I bring this topic up... on behalf of our neighbors and friends. I am not Gay; I'm happily married and have a young son. I'm no blue blood liberal by any means.

This whole Gay marriage thing is the biggest crock I've ever heard. I thought that the Church decrees a marraige and the state identifies the union, but thats not my point.....

I want to come out here and say that I see gay couples in church, having families and raising children.

While I can not understand what makes people the way they are, I certainly respect them for caring about the neighborhood, the church, family and society.

While a lot of politians want to stir up fear through ignorance... I want to say that you may not agree with a persons identity... they still warrent respect and they still have rights.

Check out this op-ed in the Washington Post today:

A Few Rights, Please

By Gordon P. Phelps

Sunday, November 7, 2004; Page B07

Dear America:

Now that you've had a chance to catch your breath, we really need to take a moment and reflect on what has occurred.

I'm sorry to say this, but you've been lied to about who I am and what exactly I am about. You were told some mistruths, such as that I, a gay citizen, want to change your laws and religious definitions of marriage and force churches to marry same-sex couples. Also, that I am assaulting the very fabric of our nation, that I want to marry two, three or more persons or even an animal or two.

You were told this by partisan politicians who unfortunately were not interested in your well-being, nor mine, nor anyone's but their own. Many different parties debated anxiously over this issue: the media, politicians, judicial bodies, to name a few.

Yet strangely, during all of this, no one asked me: "Gay Citizen, what exactly is it that you want?"

As after the fact as it may be, I think you really deserve to hear the truth. The truth is: I don't want to change your or anyone else's religion. What your faith believes in and promotes is between you and your congregation and your God/Yahweh/Allah/etc. Yes, even if that includes condemning homosexuality and refusing to "marry" same-sex couples. I am saddened to say you were manipulated into believing otherwise, and politicians used your religious faith to do so.

The truth is: The only things I want are the same simple legal -- not religious -- responsibilities and rights that the rest of you get to enjoy without question. The right to share my life responsibilities with the person of my choosing without interference. Joint ownership of property. The ability to make a will that cannot be contested or nullified. The right to designate legal and medical powers of attorney. The right to purchase health insurance for a partner at no different cost than that required for a spouse. And yes, just like you, the responsibility to pay no more than my fair share of income tax when in a committed relationship with one other person. The list of rights and responsibilities that mixed-gender couples have that I am denied is actually much longer; I'd just rather not belabor the point here.

So, does that sound like I want to "change the fabric of the nation"? Does wanting these responsibilities make me the "greatest threat to the United States since communism?" I've served 13 years in the military and five years as a law enforcement officer in my community. Exactly what type of threat to our nation am I? But you were told I was a threat, and somehow you believed it.

Now that you've heard from me, and not some politician, what it is I actually desire, do you really feel that threatened? And would granting me the same responsibilities you and yours enjoy without question truly rend the fabric of our nation asunder?

I believe deep inside you know what the answer is, and, yes, I'd be angry too if I'd been manipulated like that. That manipulation is a greater threat to your faith and our nation than I ever could be. Thanks for listening.

The writer is a resident of Falls Church.

There's nothing wrong with being a liberal and I don't think anybody thinks you're gay for posting in the GLBT issues room. Thanks for the info, though.

You're exactly right. It really is a good point.

THANK YOU for making them feel welcome and comfortable doing that.

Not that I don't view you as an ally, but how can you not "agree with a person's identity" and respect them? If I have something against black people, I am a bigot. If you have something against gay people, you are a bigot. I hate how people act like they aren't really bigots and talk about "identies" instead of PEOPLE.

So let me attempt to rephrase..... that part of your lifestyle (identity) ... well I don't understand it never have. That doesn't mean I feel ill will against you. I'll leave it at that.

It's ok that you don't necessarily understand what a gay person's orientation is to their identity. They did not choose to be gay. They just are. Just as I'm sure you didn't make a choice to be straight. You just are. People who think that it is a 'lifestyle choice' are sadly misled. At what point in their lives did they choose their sexual orientation?

