Consumers need to be aware of the REAL COST of oil?

HHHHhhhhmmmmm.

Well, you know what?

I think that I am!

Yes, I actually do!

I have some experience in that "field" as an engineer, and some awareness of what it takes to get oil out of the ground AS CRUDE, and to get it into a barrel, for sale, AS CRUDE, and so ......

What I think is that the REAL COST of a barrel of CRUDE OIL is quite low, compared to what we are being CHARGED FOR IT, which is making someone quite a healthy PROFIT, and that is really where it is, isn't it?

Somebody has to make a PROFIT!

That is what it is all about, isn't it?

Dick?

Isn't it?

This morning, on the radio news, I heard them make a comment about how much time has now passed since we first heard the words "SHOCK" and "AWE" with respect to George W. Bush's airborne invasion of the Iraq oilfields, which was followed by an armored BLITZKREIG into the very heart of Iraq in order to stifle any resistance to the armed take-over of the Iraqi oil-fields by George W. Bush and Dick Cheney.

"SHOCK" and "AWE"!

What a load of horse crap that all was!

As if George W. Bush were forty feet tall and ---- like a -----!

Yeah, right!

"Activists protest Iraq war on anniversary"

By SAM DOLNICK, Associated Press
Last updated: 6:15 p.m., Saturday, March 19, 2005

NEW YORK -- Anti-war activists marched in the streets of American cities big and small Saturday, stopping traffic and lying down alongside flag-draped cardboard coffins to mark the second anniversary of the start of the war in Iraq.

Some of the demonstrators were arrested in New York as they demanded that U.S. troops be brought home.

"This country was founded by acts of civil disobedience," said David McReynolds, 75, of New York, as he marched along 42nd Street.

"We have an obligation to make our resistance public and to say as clearly as we can that the war is illegal."

In San Francisco, hundreds of protesters rallied in Dolores Park in the city's Mission district, holding up posters with photographs of dead American soldiers.

The protesters then marched to San Francisco City Hall for another rally.

One protester dressed up like the hooded Iraqi prisoner in the famous photo taken of detainee abuse at Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison.

The woman was surrounded by others wearing masks of President Bush, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, who were dancing to the song "Shout" by the Isley Brothers.

"This is a war of aggression," said Ed McManus, 54, a Marin County resident who served in the Navy during the Vietnam War.

"Bush has admitted by his actions and his deeds that he is a war criminal."

Organizers encouraged civility at rallies in the city, where protests just after the war began were among the most vocal and angry in the country, with thousands of arrests and frequent conflicts between police and demonstrators.

Police wearing helmets and armed with batons lined the streets Saturday, but they reported no disturbances.

Across Europe, tens of thousands of protesters also packed streets and public parks to protest the war.

In England, 45,000 people marched from London's Hyde Park past the American Embassy to Trafalgar Square, while an estimated 15,000 people -- some carrying signs reading "Murderer Bush, get out" -- marched in Turkey.

Hundreds in New York listened to anti-war speeches at the United Nations, then marched along 42nd Street across Manhattan to Times Square, where police penned them in on a sidewalk.

A small contingent of protesters then knelt in front of a military recruiting station and lay down on Broadway next to the flag-draped coffins.

Traffic was stopped for about five minutes before police moved in and arrested 27 protesters.

"It's such a small act in light of over 100,000 Iraqis dead and 1,500 American soldiers dead," Anna Brown, 40, of Jersey City, N.J., said before she was arrested.

In Chicago, hundreds of police, some in riot gear, escorted about a thousand marchers down Dearborn Avenue to an afternoon rally at the Federal Plaza.

Police were trying to avoid a repeat of two years ago when thousands of protesters caused a huge traffic jam during rush hour and hundreds were arrested.

Only two arrests were reported Saturday.

More than 1,000 people also marched through Pittsburgh, including many who initially supported the war but have since changed their minds, said Tim Vining, a protest organizer.

"It's not what even people who supported this war in the beginning, it's not what they signed up for," he said.

"I think people realize the tide is turning" and that to protest isn't seen as unpatriotic.

In the small town of Cottage Grove, Ore., just south of Eugene, about 230 protesters walked two-by-two through the streets, some carrying bells, others holding a half-mile-long chain of flags bearing the names of American troops and Iraqi children killed during the war.

"The best thing we can do is get out, and get out as fast as we can," said Ron Betts, 58, a disabled Vietnam veteran.

About 300 demonstrators also gathered in front of the New Mexico National Guard Armory in Albuquerque, some holding signs saying, "Bush's lies kill" and "You can't be pro-life and pro-war."

Pieces of paper were glued to the sidewalk, all bearing the names and faces of dead American soldiers.

"That's a whole tsunami worth of people, vanished," said Maureen Small, an Albuquerque physician.

------

Associated Press writers Justin M. Norton in San Francisco, Dan Nephin in Pittsburgh, Peter Barnes in Albuquerque and Niki Sullivan in Cottage Grove, Ore., contributed to this report.

And while those honorable Americans are utilizing THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS in a socially responsible manner, TO ME, at least, what does the Bush Co. have to say about things in Iraq, today, or the Middle East, or even here, in OUR America, where gas is going to be a luxury for me, since it already is right now, and I personally have never been less secure at any other time in my life than I am right now:

White House - AP

"Bush: Saddam's Ouster Inspired Reformers"

Sat Mar 19, 2:07 PM ET

By JENNIFER LOVEN, Associated Press Writer

WACO, Texas - The U.S. military victory against Saddam Hussein's regime in Iraq gets the credit for "inspiring democratic reformers from Beirut to Tehran," President Bush said Saturday.

"Today, women can vote in Afghanistan, Palestinians are breaking the old patterns of violence, and hundreds of thousands of Lebanese are rising up to demand their sovereignty and democratic rights," Bush said in a weekly radio address that marked the two-year anniversary of the start of the Iraq war.

"These are landmark events in the history of freedom," he said.

With his primary rationale for the war — Saddam's alleged possession of weapons of mass destruction — discredited, Bush has turned to the argument that the war in Iraq was justified because it freed the Iraqi people from a brutal dictator and now gives the Middle East a model for democracy.

Bush said "the Iraqi people are taking charge of their own destiny," citing the country's first free and fair elections in its modern history, this week's first meeting of the Transitional National Assembly and the upcoming drafting of a constitution for a "free and democratic Iraq."

Against that progress, insurgents have carried on a relentless campaign of suicide bombings, kidnappings and beheadings while rampant crime, power outages, unemployment over 50 percent and a fuel crisis in one of the world's prime oil-exporting countries continues.

Even as the Iraqi legislators convened, they did not set a new date to meet reconvene, elect a speaker or nominate a president and vice president.

Some have questioned Bush's repeated claims that recent democratic developments in several global hotspots are due to both the Iraq war and his second-term drive to push for reforms in friend and foe.

Still, the president has pointed to democratic gains in Afghanistan, Ukraine, Lebanon and the Palestinian territories, as well as the relatively peaceful elections in Iraq.

"Today we're seeing hopeful signs across the broader Middle East," Bush said.

"The victory of freedom in Iraq is strengthening a new ally in the war on terror, and inspiring democratic reformers from Beirut to Tehran."

The president saluted military personnel who died in Iraq, numbering more than 1,500 since the start of the war in March 2003, and the families who have endured long separations from loved ones.

"I know that nothing can end the pain of the families who have lost loved ones in this struggle, but they can know that their sacrifice has added to America's security and the freedom of the world," he said.

"Because of our actions, freedom is taking root in Iraq, and the American people are more secure."

Bush is spending the weekend at his ranch in Crawford, Texas, arriving there Friday night after a day traveling in Florida to pitch his plans to overhaul Social Security.

On Monday, he embarks on a two-day trip in the West to continue pitching his Social Security proposals and then returns to his ranch for meetings Wednesday with Mexican President Vicente Fox and Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin.

Afterward, Bush plans to spend the rest of Easter week at the ranch before going back to Washington.

What does he know about war?
He thinks it's a political instrument.

Instead it is a viseral test of the honor
of men, those who belive in "duty".

It is dirty, it is violent, it is mean.
It requires that men are able to end all
the hopes, dreams, and potential family
of others like them.

And, until GWB is able to "play the game"
he has no place to discuss it.
There was a line in Platoon: "What do you
know about death?"

Another line: in The Unforgiven-
Killin' takes all a man is and all he
ever will be.

And, to do it you have to be ready to give
up all you have and will have. When you ask
men to do this you had better be just.

When you play God, you had better know Him,
because He will judge you. Lord please forgive me.

Indianhead, welcome aboard!

Your words have quite a bit of "impact" in them, and that is for sure.

And you are right "dead on" the money with your statement above about George W. Bush USING war as a political instrument, although to me, it really may be as a religious instrument as well, as in Mr. A.B's "Religion and Politics" thread on George W. Bush and the Holy Bible, we have tracked in there the statements made by George W. Bush that he is in fact an instrument of God himself, and so makes war in God's name, which is something that I personally have not heard from another living world leader in my own lifetime.

And the last that I can think of would have been Hitler and the Japanese under the "divine" Emporer.

Which brings me to your last words above which I have highlighted in red.

I would say that of all the topics that I hear discussed in the "real world" out there, that is high up on the list, this supposed "divinity" of George W. Bush himself, and whether or not he does really act in God's name, as his "agency" down here on earth.

There is a movie by Werner Hertzog, I believe it is, entitled "Aguirre, Wrath of God", and Klaus Kinski plays Aguirre, who is a Conquistador "soldier" in the Andes mountains with Pizarro, I think it was.

When I think of George W. Bush "playing at war", for sport, or whatever it is that motivates that man, and it could be God for all we know, for God's own mysterious purposes, I am led to think of Klaus Kinski as "Aguirre" in that movie, and we are all along for the "ride" just as were the others of that ill-fated "expedition" who were stuck with Aguirre as their "leader", the WRATH OF GOD!

People like George W. Bush are DESTROYERS who BRING THINGS DOWN, and cause consternation on the face of the earth!

The question in here is why God would choose George W. Bush AT THIS TIME, to fulfill that purpose, in OUR lifetimes?

And it is not a frivolous question!

It is a deadly serious one, as many of OUR troops have already found out, along with countless Iraqis who just happened to be in George W. Bush's "sights" that day, and so were nothing more than fodder for his killing!

Perhaps what the American people really need to consider is that when YOU SUPPORT A MAN WHO PLAYS AT BEING "GOD", AND CAUSES HUMAN MISERY AND SUFFERING IN HIS NAME, WHICH YOU THEN GLORIFY, AND REJOICE AT, THEN YOU TOO, HAD BETTER KNOW GOD AS WELL, FOR YOU TOO SHALL BE JUDGED!

And if you can't handle that "reality", perhaps you should not "walk the road" that will lead you to go there!

And that brings us to today!

SO!

How about that?

This morning, when I turned on the radio, the local news was on, and a bunch of business people were "lamenting" that because of the high cost of gas and fuel, business in upstate New York related to fishing was likely to be down quite a bit, because not only is fuel for your vehicle quite a bit more expensive, but gas for boats, if you buy it at a marina, will be right out of sight.

And then one of them said words to the effect of "Somebody needs to do something about this", and all I could think of was "WHY DIDN'T YOU WHEN YOU HAD THE CHANCE AT THE POLLS LAST NOVEMBER?"

THE LONG HARD RIDE FOR AMERICA HAS BEGUN, and with it comes the inevitable weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, to which I say, "BUCK UP, BOYS, FOR IT HAS ONLY JUST BEGUN!"

And who of us shall survive to see the other side, if in fact there is to be one?

Stay tuned!

That is something we are all quite curious about in here, as George W. Bush and Condoleeza "CON-JOB" Rice now get set to take on ALL OF EUROPE over the question of who is the BIGGEST, BADDEST NATION ON THE FACE OF THIS EARTH:

World - AP Asia

"Rice: European Nations Must Not Arm China"

1 hour, 15 minutes ago

By ANNE GEARAN, AP Diplomatic Writer

BEIJING - Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice suggested Sunday that European governments are irresponsible if they sell sophisticated weaponry to China that might one day be used against U.S. forces in the Pacific.

