http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/ghost_planes.html
‘Ghost Planes’ Make Suspects Disappear
Pentagon has new secret weapon in ‘war on terror’
By Christopher Bollyn
There has been a flurry of articles recently in the U.S. press about an executive jet used by “American intelligence agencies” to transport abducted “terrorist suspects” for interrogation to third countries that use torture. The mainstream media, however, largely omits essential details about “extraordinary rendition,” a practice begun during the Clinton administration, and ignores the legal questions it raises.
The Sunday Times (UK) wrote about the mystery jet, a Gulfstream 5, on Nov. 14, saying it had obtained the logs of some 300 flights showing “the movements of the Gulfstream 5 leased by agents from the U.S. defense department and the CIA.”
According to the Times, the logs indicate that the U.S. has used the plane to transport abducted “prisoners” to “countries with poor human rights records” where they have been turned over to the authorities for “torture by proxy.”
During the past two years, the plane, which “always” departs from Washington, “has flown to 49 destinations outside America, including the Guantanamo Bay prison camp in Cuba and other U.S. military bases.” Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Morocco, Afghanistan and Uzbekistan are among the foreign destinations of the “torture jet,” which has the registration number N379P.
The Gulfstream made at least seven trips to Uzbekistan, a dictatorship allied with the United States in the “war on terror,” where, the Times wrote, the “secret police are notorious for their interrogation methods, including the alleged boiling of prisoners.”
“I have come across many cases of rape in front of family members who they wish to extract information from,” Craig Murray, the former British ambassador to Uzbekistan, said recently on Swedish television. “I have post mortem photos of a corpse,” Murray said. “These show that the person was boiled to death.”
The Washington Post, Boston Globe and Chicago Tribune all recently reported on the torture jet, but have focused on the phony companies with whom the plane is registered rather than on the serious crimes it is being used to commit.
Much of the information about the “torture flights” has come from a Swedish journalist, Fredrik Laurin, who has produced four television programs about the kidnapping of two Egyptians from Sweden in December 2001.
The four-part Kalla Fakta (Cold Facts) program about the “enforced disappearance” of the two Egyptians, Ahmed Agiza, 39, and Muhammad Al Zery, 33, began on Swedish television on May 17, 2004, and can be viewed on-line. The most important details of the abductions, however, are not found in the U.S. press.
In the afternoon of Dec. 18, 2001, Ahmed Agiza was picked up by police on his way home from Swedish lessons in the western Sweden town of Karlstad. His wife and five children awaited him at home. Meanwhile in Stockholm, Swedish security police, the SÄPO, arrested Al Zery at his job. The two Egyptians were then driven to Bromma airport in Stockholm.
Paul Forell, a policeman with 25 years experience, was stationed at the police station at Bromma airport that night. Forell told Laurin what he observed:
“First came the security police. . . after five or 10 minutes two Americans arrived, in civilian suits, and we stood there for a while talking,” he said. The Americans, he said, were about 35 years old, gave their first names and said they were from the U.S. Embassy.
“Well, then came this group with the arrested men into the station, and everything went very fast,” Forell said. “The arrested men, wearing their own clothes, were shackled hand and foot.”
Asked who brought the men into the station, Forell said: “The Americans. The Swedish policemen stayed behind in the outer, public premises,” he said. “There were three to four men to each of the arrested.” The Americans were “dressed in jeans and shirts, and wearing black masks.”
Forell, a bystander, was the only uniformed policeman. “There was hardly room for me in my own station,” he said.
Laurin described what happened next: The arrested men were placed in the station’s changing-room and, while shackled hand and foot, their clothes were cut off in pieces. When the men were naked, “suppositories of an unknown kind were inserted into their rectums.”
Dressed in diapers and dark overalls, blindfolded and hooded, the men were taken to the cars, Laurin reported.
The Gulfstream 5 with the registration N379P, “flying for the U.S. Department of Defense,” waited several hundred yards away, Laurin said.
“One of the prisoners was placed lying on the floor with his hands and feet cuffed together behind his back. The other was strapped fast in the cabin, with his hands over his head.”
The two arrested Egyptians, about eight Americans and two SÄPO police took off at 9:49 p.m., Kalla Fakta reported. “When the plane landed in Cairo at 3 a.m., the men were turned over to Egyptian intelligence officers.”
“Disguised agents from an elite American military unit, answering directly to the White House, are allowed to take command on Swedish soil, contrary to Swedish law. In a secret and brutal operation, two Egyptians who have asylum in Sweden are kidnapped and brought to Egypt to be tortured,” Kalla Fakta reported. “They are suspected of terrorism, but no evidence is presented.”
After two and a half years of torture in an Egyptian prison, Al Zery was declared innocent and released. Agiza, in a military trial, was sentenced to 25 years in prison.
The Gulfstream 5 has completed at least 72 such operations in more than 30 countries, Laurin reported. And it always follows the same pattern. “After takeoff from its home base in Smithfield, N.C., it makes a short stop at Dulles International Airport, close to CIA headquarters and the Pentagon.
“It flies exclusively to countries that are allied with the U.S. in the fight against terror: Morocco, Libya, Egypt, Jordan, Uzbekistan and Pakistan,” Kalla Fakta reported, “countries where prisoners are kept and interrogated, far beyond the reach of American and international courts.”
U.S. enforced disappearances from Sweden are nothing new, according to journalist Sven Anér. More than 10 years ago, on Sept. 28, 1994, nine Estonian survivors from the Estonia ferry disaster “disappeared” in a similar manner. The day after the sinking, nine crew members were removed from the lists of 146 reported survivors as a Gulfstream 4 (Reg. N971L), and a Boeing 727-200 (Reg. VR-CLM) left Stockholm’s Arlanda airport carrying four and five unregistered passengers each.
Anér has the documents from the airport’s archive that show that the fees for the two airplanes were paid by the U.S. Embassy in Stockholm.
“Enforced disappearance” and torture are “crimes against humanity,” according to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, which the Bush administration opposes.
While inquiries at the Departments of State, Defense and Justice about the legality of “extraordinary renditions” went unanswered, a March 19, 2004, memo from Jack L. Goldsmith, assistant attorney general, clearly reveals the Bush administration’s intent to defy international law.
Full Version: DoD's‘Ghost Planes’ ship people for torture, post
Common Ground Common Sense > Issues that Affect Our Lives > Civil Rights and Civil Liberties > Civil Rights and Civil Liberties Archive
http://www.politiken.biz/underrattelsetjanst.htm
DIS styrelse / Militära underrättelsetjänsten
Det framkom även att styrelsten för Estonia-anhörigföreningen
DIS antagligen också var bemannad av den militära under-rättelsetjänsten. Jag hade visserligen lagt märke till att kassören Allan Soomans uniform var märkt med "Underrättelstjänst" på skuldran (Sooman är major). Jag fattade dock aldrig några misstankar. Allan Soomans syster Annika är gift med Gunnar Bendréus. DIS styrelse har ofta anklagats för att vara en ren familjestyrelse. DIS styrelse kritiserades hårt i Peter Örns analysrapport om Estonia.
Allan Soomans och Annika Bendréus far omkom ombord på Estonia. Han var kapten inom den militära underrättelsetjänsten, sektionen för särskild inhämtning (SSI). Detta är möjligtvis förklaringen till att DIS styrelse enbart i början förhöll sig neutral i frågan om bärgning av vraket, eftersom det rådde skilda åsikter i frågan bland medlemmarna. Före regeringens beslut den 15 dec. 1994 att inte bärga kropparna och därmed bryta alla tidigare löften svängde DIS styrelse plötsligt och hävdade att regeringens rekommendation skulle följas. Detta rimmade illa med DIS övriga attityd till regeringsmakten och politiker i allmänhet som kritiserades hårt. Det stod plötsligt även klart varför DIS bröt det goda förhållandet till mig. Jag hade kommit för nära sanningen.
Plötsligt stod det också klart varför DIS hade anlitat en amerikansk advokat trots att det inte rörde amerikansk juridik, vars strategi var att låta en fransk åklagare utreda olyckan. Detta hade enbart lett till att advokaterna fått processkassan och att den franske åklagaren efter ett tag kommit fram till att utredningen skulle få läggas ner. På detta vis hade sanningen aldrig kommit i dagen.
När tyska Spiegel TV ville undersöka huruvida bilder på Avo Piht efter räddningen fanns i arkivet på tyska statliga TV, ZDF, uttryckte arkivarien sin förvåning över att dessa bilder plötsligt rönte ett så stort intresse så många månader efter olyckan.
Det visade sig att tyska säkerhetspolisen BND, hade besökt arkivet strax före Spiegel TV för att kontrollera filmaterialet i jakt på bilder av Avo Piht. I detta sammanhang kan nämnas att talrika estniska vittnen har anklagat tyska ZDF för att senare ha klippt bort de skvenser där Avo Piht syns. Dessutom vet jag genom en tysk journalist på TV- och radiostationen NDR att det finns en akt om Estonia hos BND.
När Jutta Rabe i Spiegel TV försökte få ut en kopia av intervjun med den svenska sjöräddningsmannen i estniska Radio Kuku, meddelade chefen för att estniska säkerhetstjänsten beslagtagit denna intervju. Därav kan härledas att även estniska säkerhetspolisen är inblandad i Estoniaärendet.
I februari 1996 lanserades den sk FELIX-rapporten via Cypern, där Estonias rederi var formellt registrerat. FELIX-rapporten är en rapport om organiserad brottslighet i de före detta sovjetiska kolonierna i Baltikum.
Upphovsmännen är den sk FELIX-gruppen uppkallad efter Felix Dzerzjinskij, den grumme grundaren av den sovjetiska säkerhetstjänsten, som sedermera blev KGB.
FELIX-gruppens medlemmar härstammar från KGB och liknande underrättelsetjänster i det forna Sovjetunionen. De bedriver numera militär underrättelseverksamhet i det moderna Ryssland.
I denna rapport lämnas också en förklaring till Estoniaolyckan. Den estniska maffian som konkurrerar hårt med den ryska maffian, skall ha smugglat radioaktiva ämnen ombord på Estonia den aktuella natten och blivit förrådd i den svenska tullen. Detta upptäcktes i rätt tid varpå maffian skall ha beordrat kaptenen att öppna bogvisiret och dumpa lasten trots att full storm rådde.
Personligen tror jag inte att katastrofen gick till så. Det är inte där värdet i FELIX-rapporten ligger. Det intressanta med denna rapport är istället att även den ryska militära underrättelsetjänsten har befattat sig med Estonia-katastrofen.
