They said it would cost too much to use tidal power in the 30's, and they still say it would cost too much. I checked out web sites on it and it doesn't look all that much. What am I missing? I brought this up several times on the Kerry forum but got nothing but bad things about it. No encouragement what so ever. I know it wouldn’t do the middle of the country all that much good, but it sure would help people close to the oceans I would think and that in turn would help us in the middle of the country, we would have corn to burn if you know what I mean.

They said it would cost too much to use tidal power in the 30's, and they still say it would cost too much. I checked out web sites on it and it doesn't look all that much. What am I missing? I brought this up several times on the Kerry forum but got nothing but bad things about it. No encouragement what so ever. I know it wouldn’t do the middle of the country all that much good, but it sure would help people close to the oceans I would think and that in turn would help us in the middle of the country, we would have corn to burn if you know what I mean.

The ocean saltwater, etc. is very hard on the equipment. Do you have any links for successful tidal power projects?

Here is a web page that presents an overview of ocean energy concepts:
Renewable Energy from the Ocean

Ocean Salinity Energy looks like it could produce a lot of renewable energy.

The United States DOE has ended its ocean energy research.

There are much smaller generators now that look like corkscrews.... you can toss them into rivers, tidal zones, or waves breaks....... you don't have to dam things up and they are small (and removable)

This web page has some examples of those - An engineer in India says that his design, for rivers and streams, can be mass produced for about $100.
http://www.americanenergyindependence.com/rainenergy.html

How do submarines stay under water for many months? Just one question that comes to mind?

Google Tidal Power and see what all they got.

Its really time to think out of their(oil, nuclear) box.

Here is a successful project in Canada.

http://www.nidi.org/nickel/special/13.htm

Heres another one inventet and produced in Denmark (I'm so proud) :D

http://www.wavedragon.net/news/270603.htm

http://tidesonline.nos.noaa.gov/monitor.html

Texas tide > less than 1' variation.
Los Angles > 4' variation.
Georgia > 4' variation.
Oregon > 6' variation.
Valdez, Alaska > 11' variation.

Where the power is needed, and where making tidal dams is affordable, there isn't a good tide.

and some more incl the most comprehensive site of them all

http://www.worldenergy.org/

http://www.emu_consult.dk/wavedragon_e.shtml

Which is why wave energy is so much more easy to handle. see the above links

In a way i think it is almost tragic the way Britain and the US flushed it's technological advantage in wind and tidal wave energy down the toilet during the 80'. But as a dane i find it almost amousing that even GE has to buy their Windturbines from my country now, especially since GE is by far the biggest producer of generators in the world.
It's good for our trade balance and jobs, and to bad for Britain and US whos right wing goverments (Thatcher & Reagan) didn't saw any future in it at all. and now we are gonna pulverized you in wave energy too. (Just kidding)

While looking at the ocean floor map for posible tidal/current generation areas I saw this:

Big picture....
http://img104.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img104&image=impact.jpg

tell me that isn't an impact! I think it may be the remnants of the biggest????

whats the arrow pointing to?

I just can't understand why this power wave and tidal isn't looked into more. No waste, always there, I think they are just giving excuses excuses ecuses. what do you think? Wish I was smart and rich.
Maybe they can't think of a way to tax it, like solar.

Another tidal wave power scheme:

http://www.wavemill.com/technology.htm

Wavemill® Technology

The Wavemill® is a new, highly efficient technology that harnesses the immense, renewable energy contained in ocean waves. Its unique ability to extract and convert energy from both the rising and falling waves, as well as from surge forces - all without trade-offs - represents a technological breakthrough.

The Wavemill® is the first practical, high-efficiency wave energy converter capable of being factory produced as a cost-effective, off-the-shelf unit, rather than having to be built on site.
View Image


Significantly Higher Output Than Wind and Solar Technologies

Ocean wave energy is highly concentrated compared to other renewable sources, often offering 15-20 times more available energy per square meter than wind or solar. Because wave energy is highly concentrated wind energy, and because water density is much higher than that of air, the available energy from ocean waves is known to be many times greater than that of wind. For example, along the California coast, yearly averages show wave power as having a 17 times advantage in available energy per square metre. This advantage, at similar ratios, also holds true in the case of photovoltaic energy converters, more commonly known as solar panels.

