them.

Mr. Obama summoned the lawmakers to assure them that he would keep their concerns in mind as he considered the request of his commander in Afghanistan, Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal, for as many as 40,000 more troops. The president plans to meet with his national security team on Wednesday to talk about Pakistan and on Friday to talk about Afghanistan. Aides plan to schedule one more meeting before he decides on General McChrystal’s proposal.

Several administration officials and lawmakers who attended the session on Tuesday said Mr. Obama was intent on using it to dismiss any impression that he would consider pulling out of Afghanistan. “There is no option that would entail a dramatic reduction in troops,” said one administration official, who, like others quoted in this article, requested anonymity to discuss the closed-door meeting.

Mr. Obama and Mr. Biden made it clear that the option Mr. Biden had proposed was not a pure counterterrorism alternative, relying only on drones and Special Forces to track down leaders of Al Qaeda. Instead, Mr. Biden’s approach would increase the use of such surgical strikes while leaving the overall size of the American force in Afghanistan roughly at the 68,000 troops currently authorized.

And in the final moments of the meeting, Mr. Obama sought to put to rest suspicions of friction with General McChrystal. “I’m the one who hired him,” Mr. Obama said, according to participants. “I put him there to give me a frank assessment.”

A joint appearance afterward on the White House driveway by the two top Democratic Congressional leaders demonstrated Mr. Obama’s political challenge. “The one thing that I thought was interesting was that everyone, Democrats and Republicans, said whatever decision you make, we’ll support it basically,” said Senator Harry Reid, the majority leader.

But Representative Nancy Pelosi, the House speaker, smiled and raised her eyebrows in apparent disagreement. “Whether we agreed with it or voted for it remains to be seen when we see what the president puts forth,” she said. “But I think there was a real display of universal respect for the manner in which he was approaching it.”

At least three Democrats — Ms. Pelosi; Senator Carl Levin, the Armed Services Committee chairman; and Representative David R. Obey, the Appropriations Committee chairman — voiced reservations during the meeting about increasing troops, according to those in attendance.

“There were a number of people who spoke out with a lot of caution about getting in deeper and what the endpoint is,” Mr. Levin said in an interview. Mr. Levin, who promoted accelerated training of Afghan forces, then met alone with Mr. Obama to expand on his views.

Others shared their skepticism in interviews. “Clearly, there is hesitancy about the prospect of sending 40,000 more troops,” said Representative Nita M. Lowey, Democrat of New York.

Senator John Kerry, chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, said after the meeting that “it would be irresponsible” to send more troops until it became clear “what is possible in Afghanistan.”

Some Democrats were more supportive of General McChrystal’s request, including Senator Dianne Feinstein, head of the intelligence committee, and Representative Ike Skelton, head of the Armed Services Committee.

“I said the real war in Afghanistan did not start until March, when the president made the speech on strategy,” Mr. Skelton said in an interview, referring to the strategy Mr. Obama put in place shortly after taking office. “There was no strategy before that,” he said, and so the president ought to give General McChrystal what he needs to execute it.

Republicans pressed even harder. After the meeting, Mr. McCain warned against any middle ground. “Half measures is what I worry about,” he said. Citing the Bush administration’s experience in Iraq, he added that half measures “lead to failure over time and an erosion of American public support.”

Mr. Obama separately pointed to American successes against Al Qaeda in a series of recent missile strikes and Special Forces raids. During a visit to the National Counterterrorism Center just outside Washington on Tuesday, he said Al Qaeda had “lost operational capacity” but he vowed to continue pressing the battle to cripple the network around the world.

White House officials said the president’s visit was not related to the Afghanistan review. But the public focus on efforts to eliminate Al Qaeda’s top hierarchy through surgical strikes could provide political cover for Mr. Obama should he reject the most expansive request for 40,000 more troops.

Gen. David H. Petraeus, who oversees operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, told a military conference on Tuesday that the president’s strategy review was progressing toward a decision. “It is moving quite rapidly,” he told the Association of the United States Army. “There is a recognition of the need to move through this.”

The general said the effort in Afghanistan required “a sustained, substantial commitment,” but he declined to say if that meant more troops.