"It is the United States, not Europe, that is defending the Pacific," Rice said.

She spoke in Seoul, the penultimate stop on her weeklong tour of Asia.

South Korea, Japan and the United States are all Pacific powers and all contribute resources to keep the Asia-Pacific region stable, Rice said.

The European Union may soon lift an arms embargo on China that was imposed after the deadly 1989 crackdown on pro-democracy protesters in Tiananmen Square.

Lifting the embargo would allow sale of technology and weapons that China badly wants to modernize its creaky military.

China has recently gone on a military spending spree that Rice said concerns the United States.

"The European Union should do nothing to contribute," to the possibility that Chinese forces might turn European technology on Americans, Rice said after meetings with the South Korean president and foreign minister.

Rice has earlier said that China's recent statements about a possible invasion of Taiwan should give the Europeans pause.

China passed a law this month codifying its intention to use military force against Taiwan should the island declare formal independence.

Rice said she would raise U.S. objections to the Taiwan development with Chinese officials in two days of talks, along with long-standing concerns over Chinese human rights practices and violations of intellectual property rights.

Rice will also ask China for more help to persuade communist North Korea to return to international nuclear disarmament talks.

The Pyongyang government of Kim Jong Il announced last month what the United States has long suspected: It has already built at least one nuclear weapon.

The United States, Russia, Japan, South Korea and China began a joint diplomatic effort with North Korea last year aimed at persuading the country to give up its nuclear program.

But those six-nation talks, hosted by China, stalled in September, when the North Koreans pulled out and refused to return to the discussions.

In Seoul, Rice conducted an unusual press conference with Korean Internet reporters.

The event, meant to highlight the freewheeling nature of computer communication in an open democracy, got off to a bad start when American security guards tackled a peace activist as he shouted to get Rice's attention.

"Miss Rice, the North Korean people are dying and they are crying for your help," yelled the activist, German physician and former aid worker Norbert Vollertsen.

He held up a poster that read "Freedom for North Korea: 50 Years Overdue," until a State Department employee ripped the poster in half.

As Rice took her seat for the news conference, security officers literally muffled Vollertsen while wrestling him to the carpeted floor.

He had talked his way into the event before Rice arrived, but a U.S. Embassy public affairs officer recognized him at the last moment and demanded he be removed.

In replies to the Korean journalists, Rice described TRUE DEMOCRACY as the ability to "say what you wish, worship as you please and educate your children, boys and girls."

In contrast to the closed society of North Korea, Rice said, "you can come here and think what you want and ask me anything — the United States secretary of state — and what a wonderful thing that is."

end quotes

So long as you do not ask about peace or whatever for North Korea, I guess, right "CON-JOB"?

And for some reason, and whoever knows what they really are, that bit of "HIGH WIERDNESS" with "MISS CON-JOB" and "demockery" over there in Seoul brings me back here to the continental United States, and up here to the corrupt EMPIRE STATE of Bush Co. "MONEY MAN" George Pataki, where the serfs and other commoners are now making some noise, for which they may have to be "put down hard" by the Pataki "GOD-SQUAD", about Pataki's plans to give the GOOD CHRISTIANS AND OTHER ASSORTED PILGRIMS out there in OUR America all they can handle in terms of having as many places as possible besides stuffy Las Vegas, and long-in-the-tooth, and seedy Atlantic City to go and do their necessary "tithing", er, GAMBLING, WHICH, OF COURSE, IN PATAKI'S VIEW, should be the corrupt EMPIRE STATE!

After all, why should the GEETUS and MOOLAH, which he worships, go in to a pocket other than his?

He's as good a christian as the next man, isn't he?

"Poll finds stakes too high for more casinos - Capital Region survey shows concern over betting's social cost"

By JAMES M. ODATO, Capitol bureau, Albany, New York Times Union
First published: Sunday, March 20, 2005

ALBANY -- The social cost of Gov. George Pataki's plan to build five tribal casinos in the Catskills would outweigh any economic benefit, according to an exclusive poll of Capital Region residents, a majority of whom claim they aren't big on betting anyway.

Yet a majority say they would support the construction of five new American Indian casinos if they were spread across the state.

They also favor raising money from new casinos over raising taxes.

The Times Union/NewsChannel 13/Siena Poll, conducted by the Siena Research Institute Monday through Wednesday, comes at a time when the issue of whether to expand gambling is being hotly debated in the Capitol.

The survey, which has a margin of error of plus or minus 3.9 percentage points, polled 620 people in Albany, Rensselaer, Saratoga and Schenectady counties.

Most surprising was the large number of people -- 58 percent -- who claimed they rarely gamble on anything anywhere.

The Capital Region is home to the state's premier thoroughbred race track and most productive VLT gambling hall; is home to the New York State Lottery; and is an easy bus ride to several casinos, including Turning Stone in Verona, Oneida County, and Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun in Connecticut.

"When I first looked at it, I said, 'Boy that can't be!' " said research director Douglas Lonnstrom.

"But I haven't been to the track in years, and I've never been to OTB."

He said the region's older, more conservative population comes from backgrounds in which gambling was considered improper.

Indeed, a key finding suggests that while most people of middle age or older don't gamble, young people are more likely drawn to casinos, horse racing and other forms of betting.

People with higher incomes also are more likely to go to the track, presumably Saratoga Race Course, while those who play the state-sanctioned Division of Lottery games come from all income brackets, the poll shows.

Michael Connery, president of Capital District Regional Off-Track Betting Corp., said he was shocked to learn that 88 percent of his prime market claimed they've never been to an OTB parlor.

Surprising, too, he said, were the 79 percent who said they haven't been to racinos like the one at the Saratoga Springs harness track; the 97 percent who said they have never used an Internet gambling site; and the 26 percent who said they have never played a lottery game.

Meanwhile, 44 percent said they play a lottery game occasionally.

Of those polled, 58 percent said they have never gambled at a casino, and just 20 percent said they do so less than once a year.

Sixteen percent said they go up to six times annually; 2 percent, up to 12 times a year; 1 percent, up to 24 times; and 1 percent, more than 25 times.

However, while 44 percent of those surveyed said they would be more likely to try their luck at a casino if ones are established in the Catskills, the respondents also overwhelmingly said they still were "not very likely" to gamble at any of them.

Beyond that, only 8 percent supported Pataki's five-casino Catskills plan, while just more than half those polled said they would prefer spreading five new Indian casinos throughout the state.

"It's a total mix; it's almost a total wash," said Ben Liebman, coordinator of the Racing & Gaming Program at Albany Law School.

He said the poll results could be used by both sides in the casino argument.

"What it's not good for is the notion of having five casinos in the Catskills, but in terms of overall expansion, it's pretty clear that people aren't sure how to proceed."

He said the percentages of people claiming to gamble, though low, probably are about normal for the United States and probably somewhat above average for playing the horses and lottery games.

Pataki has a bill before the Legislature to settle Indian land claims and allow the construction of five tribal casinos.

The Assembly is holding hearings on the bill, including one in Albany on April 5.

The Senate is preparing to vote on the measure by early next month.

Several lawmakers said the findings are intriguing.

"It sounds like they'd like to spread them out, but that's not practical," said state Sen. Hugh Farley, R-Niskayuna.

He said he dislikes the concept of a proliferation of casinos because of the troubles they can bring to people who can't control their betting.

"I'd rather my daughter marry a drunk than a gambler," he said.

Sen. John Bonacic, R-Mount Hope, who represents the Sullivan County region targeted for the casinos, said siting the projects elsewhere in New York wouldn't make economic sense.

The Indian nations and their development partners want to build Las Vegas-like and resort-style casinos in the Catskills to draw customers from New York City to an area state-elected officials specifically selected for casino expansion.

In 2001, the Legislature and Pataki created a law that allows three casinos in Ulster or Sullivan counties.

Pataki now proposes two more in that region.

His goal is to settle Indian land claims, create jobs and use the state's cut of slot machine revenue to finance public education.

"They're looking for a maximum return for the state and the investor," Bonacic said.

"That's what's going to drive the development, not what people think."

He said plenty of people from the Capital Region would venture the 2 hours to the Sullivan County venues once they were marketed as destination attractions.

As for Pataki, his spokesman said the poll provides some ammunition for the governor's view that the state is exporting billions in gambling dollars.

Sixty-five percent of those polled said they would be less likely to go out of state to gamble if casinos were built in the Catskills.

"New York needs to compete, so we can keep jobs and revenues in New York for New Yorkers as opposed to going to Canada or other states like Connecticut, New Jersey and Pennsylvania," said Pataki aide Todd Alhart.

"This fully squares with what Capital Region residents are saying."

Brendan White, a spokesman for the St. Regis Mohawk Tribe, said the casino it proposes for Monticello would satisfy poll respondents who indicated job-creation and revenue production are important to them.

Lee Karr, a leader of the anti-casino faction in Sullivan County, said the poll results seem inconsistent: Respondents say casinos would damage the Catskills, yet they also say it's better to raise revenue for the state from casinos than from taxes.

"Such inconsistency is characteristic of a population that is not yet truly and entirely aware of the destructive implications of increased gambling," Karr said.

Sen. Frank Padavan, R-Queens, the Legislature's most vocal gambling opponent, said the public doesn't understand there are about 250,000 problem gamblers in the state, each of whom costs taxpayers $13,000 a year to deal with their addiction.

James Maney, the New York Council on Problem Gambling's executive director, was unable to confirm Padavan's numbers, but he's concerned about the poll results that show people 18 to 34 years old are more comfortable about gambling than others.

Sixty-two percent, the highest of any age group, say adding casinos would be a way to "create new jobs, increase tourism and boost state revenues."

"This is the first age group where gambling was completely legal and acceptable," he said.

"Since it's become more socially acceptable, more folks are doing it in that age group than in other age groups."

"Are we ready to deal with the consequences as a result of this, the increase in problem gambling?"

The poll found, however, that a majority of people would rather the state find ways to economize than turn to casinos.

That's why casino expansion should be a last alternative, said Assemblyman James Tedisco, R-Schenectady.

He said the poll suggests gambling isn't as popular as one might think.

"If they don't gamble here, where do they gamble in the state of New York?" he said.

Sen. Neil Breslin, D-Bethlehem, said asking people to choose economizing over casinos is a loaded question.

"The debate on gambling will continue, and the benefits from it on balance, for education, are better than not having it," he said.

Well, I don't have a daughter, BUT ....

If I did, I would hope that she would be able to find a man in her life who was simply hard-working!

Let this politician's daughter marry a drunk, if he wants a drunk for a son-in-law, but sorry, not me!

Of course, if this Pataki has his way, maybe that is all the next generation of women up here will have for their choices - DRUNKS, or GAMBLERS!

And how about that for some choices, will you?

As for me, I think that I am glad that I am old, and so had a chance to see what life outside the sewer really looked and smelled like, before George Pataki and HIS CROWD came along, and buried it under a brown haze that emanates from the top of State Street Hill in George Pataki's CAPITAL CITY of Albany, New York!

GAMBLING FEVER!

Hey, folks, you just have to have it, you know, OR YOU JUST ARE NOT A GOOD MURIKAN!

It's for ED-JU-MA-CA-TION, after all, or didn't you know that?

And yes, it is!

Up here, where to be a member in GOOD STANDING of the corrupt EMPIRE STATE, "gambling" for the sake of ED-JU-MA-CA-TION is now muti-generational, where the older generations are teaching their children and grandchildren how to GAMBLE, so as to be GOOD CHRISTIANS AND PILGRIMS FOR GEORGE PATAKI, in the cause of ED-JU-MA-CA-TION, as he likes to tell us non-gamblers, anyway!