No Direct or Upstream GHG's

Wave energy is both free and abundant. By taking advantage of this sustainable energy source, Wavemill® powered systems produce no greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions, either directly or indirectly, thereby contributing to the reduction of global warming. This feature will also make larger Wavemill® installations very attractive to those brokering or trading in the emerging market for "carbon credits." Although this could mean lower acquisition costs for the buyer, thus leading to increased demand; it is not factored into WEC's current financial projections. Coupled with the opportunity to lower production and output costs, this key environmental benefit will make Wavemill® based systems highly attractive to a growing number of utilities, water resellers, developers, governments, NGO's, and entrepreneurs worldwide.

Free Energy Reduces Costs for a Variety of Processes

Because wave energy is free, the Wavemill® can reduce the production and output costs of various energy intensive processes. For example, Wavemill® systems can be used for seawater desalination, power generation, water purification or hybrid water/power applications. The production of clean hydrogen fuel by the electrolysis of seawater is also on the horizon.

The Wavemill® is designed to power a variety of energy intensive processes, and because wave energy is free, their associated production and output costs can be greatly reduced. These include the desalination of seawater to provide safe, potable freshwater; the production of electricity and hydraulic power; the purification of unsafe water; and in the future, the production of clean hydrogen fuel and oxygen from seawater by electrolysis. Hybrid systems combining these processes are also practical. These capabilities can be built into Wavemill® devices to provide integrated, turnkey systems or can be connected remotely.

In the case of seawater desalination, the cost of energy - which represents the largest single cost in this process - can now be eliminated or greatly reduced, thereby making safe, freshwater less expensive to produce at a time when global shortages continue to increase. In the growing, global market for innovative, practical and cost-effective solutions, the modular and scalable Wavemill® will address a broad range of market needs and applications.

More Flexible than Tidal Energy

The Wavemill® is NOT a tidal energy device. Unlike those site-specific installations, which require highly unique conditions, the Wavemill® is designed for broad based site suitability and simple installation. Respected studies and reports have stated that because of its global distribution and highly concentrated nature, wave energy represents a logical choice as the most suitable alternative to traditional energy sources - once practical conversion technology becomes available. The Wavemill® provides that practical solution.

Simplicity, Extreme Durability, and Cost Effectiveness

James Watt, whose inventions revolutionized the modern world, stated "Of all things, but proverbially so in mechanics, the supreme excellence is simplicity." The Wavemill's elegantly simple design, full scalability, and innovative approach to production, installation, servicing and security all embody this philosophy.

For example, the Enclosed Surge Wall (ESW) caisson incorporates numerous parts and features into a single, highly durable moulded component. A strategy of incorporating maximum simplicity, durability, flexibility and serviceability is applied in the design of all of the Wavemill's major components, sub-systems and options.

:D

Tidal wave energy sounds good to me too bad I live in Kansas where I can't get on the ground floor ha., but thats ok as long as it gets on the agenda for common ground and common sense. It would sure benefit us here, we are working on wind power but just can't seem to get past how bad it looks on the landscape of our vasst space.
Lets put this on the list of common grounds and common sense and see if this forum has any or not ok

I'll go elsewhere to scream about this..... but GEOTHERMAL. It's just beneath your feet. 50 degrees year round. In Texas it cools....... in the summer and heats in the winter. In Maine...... heat heat heat. How much would it save you to start from 50 degrees rather than zero?? It's everywhere. Jobs stay in America drilling the holes. Now..... who makes the heat pumps?? Has W ever mentioned this in a speech? He supposedly has it on his ranch. Odd.... good enough for his investment, but not the nation. I would have sucker punched him hard with that fact in a debate!

I have 3 kilowatts of nice photovoltaics on my roof..... but even those are facing obstacles in some neighborhoods. In the Central Valley of CA... we have more and more housing..... this summer all the houses popped air conditioners on top.... a few now have water heaters. No photovoltaics! Sigh.

http://img31.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img31&image=impact2.jpg

Look at the image as a whole and it looks like a giant impact crater. I've found several of them, it may be just a meeting place for all those fault lines. Did they make it, or did it make them?
On 1994 July 16-22, over twenty fragments of comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 collided with the planet Jupiter.

ftp://ftp.seds.org/pub/astro/SL9/images/r.../ALL/HST_R2.gif

The shape of the Pacific ocean, the fracture lines, the other crater looking shapes, all look like this may be the main impact of the "orgin of water" comet that may of collided with our planet 4 billion years ago.

?????????????????

I think the key is to not put all of your eggs into one basket but to look at the wide range of possibilities based on where you live.

