Are you aware of the decidedly Nazi-like tactics being employed by supposedly grass roots common ordinary every day neocons on internet message boards? The goal is to stifle dissent and disrupt any kind of discourse between anti-Bushies and these thugs are so far right that they include even moderate conservatives in their definition of anti-Bush so they stay pretty busy. Tactics range from simple verbal abuse in language that would make a gutter pimp blush to accusations of communism, disloyalty and hating America and of course, that old standby, If You Don't Like The Way We're Running Things Then Leave.

In other words, it's pure venomous hate and these guys claim to be representing the majority of the Republican party, the conservative movement AND the Bush administration. And really, when you stop to think about it they DO sound just like Hannity and Limbaugh released from the constraints of FCC regulations.

The parallels with Nazi Germany in the 1930s are downright horrifying. The only difference right now is they aren't dressing up in cute little uniforms and actually going out and physically beating up people (not too many steps in the future, I'm afraid), and that's only because the job is easier these days.

Since the internet is the major medium now for grassroots level communications, these bastards can intimidate anyone they see as a foe and anonymously and effectively throttle debate on any subject that doesn't fit within their agenda with filthy mouthed abusive tirades and simple thread spamming.

There are too many of them on too many boards for this not to be an organized effort and I have got to believe that there is nothing coincidental about these parallels with Nazi methods either since Karl Goebbels.... oops, Rove, who obviously has studied his family's old boss and his methods well, is Bushie's number one Dr. Strangelove.

Can you collect a few examples?

It would be good to see exactly what you are talking about.

I understand what they are stating. I can see why they are feeling angry and frustrated about it now. For example, go to any yahoo news article. When you scroll to the bottom you will see a place to post messages related to the article you are reading. The entire boards are filled with abuse, and the majority I have read was Neocons being horrid. That isn't to say both sides are not guilty, but the majority I have read is attacks by Neocons.

I have been called everything in the book, intimidated and even threatened. I have reported it, but their reply was my choice to put people on ignore and the abuse was allowed to continue even though it went against their own policies.

I read one about animal abuse, and neocons directed it instead toward us, "Nazi liberals." That is the nicest thing that was said about us.

This is about Elizabeth Edwards having breast cancer. This is also one of the milder posts from a "moral" party member.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...sa_edwards_dc_4


"Son died; now fat wife has cancer!
by: lindastepsonyournuts 11/04/04 09:33 pm
Msg: 271 of 322
3 recommendations

John Edwards is being punished for ripping off so many good people in the court room! I LOVE IT! Sweet revenge! "




[quote=DefeatBush,Nov 8 2004, 12:53 PM]
Can you collect a few examples?

I wouldn't delete your vent. It helped me because I have been feeling the same way. I just didn't post it. Your rage is understandable, and your post stating you should have calmed down first is commendable. You are human just like the rest of us. Don't be so hard on yourself.

You misunderstand Tom. I can understand you being upset. I think it's safe to say that we've all been there. Sometimes you just need to take a step back and remember that people are greater jerks on the internet than they are in real life. They don't have to worry about getting beat up on the internet.

Try not to take it personally no matter what they say. Thier choice to be asses doesn't have to increase your stress in life.

The Elizabeth Edwards comment is lower than low. Moral? I don't think so. :ph34r: :ph34r:

These are a sampling from a group of threads on a single board, a board that had been designated as a DEMOCRAT DISCUSSION FORUM. Not all were directed at me in particular although some are. This was not just a personal war. I was jumped on for defending someone else's right to speak and it went downhill after that.

