Think about that for a moment, and then explain to me how an analogy can be a reality.
His tactic of responding inside my posts with the same font and color as I used in that post is an obvious tactical technique spotted already and for which he has already have been called out; it is a plain, clean sign of his lack of intellectual integrity. But what else should we expect from someone who keeps bouncing the NIST product and process back into play?
He failed to address the element of discovery and subpoena and the tactic of compelling testimony, and then rolling over that into new territory for further legal means of compelling testimony and discovery. "Wonderful thing, a subpoena."
[By the way, what does the suffix Esq. mean when it follows a name? Let’s ask the American Bar Association: http://www.abanet.org/soloseznet/threads/0505/esq.html ]
That discussion was about the forensics….
I don’t pretend to have read this stuff, but:
A good compendium on site and materiel forensics can be found here:
http://911research.wtc7.net/resources/web/wtc.html
Victim forensics are covered in some detail in multiple articles here:
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/linksto911...ctimidentificat
but he continues to suggest that the collection of forensic evidence and the high-priority rescue & stabilization activities cannot proceed simultaneously, or nearly-simultaneously, and in parallel space within an impact zone, even though I have provided references that indicate that it is routine and routinely a component of incident response planning in fire, police, EMS and other agency plans. Remember I am experienced, and was NIMS certified. But Taz doesn't have to believe me; he can go ask Richard Canas and Dominic Rota.
He asks if Gayle Onnen is an expert in the area of his fallacioious postulation, but a simple Google will disclose that she was an-scene photographer and had prior experience in disaster-scene photography. “She is an accomplished photographer who has spent over 15 years in the forensic and mass disaster fields. Her involvement in mass disaster response has included months of work in New York for 9-11, the Flight 587 crash in Queens, and in Louisiana for hurricanes Katrina and Rita.”
##
Taz didn’t give me any points at all for countering his claim that “There is good reason not to allow any photographers or media to examine the wreckage -- its a gravesite...literally....” with six documented indications that such photography is routine and once again he argued that further forensic research would show great disrespect of the dead.
I offer the counter-argument that the greatest disrespect for the dead is to move forward without convincing understanding of what and who killed them. The greatest disrespect for the dead and their surviving relatives is to not blithely write off what happened as a matter of coincidence, incompetence, or whatever.
Furthermore, any suggestion that forensic photography in a disaster situation is being disrespectful of the dead is way too late, as these collections of photos will attest:
http://www.stevespak.com/fires/manhattan/groundzero.html
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/p...ro_archive.html
http://www.gulnarasamoilova.com/
http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0111/biggart12.htm
http://amanzafar.com/WTC/index.shtm
Furthermore, some of it has been put on display in the nation’s capital:
QUOTE
“The National Museum of Health and Medicine, located on Walter Reed, has unveiled an exhibit highlighting efforts used by its parent organization, the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, to identify the victims of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks at the Pentagon and the crash of United Airlines Flight 93 in Somerset County, Pa.
The exhibit, Research Matters: 9/11, The Armed Forces Institute of Pathology Responds, features photographs never before seen by the public that were taken by AFIP staff as part of their duties. The exhibit will run indefinitely.
"The experiences of my colleagues in the aftermath of the terrorist attacks have become part of our collective national memory and have been documented by the museum for lasting value to the world," said Dr. Adrianne Noe, museum director.”
The exhibit, Research Matters: 9/11, The Armed Forces Institute of Pathology Responds, features photographs never before seen by the public that were taken by AFIP staff as part of their duties. The exhibit will run indefinitely.
"The experiences of my colleagues in the aftermath of the terrorist attacks have become part of our collective national memory and have been documented by the museum for lasting value to the world," said Dr. Adrianne Noe, museum director.”
I haven’t yet done the research yet on the specifics used at the three scenes and I am by no means prepared to argue that any DNA identifications done anywhere were suspect, but ...