En källa i Stockholm har uppgett för tyska Spiegel TVs Jutta Rabe att en representant från den ryska underrättelsetjänsten fick närvara på dykplattformen när Sjöfartsverket i dec. 1994 genomförde de enda officiella dykningarna på Estonia. Denne man hade till och med befogenhet att dirigera två dykare. De skulle gå in i vraket och leta efter en civilklädd person som hade en diplomatväska fastkedjad vid sin hand. Han var intresserad av innehållet i denna väska.
När Jutta Rabe i mars 1997 berättade detta för mig, tyckte jag att det lät mycket osannolikt. Men Andi Meister intervjuades några månader senare i DN. Han uppgav då att dykarbetet i dec. 1994 var mycket slarvigt och bristfälligt utfört. Istället för att koncentrera sig på väsentligheter såsom bildäck och liknande, hade dykarna t ex fått i uppgift att gräva i en passagerares diplomatväska.
Källor till Jutta Rabe, bl a spionen dr Marek och FELIX-rapporten, uppger att minst en av de amerikanska säkerhetstjänsterna är inblandad i Estoniafrågan. Denna ligger antagligen bakom en rad inbrott som skett i en privatvilla som bebos av Jutta Rabes viktiga källor. Inkräktarna var utrustade med moderna head-sets (hörlurar med mikrofon) och talade amerikanska. De försvann omedelbart när de blev upptäckta.
Vid ett anonymt telefonsamtal till Gunnar Bendréus uppgav en svenskspråkig man som talade med amerikansk brytning att han på uppdrag av amerikansk säkerhetstjänst under våren 1997 varit nere vid Estonia för att förstöra bevis.
Att minst en av USAs säkerhetstjänster skulle vara inblandad i Estoniafrågan kan inte klart bevisas som i övriga fall. Personligen är jag dock mycket benägen att anta att så är fallet. Enligt min gissning är det också den amerikanska säkerhetstjänsten som samordnar all mörkläggning kring Estonia. Slutligen ska vi inte glömma att Styrelsen för Psykologiskt Försvar är en gren av de militära underrättelsetjänsten, dvs de anhöriga var tvungna att rapportera direkt till underrättelsetjänsten.
Det kan alltså definitivt konstateras att svensk, rysk, estnisk och tysk säkerhetstjänst samt antagligen även amerikansk säkerhetstjänst är inblandade i Estoniafrågan. Detta förnekas från samtliga håll. Vad har de med en oskyldig civil passa-gerarfärja att göra, nu när det kalla kriget är slut?
DIS styrelse / Militära underrättelsetjänsten
Det framkom även att styrelsten för Estonia-anhörigföreningen
DIS antagligen också var bemannad av den militära under-rättelsetjänsten. Jag hade visserligen lagt märke till att kassören Allan Soomans uniform var märkt med "Underrättelstjänst" på skuldran (Sooman är major). Jag fattade dock aldrig några misstankar. Allan Soomans syster Annika är gift med Gunnar Bendréus. DIS styrelse har ofta anklagats för att vara en ren familjestyrelse. DIS styrelse kritiserades hårt i Peter Örns analysrapport om Estonia.
Allan Soomans och Annika Bendréus far omkom ombord på Estonia. Han var kapten inom den militära underrättelsetjänsten, sektionen för särskild inhämtning (SSI). Detta är möjligtvis förklaringen till att DIS styrelse enbart i början förhöll sig neutral i frågan om bärgning av vraket, eftersom det rådde skilda åsikter i frågan bland medlemmarna. Före regeringens beslut den 15 dec. 1994 att inte bärga kropparna och därmed bryta alla tidigare löften svängde DIS styrelse plötsligt och hävdade att regeringens rekommendation skulle följas. Detta rimmade illa med DIS övriga attityd till regeringsmakten och politiker i allmänhet som kritiserades hårt. Det stod plötsligt även klart varför DIS bröt det goda förhållandet till mig. Jag hade kommit för nära sanningen.
Plötsligt stod det också klart varför DIS hade anlitat en amerikansk advokat trots att det inte rörde amerikansk juridik, vars strategi var att låta en fransk åklagare utreda olyckan. Detta hade enbart lett till att advokaterna fått processkassan och att den franske åklagaren efter ett tag kommit fram till att utredningen skulle få läggas ner. På detta vis hade sanningen aldrig kommit i dagen.
När tyska Spiegel TV ville undersöka huruvida bilder på Avo Piht efter räddningen fanns i arkivet på tyska statliga TV, ZDF, uttryckte arkivarien sin förvåning över att dessa bilder plötsligt rönte ett så stort intresse så många månader efter olyckan.
Det visade sig att tyska säkerhetspolisen BND, hade besökt arkivet strax före Spiegel TV för att kontrollera filmaterialet i jakt på bilder av Avo Piht. I detta sammanhang kan nämnas att talrika estniska vittnen har anklagat tyska ZDF för att senare ha klippt bort de skvenser där Avo Piht syns. Dessutom vet jag genom en tysk journalist på TV- och radiostationen NDR att det finns en akt om Estonia hos BND.
När Jutta Rabe i Spiegel TV försökte få ut en kopia av intervjun med den svenska sjöräddningsmannen i estniska Radio Kuku, meddelade chefen för att estniska säkerhetstjänsten beslagtagit denna intervju. Därav kan härledas att även estniska säkerhetspolisen är inblandad i Estoniaärendet.
I februari 1996 lanserades den sk FELIX-rapporten via Cypern, där Estonias rederi var formellt registrerat. FELIX-rapporten är en rapport om organiserad brottslighet i de före detta sovjetiska kolonierna i Baltikum.
Upphovsmännen är den sk FELIX-gruppen uppkallad efter Felix Dzerzjinskij, den grumme grundaren av den sovjetiska säkerhetstjänsten, som sedermera blev KGB.
FELIX-gruppens medlemmar härstammar från KGB och liknande underrättelsetjänster i det forna Sovjetunionen. De bedriver numera militär underrättelseverksamhet i det moderna Ryssland.
I denna rapport lämnas också en förklaring till Estoniaolyckan. Den estniska maffian som konkurrerar hårt med den ryska maffian, skall ha smugglat radioaktiva ämnen ombord på Estonia den aktuella natten och blivit förrådd i den svenska tullen. Detta upptäcktes i rätt tid varpå maffian skall ha beordrat kaptenen att öppna bogvisiret och dumpa lasten trots att full storm rådde.
Personligen tror jag inte att katastrofen gick till så. Det är inte där värdet i FELIX-rapporten ligger. Det intressanta med denna rapport är istället att även den ryska militära underrättelsetjänsten har befattat sig med Estonia-katastrofen.
En källa i Stockholm har uppgett för tyska Spiegel TVs Jutta Rabe att en representant från den ryska underrättelsetjänsten fick närvara på dykplattformen när Sjöfartsverket i dec. 1994 genomförde de enda officiella dykningarna på Estonia. Denne man hade till och med befogenhet att dirigera två dykare. De skulle gå in i vraket och leta efter en civilklädd person som hade en diplomatväska fastkedjad vid sin hand. Han var intresserad av innehållet i denna väska.
När Jutta Rabe i mars 1997 berättade detta för mig, tyckte jag att det lät mycket osannolikt. Men Andi Meister intervjuades några månader senare i DN. Han uppgav då att dykarbetet i dec. 1994 var mycket slarvigt och bristfälligt utfört. Istället för att koncentrera sig på väsentligheter såsom bildäck och liknande, hade dykarna t ex fått i uppgift att gräva i en passagerares diplomatväska.
Källor till Jutta Rabe, bl a spionen dr Marek och FELIX-rapporten, uppger att minst en av de amerikanska säkerhetstjänsterna är inblandad i Estoniafrågan. Denna ligger antagligen bakom en rad inbrott som skett i en privatvilla som bebos av Jutta Rabes viktiga källor. Inkräktarna var utrustade med moderna head-sets (hörlurar med mikrofon) och talade amerikanska. De försvann omedelbart när de blev upptäckta.
Vid ett anonymt telefonsamtal till Gunnar Bendréus uppgav en svenskspråkig man som talade med amerikansk brytning att han på uppdrag av amerikansk säkerhetstjänst under våren 1997 varit nere vid Estonia för att förstöra bevis.
Att minst en av USAs säkerhetstjänster skulle vara inblandad i Estoniafrågan kan inte klart bevisas som i övriga fall. Personligen är jag dock mycket benägen att anta att så är fallet. Enligt min gissning är det också den amerikanska säkerhetstjänsten som samordnar all mörkläggning kring Estonia. Slutligen ska vi inte glömma att Styrelsen för Psykologiskt Försvar är en gren av de militära underrättelsetjänsten, dvs de anhöriga var tvungna att rapportera direkt till underrättelsetjänsten.
Det kan alltså definitivt konstateras att svensk, rysk, estnisk och tysk säkerhetstjänst samt antagligen även amerikansk säkerhetstjänst är inblandade i Estoniafrågan. Detta förnekas från samtliga håll. Vad har de med en oskyldig civil passa-gerarfärja att göra, nu när det kalla kriget är slut?
http://members.tripod.com/~MV_Estonia/piht.html
Rescued and disappeared Captain Avo Piht was seen helping passengers with life jackets during the sinking on deck 7. He rescued himself in a life raft together with Variety Dancer Hannely Veide and Hanka-Hannika Veide. Avo Piht was not on duty the night of the accident. According to the Finnish evening newspaper "Iltalehti" the boat had two captains, at least one of whom survived. In Swedish news, helicopter crew told the press that the Second, Captain Avo Piht just was rescued. The news was sent in channel 4 news. Piht was also seen in ZDF news around 1.30 p.m. by several witnesses, among those Jannika Ade who used to work on M/V Estonia.
On 28.09.94 in the morning the news of the Estonian Radio, Estonian TV, Finnish TV announce the rescue of A. Piht. A Swedish helicopter had rescued A. Piht.
On 28.09.94 at 2.30 p.m. phoned Captain Erich Moik from MV Mare Balticum in Rostock , telling that Estonian sailors saw rescued A. Piht on ZDF news.
In the evening of 28.09.94 E. Madisson phoned on Swedish phone number 666 60 56, from which was said that A. Piht was alive and rescued. The same news was repeated to L. Garder on 29.09.94.
On 30.09.94 Chief of Security Department of the Swedish Department of Water Transportation, Mr. Bengt Erik Stenmark gives an interview to Reuter News Agency telling that commission, dealing with the catastrophe has talked to A. Piht. Mr. Stenmark has not refuted his claim.
On 01.10.94 representative of "Estline", Mr. Yrjö Saarinen show a telefax dated from the 28:th of September, where A. Piht born in 1954 is on the list of the rescued.
On 02.10.94 a message from reliable sources tell that from Sweden has arrived a fax to the Ministry of International Affairs telling that among other names of rescued are both A. Piht and A. Targama.