(Oh the misspellings and weird sentence formations are to bypass the auto controls against filthy and abusive language on that particular board.)
===============================================
This was in response to a post that said capitalism was just as subject to abuse as any other system:

Re: Before you vote you must make your vote count.
No score for this post November 4 2004, 9:31 PM

I don't waste my time arguing with commies. You're too fukking stupid.
I mean it. I can interlocute with the best when there is some chance of meaningful discourse, but people who think like you are mentally deficient.
You suffer from a neurosis which makes spout endless, brainless bullshiit, and I might as well argue with a fence post.
Blow it out you your as s.
You're either too stupid or lazy to hold a meaningfull job, so you project you balless failure onto the society you live in.
Eat shiit and die.
========================
Fuk Yerself
No score for this post November 5 2004, 7:19 AM
Now think about what you're saying: You are acusing me of a being afraid of you, yet if you went around saying in public what you posted here, someone like me would whip your little ass at least once a day.
So you sneak around on the web and say it where it's safe.
Eat shiit and die.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
==========================
No, Really, Eat Sh i t And Die
No score for this post November 5 2004, 9:14 PM

Why on earth would I want to debate you, commie trash?
I also don't debate child molestors, or white supremecists, or any number of idiotic a s s holes.
Not because I lack the skill or conviction, but because your worldview is so perverted as to preclude any form of rational debate.
Now I could resort to pulling up facts, such as the fact that a new report by the World Economic Forum shows that the socialist countries of the EU chronically lag behind the US in economic peformance, and that the former Soviet Bloc countries who are abandoning communism show the fastest growth rates in the EU.
But you would simply retreat into the paranoid delusions Marx laid out in his little red book, and you would throw out some lame, conspiratorial garbage to account for these facts, rather than face the painful truth.
There are three kinds of people who embrace communism today:
Lazy, covetous bastards, who would rather everyone be poor than some be rich.
Young, stupid idealists who have little or no real-world experience.
And control-freaks, who have a sick, compuslive need to be part of a system which regulates everything from clothing to bowel movements.
I have no desire to debate any of the three.
Commies are as obsolete as eight-track tapes, and even less relevant.
I remember when children had to learn to hide under their desks because of fuk faces like you.
Thank god, today you are just a walking joke.
Which is why I say, eat sh i t and die, a s s hole.
===================================================
This is my favorite:

Court Jesters
No score for this post November 6 2004, 8:06 PM

I love it!
The Soviets weren't REALLY commie!!!
You're even more stupid than I thought; Well then, guess what?
America isn't really capitalist!
See how well your dumbass methodology works?
Now explain why the EU can't compete with America, Mr. Commie as s hole?
Then, eat shi t and die, fuk face.
You monkey fukkers are just pissed cause you lost your balls in the last election. That, or you don't even have a horse in the race.
We run the show, turdeaters. We're your boss. Don't ya just love it?
Sweep our streets, you socialist/commie shi theels! Or better yet, take your balless carcasses somewhere else. We're moving to the right, in case you're too stupid to notice.
Now eat that shi t and die, dick shiners!
======================================
This goes on on a heck of a lot of forums, albeit usually with milder language. You folks really need to get out and about more and see what's becoming the norm before you start ignoring the actions and jamming on the reactions.

The quotes above are extreme in their language but that's he only difference between them and what is more and more the answer you get when you question anything being done in and by this administration. This is why we're once again becoming "Ugly" Americans around the world people. This "We're in charge and <bleep> you attitude.

Edited for typos. I basically type one handed due to a stroke and have to do that a lot.

On the other hand, the concerns Tom.B expressed in his original post seem born out by his subsequent observations given they occurred on several different forums. The behavior is outrageous, as his most recent post clearly indicates. And doing nothing about it simply allows others to be intimidated into silence just as Tom fears. Perhaps Inanna could give some moral support in this direction rather than reproaching Tom for well grounded concerns and advising him, apparently, to chill out and take no action.



Maybe that's not meant as advising inaction. I hope it isn't. Tom is not only right to be concerned and upset about this, he should take action against these people and not allow them to win the day and close off discussion. Tom, by all means, oppose these people. From the appearance of things, however, I would caution against expecting reason to win them over. Expecting that would indeed increase your stress level unduly. But you can use other ways of dealing with them while at the same time delivering a message of reason to the other, more reasonable participants. The comments you list are ignorant and stupid. Feel free to let them know it. I applaud your efforts, Tom. Remember, that if their tactics bring silence from the opposition, they have won.

When you have someone like Arnold and other neocons using verbal abuse directed toward Democrats, is it any wonder their "followers" act the same way as their role models?

Verbal abuse is a form of harassment. It shouldn't be tolerated especially from someone supposedly representing the "people" they were elected (or stole the elections from) to serve.

