how do you explain how people who do not subscribe to religion........ manage to find meaning in their lives ?

How does this relate to the concept of freedom of religion or freedom from religion?

What a chilling image, Bill.



I don't see it as oversimplifying human nautre. I see it as that our neuroscience is still too primitive to really explain much of the "experience" we have as humans. I do believe the neural systems we use to experience reality have evolved - just like our lungs evolved from gill slits, etc.

You're right that there is so much more to us humans than just surviving alone. Many animals, in fact, play, seemingly just for fun. Dolphins, my dog, etc. But the fact is that an animal who plays, in lieu of survival, doesn't live to pass on his/her genes. Only those animals who can survive long enough to procreate will have their genes recorded in our history. And I figure groups of animals can also come together to form "organisms" that either are capable of promoting procreation or not.

What I was trying to point out is that, for some reason, those humans who had DNA mutations leading to neuronal structures that fire with "religious instinct" lived longer and/or procreated more effectively than those who did not.

Perhaps a system that allowed for some leisure time promoted the survival of the individual, too. Perhaps religion developed in people as a way to allow for a reduction of stress hormone levels, thus leading to an improved position on the learning/performance stress hormone curve. Those that were optimally stressed out lived longer.

I suspect there are many other reasons evolution coded human beings for religious instinct. And yes, ultimately, I think the bottom line is survival. Life (procreation) and death are the binary code of evolution.

You are so right that people want to feel like they they have purpose and meaning in their life, that they are contributing to making the universe a better place to be. My view is that these "instincts" also provide some advantage to those who have them. People who work to make their world better are perceived as being cooperative, may be seen as more attractive by others of the tribe, may attract a higher quality mate, may impregnate more females, may have more assistance from the tribe in keeping their young alive, etc., etc.

It all comes back to one thing:

The human ability to assign meaning and purpose where there once was none.

And there you have it, the simultaneous birth of civilization and religion.

Science came later when we decided to document findings, using MEDIA TECHNOLOGY, with no specific purpose other than to record them for future generations to draw their own conclusions from.

BTW, Bill - cool avatar. Who is that dude, anyway?

I guess, when you put it that way, it is all about survival. But is it survival of the individual or survival of the whole, the species?

I think the individualistic survival threatens the species more than the reverse.

Dr. Evil?

Morpheus from The Matrix Trilogy.

Oh yeah! Cool movie, but weird! Apprapo (correct spelling?) tho!

I don't see it quite that way....I do see a search for purpose and meaning ...but I see religion as only one aspect of that search.

If you think religion is so one-dimensional, which one aspect would that be?

TRoU,
One theory might be that zealotry itself provides a survival benefit. Individuals belonging to a group that supports divisive dogma may have consistently survived better than those who do not belong to that group. Individuals within the group who actually believe the dogma may do better within that group.

Another interesting question is why have we developed the ability to doubt the existence of God? There are a lot of examples from history where this was not conducive to promoting the survival of the individual. So why so many of us who do doubt?

Could it be that many people who doubt, "sense" that what has been passed off as "God" in organized religion, is anything BUT God?

Can we see your art or read your writings on the web?

Spirit is a good word. It defies definition, yet it is something we can explore and experience like art or like a walk in nature.

Good question for another thread.

She didn't say it was one-dimensional - she said: "I do see a search for purpose and meaning ...but I see religion as only one aspect of that search."

I think a lot of religious people miss the point she just made.

I think the "Source of Spirit" (God) is much bigger than "religion" and has "plans" that will take humanity beyond everything we now know as religion and science.

No I couldn't win anything because it's already been proved.

There are multiple lines of conclusive evidence.

1) Line one: There's enough of a fossil record to reach that conclusion, see these links:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...21_hominid.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/
http://www.modernhumanorigins.com/
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761566..._Evolution.html
http://www.msu.edu/~heslipst/contents/ANP440/index.htm
http://www.handprint.com/LS/ANC/evol.html
http://www.handprint.com/LS/ANC/brain.html
http://anthro.palomar.edu/homo/homo_1.htm

2) Line two: The genetic evidence: Comparative genomics:

http://search.looksmart.com/p/browse/us1/u...87055/us887148/
Above link has more links to Genetic Evidence focusing on the human genome and its role in human evolution.