I did get clear about the vague uneasiness I had about this issue…
It was the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology that had been involved in a famous autopsy in which the evidence and photographs and notes and reports were highly suspect. Indeed, the evidence is apparently still missing. How it can be missing after being placed in the National Archives is a question that hasn’t been answered; it must have gone to the same place those Convar hard drives can be found.
Oh, yes, indeed, Taz will say.
Another conspiracy theory??!…
But that one -- like this one -- has been great fodder for all the incompetence and coincidence theorists, the apologists for bad science and those who rest their conclusive support on analogies and simulations which, by definition, are not the real thing.
##
Taz says … once again … that he thinks I am suggesting that we “waste” millions of dollars doing more forensic recovery and research and analysis and investigation of the whole enchilada, but he fails to acknowledge or address my comments on the missing … not wasted, missing … trillions of dollars. The first rule of propaganda is to get people to swallow false assumptions.
So let me get this straight:
He doesn't think we should spent a few more million trying to figure out where trillions went? Or trying to recover it?
Who was his math teacher? Vesco? Madoff? Rumsfeld?
The incompetence theorists are content to be concerned about spending a few million but watch trillions disappear.
They are blasé about this level of incompetence? A couple of bumbling bureaucrats and 3,000 people got evaporated and they and others say 'oh, let's just let bygones be bygones?'
As another veteran researcher has put it: “Anyone with reasonable access to the JFK evidence who does not conclude conspiracy is cognitively impaired and/or complicit in the crime…. We are at war with the killers of John Fitzgerald Kennedy -- and with their accessories after the fact.” And the same types of people are involved.. the same names, the same faces, the same agencies. And then we are told (again, for the umpteenth time) that we shouldn’t question the government’s official story.
But at least we do have a pretty solid idea who that dude with the Harley outfit was who was selected somehow by someone to play the role and tell us that he knew that very morning the precise mechanics of how the jet fuel burned so hot that it weakened the massive steel beams such that the entire building turned to micron-size dust in the formation of a pyroclastic cloud. “Mostly due to structural failure because the fire was just too intense”.

##
Apparently the NY Times noted that "... super thermite might not even exist" but http://awards.lanl.gov/PDFfiles/Super-Ther...atches_2003.pdf and , if you read the 'AMTIAC Quarterly' on the military applications of nano-energetics, http://www.p2pays.org/ref/34/33115.pdf , you’ll see the military and DARPA imprints on the front cover.
Why hasn't the FBI examined this issue?
Perhaps their agenda differs from the agenda of Americans interested in finding the truth regarding the perpetrators of the 911 attacks?
"The FBI has been AWOL."
The mission statement of the explosives branch of the FBI, our dutiful public servant, says:
"Perform chemical analyses to determine the type of explosives used in an improvised explosive or incendiary device; and
Assist investigators in determining if debris from a fire of suspicious origin has an accelerant present."
##
Taz asks why should NIST prove what they have already proven, neatly dismissing scads of research, evidence and professional and scientific expertise which suggests that the NIST work was --- well, what word should I use? – incompetent. Lacking in integrity.
(Lots of that going around these days…)
##
Tazvil04 wrote
“It is more incumbent upon the government to prove what they have proven?
Where do you get this from?
Where is this written?”
It was discussed obliquely in Post #16, Bullet #12C, but much more specifically in the Introduction (page xv and thereafter) of David Ray Griffin’s book The New Pearl Harbor Revisited: 9/11, The Cover-up, and the Exposé.
QUOTE
“Absent a revival of investigative journalism—a dim prospect at best, in view of the media ownership concentration—books like this one, arming the informed citizen with solid information and providing a basis for demanding direct action, appear to be our best hope."
—Shelton F. Lankford, Lt. Col. US Marine Corps (Ret.)
—Shelton F. Lankford, Lt. Col. US Marine Corps (Ret.)