To be marked on the earlier list the persons rescued had to state their name themselves.
Update 1999.04.10
Piht is wanted by INTERPOL. On 7:th of October 1994 INTERPOL Tallinn issued a description of A. Piht with attached picture, wanted in connection of the criminal case no. 94980041 regarding MS Estonia.
__________________________________________________
http://members.tripod.com/~MV_Estonia/Index.html
links...
http://members.tripod.com/~MV_Estonia/rescued.html
Rescued and disappeared Captain Avo Piht was seen helping passengers with life jackets during the sinking on deck 7. He rescued himself in a life raft together with Variety Dancer Hannely Veide and Hanka-Hannika Veide. Avo Piht was not on duty the night of the accident. According to the Finnish evening newspaper "Iltalehti" the boat had two captains, at least one of whom survived. In Swedish news, helicopter crew told the press that the Second, Captain Avo Piht just was rescued. The news was sent in channel 4 news. Piht was also seen in ZDF news around 1.30 p.m. by several witnesses, among those Jannika Ade who used to work on M/V Estonia.
On 28.09.94 in the morning the news of the Estonian Radio, Estonian TV, Finnish TV announce the rescue of A. Piht. A Swedish helicopter had rescued A. Piht.
On 28.09.94 at 2.30 p.m. phoned Captain Erich Moik from MV Mare Balticum in Rostock , telling that Estonian sailors saw rescued A. Piht on ZDF news.
In the evening of 28.09.94 E. Madisson phoned on Swedish phone number 666 60 56, from which was said that A. Piht was alive and rescued. The same news was repeated to L. Garder on 29.09.94.
On 30.09.94 Chief of Security Department of the Swedish Department of Water Transportation, Mr. Bengt Erik Stenmark gives an interview to Reuter News Agency telling that commission, dealing with the catastrophe has talked to A. Piht. Mr. Stenmark has not refuted his claim.
On 01.10.94 representative of "Estline", Mr. Yrjö Saarinen show a telefax dated from the 28:th of September, where A. Piht born in 1954 is on the list of the rescued.
On 02.10.94 a message from reliable sources tell that from Sweden has arrived a fax to the Ministry of International Affairs telling that among other names of rescued are both A. Piht and A. Targama.
To be marked on the earlier list the persons rescued had to state their name themselves.
Update 1999.04.10
Piht is wanted by INTERPOL. On 7:th of October 1994 INTERPOL Tallinn issued a description of A. Piht with attached picture, wanted in connection of the criminal case no. 94980041 regarding MS Estonia.
__________________________________________________
http://members.tripod.com/~MV_Estonia/Index.html
QUOTE
This site is a result of the search of the real reason to the M/V Estonia disaster 28/9-1994 in the Baltic sea just south of Utö Island.
There are some sites trying to show what really happened out there this tragic night. Most of the sites however, are just a mirror of the conclusion from the Joint Accident Investigation Commission (JAIC), and they are not telling the truth.
A lot of very important facts are left aside so that the story given by JAIC will fit the very first version of the accident, made up already before they found the wreck or the visor.
On this site a lot of facts earlier left behind are brought in to the daylight, giving the disaster a new tragic perspective, where it becomes clear that the investigation of the disaster is a massive cover up of the real cause to the disaster.
Note: The content on this site is not representing final conclusions. New evidence and information are continuously revealed, therefore this site will not be updated any more. Further development will be described on The Independent Fact Group site.
There are some sites trying to show what really happened out there this tragic night. Most of the sites however, are just a mirror of the conclusion from the Joint Accident Investigation Commission (JAIC), and they are not telling the truth.
A lot of very important facts are left aside so that the story given by JAIC will fit the very first version of the accident, made up already before they found the wreck or the visor.
On this site a lot of facts earlier left behind are brought in to the daylight, giving the disaster a new tragic perspective, where it becomes clear that the investigation of the disaster is a massive cover up of the real cause to the disaster.
Note: The content on this site is not representing final conclusions. New evidence and information are continuously revealed, therefore this site will not be updated any more. Further development will be described on The Independent Fact Group site.
links...
http://members.tripod.com/~MV_Estonia/rescued.html
QUOTE
Eight (8) crew members of the M/V Estonia were rescued and they has all disappeared within the first 5 days after the disaster, leaving no tracks what so ever. Five of the crew were high officers with the Captain Avo Piht as the highest officer. The three other were women employed on the ship.
It is a fact that no other passenger that should have been rescued has disappeared afterwards. It is also a fact that no other high officer did survive. This is strange in many aspects. First of all the high officers were having their cabins at deck 7 and 8 and were very close to the life boats and life rafts. They were also those that first should have known that something was wrong. It is said that many of the crew were drunk as they were having a party, but this can not be confirmed from the victims as only 3 of 95 had more than 0.5 promille alcohol in blood.
It is said, but not a fact, that Avo Piht and Tiina Müür and the two sisters Veide were in the same life raft when rescued.
What other have they got in common?
* Navigation Officer Kaimar Kikas and Engineer Agur Targama were both IV:th officers that should be at duty after midnight.
* They were all Estonian.
* Lembit Leiger, Tiina Müür, Hannely Veide and her sister Hanka-Hannika has all disappeared after being in Swedish hospitals.
* Lembit Leiger, Viktor Bogdanov, Hannely Veide and her sister Hanka-Hannika has all been confirmed rescued and alive by the Swedish police
It is a fact that no other passenger that should have been rescued has disappeared afterwards. It is also a fact that no other high officer did survive. This is strange in many aspects. First of all the high officers were having their cabins at deck 7 and 8 and were very close to the life boats and life rafts. They were also those that first should have known that something was wrong. It is said that many of the crew were drunk as they were having a party, but this can not be confirmed from the victims as only 3 of 95 had more than 0.5 promille alcohol in blood.
It is said, but not a fact, that Avo Piht and Tiina Müür and the two sisters Veide were in the same life raft when rescued.
What other have they got in common?
* Navigation Officer Kaimar Kikas and Engineer Agur Targama were both IV:th officers that should be at duty after midnight.
* They were all Estonian.
* Lembit Leiger, Tiina Müür, Hannely Veide and her sister Hanka-Hannika has all disappeared after being in Swedish hospitals.
* Lembit Leiger, Viktor Bogdanov, Hannely Veide and her sister Hanka-Hannika has all been confirmed rescued and alive by the Swedish police
They just have to link it directly to Rums Cheniac or Smegal
THen prosecute them on war crimes. Was this the reason for JK to go abroad?
THen prosecute them on war crimes. Was this the reason for JK to go abroad?
You trust a british figure (whose country is involved in torture scandal as we speak) to speak of forms of torture. I think the timing of this story is quite Ironic. He did not say US had the boiling done to their prisoners did he! I have come acroos many cases, .....did not specify US cases. I bet you'd believe them if they told you we had a secret jet to usher Bin Laden around too. I think, given the terrorists actions, they deserve at minimum death. Their goal is to kill you, and if you want to be a martyr for the anti-violence movement go right ahead. As for me and my loved ones, if they torture these guys and it winds up saving one of our lives with information gained, GOOD JOB!!
QUOTE(onlyinNY @ Jan 19 2005, 07:52 AM)
You trust a british figure (whose country is involved in torture scandal as we speak) to speak of forms of torture. I think the timing of this story is quite Ironic. He did not say US had the boiling done to their prisoners did he! I have come acroos many cases, .....did not specify US cases. I bet you'd believe them if they told you we had a secret jet to usher Bin Laden around too. I think, given the terrorists actions, they deserve at minimum death. Their goal is to kill you, and if you want to be a martyr for the anti-violence movement go right ahead. As for me and my loved ones, if they torture these guys and it winds up saving one of our lives with information gained, GOOD JOB!!
There are acceptable limits to torture under the Geneva Convention.
when you start throwing out treaties and conventions all countries
tend to start improvising and making judgement calls.
We try to be a civilized nation. The article does not state as you mentioned any direct links, yet Blair is under more pressure and direct scrutiny with the HOP than Smegal
This admin is guilty of treason on America. Violating the basic tenets of govt
Make knowling false statements under oath which is perjury and fraud.
QUOTE(gmanders777 @ Jan 19 2005, 09:25 AM)
There are acceptable limits to torture under the Geneva Convention.
when you start throwing out treaties and conventions all countries
tend to start improvising and making judgement calls.
We try to be a civilized nation. The article does not state as you mentioned any direct links, yet Blair is under more pressure and direct scrutiny with the HOP than Smegal
This admin is guilty of treason on America. Violating the basic tenets of govt
Make knowling false statements under oath which is perjury and fraud.
when you start throwing out treaties and conventions all countries
tend to start improvising and making judgement calls.
We try to be a civilized nation. The article does not state as you mentioned any direct links, yet Blair is under more pressure and direct scrutiny with the HOP than Smegal
This admin is guilty of treason on America. Violating the basic tenets of govt
Make knowling false statements under oath which is perjury and fraud.
Heres a link to british torture story. Happy now?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/4185719.stm Guess someone doesn't watch the news, anyway Watch it, The British torture scandal is getting bigger press.
These terrorists threw out Geneva convention, not me. Beheadings, kidnapping aid workers, desecrating bodies in the streets. These are all violations of "fair" warfare. Only a fool fights fair when the other side doesn't. You cannot apply Geneva convention as well when THE MAIN TARGET OF YOUR OPPOSITION IS CIVILIANS. Thats a crime that deserves the most severe consequences. Where are all the anti-war/torture activists crying for beheaded and murdered civilians on our side? They do not exist!! Seems its ok for our enemies to fight dirty, but not us. Thats a sure way to lose. We are practicing fairly good restraint considering 911, If that was China or Russia, Do you think they would have done so little? You can bet you would see terrorists heads rolling in the streets.
Sen. Dodd just asked Dr. Rice about this practice. She of coursed denied the torture, she did not deny the transfer. Get trascripts from senate confirmation hearings.
QUOTE(Weneedchange @ Jan 19 2005, 09:43 AM)
Sen. Dodd just asked Dr. Rice about this practice. She of coursed denied the torture, she did not deny the transfer. Get trascripts from senate confirmation hearings.
