Turkey will become a victim.

Tensions Between Turkey and the West Increase
New York Times
By DAN BILEFSKY ISTANBU
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/28/world/eu...urkey.html?_r=1


Relations Between Turkey, Israel Continue to Falter
Voice of America
By Dorian Jones For more than a decade Turkey and Israel have enjoyed close military cooperation including joint naval exercises that have taken place since …
http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-10-27-voa61.cfm


US report: Turkey imposes restrictions on religious expression
Today’s Zaman
A country report on Turkey, prepared as part of an annual report on international religious freedom drafted by the US State Department, has pointed out that …
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/news-191...expression.html

Iran hails Turkey’s nuclear support
Aljazeera.net
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Iran’s president, has said that he "appreciates" the support shown by Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey’s prime minister, over Tehran’s …
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2...1739736523.html

Turkey? A Victim? Chills me right down to my Laylah Zana Kurdish heart!

Imagine all the victims of the Turks crying over Turkey's "victimization"? I don't think so.

Most Turks are good people, but their Ataturk mentality and nationalism has been been a thorn in the side of just about every one of their neighbors for decades.

Given the USA, Turkey and Israel, which two are most alike and most different from the third?

They are future victims of the EU which they desperately want to join but will be forever stalled from doing so BECAUSE OF ISLAMOPHOBIA.

So they did a 180 and are now looking east.

Can you blame them?

I'm still trying to decide this riddle...Help me out here Heart...

The difference is that Turkey elicits sympathy even if they have committed genocide, won't admit it, oppress everyone, won't allow anyone to speak Kurdish or even wear red/white and yellow at the same time, and just this year arrested children for singing (only 1 out 0f 18 songs) at a concert in the US in Kurdish. My friend who was their choral mistress had an arrest warrant issued for her and was sentenced to 7 years in prison in absentia for allowing the kids to sing this song in their reportoire. Her family has been ostracized and they will never be allowed to leave Turkey, and her father will never be promoted, because their daughter is a traitor ....and it must be their fault, all over a song! But the people who don't like Israel, and others who criticize the US will actually find Turkey to be somehow the same as the other two?

Turkey is not a victim of Islamophobia, it's a beneficiary of Turkophilia!

Thanks, I'm even more ignorant about Turkey than I am about Israel. I do have an interest in learning about both...

Turkey and Israel are mid-sized countries whereas the US is large...

Turkey and the US lag in educational achievement whereas Israel escells in educational achievement...

Israel and the US produces and exports arms much more than Turkey...

(please make additional comparisons using this format)

The EU feels different. Check out southern France, which is mostly Muslim. And the French don't like it.

Or the east end of London.

Or Germany, Netherlands.

They have taken in a lot of Muslim immigrants in the last 20 years. If Turkey gets in the EU, more will come.

I think Turkey, which has been on good behavior, and a friend of Israel (to its own detriment in the Muslim world) has finally done the math.

If Turkey were allowed in the EU, capital floww would increase into Turkey and hense some migration from Europe
to Turkey might occur plus Turkey might get some of the present migration from Africa to Europe...

This is the size of Turkey relative to the size of Israel, they are not mid-size countries. Turkey is a mid-size country



Compared to the US, Turkey is a mid-size country



Map drawn to scale shows Israel relative to the size of the US. Israel takes up the size of New Jersey or Connecticut depending on how you define boundaries.

Military Expentitures US Dollars
1 United States ------- 663,700,000,000------------------- for year 201022
2. European Union-------312,259,000,000-------------------------- 2008-2009
3 China-----------------70,308,600,000------------------------------- 2009
4 UK ------------------ --65,149,500,000 ------------------------FY 2009-10

4 Japan Japan 48,860,000,000 2008[6]
5 France France 47,421,250,000 2010[7] [8]
6 Germany Germany 45,930,000,000 2008[9]
7 Italy Italy 40,050,000,000 2008[10]
8 Russia Russian Federation 36,000,000,000 2010[11]
9 India India 32,700,000,000 2009-2010[12]
10 Iraq Iraq 32,400,000,000 2009[citation needed]
11 Saudi Arabia Saudi Arabia 31,050,000,000 2008[13]
12 South Korea South Korea 28,500,000,000 2008[14]
13 Brazil Brazil 23,972,836,012 2009[15]
14 Australia Australia 23,040,500,000 2009-10[16]
15 Canada Canada 19,038,161,370 2009-2010[17][18]
16 Spain Spain 18,974,000,000 2008 (est.)[19]
17 Turkey Turkey 14,000,000,000 2009 [20]
18 Israel Israel 13,300,000,000 2009[21]
19 Netherlands Netherlands 12,000,000,000 2008[22]
20 Poland Poland 11,791,000,000 2009[23]
21 Republic of China Republic of China (Taiwan) 10,500,000,000 2008
22 Greece Greece 7,934,000,000 2007[24]

Continued http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...ry_expenditures

