As I was at church today, I'm Catholic still very angry over the not so subtle endorsement of the "pro life" candidates I thought the best way to protest or get to them is to stop giving them money. I'm not at the point of not going to church but I'm about at the point of withholding my money from them. If others who feel like I do did the same this would hurt the church where it matters. The next time they say "we need $ for this or that" I'll say stop being single issue people and let the "pro lifers" pay for it. The Catholic church spoke out against the war all the time and then when it came to the election they still supported W. Life begins at conception and ends at birth to them.

I think we need to mobilize Catholics and other members of other faiths who do not like the way their churches have turned to protest their churches.

Write to your pastors/ministers. I'm going to write the Pope even. My objection is they allowed their anti-gay, anti-abortion views to cloud the larger issue of the corruption and lies in the Bush administration. If Hitler were anti-abortion and anti-gay, should people have voted for him regardless of his other actions? Apparently yes in the eyes of today's churches. They must be called down for their failure to look at the larger issues.

I have to find the name of the fellow who was on a CNN show who said that it is the greater good that is what should concern Catholics. He should be our leader in this.

One of the sad things about this stance is that Hitler was actually anti-gay (though only anti-abortion in the case of those pairings he saw as racially desirable).

"Homosexuality is the mark of Cain, of a godless and soulless culture which is sick to the core. The teaching of the youth to appreciate the value of the community, derives its strongest inner power from the truths of Christianity. For this reason, it will always be my special duty to safeguard the right and free development of the Christian school and the Christian fundamentals of all education." -Adolf Hitler

Muleman is not Catholic - but understands your frustration. How does one maintain his or her faith, adhere to Scripture, and still find his or her way through the maze of contemporary Christian dogma?

At the risk of alienating anyone, what I'd like you all to know is that not all churches can be categorized that way. Please no broadbased attacks - we have alot of people on the forum who attend church on a regular basis and we shouldn't put them in a position of having to defend their beliefs - they are with you. The folks who are here deserve consideration. Please don't turn them off or turn them away.

For the most part, churches do what churches do, take in money for on-going expenses, new programs, youth activities, and funnel some out for mission work in countries all over the world. The ones you hear about, where the priest, or preacher or whoever is telling them what's right and what's wrong, are in the minority. They are a vocal minority though. Most of us think that church and state should remain separate for the greater good of the church. Once the congreation starts splitting up into us and them, that church no longer functions as it was intended to.

Thanks for listening.

I myself go to church every day which I will continue doing, however I don't think I want to continue financially supporting a group of people I don't agree with. I can give my money to my food bank or similar charity instead that doesn't go supporting the enemy.

Cursillo Movement - look it up at the non-evangelical bookshops, I think the Catholics will have some small books about it in stock.

It is our only hope.

Read in the paper today Arlen Specter is NOT going to appoint judges who will help anti-abortionists. Surprised? Not me. I warned everyone. Someone warned me so I got on to this.
Now the right wingers feel betrayed. Should I cry or laugh? Bush has always backed him against the true foe of abortion Pat Toomey. Look at Arlen's career. Have you got a Who's Who. IT might be worth investing in one, or whatever your equivalent in the USA is.

I am anti abortion but think it has to be done the right way, people must vote it out themselves.
They have been deceived by B. But the Pennsylvanian right wingers, or even just the educated Baptist etc have seen through B in time. And they seem to have avoided any election fraud. I believe so at least.

Going to church is not necessarily a qualification of being a good Christian, it only proves you are a good church-goer. I do not mean to offend any good Christians who also go to church but in some countries, it is well known that going to church is positively dangerous for your security.
Some of the greatest prophets, if not all, were thrown out of their synagogues, and in these days are thrown out of their churches. I met one. I used to be against the House Churches of the UK because they showed a dislike of Catholics, the ones I met.

In future the hope is that we go for real unity, not a one based on one or two narrow issues tht have always been around and always will and have got used against us because Karl Rove etc deceived the good people. Catholics must study Vatican 2 in more detail, and study their bibles like mad. And then the Cursillo Movement is an outreach to the community that disregards peoples' Faith, and is all about being humans on the same shared planet.

Why was the gay issue used? to try and falsely unite Christians who in actual fact share very little, like evangelicals and Catholics. Jesus only used the Sodom and Gomorrah story to show that if the signs given to those Christians he met had been given in S and G then they would have been saved. He gives us signs and we ignore them, that makes us hypocrites. He asks us to use our wisdom, to gain knowledge of better depth than RLimbo and other right wingers. It was the fact that the Rich man did not KNOW about the beggar that made him condemned in God's sight.
Evangelistic leaders say that reading newspapers is bad.

