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Lcyberlina
QUOTE
Automakers put hydrogen on fast track
Industry gives a look at a future with little or no gas power

By Greg Schneider
The Washington Post
Updated: 6:45 a.m. ET Jan. 9, 2005
LINK


WASHINGTON - The brakes are controlled by a computer, so the car can stop a full length shorter than most. Each rear wheel has its own motor and can turn by itself, which not only improves traction but also makes parallel parking a snap. And the only thing this car emits is water vapor.

But for all the exotic gizmos on the Sequel, an experimental hydrogen-powered car to be shown today by General Motors Corp., the biggest breakthrough is that it is designed to drive as far and accelerate as quickly as the cars in most driveways.

The Sequel uses fuel-cell technology that until now has not matched the overall performance of gasoline engines. GM is introducing the car at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit as rival companies make similar announcements.

Passengers at Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport will soon ride on buses with hydrogen-powered engines, Ford Motor Co. chief executive William Clay Ford Jr. is to announce today. Ford also is to announce plans to create three gasoline-electric hybrid vehicles for retail sale, and to rush the hybrid Mercury Mariner sport-utility vehicle to showrooms later this year -- a year ahead of schedule to capitalize on consumer interest in hybrids.

Honda is showing off a new-generation hydrogen-fuel-cell car called the FCX for the first time this week. While the car is not intended for retail sale, it will show up in municipal fleets in New York, California and elsewhere in the coming year.

'It's a frenzy'
After a century of dependence on oil-based fuel, the auto industry is finally giving consumers a serious look at a future with little or no gasoline power. The products showing up this week in Detroit have far more corporate support than recent electricity-powered vehicles, and are advanced beyond the demonstration vehicles shown by car companies over the last few years. The fleet of fuel-cell minivans that GM maintains in Washington, for example, has limited range and must be operated by company employees.

By contrast, Honda lets almost anyone drive its FCX. In a recent feature on the automotive research online site Edmunds.com, a reviewer described picking up the FCX from a valet-parking attendant.

Hydrogen is still years away from reducing the nation's dependence on foreign oil. No one has yet figured out how to generate large amounts of hydrogen without causing as much pollution as internal-combustion engines now create, or how to pay for a nationwide distribution network. And the vehicles are prohibitively expensive; if GM's Sequel were for sale, it would cost as much as a warehouse full of Corvettes.

Still, auto industry executives say their business is on the verge of a fundamental change.

"It's a frenzy" to get out front with new technology, said Mary Ann Wright, director of such efforts at Ford. "What you're seeing is a groundswell, not really of industry pushing as much as everybody demanding that we really get serious about these solutions. . . . The market's telling us something -- they're ready for this kind of stuff. The public is aware that we can't continue to consume oil like we do."

Hybrids grow in popularity
People have sent that message in the way car companies understand best: by buying products such as the Toyota Prius, the Honda Civic Hybrid and the Ford Escape Hybrid. Rising fuel prices, instability in the Middle East and concerns about global warming have helped sustain the hybrid phenomenon, and U.S. car buyers have even turned away from the biggest SUVs in favor of smaller models.

Most automakers consider hybrids to be a step toward the ultimate solution -- hydrogen fuel cells. Fuel cells work by combining hydrogen with oxygen to create heat and electricity, with water the only byproduct. Though many people associate hydrogen with disasters -- the hydrogen bomb, or the Hindenburg zeppelin explosion in 1937 -- scientists say the gas is in many ways safer than gasoline. Hydrogen is the lightest element, so leaks dissipate quickly and are difficult to concentrate enough to ignite. Hydrogen is stable, so it will not explode just from an impact.

But those same properties make it challenging to store hydrogen in a large-enough quantity to power a vehicle. The Bush administration has pledged $1.2 billion over five years to sustain a government-industry research partnership on hydrogen power, with many auto and energy companies cooperating to develop the technology.

One thing, though, seems to have changed the tenor of the otherwise polite hydrogen effort: Toyota's success with the Prius.

That car's unexpected popularity helped influence public policy, with the federal government offering tax breaks to hybrid buyers and state governments offering express-lane exemptions. The Prius gave Toyota a "halo" of technological virtue, said Lindsay Brooke of the auto consulting firm CSM Worldwide Inc. Now other companies want a piece of the action.

GM, which has been slow to roll out hybrid products, is using the Sequel to try to win some of the attention for hydrogen, Brooke said.

"We're reaching out to show that this is truly doable," GM technology chief Lawrence D. Burns said. "We're talking about a real car. It's not affordable yet, but I can assure you it's doable."