##
Tazvil04 argued:
“Let us say we have a scientist...like Isaac Newton...who has established a theory of gravity...its widely accepted and used with modern physics...and then we have someone who calls Newton's law a fraud and invalid...
Is it incumbent upon Newton to defend what has been widely accepted or for the challenger to provide a proof that invalidates his theory?”
but his parallel here is illogical and incorrect. He argues on the basis of Newton being highly accepted, which of course he is today; back then, however, he was seen more as something akin to a “conspiracy theorist”.
As WikiPedia puts it,
“Newton's postulate of an invisible force able to act over vast distances led to him being criticized for introducing ‘occult agencies" into science’.”
Like Popular Mechanics and NIST ...
Indeed, back then, Newton did have to prove his theory, and he did so by publishing it -- for peer review and examination -- in the form of “the Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica (now known as the Principia) which was published on 5 July 1687 with encouragement and financial help from Edmond Halley.” Under further questioning, before the gravitas of his work was accepted, in the second edition of the 'Principia' (1713), Newton firmly rejected the criticisms, writing it was both unnecessary and improper to frame hypotheses of things that were not implied by the phenomena.”
Thanks again for helping to make my case. I do thank you for introducing Newton and his ideas into the discussion: perhaps we can get him, since he helped develop infinitesimal calculus, and his successors to focus on what happened to the missing trillions, [maybe they just moved the decimal point!] and whatever happened at WTC7.

##
Let's let Taz just totally ignore the fact that the future Executive Director of the 9/11 Commission co-authored a paper in 1998 with a former Deputy Secretary of Defense who thereafter served as the Director of Central Intelligence that said
QUOTE
An act of catastrophic terrorism that killed thousands or tens of thousands of people and/or disrupted the necessities of life for hundreds of thousands, or even millions, would be a watershed event in America’s history. It could involve loss of life and property unprecedented for peacetime and undermine Americans’ fundamental sense of security [oooooooo...] within their own borders in a manner akin to the 1949 Soviet atomic bomb test, or perhaps even worse. Constitutional liberties would be challenged as the United States sought to protect itself from further attacks by pressing against allowable limits in surveillance of citizens, detention of suspects, and the use of deadly force. More violence would follow, either as other terrorists seek to imitate this great "success" or as the United States strikes out at those considered responsible. Like Pearl Harbor, such an event would divide our past and future into a "before" and "after." The effort and resources we devote to averting or containing this threat now, in the "before" period, will seem woeful, even pathetic, when compared to what will happen "after." Our leaders will be judged negligent for not addressing catastrophic terrorism more urgently.
"Prophetic or what?"
Taz is among the negligence theorists, yet no one has held anyone accountable for their negligence.
Negligent homicide is a criminal charge brought against people who, through criminal negligence, allow others to die.
If I keep pointing that put, I’ll probably get in Deutch. John Deutch. [Oh, just as an aside, a chemist published on the subject of explosives, pardoned by Clinton for security breaches as the DCI. He has also served on the boards of Raytheon and CitiGroup, and Schlumberger Ltd., and the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board (PFIAB) (1990-93). when Deutch was appointed to the PFIAB, he was also serving as a member of the Defense Policy Board, and the Science Advisory Board of the National Security Agency.]
##
By the way, who is arguing that “the government” should be in charge of the new investigation? Certainly not me…
It is perfectly obvious, although there are authors and others at the center of the phenomenon, that the search for 9/11 truth is a widely-dispersed group of citizens who have conducted the research, gathered the information, forwarded the argument, created the videos, etc.
There are very many sources on the interrelationships of the citizens with their governors, going all the way back to 1215.
##
Tazvil04 speaks of a “conversation” in post #22 in his debunking thread. We have had this kind of interaction over a number of threads, years, and web sites. He calls the points I raise and the evidence I support “conspiracy theories” and yet at the same time Tazvil04 suggests, at least indirectly, that there are places this conversation can’t go, or shouldn’t go, because it might offend someone or something or because it is disallowed because of “national security”. The national security point is a laughter because the national security state is a prime suspect, and because the security of this nation and its people has been continuously put at risk, or used as guinea pigs, or been victimized by the very people in charge of it, through extended warfare, egregious bailouts, and more.