I'm in a slightly different situation, being bisexual. And while some may say that I have a choice, let me put it this way. I can be attracted to someone of either gender. I can choose whether to act on that or not. Just as any straight person can choose to act on an attraction to a person of the opposite gender. But the straight person would not naturally be attracted to someone of their own gender, so they are never faced with the choice of whether to try to pass themselves off as something they are not. So, should I try to pass as straight, or should I be honest about who I am? It's a matter of integrity. Should I be punished for being honest?

It took me a long time to come out to friends and family as bi. I'm still not out at work, although I wouldn't be suprised if some folks have figured it out. Maybe the sticker on my car from the Freedom to Marry Coalition will give them a clue. It's a little sticker, so they wouldn't notice it unless they are up close. But in the wake of this election, it's my little way of telling the right wing to Bite Me.

I appreciate the sentiments from the orginal poster. While he does not understand my lifestyle, he does not condem me either. I can accept that. It sure beats what we are getting from shrub and his croonies and even from some people in our own party.

Thank you SFC_White. I live in a red state surrounded by intolerance. I appreciate that someone can be tolerant without necessarily understanding.

So you say.




That's not accurate. Marriage has been a state issue as long as states have written laws, and probably long before that. The oldest known written law, the Law of Hamarabi, contains many laws defining marriage and the respective rights of husbands, wives and children. The state has a very strong and valid reason to protect families and support the bearing and raising of children. Marriage is the age old way that states do that obligation.





Wrong again. Perhaps you need to go take a class in basic biology. Gay couple do not have children. Then can take children away from the child's natural parent(s) but can not bear their own. Protecting children and ensuring their rights to their own parents is a concern of the state as well as of good people.




People who care about the family and society do not actively seek to destroy the institution of marriage which forms safe families for the breeding and raising of our children. Pretending that marriage is some kind of government benefits program, or a "civil righst" issue instead of an insititution to encourage and support the creation of children is anti family and anti society.





Yes, the Kerry/Domocrat campaign focused strongly on stiring up fear. Fear is a staple of the left. Fear of the draft. Fear of poor medical care. Fear of failing Social Security. False fear mongering is a mainstay of leftist politics.

Most peole, including most Republicans, don't have any desire to persecute gays nor force them to be anything they are not. Most people would have no issues with gays if there wasn't such an active gay lobby and legal campaign trying to put gay education in schools, overturn the institution of marriage in many states, force social groups like BSA to accept gay leaders for our children, etc. It's not the religious right nor the average middle American who has started a fight with gays. Live and let live. Live in peace. Love whom you will, but don't attack our children or our families. Take a Darwin Award and have a nice life.

Bob

He never even implied that they biologically had children. Nevermind the fact that lesbian couples CAN and DO have biological children. I even know gay guys with children from previous relationships with women.
You're beginning to sound anti-gay, and anti-family and anti-society.
Uh, the only fear I felt was another Bush administration. At least they weren't being disengenuous when talking about things people SHOULD really be concerned about, instead of worrying about a bunch of queers taking down society when they ALREADY live as if they were married- just without the rights and equality.
HAHAHA, you are delusional.
BULLSHIT, you damned repuke.
Tell me how in the HELL is fighting for rights for OUR families threatening your families. TELL ME!

Bob, you're a BIGOT.

Wow. I'm sorry your marriages and children are so fragile, that the mere presence of a gay couple could undermine them.

They can take children away from the child's natural parent(s)? There has not been one instance in which a loving, caring mother and father have had their child taken from them and given to a gay couple. What I will grant you is that some children who have had abusive parents or lost their parents or had parents that didn't want them. Those children have been placed in orphanages and have found loving, caring families some of whom are gay couples. Why you want to rob children of knowing that they are loved and cared for is beyond me, and not very "Christian" in my view.

Good luck with the fear with which you live.

I had to go through and read a few of Bobx23456's posts because I just could not bring myself to believe that someone could be so incredibly ill-informed about reality.

Then I began finding comments from him like this one -
"Nobody forces woman to get pregnant and have a child. "

Are you for real, Bobx23456? Do you honestly believe this to be true? Please don't tell me you are of the mindset that a woman who is raped "really wanted it."