Of course, if GAMBLING was really this panacea, WHY DO MY SCHOOL TAXES KEEP ROCKETING UPWARDS LIKE AN ICBM, and why can't kids getting out of OUR schools up here READ, or do basic math without an expensive calculator or computer at hand to do the math for them?

Probably too busy gambling with their parents and grandparents in the name of putting a lot of GEETUS and MOOLAH in the over-stuffed pocket of the corrupt EMPIRE STATE, in the name of ED-JU-MA-CA-TION, FOR THEM TO ACTUALLY HAVE ANY SPARE TIME LEFT OVER, in which to get an actual education, outside of how to work a slot machine, or how to properly "scratch off" a SCRATCH-OFF from the NEW YORK STATE LOTTERY!

BUT ......

NEVER FEAR, says George W. Bush!

BECAUSE OF THIS, HIS AMERICA IS SOMEHOW MORE SECURE!

Or the "CASH-FLOW" from them to him is, anyway, AND THAT IS ALL THAT COUNTS, ISN'T IT?

After all, aren't we the PREMIER CAPITALISTIC NATION in the whole universe?

Which is why George W. Bush sent those probes to Mars, from what I hear, which was to take a survey up there of how many MARTIANS would come to George Pataki's CORRUPT EMPIRE STATE to take a turn at working the slot machines, for ED-JU-MA-CA-TION, of course, which, after all, is one of GOD's great plans for us, that we all know how to properly gamble!

And thereby show all the candid world just how good a CHRISTIAN we are as well!

Welcome aboard, Indianhead.

Bush has been reading (scratch that - Bush can't read). The neo CON ARTISTS have been reading Clausewitz who wrote, 100 odd years ago, that:

"War is a continuation of policy by other means".

Perhaps Caspar Weinberger's 6 rules are more useful:



1. Commit only if our or our allies' vital interests are at stake.

2. If we commit, do so with all the resources necessary to win.

3. Go in only with clear political and military objectives.

4. Be ready to change the commitment if the objectives change, since wars rarely stand still.

5. Only take on commitments that can gain the support of the American people and the Congress.

6. Commit US forces only as a last resort.


How many of these six have the NEO CON MEN covered? By my count, ZERO.

BUMP!

The mods are cleaning house again.

Well, that will keep the rafters in here clear of cobwebs until the next time, then!

Roundheads
Related: United Kingdom History

http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/r/roundhea.asp

Derisive name for the supporters of Parliament during the English civil war.

The name, which originated c.1641, referred to the short haircuts worn by some of the Puritans in contrast to the fashionable long-haired wigs worn by many of the supporters of King Charles I, who were called Cavaliers.

Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition, Copyright © 2005.

And here, jeffmoskin, I would tend to agree with you, BUT .....

IT IS NOT OUR DIME, NOR IS IT OUR PARADIGM, and there is where we go "south" as it were, in this hypothetical argument with the Bush Co.'s over whether Caspar Weinberger's Six or Sixty or even Six Hundred RULES are at all relevant here, because the NEW CON CROWD would simply negate not them, BUT HIM, and so, all that his intellect produced, which is those RULES!

Back in the John Kerry forum, I had captured quite a bit of material where quotes were being made ABOUT George W. Bush and his then-ASCENDENT NEW CONS, and the one that sticks in my mind comes, I believe from either PROPAGANDA, er, make that NEWSWEEK, or the Washington Post, and it was to the effect that the BUSH CO.'S DIDN'T NEED HISTORY AS A GUIDE, BECAUSE THEY WERE WRITING THE HISTORY THAT EVERYONE FROM THIS TIME FORWARD WOULD BE READING!

This is a MIND SET that is hard, I believe, for people to even conceive of, here in OUR America, since it is the first time in my lifetime that I believe that I have encountered this type of mindset OVER HERE in this nation of OURS, and without some knowledge of "personality types" based on real world experience of people, and a knowledge of human psychology and history, I MIGHT NOT HAVE RECOGNIZED IT FOR WHAT IT IS TO BE, which is a totally DELUDED command structure in charge of this nation AND ITS MILITARY!

THERE IS NO HISTORY WHICH APPLIES TO GEORGE W. BUSH!

GEORGE W. BUSH IS LIVING HISTORY!

QED!

Alpha and Omega, all in one!

And so, Caspar Weinberger is just not relevant!

WHEN YOU ARE GOD, YOU ARE INFALLIBLE!

When you serve GOD, as do the NEW CONS, then as vessels, and conduits, you are pure!

This is LORD PROTECTOR CROMWELL and the ROUNDHEADS all over again!

Or some perverted variation on that "scenario", more likely, as I see it!

OR .....

Maybe this is really BIBLICAL PROPHESY COME TRUE, just as KARL ROVE HAS SAID!

SO!

THE "PARADIGM"!

Stay tuned!

SURREAL: having the intense irrational reality of a dream!

Which certainly defines and describes what this Bush Co. seems like to me, ESPECIALLY AFTER this most wierd PRESS CONFERENCE in Seoul that Miss Condoleeza just held, where AFTER her thugs took down a man hard and MUZZLED HIM, by exercise of overwhelming physical force, ON HIM, to prevent him from even having, let alone exercising, his right to FREE SPEECH in SOUTH KOREA, which is supposed to be a sovereign nation INDEPENDENT OF the United States, WHERE Miss Condoleeza would only be a guest, herself; Miss Condoleeza then goes on to tell these Korean internet reporters that this act of brutality that they had just witnessed Miss Condoleeza's thugs committing on this man, TO SUPPRESS FREE SPEECH, WAS IN FACT, DEMOCRACY, GEORGE W. BUSH-STYLE, IN ACTION!

What a JOKE!

"ANY OF YOU KOREANS OUT THERE THINKING CONDOLEEZA RICE AIN'T TOUGHER THAN ANY MAN, OR THAT SHE IS AFRAID TO USE VIOLENCE HERSELF AS A TOOL OF PUBLIC POLICY ON BEHALF OF GEORGE W. BUSH, GUESS AGAIN!"

And here, as a kind of "internet reporter", myself, and one at that who is most definitely interested in TRUE DEMOCRACY, what I would like to ask Miss Condoleeza on behalf of OUR America is WHO POPPED THAT ITALIAN GUY over there in Iraq?

Has anyone figured that out yet, Miss Condoleeza, OR IS IT A NATIONAL SECRET!

And if you are thinking of sending your thugs my way to wrestle me down and MUFFLE me, send a bunch!

And while George W. Bush is risking a massive dislocation of his right arm from over-vigorous and over-zealous "PATTING" of his own self on the back for all the GOOD that he has wrought since he first created the world, what is this that is going on over there in Iraq, BETWEEN BUSH CO.'S CLIENT STATE OF IRAQ, AND BUSH CO.'S CLOSE ALLY, JORDAN?

A lover's spat?

Signs of the famed and fabled PAX BUSHICANA?

Or is it POX BUSHICANA?

Oh, to be an English major!

What a glorious life it would be!

Middle East - AP

"Iraq, Jordan Pull Envoys From Countries"

3 minutes ago

By RAWYA RAGEH, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraq and Jordan engaged in a tit-for-tat withdrawal of ambassadors Sunday in a growing dispute over Shiite Muslim claims that Jordan is failing to block terrorists from entering Iraq, while U.S. forces killed 24 insurgents in a clash south of Baghdad.

An American convoy was traveling through the Salman Pak area, 20 miles southeast of Baghdad, when it was attacked, U.S. officials said.

Six soldiers and seven militants were wounded.

Sunday's diplomatic row erupted even as a Jordanian court sentenced in absentia Iraq's most feared terrorist — who was born in Jordan — to a 15-year prison term.

As news emerged of the largely symbolic sentencing of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, whose whereabouts are unknown, his al-Qaida in Iraq organization claimed responsibility for a suicide bombing that killed a top anti-corruption official in northern Mosul.

Al-Zarqawi already has been sentenced to death twice by Jordan.

Sunday's events capped a week of rising tensions that included a protest in which Shiite demonstrators raised the Iraqi flag over the Jordanian embassy in Baghdad and claims by the Shiite clergy-backed United Iraqi Alliance that Jordan was allowing terrorists to slip into Iraq.

"Iraqis are feeling very bitter over what happened."

"We decided, as the Iraqi government, to recall the Iraqi ambassador from Amman to discuss this," Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari told The Associated Press.

Jordan acted first, when Foreign Minister Hani al-Mulqi announced his charge d'affaires in Baghdad had been recalled to Amman.

"We are hoping that the Iraqi police will devise a plan to protect the embassy," al-Mulqi said.

"Meanwhile, we have asked the charge d'affaires to come back because he was living in the embassy."

He added that other Jordanian diplomats will remain in Baghdad because they do not live in the embassy compound.

Both countries said the officials were being recalled for "consultations," leaving open the possibility for their return.

Shiites began holding protests after the Iraqi government on Monday condemned celebrations allegedly held by the family of a Jordanian man suspected of carrying out a Feb. 28 terrorist attack that killed 125 people in Hillah, 60 miles south of Baghdad.

Nearly all the victims were Shiite police and army recruits.

The Jordanian daily Al-Ghad reported that Raed Mansour al-Banna carried out the attack, the single deadliest of the Iraqi insurgency.

The newspaper later issued a correction, however, saying it was not known where al-Banna carried out an assault.

Al-Banna's family has denied his involvement in the Hillah attack, saying al-Banna carried out a different suicide bombing in Iraq, and Al-Zarqawi's group claimed responsibility for the Hillah bombing.

A military court sentenced al-Zarqawi to 15 years in jail and imprisoned an associate for three years for planning an attack on the Jordanian Embassy, the offices of the Jordanian military attache, and unspecified American targets, all in Iraq.

The two Jordanians allegedly met in Iraq in November 2003 to plan an assault on the embassy after an August bombing of the same building killed 18 people.

Al-Zarqawi has also been accused in the August attack.

The United States has issued a $25 million reward for al-Zarqawi, who was previously sentenced to death twice in Jordan: once for the Oct. 28, 2002, killing of U.S. diplomat Laurence Foley, and again for planning to attack U.S. and Israeli targets during 1999 New Year's celebrations in the kingdom.

Also Sunday, in Iraq's north, a suicide bomber blew himself up inside a government compound in Mosul, killing himself and Walid Kashmoula, the head of the Iraqi police anti-corruption department, officials said.

Three others were injured.

Al-Qaida in Iraq claimed responsibility for the attack.

"The renegade Walid Kashmoula has been assassinated by a martyrdom operation, thanks to God, and he is the No. 1 American agent in Mosul," Abu Maysara al-Iraqi, the group's designated "media coordinator," purportedly said in a message posted on an extremist Islamic Web site.

In other violence Sunday:

_ A homemade bomb exploded near the northern city of Kirkuk, killing a U.S. soldier and injuring three others, the U.S. military said in a statement.

At least 1,520 members of the U.S. military have died since the beginning of the Iraq war, according to an Associated Press count.

_ In Samarra, 60 miles north of Baghdad, militants jumped out of their car and opened fire on a policeman walking to work, police Maj. Sadoun Ahmed said.

Police who went to collect the man's body also came under attack, prompting a gunfight that left three police and three of the attackers injured.

Lt. Qassim Mohammed said the injured assailants were captured.

_ In the southern city of Basra, attackers targeted a police patrol with a roadside bomb, killing one civilian and injuring a policeman, police Col. Karim al-Zeidi said.

_ Insurgents lobbed mortar rounds into a neighborhood just outside the walls of an Iraqi army base in Mahmoudiyah, south of Baghdad, killing one civilian and injuring two others, said Ikbal Sabir, an official at the Yarmouk Hospital where the victims were taken.

_ At a checkpoint on the outskirts of Baqouba, a car bomb injured 10 Iraqi soldiers and two civilians, police official Ahmed Mohammed said.

The U.S. military said 12 Iraqi soldiers were injured in the blast.