I think back to a comment I heard once – and have used frequently since – by Andrew Lippman, Ph.D., then the Associate Director of Media Technology at MIT, in a conference hosted by Arthur Ellison, M.D. and the Medical Simulation Foundation on October 20-21, 1986 at the corner of Adams and Strafford Roads in a little sleepy hamlet called Williamstown, Massachusetts.
"In his more than 35 years at MIT's world-famous MediaLab, Dr. Andrew Lippman has been one of the world's foremost researchers on the evolution and impact of digital technology and media on business, society and everyday life.
He is one of the world’s foremost authorities on viral communication and how infrastructure-free communications systems will transform society, the communications industry and business in general. His focus:
Make information alive—communication that is fully embedded in our daily lives.
Make digital social networks work like real social networks—social networks and systems that work as fluidly as natural contact in a village."
The man said “Interaction involves mutual and simultaneous activity among people working on a common goal. The process must be mutually interruptible (like a conversation) and, therefore, where you end up is an unknown.”
In this case, we are not talking about a conversation between two people named Magmak1 and Tazvil04; we are talking about a conversation between the American people and the leadership of the American socio-political culture.
Like two quarreling marital partners, if there are parties in that conversation who insist on setting limits to what can be discussed, or how it can be discussed, it’s not a valid conversation, and it is not likely to end up with mutual satisfaction.
Maybe we should go back and evaluate what he said in the context of what we know (or think we know) about 9/11.
##
Taz asks “When does it stop?”
It stops when there is finality of justice, when there is appropriate [according to legal rules, processes and the law] investigation, discovery, trial and sentencing for crimes committed.
It stops when the American people, the American system of law, and the American media own up to their fiduciary duty and responsibility [“a legal relationship of confidence or trust between two or more parties”]. I might add “respect”.
It stops when the parties stop playing games.
It stops when people begin to act in full disclosure, in personal authenticity, with veracity and courage and interpersonal groundedness.
##
Taz asks on what basis can I demand proof of the “official story”.
I can ask for it on the basis of being a citizen… on the basis of prior history and law and precedence and morality. I can ask on the basis, as the English poet said, that “no man is an island”. I can ask on the basis that I have done my own homework and have come satisfactorily to conclusions that we are not being told the whole truth by the government. “The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth” is a phrase that rings in my ears for some reason. So, help me, God.
##
Taz suggests that 9/11 Truthers make FOIA claims knowing full well that that has already occurred but that that process has been slowed, corrupted, corroded, and often simply provides documents that are widely blacked out or, we are told, can’t be found… like the President’s brains, they are missing…. “Mostly due to structural failure because the fire was just too intense” ... like the recovered hard drives whose recovered secrets suddenly disappeared behind the walls of corporations run by those affiliated with state security apparati and which were deeply involved in the events …
As written by another veteran in the field…:
QUOTE
They just hire their own judges, their own Attorney Generals & Law Officers, and when they're unequivocally caught in illegal or criminal behavior, they just play the National Security card. And that's without even mentioning widespread private military contractor immunity from prosecution in the jurisdictions in which they operate.
##
Taz says I have no proof of what or who was on the planes. If there is proof that he has. or the government has, bring it forth. Bring it into the light of day where the rest of us can see it.
Like the black boxes. Like the people arguing the point.
It all has to be seen for what it is, says, does.
Transparency. Integrity.
##
Taz has made an argument…
- “Was the official story in the Warren Investigation proven?
- Was the Senate Intelligence Committee assessments of the prewar intelligence proven?
- Was the FEMA screw ups regarding Hurricane Katrina proven?
- Were the findings in the Iran Contra investigation ever proven?