So now we cannot move prisoners of war? Perhaps they were moved simply to avoid lawyers getting on their cases. Detaining terrorists is fine by me. A lawyer gets into these cases, maybe some information we want hidden gets released, like what the suspects know or their identities? How long were they in our country before they were moved? Maybe it was a case of keeping a trail hot.Wheres all the facts? Is there absolute evidence of us "BOILING PEOPLE" as this post infers? No!!
what about Estonia disaster survivors?
dancers threat to security now?
or just to dirty secrets men in power rather not have exposed?
it gives an eery feeling when kidnapping people off the streets without any proof or any legal paperwork is justified.
who gives the usa's dod the divine right to kidnap people around the world as they see fit??
did you pay ANY ATTN to one of the swedish immigrant RELEASED AS INNOCENT after TWO YEARS of interrogating???
what would you confess to after 2 months?
and further disgrace to swedish authorities... becoming a tradition
dancers threat to security now?
or just to dirty secrets men in power rather not have exposed?
it gives an eery feeling when kidnapping people off the streets without any proof or any legal paperwork is justified.
who gives the usa's dod the divine right to kidnap people around the world as they see fit??
did you pay ANY ATTN to one of the swedish immigrant RELEASED AS INNOCENT after TWO YEARS of interrogating???
what would you confess to after 2 months?
and further disgrace to swedish authorities... becoming a tradition
QUOTE(onlyinNY @ Jan 19 2005, 10:53 AM)
So now we cannot move prisoners of war? Perhaps they were moved simply to avoid lawyers getting on their cases...
What news paper are you using the folks in cuba are NOT repeat NOT prisoners of war. Most people on both sides agree with that since that would mean they have rights under the Geneva Conventions http://www.genevaconventions.org/.
What information was release in regards to the detainees in Cuba, other than their living conditions. I haven't heard of any national security secrets being release.
Where are your sources - other than FOX NEWS?
QUOTE(gabriellemy @ Jan 19 2005, 10:10 AM)
what about Estonia disaster survivors?
dancers threat to security now?
or just to dirty secrets men in power rather not have exposed?
it gives an eery feeling when kidnapping people off the streets without any proof or any legal paperwork is justified.
who gives the usa's dod the divine right to kidnap people around the world as they see fit??
did you pay ANY ATTN to one of the swedish immigrant RELEASED AS INNOCENT after TWO YEARS of interrogating???
what would you confess to after 2 months?
and further disgrace to swedish authorities... becoming a tradition
dancers threat to security now?
or just to dirty secrets men in power rather not have exposed?
it gives an eery feeling when kidnapping people off the streets without any proof or any legal paperwork is justified.
who gives the usa's dod the divine right to kidnap people around the world as they see fit??
did you pay ANY ATTN to one of the swedish immigrant RELEASED AS INNOCENT after TWO YEARS of interrogating???
what would you confess to after 2 months?
and further disgrace to swedish authorities... becoming a tradition
When someone states an argument using false or unproven accusations to drum up excitement and contoversy (like US boiling people) , I simply discard the whole argument! Its basically tainted and biased by the title. Sorry, its your methodof delivering message, not ALL of its content.
QUOTE(Weneedchange @ Jan 19 2005, 10:13 AM)
What news paper are you using the folks in cuba are NOT repeat NOT prisoners of war. Most people on both sides agree with that since that would mean they have rights under the Geneva Conventions http://www.genevaconventions.org/.
What information was release in regards to the detainees in Cuba, other than their living conditions. I haven't heard of any national security secrets being release.
Where are your sources - other than FOX NEWS?
What information was release in regards to the detainees in Cuba, other than their living conditions. I haven't heard of any national security secrets being release.
Where are your sources - other than FOX NEWS?
WEhats the source used here? MORE ACCURATE THEN FOX? Come on, Boiling people inferences that are unproven, ITS PROPOGANDA. Just garbage, talk about true things, title a post accurately and I'll give it more credence!! Its not message, its false inferences I object too!!
QUOTE(onlyinNY @ Jan 19 2005, 10:18 AM)
WEhats the source used here? MORE ACCURATE THEN FOX? Come on, Boiling people inferences that are unproven, ITS PROPOGANDA. Just garbage, talk about true things, title a post accurately and I'll give it more credence!! Its not message, its false inferences I object too!!
You simply discard all arguments but your own
You never quote or cite real facts. Step out of your shell. Archie Bunker
got cancelled
QUOTE(onlyinNY @ Jan 19 2005, 05:16 PM)
When someone states an argument using false or unproven accusations to drum up excitement and contoversy (like US boiling people) , I simply discard the whole argument! Its basically tainted and biased by the title. Sorry, its your methodof delivering message, not ALL of its content.
perhaps you should start paying attn to the MESSAGE:
QUOTE
The Gulfstream made at least seven trips to Uzbekistan, a dictatorship allied with the United States in the “war on terror,” where, the Times wrote, the “secret police are notorious for their interrogation methods, including the alleged boiling of prisoners.”
“I have come across many cases of rape in front of family members who they wish to extract information from,” Craig Murray, the former British ambassador to Uzbekistan, said recently on Swedish television. “I have post mortem photos of a corpse,” Murray said. “These show that the person was boiled to death.”
“I have come across many cases of rape in front of family members who they wish to extract information from,” Craig Murray, the former British ambassador to Uzbekistan, said recently on Swedish television. “I have post mortem photos of a corpse,” Murray said. “These show that the person was boiled to death.”
now...repeat after me: Uzbekistan.... Uzbekistan... UZBEKISTAN....
if you are not happy with my post, please be at least accurate as to contents - saw yesterday that doc 'fox-one man's news' and i'm getting a flashback of o'reilly here...
QUOTE(gmanders777 @ Jan 19 2005, 10:21 AM)
You simply discard all arguments but your own
You never quote or cite real facts. Step out of your shell. Archie Bunker
got cancelled
You never quote or cite real facts. Step out of your shell. Archie Bunker
got cancelled
I posted your link, you simply are innaccurate again. The boiling people inference is sheer garbage. I refute anyone who writes trash like that. YOU DEFEND THEM AND INSULT ME? Climb out of your shell, your a bleeding heart liberal who would be against the death penalty til someone you know gets murdered,Youd rather watch US guys get beheaded and take moral high ground, BUT YOU'D SING A DIFFERENT SONG IF IT EFFECTED YOU PERSONALLY. Your as hypocritical as Nancy Reagan pushing for stem cell research in her conservative Hubbys name!
QUOTE(gabriellemy @ Jan 19 2005, 10:23 AM)
perhaps you should start paying attn to the MESSAGE:
now...repeat after me: Uzbekistan.... Uzbekistan... UZBEKISTAN....
if you are not happy with my post, please be at least accurate as to contents - saw yesterday that doc 'fox-one man's news' and i'm getting a flashback of o'reilly here...
now...repeat after me: Uzbekistan.... Uzbekistan... UZBEKISTAN....
if you are not happy with my post, please be at least accurate as to contents - saw yesterday that doc 'fox-one man's news' and i'm getting a flashback of o'reilly here...
Your inference was we sendem there to get boiled, ARE YOU NOW BACKING OFF YOUR IMPLIED statements?
what a joke!!!!
QUOTE(onlyinNY @ Jan 19 2005, 10:27 AM)
Your inference was we sendem there to get boiled, ARE YOU NOW BACKING OFF YOUR IMPLIED statements? what a joke!!!!
what a joke!!!!DoD's‘Ghost Planes’ ship people for torture, post, mortem photo-person boiled to death, it says it all here!! You breaking unproven news!! Good Work!!
The congress will confirm the woman that released this man’s name to the public. Our allies were VERY upset because the man was providing very credible information on the terrorist networks. As a result our allies had to arrest suspects before the conclusion of their investigations. Britain and Germany both indicated that the release of his name put their effort backwards.
Read the links:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...08/nterr108.xml
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/03/...ain633609.shtml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3541952.stm
http://www.photodude.com/article/2481/terror-idiots
In fact the name sited in the links "Muhammad Naeem Noor Khan" was the best capture they had in along time with RECENT actionable information.
Some Cable and News Networks do a lot of damage to our country.
You can get get more credible news from our only OFFICIAL fake news show than the so call real news shows.
Check it out you may learn something new. Their fake news is better than some real news, of course it does require you to use other sources than FOX to understand the jokes.
http://www.comedycentral.com/tv_shows/thed...withjonstewart/
Read the links:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...08/nterr108.xml
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/03/...ain633609.shtml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3541952.stm
http://www.photodude.com/article/2481/terror-idiots
In fact the name sited in the links "Muhammad Naeem Noor Khan" was the best capture they had in along time with RECENT actionable information.
Some Cable and News Networks do a lot of damage to our country.
You can get get more credible news from our only OFFICIAL fake news show than the so call real news shows.
Check it out you may learn something new. Their fake news is better than some real news, of course it does require you to use other sources than FOX to understand the jokes.
http://www.comedycentral.com/tv_shows/thed...withjonstewart/
in that doc, a VERY cute reference of some PIPA poll done last autumn - people divided into 2 lots - 'fox' news watchers vs some '3letter-npr'. simple questions were asked.
1. were wmd found in iraq?
YES:
fox - 33%
3l-npr - 11%
2. does the majority of the world agree with US policy(war) in iraq?
YES
fox - 40 something % (or 67%)
npr- 10something %
etc
went like that - to demonstrate that fox watchers have not the most accurate picture of the events going on...
interesting, as much i saw it. rolling credits - moveon.org was behind it.
it'd be really nice if someone could dig up the poll (could have been done in october).
1. were wmd found in iraq?
YES:
fox - 33%
3l-npr - 11%
2. does the majority of the world agree with US policy(war) in iraq?
YES
fox - 40 something % (or 67%)
npr- 10something %
etc
went like that - to demonstrate that fox watchers have not the most accurate picture of the events going on...
interesting, as much i saw it. rolling credits - moveon.org was behind it.
it'd be really nice if someone could dig up the poll (could have been done in october).
QUOTE(Weneedchange @ Jan 19 2005, 10:32 AM)
The congress will confirm the woman that released this man’s name to the public. Our allies were VERY upset because the man was providing very credible information on the terrorist networks. As a result our allies had to arrest suspects before the conclusion of their investigations. Britain and Germany both indicated that the release of his name put their effort backwards.
Read the links:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...08/nterr108.xml
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/03/...ain633609.shtml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3541952.stm
http://www.photodude.com/article/2481/terror-idiots
In fact the name sited in the links "Muhammad Naeem Noor Khan" was the best capture they had in along time with RECENT actionable information.
Some Cable and News Networks do a lot of damage to our country.
You can get get more credible news from our only OFFICIAL fake news show than the so call real news shows.
Read the links:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...08/nterr108.xml
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/03/...ain633609.shtml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3541952.stm
http://www.photodude.com/article/2481/terror-idiots
In fact the name sited in the links "Muhammad Naeem Noor Khan" was the best capture they had in along time with RECENT actionable information.
Some Cable and News Networks do a lot of damage to our country.
You can get get more credible news from our only OFFICIAL fake news show than the so call real news shows.