Insurgents followed up the attack with small arms and rocket-propelled grenade-fire, and three insurgents were killed in ensuing clashes, the U.S. military said.
_____

Associated Press reporter Dale Gavlak contributed to this story from Amman, Jordan.

And what other REWARDS is the alleged "famed" and "fabled" POX BUSHICANA reaping for OUR America?

Or in other words, CAN TOO MUCH OF GEORGE W. BUSH AND HIS really be quite enough, and too much at that, at least to some people out there in the world, in their own countries, INDEPENDENT OF GEORGE W. BUSH'S MURIKA, with their own right to an independent opinion of what the continued reign of George W. Bush in the Middle East means to them?

Let us look and see, as they say:

Middle East - AP

"Anti-Western Sentiment on Rise in Qatar"

2 minutes ago

By JIM KRANE, Associated Press Writer

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates - Qatar and other energy-rich countries of the Persian Gulf are some of the most crime-free places on Earth and among the most friendly to U.S. interests.

Even so, anti-Western feelings are on the rise, and with a Saudi crackdown on terror pushing militants into neighboring countries, observers say the Gulf states must act fast to prevent more bombings like Saturday's theater blast in Doha to halt serious damage to the region's appeal to Western tourists, residents and business.

"If the Qataris can dismantle this cell quickly and prove they are effective, I don't think this will have a great impact on expatriates or tourism," said Mustafa Alani, a terrorism analyst at the Gulf Research Center in Dubai.

But if the investigation founders or if attackers strike again soon, "this will undermine credibility."

"A lot of people will hesitate to come to the Gulf," Alani said.

A Briton, Jonathan Adams, was killed in the suicide car bombing Saturday night.

A dozen others, including six Qataris, a Briton, an Eritrean and a Somali, were injured, Qatari officials said.

Qatari authorities identified the charred body of a suicide bomber inside the vehicle as Omar Ahmed Abdullah Ali, an Egyptian computer programmer and father of two.

The officials said he detonated his explosives-packed car behind the Doha Players Theater during a production of Shakespeare's "Twelfth Night."

Even as an investigation begins, with British and French authorities helping, the attack has brought normally bucolic Qatar into an unappealing club.

Now, only one of the six Gulf Cooperation Council states — the United Arab Emirates — has yet to experience attacks or public crackdowns after thwarted terror plots.

"This will be psychologically unnerving for many people."

"It shows a serious threat to countries traditionally thought of as safe," Kevin Rosser, an analyst with Control Risks Group, told Dow Jones Newswires.

Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of Osama bin Laden, has implemented a tough crackdown after suffering terrorist bombings and gunbattles for almost a decade, pushing militants into neighboring countries, including Kuwait, where police have fought running street battles with fundamentalist outlaws.

Oman rounded up dozens of suspects this year after uncovering a bomb plot.

Bahrain late last year tried a group of men for plotting attacks and having contacts with foreign terrorist groups.

Saturday's bombing in Doha showed the infection of violence has spread there, too.

The blast erupted on the second anniversary of the start of the U.S.-led war in Iraq.

Many believe it was launched at the behest of Saleh al-Aoofi, al-Qaida's leader in the Gulf, who urged militants last week to attack "crusaders" throughout the Gulf, including Qatar.

"These groups want to show they can attack any target in any state," Alani said.

"They've proved they have sleeping cells in these countries and they can activate them when they want."

Anti-American sentiment — mainly against U.S. foreign policy — is strong in close-knit Qatar, best known as the home of Al-Jazeera TV and the forward headquarters of the U.S. military's Central Command.

But the bombing of a theater packed with civilians, next to a school, may have backfired, undercutting support for anti-Western militants.

"The majority of Qataris sympathize with the fundamentalist movement, including me," said Najeeb al-Nauimi, a prominent lawyer.

"But this incident will make us change our minds."

Al-Nauimi said his two sons, ages 9 and 12, boycott American restaurants like McDonald's and Pizza Hut.

And, like millions of others in the region, they back bin Laden's battle against U.S. support for Israel and its invasion of Iraq.

But on Sunday, al-Nauimi took his sons to see the theater destroyed in the bombing the day before.

"These people are criminals," al-Nauimi quoted one son as saying.

Al-Nauimi said an attack on a different target, such as the giant U.S. al-Udeid air base in the Gulf state, probably would not have provoked an outcry.

"People would say, 'Ah, the Americans have been attacked.'"

"They won't condemn it," he said.

In November 2001, a Qatari was killed after he fired a Kalashnikov at the U.S. base.

"Everyone called him a martyr," al-Nauimi said.

"They said he will go to heaven."

"But this guy who died in front of the school, he will go to hell."

What's more, the blast could damage Qatar's efforts to build beach resorts and hotels catering to foreigners, diversifying an economy based on its vast reserves of natural gas, said Youssef M. Ibrahim, an oil and political risk analyst who heads Dubai-based Strategic Energy Investment Group.

"If you're an expatriate firm putting people here, you need to factor into your decision the fact that your employees are at risk," Ibrahim said.

"That means money: more insurance, more spending on security, more security staff."

CONTROL RISKS GROUP IN IRAQ

http://www.crg.com

Control Risks Group has established a project office in Iraq to assist organisations operating or planning to operate in the country.

Its presence means that we are well placed to provide accurate, up-to-date information on the situation in-country and are available to help clients to understand the uncertainties and volatility that affect activities in the region, to mitigate the risks involved and to successfully manage the security of their assets and staff.

We are currently providing project security management services in Iraq for a number of government departments, companies and NGOs, and have security managers permanently deployed in Iraq for these clients.

Our office has been set up to co-ordinate these activities and provide on-the-ground advice.

Our presence in Iraq and our expertise in all areas of risk management mean that Control Risks can provide a range of services for any company operating or planning to operate in Iraq:

Project risk assessment:

to assess the level and nature of security and political risks to personnel, assets and operations, and to offer advice on appropriate risk mitigation strategies.

These assessments are customised to the specific requirements of the task and take into account regional variations in the security situation and differences in the nature of the risk.

- Contact iapworldwide@control-risks.com

Project security management:

to provide on-the-ground security management and protection for personnel, facilities and operations.

Control Risks’ security consultants plan and implement security procedures and tasks:

* including security audits;

* collecting essential local information;

* co-ordinating with the coalition administration;

* managing VIP close protection; and

* providing secure travel, communications, local guard force supervision and ‘meet-and-greet’ services.

- Contact iapworldwide@control-risks.com

Monitoring and advice services:

to assist corporate-level security managers and strategic planners in monitoring the situation and responding to developments on the ground.

Control Risks’ online Country Risk Forecast (CRF) service provides analysis and interpretation of events on the ground in Iraq and other countries, and is updated each working day.

CR24, our 24-hour operations centre, provides immediate advice and support for security managers.

- Contact enquiries@control-risks.com

Corporate investigations:

to enable companies to make informed decisions about establishing relationships with local Iraqi partners.

Due diligence on such partnerships is necessary to ensure that proposed local contractors are legitimate and have the necessary local contacts to ensure a smooth working relationship.

- Contact investigations@control-risks.com

Contingency planning and training:

to provide companies operating in difficult and dangerous areas with reviews of existing plans against new threats and with the development of new plans:

* including business continuity;

* medical and emergency evacuation planning;

* executive ‘buy-in’ seminars on the risks of doing business in Iraq; and

* exercises for new country management teams prior to, or immediately after, entry.

- Contact crisis_management@control-risks.com

Governance and integrity services:

to provide governments and international organisations with the capability to implement medium to long term sustainable programmes to construct transparent, accountable and effective central government functions, especially in the areas of national security, law enforcement and national policy development and oversight.

The division also advises on anti-corruption strategies to governments and corporate clients.

- Contact response2@control-risks.com

To contact our Iraq office, email cmiraq@control-risks.com

end quotes

SO!

If I have this right, continuing unrest in the Middle East, like this Qatar "bombing" above here that this security analyst fellow from this Control Risks Group is talking about, why, that continued unrest is just damn good for the security business over there, and well, that just has to be good for OUR America, doesn't it?

Or does it?

What say you, Mr. Kevin Rosser?

Got another money-maker for you security boys on the line here, thanks to that ALLEGED Egyptian guy and his alleged bombing of that movie theater over there in Doha, Qatar?

Looks it to me, anyway, but what the hey, what can I possibly know about such things?

You guys are the real experts on that kind of stuff, after all, WHICH IS WHY I AM ASKING YOU?

SO?

Is it a money maker, then?

Bombing gonna be just good for the bottom line, eh?

And here is someone from the fabulous Bush Co.'s that we really haven't heard much from lately and that is Saddam Hussein and Tariq Aziz's once best friend and buddie, none other than the inestimable Mr. Donald Rumsfeld, himself, the TRANSFORMER of OUR military into something largely unrecognizable to me!

And what does America's Donald have to say to us today?

Listen up, give the man room, let him speak his piece freely!

Thank you, America, and the candid world as well!

And now, without further ado, here's OUR Donald, and what?

What this he is saying, here?

HARK:

White House - AP Cabinet & State

"Rumsfeld Laments Iraq Invasion Restriction"

30 minutes ago

By SIOBHAN McDONOUGH, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - The level of insurgency in postwar Iraq wouldn't be so high if the U.S.-led coalition had been able to invade from the north, through Turkey, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said Sunday.

Rumsfeld told "Fox News Sunday" that if the United States had able to get its 4th Infantry Division into northern Iraq through Turkey, more of Saddam's Baathist regime would have been captured or killed, diminishing the insurgency.

U.S. forces had to enter Iraq from the south, so by the time Baghdad was taken, much of Saddam's military and intelligence services had dissipated into the northern cities, Rumsfeld said.

"They're still, in a number of instances, still active," he said.

As Iraqi security forces develop, Rumsfeld said, they will take increasing responsibility and the insurgency will diminish over time.

He estimated current Iraqi security forces at over 145,000.

U.S. forces in Iraq are being reduced from 153,000 to 137,000 or 140,000, Rumsfeld said, although it's possible more security will have to be put into place when new elections take place next year.

Rumsfeld told ABC's "This Week" that at least 30 projects are under way to reduce stress on U.S. forces.

For example, he said, a new national security personnel system allows for the use of fewer military people in civilian positions, and the Pentagon is rebalancing the active force with the reserve component.

"So far, we've only used in Iraq and Afghanistan something like 40 percent of the Guard and Reserve," he said.

"It's not like everything's been used up."

Gen. Richard B. Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told NBC's "Meet the Press" that the all-volunteer force is "working marvelously."

"I've served in the draft force, I've served in the volunteer force," he said.

"The American public should not be at all confused about the volunteer force and how well it's performed."

On Fox, Rumsfeld defended his "old Europe" characterization of nations such as France and Germany that opposed U.S. policy in Iraq.

"That's not haunting me," he said.

"I don't think it was a stunning comment, and it certainly wasn't in any way denigrating anything."

And for everyone who might not know or cannot recall what Donald Rumsfeld is talking about with respect to this fiasco of the 4th Infantry Division having to sit out in the Mediterranean Sea on ships, off the coast of Turkey, at a cost to US of several millions of dollars per day, and then finally to have to set sail for some other port of debarkation, OTHER THAN TURKEY, so that they could finally get into action in George W. Bush's HOLY WAR of aggression to take over by military force the oil fields of Iraq, thanks to botched-up planning in the matter by the fabulous Bush Co.'s, we have this following refresher in the matter, for your information:

"U.S., Turkey at Odds on Troops in N. Iraq"

ABC News

03-24-03

In front of a map of Cyprus, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan attends a meeting with President Necdet Sezer in Ankara Monday, March 24, 2003.

Despite warnings from the United States and other NATO allies, Erdogan said Sunday his government was seeking to send troops into northern Iraq to prevent instability at the Turkish-Iraqi border. (AP Photo/Burhan Ozbilici)

ISTANBUL, Turkey March 24 — A U.S. special envoy rushed back to Turkey but failed to reach agreement Monday on Turkey's plans to send troops into northern Iraq.

