I'm not sure why some members on this forum think that socialism is the opposite of capitalism. It makes it sound like socialism is worse than communism. I now know that socialism is not a form of government, but instead an element in most every form of government. What makes a government policy socialized is simply the goal of putting people before other things like profiteering.
I once assumed that because socialism was defined as the intermediate between capitalism and communism, that communism was the opposite of capitalism. I now know that capitalists would like us to believe that either socialism leads to capitalism or that it's somehow worse than communism. What capitalist are really against is democracy of people. Yes it's true that too much socialism can lead to communism. But democracy of people isn't always social. A large minority of voters don't even care about people other than themselves or their lineage. So although democracy favors social agendas (as it should), it's not always social.
I'm sure I'm not the first to see the spectrum as follows: communism <-> social democracy <-> capitalism <-> fascism.
The two ends of the spectrum are both forms of dictatorship. The difference is that communism is dictatorship from the public sector, while fascism is dictatorship by the private sector. The two middle parts of the spectrum are both forms of democracy. Social democracy (what conservatives have been calling socialism) is democracy of people (one person = one vote.) Capitalism is democracy of the dollar (one dollar = one vote.) Capitalist rarely mention fascism because it's the danger of too much capitalism.
Your thoughts?
Full Version: The Simple Spectrum of Government.
QUOTE(billfmsd @ Sep 26 2009, 01:20 AM) 
I'm not sure why some members on this forum think that socialism is the opposite of capitalism. It makes it sound like socialism is worse than communism. I now know that socialism is not a form of government, but instead an element in most every form of government. What makes a government policy socialized is simply the goal of putting people before other things like profiteering.
I once assumed that because socialism was defined as the intermediate between capitalism and communism, that communism was the opposite of capitalism. I now know that capitalists would like us to believe that either socialism leads to capitalism or that it's somehow worse than communism. What capitalist are really against is democracy of people. Yes it's true that too much socialism can lead to communism. But democracy of people isn't always social. A large minority of voters don't even care about people other than themselves or their lineage. So although democracy favors social agendas (as it should), it's not always social.
I'm sure I'm not the first to see the spectrum as follows: communism <-> social democracy <-> capitalism <-> fascism.
The two ends of the spectrum are both forms of dictatorship. The difference is that communism is dictatorship from the public sector, while fascism is dictatorship by the private sector. The two middle parts of the spectrum are both forms of democracy. Social democracy (what conservatives have been calling socialism) is democracy of people (one person = one vote.) Capitalism is democracy of the dollar (one dollar = one vote.) Capitalist rarely mention fascism because it's the danger of too much capitalism.
Your thoughts?
I once assumed that because socialism was defined as the intermediate between capitalism and communism, that communism was the opposite of capitalism. I now know that capitalists would like us to believe that either socialism leads to capitalism or that it's somehow worse than communism. What capitalist are really against is democracy of people. Yes it's true that too much socialism can lead to communism. But democracy of people isn't always social. A large minority of voters don't even care about people other than themselves or their lineage. So although democracy favors social agendas (as it should), it's not always social.
I'm sure I'm not the first to see the spectrum as follows: communism <-> social democracy <-> capitalism <-> fascism.
The two ends of the spectrum are both forms of dictatorship. The difference is that communism is dictatorship from the public sector, while fascism is dictatorship by the private sector. The two middle parts of the spectrum are both forms of democracy. Social democracy (what conservatives have been calling socialism) is democracy of people (one person = one vote.) Capitalism is democracy of the dollar (one dollar = one vote.) Capitalist rarely mention fascism because it's the danger of too much capitalism.
Your thoughts?
Bill I think this is an excellent analysis. It diagrams what you get when you plot the interaction of two major orthogonal (relatively independent) dimensions of the social system: The Political dimension, expressed as a continumn of authoritarian to democratic and the economic dimension of capitalism to socialism...
I also think this is right on. Dictatorship, IE; "Totalitarianism" can hide behind multiple masks. Whether it is Religion or Capitalism or Communism. And we've seen it all. We have narrowly avoided it in America (so far) because there has not been a need to revolt. Therefore we've avoided the painful lessons countries in Europe have lived through. We've been able to change through elections up to now. But those who are "Totalitarianists" are still with us and always will be. The trick is to keep them out of power.