I did not mean to say your link was fake, just that this post was started totally innacurately. If you start a true post documenting true and confirmed cases, I would be more then happy to read it. I have yet to see an AMERICA BOILS A GUY link. Do you have one? If so which one? It can't be an inferred thing told by a "British official" that may very well be trying to get the heat off of Britain by putting out anti-US propoganda. Im a bit to smart to listen to far fetched inferred trash like that! How about some proof that we boiled someone? Is there ANY?
The polls are probably not that far off since the populations of MOST countries were 80-90% against the Iraq action.
P.S. That population was not limited to europeans. That's why there was only a 'coalition of the willing'?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2862343.stm
I can give links all day. If folks are not willing to seek other sources I can't dig their head out of the sand.
The forum is great because it keeps people some what honest if they don't have an hidden agenda.
P.S. That population was not limited to europeans. That's why there was only a 'coalition of the willing'?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2862343.stm
I can give links all day. If folks are not willing to seek other sources I can't dig their head out of the sand.
The forum is great because it keeps people some what honest if they don't have an hidden agenda.
QUOTE(Weneedchange @ Jan 19 2005, 10:40 AM)
The polls are probably not that far off since the populations of MOST countries were 80-90% against the Iraq action.
P.S. That population was not limited to europeans. That's why there was only a 'coalition of the willing'?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2862343.stm
I can give links all day. If folks are not willing to seek other sources I can't dig their head out of the sand.
The forum is great because it keeps people some what honest if they don't have an hidden agenda.
P.S. That population was not limited to europeans. That's why there was only a 'coalition of the willing'?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2862343.stm
I can give links all day. If folks are not willing to seek other sources I can't dig their head out of the sand.
The forum is great because it keeps people some what honest if they don't have an hidden agenda.
Replying to DoD's‘Ghost Planes’ ship people for torture, post
Yet still no boiling guy link, You cannot post it because its non-existent. You can talk around the facts here, let untrue inferences stand, then tell me my head is in the sand!! Well anyone posting this type of title without proof has there head somewhere....Dunno if its sand or not, but its truly not in a good place!! I do not see how I can be expected to believe anything written here once its been started like this.My suggestion is to start an accurate, non inflammatory post and get this one deleted. Then a truthful message can come out!! Im all for the truth!
you are not being very clear on what you disagree with in the first post.
would that be
1. the existence of dod ghost plane;
2. dod ghost plane used to transport unwilling passengers;
3. 2 egyptians were kidnapped without LEGAL basis;
4. these were americans who kidnapped them;
5. it was the dod plane used to transport them;
6. dod ever stoop to the level of kidnapping;
7. any american agency ever stoop to kidnapping/holding people without LEGAL basis (gitmo, eg);
8. dod ever hand their preciousssss cargo over to other countries;
9. people didn't go missing after estonian disaster (read: end up listed dead few days ;after seen alive on video footage on nationwide tv-channels...)
10. whatever it was that happened to those people, 'ghost plane' had nothing to do with it;
11. any non-us citizen/country ever allowed to critizise/investigaty anything that might cast a shadow to the glory and divinity of anything american?
would that be
1. the existence of dod ghost plane;
2. dod ghost plane used to transport unwilling passengers;
3. 2 egyptians were kidnapped without LEGAL basis;
4. these were americans who kidnapped them;
5. it was the dod plane used to transport them;
6. dod ever stoop to the level of kidnapping;
7. any american agency ever stoop to kidnapping/holding people without LEGAL basis (gitmo, eg);
8. dod ever hand their preciousssss cargo over to other countries;
9. people didn't go missing after estonian disaster (read: end up listed dead few days ;after seen alive on video footage on nationwide tv-channels...)
10. whatever it was that happened to those people, 'ghost plane' had nothing to do with it;
11. any non-us citizen/country ever allowed to critizise/investigaty anything that might cast a shadow to the glory and divinity of anything american?
QUOTE(Weneedchange @ Jan 19 2005, 05:40 PM)
The polls are probably not that far off since the populations of MOST countries were 80-90% against the Iraq action.
P.S. That population was not limited to europeans. That's why there was only a 'coalition of the willing'?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2862343.stm
P.S. That population was not limited to europeans. That's why there was only a 'coalition of the willing'?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2862343.stm
no, no, no!!!
a poll done by PIPA about AMERICANS, to compare how accurately they answer simple questions about news, divided into 2 lots: 'fox news' & something else that had 3letters and -NPR , meaning the source of news for the second lot.
should probably search PIPA polls, unfortunately i don't know what that acronym stands for, what makes the task a little harder
onlyinNY - Please share your "boiling guy link" if it has any credible facts versus suppositions, innuendos, or blasphemies.
If you are in doubt of any definitions please use http://www.m-w.com/ for clarification.
If you are in doubt of any definitions please use http://www.m-w.com/ for clarification.
QUOTE(Weneedchange @ Jan 19 2005, 11:05 AM)
onlyinNY - Please share your "boiling guy link" if it has any credible facts versus suppositions, innuendos, or blasphemies.
If you are in doubt of any definitions please use http://www.m-w.com/ for clarification.
If you are in doubt of any definitions please use http://www.m-w.com/ for clarification.
Gabrielle inferred US sent out our prisoners to be boiled, read her title. I don't see any proof of her accusations. just a big leap into a propogandist type lie.
QUOTE(gabriellemy @ Jan 19 2005, 12:02 PM)
no, no, no!!!
a poll done by PIPA about AMERICANS, to compare how accurately they answer simple questions about news, divided into 2 lots: 'fox news' & something else that had 3letters and -NPR , meaning the source of news for the second lot.
should probably search PIPA polls, unfortunately i don't know what that acronym stands for, what makes the task a little harder
a poll done by PIPA about AMERICANS, to compare how accurately they answer simple questions about news, divided into 2 lots: 'fox news' & something else that had 3letters and -NPR , meaning the source of news for the second lot.
should probably search PIPA polls, unfortunately i don't know what that acronym stands for, what makes the task a little harder
Based on your site "According to a new BBC World Service Poll of twenty-one countries from all regions of the world, the reelection of President Bush is seen as negative for world peace and security by a majority in sixteen countries and a plurality in another two."
Let's hope GWB is willing to reverse this view in the next 4 years.
Check out - Program on International Policy Attitudes (PIPA) of the University of Maryland http://www.pipa.org/index.html
I found your survey it's very interesting http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Iraq/Med...02_03_Press.pdf.
QUOTE(gabriellemy @ Jan 19 2005, 06:02 PM)
no, no, no!!!
a poll done by PIPA about AMERICANS, to compare how accurately they answer simple questions about news, divided into 2 lots: 'fox news' & something else that had 3letters and -NPR , meaning the source of news for the second lot.
should probably search PIPA polls, unfortunately i don't know what that acronym stands for, what makes the task a little harder
a poll done by PIPA about AMERICANS, to compare how accurately they answer simple questions about news, divided into 2 lots: 'fox news' & something else that had 3letters and -NPR , meaning the source of news for the second lot.
should probably search PIPA polls, unfortunately i don't know what that acronym stands for, what makes the task a little harder
GOTCHA!!!!
http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Pres_Ele...w_10_21_04.html
QUOTE
Bush Supporters Still Believe Iraq Had WMD or Major Program,
Supported al Qaeda
Agree with Kerry Supporters Bush Administration Still Saying This is the Case
Agree US Should Not Have Gone to War if No WMD or Support for al Qaeda
Bush Supporters Misperceive World Public as Not Opposed to Iraq War,
Favoring Bush Reelection
Even after the final report of Charles Duelfer to Congress saying that Iraq did not have a significant WMD program, 72% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq had actual WMD (47%) or a major program for developing them (25%). Fifty-six percent assume that most experts believe Iraq had actual WMD and 57% also assume, incorrectly, that Duelfer concluded Iraq had at least a major WMD program. Kerry supporters hold opposite beliefs on all these points.
Similarly, 75% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda, and 63% believe that clear evidence of this support has been found. Sixty percent of Bush supporters assume that this is also the conclusion of most experts, and 55% assume, incorrectly, that this was the conclusion of the 9/11 Commission. Here again, large majorities of Kerry supporters have exactly opposite perceptions.
These are some of the findings of a new study of the differing perceptions of Bush and Kerry supporters, conducted by the Program on International Policy Attitudes and Knowledge Networks, based on polls conducted in September and October.
Supported al Qaeda
Agree with Kerry Supporters Bush Administration Still Saying This is the Case
Agree US Should Not Have Gone to War if No WMD or Support for al Qaeda
Bush Supporters Misperceive World Public as Not Opposed to Iraq War,
Favoring Bush Reelection
Even after the final report of Charles Duelfer to Congress saying that Iraq did not have a significant WMD program, 72% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq had actual WMD (47%) or a major program for developing them (25%). Fifty-six percent assume that most experts believe Iraq had actual WMD and 57% also assume, incorrectly, that Duelfer concluded Iraq had at least a major WMD program. Kerry supporters hold opposite beliefs on all these points.
Similarly, 75% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda, and 63% believe that clear evidence of this support has been found. Sixty percent of Bush supporters assume that this is also the conclusion of most experts, and 55% assume, incorrectly, that this was the conclusion of the 9/11 Commission. Here again, large majorities of Kerry supporters have exactly opposite perceptions.
These are some of the findings of a new study of the differing perceptions of Bush and Kerry supporters, conducted by the Program on International Policy Attitudes and Knowledge Networks, based on polls conducted in September and October.
want more of that?
I am asking for proof of US condoning, complying, or sending out prisoners to be boiled! And all I'm getting is links to semi-related things. The links do show stuff thats important, yes, but do not support the tone nor inference of this post.Its propoganda. Start an honest post, And I will read the links, I might even agree with you on some things.
QUOTE(onlyinNY @ Jan 19 2005, 10:25 AM)
I posted your link, you simply are innaccurate again. The boiling people inference is sheer garbage. I refute anyone who writes trash like that. YOU DEFEND THEM AND INSULT ME? Climb out of your shell, your a bleeding heart liberal who would be against the death penalty til someone you know gets murdered,Youd rather watch US guys get beheaded and take moral high ground, BUT YOU'D SING A DIFFERENT SONG IF IT EFFECTED YOU PERSONALLY. Your as hypocritical as Nancy Reagan pushing for stem cell research in her conservative Hubbys name!
Acutally, onlyinny I am a Moderate Republican
Believe 100% in abortion and woman rights
Ole sparky is not used enough when there is clear and un reputable evidence
Would have no trouble taking care of business when required to.
My employee died in the WTC is that close enough
Or my cousin in Iraq and also a memeber of my church died in Iraq
Get off your high horse
Nancy may have had 2nd thoughts about life.
We're all human. Part of the humanity is always wanting to believe without doubt that things a happy for all which makes people vunerable.