Elisabeth Bumiller and Carl Hulse contributed reporting.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/07/world/as...agewanted=print


In what sense has the nation been engaged in deciding what to do about Afganistan. Obama says he will meet with
a select group congressional leaders but he won't make the decision on the bases of Congressional opinion or
the public's opinion as reflected in the polls. He is the decider and he will decide, when he is ready...
Magmak1
The first step in closing down an empire is bringing its emperors and oligarchs under the rule of law.”

####



tazvil04
QUOTE(Magmak1 @ Oct 8 2009, 04:20 AM) *
The first step in closing down an empire is bringing its emperors and oligarchs under the rule of law.”

####



I would agree with that...

How do you define a program that promotes social uplift?

Medicare
Medicaid
Social security
Unemployment benefits
Education budget
HUD budget
USAID budget
Small Business Adminstration budget
Tax cuts for women and minority businesses
Child care tax credit
Arts budget
Law enforcement budget
Other foreign aide...

These programs uplift our society and our humanity...

You think all this is not more than our military budget?

Think again...

Now, I would suggest that you are probably looking at a pie chart like this....

http://www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm

But this pie chart includes in military spending rebuilding the Iraqi economy and school system...and provding assistance to Iraqi security forces which provides security to the Iraqi people which improves their lives...

To deny that is to put your head in the sand...and say I'm not listening...IMHO...

It also includes aide in Afghanistan and Pakistan to help the people...

So, the bottom line is nice try...
tazvil04
QUOTE(rla @ Oct 7 2009, 12:26 PM) *
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Oct 7 2009, 08:31 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Oct 7 2009, 07:12 AM) *
Either the Foreign Policy "Realist" or the Foreign Policy "Idealist" will keep the country at war for ever...they
will just use different ways of rationalizing doing so...It is people like Andrew Bacevich that we need to listen to...


I admire Bacevich and agree with many of his opinions...

I think that the issue of what to do in Afghanistan has engaged the nation in a way it was never engaged regarding what to do in Iraq...

And we could never have such an in depth conversation and discussion on what to do if Bush or McCain were in the White House because they would use patriotism to cloud the issue and hide the realities and stakes from public view...

So, no matter where you stand on the issue of Afghanistan you should be heartened because the fact that this is a more open debate I believe increases the likelihood that the right decision will be made...and I think Obama's statements offer additional hope...that he is not interested in false choices...either...

My only problem with Obama's statement here is that he is making the statement while still considering what to do in Afghanistan...

How can you say that we will not remove our forces when you have yet to make a decision on our future Afghanistan/Pakistan strategy?

I think you have to have all options on the table or you force yourself into a corner...with a choice only between the status quo, a little more troops, or a lot more troops...

So, I would oppose Obama making sweeping statements like this...

The fasle choices comment in appropriate but following it up with the not removing troops comment I think narrows his options and the creativity of his foreign policy team...

October 7, 2009
Obama Rules Out Large Reduction in Afghan Force
By PETER BAKER and JEFF ZELENY

WASHINGTON — President Obama told Congressional leaders on Tuesday that he would not substantially reduce American forces in Afghanistan or shift the mission to just hunting terrorists there, but he indicated that he remained undecided about the major troop buildup proposed by his commanding general.

Meeting with leaders from both parties at the White House, Mr. Obama seemed to be searching for some sort of middle ground, saying he wanted to “dispense with the straw man argument that this is about either doubling down or leaving Afghanistan,” as White House officials later described his remarks.

But as the war approached its eight-year anniversary on Wednesday, the session underscored the perilous crosscurrents awaiting Mr. Obama. While some Democrats said they would support whatever he decided, others challenged him about sending more troops. And Republicans pressed him to order the escalation without delay, leading to a pointed exchange between the president and Senator John McCain of Arizona, his Republican opponent from last year’s election.

Mr. McCain told the president that “time is not on our side.” He added, “This should not be a leisurely process,” according to several people in the room.

A few minutes later, Mr. Obama replied, “John, I can assure you this won’t be leisurely,” according to several attendees. “No one feels more urgency to get this right than I do.”

Still, compared with the harsh debate over health care, the tone was civil and restrained during the 75-minute meeting in the State Dining Room as Mr. Obama, Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. and about 30 members of Congress gathered around a large table with only glasses of water and notebooks in front of them.

Mr. Obama summoned the lawmakers to assure them that he would keep their concerns in mind as he considered the request of his commander in Afghanistan, Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal, for as many as 40,000 more troops. The president plans to meet with his national security team on Wednesday to talk about Pakistan and on Friday to talk about Afghanistan. Aides plan to schedule one more meeting before he decides on General McChrystal’s proposal.