In 2002, GM showed a fuel-cell concept car called the Hy-Wire that consisted of an 11-inch thick "skateboard" chassis that contained all the working parts -- one-tenth as many as in a conventional car -- with a body simply bolted on top. But the Hy-Wire was rickety to drive and could never have met federal highway standards, let alone satisfied demanding buyers.

The Sequel's biggest single advance, Burns said, is a compressed-hydrogen storage tank that can hold enough fuel to give the car a range of 300 miles. That is twice as far as the range of older versions of fuel-cell cars, and is considered the threshold distance to be marketable. With liquid hydrogen, the range could extend to 450 miles, Burns said.

The Sequel also has a more powerful stack of fuel cells than previously possible, cutting 0-to-60 mph acceleration time to fewer than 10 seconds, comparable to most conventional cars.

GM is also working on the technology to produce and assemble the Sequel, hoping to be able to build 1 million a year by 2010, Burns said.

Not many in the industry agree with such a close date. "The goal is to make it a practical technology, and it's going to be after 2010," said Ben Knight, vice president for research and development at Honda USA. His company's fuel-cell car has a range of about 190 miles, and is the only such vehicle certified by U.S. regulators for public use.

But while they disagree on specifics, virtually all automakers are pushing to get more attention for hydrogen so that society, the government and other industries will get ready for the eventual change, Brooke said. "They're starting to force the public to look at it and now the fuel industry needs to step up and develop the infrastructure and develop the means to produce the hydrogen," he said.
Don
I posted what became a somewhat lengthy thread on the energy folder of the JFK forum: "Green or Black, Hydrogen is a Loser". So-called 'green' hydrogen would be that gained by using enviro-friendly energy sources such as solar, wind, and tidal to 'crack' (extract, or produce) hydrogen by electrolysis of water. 'Black' hydrogen, on the other hand, relies on less environmentally friendly energy sources like natural gas, or even nuclear, as has been proposed. The point being, regardless of where you get the energy used to produce hydrogen, the EROI (energy return on investment) is negative. Short story, you wind up losing more energy than you gain. You're better off using that energy directly than losing a huge chunk of it in the conversion process.

The "Hydrogen Economy" being pushed by Bush, Ahnold, and yes, unfortunately, even John Kerry to a lesser degree in his energy plan, is little more than an excuse to extend the business model of Bush's oil cohorts.

Why Hydrogen is No Solution - Scientific Answers to Marketing Hype, Deception and Wishful Thinking

The Hydrogen Economy - An Idea Whose Time Hasn't Come ... Again

Is Hydrogen Sustainable?
jeffmoskin
QUOTE(Don @ Jan 10 2005, 06:26 PM)
I posted what became a somewhat lengthy thread on the energy folder of the JFK forum: "Green or Black, Hydrogen is a Loser".  So-called 'green' hydrogen would be that gained by using enviro-friendly energy sources such as solar, wind, and tidal to 'crack' (extract, or produce) hydrogen by electrolysis of water.  'Black' hydrogen, on the other hand, relies on less environmentally friendly energy sources like natural gas, or even nuclear, as has been proposed. The point being, regardless of where you get the energy used to produce hydrogen, the EROI (energy return on investment) is negative. Short story, you wind up losing more energy than you gain. You're better off using that energy directly than losing a huge chunk of it in the conversion process.

The "Hydrogen Economy" being pushed by Bush, Ahnold, and yes, unfortunately, even John Kerry to a lesser degree in his energy plan, is little more than an excuse to extend the business model of Bush's oil cohorts.

Why Hydrogen is No Solution - Scientific Answers to Marketing Hype, Deception and Wishful Thinking

The Hydrogen Economy - An Idea Whose Time Hasn't Come ... Again

Is Hydrogen Sustainable?
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Right On!

How can you have a "Hydrogen Economy" when there is no natural hydrogen?

Just a lot of Bushsh*t.
Freedom4all
QUOTE(Lcyberlina @ Jan 10 2005, 10:14 AM)
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Thanks for the post Lcyberlina.

I agree with some of the skeptics, who say that we should not "put all of our eggs in the hydrogen basket". We should aggressively develop known alternatives like Biodiesel, Ethanol, Synthetic fuels, and plug-in hybrid electric cars.

But we should not discount the very real possibility of a technological break-through in hydrogen storage technology.

We can create 100% of all the hydrogen we need from Solar Energy . The problem is storage and transporting the hydrogen.

And of course, the fuel cell itself is not yet ready for prime-time. But we are seeing substantial progress.

www.AmericanEnergyIndependence.com
Don
Freedom4all, the man behind your above biodiesel link is Mike Briggs of the University of New Hampshire. He has been investigating the concept of large-scale biodiesel production via micro-algae grown in desert ponds, such as in the Sonoran desert. He was also an active participant in the energy folder of the John Kerry forum, and was in agreement with my thoughts about hydrogen.