I came across this link that helps explain the strategy to make misconceptions reality. http://home.datawest.net/esn-recovery/artcls/disinfo.htm
The king of selling misconceptions and rhetoric of course is "Ari Fleischer". I really miss listening to his White House Conferences.
If anyone has any clout in the White House please ask them to bring back Ari Fleischer.
If I have to listen to lies at least let it be someone who has turned it into an art.
I came across this link that helps explain the strategy to make misconceptions reality. http://home.datawest.net/esn-recovery/artcls/disinfo.htm
The king of selling misconceptions and rhetoric of course is "Ari Fleischer". I really miss listening to his White House Conferences.
If anyone has any clout in the White House please ask them to bring back Ari Fleischer.
If I have to listen to lies at least let it be someone who has turned it into an art.
QUOTE(gmanders777 @ Jan 19 2005, 11:18 AM)
Acutally, onlyinny I am a Moderate Republican
Believe 100% in abortion and woman rights
Ole sparky is not used enough when there is clear and un reputable evidence
Would have no trouble taking care of business when required to.
My employee died in the WTC is that close enough
Or my cousin in Iraq and also a memeber of my church died in Iraq
Get off your high horse
Nancy may have had 2nd thoughts about life.
Believe 100% in abortion and woman rights
Ole sparky is not used enough when there is clear and un reputable evidence
Would have no trouble taking care of business when required to.
My employee died in the WTC is that close enough
Or my cousin in Iraq and also a memeber of my church died in Iraq
Get off your high horse
Nancy may have had 2nd thoughts about life.
Ok I misjudged you somewhat. But i didn't bring abortion in to this, Do not know why you did. Don't think its relevant either. I just want accurate title put to this post. Im tired of anti-us sentiment being used to promote propoganda. I think war is ugly, I think we are in wrong war in Iraq, But I do not like people spreading false information about our military either. We took our lumps for the torture stuff(i believe higher ups used scapegoats) but to MANUFACTURE and misrepresent evidence about our country is not acceptable.
QUOTE(Weneedchange @ Jan 19 2005, 11:32 AM)
We're all human. Part of the humanity is always wanting to believe without doubt that things a happy for all which makes people vunerable.
I came across this link that helps explain the strategy to make misconceptions reality. http://home.datawest.net/esn-recovery/artcls/disinfo.htm
The king of selling misconceptions and rhetoric of course is "Ari Fleischer". I really miss listening to his White House Conferences.
If anyone has any clout in the White House please ask them to bring back Ari Fleischer.
If I have to listen to lies at least let it be someone who has turned it into an art.
I came across this link that helps explain the strategy to make misconceptions reality. http://home.datawest.net/esn-recovery/artcls/disinfo.htm
The king of selling misconceptions and rhetoric of course is "Ari Fleischer". I really miss listening to his White House Conferences.
If anyone has any clout in the White House please ask them to bring back Ari Fleischer.
If I have to listen to lies at least let it be someone who has turned it into an art.
That link was pretty good. Maybe I ought not put my own spin on anothers intentions. I guess i am guilty of that, But it also shows my point as well taken too. Break a link and the chain is wrecked, not nessesarily all the links, but the GENERAL CONCLUSION of it. Thats the thing I have been objecting too, THE general conclusion of this post. THANKS!! and I apologize for misreading intent if I did.
QUOTE(onlyinNY @ Jan 19 2005, 06:44 PM)
That link was pretty good. Maybe I ought not put my own spin on anothers intentions. I guess i am guilty of that, But it also shows my point as well taken too. Break a link and the chain is wrecked, not nessesarily all the links, but the GENERAL CONCLUSION of it. Thats the thing I have been objecting too, THE general conclusion of this post. THANKS!! and I apologize for misreading intent if I did.
and what would be the 'general conclusion' you're talking about???
QUOTE(gabriellemy @ Jan 19 2005, 11:57 AM)
and what would be the 'general conclusion' you're talking about???
Your inflammatory yet untrue title shows it. US is bad, they boil prisoners in other countries. Your simply stating untrue conclusions by inference. Type a truth based post and you will be believed. Its good advice.
QUOTE(onlyinNY @ Jan 19 2005, 07:04 PM)
Your inflammatory yet untrue title shows it. US is bad, they boil prisoners in other countries. Your simply stating untrue conclusions by inference. Type a truth based post and you will be believed. Its good advice.
the title i used to post the topic comes directly from the essence AND the body text of the article.if you have an issue what a british ambassador says, you should take it up with him
if you dont like the article, take it up with afp
how can you say
QUOTE
Your inflammatory yet untrue title shows it. US is bad, they boil prisoners in other countries. Your simply stating untrue conclusions by inference.
- have you first hand information that things like that have NOT happened?i only noticed you saying you don't LIKE such things said - but posted no information proving anything stated in this article false.
adn your
QUOTE
Type a truth based post and you will be believed. Its good advice
is unfortunately uncorrect - a lot of truth is ignored because it does not fit the ideals or notions preferred, denied because it is not likableand vice versa - many lies are very successful exactly because they sound like what the people want to hear and think of themselves, their country
just another quote from pipa:
QUOTE
"The roots of the Bush supporters' resistance to information," according to Steven Kull, "very likely lie in the traumatic experience of 9/11 and equally in the near pitch-perfect leadership that President Bush showed in its immediate wake. This appears to have created a powerful bond between Bush and his supporters--and an idealized image of the President that makes it difficult for his supporters to imagine that he could have made incorrect judgments before the war, that world public opinion could be critical of his policies or that the President could hold foreign policy positions that are at odds with his supporters."
i can understand you not liking the article, but not attacking me in response
btw, had you read the article paying attn to what you were reading, you just might have discovered not only was the emphasis on shipping off, but that *I* had also another emphasis you missed completely...
QUOTE(gabriellemy @ Jan 19 2005, 02:05 AM)
http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/ghost_planes.html
‘Ghost Planes’ Make Suspects Disappear
Pentagon has new secret weapon in ‘war on terror’
By Christopher Bollyn
There has been a flurry of articles recently in the U.S. press about an executive jet used by “American intelligence agencies” to transport abducted “terrorist suspects” for interrogation to third countries that use torture. The mainstream media, however, largely omits essential details about “extraordinary rendition,” a practice begun during the Clinton administration, and ignores the legal questions it raises.
The Sunday Times (UK) wrote about the mystery jet, a Gulfstream 5, on Nov. 14, saying it had obtained the logs of some 300 flights showing “the movements of the Gulfstream 5 leased by agents from the U.S. defense department and the CIA.”
According to the Times, the logs indicate that the U.S. has used the plane to transport abducted “prisoners” to “countries with poor human rights records” where they have been turned over to the authorities for “torture by proxy.”
During the past two years, the plane, which “always” departs from Washington, “has flown to 49 destinations outside America, including the Guantanamo Bay prison camp in Cuba and other U.S. military bases.” Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Morocco, Afghanistan and Uzbekistan are among the foreign destinations of the “torture jet,” which has the registration number N379P.
The Gulfstream made at least seven trips to Uzbekistan, a dictatorship allied with the United States in the “war on terror,” where, the Times wrote, the “secret police are notorious for their interrogation methods, including the alleged boiling of prisoners.”
“I have come across many cases of rape in front of family members who they wish to extract information from,” Craig Murray, the former British ambassador to Uzbekistan, said recently on Swedish television. “I have post mortem photos of a corpse,” Murray said. “These show that the person was boiled to death.”
The Washington Post, Boston Globe and Chicago Tribune all recently reported on the torture jet, but have focused on the phony companies with whom the plane is registered rather than on the serious crimes it is being used to commit.
Much of the information about the “torture flights” has come from a Swedish journalist, Fredrik Laurin, who has produced four television programs about the kidnapping of two Egyptians from Sweden in December 2001.
The four-part Kalla Fakta (Cold Facts) program about the “enforced disappearance” of the two Egyptians, Ahmed Agiza, 39, and Muhammad Al Zery, 33, began on Swedish television on May 17, 2004, and can be viewed on-line. The most important details of the abductions, however, are not found in the U.S. press.
In the afternoon of Dec. 18, 2001, Ahmed Agiza was picked up by police on his way home from Swedish lessons in the western Sweden town of Karlstad. His wife and five children awaited him at home. Meanwhile in Stockholm, Swedish security police, the SÄPO, arrested Al Zery at his job. The two Egyptians were then driven to Bromma airport in Stockholm.
Paul Forell, a policeman with 25 years experience, was stationed at the police station at Bromma airport that night. Forell told Laurin what he observed:
“First came the security police. . . after five or 10 minutes two Americans arrived, in civilian suits, and we stood there for a while talking,” he said. The Americans, he said, were about 35 years old, gave their first names and said they were from the U.S. Embassy.
“Well, then came this group with the arrested men into the station, and everything went very fast,” Forell said. “The arrested men, wearing their own clothes, were shackled hand and foot.”
Asked who brought the men into the station, Forell said: “The Americans. The Swedish policemen stayed behind in the outer, public premises,” he said. “There were three to four men to each of the arrested.” The Americans were “dressed in jeans and shirts, and wearing black masks.”
Forell, a bystander, was the only uniformed policeman. “There was hardly room for me in my own station,” he said.
Laurin described what happened next: The arrested men were placed in the station’s changing-room and, while shackled hand and foot, their clothes were cut off in pieces. When the men were naked, “suppositories of an unknown kind were inserted into their rectums.”
Dressed in diapers and dark overalls, blindfolded and hooded, the men were taken to the cars, Laurin reported.
The Gulfstream 5 with the registration N379P, “flying for the U.S. Department of Defense,” waited several hundred yards away, Laurin said.
“One of the prisoners was placed lying on the floor with his hands and feet cuffed together behind his back. The other was strapped fast in the cabin, with his hands over his head.”
The two arrested Egyptians, about eight Americans and two SÄPO police took off at 9:49 p.m., Kalla Fakta reported. “When the plane landed in Cairo at 3 a.m., the men were turned over to Egyptian intelligence officers.”
“Disguised agents from an elite American military unit, answering directly to the White House, are allowed to take command on Swedish soil, contrary to Swedish law. In a secret and brutal operation, two Egyptians who have asylum in Sweden are kidnapped and brought to Egypt to be tortured,” Kalla Fakta reported. “They are suspected of terrorism, but no evidence is presented.”
After two and a half years of torture in an Egyptian prison, Al Zery was declared innocent and released. Agiza, in a military trial, was sentenced to 25 years in prison.
The Gulfstream 5 has completed at least 72 such operations in more than 30 countries, Laurin reported. And it always follows the same pattern. “After takeoff from its home base in Smithfield, N.C., it makes a short stop at Dulles International Airport, close to CIA headquarters and the Pentagon.