Several administration officials and lawmakers who attended the session on Tuesday said Mr. Obama was intent on using it to dismiss any impression that he would consider pulling out of Afghanistan. “There is no option that would entail a dramatic reduction in troops,” said one administration official, who, like others quoted in this article, requested anonymity to discuss the closed-door meeting.

Mr. Obama and Mr. Biden made it clear that the option Mr. Biden had proposed was not a pure counterterrorism alternative, relying only on drones and Special Forces to track down leaders of Al Qaeda. Instead, Mr. Biden’s approach would increase the use of such surgical strikes while leaving the overall size of the American force in Afghanistan roughly at the 68,000 troops currently authorized.

And in the final moments of the meeting, Mr. Obama sought to put to rest suspicions of friction with General McChrystal. “I’m the one who hired him,” Mr. Obama said, according to participants. “I put him there to give me a frank assessment.”

A joint appearance afterward on the White House driveway by the two top Democratic Congressional leaders demonstrated Mr. Obama’s political challenge. “The one thing that I thought was interesting was that everyone, Democrats and Republicans, said whatever decision you make, we’ll support it basically,” said Senator Harry Reid, the majority leader.

But Representative Nancy Pelosi, the House speaker, smiled and raised her eyebrows in apparent disagreement. “Whether we agreed with it or voted for it remains to be seen when we see what the president puts forth,” she said. “But I think there was a real display of universal respect for the manner in which he was approaching it.”

At least three Democrats — Ms. Pelosi; Senator Carl Levin, the Armed Services Committee chairman; and Representative David R. Obey, the Appropriations Committee chairman — voiced reservations during the meeting about increasing troops, according to those in attendance.

“There were a number of people who spoke out with a lot of caution about getting in deeper and what the endpoint is,” Mr. Levin said in an interview. Mr. Levin, who promoted accelerated training of Afghan forces, then met alone with Mr. Obama to expand on his views.

Others shared their skepticism in interviews. “Clearly, there is hesitancy about the prospect of sending 40,000 more troops,” said Representative Nita M. Lowey, Democrat of New York.

Senator John Kerry, chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, said after the meeting that “it would be irresponsible” to send more troops until it became clear “what is possible in Afghanistan.”

Some Democrats were more supportive of General McChrystal’s request, including Senator Dianne Feinstein, head of the intelligence committee, and Representative Ike Skelton, head of the Armed Services Committee.

“I said the real war in Afghanistan did not start until March, when the president made the speech on strategy,” Mr. Skelton said in an interview, referring to the strategy Mr. Obama put in place shortly after taking office. “There was no strategy before that,” he said, and so the president ought to give General McChrystal what he needs to execute it.

Republicans pressed even harder. After the meeting, Mr. McCain warned against any middle ground. “Half measures is what I worry about,” he said. Citing the Bush administration’s experience in Iraq, he added that half measures “lead to failure over time and an erosion of American public support.”

Mr. Obama separately pointed to American successes against Al Qaeda in a series of recent missile strikes and Special Forces raids. During a visit to the National Counterterrorism Center just outside Washington on Tuesday, he said Al Qaeda had “lost operational capacity” but he vowed to continue pressing the battle to cripple the network around the world.

White House officials said the president’s visit was not related to the Afghanistan review. But the public focus on efforts to eliminate Al Qaeda’s top hierarchy through surgical strikes could provide political cover for Mr. Obama should he reject the most expansive request for 40,000 more troops.

Gen. David H. Petraeus, who oversees operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, told a military conference on Tuesday that the president’s strategy review was progressing toward a decision. “It is moving quite rapidly,” he told the Association of the United States Army. “There is a recognition of the need to move through this.”

The general said the effort in Afghanistan required “a sustained, substantial commitment,” but he declined to say if that meant more troops.

Elisabeth Bumiller and Carl Hulse contributed reporting.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/07/world/as...agewanted=print


In what sense has the nation been engaged in deciding what to do about Afganistan. Obama says he will meet with a select group congressional leaders but he won't make the decision on the bases of Congressional opinion or the public's opinion as reflected in the polls. He is the decider and he will decide, when he is ready...


I think you are being naive if you think that the dialogue on the future of Afghanistan in the media and in government is as one-sided as it was on Iraq...