There certainly exists the chance that hydrogen production and storage, along with fuel cell technology, will experience breakthroughs in coming decades. But can we seriously continue to put hydrogen and fuel cells at front-and-center in the face of a global energy disaster, when more sensible solutions exist now?
Snuffysmith
This just goes to show what a little competition will do in the auto industry. Its about time Detroit wakes up to what the Japanese auto manufacturers are doing. No amount of cajoling from the Department of Energy and EPA will get Detroit off the dine as good old fashioned competition. Lets hear it for hybrids in the inner city.
Lcyberlina
I agree Snuffy. I think it is "Ol' Pure Competition" that drives the market anyway. Besides, more and more people are becoming aware of how expensive gas is and that it will become even more expensive in the future. While many of us (including me, I admit) enjoy riding a "gas guzzler", it will come a time when one would be able to afford the car but not the fuel to drive it... So it makes sense that people are starting to seriously look at hybrids and alternative energy cars...

It isn't a coincidence that there is a months long waiting list to buy a Toyota Prius.
Freedom4all
QUOTE(Don @ Jan 10 2005, 09:10 PM)
Freedom4all, the man behind your above biodiesel link is Mike Briggs of the University of New Hampshire. He has been investigating the concept of large-scale biodiesel production via  micro-algae grown in desert ponds, such as in the Sonoran desert. He was also an active participant in the energy folder of the John Kerry forum, and was in  agreement with my thoughts about hydrogen.
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Yes, Mike Briggs contributed to the Biodiesel page found on the www.AmericanEnergyIndependence.com web site. He approved the concept of "wrapping" the page around his paper and re-crunching the numbers in a way that might be easier for non-technical readers to understand. He wrote the closing comments at the end of the page.

In addition, the American Energy Independence Biodiesel page offers a solution for the water shortage problem that desert micro-algae farms would have: Water For All

Mike Briggs wrote the rebuttal to Armory Lovins Twenty Hydrogen Myths, which you will find on the Hydrogen web page: www.AmericanEnergyIndependence.com/hydrogen.html

Mike also wrote the rebuttal to John Wilson’s theory that global warming is caused by a natural increase in solar irradiance accompanied by a related increase in atmospheric water vapor levels. See the Global Warming web page:
www.AmericanEnergyIndependence.com/globalwarming.html

Full credit and acknowledgement are given to Mike Briggs on the pages with links to his work at the University of New Hampshire.

QUOTE
There certainly exists the chance that hydrogen production and storage, along with fuel cell technology, will experience breakthroughs in coming decades. But can we seriously continue to put hydrogen and fuel cells at front-and-center in the face of a global energy disaster, when more sensible solutions exist now?

I agree with your concern and sense of urgency. If it is an either/or, then of course we should not be spending tax dollars on hydrogen at this time. But, I think we must invest in future technology, as well as continue rolling-out the technology that is available today, such as hybrid cars.

I don't think we need to smash the dream of hydrogen, just help people see that it is a future technology. But keep in mind, when the problems of storage, and fuel cell costs/reliability are solved (or just storage - because hydrogen will burn great in an internal combustion engine) we CAN produce hydrogen from renewable resources. Look at the numbers on the Solar Energy web page:
www.AmericanEnergyIndependence.com/solarenergy.html
Freedom4all
Tai Robinson, President of INTERGALACTIC HYDROGEN, will convert your piston engine car to run on hydrogen now.

The future could be closer than we know.

See:
www.h2go.info
www.hydrogenhighway.ca.gov
energywiz
QUOTE(Freedom4all @ Jan 11 2005, 04:35 PM)
Tai Robinson, President of INTERGALACTIC HYDROGEN, will convert your piston engine car to run on hydrogen now. 

The future could be closer than we know.

See:
www.h2go.info
www.hydrogenhighway.ca.gov
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I would strongly suggest against it, for the next 20 years or so. Lack of refueling stations, price per mile traveled is very high, number of miles per tank full is very low, the hydrogen that's available currently is bound to be "black hydrogen" as discussed in earlier posts, dryness - meaning lack of lubrication for cylinder walls rings and pistons, the conversion isn't cheap, and the vehicle resale value would be low. Hydrogen will be a great system one of these days, we're just not even close yet.

Much better "clean energy" conversion options out there, and they are actually cleaner. Also suggest people consider trashing their existing automatic transmission in favor of a Continously Variable Transmission. They are 30% more efficient than any overdrive automatic. Now a factory option for several new cars. Not nearly as expensive as a hybrid, though not quite as fuel efficient either.
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