Fearing friendly fire incidents with U.S. forces and clashes with Iraqi Kurds, the United States opposes Turkish intervention.

President Bush said Sunday his administration had made clear that it expected the Turks to keep out of northern Iraq.

U.S. envoy Zalmay Khalilzad, who was accompanied by U.S. Ambassador Robert Pearson and American military officials in his meetings with Turkish leaders, said afterward that no agreement had been reached.

He pledged to hold more talks Tuesday.

Opposition to a Turkish intervention increased Monday with Germany and Belgium announcing that a Turkish incursion could force NATO to review its mission to boost the country's defenses against a possible Iraqi attack.

The countries said such a move would compromise the defensive basis of NATO's deployment of AWACS surveillance planes and other specialist units to Turkey.

The European Union also warned Turkey against entering northern Iraq.

Such a move could hurt Ankara's candidacy to join the union.

Even so, Turkey's Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan discussed a possible Turkish intervention Monday with the country's military leader, Gen. Hilmi Ozkok.

"The Turkish armed forces have made certain plans and preparations in this matter."

"When the right time and place comes, the necessary decisions will be made and put into effect," Ozkok said after the meeting.

Turkey has had several thousands of troops in northern Iraq since the late 1990s, but wants to beef up its military presence there to prevent a massive refugee flow from Iraq.

Up to 750,000 Iraqi Kurds fled to Turkey during the 1991 Gulf War.

Turkey also fears that the fall of Saddam Hussein could lead to the creation of an independent Kurdish state in Iraq.

That, in turn, could boost the aspirations of Turkey's Kurdish rebels, who fought a 15-year war for autonomy in southeastern Turkey.

Iraqi Kurdish forces have warned of clashes if Turkey sends in troops.

Safeen Dizayee, an official of the Kurdistan Democratic Party, which controls part of northern Iraq, said Monday that even if Turkey and the United States agreed on an increased Turkish military presence in northern Iraq, that deal would not be binding on the Iraqi Kurds.

The U.S.-Turkish talks come as relations between the NATO allies have been strained over Turkey's refusal to allow 62,000 U.S. combat troops to use Turkey as a staging ground to open a northern front against Iraq.

Despite overwhelming popular opposition to the war, Turkey has allowed the United States to use its airspace to bomb Iraq and fly troops into northern Iraq.

State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said the two sides were discussing ways to prevent refugee flows and terrorism and ensure humanitarian aid so the Turks won't feel compelled to enter northern Iraq.

"We believe strongly the current circumstances do not warrant any intervention by Turkish forces, and we expect all parties involved to be responsive to our concerns," Boucher said.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/874536/posts

And here is another view of the "up-coming" 4th Infantry Division debacle that Donald Rumsfeld "LAMENTS" above, which debacle occurred on his watch, this one from February of 2003, BEFORE the fiasco with Turkey involving the 4th Infantry Division became imminent, and caused the 4th Infantry Division to have to sail for another port of debarkation into Iraq, other than Turkey:

"Iraqi rebels join US invasion forces"

The Scotsman

Sat 15 Feb 2003

TIM RIPLEY

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/843783/posts

REBEL Iraqi troops will join the US invasion force in any bid to free their nation from Saddam Hussein.

Some 3,000 have been trained by the US army’s European Command in Hungary to work with American troops.

In spite of press speculation in Washington that troops will soon stage lightning strikes into Iraq, it looks more likely that the experience of the US’s top Middle East commander, General Tommy Franks, in Afghanistan will lead him to use psychological warfare and special forces first to try to pry the Iraqi army away from the Saddam loyalists in the Republican Guard.

A radio station is now calling on Iraqi troops to disobey Saddam’s orders and for the Baghdad regime to be overthrown.

Millions of leaflets are being dropped over southern Iraq to reinforce this message.

In the wake of this propaganda effort, US special forces and British Special Air Service teams are reported to be operating along the fringes of Iraq’s borders.

The main focus of this effort is in the Kurdish safe haven in northern Iraq where special forces liaison teams are now working with rebel groups and tribal chiefs.

The Kurdish KDP and PUK are the main points of contact for the western forces, although rebel Iraqi officers are also receiving help to set up bases in the liberated zones.

By the end of the month General Franks is expected to be installed in his forward command post in Qatar.

He will arrive to find a military force ready for invasion.

The bulk of the 70,000 ground troops ordered to the Middle East just after Christmas are already in place in Kuwait or on ships in the Gulf.

A second army of more than 80,000 US and British combat troops will be in place by early March.

Hundreds of extra fighter jets, attack helicopters and scores of warships, manned by 80,000 sailors and airmen, have also arrived in the past three weeks, enabling Franks to begin an offensive by the end of the month.

For US commanders the most dangerous phase has already passed.

The nightmare scenario for battle planners was a surprise Iraqi attack.

Apart from a half-hearted attempt to move an Ababil-100 missile battery near to Kuwait earlier this week, the Iraqis have so far not tried to pre-empt the US deployment.

Genral Franks can now count on a full army division of 20,000 men in Kuwait, backed up by the 30,000 strong 1st Marine Division.

They muster nearly 400 M1A1 Abrams tanks and thousands of other armoured vehicles.

He also has an attack helicopter brigade with some 60 AH-64 Apache gunships armed with Hellfire missiles and a transport helicopter brigade with giant Chinooks.

The Marines also have almost 100 attack helicopters, backed by Harrier jump jets and F/A-18 Hornet strike jets.

Britain’s carrier HMS Ark Royal and the helicopter carrier HMS Ocean are now in the Gulf, poised to land the 4,000 Royal Marines of 3 Commando Brigade in Kuwait or southern Iraq by helicopter.

Air power in the region has been boosted to almost 500 combat and 150 support aircraft and by the arrival of USAF F-117 stealth bombers and two additional US Navy aircraft carriers.

The first of the RAF’s additional Tornado GR4 bombers left their bases in Britain earlier this week, and by the time the USAF and RAF build-up is complete in the next week, some 700 US and British strike aircraft will be in place.

The final pieces in the commanders’ jigsaw will fall into place over the next two to three weeks when the 120 Challenger 2 tanks of Britain’s 7th Armoured Brigade begin to arrive in Kuwait.

Turkey looks set to allow 37,000 soldiers of the US 4th Infantry Division to start moving to northern Iraq and the first airborne forces will be positioned within striking range of Baghdad.

A brigade of paratroopers the US 82nd Airborne Division is in the process of setting up a base at a "secret" location in the Middle East and Britain’s 16th Air Assault Brigade has also started to move to the region.

The location of these two units’ bases is being kept a closely guarded secret to ensure they have the element of surprise when they are launched into action.

Some 270 helicopters of the US’s elite 101st Airborne Division are being shipped this weekend and will not be ready for action in the Middle East for at least three weeks.

General Franks might want to wait until it is ready to strike, but he could be planning to feed it in to replace tired front-line units as the battle unfolds.

The first and crucial phase of Franks’ battle plan is already unfolding.

This is the neutralisation of key Iraqi air defence sites to ensure the USAF has air supremacy.

Almost daily air strikes under the guise of enforcing the no-fly zones are hitting Iraq’s air defence command hard.

And since we are on this subject of the LAMENTATIONS of Mr. Donald Rumsfeld over what could possibly be called the incompetence of the fabulous Bush Co.'s in general, we have this view on Turkey's refusal to allow the 4th Infantry Division to debark in that country from the perspective of Mr. Eric Margolis, an Award winning author, columnist, and broadcaster who has covered 14 wars and is a leading authority on military affairs, the Middle East, South Asia, and Islamic movements:

http://www.ericmargolis.com/archives/2003/03/index.php

Posted by eric.margolis at 10:55 PM, March 10, 2003

"FRANCE IS RIGHT AND THE US OWES IT AN APOLOGY"

Miami - Watching American TV can be a surreal experience.

Sandwiched between ads for instant weight loss products, predigested fast food, and incontinence panties, cable TV commentators bay like rabid dogs for war against Iraq, and subject nations daring to oppose President Bush’s crusade to venomous abuse or sneering disdain.

France, which speaks with the strongest, most logical voice of those opposing war, has become the special target of vituperation and hatred in American’s leading neo-conservative media - Fox TV, Wall Street Journal, National Review, New York Post - and the Bush Administration’s special bete noire.

Particularly so, now that France and Russia vow to veto US attempts to ram a war-enabling resolution through the UN Security Council

France, many Americans claim, should do whatever Washington orders out of gratitude for US ‘saving’ it in two world wars.

US TV features angry veterans standing in American military cemeteries in Normandy, denouncing France for ‘stabbing America in the back’ - as if invading Iraq to grab its oil and crushing Israel’s enemies had anything to do with World War II.

I happen to be a US Army vet and member of the American Legion who thinks France is doing exactly the right thing.

Few flag-waving pundits mention America sat out almost 40% of WWII until attacked by Japan.

In 1940, the German armed forces were the equivalent of the US armed forces today - a full military generation ahead of all other nations.

France’s entire army was destroyed in battle by the invincible Germans; had the US fought Germany in 1940, it too would have been routed.

The Soviet Union, not the US, defeated Germany, destroying over 100 Nazi divisions.

So enough with all the bombast about World War II.

In the eyes of Europeans and most of the world, George Bush’s administration looks dangerously aggressive, dominated as it is by petrohawks and neo-conservative ideologues linked to Israel’s far right.

These little Mussolinis have no time for diplomacy or multi-nationalism.

No wonder a recent Pew Research poll found that formerly favorable ratings of the US have plummeted in 19 of 27 nations surveyed.

It seems at times that President Bush is even more eager to bomb Paris than Baghdad.

In fact, the Administration has been treating France like an enemy, rather than America’s oldest ally and intimate friend.

Neo-conservatives even accuse France of anti-Semitism, a disgusting slander.

Far from being an enemy, France has been doing what a true good friend should do: telling Washington its policy is wrong and dangerous, unlike the handkissing leaders of Britain, Spain and Italy, who crave Bush’s political support, or the East European coalition of the shilling, ex-communist politicians pandering to Washington for cash.

Seventy percent of British, and 90% of Italians and Spaniards oppose Bush’s crusade.

France’s President Jacques Chirac speaks for an overwhelming majority of Europeans and, indeed, the world’s people, in urging the US to opt for diplomacy and UN inspections over a war that will not be worth the loss of a single American soldier, not to mention tens of thousands of Iraqis and chaos across Mesopotamia.

So, too, warns the great and wise Pope, John Paul II.

The contrast between France’s reasoned diplomatic response and Bush’s belligerent behavior could not be more stark.

As is the dignified, logical tone set by President Chirac and Foreign Minister Dominique de Villlepin compared to the bullying, low-brow, locker-room talk issuing from the White House that has seriously damaged America’s reputation and image around the globe.

This does not mean France will not join the oil-rush to plunder Iraq when the US invasion appears inevitable, simply that wiser heads in Paris realize that war is the worst solution to the now minor problem of Iraq.

This week Turkey’s new parliament, chosen in the first truly democratic election in memory, followed Europe, courageously rejecting Washington’s bribes and demands US ground forces be allowed to attack Iraq from Turkish territory.

Washington’s churlish response - withdrawing its bribes, threatening punishment - contrasted curiously to Bush’s claims his goal in Iraq is bringing democracy to the Mideast.

Democracy, its seems, is fine so long as it does US bidding.

Inconveniently, Turkey’s people and democratic government voted a resounding no to war.

How long the Turks can resist intense pressure from the US and its allies, Turkey’s hardline generals, remains to be seen.

Bush’s crusade against Iraq will go on with or without Turkey.

The war will be akin to throwing a grenade into a huge hornet’s nest.

France, which lives next to the Arab World and has 5 million Muslim citizens, warns an invasion and occupation of Iraq will roil the entire region, spark more terrorism, and hit Europe with a dangerous backblast.