Scientists have even re-constructed part of the genetic code that would have existed in a common ancestor of placental mammals, including humans.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4056559.stm
Ancestor's DNA code reconstructed

The researchers used computer analysis to compare and contrast modern mammal genomes and then modelled a sequence that would have been common to all.

We're even going beyond comparative genomics:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/...30228072746.htm



He could be... but what evidence do you have? Do you know for sure God uses magnetic fields -- or are you just saying he uses something like magnetic fields? You don't even have a theory -- all you've got is a vague possibility of some unknown entity using some unspecified force to do something for some unspecified reason. The evidence against that vague and unspecified possibility is the meandering history of life on this planet. It is a cruel history, full of violence, predation, suffering and the slow emergence of differences. If God could have evolved us faster -- why didn't he?



Maybe one of us isn't smart enough and this discussion is pointless?



And you have better science?



You're wrong. The insights from evolution have contributed to drug discovery, understanding genetics, medicine, computer science and artificial intelligence.

You are right!

Faith has previously been defined on this thread as "confidence". Consider a faith that goes beyond simple trust to include intuitive "knowing" that "senses" a connection with God? That kind of faith would then "warn" the believer when something is not right in the dogma or with the person(s) in authority within the organization.

Please also consider that "organized" religion is "organized people". The problems of any organization are similar.

I understood the meaning. It implys that religon is only one aspect of the serach, which means one dimension (one axis) of the search. If it is only one axis, I would like to know what she thinks it is.

QUOTE;
He could be... but what evidence do you have? Do you know for sure God uses magnetic fields -- or are you just saying he uses something like magnetic fields? You don't even have a theory -- all you've got is a vague possibility of some unknown entity using some unspecified force to do something for some unspecified reason. The evidence against that vague and unspecified possibility is the meandering history of life on this planet. It is a cruel history, full of violence, predation, suffering and the slow emergence of differences. If God could have evolved us faster -- why didn't he?
UNQUOTE

Well, one possibility is the principle behind the "tachyon"! This postulated an etheric underlayment of Physical Spacetime! The calculations worked out for a negative mass (see Bosonic String Theory) so it was abandoned!

But I wonder! String theory was abandoned before Quantum Mechanics ran into the Planck Scale "quantum foam" problem!

That's partly true (though there are things called ‘Vestigial’ Organs that no longer serve a purpose). But keep in mind that adaptions are made to fit the environment and our environment is changing because of our technology.



There are a lot of possible reasons and I already gave you some... it helped unite societies (policeman in the head, sacrifice your life for the group, setting up authorities who call the shots) and those societies competed with each other through war and conquest, struggling to get larger and more powerful. It isolated arbitrary groups of humans into cultures that fought and through fighting forced evolution through competition -- but now our weapons are too powerful.



To make you think about what "understanding" means.



That's a bit of a non-sequitor and an insult.

Are you saying that people who don't understand like you have no compasion?

And what about the compasion of animals -- do dogs and cats have your understanding?

thanks Freedom....... I think you explained that quite well

obviously I am not assigning dimensions to anything !!

QUOTE;
That's a bit of a non-sequitor and an insult.

Are you saying that people who don't understand like you have no compasion?

And what about the compasion of animals -- do dogs and cats have your understanding?
UNQUOTE

YOU are complaining about insults?

I detect a "Freudian Slip". You misspelled Compassion!

I think we're going to need someone very skilled at mediating disputes and motivating people to facilitate the conversation between science and religion before we're ever going to see your vision of religion and science teaming up to defeate corporations and government, Bill.

Maybe the first thing to do would be try to spread the "both are correct, but neither is sufficient" meme.

Otherwise the conversation's just repeatedly going to turn into a pissing contest.

The other thing I see missing from putting media science into practice is that most scientists and religious types don't have the executive's perspective - which is "how do I get all these bright, but egotistical and sometimes antagonistic, people to work together as a syncytium, for the benefit of the whole?" The executive has the precious organizational skills that many of us in science and philosophy lack, at least in comparison to the executive.

