Per Charly Reese, there will be no peace in Palestine.
Reese

Gee my BIL likes me! and he loves the US even became a citizen here. Said it was one of the best days in his life.

Jonnap: Your article over-uses the issue as much as it can POSSIBLY be over-used. In fact, it stretches it much more than bin Laden ever did. Do you know what bin Laden's initial declaration of war was about? Do you know what he and his followers want? Please answer, because these are very serious things indeed, and if you have not done so, please read the list of bin Laden's demands and ask yourself why it is that when the Pals and Isr's were sitting at Camp David, about to sign a peace as far as the world was concerned, bin Laden was plotting several terrorist attacks including 911?

Please see the topic: US alienating Muslims, because you will find more alienation amongst Muslims than anything else.

Please ask yourself what bin Laden wants, and what he wishes to put in place if he wins?

I can think of very few Muslims ANYWHERE in the world that WANT his revolution. In fact, more and more, they want freedom, not Sharia.

To bin Laden, everyone is a Zionist, including you and your family, and EVERY single person that does not observe Sharia to the letter of the law. He sees the relaxation of any of the strict "Taliban" type laws as apostacy, and therefore these are NOT Muslims to him. Because they are not Muslims to him, that means they can be killed without a thought...they are Kafir...non-believers.

You are probably absolutely offended by any evangelical forcing you to believe in God, Christ and every single thing that THEY believe in right? Well, then please clarify why you think that every Muslim wishes this for themselves? In this way, perhaps you can understand that the fighting is about a small group of people that want nothing to do with freedoms like having a women work, vote, or the right to speak because the Prophet said they did not have these rights. They want punishments to include the chopping off of hands, ears, and heads for any crime imaginable. They want to abolish televsion, and they think that no books need be studies except the Quran unless it is for business. They do not believe in elections or allowing the people do decide who rules them, because Allah dictated that their rulers would be the Holy Men, and they would only rule from the Quran. They believe in slavery, because the Prophet had slaves. They beleive a girl of 9 years old is responsible for her actions, and can be married off without regard to her feelings at all. It's the worst possible interpretation of Islam, and it is foolish to believe otherwise.

The one thing that Palestinians DO NOT WANT is to live as bin Laden would have them live.

Yes I know Bin Laden did not give one hoot about the Palestinean people, he hijacked the cause as a recruitment tool- the problem is IT WORKS. I do not think the global terrorism issue will end until the I/P issue ends, and maybe not even then. But there is NO chance of an end without this issure being resolved. And I really do not care who gives in on what and who gets what land but it can not be all Sharon's way.

I understand, but what your title topic says is "no wonder moslems hate us". Then the article says it's about the pal/isr and all the bad things the Brits did. Of course, he fails to say that the Arab League had a lot to do with that mess...that Jordan is occupied by Hashemites, that Iraq was drawn on a map and failed to give the 25 MILLION Kurds a country which meant they have been ethnically cleansed, bombed with gas at Halbja and several other times during the Anfal campaign and forbidden from wearing "green, yellow and white" at the same time (their flag colors) and forbidden from observing Kurdish customs, forbidden until recently from speaking Kurdish..I could go on and on with this. That Syria was also given to away to a Hashemite. The Syria occupies Lebanon. That these rulers take all of their people's money in oil funds or charity funds and stick it in swiss bank accounts and then blame all of their peoples problems on "the Zionist Entity". That Sudan is committing genocide in Darfur against Muslims and not a single Muslim country will do anything about it.

Then their is the Core and Gap problem outlined by Thomas Barnnet that you might want to see.

To say "why Muslims hate us" is absolutely misleading and loaded with enough hyberbole to satisfy any good Rove fan, but it's a "swift boat" tactic if their ever was one.

Hey, I'm not saying that the issue isn't a real problem, but the centrality of that problem is 3X as "manufactured" as the "values" issue that people say they voted on this year!

From bin Laden't 1996 declaration of war, about how easy it is to defeat America!