“It flies exclusively to countries that are allied with the U.S. in the fight against terror: Morocco, Libya, Egypt, Jordan, Uzbekistan and Pakistan,” Kalla Fakta reported, “countries where prisoners are kept and interrogated, far beyond the reach of American and international courts.”
U.S. enforced disappearances from Sweden are nothing new, according to journalist Sven Anér. More than 10 years ago, on Sept. 28, 1994, nine Estonian survivors from the Estonia ferry disaster “disappeared” in a similar manner. The day after the sinking, nine crew members were removed from the lists of 146 reported survivors as a Gulfstream 4 (Reg. N971L), and a Boeing 727-200 (Reg. VR-CLM) left Stockholm’s Arlanda airport carrying four and five unregistered passengers each.
Anér has the documents from the airport’s archive that show that the fees for the two airplanes were paid by the U.S. Embassy in Stockholm.
“Enforced disappearance” and torture are “crimes against humanity,” according to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, which the Bush administration opposes.
While inquiries at the Departments of State, Defense and Justice about the legality of “extraordinary renditions” went unanswered, a March 19, 2004, memo from Jack L. Goldsmith, assistant attorney general, clearly reveals the Bush administration’s intent to defy international law.
‘Ghost Planes’ Make Suspects Disappear
Pentagon has new secret weapon in ‘war on terror’
By Christopher Bollyn
There has been a flurry of articles recently in the U.S. press about an executive jet used by “American intelligence agencies” to transport abducted “terrorist suspects” for interrogation to third countries that use torture. The mainstream media, however, largely omits essential details about “extraordinary rendition,” a practice begun during the Clinton administration, and ignores the legal questions it raises.
The Sunday Times (UK) wrote about the mystery jet, a Gulfstream 5, on Nov. 14, saying it had obtained the logs of some 300 flights showing “the movements of the Gulfstream 5 leased by agents from the U.S. defense department and the CIA.”
According to the Times, the logs indicate that the U.S. has used the plane to transport abducted “prisoners” to “countries with poor human rights records” where they have been turned over to the authorities for “torture by proxy.”
During the past two years, the plane, which “always” departs from Washington, “has flown to 49 destinations outside America, including the Guantanamo Bay prison camp in Cuba and other U.S. military bases.” Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Morocco, Afghanistan and Uzbekistan are among the foreign destinations of the “torture jet,” which has the registration number N379P.
The Gulfstream made at least seven trips to Uzbekistan, a dictatorship allied with the United States in the “war on terror,” where, the Times wrote, the “secret police are notorious for their interrogation methods, including the alleged boiling of prisoners.”
“I have come across many cases of rape in front of family members who they wish to extract information from,” Craig Murray, the former British ambassador to Uzbekistan, said recently on Swedish television. “I have post mortem photos of a corpse,” Murray said. “These show that the person was boiled to death.”
The Washington Post, Boston Globe and Chicago Tribune all recently reported on the torture jet, but have focused on the phony companies with whom the plane is registered rather than on the serious crimes it is being used to commit.
Much of the information about the “torture flights” has come from a Swedish journalist, Fredrik Laurin, who has produced four television programs about the kidnapping of two Egyptians from Sweden in December 2001.
The four-part Kalla Fakta (Cold Facts) program about the “enforced disappearance” of the two Egyptians, Ahmed Agiza, 39, and Muhammad Al Zery, 33, began on Swedish television on May 17, 2004, and can be viewed on-line. The most important details of the abductions, however, are not found in the U.S. press.
In the afternoon of Dec. 18, 2001, Ahmed Agiza was picked up by police on his way home from Swedish lessons in the western Sweden town of Karlstad. His wife and five children awaited him at home. Meanwhile in Stockholm, Swedish security police, the SÄPO, arrested Al Zery at his job. The two Egyptians were then driven to Bromma airport in Stockholm.
Paul Forell, a policeman with 25 years experience, was stationed at the police station at Bromma airport that night. Forell told Laurin what he observed:
“First came the security police. . . after five or 10 minutes two Americans arrived, in civilian suits, and we stood there for a while talking,” he said. The Americans, he said, were about 35 years old, gave their first names and said they were from the U.S. Embassy.
“Well, then came this group with the arrested men into the station, and everything went very fast,” Forell said. “The arrested men, wearing their own clothes, were shackled hand and foot.”
Asked who brought the men into the station, Forell said: “The Americans. The Swedish policemen stayed behind in the outer, public premises,” he said. “There were three to four men to each of the arrested.” The Americans were “dressed in jeans and shirts, and wearing black masks.”
Forell, a bystander, was the only uniformed policeman. “There was hardly room for me in my own station,” he said.
Laurin described what happened next: The arrested men were placed in the station’s changing-room and, while shackled hand and foot, their clothes were cut off in pieces. When the men were naked, “suppositories of an unknown kind were inserted into their rectums.”
Dressed in diapers and dark overalls, blindfolded and hooded, the men were taken to the cars, Laurin reported.
The Gulfstream 5 with the registration N379P, “flying for the U.S. Department of Defense,” waited several hundred yards away, Laurin said.
“One of the prisoners was placed lying on the floor with his hands and feet cuffed together behind his back. The other was strapped fast in the cabin, with his hands over his head.”
The two arrested Egyptians, about eight Americans and two SÄPO police took off at 9:49 p.m., Kalla Fakta reported. “When the plane landed in Cairo at 3 a.m., the men were turned over to Egyptian intelligence officers.”
“Disguised agents from an elite American military unit, answering directly to the White House, are allowed to take command on Swedish soil, contrary to Swedish law. In a secret and brutal operation, two Egyptians who have asylum in Sweden are kidnapped and brought to Egypt to be tortured,” Kalla Fakta reported. “They are suspected of terrorism, but no evidence is presented.”
After two and a half years of torture in an Egyptian prison, Al Zery was declared innocent and released. Agiza, in a military trial, was sentenced to 25 years in prison.
The Gulfstream 5 has completed at least 72 such operations in more than 30 countries, Laurin reported. And it always follows the same pattern. “After takeoff from its home base in Smithfield, N.C., it makes a short stop at Dulles International Airport, close to CIA headquarters and the Pentagon.
“It flies exclusively to countries that are allied with the U.S. in the fight against terror: Morocco, Libya, Egypt, Jordan, Uzbekistan and Pakistan,” Kalla Fakta reported, “countries where prisoners are kept and interrogated, far beyond the reach of American and international courts.”
U.S. enforced disappearances from Sweden are nothing new, according to journalist Sven Anér. More than 10 years ago, on Sept. 28, 1994, nine Estonian survivors from the Estonia ferry disaster “disappeared” in a similar manner. The day after the sinking, nine crew members were removed from the lists of 146 reported survivors as a Gulfstream 4 (Reg. N971L), and a Boeing 727-200 (Reg. VR-CLM) left Stockholm’s Arlanda airport carrying four and five unregistered passengers each.
Anér has the documents from the airport’s archive that show that the fees for the two airplanes were paid by the U.S. Embassy in Stockholm.
“Enforced disappearance” and torture are “crimes against humanity,” according to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, which the Bush administration opposes.
While inquiries at the Departments of State, Defense and Justice about the legality of “extraordinary renditions” went unanswered, a March 19, 2004, memo from Jack L. Goldsmith, assistant attorney general, clearly reveals the Bush administration’s intent to defy international law.
Thank's for posting this gabrielle. I made a post about this on the Kerry forum. When people in Sweden found out about this, they were outraged at their government for allowing this.
The method of torture, boiling included was left to the disgression of the country the prisoners were kidnapped to, and some countries are known to use boiling as a way of torture...It is about time this came out in the American media...
the another emphasis:
after only TEN YEARS of rebuking wacko conspiracy theorists making ridiculous claims about soviet military 'stuff' being smuggled via 'Estonia', Swedish government is saying they started an investigation about soviet (electronics) bought & shipped aboard 'Estonia' to Sweden... no specifics how long, but they are currently saying they have no information of military stuff being aboard 'Estonia' on that night..
just some people here have sworn for years a car went aboard that didn't go through customs... security police taking logs of that night and noone knows where these are now.. a lot of rumours about 'things' ...
but IF those peole that 'boarded' the ghost ship then WERE 'Estonia' survivors, then this would give a whole new dimension to the story: after all, which country makes more sense as buying soviet stuff - the 'ever neutral' sweden or perhaps another country, sweden being only the mediary..
not to forget, last soviet troops left in august 31, 1994, that be LESS THAN A MONTH before september 28, 1994... the timespan not being a ludicrously big one for something to have been aboard 'Estonia' that night.
the findings are to be reported on this friday, january 21st. don't expect anything sensational though. hear the mantra: deny anything that cannot be proved...
after only TEN YEARS of rebuking wacko conspiracy theorists making ridiculous claims about soviet military 'stuff' being smuggled via 'Estonia', Swedish government is saying they started an investigation about soviet (electronics) bought & shipped aboard 'Estonia' to Sweden... no specifics how long, but they are currently saying they have no information of military stuff being aboard 'Estonia' on that night..
just some people here have sworn for years a car went aboard that didn't go through customs... security police taking logs of that night and noone knows where these are now.. a lot of rumours about 'things' ...
but IF those peole that 'boarded' the ghost ship then WERE 'Estonia' survivors, then this would give a whole new dimension to the story: after all, which country makes more sense as buying soviet stuff - the 'ever neutral' sweden or perhaps another country, sweden being only the mediary..
not to forget, last soviet troops left in august 31, 1994, that be LESS THAN A MONTH before september 28, 1994... the timespan not being a ludicrously big one for something to have been aboard 'Estonia' that night.
the findings are to be reported on this friday, january 21st. don't expect anything sensational though. hear the mantra: deny anything that cannot be proved...
QUOTE(onlyinNY @ Jan 19 2005, 07:53 AM)
So now we cannot move prisoners of war? Perhaps they were moved simply to avoid lawyers getting on their cases. Detaining terrorists is fine by me. A lawyer gets into these cases, maybe some information we want hidden gets released, like what the suspects know or their identities? How long were they in our country before they were moved? Maybe it was a case of keeping a trail hot.Wheres all the facts? Is there absolute evidence of us "BOILING PEOPLE" as this post infers? No!!
Do you seriously agree with depriving people of their right to counsel? Don't you agree that people are innocent until proven guilty?
Perhaps you are not aware that many people who have been detained in Afghanistan, Guantanamo Bay, etc. have been innocent of any wrong-doing. The same applies to many people who have been "rendered" to countries that practice torture.
The innocent people who were treated in this way might not have been enemies of the USA before but they are now. If you can't see how that's dangerous for Americans, you have a problem.