Well, he's venting about internet forums. People go off all over them because they don't have to worry about retaliation. In the real world someone would physically beat them and frankly... they'd deserve it.

I can understand him wanting to vent, especially on this kind of media. But, using the same degenerative language they used doesn't show one to be of any better nature... does it. What it shows is that one is a hypocrite. And I'm not saying Tom is, hence the reason I pointed out his choice of words.



I never advised inaction. I advised not letting them get under his skin. If you let your enemy anger you... then your enemy has already won. Always fight the good fight, but make sure you are fighting to GOOD fight and not turning into that which you despise.

Don't worry Tom we understand, and you are safe here.

Look at the way they attacked Kerry, how dirty and underhanded, all the lies, would Bushs' loyal followers do less?

I agree. I just learned how to add people to my block list.

I think Tom just needed to vent, give him a break Inanna.

We have all felt that kind of upset at the lies and venom spewed.

I'm glad to hear you're not advising inaction. But it wasn't clear from your original focus, was it? Perhaps next time you deliver what is essentially a reproach to someone who is clearly well-intentioned, you should make your positive position clearer, if what you want is to improve effectiveness and be helpful.

At no point was I trying to get on Toms case nor harrass him.

As I said, I felt the same way at times. Lies and venom and been spewed from both sides of the fence. But, letting it anger you isn't going to help. Anger is a hollow emotion and does not serve one in the long run. There are far better tools with which to fight one's battles.

Really folks. Inanna had a valid point. I posted under conditions of extreme anger and in doing so I was reacting instead of taking any kind of positive action. I will say that the discussion I seem to have unwittingly prompted is exactly what is being disrupted on forums such as those I cited and all of you, even the ones that don't agree with my assessment of the situation, are a breath of fresh air.

I appreciate the good advice from all of you and I've taken my deep breaths and got myself collected now. Thanks.

That being said: (Uh oh, here he goes again)

One of the questions that still runs around the rim of my mind though: Is there a directed and concentrated effort to suppress dissension here? Either 1) the same few people are patrolling the forums and blathering this tripe, 2) there are a lot more of the type I called thugs in our poulation than I thought or 3) there's a group that's been created just for this purpose.

This would certainly be a lot easier to arrange and accomplish than a lot of other political tricks we've seen over the years.

Conspiricy theories run rampant, yeah, I know.

I believe that the only way to get this out of our system is by proving that we are right were fraud and deception was committed on Nov 2. We need to get Americans to state in paper whom they voted for. This is very important, if e-voting is proven to be wrong, we will get vindication. We need to do this by bringing credibility to our election system. Please, get the effort out to validate the votes, this is the only way to really unite our country, regardless of who you as individuals voted for. We need to do this, because if there is any opposition from the Administration to stop efforts, then we know we have proven our point.

Validating the votes isn't going to unite the country. If anything, it's going to divide it further. At this point, Kerry stepped down. He refused trhe application for the job. He is no longer an applicant. At this point we ALL need to make sure our hired representatives are doing the job. The election process doesn't end when you vote. It keeps going by writting your reps everytime something comes up and making sure they are doing a good job. It's also being accepting of those around you and fighting for thier freedoms... especially of those you oppose on the other side of the political fence. Otherwise this country is going to further divide and nothing will ever get accomplished... except maybe a civil war.

You're welcome.



I'm sure there probably is always going to be some effort by small groups... like protest warrior. Does it go deeper than that... probably not. Frankly, I say let them say thier piece. You might learn something while siffting though the trash they spew. Just don't let them get you angry because once you do... they win. One of the keys to winning a battle is keeping your cool.

I believe the point was convincingly made in another thread that you are wrong that a candidate's concession makes any difference legally to the outcome of the election. And yet for some reason you continue to try to push it.

target='_blank'>


http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...indpost&p=14585

Zunilda Figueroa's point still remains.

Nope, this one's over folks. I would like to see the investigations into computer voting glitches continued though, not because I want to challenge the outcome of this election but to establish the level of validity of the whole system. Apparently it was open to the possibility of fraud on a massive scale, even if that fraud never took place. And I'll reserve my personal opinion on that one for now.