"But your most disgraceful case was in Somalia; where- after vigorous propaganda about the power of the USA and its post cold war leadership of the new world order- you moved tens of thousands of international force, including twenty eight thousands American solders into Somalia. However, when tens of your solders were killed in minor battles and one American Pilot was dragged in the streets of Mogadishu you left the area carrying disappointment, humiliation, defeat and your dead with you. Clinton appeared in front of the whole world threatening and promising revenge , but these threats were merely a preparation for withdrawal. You have been disgraced by Allah and you withdrew; the extent of your impotence and weaknesses became very clear. It was a pleasure for the "heart" of every Muslim and a remedy to the "chests" of believing nations to see you defeated in the three Islamic cities of Beirut , Aden and Mogadishu. "

There is most certainly tons of blame to go around and no it was not all Israel's doing. Seems the Brits are the real culprit in all of this. However we got here it has to be sorted out and except for the West Bank I don't see any movement on Israeli's part to exit the occupied territories. As you pointed out in an earlier post, lots of expensive real estate has been built on that occupied land and it is not likely to be handed over to the Palestinians.

BTW, I think the US folly in Iraq now exceeds the I/P conflict as a recruiting tool.

I think the boycott is the answer, AIPAC controls the congress and the WH so I do not see the government doing a thing. Enough people have to get sick of the way things are going and punch back where it hurts, the pocket book. Divestment of companies profiting from the occupation and a boycott of Jewish owned firms funding it from the US.

Then of course, you would also agree that the Palestinian cement company, owned by Abbas and Arafat, that sold the cement for the Israelis to build their wall should be boycotted too?

Should you find out that most of the companies and dictators of the Arab world have Israeli companies in their financial portfolios, should be boycotted too?

And what on earth makes you think that the Saudi's don't have a hell of a lot more sway in the US than AIPAC ever dreamed of having?

You do KNOW that the Arab American Institute is the 2nd most powerful ethnic lobbying group in D.C. don't you? And furthermore, that they combined, are only a fraction of the real lobbyists in D.C...because they are big multi-nationals like OIL companies and Building companies, many owned by Bin Laden's family right?

And he hated US troops (women especially) in SA etc. He hates our materialism. The problem is now he is recruiting Arabs who may not even agree with him on all issues but thay have joined forces against the common enemy and the I/P issue does fuel that, false as it may be.

Who is the largest PAC? I read it was first AARP then AIPAC. And I would love to see them all banned.

The pressure needs to be put on Israel, not Saudi or other countries, unless they need to kick in a bit of land too. The econimic pressure is to force an action Israel does not want to take, not punish those who profit just because they profit.

What can peace be based on with current mindsets? Israel wants all Arabs gone and the Arabs want all Jews gone. The USA wants 'Manifest Destiny' and the 'bin Ladens' want 'Monroe Doctrines'. We have today's muscle, they have tomorrow's demographics. One future democratic state is the answer but who will tie the bell on the cat?

Here are the lobbys that matter in the US:


Oil and energy
Homebuilding
Defense
Electronics
Motion Pictures
Radio
Telcom
Insurance
Commercial lending
Automobiles
Manufacturing
Transportation
Healthcare
NRA
AMA
AARP
ATL (trial lawyers)
Consolidated business organizations
Farming
Tobacco
Petrochemicals
Pharmaceutical
Labor unions

AIPAC is not in the top 100 in dollar contributions public or private nor is it in the top 50 lobbyists. (BTW Trent Lott is the 49th largest lobbyist to Congress).

http://www.opensecrets.org/pubs/big...pac/index.ihtml

In 2000 AIPAC spent 1,120,000 dollars out of approx 1.5 Billion dollars spent by all lobbyists, business and trade orgs and private firms and unions. Israeli companies particularly IAI and IMI spent <$240,000 total in the same period. Israeli banks spent $100,000 in lobbying as well.

This represents approx 0.1% of the total lobbying dollars spent.
*************************************************************

If you have information to the contrary please lead me to an unbiased source?