But Bush couldn’t care less, as he would say.

While Bush prepares war against demolished Iraq, he is ducking the surging nuclear confrontation with North Korea, which, unlike Iraq, truly threatens North America.

His outrageous dereliction of duty over Korea, obsessive warmongering against Iraq, crude, aggressive behavior worthy of Leonid Brezhnev’s Soviet Union, threats against the UN, US $400 billion deficit that will infect the world with inflation, and damage to America’s reputation - such are Bush’s ‘accomplishments’ to date.

Who needs enemies with world-class blunderers like this in charge?

Bush’s tirade against Iraq last Thursday simply confirmed that the US military is an army of lions, led by asses.

America’s friends and neighbors, led by France, the mother of diplomacy, rightly warn the steroidal Bush Administration to halt its rush to war.

President Chirac and Foreign Minister de Villepin deserve the Noble Peace Prize.

Americans owe France an apology, and a hearty ‘merci.’

241 U.S. Marines killed in their barracks !

When did this happen?

Where?

How?

Why?

Questions that need answers.

241 Marines were killed on October 23, 1983.

This tragedy took place in Beirut, Lebanon.

A truck packed with explosives, driven by a suicide bomber drove into the marine barracks at the Beirut Airport.

And the big question -- WHY?

To fully understand the answer to that , one would have to know just what the civil war in Lebanon was all about. That was a long and brutal civil war.

It lasted 15 years from 1975 until 1990.

Unlike the civil wars that we are accustomed to hearing about, which usually are between two warring factions, primarily the party in power and the opposition, this civil war encompassed several parties.

To even make a start in explaining all the twists and turns of this war would take much more time and space than we have here. Nor is this the proper venue for that explanation.

Perhaps on another thread at another time.

What we are interested in now is why these marines were killed.

In fact, why were they even in Lebanon in 1983.

There were many players in Lebanon during that time. All of them had their own reason for being there. They each had an AGENDA which suited their purpose.

Who were these players?

Syria - Israel - Russia - Iran - The United States.

Since this thread is about OUR AMERICA that is the player we are concerned about.

First, a bit of history.

1n 1958, Lebanon had been an independent nation for just 15 years.

At Lebanon’s request, to help with internal problems, President Eisenhower sent 14,000 marines to Lebanon who stayed for 3 months.
During that time there was a total of one American fatality.

This set two precedents. To the U.S. it meant that the U.S. could repeat this at another time for a reasonable cost in money, time, lives, and prestige.

To the Lebanese and others of the region, it meant that the U. S. could be counted on to maintain order and solve problems.

The United States failed to recognize there was a huge difference between the Lebanon of 1958 and the Lebanon of the early 1980’s.

Some of the differences: Syrian troops were in Lebanon. An Israel invasion of Lebanon was under way. Palestinian fighters were active in Lebanon. There were several Lebanese factions heavily armed and dangerous, each with their own purpose and goal.

Two other big problems

There was no clear policy as to why we were there, no clear mission statement was made. It was sort of a play it by ear enterprise.

The other problem: The three main American players involved had different ideas on how to go about doing our thing , using our power. These three players were : 1. Sec’y. of State, George Shultz
2. Secretary of Defense, Caspar Weinberger - 3. National Security Advisor. Robert MacFarlane.

Once again, because of space limitations, much of the detail has to be omitted from this narration.

To go right to the point of why our marines were slaughtered, which is what really happened to them, the perception of one of the warring factions which was the Shi’ite Muslims, was that the U.S. was there to help the Maronite Christians, who were the ruling class at the time. This was an accurate conclusion on their part.

In September of 1983, the U. S. battleship, New Jersey, took an off shore position and with its 16-inch guns shelled the position of a number of Shi’ite troops in the Chouf Mountains. ( For the benefit of those who do know what a 16 inch gun means - the 16 inches refers to the width of the artillery shell., not the length. That is one big piece of ammunition. )

In retribution, a Shi’ite militia ( Hizbullah is universally considered to be the perpetrator ) blew up the Marine barracks.

In reading back through this, I have to admit I see a huge amount of over simplification.

As I mentioned, space limitations are the reason.

Perhaps at another time, I could provide specifics.

For sure, this tragedy was caused by, poor planning, lack of clear policy, bickering among the higher ups in Washington, negligent security measures and a whole lot of wishful thinking by our leaders who assumed that just by being there we could intimidate the opposing fighters.

Did someone say " Just like Iraq? "

A.B.

Yes, and there were more than 300,000 Palestinian fighters, AKA Arafat's rag-tag PLO faction, freshly evicted from Jordan by King Hussein (whom Arafat tried to overthrow).

I hate to keep harping on Arafat, except that, in looking back, he was DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for a lot of needless killing.

And if the subject is really going to be tallying up a scorecard with respect to who is really the most responsible for the most "needless killing" in this world of OURS, then we will have a lot of competition, here.

Arafat MAY have been responsible for a lot of needless killing, but then, of course, other TOP CONTENDERS for that TITLE would of necessity have to include Ariel Sharon, and certainly, George W. Bush, and well, let's see, there certainly is Lyndon Baines Johnson, and ........

Oh, yeah, Hitler and Stalin certainly would have to be on that list as well.

And then, of course, there is Tamerlane, although some would argue that he engaged in "needed killing", as opposed to "needless killing", so maybe not Tamerlane ......

And that is the trouble with compiling such a list, it uses up a lot of time and space that could be used differently, and when we are talking about the past, as is the case now with Arafat, what purpose is served?

To continue to vilify and demonize him?

For what?

A continuing argument about the real "racial superiority" in the Middle East?

"God's Chosen" versus everyone else, and the rest of us have to take sides, or else?

Well, not me!

Not in that "debate", at all!

I just have this funny thing about being told who I have to love, and who I am supposed to hate!

Old-fashioned, I guess, me!

And don't forget, jeffmoskin, that when it comes to "rag-tag", that is THE description which fits OUR own Continental Army and militias at the time of OUR Revolution against the tyranny and despotism of England and its fat king, George III.

And with respect to King Hussein of Jordan, he really means nothing whatsoever to me, as I am not Jordanian, and I really don't recognize kings as being other than people with a fancy title.

I certainly don't hate or belittle them for carrying the title of "KING", but as it means nothing to me, I also don't worship either them, OR WHAT IS PERCEIVED BY THEM TO BE SOME KIND OF "RIGHT" TO RULE, regardless!

That would be a real backward step for any American to take, is what I think, paying homage to a despotic or tyrannical king anywhere in the world, including Washington, D$C$.

And as to Arafat and Jordan, I have no real idea at all about what Yassir Arafat might have been doing in Jordan, and if he got tossed out, well, I guess there are at least fifty to ten thousand different assumptions that can be drawn from that, depending, and I am not going to speculate myself, especially as I have no stake in what that dispute, if it was one, was really all about.

History tells us that some kings apparently needed to be tossed down, and maybe Hussein was one of those, BUT .....

I just don't know, and I do know that there will be hundreds of opinions about that, most of them emotional, and so, I just don't go there, nor do I invite the argument, because that is all it ever can be, just like who is the best team in the AFL, or who has the best NASCAR team.

And so ......

And here, I want to take a moment to again re-iterate what this thread is all about, which is LIFE, here in OUR America.

This thread started right after the November 2004 elections, with the premise, straight from the news, along with THEIR statistics, that OUR America was in fact a divided nation.

Now, with a "melting pot" nation such as America is, that should come as no surprise, and in many ways, it did not, and had it been that alone, that we are "divided" because of ethnic and cultural values, or divided over who really IS the very best team in the AFL, or NFL, then I would not have bothered to even come in here to have a thread at all, because what is the sense in having a daily argument that is based on emotion without substance?

Since it is done all over America, arguing about the AFL versus the NFL, I suppose that there must be some purpose to it, but whatever that purpose might be, IT IS NOT MINE!

My "purpose", if indeed I have one, is different, and it comes from the words above here of Mr. Thomas Paine, and it carries forward through the Declaration of Independence, if anyone really knows what I am referring to, there, and then it comes forward through the United States Constitution, and in MY case, the New York State Constitution, and finally, it comes down to right now, and the QUESTION OF IMPOSED CLASS, here in OUR America, where "CLASS" is not supposed to matter, as this is supposed to be a REPUBLIC, and not some type of fascist state, or communist worker's paradise, or whatever.

Which is not to say that people can't believe in fascist states, or communist worker's paradises, if such a thing can ever really exist outside of the warped and twisted mind of a European city-dweller in some other century arising out of alleged "social" conditions that he perceived IN THAT PLACE, and here, of course, I mean Marx, himself, and all that intellectual gobble-de-gook about the "DIALECTIC" that he was in to spouting in coffee shoppes, or whatever, back in his own time, WHICH IS NOT MY TIME, OR PLACE, AT ALL!

I AM AN AMERICAN!

Always have been, and intend to be, until I can be no more!

The problem, of course, is that my statement about MY being an American is really empty and meaningless rhetoric, OUTSIDE OF WHAT I MAKE IT BE ON A DAILY BASIS, and that is really what this thread is all about!

And I cannot and will not claim exclusivity with respect to what it means to be an American!

"MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY?"

George W. Bush, maybe, but not me!

After all, what makes me "perfect", or "all-knowing", beyond my own ego?

And so, we have "opinions" in here, because we are not "perfect" and all knowing, and there enters the need for "balance", which I guess falls to me, since this is "my" thread, if such a thing can really be said.

The issue of "balance" is really, "WHAT DOES WHAT WE ARE DISCUSSING HAVE TO DO WITH OUR UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION", or the concept of "DEMOCRACY", which I believe George W. Bush and his are making a complete and total mockery of, BY THEIR WORDS AND ACTIONS, not only here, but across the world as well, and so .....

We endeavor to persevere, AND UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER, all at the same time!

As Mr. A.B. says, there are some subjects WHICH REALLY DO NEED TO BE DISCUSSED, and so, sometimes should be the subject or topic of a "spin-off", which has happened many times in here, and even back in the John Kerry Forum before this, where, for example, there was a thread on the "Armenian Genocide" as a single topic of discussion.

Maybe there is a need for a thread on Yassir Arafat, or Lebanon, and its rich and diverse history, and so, those threads will arise, in my belief system, if they are needed or desired or warranted by circumstances.

In here, however, to dwell on the impacts of the unique "Druze" religion on the acendency of the Maronite Christian religion to a place of political power or prominence in the 20th Century in Lebanon, would really cause this thread to become so confused as to be totally indecipherable, and so, while I am interested myself in the Druze religion, as it is unique, I don't take the time in here to talk about it, AS IT DOES NOT IN ANY WAY THAT I CAN NOW PERCEIVE, THREATEN OUR UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION!

Nor does the Druze religion seem to cause us to be divided as Americans, while George W. Bush's HOLY WAR in the Middle East certainly does, at least in my own view of the subject, AS AN OLDER AMERICAN!

And so, back to balance.

What is it?

Who has it?

And why?

SO!

Stay tuned!

In this corner, in the white trunks, we have jeffmoskin, from sunny California, weighing in at ........

And in this other corner, weighing in at ..., we have Mr. A.B., in the greyish hair and beard ....

And over here, of course, there is me ....

And then since we can have as many corners in here as we want, there is the candid world as well!

Now, at the sound of the bell, gentlemen, and ladies, too, come out and ......

And what is an example of "imposed class" here in OUR America, then, that I personally might be concerned about, as causing us to be divided, or that I think might pose a threat to "OUR" rights, under law, or the Constitution?

Well, hhhhmmmmm!

How about this?

U.S. National - AP

"GOP Governors Cut State Workers' Rights"

Mon Mar 21, 2:49 AM ET

By ROBERT TANNER, AP National Writer

Republican governors in a few spots across the country are angering state employees by removing one of organized labor's strongest tools — the right to collective bargaining.