It has been much more open...it has been much more inclusive of different points of view...

The press has gone back and forth suggesting first Obama is seriously considering a pull out in Afghanistan...to his now saying the troops will not come out...

Iraq was a dead certainty -- a drumbeat to war...that is not what is happening with regard to Afghanistan...it is a much more thoughtful discourse in the media and the government...

And I am surprised that you cannot see this...
Magmak1
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***

“The first step in closing down an empire is bringing its emperors and oligarchs under the rule of law.”

***


Magmak1
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Oct 8 2009, 02:12 PM) *
How do you define a program that promotes social uplift?

Medicare under attack by fraudsters
Medicaid being cutback across the board in virtually every state
Social security where at a minimum COLA increases are needed
Unemployment benefits capped, depsite rampant unemployment
Education budget given over to militarization, privatization and tes-score tutoring
HUD budget which has long been a place wherein fraud, theft and black budget siphoning has been identified
USAID budget
Small Business Adminstration budget
Tax cuts for women and minority businesses which are necessary given the fact that we'll all be payinf for the bailout for years and years
Child care tax credit
Arts budget under attack and likely cut along with library funding
Law enforcement budget increased so they can have those neat camouflage uniforms and their very own M-16's and LRADs
Other foreign aide... deifnitely a necessity, particular to support Israeli and its war crimes

These programs uplift our society and our humanity... yes, fer sure

You think all this is not more than our military budget? No, many of the expenses of empire are hidden in black budgets, the bombs and nuke maintenance activity under the Department of Energy, and expenses associated with the vast intelligence apparatus e.g. NSA< CIA, et al ad nauseum

Think again...

Now, I would suggest that you are probably looking at a pie chart like this....

http://www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm

But this pie chart includes in military spending rebuilding the Iraqi economy and school system...and provding assistance to Iraqi security forces which provides security to the Iraqi people which improves their lives... I have no doubt we're improving the lives of the Iraqis and Afgahnistan peoples by fostering chaos, arming one side against another, and emplying contractors whose sworn philiosophy is to kill Muslims...

To deny that is to put your head in the sand...and say I'm not listening...IMHO... my head is buried deeply... I've been taught to practice "duck and cover" since I was in elementary school

It also includes aide in Afghanistan and Pakistan to help the people... yes, I am convinced absolutely, thank you sir, that this money actually gets to the people ... yessir ...

So, the bottom line is nice try... 41 million seniors depend on Social Security; for the first time in 35 years, seniors are not expected to receive a cost-of-living adjustment, the yearly increase that helps them make ends meet and keep up with rising prices.... the bottom line is many will go without necessary medications, and have to buy Spam at WalMart.

Pegatha
QUOTE(TheRestofUs @ Oct 6 2009, 12:38 PM) *
As I've said. And as I've heard Hartmann say today. The annual income for the average Afghani is $500.00 a year. Why not pay them a thousand a year to not grow poppies kill the Taliban and Al-Qeada and also fund their schools and infrastructure development? We'd spend less and lose less lives and... why not?

Just my opinion.



Simple and elegant. However, such a solution would just drive up the Afghani cost of living. The increased scarcity of opium would drive its cost up, as well. I'm afraid it's an unending loop.
rla
QUOTE(Pegatha @ Oct 8 2009, 08:27 PM) *
QUOTE(TheRestofUs @ Oct 6 2009, 12:38 PM) *
As I've said. And as I've heard Hartmann say today. The annual income for the average Afghani is $500.00 a year. Why not pay them a thousand a year to not grow poppies kill the Taliban and Al-Qeada and also fund their schools and infrastructure development? We'd spend less and lose less lives and... why not?

Just my opinion.



Simple and elegant. However, such a solution would just drive up the Afghani cost of living. The increased scarcity of opium would drive its cost up, as well. I'm afraid it's an unending loop.


I think President Obama should select one of the following options:

A. Declare a cease fire and convene a peace conference to settle the future of Afganistan and Pakistan. Assign 20 thousand of our troops to a UN peace keeping force and bring the rest of them home...