- Were the Walter Read hospital screw-ups ever proven?”
which is a new approach, a Moebius-loop of twisted logic that actually makes our point for us, thank you again.
The official Warren story has been disproven.
The Iran-Contra events and connections have been proven.
##
Taz suggests that I or “we” could sue the US government. The US Congress is supposed to oversee the Executive Branch but it is busy with its own corruption and malfeasance that it can’t and won’t say boo. The state security apparatus is now safely hidden inside corporations (which have some additional or different barriers to discovery and suit, or which are protected as agents of the state security apparatus). And, at any rate, the whole process of suing the government is fraught with risk, expense, etc., and apparently I don’t know where to find a lawyer. There is a TV show, though, called JAG.
##
The inference that Dr. Griffin is a serial disinformation agent that is a small part of some of that other material that Taz has posted is a flashback moment, isn’t it? It’s a slice of the CGCS wayback machine.
It goes back to the time when, probably from the very same off-site source, someone else suggested that the theologian was a neo-con” disinformation specialist.
I answered that back then, and so did the theologian, and it’s still being thrown out there like the mud that Taz accuses truthers of throwing because there isn’t any other way they can refute the many books he has written.
What happened back then, Tazvil04?
What was the outfall of all of that?
Are you looking for a sequel?
As has been discussed and described at too much length, it tore a huge hole in the CGCS community. It caused great trauma to this community.
Why is it being re-introduced now?
##
The state has the power, the courts, the lawyers, Congress, the media, the ability to spy on its own people, the tools to blackmail, the cash to pay people off, the science-propagandists, the armor-clad men of the Empire, the privatized police and the private armies and the closed-feedback loop between political support and corporate malfeasance, illegitimacy, and immorality, but the State is not on the right side of morality, freedom, integrity, justice or the law. It is not of the people, it is not by the people and it is no longer for the people.
The "de-bunking" and the refusal to see and acknowledge this stands in support of psychopaths and sociopaths who think nothing of rape, theft, fraud, abuse, degradation, destruction, murder, treason, and war crimes.
Vincent Salandria: "I'm afraid we were misled. All the critics, myself included, were misled very early. I see that now. We spent too much time and effort microanalyzing the details of the assassination when all the time it was obvious, it was blatantly obvious that it was a conspiracy. Don't you think that the men who killed Kennedy had the means to do it in the most sophisticated and subtle way? They chose not to. Instead, they picked the shooting gallery that was Dealey Plaza and did it in the most barbarous and openly arrogant manner. The cover story was transparent and designed not to hold, to fall apart at the slightest scrutiny. The forces that killed Kennedy wanted the message clear: 'We are in control and no one - not the President, nor Congress, nor any elected official - no one can do anything about it.' It was a message to the people that their Government was powerless."
As that previously-noted veteran researcher put it:
QUOTE
No more "debate" on questions long answered.
No more collegiality to the enemy.
We hold the moral and historical high ground.
No more collegiality to the enemy.
We hold the moral and historical high ground.
I will follow those suggestions and endeavor to do as little damage to the CGCS community as possible.
It has also been suggested that by several people that I continue to play pattycake with you, but I am going to refrain from that, for several reasons:
1) I have better things to do with my time;
2) I don’t wish to create any more damage to the CGCS community than is already being done by its members;
3) The questions have been answered to my satisfaction; you and everyone else are content to go on with your own conclusions, purposes and tactics;
4) Given the death and destruction being brought to the world and now even US citizens by the US state security apparatus (talk about paranoia??!), I don’t need to be collegial with them or those who support them, or what it stands in support of;
5) The readers and the American citizenry get to keep what they continue to support, and they get to keep their co-responsibilities, and they get to answer for what it produces under their flag in ways that cannot yet be foreseen.
Pontius Pilate was able to wash his hands, and you all can do the same.
Today we even have Purrell.
Good night. Sleep tight. Don’t let the bedbugs byte.