I'll continue to follow those investigations but even if we found that the Republicans were guilty of massive fraud, Mr. Kerry has already validated the election and you don't undo a validated election without destroying the whole country. There are already too many people who appear to be headed down that road.

The best you could hope for would be an impeachment, which wouldn't come off and if it did, as much as Dubya was my reason for leaving the GOP, Cheney would be even worse in my opinion. Call me hateful or whatever, but Dick Cheney really frightens me.

And your legal support for this claim is what?

I understand what you're saying here, but it is still important to get to the bottom of this situation. It probably won't change our situation now. We will probably still have to live with Bush/Cheney for the next 4 years. But, if it comes out that there was fraud involved, alot of the people that voted for these guys because of their 'values' are going to question their methods and it seems like that would be a good thing. I know alot of people will not change their minds no matter what these guys do. But, if just 25% of their supporters were troubled by their deceit, that would make a huge difference in the next election.

IMO, even though we know a percentage of their base is fanatical I feel like there are even more that voted for them thinking it was the right thing to do based on the information they've received from their local media. Most people get their info from their local TV news and we all know how biased and unreliable they have become.

I was able to persuade 2 of my friends to vote for Kerry instead of Bush. They both said they didn't really like Bush but they didn't know anything about Kerry. After I emailed them some articles about both candidates, they changed their minds. So I really do think most people will make the right decision if they have the facts. It's just that most people don't go to the trouble of finding accurate information. They just believe what they hear on the 10 o'clock news.

Also, we need to know because it's the only way we will see a change in our electoral process. If we do nothing it will all go down the same way next time.

We have to let our government know that we will not stand by and allow or votes to be stolen. When we allow that to happen we give them permission to take away our basic rights.

Nothing whatsoever. It's an opinion. My personal opinion. I have no idea what you would consider "legal" support but had I had any and had I been trying to sway or convince someone else, I would have posted it.

In fact I'm not sure which claim/opinion you refer to. That the election couldn't be overturned at this point without massive fallout or that I'm frightened by Dick Cheney.

I was speaking to the section of your post which I put in bold print. In fact, I see you edited your post from the original and added a phrase. The original seemed to claim that somehow Kerry's concession gave validation to a Bush win. In legal terms, it does not, and is immaterial to the official results. The question of whether there would be massive fallout is another matter. Of course, you may believe that there would be and that should rule against an investigation into the election results. The troubling aspect of such a view is that it seems to grant that even given massive election fraud that gave the election away, one should refuse to uncover it. And if fallout is a consideration, what, indeed, might be the fallout from adopting such a general policy as that?

Well Joeby, your question did get me to thinking. This is quite a place when it can get a dumb old Oklahoma cowboy like me to actually think twice in one day. I may have to take a week off and recover now Anyway, I went out and did me some research.

No a concession speech is not legally binding , but again my statement had no basis in or reference to what is "legal" or what isn't.

I'm not sure what your own stance is as to whether we ought to challenge the election results or not. I haven't been here long enough to get a handle on what's gone before. But I can, once again, give you my own, very humble personal opinion on it for what it's worth.

I believe that to raise a hue and cry and/or demand that the election be set aside on the basis of information that is coming to light slowly even as we type here will result in nothing but a long drawn out legal battle that if not won, will make life in this country even more miserable for the 49% of us who showed some common sense in a year in which common sense became a liability. We all know it would go to the Supreme Court and we know what that same Supreme Court said four years ago when the same complaints and challenges were made.

I believe Mr. Kerry probably did the right thing in the realization that he wasn't going to get anything accomplished with the deck stacked against him as it certainly was. It goes against my grain to give up without a fight but a fight you can't win just saps your strength, strength you're gonna need for the next fight and the one after that.

Our problem is that we haven't learned to play the game and we keep showing up at the fights with slingshots while the other guys are toting shotguns.

I sincerely apologize for changing the post on you. I've had a stroke which has severely slowed down my left hand and since I'm a two fingered hunt and peck typist I make a lot of weird typos. I miss things in the preview and when I see them in the actual post, they're embarrassing. So I re-edit to get rid of them. Some times I think of something I wish I had said and if it's only been a few minutes or so, I go ahead and add it.

