This is beautiful - and what it should all be about!

Pro-Life, pro-choice, pro-solution, or whatever - it all should mean LESS gov't interference!  You want them out of your bedroom, then stop asking for them to pay for solutions when problems arise...you can not have it both ways!  Bush wants to send this, and other issues to that state level - let him do it!  Get him AND the gov't the hell out of it!

trouble with sending it to states-

You will have 10 states where it is legal
You will have 30 states right away illegal
Soem will take a while to decide

Red/Blue situation (red-no abortions, blue-legal)

And, doesn't that mean people in red states would again be disenfranchised based on how much money they have, because they cannot travel to a blue state
because they have no money to get a legal one?

And therefore, it is back to start, with illegal , back alley butcherings

It all comes down to money and it is wrong.

there will be some that will never come around to any pro-choice position.

Ask those people how they feel about Pro-Responsibility.

The freedom of choice... and the responsibility of that choice should rest with the individual.  This also carries with it the responsibility for ones actions.... having sex, use of birth control, being educated, seeking alternatives, considering the potential life that is being carried, living with the consequences of ones own actions and decisions, bearing the burden both emotionally and financially. 

Responsibility.  I'm all for it.

Funding of abortions is not even a part of the abortion debate.... and don't allow people to make it one.  It is merely a smokescreen / Red Herring they use to bolster their argument. 

The fact that tax dollars may fund such procedures when they do not personally support it is no different than the tax dollars that are spent supporting hundreds... probably thousands... of programs that waste tax dollars for programs that a vast majority of us would disagree with.  Do I (or you) like it that some of my tax dollars go to support things I oppose.. of course not.... but that's just the way it is.

Don't the same people keep complaining about their tax dollars going to lazy welfare mothers and their plethora of offspring?

One bill that provides a comprehensive approach to the problem of unintended pregnancies encapsulates many of these efforts. It's called "The Putting Prevention First Act." It provides a roadmap to the destination of fewer unwanted pregnancies -- to the day when abortion is truly safe, legal, and rare. The Putting Prevention First Act, which I was proud to co-sponsor in the last Congress, increases funding for Title X; expands Medicaid family-planning services to provide access for more low-income women; ensures that health plans that cover prescription drugs also cover prescription contraceptives; funds emergency contraception public-education campaigns for doctors, nurses and women; ensures that hospital emergency rooms offer emergency contraception to victims of sexual assault; and establishes the nation's first-ever federal sex-education program.

A very similar version of the Putting Prevention First Act is being introduced today, one of the first bills introduced by Minority Leader Harry Reid, to lay out the Democratic plan for women's reproductive healthcare. I am proud to be a co-sponsor of this bill and I will work very hard to see that it is enacted. Because I know we can make progress on these issues; the work of the Clinton Administration and so many others saw the rate of abortion consistently fall in the 1990's. The abortion rate fell by one-fourth between 1990 and 1995, the steepest decline since Roe was decided in 1973. The rate fell another 11 percent between 1994 and 2000, from about 24 to 21 abortions for every 1,000 women of childbearing age.

But unfortunately, in the last few years, while we are engaged in an ideological debate instead of one that uses facts and evidence and commonsense, the rate of abortion is on the rise in some states. In the three years since President Bush took office, 8 states saw an increase in abortion rates (14.6% average increase), and four saw a decrease (4.3% average), so we have a lot of work still ahead of us.

I think it's important that family planning advocates reach out to those who may not agree with us on everything to try to find common ground in those areas where, hopefully, emergency contraception, more funding for prenatal care and others can be a point of common ground.

I don't like the

living with the consequences of ones own actions

You put future guilt into the equation, which should not be there.

That could have harmful effects if one has an abortion. Same with
an adoption for that matter.

Because it is still the female who has this, not the male. Because the male could later just blame the female as they do anyhow.

Have you all heard of the Putting Prevention First Act?
From Hillary's January 24th speech:

Have you all heard of the Putting Prevention First Act?
From Hillary's January 24th speech:

S. 20

To expand access to preventive health care services that help reduce unintended pregnancy, reduce the number of abortions, and improve access to women's health care.

IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

January 24, 2005

Mr. REID (for himself, Mrs. MURRAY, Mr. SCHUMER, Mr. CORZINE, Mr. LAUTENBERG, Mrs. CLINTON, Mr. KERRY, Mrs. FEINSTEIN, Ms. CANTWELL, Mr. HARKIN, Ms. MIKULSKI, Mr. INOUYE, Mr. AKAKA, Mr. LEVIN, Mr. KENNEDY, Mr. LEAHY, Mr. WYDEN, and Ms. STABENOW) introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions

A BILL

To expand access to preventive health care services that help reduce unintended pregnancy, reduce the number of abortions, and improve access to women's health care.

yeah, the anti-choicers attacked her for it.  she's disengenuous in their opinion.

I don't like the

living with the consequences of ones own actions

You put future guilt into the equation, which should not be there.

That could have harmful effects if one has an abortion. Same with
an adoption for that matter.

Because it is still the female who has this, not the male. Because the male could later just blame the female as they do anyhow.

graham4anything I almost lost interest in this topic until you just chimed in with this one.  Are you an older woman like myself?  I get irritated with the framing of this issue and the philosophical crap.  Furthermore I would like this same topic reposted for women to hash it out.  As a teacher in a predominately poor hispanic Catholic demographic public school, I have listened to laments of mothers who were faced with this decision.  They already have more children than they can afford, their husbands refuse to allow birth control, their religion tells them no, and many of them cannot even vote as they are not citizens.  They turn to their female relatives for help and sometimes us teachers.  This is a womens issue!

Abortion is one of many issues that Democrats need to talk about in a way that defangs the Republican right's depiction of the Democratic Party as the party of licentious sex and abortion.

Abortion is one of many issues that Democrats need to talk about in a way that defangs the Republican right's depiction of the Democratic Party as the party of licentious sex and abortion.

I don't like the

living with the consequences of ones own actions

You put future guilt into the equation, which should not be there.

That could have harmful effects if one has an abortion. Same with
an adoption for that matter.

Because it is still the female who has this, not the male. Because the male could later just blame the female as they do anyhow.

I'm one of those hundreds of thousands of women who now regret my abortion and wish I could go back in time and throw away all that I have if I could just change what I did? And there ARE hundreds of thousands of us. Probably tens of millions, but most can't come out and admit their grief and regret, because of arguments such as yours.

A MESSAGE TO THE
RIGHT‐TO‐LIFE MOVEMENT FROM
NARAL PRO‐CHOICE AMERICA

PLEASE, HELP US PREVENT ABORTIONS

For years, your groups and ours have waged one of the country’s most divisive political wars over a woman’s right to choose. We believe passionately that women have the right to decide for themselves when to bring children into the world – without government interference. You disagree – passionately and sincerely.

We will never resolve our differences on this basic question. But we should agree on an equally fundamental point: America would be a better country if no woman ever faced the difficult choices posed by an unintended pregnancy. What better way to end the debate over abortion rights than by eliminating the reasons women seek abortion?

The time has come to join together in a new campaign to reduce the number of abortions. Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid – who disagrees with us on the issue of abortion – has offered a commonsense bill called the Prevention First Act which would help reduce unintended pregnancies through better access to birth control. This landmark legislation represents a serious first step in addressing the problem, and I hope you’ll join pro‐choice Americans and me in offering your support.

Let’s work together to pass this bill, and make it the first step in a dialogue about preventing unintended pregnancies.

I eagerly await your answer.

Nancy Keenan
President
NARAL Pro‐Choice America

Right you are beamer...

One of the GOP's most cherished divisive issues and one of the most sharply dividing.  If we could put this one to bed, or at least take the rhetoric down a couple of notches, it would change the political landscape.

Another suggestion might be...

Pro-Responsibility.

The freedom of choice... and the responsibility of that choice should rest with the individual.  This also carries with it the responsibility for ones actions.... having sex, use of birth control, being educated, seeking alternatives, considering the potential life that is being carried, living with the consequences of ones own actions and decisions, bearing the burden both emotionally and financially. 

Responsibility.  I'm all for it.

If you go check the comments from Annie at my blog, you'll see that pro choice advocates (not the bf, unless he forced her to have an abortion as so many of them do) seem to cause the problems for those who make the mistake of terminating and our arguments prevent those who made the mistake of terminating admit it's a mistake:

According to this woman and her fan base, women are victims in abortion and the pro-choice movement is not protecting our right to privacy and ability to make personal medical decision, we are protecting abortion.  They also claim that in demanding reproductive rights were are only exercising our right to avoid parenthood (she forgets, there's no unalienable right to procreate - that's a matter of biology). .. they don't understand we may or may not want to have children, reproductive rights allow us to delay/prevent pregnancy not just terminate it; they allow us the right to have a healthy pregnancy if/when we become pregnant and they allow us not to be forced into getting pregnant against our will - but that doesn't matter.