Then we find gems like this one -
"The whole Roe v. Wade issue won't be resolved until there are equal reproductive rights for men as well as women. It's find to demand "rights for women" but those will eventually fail politically until there are equivalent "rights for men." The whole concept of equal reproductive rights are far from thinkable for those who demand "women's rights," but unless some concession to equality is made the current exclusive rights that women have will be taken away to restore equal rights. "

If men want equal reproductive rights, let them start taking responsibility for birth control. Perhaps when men stop whining that condoms "decrease their pleasure" and stop insisting that women ingest a pill every day of their lives which causes blood clots, bloating, weight gain and a host of other really crappy side-effects, we'll get the unplanned pregnancy rate decreased. Perhaps you should direct some of your energy into demanding that pharmecutical companies get a male birth control pill on the market - then you can deal with the side-effects and we can stop killing ourselves. If birth control is a woman's responsibility because she is the one who gets pregnant - then what choices she makes when she ends up pregnant are also hers.

As for your numerous comments about marriage being all about raising and protecting children -

I see just how well that has worked out for the hundreds of thousands of children in foster-care and orphanages globally. I wonder how many of those children were born in the first place because some guy didn't want to wear a condom?

Where do your ideas about marriage, families and children fit when it comes to heterosexual couples who are unable to conceive, or who do not feel capable of raising a child? Are they less of a family?

And where, exactly, do you see thousands of heterosexual couples lining up to adopt those unwanted kids I mentioned above? The ones who aren't the "right color," or the "right hair color," or who face a lifetime of dealing with a disability - you know, all those children born of heterosexual relationships.

Those kids in orphanages and foster care sure as heck didn't end up there as a result of two men having sex together, since procreation in that situation is impossible. No, most of them are there because two heterosexuals were irresponsible about their sexual practices, or made extremely poor parenting decisions, or did not become educated about birth control, or decided to believe some line of crap about birth control being a sin, or couldn't have an abortion because some man decided they couldn't - or for a host of other reasons, which are endless - but they all began with the sperm of a man meeting up with the egg of a woman.

That's the situation your "family values" have created. And it is the situation that OUR "family values" can help fix. Thousands of GLBT couples would give anything to be able to adopt one of these children, to provide them with a Loving, nurturing home environment - but apparently, that is less preferable to people like you than letting those kids rot away in hell holes.

My nephew was adopted out of one of those hell holes, and I thank God that my brother and sister-in-law were able to bring him home into a Loving, stable environment where he could receive the upbringing he deserves. I also know of several Loving, stable GLBT couples who were denied the same chance - some of whom had been together many years longer than my siblings. The reality is that it isn't my GLBT friends who were denied a chance - it was the little children who remain in that dump to this day, losing hope with each day that passes because they are beyond the age of being "desireable" as adoptees. I grieve for them.


Nice family values you've got there, pal.

I couldn't agree more. Sometimes it is difficult to articulate all of those points, but your post is awesome and I'll use some of your points next time I have a debate with somebody... I'm sure you won't mind.

Thanks Jake

I do want to add for the benefit of other posters that I am by no means trying to assert the following:

a) That all men or even most men refuse to wear condoms.
That there is anything "wrong" with heterosexuals.
c) That I, by any means, addressed every reason why children end up in foster care/orphanages.
d) That every child in foster care or orphanages is there because of irresponsible acts.
e) Or that every foster home or orphanage is a bad place, or an awful place to be raised.

It is my belief that a Loving, stable environment can be provided by nearly any "family permutation" we can dream up - including single-parent households, children being raised by grandparents, older siblings, etc. It is also my belief that homosexual couples will one day prove to be an extremely important and integral part of the solution which will, I pray, erradicate the problem of children being raised in institutions or poorly funded and poorly screened foster homes. I also believe that one of the primary obstacles to the realization of this dream are attitudes like the ones held by Bobx23456.

Except when they flaunt their heterosexuality. I have no problems with straight people, but I don't want to see it. :D (I'm kidding).

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!