Governors in three states who've taken the step say it's about making government more efficient or being fair to non-union workers.

Critics say it's political payback for labor's traditional support of Democrats and part of a wider shift to undermine workers in favor of big business.

Within hours or days of taking office this year, Mitch Daniels in Indiana and Matt Blunt in Missouri eliminated collective bargaining agreements for state employees, affecting about 50,000 workers.

Kentucky Gov. Ernie Fletcher did the same when he took office in 2003.

In each case, the agreements had only been granted by executive order, not by law.

In Mississippi, where state employees don't have collective bargaining rights, GOP Gov. Haley Barbour supports a legislative effort to eliminate existing civil-service protections.

In Oklahoma, the GOP-controlled state House approved a measure to repeal a law granting collective bargaining to municipal employees.

Blunt said the union rules of the business world should not apply to government.

"Fundamentally, public employees are different than private sector employees — their employer is the people of Missouri," he said on his first day in office.

"Taxpayers should not be bound by collective bargaining agreements."

Union leaders see the actions as concerted effort among new, more conservative leaders, and tie it to President Bush, whose administration exempted some employees from collective bargaining at the Homeland Security Department.

"It's unconscionable."

"This is about the very soul of our movement," said Andy Levin of the AFL-CIO, who said his group will fight the governors' efforts.

"Collective bargaining is how we built the middle class in this country."

Spokesmen for the governors all dismissed any notion that they had acted together, pointing out that each had their own motivation.

None of the governors responded to requests for interviews.

In Missouri, Blunt had fought the unions for years as secretary of state, particularly over bargaining fees charged to state employees who aren't union members, and vowed during the campaign to rescind a 2001 executive order that allowed collective bargaining.

Fletcher spokeswoman Jeanne Lausche in Kentucky said the governor had promised to streamline state government and "ensure that tax dollars are expended in a business-like manner."

Daniels said his decision would allow him to more swiftly improve government services.

After he eliminated collective bargaining, he immediately created a separate, cabinet-level agency to oversee child protection services, a step he said would have been slowed by union negotiations.

The governors' actions come amid a round of soul-searching and turmoil for the nation's labor movement, which has been watching union membership slide in the past few decades, down to 12.5 percent of wage and salary workers in 2004.

Representation among government workers remains labors' strongest base, at 36 percent.

Private industry alone is at 7.9 percent, according to the Labor Department.

The ability to negotiate with employers with the strength that comes from a united group is the basic tool of unions.

But comprehensive bargaining — defined as the ability to bargain over wages, benefits and work conditions — is only allowed in 25 states, according to the AFL-CIO.

The fight is often a seesaw.

In New Mexico, Democratic Gov. Bill Richardson signed a law in 2003 giving bargaining rights to public workers, after years of opposition from former Gov. Gary Johnson, a Republican.

The GOP strategy aims to weaken a foundation of the Democratic party, said Gerald McEntee, president of the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees union, with 1.5 million members.

"I see this as an effort to make the Republican right-wing conservatives the party of the future for a long, long time."

He worried about other efforts by Republican governors that weigh heavily on government workers — Arnold Schwarzenneger's struggle in California over pensions for state workers and Robert Ehrlich's proposal in Maryland to raise state employees' health care costs.

Yet there's no denying that unions have traditionally been more supportive of Democrats than Republicans, said Robert Bruno, an associate professor of labor and industrial relations at the University of Illinois at Chicago.

"It's an easy way to make enemies," he said.

end quotes

Yes it is easy to make enemies!

Up here in the corrupt EMPIRE STATE of New York where I am, if you want to be made an "ENEMY" of the government, try acting with integrity, and demanding that it do the same, the GUMMINT, that is!

And then watch out!

YOU SHALL BE IN THE EXCLUDED CLASS!

And I think that tosses the Constitution right out the window, myself, but what can I possibly know of such things?

After all, I am neither ordained by GOD, or annointed by GOD, as is George W. Bush, and I am not a Republican, and so .......

Back to you, jeffmoskin!

Thanks for giving me a great laugh this morning,Livyjr.

I don't know how big a person jeffmoskin is, but since I weigh in at only 139-140 pounds, I'm sure he is has a bit of a weight advantage on me. Plus - he is 20 years younger - plus I'd rather love than fight - plus since I feel much more friendly to the person in the white trunks than hostile toward him, - for these reasons I do not believe there will be an unfriendly encounter.

Oh yes, one more thing - There is no issue to fight over anyhow.

He has strong feelings toward a certain individual, or should I say against this person which is certainly his right to have. ( I am not mentioning this person's name on this thread anymore ). I do not disagree with him on that either. I just feel there are many others who are as bad or worse.

Some of the these people are in our own government. They're just a bit more polished, which really makes them more dangerous.

As long as I have the floor, let me state that I completely agree with your statement concerning France and Jacques Chirac as stated right below.

It seems at times that President Bush is even more eager to bomb Paris than Baghdad.

In fact, the Administration has been treating France like an enemy, rather than America’s oldest ally and intimate friend.

Neo-conservatives even accuse France of anti-Semitism, a disgusting slander.

Far from being an enemy, France has been doing what a true good friend should do: telling Washington its policy is wrong and dangerous, unlike the handkissing leaders of Britain, Spain and Italy, who crave Bush’s political support, or the East European coalition of the shilling, ex-communist politicians pandering to Washington for cash.

Seventy percent of British, and 90% of Italians and Spaniards oppose Bush’s crusade.

France’s President Jacques Chirac speaks for an overwhelming majority of Europeans and, indeed, the world’s people, in urging the US to opt for diplomacy and UN inspections over a war that will not be worth the loss of a single American soldier, not to mention tens of thousands of Iraqis and chaos across Mesopotamia.

So, too, warns the great and wise Pope, John Paul II.

The contrast between France’s reasoned diplomatic response and Bush’s belligerent behavior could not be more stark.

As is the dignified, logical tone set by President Chirac and Foreign Minister Dominique de Villlepin compared to the bullying, low-brow, locker-room talk issuing from the White House that has seriously damaged America’s reputation and image around the globe.

This does not mean France will not join the oil-rush to plunder Iraq when the US invasion appears inevitable, simply that wiser heads in Paris realize that war is the worst solution to the now minor problem of Iraq.

I was beginning to think I was the only person who felt the way the words above describe the person and the country.

BTW, if I have used up too much space in my previous posting about the 241 marines on the situation in Lebanon, I apologize.

There was no way I felt I could lead up to the actual attack on the marines without providing some background.

Anyhow, we do have plenty of serious, existing problems happening right now, right here in Our America.

None of these problems are insurmountable.

Especially, if we have wise leadership in Washington.

Which we don't.

A.B.

I outweigh you, Mr. A.B.

And that is all I care to say about that.





And let us not forget the Dixie Chicks who also oppose Bush's Crusade.

SO, jeffmoskin, should there be a handicapping factor added in or subtracted out of your score in here, then, to keep things on an even keel?

And is it add weight and divide by age difference?

Or is it that nasty quadratic equation where weight is squared and divided by Pi?

And here, Mr. A.B., I have to say that in all the time that jeffmoskin and I have been conversing in here, we have not had any real disagreements that have caused any "issues" that have been insurmountable in any way that I can discern, and the last thing that I will ever do is stifle jeffmoskin!

He comes into here from HIS background, whatever that may be, and with his point of view intact!

If I recall, jeffmoskin was successfully escaping from New York State the same year that I was graduating from high school, inside of New York State, and jeffmoskin grew up as a young person in New York City, which was the exact opposite of my rural environment to the north of him, and which experience for a young child such as jeffmoskin was, had to be incredible, at least to me, who is from the country!

And that up-bringing surely must shape jeffmoskin in ways that to me are very unique, as my views may also be to him, because of the almost extreme difference in OUR relative environments when young, and in what would be our formative years!

And it is really the differences between jeffmoskin and myself that fuels this discussion is what I think, for interestingly, despite all of our differences, jeffmoskin and I are not all that different at all!

And that is what the discussion in here is really all about, WHO WE ALL ARE AS AMERICANS TODAY!

And so, in here, jeffmoskin is and remains his own man, with respect to who he likes or dislikes, and if it becomes necessary to talk of this one man again, for any reason, I am sure the matter will be dealt with as all others have been in the past, in whatever manner was most appropriate at the time of discussion!

And no apology needed or required, Mr. A.B.!

Recall that the exchanges in here about the Lebanon barracks bombing were started by comments made by New York State Senator Charlie "Chuck" Schumer about the barracks bombing in 1983 that I thought were along the lines of Jingoism and demagoguery, and if Charlie "ChucK" wants to stir up "emotions", then he should know in advance just what those emotions are likely to be, and in my opinion, he does not!

And so, he plays political games with that barracks bombing, and with the lives of those dead Marines, ALL THESE YEARS LATER, when he was never one himself!

To gain political advantage for himself, TODAY, he dredges up ONE MORE TIME this tragedy for those families TWENTY-TWO YEARS AGO, NOW!

And I find that somewhat obscene, myself!

But, of course that is politics, and by the way Charlie "Chuck" plays the "game", this kind of pandering for sympathy is apparently alright!

If Charlie "Chuck" Schumer wants to go to Washington, D$C$, and play at being a United States Senator from the EMPIRE STATE of New York, that is certainly his business, and he is free to go about it, as far as I am concerned, but still that gives him no right to be a Jingoist on my nickel, or a demagogue, as far as that goes, since I believe that I am one of his "constituency", although Charlie "Chuck" does not really seem to represent any of my values as a disabled veteran here in OUR America, especially with regard to integrity of government in the corrupt Empire State, as well as equal protection and due process of law, both in the Empire State, and in OUR America as well, or at least its federal court system in the Northern District of New York, where Charlie "Chuck" is the man, er, Senator!

And speaking of Scrushy, what is he up to, anyway?

Let's look and see:

Business - AP

"HealthSouth Witness: Scrushy a 'King'"

45 minutes ago

By JAY REEVES, Associated Press Writer

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. - A former HealthSouth Corp. finance chief on Monday described ousted CEO Richard Scrushy as a bullying corporate "king" who sweet-talked him into signing false financial statements.

Weston Smith, the fifth and final former HealthSouth CFO to take the stand against Scrushy at his corporate fraud trial, said he planned to quit HealthSouth rather than sign bogus financial statements in 2002 because he was worried about the new Sarbanes-Oxley law, which included long prison terms for corporate fraud.

But in a private meeting, Smith said Scrushy persuaded him to sign the statements by telling him about plans to end the fraud, lower earnings expectations and split HealthSouth into two companies.

"His analogy was that we all rode in together in this pickup truck and we were all going to ride out on it," said Smith, testifying under a plea deal with prosecutors.

Describing an atmosphere of intimidation at HealthSouth, Smith said Scrushy would "humiliate" subordinates who challenged him during meetings.

"He was referred to as the king."

"He made every decision," said Smith.

U.S. District Judge Karon Bowdre upheld a defense objection to Smith's characterization of Scrushy.

But the former executive continued with an unflattering portrayal of his one-time boss, depicting Scrushy as a tyrannical backstabber.

"He did not tolerate people who were not `yes' men."

"If you were not in the room you were a target, because he loved to talk about people behind their back," said Smith.

Like the four CFOs to testify before him, Smith said Scrushy was part of what prosecutors have described as a conspiracy to overstate HealthSouth earnings by some $2.7 billion for seven years beginning in 1996.

They claim Scrushy made millions off the scheme through stock sales, bonuses and salary.

The defense says Scrushy's top aides were behind the fraud and lied to Scrushy for years to cover up its existence so they could earn promotions and raises.

Smith was the first of 15 HealthSouth executives to plead guilty in March 2003, the month after he left the company following 16 years.

He hasn't been sentenced but faces almost $7 million in fines and forfeitures and could be sentenced to at least 10 years in prison.