Pro-Responsibility: Responsible People Making Responsible Decisions

The freedom of choice... and the responsibility of that choice should rest with the individual.  This also carries with it the responsibility for ones actions.... having sex, use of birth control, being educated, seeking alternatives, considering the potential life that is being carried, living with the consequences of ones own actions and decisions, bearing the burden both emotionally and financially.

Responsibility.  I'm all for it.

Pro-Responsibility: Responsible People Making Responsible Decisions

We pledge to ensure that abortion is Safe, Legal and Rare, and that this goal is achievable. Decrease demand by improving education and contraception. Discourage those who are still too young, vulnerable and emotionally immature from engaging in sexually intimate activities that put them at risk for too many things (both physical and emotional). Encourage partnerships between Women's Health Clinics, adoption agencies and Family Health Clinics/Social Workers in order to support women and children at risk.  We  support this because it's right, not for political expedience.

Responsible People Make Thoughtful & Responsible Decisions

Don't ever think that those woman who have the abortions don't bear the responsibility. We paint a picture of these women as tramps, sluts, whores. just having uncontroled sex because they know that if worse comes to worse they can abort and not worry about the conseqences.
It may surprise you to know these women have feelings. They may even be your next door neighbor, a younglady in church, or a co-worker. They know what they've done, and some bear the scares their whole life. Thats the cost to the woman who makes that decision. They pay when they walk past a play ground and see the children playing, and don't think they don't feel anything when they see a mother and child together.
I had a friend who feel in love with a loser, a real scumbag, and sad to say an ex-friend of mine. She made a mistake and one night she gave in, she got pregnant. Shortly after he shipped off back to New Jersey, and she was left , young, pregnant and alone. In desperation she had an abortion. That was over thirty years ago and it haunts her to this day, so don't ever think they don't bear the responsibility.

I agree.  Like this Putting Prevention First Act, the religious right claims that the sole purpose of this act is to promote condom use!  Yeah, right!  They don't want unmarried people having sex, so they don't want condoms to be readily available, even though condoms prevent sexually transmitted diseases and help to prevent pregnancy.

It doesn't say that the women is responsible for getting pregnant.

This is one of the things that I find most frustrating about the right with regard to this issue.  They don't want the abortions... yet they don't want anyone telling kids about birth control.  They live in some deluded state of reality where they believe that they can dictate behavior through law. 

They need to face the reality of the situation and determine which is the lesser of the two evils (not the best choice of words.... but it fits).  Do they prefer to minimize the number of abortions through promoting responsible behavior, or do they want to stick their head in the sand and allow irresponsible behavior that results in more unwanted pregnancies ?

It seems to me that THEY are the ones who are being irresponsible in this case.
They need to face reality and the fact that people are not going to live their lives in the manner that THEY desire.

Responsible actions lead to responsible results.  That is why WE should be promoting Responsibility.

Pray tell, how does a women, except in cases of rape, not bear partial (key word there, partial) responsibiltiy for getting pregnant?

Don't ever think that those woman who have the abortions don't bear the responsibility. We paint a picture of these women as tramps, sluts, whores. just having uncontroled sex because they know that if worse comes to worse they can abort and not worry about the conseqences.
It may surprise you to know these women have feelings. They may even be your next door neighbor, a younglady in church, or a co-worker. They know what they've done, and some bear the scares their whole life. Thats the cost to the woman who makes that decision. They pay when they walk past a play ground and see the children playing, and don't think they don't feel anything when they see a mother and child together.
I had a friend who feel in love with a loser, a real scumbag, and sad to say an ex-friend of mine. She made a mistake and one night she gave in, she got pregnant. Shortly after he shipped off back to New Jersey, and she was left , young, pregnant and alone. In desperation she had an abortion. That was over thirty years ago and it haunts her to this day, so don't ever think they don't bear the responsibility.

Three things:

    1. The opposite of pro-life is not pro-death, its pro-choice. There is no "pro-        death"

    2.You can not reasonably be pro-life and pro-choice.