B. Have Congress declare war on the Pashtun Tribes and Obliterate them, Men, Women and Children...This would make it possible for the US to maintain its Indirect Empire in the region and work towards the establishment of eventual modern nation states and the possibility of a community of soverign nations...
tazvil04
QUOTE(rla @ Oct 9 2009, 09:50 AM) *
QUOTE(Pegatha @ Oct 8 2009, 08:27 PM) *
QUOTE(TheRestofUs @ Oct 6 2009, 12:38 PM) *
As I've said. And as I've heard Hartmann say today. The annual income for the average Afghani is $500.00 a year. Why not pay them a thousand a year to not grow poppies kill the Taliban and Al-Qeada and also fund their schools and infrastructure development? We'd spend less and lose less lives and... why not?

Just my opinion.



Simple and elegant. However, such a solution would just drive up the Afghani cost of living. The increased scarcity of opium would drive its cost up, as well. I'm afraid it's an unending loop.


I think President Obama should select one of the following options:

A. Declare a cease fire and convene a peace conference to settle the future of Afganistan and Pakistan. Assign 20 thousand of our troops to a UN peace keeping force and bring the rest of them home...

And you really think our enemies are going to come to the table to negotiate?

B. Have Congress declare war on the Pashtun Tribes and Obliterate them, Men, Women and Children...This would make it possible for the US to maintain its Indirect Empire in the region and work towards the establishment of eventual modern nation states and the possibility of a community of soverign nations...


Nothing like trying to make a point by going overboard...
tazvil04
QUOTE(Magmak1 @ Oct 8 2009, 04:59 PM) *
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Oct 8 2009, 02:12 PM) *
How do you define a program that promotes social uplift?

Medicare under attack by fraudsters
Medicaid being cutback across the board in virtually every state
Social security where at a minimum COLA increases are needed
Unemployment benefits capped, depsite rampant unemployment
Education budget given over to militarization, privatization and tes-score tutoring
HUD budget which has long been a place wherein fraud, theft and black budget siphoning has been identified
USAID budget
Small Business Adminstration budget
Tax cuts for women and minority businesses which are necessary given the fact that we'll all be payinf for the bailout for years and years
Child care tax credit
Arts budget under attack and likely cut along with library funding
Law enforcement budget increased so they can have those neat camouflage uniforms and their very own M-16's and LRADs
Other foreign aide... deifnitely a necessity, particular to support Israeli and its war crimes

These programs uplift our society and our humanity... yes, fer sure

You think all this is not more than our military budget? No, many of the expenses of empire are hidden in black budgets, the bombs and nuke maintenance activity under the Department of Energy, and expenses associated with the vast intelligence apparatus e.g. NSA< CIA, et al ad nauseum

Think again...

Now, I would suggest that you are probably looking at a pie chart like this....

http://www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm

But this pie chart includes in military spending rebuilding the Iraqi economy and school system...and provding assistance to Iraqi security forces which provides security to the Iraqi people which improves their lives... I have no doubt we're improving the lives of the Iraqis and Afgahnistan peoples by fostering chaos, arming one side against another, and emplying contractors whose sworn philiosophy is to kill Muslims...

To deny that is to put your head in the sand...and say I'm not listening...IMHO... my head is buried deeply... I've been taught to practice "duck and cover" since I was in elementary school

It also includes aide in Afghanistan and Pakistan to help the people... yes, I am convinced absolutely, thank you sir, that this money actually gets to the people ... yessir ...

So, the bottom line is nice try... 41 million seniors depend on Social Security; for the first time in 35 years, seniors are not expected to receive a cost-of-living adjustment, the yearly increase that helps them make ends meet and keep up with rising prices.... the bottom line is many will go without necessary medications, and have to buy Spam at WalMart.



Well, if that's the state of affairs then thank God we have the military budget...at least there the money gets where its intended to go... rolleyes.gif
rla
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Oct 9 2009, 02:13 PM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Oct 9 2009, 09:50 AM) *
QUOTE(Pegatha @ Oct 8 2009, 08:27 PM) *
QUOTE(TheRestofUs @ Oct 6 2009, 12:38 PM) *
As I've said. And as I've heard Hartmann say today. The annual income for the average Afghani is $500.00 a year. Why not pay them a thousand a year to not grow poppies kill the Taliban and Al-Qeada and also fund their schools and infrastructure development? We'd spend less and lose less lives and... why not?

Just my opinion.



Simple and elegant. However, such a solution would just drive up the Afghani cost of living. The increased scarcity of opium would drive its cost up, as well. I'm afraid it's an unending loop.