And most of the executives are found over in government and the corporations. That's why they control everything too, it seems. They figure out A needs to do task A, B is best suited for task B, etc. Right now the executives are prisoners of the "artificial intelligence" of the monetary system. I learned that from you.

Seems to me getting religion and science to collaborate is indeed like herding a bunch of cats. Absent minded professors just aren't the best executives, Bill.

The way I see it we need the economists to look this problem over and figure out how to free the executives from the artificial intelligence of the monetary system.

I personally, don't think that there is a need for conflict between the two...
but in the real world there needs to be some work done.......there is no ultimate ultimate that we know of.... so can.we just be the best people we can be?

Hey, don't look at me HE started it! I'm telling momma on you!

According to your faith.

Great metaphor, huh

Theories are for science, silly goose.

Faith is the "way" of religion and/or spirituality. Your ignorance of human spirituality is obvious.

Spiritual Faith, is a force of the spirit, it is evidence of the existence of Spirit. You confuse faith with religious doctrine.

The need for "Evidence" belongs in the fields of science and law, etc. But not in the same way with spiritual exploration.

So is childbirth.

Who said God could "evolve" us faster? And why do you insist on calling God "he"? Get that Zeus image out of your head!

Yup, maybe

Why does everything have to be about science? Get out of the city and go for a walk.

"Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul alike." – John Muir, The Yosemite (1912).

Yeah, yeah, yeah - take all the credit why don't ya!

Thanks DWB04, can I see your art and writing now?

well, everything I've done unfortunately is in a storage facility in Hawaii.....
I used to live on the Big Island......and I don't have a web page with anything on it.
I've done some watercolor and printmaking.....my writing consists of short stories .....but I think I'd also like to do some essays.....if I can ever get off this board!!!

Speaking of leaving! I gotta go get ready for my dinner date! See ya!

have a good one!

You may be onto something.

I wonder if physics isn't up against itself, similar to when the "flat earth theory" dominated. It took a long time for people to embrace the idea of a round earth - the concept was counter-intuitive, requiring a concept of gravity, which did not come until almost two centuries after Columbus and the early explorers sailed around the world.

Today, scientists resist the idea of infinite mass and infinite energy. It makes no sense within our current scientific framework (belief system). But, if infinities are "real", things will be very different from what we believe today.

Such ideas can be "explored" spiritually and philosophically.

Ponder these ideas, like a young Christopher Columbus... musing the shape of the earth.

let's hope that they can break the gridlock......sometimes when you're up against a wall there can be a breakthrough......

Oh yeah, I'm always on the lookout for the next EX-Mrs. TheRestofUs! <_<

I "hope" we witness a breakthrough in our lifetime.

The "end of days" fundamentalists... sometimes I think maybe, like animals that sense an earthquake, they sense an end... but perhaps the end they sense is the end of the "world view" that dominates the times we live in.

Maybe the "designer" will become more "self-evident" in a way that science and religion can understand and find a new language to describe.

Another metaphor I like is that which compares humanity's destiny with the caterpillar-to-butterfly metamorphosis. I don't think it needs to be a physical transformation. It could be a spiritual "evolution", activating latent trans-dimensional faculties.

I know the feeling "if I ever get off of this board." This board is a very exciting place to be. Sooo much mental stimulation. So many smart people. Hell, I've got a stack of books here on my desk to read just to keep up with the conversation. And a splitting headache to boot.

I'd love to read your work, see your art, too, DWB04.

that could happen....my husband and I may be going to Hawaii in a few weeks to move our things here to CA.....everything we possess will then take a sea voyage
kind of an adventure don't you think?

I was so stirred up after the election.....that I felt there were some important things to talk about with reference to our world and everytime you turn around there is something even more odious that this administration commits! I guess that's why it's hard to leave.....and then there is that separation anxiety....I enjoy talking with you and others.

You know I really like this metaphor, Freedom4all. That's exactly what I "sensed" but didn't have any words to go with it. You know, we're continually talking about "sensing" things here and I know there is merit to not only the things we "sense" but also the "sensing" itself.