World's largest arms exporters

The unit in this table are so-called trend indicater values expressed in millions of US dollars. These values do not represent real financial flows but are a crude instrument to estimate volumes of arms transfers, regardless of the contracted prices, which can be as low as zero in the case of military aid. Ordered by descending 2007 values.
Current Rank ↓ Supplier ↓ 2000 ↓ 2001 ↓ 2002 ↓ 2003 ↓ 2004 ↓ 2005 ↓ 2006 ↓ 2007 ↓ 2008 ↓
1 United States USA 7505 5801 4984 5581 6616 7026 7821 7454
2 Russia Russia 4190 5631 5458 5355 6400 5576 6463 4588
3 Germany Germany 1622 825 910 1707 1017 1879 2891 3395
4 France France 1033 1235 1342 1313 2267 1688 1586 2690
5 Ukraine Ukraine 280 649 440[11] 530[11] 600[12] 700 1000[13] 1395[13]
6 Netherlands Netherlands 259 192 243 342 218 611 1575 1355
7 United Kingdom UK 1356 1116 772 624 1143 871 978 1151
8 South Korea South Korea 100 240 140 140 410 260 260 844
9 Italy Italy 192 224 407 321 216 787 860 562
10 Sweden Sweden 46 7 120 158 73 116 803 529
11 Israel Israel 308 850 125 468 287 536 472 414
12 People's Republic of China China PR 228 498 544 553 271 223 564 355
13 Canada Canada 83 129 182 279 305 193 227 343
14 India India 4 6 18 17 35 75 105 266[14]
15 Serbia Serbia N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A 32,6 71.6 191.3[15]
16 Czech Republic Czech Republic 80 54 73 94 112 109 117 238[16]
17 Switzerland Switzerland 104 120 109 139 201 166 144 211
18 Bulgaria Bulgaria N/A N/A N/A 250[17] N/A 190[18] 149[19] 192[20]
19 Spain Spain 321 298 365 309 533 244 258 238

rla: Can you show me a chart or something on educational access and achievement in these three countries?

I'm pretty sure the access is the same in Israel and US, but not in Turkey.

Achievement, you may be correct, but I can't find the statistics.

Thanks!

BTW: Turkey is the darling of the Right for EU membership.
Israel is, as far as I can tell, in favor of Turkey's membership in the EU

I am not, though not as stridently as many.

Israel and Turkey have been very very close over the years. Now, suddenly, Israel was dis-invited to participate in some military exercises, the excuse being "abuses" in the Gaza action by Israel.

What this all means is unknown, except (IMHO) I think Turkey is moving more to the Islamic East and away from the non-Islamic West.

Turk politicians, like our politicians like to optimize their leverage as brokers...

rla, can you give me stats on educational achievment and access on those countries? I gave you the other stuff, but you didn't even say nothin!

My Google search wasn't productive...we had this info on one of the Education threads but I haven't found it yet.

C'mon rla, my google search was long too, but I did it to provide you with info. Surely you can do the same. You are the one that made the assertion.

The dog peed on my homework...

My thought was to provide a format where several of us could share our off the top of our head comparisons as a
baseas of discussion...this format has been used as a tool in the cognitive sciences...

Here is a link to the Human Development Index. Go to #8 on the index page See Also line and you
will find links to Index the countries on several dimensions including Education:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/wikiHuman_Development_Index

Education
1 - Austrailia,Denmark, Finland tied

19 - USA

34. Israel

105 - Turkey

175 - Niger

Happiness
Colombia - 6

Israel - 67

Turkey - 83

USA - 114

Zimbabwe - 166

To Heart:

I want you to know I'm trying...

Sorry rla, I didn't see this before now.

OK, so on the Education Index

The US is 19th just above Kazakhstan.

Israel is number 34, just above Argentina

And Turkey is 105 just above the UAE

That doesn't square with your assertion that "Turkey and the US lag in educational achievement whereas Israel escells in educational achievement..."

On all of the accounts where you looked for differences and similarities, your predetermined viewpoints trumped factual analysis. It's nothing I do particularly "For Israel" though there is some of that, it is because so many people make assumptions that are simply based on preconceived notions.

My general statement came from something I had recently read on the education of scientists and engineers showing how the US was rapidily losing ground and Israel was an example of a country that rising rapidily in rank.

It is true that I am angry about what Israel has become. I'm also angry about what the US has
become...

I think I'm angry about what all powerful countries seem to become to get power and to keep it.

Israel does have more scientists and engineers as a percentage of the population than any other country, in fact there are more books written and read there than any other place as a percentage of the population (maybe excluding Iceland). But, because the population is one of immigrants there is a constant influx of those who need educating and that can't be easy even if they do have a reasonable score.

Turkey has some very smart people.....and I'll tell you what ("I'll tell you what"... full stop, is a full sentence in the South isn't it?) If it hadn't been for a few Turkish students I may have never passed a few classes. They studied very hard and aren't afraid of doing presentations either.