I think President Obama should select one of the following options:

A. Declare a cease fire and convene a peace conference to settle the future of Afganistan and Pakistan. Assign 20 thousand of our troops to a UN peace keeping force and bring the rest of them home...

And you really think our enemies are going to come to the table to negotiate?

B. Have Congress declare war on the Pashtun Tribes and Obliterate them, Men, Women and Children...This would make it possible for the US to maintain its Indirect Empire in the region and work towards the establishment of eventual modern nation states and the possibility of a community of soverign nations...


Nothing like trying to make a point by going overboard...


MAKE EXPLICIT WHAT IS...
Magmak1
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Oct 9 2009, 05:15 PM) *
thank God we have the military budget...at least there the money gets where its intended to go... rolleyes.gif



I don't think God is terribly interested in our military budget, She is surely not to be thanked as its source, and the Son whom many seem to revere would have some issues with it, I think... at least, that is what I was taught but it is entirely possible that I went to the wrong Sunday School, madrassah or law school, or bought the wrong Book(s).

As for the money going somewhere, some significant amount of what does not go into the hands of the war profiteers goes up in smoke. Most of it is also drenched in blood, ruined lives and tears.

Isn't it interesting that the man who was awarded the Nobel Prize for Peace sits atop the greatest, most expensive, most powerful war machine ever devised?

I shall contemplate for a while what meaning is to be found in the creation, distribution, and utilization of something that is intended to destroy, kill or maim, and then I shall thank God that I am not involved in it, and that it is not done in my name.

If you are doing it in yours, have at it. I'm sure there is an enlistment office near you, or you can just hire on with one of those privateering agencies who will send you lickety-split (as soon as you sign your arbitration only paperwork) to a place where you can contribute personally and put your viewpoint to the test and on the front line.

If you are doing it in His name, as is some of the rabid contractor groups (and as are the very people you are seeing fit to do it to), then would you all please go and worship on another planet?

Those whom you think are the enemy purportedly offer up the prospect of many virgins awaiting their warriorness in Heaven, and some of the nation's contracting privateers offer you the fun and games immediately on the off-shift, so 'my friend', you tell -- with such high zest to children ardent for some desperate glory -- that old lie.
tazvil04
QUOTE(rla @ Oct 9 2009, 01:17 PM) *
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Oct 9 2009, 02:13 PM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Oct 9 2009, 09:50 AM) *
QUOTE(Pegatha @ Oct 8 2009, 08:27 PM) *
QUOTE(TheRestofUs @ Oct 6 2009, 12:38 PM) *
As I've said. And as I've heard Hartmann say today. The annual income for the average Afghani is $500.00 a year. Why not pay them a thousand a year to not grow poppies kill the Taliban and Al-Qeada and also fund their schools and infrastructure development? We'd spend less and lose less lives and... why not?

Just my opinion.



Simple and elegant. However, such a solution would just drive up the Afghani cost of living. The increased scarcity of opium would drive its cost up, as well. I'm afraid it's an unending loop.


I think President Obama should select one of the following options:

A. Declare a cease fire and convene a peace conference to settle the future of Afganistan and Pakistan. Assign 20 thousand of our troops to a UN peace keeping force and bring the rest of them home...

And you really think our enemies are going to come to the table to negotiate?

B. Have Congress declare war on the Pashtun Tribes and Obliterate them, Men, Women and Children...This would make it possible for the US to maintain its Indirect Empire in the region and work towards the establishment of eventual modern nation states and the possibility of a community of soverign nations...


Nothing like trying to make a point by going overboard...


MAKE EXPLICIT WHAT IS...


Do I really have to do this?

If you are seriously asking...

Point B...is ridiculous...
rla
As I've said. And as I've heard Hartmann say today. The annual income for the average Afghani is $500.00 a year. Why not pay them a thousand a year to not grow poppies kill the Taliban and Al-Qeada and also fund their schools and infrastructure development? We'd spend less and lose less lives and... why not?

Just my opinion.[/quote]


Simple and elegant. However, such a solution would just drive up the Afghani cost of living. The increased scarcity of opium would drive its cost up, as well. I'm afraid it's an unending loop.
[/quote]

I think President Obama should select one of the following options:

A. Declare a cease fire and convene a peace conference to settle the future of Afganistan and Pakistan. Assign 20 thousand of our troops to a UN peace keeping force and bring the rest of them home...