"Sensing" ("intuition/feeling") is not validated by either the scientific or the religious communities. But yet we all have it and use it ceaselessly. I know I risk being ridiculed for bringing this up but I'm struggling to find words for this experience and I figure you all can help me find not only words, but references, perhaps an entire bibliography! There are so many smart people on this CGCS forum. It really blows my mind.

What is this "sensing" we do? What's the scientific basis behind "intuition." There has to be one. Even if we don't know what it is, yet.

Here's the thing - science is a tool to explain and understand reality. We don't bend reality to conform to science. We expand science to better understand reality.

Ditto that! I enjoy talking with you and others, too. I've gone away from the forum before to do other things and then come back a few weeks later. Once I start back to work, sometime in May, I won't have nearly as much time, but I know I'll still want to be involved with this forum. FFA's metamorphosis metaphor really resonates with me - almost as though humanity is currently going through a metamorphosis - I can feel it. Either that or I'm having a psychic seizure in my temoral lobe...

And I don't want to miss it. This is the greatest entertainment event in history, IMHO.

And talking, especially with you guys, makes my brain hurt from thinking so much! It's awesome.

I wonder what will be said 200 years from now about the DU, CGCS, MoveOn, the Free Republic, etc.? I wonder if forums like these are occurring all over the world and what form they take in foreign lands.

those could probably be gone......but if they did still exist, I suppose that people would have to look at us in the same way that we look at past generations.....that we were subject to the context of our own time......and maybe that we had some forward leaning thoughts.

Yes, I suspect so. That what we now see as cutting edge will look very primitive and simplistic to them. I wonder if they will look back and say we were catepillars metamorphosizing into butterflies. It seems to me as though we are in a major "paradigm" shift right now as a society. I think 10 years from now there will be tons of Americans will be on these forums. I wonder what the effect will be then?

let's hope so.....all our lives depend on it.....and so does our planet

Good point - environmental changes are outpacing our ability to adapt.



I would argue executive is at the top. Policeman is under executive and does executive's bidding unless some other executive comes over and buys policeman off.



Sacrificing life for group won't be beneficial from a survival standpoint. I read somewhere yesterday that that's why we don't have too many Ghandis, JFK/RFK's, MLK's out there. Those willing to sacrifice their lives for the group often end up dead. I realize all these men did have children, but over the millenia my guess is the self-sacrificers were burned at the stake of history and their genetic contributions burned with them.



True.



This is another good point. I don't know how it fits into the picture. And I wonder if anything can be done about this way we are organized into societies. It seems to me the economists and sociologists need to put their input in here. I don't know how people fit together into societies, how societies evolve, how the economy works, how to jolt the economy out of it's "artificially intelligent" goal of feeding corporate profit at the expense of the individuals who serve it.



And our resources too few.

I wonder how evolution and capitalism are alike/different?



It sounded to me like you asked me this to indicate I didn't have understanding.

It seems your are describing a world model is one where overwhelmingly powerful forces (God, the police, the society) maliciously dominate +/- destroy the little guy. I can understand why you would see it this way, a lot of times it's true, too. But it's not always this way. Some powerful people are benevolent and compassionate.

Sometimes I think knowledge and understanding are just the work horses of the human spirit. They're the "legs" we need to walk. But trust, belief, imagination, what Keats referred to as "negative capability" are the wings we need to fly.



I was neither implying nor privately thinking, that you are incapable of compassion. That's not my impression of you at all. I was trying to point you towards your compassionate "frames." Because I figure if you move in that direction your message will reverberate farther.

I regard science like I regard religious scripture. If I find it useful, I embrace it, else - to the back burner.

Here is another metaphor, one that compares or ability to spiritually sense things with our natural sense of balance - our ability to walk upright.

We have a natural sense of "spiritual balance". A lot of people are still "spiritually" walking around on all 4's, but some people have learned to "stand up straight... spiritually". This, of course is metaphor.

I deliberately avoid the known occult terminology, because that invokes pre-conceptions, and stereotypes of Hollywood psychics, etc. That stuff doesn't interest me.