Yes, bin Laden will continue to use whatever means he has to recruit.

Question Jonnap....bin Laden does not want Israel to have any nation. Are you willing to say that 6 million Israelis must move to placate bin Laden?

You know a lot of people over there to state that as fact? Mainstream Israelis just want some peace, there's a sizable leftist movement over there. American Jews (the one's who supposedly have all the control) want the settlers out and the land turned over; Israel will lose US Jewish support if she does not comply.

I don't know who Charly Reece is but the only thing that strikes me as accurate is not ceding control of E. Jerusalem and his commentary isn't helpful at all, it's inflammatory. It's pretty well known that neither side is willing to budge on that one, so it's the last thing on the table. The only way to really be able to work out a negotiation for Jerusalem is to finalize everything else, put it into action and see if the BS stops. If/when there's evidence of peaceful co-existence, people will be willing to reconsider compromise on Jerusalem.

The difference between Abbas and Bargutti is that Abbas wants to negotiate things in stages and Barghutti wants a complete deal. That's really it, once you get passed the rhetoric.

Neither side trusts the other and Jerusalem is so contentious negotiations would never end for implementation to start. There's no other way to proceed but in stages, isn't an all or nothing approach (we negotiate everything as all) just going to maintain the status quo?

This from AIPAC itself: see press releases Nov.3, 2004



This from The Nation

There are many ways to measure the clout of a lobby and wherever AIPAC is moneywise it has lots of clout. Jay said in an earlier post that no one could get nominated as a Presidential candidate by either of the major parties without passing the "smell test" of the AIPAC. Since the Jews in this country comprise only 3% of the population it sounds like a powerful lobby to me.

Take the example of the Presb. Ch. divestment- 30+ members of congress descended on the church in a flash to tell them NOT to divest, all at the bidding of AIPAC.

So you can't prove the money, now your going to qualify it with "power" Sorry, but that's conjecture and OLD news.

Here were the top 10 contributors this year:
Top 10 donors: American Fedn of State, County & Municipal Employees $35,408,631
National Assn of Realtors $26,276,380
National Education Assn $24,170,353
Assn of Trial Lawyers of America $24,094,416
Communications Workers of America $22,601,816
Service Employees International Union $22,486,475
Intl Brotherhood of Electrical Workers $22,122,055
Laborers Union $21,899,082
American Medical Assn $21,774,021
Carpenters & Joiners Union $21,567,447

Based on data released by the FEC on Monday, October 25, 2004.

I'll bet most of it went to Dem's too.

I actually KNOW that most of the Jewish money in this country goes to Democrats. Which is weird if your whole thesis is to be believed.

I guess campaign finance reform can affect money right? So even if that were accomplished your unprovable assertion of "power" would still be intact. Gee...nothin like trying to prove a negative.

I'm very sure that ANY PAC wants THEIR people to think they have clout. Good PR, I would certainly claim to be "a most influential" too. But, the real money doesn't need too damn much "noise"

you should think who is exactly behind Bin Laden? Most of his followers are oblivious to the real purpetrators!

huh? I don't get what you are saying?

Even the JERUSALEM POST seems to understand the power of the lobby that is "a night flower"



And AIPAC is very much a Likudnik organization, and certainly is not "the Jewish Lobby" as this quote illustrates..


JP Article here

HAHA!

BTW: AIPAC doesn't actually give money. LOL.

Other smaller organizations do. The Jewish money in the US goes 67% to Democrats and 33% to Republicans. It's a drop in the bucket.

However, I suppose we could change that and switch support if you insist.

By and large, the American public takes the position of Israel over the terrorists acts of the Palestinians. That's just the truth.


But, here are the foreign PACS
http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/foreign.asp

Along with how much they give.

If you want to know why Jews have SOME SMALL MEASURE OF power in the US I will tell you.

1. We organize.
2. We don't give up, we're tenacious...like ummm me.
3. We are always the people who hold half the organizations together from election cycle to election cycle.
4. We live disproportionately in swing states, by accident.
5. We are, by and large, successful and willing to give money to the cause.