Sorry for any generalizations, some evangelists voted for Kerry. Thank you to them for being so astute.

Write a letter and put it in the collection plate. Write to your bishop and state exactly why your money will go to Catholic Relief Service instead of to the diocese.
And give to Relief Services.

For many people religion provides a healthy means of self-expression
like any other art form and many churches provide healthy social structures for community development but neither are absolutely
essential for opperating constitutional democracies. Unfortunately much
of the religious practice in today's world has more negative impact on human experience than positive. We need to become more aware of
how the culture interacts with human development. In the process of self-in-situation adaptation human beings create themselves and their
culture.

My personal belief as a Christian is that Jesus Christ allowed His followers to CHOOSE to follow him, He did not force anyone to follow him. The neo conservative Christians want to force their views on everyone. The separation of church and state must remain so! I practice Christianity on my own, because of the involvement of many of the Churches in government doings. The true Christian realizes that their Master's Kingdom is not of this world. Check out a website called christiansagainstbush.com You will see what I mean!

I 'M ALSO CATHOLIC AND VERY SOCIAL JUSTICE....I WROTE TO NATIONAL CATHOLIC PRIESTS LIKE FATHER PAVONE TRYING TO PRESENT THE CASE AGAINST BUSHES GOVERNMENT SUPPORTED POVERTY, STRESS, WAR ENVIRONMENT AND CAPITAL PUNISHMENT NOT AIDING FAMILIES IN PREVENTING ABORTION.....I GOT BACK MUCH RHETORIC CONCERNING THE VALIDITY OF WAR AND THE PRO-LIFE STANCE OF BUSH AND THE NEED BASED ON IT BEING A SIN, NOT TO VOTE FOR KERRY!!!!! .......

VERY IMPORTANT :::::DO A SEARCH ON "DEAL HUDSON".
..PLEASE LET ME KNOW BY POSTING WHAT YOU THINK...THANKS

HE WAS EDITOR OF THE "CRISIS MAGAZINE" HE WAS BUSHES CATHOLIC INSIDER....AND HE HAS A VERY QUESTIONABLE PAST...STEPPED DOWN FROM "CRISIS" AND BUSHES ADMIN. BECAUSE OF SCANDAL....HE, HUDSON..CONDUCTED SURVEYS FOR BUSH ON "LANGUAGE AND ACTIONS CATHOLICS WHO ATTEND MASS WILL RESPOND TO". PRESSURED BISHOPS WITH EXPOSURE IN "CRISIS MAG" AND USED IT FOR INTIMIDATION.,,,I BELIEVE HE HELPED SECURE THE CATHOLIC VOTE AND HE WAS ONE OF THE FIRST TO PUSH FOR KERRY NOT TO RECEIVE COMMUNION.

IF ANYONE KNOWS OF FATHER PAVONE ...I AM GOING TO CONTINUE TO WRITE HIM ASKING IF HIS PUSH FOR BUSH HAS MET EXPECTATIONS. CATHOLICS SHOULD, IN TIME, BRING THIS QUESTION BACK TO THEIR PASTORS AND WRITE LETTERS.....POINTING OUT THE FACT THAT WORDS (FROM BUSH) AND TRUTH ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. ALSO, BUSHES SOCIAL JUSTICE AGENDA DOES NOT MATCH THE BEATITUDES WHISH JESUS HANDED DOWN: REMEMBER..."BLESSED ARE THE PEACEMAKERS..."

I THINK BUSH CAMPAIGNED FOR ARLENE SPECTOR SO HE COULD USE HIM AS AN EXCUSE TO NOT HAVE TO ADDRESS ABORTION ISSUES. YET HE (BUSH)USED THE ISSUE TO GET VOTES. I VOTED MY OWN CONSCIENCE!

ALSO SEARCH WWW.BLACKBOXVOTING.ORG OUR VOTE WAS STOLEN

The Cursillos Movement www.cts-online.org.uk
There may be an equivalent one in your local Church(es) if you shop around.