Wind, Solar and Tidal Energy all have their place. If more and more of these systems are used together, the overall energy savings/production would be huge.

I use solar powered outdoor lighting and try to purchase the most efficient appliances as possible.

There is a better chance to find power in the oceans through chemical oceanography.
there have been some interesting studies done with sediments and potential differences
(voltage, i.e. energy) generated through cell decay.

It's "out there" but my impression in the reading I've done is basic research is grossly underfunded and ignored.

And combined whit Geothermal as TeachAmerica suggestet + bio-gasses and you have a good beginning, it will not give selfsufficientsy but you will be going some were and never be left out in the cold (Literaly)

but each technic has its own Ad. and Dis. Geothermal & Wave is constant and predictable, and can be used in larger grids for the same reason. but both demands large capital outlays compared to the others.
Solar is predictable and leans heavily up against new technology for storage capacity to live up to its promises.
Windturbines can be a eyesore, but put them out to sea and they do marvelous, but they do demand a wind blowing. Capital outlays for turbines goes from 50000$ and up to 5mil+. something for everybody.
Biogas can be used every where were people and anmals shit and makes waste, + it is by far the easiest lowtech renewable energy source to use, and makes good fertilizer too. only problem is that it is severly hambert by the NIMB syndrome.

No renewable energy source will ever be picked up and developed until big money gets involved. And if the big money jerks on Bush's team have any say, they'll have to own the patents and all the research before they'll even consider anything further.

That won't happen until the whole world is out of oil and gas. Then they can charge whatever they want and won't have any competition.

The problem for the big money jerks is that patents is been taking left and right but mostly OUTSIDE the US. so the jerks either have to wait for Fusion energy, or buy themself into already established firms outside US boarders.

Kilowatt for kilowatt, nuclear and possibly even coal have less environmental impact than tearing up our coastline with dams and generators.

And there is relative few places were you can use it, there for Wavepower instead, it can be used everywere. And whitout the enviomental impact of tidal power

The discussion actually on topic, on tidal power has been brief and light, unless you count the links.

In the early sixties, President Johnson drawing on his background in REA/ TVA and the power administration in rural Texas offered to support a large tidal power station off Passamquoddy Bay in Maine for the benefit of New Englanders.
The New England states were battered by the steady loss of migrating business like textile, shoes, other manufacturing to the South and ultimately overseas. High labor costs and especially highest electric power rates in the nation fueled the losses.

It was a generous act and Presidential in the sense of helping a region, not exploiting it. The pity and failure was the Democratic congressmen, as well as the Repubs were already in the pockets of the big power monopolies and they wanted to protect the existing fossil fuel generators. "We don't need it".

Ironically it was only a few years later the biggest banks in the country got behind a wave of nuclear generators because of the generous subsidies, insurance caps and other deals to make them fly. The most important reason and most underappreciated reason was that nuclear ventures were so expensive in size, scale and dollar costs that they were attractive in scope to a large bank consortium , much more so than smaller conventional plants. The existence of guaranteed rates of return thru PSC's and long term bonding and backups by government contracts to buy years of power combined to make the nuclear option the MOST PROFITABLE of all. So the tidal venture became an unwanted orphan.

A (Tidal) project exists in the English Channel off the coast of France, where there is a 9-11 foot tide. It could be built as a huge project off the coast of Maine or Nova Scotia and supply clean power to the East coast. Then we could force the polluters of the Midwest out of business by competitve pricing as they scramble to pay for and pass on the expensive fossil fuels. But the oil companies got Bush installed again, so they are safe for 4 more years. The building of one would be a many year project. Thousands would be employed in construction and manufacture of the pumps,generator sets and rigs to create the holding pens ,tanks and all sorts of devices to make a big project work. Too bad. it will be postponed a few more years.

This is a perfect "redstate/blue state" wedge issue. Let the blue states, concerned with doing something about AIR pollution, fossil fuel independence and shrinking back the usage get behind a project like this. All the states that want progress can finance this type of project, and buy the power at a preferred rate. That will squeeze out the obsolete, polluters like Midwest energy plants that just got an "exemption" to expand but not use clean technology. A self sustaining megaplant would enable the North East to give the boot to that plan, save money, and save the environment from acid rain, etc.

How about it Blue states? Show the country who is leading and who is stubbornly stuck in the old , downhill headed ways!

In the UK you can choose to spend more on your electric bill to have it provided by a clean source (mostly north sea wind farms). If we all ask for it and change to the company that does it, then the other companies will have to follow suite to stay competitive.