      3. We don't get to define pro-life or pro-choice anymore than we get to
          define our own arithemetic.

  What you say will merely obfuscate the issue.

I don't think I understand your point by posting the quote by "Annie."  She regrets having had an abortion.  Are you saying that someone coerced her into having one? 

I know many women who have regrets and emotional scars from having abortions.  However, even with these regrets, they think they did the right thing.  This just shows that it's not an easy decision.  Women who don't feel some sense of regret or loss are in denial, in my opinion.

Pro-Responsibility doesn't assume either because it is about the right to choose after the fact. We already know that responsibility needs to be exercise before getting pregnant. The key here is it forces the opponents, of the right to choose, consider the exceptions.

Abortion really is an issue where there is no compromise. If you believe otherwise, go to any coffee house and discuss it with 10 people; you would see what I meant.

Ok, I appreciate the clarification, but "after the fact" honestly is not the best time to have to make this sort of choice.  Now, while I strongly oppose abortion (execpt to save a mothers life), I will agree with what others are saying that education is KEY and education really ought emphize "before the fact" rather than after-ie, inform folks of risks and methods to avoid those risks (birth control is one of those methods). 

On the purely political side, I think the Democrats are going to run into problems if they now start implicitly agreeing that abortion dystroys a human life and yet continue to legal advocate abortion on demand.  There appears to be a huge contradiction here that is not lost on most folks.  Trying to win over those against abortion on demand is going to prove exeedingly difficult with this approach, in my humble opinion*.

*which has been wrong before, mind you.

She's actually claiming the majority of abortions of convenience are done by women who are forced/coerced into abortions because they are confused and that the pro-choice movement encourages this victimization of women.  She doesn't just think she did worng, she tells me she's sorry that I made the wrong decision (I'm just too indoctrinated to understand that "being sick" isn't an excuse for murdering a baby).  There's a cult of them, ranging ftom those with "recovered memories" of being forced into their abortions, to women who claim they wouldn't have terminated if PP had encouraged them to consider adoption (or at least discussed the option more) and actively discouraged them from terminating.  They see themselves (and all women) as victims of the pro-choice movement and abortion; if it weren't an option, let alone an acceptable one, there wouldn't be abortions.  According to her, few women don't regret their decision and think they made a mistake, I guess we don't talk about ours because we're hiding our shame.

but this country may well
determine a watershed period after which abortion
will become illegal. As liberal as I am on most issues,
late term abortion and partial birth abortion greatly
offend me. Mac2 provides a valuable service
with his opinion. May we agree to disagree? And accept
the fact that many (as Mac2 says) will have strong, varied opinions?

Reproductive laws Romania 1966-1984
Laws could be changed to restrict access to contraception and limit abortion to: pregnancy that is imminently life-threatening to the mother; pregnancy resulting from rape or incest; one parent suffered from a serious hereditary disease or a disease likely to cause serious congenital malformations; the pregnant woman suffered from a serious physical, mental, or sensory disorder; advanced maternal over age 45; or the pregnant woman had given birth to at least four children that were under her care. Except in the case of a life-threatening situation, abortions will have to be approved by a medical board and be performed in the first trimester in a specialized unit. Women who obtain illegal abortions, and those who perform them, will be subject to fines and imprisonment.

Additionally all women of reproductive age will be required to undergo regular gynecological examinations at their place of employment. Pregnant women will be monitored until delivery, doctors were required to report all women who became pregnant and gynecological wards were under continuous surveillance. Investigations will be carried out to determine the cause of all miscarriages.

Talk about not taking responsibility!  Do these women want to play victim for the rest of their lives?  This is like saying, "The devil made me do it."

Ok, I appreciate the clarification, but "after the fact" honestly is not the best time to have to make this sort of choice.  Now, while I strongly oppose abortion (execpt to save a mothers life), I will agree with what others are saying that education is KEY and education really ought emphize "before the fact" rather than after-ie, inform folks of risks and methods to avoid those risks (birth control is one of those methods). 