The crucial difference in the way some cardinals/Priests interferred in the election is rather important, it is one thing to say *War is bad therefore we do not support it....children are not learning therefore we must fight to better their education....we should all help were it's possibly to help those less fortunantly...* It's overly simplistic i know, but when church leaders says *You shall not vote for a man who is pro-choise becourse then you are voting against Church/God* The difference is very important not least seen from a legal standpoint. Becourse whit those kind off sentences the church automaticaly interferred DIRECTLY whit the election process which is illigal as pr the constitution, not that they may not say it, but the minute they do that, their church forefeit their tax eksempt status becourse now they are a political organization.

I am very much in agreement with the above statement.
Organized religeon creates an environment much like Iraq, in that the enemy will flow into a region, causing more conflict than peace.

In the church there is spiritual conflict. This is the most spiritually dangerous place to be in a lot of cases.

In fact, I was recently a victim of someone's interpretation of my marriage. Being a woman, working in the creative media dept. at my church, which is headed up my a man with a messiah complex.

If I were not very spiritually strong, I could not truly detect who the real enemy was. I would have submitted to his idea of who the enemy was.

The very sad thing is this: sometimes people who would like to have best intentions, are not discerning God's intentions.

I like the idea of a letter in the collection plate, however why not go a bit farther. Surely their are other churches where you could attend mass...

For some people that church is an enclave.
A womb against a world they seem less able to understand. So instead of emerging from the womb & coping as an adult, it gets pulled snuggly about some people.

As it was for Koresh & Jim Jones. As it is for Amish communities, except this involves some who have a desire to colonize the rest of society as a function of their work.

When your whole live is surrounded by only like-minded people, its easy to forget that we are a broader society.

Indeed, the only discussion is of being CHRISTIAN enough, which in itself is ominous.
It sounds a little Taliban-ish.

Its such a rife community for insidious manipulators to pull the strings & direct the aganda.

But are we playing into more of the Rovian noise - accepting this nonsense of Faith-Based vs Reality-Based? The spinners get to define the terms & the populace, us included, have become so trained by advertising that we "rinse & repeat?"

Negatives work. Playing on people's fears works. This is more of the game reinforced by people that are ultra-religious & those that aren't, or aren't as dominated by their religion as we buy the product.

Ask the right questions of us all.

While we're on the topic of taking action against the church, does anyone here have any idea of how to get a letter to the Roman Catholic Pope? (John Paul II) I've been looking for contact info, but haven't been able to find any. I'm not even certain he takes letters from people who aren't clergy or heads of state.

I'm not Roman Catholic at this time, but I grew up in that religion and many of his recent statements about homosexuality have really made me want to write him a long, detailed, respectful letter challenging his preconceptions and showing him the situation through the eyes of someone who is living in a comitted relationship with another man.

m not a catholic however, but I do attend church services.I think George Bush should be ashamed of himself using religious groups to help him get elected! I recently Wrote Jerry Falwell a letter and told him that supporting a man like George Bush was anti christian! George Bush has done more than any person I know to hurt the poor people of this country and he calls himself a Christian? What does christian mean? It means to be Christ like. Christ went about doing good to the poor not hurting them! We do need christian people in the white house we dont need hypocrits!

I don't mean to offend you, but Jerry Falwell doesn't strike me as very Christian himself. Just read his reaction to 9/11:

"The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America, I point the finger in their face and say: you helped this happen."

My first visit has been an interesting read. Thank you to all.

As undersandable it is to read about people's disappointment with believers and religious groups in this last election, a lot can be learned and applied in the coming months and years ahead.

As a Catholic who generally buys into the whole program, I think people who take their faith seriously really dislike their faith being abused by others. In my mind, Bush and many of his most radical supporters are planting the seeds of their own demise. You can only be dishonest so long where a devout person begins to question supporting people with low integrity.

I think the discussion needs to move on from people's disappointment to how do we co-opt people of faith and show that the conservative vision is not the only way to the light. People who care about abortion and marriage issues may never come to agree with many reading this site, but they can agree on social justice and the larger issues all the great faiths are built upon.

We have given the extreme right of this country a free-ride with people of faith and the time now has come to engage the debate. I would not quit one's church, withold money or act in ways that will cause people to put their defenses up. I would ask and argue that we need to be the indespensible members of each parish, stake of church. When that happens, our ideas and the love that under pins them will say much more that Karl Rove of any of his friends.

I agree with you - I was just trying to say don't lump all together. We lost a couple of members because they wanted the pastor to speak out against abortion and gay marriage and he would not bring politics into our church precisely because it's devisive and it isn't what the church should be about.