Your spectrum shows that a mix of social democracy and capitalism is about the right place to be. Only a STRONG and informed MIDDLE CLASS electorate in a Representative Democracy can keep it from drifting too far in either direction. Therefore those who wish to rule us despise the middle class and the informed electorate it creates because the wannabe rulers are too easily outvoted and their schemes of power are too easily overturned.
So they must resort to a long-term program of systemic lies, economic enslavement and dumbing down said electorate.
Systemic Attempts to disenfranchise voters. Attacks on education. Attacks on the Middle Class. Buying up Media. Lies about War. Wiretapping political opponents. Corporate personhood. Criminalizing dissent and a few others are all big red flags. Or should be to any thinking informed citizen and should be decried.
Just my opinion.
Your spectrum shows that a mix of social democracy and capitalism is about the right place to be. Only a STRONG and informed MIDDLE CLASS electorate in a Representative Democracy can keep it from drifting too far in either direction. Therefore those who wish to rule us despise the middle class and the informed electorate it creates because the wannabe rulers are too easily outvoted and their schemes of power are too easily overturned.
So they must resort to a long-term program of systemic lies, economic enslavement and dumbing down said electorate.
Systemic Attempts to disenfranchise voters. Attacks on education. Attacks on the Middle Class. Buying up Media. Lies about War. Wiretapping political opponents. Corporate personhood. Criminalizing dissent and a few others are all big red flags. Or should be to any thinking informed citizen and should be decried.
Just my opinion.
QUOTE(TheRestofUs @ Sep 26 2009, 08:20 AM)
I also think this is right on. Dictatorship, IE; "Totalitarianism" can hide behind multiple masks. Whether it is Religion or Capitalism or Communism. And we've seen it all. We have narrowly avoided it in America (so far) because there has not been a need to revolt. Therefore we've avoided the painful lessons countries in Europe have lived through. We've been able to change through elections up to now. But those who are "Totalitarianists" are still with us and always will be. The trick is to keep them out of power.
Your spectrum shows that a mix of social democracy and capitalism is about the right place to be. Only a STRONG and informed MIDDLE CLASS electorate in a Representative Democracy can keep it from drifting too far in either direction. Therefore those who wish to rule us despise the middle class and the informed electorate it creates because the wannabe rulers are too easily outvoted and their schemes of power are too easily overturned.
So they must resort to a long-term program of systemic lies, economic enslavement and dumbing down said electorate.
Systemic Attempts to disenfranchise voters. Attacks on education. Attacks on the Middle Class. Buying up Media. Lies about War. Wiretapping political opponents. Corporate personhood. Criminalizing dissent and a few others are all big red flags. Or should be to any thinking informed citizen and should be decried.
Just my opinion.
Your spectrum shows that a mix of social democracy and capitalism is about the right place to be. Only a STRONG and informed MIDDLE CLASS electorate in a Representative Democracy can keep it from drifting too far in either direction. Therefore those who wish to rule us despise the middle class and the informed electorate it creates because the wannabe rulers are too easily outvoted and their schemes of power are too easily overturned.
So they must resort to a long-term program of systemic lies, economic enslavement and dumbing down said electorate.
Systemic Attempts to disenfranchise voters. Attacks on education. Attacks on the Middle Class. Buying up Media. Lies about War. Wiretapping political opponents. Corporate personhood. Criminalizing dissent and a few others are all big red flags. Or should be to any thinking informed citizen and should be decried.
Just my opinion.
I have to edit. Yes we've avoided the need to revolt. But it did happen in some smaller forms. The biggest example is of course the Civil War. There a segment of the country decided they would fight to keep a great evil alive. They refused to use the tools of democracy or abide by the mmajority decisions on this. There was no legitimate need to revolt except in their anti-democratic minds. So they did anyway and fired the first shot. And so a great wrong was ended.
There are sounds coming from some that I've never heard in my lifetime. It sounds like what it must have sounded like back in those times. There are people who are so racist and or have been so brainwashed by the evil talkers that they may attempt to bring about another Civil War. I hope not. But in my opinion those who are scaring people with lies and inciting violence already have blood on their hands. And those who are fomenting the overthrow of the government are walking on thinner and thinner ice.
I would say that I am watching carefully what is going on.
Just some thoughts.
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