And you really think our enemies are going to come to the table to negotiate?

B. Have Congress declare war on the Pashtun Tribes and Obliterate them, Men, Women and Children...This would make it possible for the US to maintain its Indirect Empire in the region and work towards the establishment of eventual modern nation states and the possibility of a community of soverign nations...
[/quote]

Nothing like trying to make a point by going overboard...
[/quote]

MAKE EXPLICIT WHAT IS...
[/quote]

Do I really have to do this?

If you are seriously asking...

Point B...is ridiculous...
[/quote]

No, it is unethical...what is rediculous is 8 more years of the status quo...
tazvil04
QUOTE(rla @ Oct 13 2009, 03:56 PM) *
No, it is unethical...what is rediculous is 8 more years of the status quo...


You would be right if for the next 8 years the status quo is what has been proposed...and accepted...but unfortunately for your premise to be correct we need a status quo and no one is advocating that...not Obama...not the anti-war movement...not the hawks...no one...

And I think it is a little more than unethical...a doctor robbing his patients while under anesthesia is unethical...murdering persons as you advocate is more than that...it is inhumane...but then you know that... rolleyes.gif
tazvil04
QUOTE(Magmak1 @ Oct 9 2009, 02:42 PM) *
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Oct 9 2009, 05:15 PM) *
thank God we have the military budget...at least there the money gets where its intended to go... rolleyes.gif



I don't think God is terribly interested in our military budget, She is surely not to be thanked as its source, and the Son whom many seem to revere would have some issues with it, I think... at least, that is what I was taught but it is entirely possible that I went to the wrong Sunday School, madrassah or law school, or bought the wrong Book(s).

As for the money going somewhere, some significant amount of what does not go into the hands of the war profiteers goes up in smoke. Most of it is also drenched in blood, ruined lives and tears.

Isn't it interesting that the man who was awarded the Nobel Prize for Peace sits atop the greatest, most expensive, most powerful war machine ever devised?

I shall contemplate for a while what meaning is to be found in the creation, distribution, and utilization of something that is intended to destroy, kill or maim, and then I shall thank God that I am not involved in it, and that it is not done in my name.

If you are doing it in yours, have at it. I'm sure there is an enlistment office near you, or you can just hire on with one of those privateering agencies who will send you lickety-split (as soon as you sign your arbitration only paperwork) to a place where you can contribute personally and put your viewpoint to the test and on the front line.

If you are doing it in His name, as is some of the rabid contractor groups (and as are the very people you are seeing fit to do it to), then would you all please go and worship on another planet?

Those whom you think are the enemy purportedly offer up the prospect of many virgins awaiting their warriorness in Heaven, and some of the nation's contracting privateers offer you the fun and games immediately on the off-shift, so 'my friend', you tell -- with such high zest to children ardent for some desperate glory -- that old lie.


If we are a product of God then what we produce is a product of God -- and God helped create our ability to create wealth...and it is a subpart of that wealth that is designated for our military budget...

If you want to take a point to its illogical conclusion as you have regarding the distribution of our tax dollars...you can...and get a serious result...

If you could not detect my sarcasm in the note regarding God and our defense budget my apologies... cool.gif
Magmak1
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Oct 15 2009, 04:25 PM) *
If you could not detect my sarcasm in the note regarding God and our defense budget my apologies... cool.gif



Your sarcasm was evident.

I don't think the purposeful death and destruction of anyone on either side warrants sarcasm.

You have spoken of our enemies, but you have not spoken of why they are our enemies, or how we made them our enemies, or why they perceive us as enemies.

As a Christian nation (which is really just a regressive fundamentalist Old Testament Abrahamic Zionist-affiliated conclave which has not truly embraced Christ or any of his teachings), we ought to be able to do better than that. Turning the other cheek doesn't mean having more modern delivery systems for mayhem. “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them” is not permission for sanctions that kill half a million children, or the widespread use of depleted uranium. But we must render unto the tribunes his tributes, and to the emperor the coin he needs, and he will line the roads with the crucified who dared to believe in something other than Empire. But I don't know anything about the subject... I stopped going to Sunday School and church when the hypocrisy became obvious many decades ago. I know enough to say that -- as an apparently avid supporter of war and its costs -- your apologies here, to me or to whomever, are pompous and unnecessary, wasted and alkaline.
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