So, this "spiritual balance", can you feel it? It is essentially what I would call faith.
Not a doctrine, not a blind trust, but a sense of spiritual balance - presence. Nothing spooky, just a natural realization that we are more... If we could remember the first time we stood on our two legs without falling... what did it feel like?

In our “spiritual balance” we can sense that we are not alone… we can sense the one we may call God - Spirit - Oneness - all encompassing goodness....

Yes, I can feel this "spiritual balance" though not always. Probably not even the majority of the time. But I know what it feels like.

Yes, let's hope...

So - If there is a collective unconscious, as Carl Jung speculated. What of a collective "super conscious" - a oneness above the intellect. Where recognition/participation in requires a greater sensitivity than our "primitive" state of "evolution" has given us....

Yet, what if we still tap this "shared mind". And if the emerging science/art of Psychosomatic medicine "proves" real. We would have to acknowledge that our mental activity, our thoughts and emotions are influencing our physical human civilization.

The war against terrorism. The struggle between political world views... these are shared "perceptions"...

A paradigm shift in understanding mental health - enhanced mental health like enhanced physical health for athletes - could change the world in one generation.

I suppose you could say "faith" is part of it -- but there's more to it. There's actual physical evidence... like genes and fossils. How else are you going to interpret that evidence? I don't think you can interpret that evidence, you have to ignore it.

There's more going on here than blind faith. When you've got that much fossil evidence and gentic evidence you've got enough evidence to call it proof.



Theories, meaning possible explanations that can be tested, are for all rational minds.

Do you believe in testing your beliefs?



It's also the way of sucide bombers and terrorists who fly planes into our skyscrapers.



Is it? And you're happy with a vague possibility of some unknown entity using some unspecified force to do something for some unspecified reason without any evidence of anything?



A force? Physics knows lots of forces, there is gravity and you can measure that force -- you might have a device for it in your bathroom, it's called "a scale." Can you measure the force of spirituaity with some device?

It may be no more than evidence of human psychology. Of denial in the face of evidence, of refusing to look at the evidence and think about it. Of needing to believe in things that make you feel good, feel important, and ease your fear of death.

Are spirituality and psychology the same? Or is spirituality bogus psychology?



And what do you have faith in that makes you reject evolutionary explanations unless it's some religious doctrine?



The need for evidence belongs to rational thought. Is your thought not rational?



It's implied in the Christian concepts of God that say he/she/it/whatever is all powerful and all knowing. If a god is all powerful and all knowing it stands to reason everything that happens is that god's choice. Do you reject those "omni-" concepts? Do you believe in a God of limited power and/or limited knowledge?



Not everything is about science -- but this thread is.



Check it out for yourself if you don't believe me. My claims are not empty, they can be verified -- can yours? Genetic algorithms and evolutionary programming are part of artificial intelligence. Drug designers use evolutionary algorithms too. We look for genetic diseases in the human genome and assume they are inherited. ... Darwin's insight into natural selection and evolution deserves the credit.

It is not difficult to demonstrate that people know more than they know that they know. You have esperienced yourself in the past do thing that you didn't know you could do. The self-in-situation adaptation process is a natural organic process
that is part of nature and the whole is always larger than a part of the process
which we call self monitoring. When the self-in-situation processes of perceiving,
conceptualizing, feeling, intending and acting are most fully integrated where the person's contact with both internal and external environment is optimized, such
peak experiencing is often thought of as spiritual. We are most spiritual when we
are able to be most natural. I believe that it is this recognition of human experiencing that allows for the common identification among human beings and
the mutual valuing of the human experience that supports individual freedom,
equality and community. I believe that when a person is able to love all parts of one's self sufficiently to test all parts of one's theory of one's self and world the
the personing process is the same as science, intelligence, nature and evolution.

Maybe you're right.

It's still worth a try.

I think what empowers these executives to organize so efficiently, is the same A.I. money god they serve. Both scientists and priests have better vision for where the human species should be, but lack the support and the complete system to take us their. I don't know the answer to that problem, but I know it can be found in the study of media. Media is the ultimate mediator.