It's not being done for any devious purpose. If you'll check your quote of my original post you'll see the word reserve appearing as asomething like ewersw or something like that. That's what I went in to fix and I siimply added an afterthought. Had no idea you'd be on it so quickly. Again, my apologies.

Every forum has a few bad apples - those who really aren't interested in anything but destruction - whatever the issue. This is the same mentality as those who devise and send viruses around - it's fun for them and the fun is enhanced when they get a response. It spurs them on. I choose to ignore them. Eventually, they'll go away. They have no friends, they have no life. Pity them and move on. These are the folks we back away from in our "real" lives. No response is no satisfaction. I read some of the posts regarding Elizabeth Edwards cancer diagnosis. Post an encouraging and supportive message - she knows what's up - she'll appreciate kindness and toss the trash away.

I have a feeling this whole thing is stemming from the fact that I'm not very articulate here.

No no no. I want it uncovered. I want it shouted from the mountaintops. I want the crooks exposed just as badly as you do. But next time around I want all the ducks in a row and the garbage prevented from happening beforehand because it's been exposed as garbage.

I want the loopholes closed and I want any criminal acts prosecuted. I just don't want to see so much energy expended in butting our heads against the Supreme Court that we let them do it again the next time.

The idea that we can win just by exposing a few crooks and/or crooked acts on the other side has just been proven a fallacy once again. That's just one duck. Lets not put all our energy into those same mistakes again.

First I'll address the following section.



I'm not sure what you're envisaging as a hue and cry or a demand that the election be set aside. Moving for investigations into e-voting results to proceed quickly seems to be appropriate given the anomalies that many have pointed out. Presumably, if they were moved forward, they would offer more information than is only "coming to light slowly even as we type here."

Second, as to this section:



If it did go to the Supreme Court, the issues would be different. It might well be a matter of clear fact--evidence of massive manipulation of e-votes. Also, there would be increased scrutiny on the Court, given their decision 4 years ago.

Third, as to this section:



Kerry's decision to concede came before the significant revelations of e-voting anomalies. In his concession statement he mentioned Ohio and the consideration that the ballots as then outstanding could not mathematically have put him ahead there. There was no mention of possible massive e-voting fraud and manipulation.

About this:



(My emphasis in the above) I'm not sure what you mean by this or what you're basing this on. Of course if you already prejudge the issue of a Supreme Court decision that would fly in the face of overwhelming empirical evidence of e-voting fraud, that would guarantee a loss here. But that's quite an assumption.

As for this:



I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. There's enough energy for both--not to mention backing by moral principle.

As I said in another forum post, DO NOT FEED the creeps and freepers who pop in to the forum to disrupt dialogue. The fastest, funnest and most effective means of silencing them is simply to put them ON IGNORE. Click on their screen name, go to "ignore user" in the profile option box, and send them to oblivion, UNLESS you REALLY have nothing better to do than play their game.

[quote=Sparkle,Nov 8 2004, 01:12 PM]
This is about Elizabeth Edwards having breast cancer. This is also one of the milder posts from a "moral" party member.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...sa_edwards_dc_4
"Son died; now fat wife has cancer!
by: lindastepsonyournuts 11/04/04 09:33 pm
Msg: 271 of 322
3 recommendations

John Edwards is being punished for ripping off so many good people in the court room! I LOVE IT! Sweet revenge! "
[quote=DefeatBush,Nov 8 2004, 12:53 PM]
Can you collect a few examples?

[/quote]

[quote=Sparkle,Nov 8 2004, 01:12 PM]
This is about Elizabeth Edwards having breast cancer. This is also one of the milder posts from a "moral" party member.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...sa_edwards_dc_4
"Son died; now fat wife has cancer!
by: lindastepsonyournuts 11/04/04 09:33 pm
Msg: 271 of 322
3 recommendations

John Edwards is being punished for ripping off so many good people in the court room! I LOVE IT! Sweet revenge! "
[quote=DefeatBush,Nov 8 2004, 12:53 PM]
Can you collect a few examples?

[/quote]



That is horrible. Amazing too when the neocons consider themselves the Godly group.