You have a lot more things to worry about besides Jewish giving LOL.

This has nothing to do with why Muslims do, or do not, hate Americans. The quest for oversimplification astounds me!

On the issue of Israel there is little difference between the Repub and Dem side- both strongly support the right of Israel to exist as do I. It is the R's unconditional support of Sharon and his tactics that is the difference and many Jews and Democrats DO NOT support what is gong on presently in Israel. And the global rise in anti-Semitism is a pretty good clue that the entire world is tired of his crap and intransigence. If he does not fully and honestly negotiate for a peacefull solution the trend will only accelerate. The "bad guy" is gone on the Palenstinian side, only one enemy of peace remaining.

My title relates to the futility of the peace effort; all lip service from Sharon and our government walking in lockstep with him.

From Wikipedia:

AIPAC also has critics, such as left-wing journalist Alexander Cockburn of Counterpunch. Critics say that often AIPAC uses propaganda and other tactics to silence and discredit critics of its views on Israel. They also say that AIPAC wields undue influence over Congress and pushes for policies that, contrary to their claims, more often than not benefit Israel and are not in the best interests of the United States. These critics believe that a combination of propaganda and large financial donations to congressional campaigns from AIPAC members (AIPAC does not contribute directly to political campaigns) are the underlying reasons for the strong support of its views in Congress. Critics such as Cockburn have also examined AIPAC's role in helping to defeat Congressional candidates AIPAC deems unfriendly to Israel, such as former Rep. Cynthia McKinney, of Georgia (after her first term as a representative). They claim that donors from outside the region, led by AIPAC, meddled in a local congressional race and used accusations of anti-Semitism against McKinney to help defeat her

Powerful indeed. And yes it is only a quote- a google search will enable the reader to read the entire article.

Well, the little piece you provided in the link is WRONG in two and a half out of three assertions in the very first paragraph, to wit:


1. Item #1 is, of course FALSE. That was the basis of Clinton and Taba, to which Arafat simply replied, "No," and walked away. Consolidation of some settlements and removal of others is central to the process; Sharon knows it, Israel knows it, the Pals know it, and Arafat knew it. He was simply not interested in a peace deal.

2. Item #2 is also FALSE. Barak actually proposed that the Pals have the "surface rights" to the Temple Mount! I think this was a rather brilliant idea, since the Orthodox Jews have no interest in even walking on it (for fear of standing on the actual temple site, since nobody knows its exact location on the mount). The Muslims, of course, would maintain control of their Holy Sites. As to the 1967 East Jerusalem boundary, it will be changed since it is untenable against attackers. No peace treaty should include untenable boundaries; they are an invitation to war. The Clinton/Taba talks offered other land as compensation so as to keep the total land under discussion equal.

3. Item #3 is half right; Israel cannot offer the return of all "refugees" and still remain a Jewish State. However, some "refugees" would have been permitted under Clinton/Taba, and compensation would have been offered to the rest. Remember Clinton's pardon of Marc Rich? I think that was who offered the cash to pay the Pals. Of course, when Arafat killed the deal, that money was lost forever. Maybe Suha will write a check from the money in her account which Arafat stole from the Pals.

You refer to Barak and Clinton, where is it written that Sharon accepts any of this? If he does that is good news indeed, but I fear you are living in the past with players long removed from the scene.

Well, considering that Sharon could not have been elected dog catcher in Israel prior to Arafat's "No," he is simply the interim solution to "leadership" until a true peacemaker comes along on the side pf the Pals. Maybe it will be Abbas, maybe not. We will see.


True, Sharon is no peacemaker, I agree. But Arafat "elected" him! And now that Arafat is gone, he can be un-elected in a blink of the eye. Remember, Israel is a parliamentary democracy. If a Pal peace deal is offered and Sharon refuses it, his government will fall and Sharon will go to his ranch.

I wish Bush had gone to his.