Abortion and contraception have been widely available throughout the history of Western Civilization, despite ethical concerns. Plato and Aristotle both argued in favor of compulsory abortion under certain circumstances, though Hippocrates expressly disapproved of the practice. Under Roman law, life was said to begin at birth. Abortions were thus legal, though regulated to protect the rights of the father. References to abortion were included in the writings of Ovid, Seneca, Juvenal and Pliny, who included a list of abortifacients (drugs that induce an abortion) in one text. Early Christian philosophers, including St. Augustine, Ivo of Chartres and Gratian, disapproved of abortion when it broke the link between the sexual act and procreation, but argued that abortion of what Ivo termed an 'unformed embryo' did not constitute homicide.

Religious authorities have taken various positions on abortion throughout history (see Religion and abortion). In 1588, Pope Sixtus V adopted a papal bull adopting the position of St. Thomas Aquinas that contraception and abortion were crimes against nature and sins against marriage. This verdict was relaxed three years later by Pope Gregory XIV, who pronounced that abortion before 'hominization' should not be subject to church penalties that were any stricter than civil penalties. Common law positions on abortion in individual countries varied significantly from country to country. English common law considered abortions before 'quickening' - when the movements of the fetus could first be felt by the mother - to be morally and legally acceptable.

Many Western countries began to make abortion illegal in the 19th century. Anti-abortion forces were led by a combination of conservative groups opposed to abortion on moral grounds and medical professionals who were concerned about the danger presented by the procedure and the regular involvement of non-medical personnel in performing abortions.

It became clear in the following years, however, that illegal abortions continued to take place in large numbers even where abortions were expressly illegal. It was difficult to obtain sufficient evidence to prosecute the mothers and doctors, and judges and juries were often reluctant to convict. Many were also outraged at the invasion of privacy and the medical problems resulting from abortions taking place illegally in medically dangerous circumstances. Political movements soon coalesced around the legalization of abortion and liberalization of existing laws.

By the early 20th century, many countries had begun to legalize abortions when performed to protect the life of the mother, and in some cases to protect the health of the mother. Under Vladimir Lenin, the Soviet Union legalized all abortions in 1920, but this was fully reversed in 1936 by Joseph Stalin in order to increase population growth. Iceland was the first Western country to legalize therapeutic abortion under limited circumstances, doing so in 1935, and the earliest country to do so without recriminalizing it later. Only a handful of countries - mostly in Scandinavia decriminalized abortion before Britain in 1967. Others soon followed, including Canada (1969), the United States (1973 in most states), France (1975), West Germany (1976), New Zealand (1977), Italy (1978) and the Netherlands (1980).

nobody is saying it destroys a human life, there has been NO change.
Life starts at birth.

Wow! 12 pages of opinion on this thread.
Perhaps the most ever?
I must admit I skimmed most, stopping
to read Mac2 mostly.

We should be able to agree abortion is a tragic
event, not matter that as a man I have no
business telling a woman what she should do.

I'm pretty simple. All women should have the same
choices, not matter their incomes. I pray they will
deal with reproductive functions prior to pregnancy.

If not, the women, their clergy, their confidants,
and God should influence them. We should not
put a firewall on women, but this country may well
determine a watershed period after which abortion
will become illegal. As liberal as I am on most issues,
late term abortion and partial birth abortion greatly
offend me. Mac2 provides a valuable service
with his opinion. May we agree to disagree? And accept
the fact that many (as Mac2 says) will have strong, varied opinions?

Then why is it best that abortion be so rare?  I really am curious, as in my mind there is a logical contradiction here.

I think you are reading more into my words or taking them slightly out of context.

Of course the women you speak of have borne the responsibility... or more aptly... burden in some cases.  And THAT is precisely why people need to understand their responsibilities BEFORE they engage in sex without birth control. 

I am not painting any "picture"... merely suggesting that we educate people as to the fact that they ARE responsible for their actions and that those actions do carry consequences... irreversible consequences... that they have to live with no matter what their choice may be.  The weight of that responsibility may in turn bring more responsible actions.

I'm not  condemning anyone for the choices they have made.  Guilt is a terrible thing and I feel for those faced with such a decsion... both in having to make such a decision AND in living with that decision afterward.  If we can impress upon the youth the weight of the responsibility in making decisions to prevent unwanted pregnancies maybe we can help prevent the far greater pain that comes with having to face that situation.

They happen less than a dozen times a year, and ALL of them basically are due to a medical emergency.
It is a non-issue the right has let people fall for.

Matter of fact, if the right would not have put some restrictions in, normal abortions would be done even sooner.