QUOTE(onlyinNY @ Jan 19 2005, 08:16 AM)
When someone states an argument using false or unproven accusations to drum up excitement and contoversy (like US boiling people) , I simply discard the whole argument! Its basically tainted and biased by the title. Sorry, its your method of delivering message, not ALL of its content.
gabriellemy never stated that the US boiled people. She/he referred to an article stating that the so-called "ghost" planes were being used to ship people to countries with abysmal human rights records. The USA does bear some responsibility for the treatment of these prisoners because they know the way these countries treat prisoners. The prisoners are sent there for precisely that reason.
QUOTE(gabriellemy @ Jan 19 2005, 12:24 PM)
the title i used to post the topic comes directly from the essence AND the body text of the article.
if you have an issue what a british ambassador says, you should take it up with him
if you dont like the article, take it up with afp
how can you say - have you first hand information that things like that have NOT happened?
i only noticed you saying you don't LIKE such things said - but posted no information proving anything stated in this article false.
adn your is unfortunately uncorrect - a lot of truth is ignored because it does not fit the ideals or notions preferred, denied because it is not likable
and vice versa - many lies are very successful exactly because they sound like what the people want to hear and think of themselves, their country
just another quote from pipa:
i can understand you not liking the article, but not attacking me in response
btw, had you read the article paying attn to what you were reading, you just might have discovered not only was the emphasis on shipping off, but that *I* had also another emphasis you missed completely...
if you have an issue what a british ambassador says, you should take it up with him
if you dont like the article, take it up with afp
how can you say - have you first hand information that things like that have NOT happened?
i only noticed you saying you don't LIKE such things said - but posted no information proving anything stated in this article false.
adn your is unfortunately uncorrect - a lot of truth is ignored because it does not fit the ideals or notions preferred, denied because it is not likable
and vice versa - many lies are very successful exactly because they sound like what the people want to hear and think of themselves, their country
just another quote from pipa:
i can understand you not liking the article, but not attacking me in response
btw, had you read the article paying attn to what you were reading, you just might have discovered not only was the emphasis on shipping off, but that *I* had also another emphasis you missed completely...
Im not the post starter, you are, you posted a link that certainly infers US sends out prisoners to be boiled, Its unproven, YOU HAVE NO BASIS TO SAY THAT. YOU HAVE NO PROOF, AND WHEN I ASK FOR PROOF YOU SAY>>>>CAN YOU PROVE IT DID NOT HAPPEN? THATS JUST SILLY>
I COULD WRITE A POST INFERRING ANYTHING THEN, AND SAY CAN YOU PROVE IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. THATS A TWISTED LOGIC YOUR USING!!! YOU POSTED A STORY INFERRING US BOILS PEOPLE< WHERES YOUR PROOF OF YOUR ALLEGATIONSD< ITS NOT UP TO ME TO DISPROVE YOUR STATEMENTS ITS UP TO YOU TO BACK THEM UP!! YOU DID NOT< BECAUSE YOU CAN NOT< AND THERES ABSOLUTE PROOF THAT YOU ARE POSTING MISLEADING PROPOGANDA!!!
how can you say - have you first hand information that things like that have NOT happened?
i only noticed you saying you don't LIKE such things said - but posted no information proving anything stated in this article false.
YOU HAVE NOT POSTED ONE LINK TO US BOILING ANYONE, YOUR POST WAS WRITTEN IN A MISLEADING WAY....PROVE YOUR INFERRED ALLEGATION PLEASE YOU CAN"T.
QUOTE(onlyinNY @ Jan 19 2005, 05:52 AM)
You trust a british figure (whose country is involved in torture scandal as we speak) to speak of forms of torture. I think the timing of this story is quite Ironic. He did not say US had the boiling done to their prisoners did he! I have come acroos many cases, .....did not specify US cases. I bet you'd believe them if they told you we had a secret jet to usher Bin Laden around too.
gabriellemy never stated that USA personnel boiled anyone. Incidentally, that is an older story but there are/were pictures on the net. However, whether American personnel actually performed acts of torture themselves or had surrogates in other countries do it for them, the USA is complicit in these crimes. Knowingly shipping people to this kind of fate leaves blood on their hands too.
On a different note, you seem to enjoy trying to create controversy where there is none, just because your reading comprehension is somewhat lacking. You've done the same in other threads previously. You infer a meaning that is not there and accuse people of saying what they did not say. Read and comment on what people actually say instead of looking for innuendo that is not there.
QUOTE(BriannaBee @ Jan 20 2005, 12:22 PM)
gabriellemy never stated that the US boiled people. She/he referred to an article stating that the so-called "ghost" planes were being used to ship people to countries with abysmal human rights records. The USA does bear some responsibility for the treatment of these prisoners because they know the way these countries treat prisoners. The prisoners are sent there for precisely that reason.
DoD's‘Ghost Planes’ ship people for torture, post, mortem photo-person boiled to death
yes she did, by inference. Its propoganda, and very misleading. even offers a photo. NICE TOUCH.
QUOTE(onlyinNY @ Jan 20 2005, 12:35 PM)
DoD's‘Ghost Planes’ ship people for torture, post, mortem photo-person boiled to death
yes she did, by inference. Its propoganda, and very misleading. even offers a photo. NICE TOUCH.
yes she did, by inference. Its propoganda, and very misleading. even offers a photo. NICE TOUCH.
Translate this title please WHAT DOES IT SAY.....Wanna break it down into peices?
Its a big splashy inferred lie, Im not even sure its inferred I think its actually stated....ok here goes
DoD's‘Ghost Planes’ ship people for torture, post, mortem photo-person boiled to death
DOD's "ghost planes"= the subject
SHIP PEOPLE FOR TORTURE= the action
post mortem photo = the proof
PERSON BOILED TO DEATH = the fact being described
ITS ABSOLUTE HORSE CRAP!!
QUOTE(onlyinNY @ Jan 20 2005, 10:35 AM)
DoD's‘Ghost Planes’ ship people for torture, post, mortem photo-person boiled to death
yes she did, by inference. Its propoganda, and very misleading. even offers a photo. NICE TOUCH.
yes she did, by inference. Its propoganda, and very misleading. even offers a photo. NICE TOUCH.
And where does she/he say that the USA boils people - she/he didn't! Any inference is in your imagination. However, the USA does render people to countries that practice torture. Citizens from many countries have been subjected to this practice. The jets have been identified by the call letters (??? - not sure what they're called) on the side of the aircraft, the charter company has been identified, they have been sighted in Sweden along with other countries, etc. If American authorities wanted to keep this quiet, their mistake was in eventually letting some of these people return home after their innocence was proven but also after they'd been subjected to horrific torture.
QUOTE(onlyinNY @ Jan 20 2005, 12:45 PM)
Translate this title please WHAT DOES IT SAY.....Wanna break it down into peices?
Its a big splashy inferred lie, Im not even sure its inferred I think its actually stated....ok here goes
DoD's‘Ghost Planes’ ship people for torture, post, mortem photo-person boiled to death
DOD's "ghost planes"= the subject
SHIP PEOPLE FOR TORTURE= the action
post mortem photo = the proof
PERSON BOILED TO DEATH = the fact being described
ITS ABSOLUTE HORSE CRAP!!
Its a big splashy inferred lie, Im not even sure its inferred I think its actually stated....ok here goes
DoD's‘Ghost Planes’ ship people for torture, post, mortem photo-person boiled to death
DOD's "ghost planes"= the subject
SHIP PEOPLE FOR TORTURE= the action
post mortem photo = the proof
PERSON BOILED TO DEATH = the fact being described
ITS ABSOLUTE HORSE CRAP!!
She then goes onto link stories of torture, and refuses to provide one proven incident that the US ever boiled anyone!!!!
ITS CRAP!!! It is liberal LIMBAUGHISM
QUOTE(BriannaBee @ Jan 20 2005, 12:45 PM)
And where does she/he say that the USA boils people - she/he didn't! Any inference is in your imagination. However, the USA does render people to countries that practice torture. Citizens from many countries have been subjected to this practice. The jets have been identified by the call letters (??? - not sure what they're called) on the side of the aircraft, the charter company has been identified, they have been sighted in Sweden along with other countries, etc. If American authorities wanted to keep this quiet, their mistake was in eventually letting some of these people return home after their innocence was proven but also after they'd been subjected to horrific torture.
And where does she/he say that the USA boils people - she/he didn't! Any inference is in your imagination. RIGHT HERE IN HER TITLE...READ IT !!!
Translate this title please WHAT DOES IT SAY.....Wanna break it down into peices?
Its a big splashy inferred lie, Im not even sure its inferred I think its actually stated....ok here goes
DoD's‘Ghost Planes’ ship people for torture, post, mortem photo-person boiled to death
DOD's "ghost planes"= the subject
SHIP PEOPLE FOR TORTURE= the action
post mortem photo = the proof
PERSON BOILED TO DEATH = the fact being described
ITS ABSOLUTE HORSE CRAP!!
QUOTE(onlyinNY @ Jan 20 2005, 12:50 PM)
And where does she/he say that the USA boils people - she/he didn't! Any inference is in your imagination. RIGHT HERE IN HER TITLE...READ IT !!!
Translate this title please WHAT DOES IT SAY.....Wanna break it down into peices?
Its a big splashy inferred lie, Im not even sure its inferred I think its actually stated....ok here goes
DoD's‘Ghost Planes’ ship people for torture, post, mortem photo-person boiled to death
DOD's "ghost planes"= the subject
SHIP PEOPLE FOR TORTURE= the action
post mortem photo = the proof
PERSON BOILED TO DEATH = the fact being described
ITS ABSOLUTE HORSE CRAP!!
Translate this title please WHAT DOES IT SAY.....Wanna break it down into peices?
Its a big splashy inferred lie, Im not even sure its inferred I think its actually stated....ok here goes
DoD's‘Ghost Planes’ ship people for torture, post, mortem photo-person boiled to death
DOD's "ghost planes"= the subject
SHIP PEOPLE FOR TORTURE= the action
post mortem photo = the proof
PERSON BOILED TO DEATH = the fact being described
ITS ABSOLUTE HORSE CRAP!!
SHE THEN ASKED ME TO PROVE US DIDN'T BOIL SOMEONE!!! HOW SILLY IS THAT!!!!!
QUOTE(onlyinNY @ Jan 20 2005, 10:48 AM)
She then goes onto link stories of torture, and refuses to provide one proven incident that the US ever boiled anyone!!!!
ITS CRAP!!! It is liberal LIMBAUGHISM
ITS CRAP!!! It is liberal LIMBAUGHISM
Haven't you noticed that you're now reduced to replying to yourself.
This is my last reply because you are unable to debate an issue without putting your own imagined spin on their words. You have done the same in other threads. You accuse people of saying what they did not say because of imagined implications. That is your problem.
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