Scrushy's name often came up in meetings of a group called "the family," which figured out how much the medical services and rehabilitation chain needed to overstate its results to meet Wall Street forecasts, according to Smith.

Members repeatedly asked if Scrushy knew of the overstatement, he said, and Scrushy aide Bill Owens, also a former CFO, told them Scrushy "knows everything that's going on."

Smith testified he "wasn't the least bit surprised" by Owens' remarks because he had discussions with Scrushy as early as 1996 about the company not meeting its goals for collecting cash.

After being chewed out by Scrushy in a large meeting, Smith said he went to Scrushy personally and told him it was a "fantasy" to think HealthSouth could meet its cash projections since net revenues had been overstated.

"His response was, `Hey, I'm setting a tone for the company.'"

"'I know what's going on'."

"'Don't worry about it, just keep doing your job,'" Smith testified.

Owens previously tied Scrushy to the fraud during his testimony, as did former HealthSouth chief financial officers Aaron Beam, Mike Martin and Tadd McVay.

Free on $10 million bond, Scrushy is charged with conspiracy, fraud, money laundering, obstruction of justice and perjury.

He also is accused of false corporate reporting in the first case of a chief executive being charged with violating the Sarbanes-Oxley Act.

Scrushy could received what amounts to a life sentence and have to forfeit as much as $278 million in assets if convicted.

end quotes

Go, Scrushy, go!

And by the way, folks, this is the kind of corporate crap that George W. Bush's plans for OUR Social Security would be financing, with OUR money!

Keep integrity in OUR Social Security System by keeping George W. Bush and HIS OUT of OUR Social Security System!

And Scrushy and his CROWD, as well!

As is often the case with children, they always assume that where they frow up, how their mother and father treat them, how their teachers treat them, how their friends treat them...


Is just like it happens to everybody else.

Kids just never think any differently.

Funny, when I "escaped" as you well put it and went into my first store in the Golden State, here in Kah-lee-FAWN-yah, as the governator would call it, the clerk said, "May I help you?"

Coulda knocked me over with a feather.

WhereIcumfrom, they woulda said, "Hey! Waddyawant?"

It is always hard for me, a country kid, to think about how I would have "grown up" if I had lived in a city!

Guess you just have to experience it to know!

Especially a city as big as New York City is, some 26 miles from top to bottom for Manhatten alone!

The first time that I was in California, outside of passing through on my way back from Viet Nam, which was a short, surreal time, indeed, I was visiting over in the east bay area outside of San Francisco, and as is my habit, I was just out walking around, looking at this or that as it came up, with no real destination in mind, other than gradually "looping" back to where I had started, and in the course of that, I ended up in one place, indecisive as to which way to go, and I was standing on the side of the street, or road, as I call it, looking this way and that, and all of a sudden, cars are stopping, and people in them are all watching me, and of course, I was watching them, and wondering, and it stayed that way, for a bit, EN TABLEAU, as it were, UNTIL I realized that all these people were waiting on me, and so, I waved them all to continue on, as they had been doing, since all I really was doing was standing there and looking around.

When I got back to where I was staying, I remarked on this to the people I was staying with, and they said, "Oh, yeah, out here, cars ACTUALLY stop for you if you are going to cross the street, and seeing you standing there, people would automatically stop, and wait for you to cross!"

And I was amazed at that, quite frankly!

Quite amazed!

And not necessarily at the concept of stopping for a pedestrian, which is unheard of back here in the corrupt Empire State, BUT AT THE COURTESY of people out there, AS IF THEY ACTUALLY RECOGNIZE EACH OTHER AS FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS, AND CARE!

Not a New York STATE OF MIND at all!

And that is quite a sad statement, in and of itself!

Here they would be tallying up how many points a pedestrian on a curb was worth, and likely, they would be aiming to collect those points!

SO!

"WATCH OUT, BUDDY, I'm COMING THROUGH, AND YOU OVER THERE, WAADDAYALOOKINAT!"

To us still stuck here in the corrupt EMPIRE STATE, California IS the land of the free, and much more a home to courtesy and real grass-roots democracy than this place is going to be for quite some time, IF EVER!

Which is why OUR young folks leave, and with OUR blessings!

Get out of this corrupt hell-hole now, while you are young and still can, and DON'T LOOK BACK!

Probably like people in Nazi Germany looking to the free world all around them, and celebrating when one of their own was able to get out and be free, really free, in some other land, although an exile from the land of their birth!

Normally, I try and stay away from stories of personal "tragedy", and the one that comes to mind immediately is this continuing "saga" of Terry Schiavo, where George W. Bush and of all people, Tom "THE ETHICS-CHALLENGED REPUBLICAN MAN" Delay have now involved themselves, because I believe that personal tragedy is just that, personal!

And since I am not a politician out cadging for money, and pandering, and doing the other assorted low things that politicians are wont to do in their quest for ever more money, I have no need to EXLPOIT these human dramas for my own "ENDS", such as Bush Co. and Tom Delay appear to be doing here in this case of Terry Schiavo!

But this next story HAS WITHIN IT "something" that really "disturbs" me, especially as one who is still caught up here inside the boundaries of the corrupt EMPIRE STATE, where in my immediate area, SIMILAR "SENTIMENTS" SEEM TO PREVAIL, and all in all, for someone like me, THAT JUST IS NOT A GOOD THING:

"Teen who killed 9 reportedly admired Hitler - Other students said he was picked on and that he'd made threats"

March 22: A Native American community was struggling to comprehend the shootings that left 10 people dead.

NBC, MSNBC and news services

Updated: 11:27 a.m. ET March 22, 2005

BEMIDJI, Minn. - A troubling profile of the teenager who shot dead nine people, seven at his high school, emerged on Tuesday — one of a Native American who described himself as a "NativeNazi" and who other students said was regularly picked on for his odd behavior.

The teenager, identified as 17-year-old Jeff Weise, stormed into Red Lake High School on Monday afternoon, shooting dead a guard, a teacher and five students before apparently killing himself.

At least 14 other students and teachers were wounded in the nation’s worst school shooting since the Columbine massacre in 1999 that killed 13 people.

Weise had been placed in the school’s Homebound program for some violation of policy, said school board member Kathryn Beaulieu.

Students in that program stay at home and are tutored by a traveling teacher.

Beaulieu said she didn’t know what Weise’s violation was, and wouldn’t be allowed to reveal it if she did.

Before the school shootings, Weise shot dead his grandfather and his grandfather's girlfriend at the home he shared with them.

Student Sondra Hegstrom, 17, told the Minneapolis Star Tribune that Weise was into goth culture, wore "a big old black trench coat," drew pictures of skeletons, listened to heavy metal music and "talked about death all the time."

A couple of his friends had said he was suicidal, she added, and they said they were watching a movie once when he said, "That would be cool if I shot up the school."

"They didn't think anything of it," Hegstrom said, but "he got terrorized a lot" by others who called him names.

Relatives of Weise told the St. Paul Pioneer Press that Weise's father committed suicide four years ago, and his mother lives in a Minneapolis nursing home because she suffered brain injuries in a car accident, the relatives said.

Online postings about 'racial purity'

Weise was also found by the St. Paul Pioneer Press newspaper to have posted several comments last year on an online forum frequented by neo-Nazis.

He used the pen names Todesengel, German for "angel of death," and "NativeNazi."

"I guess I've always carried a natural admiration for Hitler and his ideals, and his courage to take on larger nations," Weise wrote in one session.

He shared the Nazi goal of racial purity, saying that when he talked in school about that for his own Chippewa tribe, "I get the same old argument which seems to be so common around here."

"'We need to mix all the races, to combine all the strengths.'"

"They (teachers) don't openly say that racial purity is wrong," he added, "yet when you speak your mind on the subject you get 'silenced' real quick by the teachers and likeminded school officials."

"When I was growing up, I was taught (like others) that Nazi's were evil and that Hitler was a very evil man," he said in another posting.

"Of course, not for a second did I believe this."

"... They truly were doing it for the better."

He also wrote that he planned to recruit high school students to join a neo-Nazi movement he hoped to start on his reservation.

"The only ones who oppose my views are the teachers at the high school, and a large portion of the student body who think a Nazi is a Klansman, or a White Supremacist thug," he wrote.

"Most of the Natives I know have been poisoned by what they were taught in school."

Students describe ordeal

The school, which is on the Red Lake Chippewa Tribe reservation, has metal detectors but Weise reportedly shot an unarmed guard to get past the station.

Student Reggie Graves said he was watching a movie about Shakespeare in class Monday when he heard Weise blast his way past the metal detector.

Then, in a nearby classroom, he heard Weise say something to his friend Ryan:

“He asked Ryan if he believed in God,” Graves said.

“And then he shot him.”

During the rampage, teachers herded students from one room to another, trying to move away from the sound of the shooting, said Graves, 14.

He said some students crouched under desks.

Student Ashley Morrison said she heard shots, then saw the gunman’s face peering though a door window of a classroom where she was hiding with other students.

With Weise banging on the door, she dialed her mother on her cell phone.

“’Mom, he’s trying to get in here and I’m scared,”’ Morrison told her mother.

After banging, the shooter walked away and she heard more shots.

“I can’t even count how many gunshots you heard, there was over 20 ... there were people screaming, and they made us get behind the desk,” she said.

Hegstrom said her classmates pleaded with Weise to stop shooting.

“You could hear a girl saying, ’No, Jeff, quit, quit.'"

"'Leave me alone.'"

"What are you doing?” she told The Pioneer of Bemidji.

Hegstrom described Weise grinning and waving at a student his gun was pointed at, then swiveling to shoot someone else.

“I looked him in the eye and ran in the room, and that’s when I hid,” she said.

Red Lake Fire Director Roman Stately identified the shooter’s grandfather as Daryl Lussier, a longtime officer with the Red Lake Police Department, and said Lussier’s guns may have been used in the shootings.

Stately said Weise had two handguns and a shotgun.

The teen reportedly drove up to the school in his grandfather's squad car.

“After he shot a security guard, he walked down the hallway shooting and went into a classroom where he shot a teacher and more students,” Stately told Minneapolis television station KARE.

Students and a teacher, Diane Schwanz, said the gunman tried to break down a door to get into her classroom.

“I just got on the floor and called the cops,” Schwanz told the Pioneer.

“I was still just half-believing it.”

All of the dead students were found in one room.

Martha Thunder’s 15-year-old son, Cody, was being treated for a gunshot wound to the hip.

“He heard gunshots and the teacher said ’No, that’s the janitor’s doing something,’ and the next thing he knew, the kid walked in there and pointed the gun right at him,” Thunder said, standing outside the hospital in Bemidji.

‘Darkest hour' for tribe

Floyd Jourdain Jr., chairman of the Red Lake Chippewa Tribe, called it “without a doubt the darkest hour” in the group’s history.

It was the nation’s worst school shooting since two students at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo., killed 12 students and a teacher and wounded 23 before killing themselves on April 20, 1999.

The rampage in Red Lake was the second fatal school shooting in Minnesota in 18 months.

Two students were killed at Rocori High School in Cold Spring in September 2003.

Student John Jason McLaughlin, who was 15 at the time, awaits trial in the case.

Red Lake High School, on the Red Lake Indian Reservation, has about 300 students.

The reservation is about 240 miles north of the Twin Cities.

It is home to the Red Lake Chippewa Tribe, one of the poorest in the state.

According to the 2000 census, 5,162 people lived on the reservation, and all but 91 were Indians.

The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.

end quotes

LIFE in the warped and twisted America, or MURIKA, of the hate-spewing Rush Limbaughs of OUR world!

And George W. Bush, as well!

What a swamp!

And it is all around me, as well, which makes me damn glad that I am getting older, so that my time left down here in this hell George W. Bush is going to create for us all is going to come to an end, sooner than later.

NEO-NAZIS and NEO-CONS!

ALL ONE THING, folks, ALL ONE THING!

And look at who George W. Bush EMBRACES as his own!

And then wonder at your own future, BECAUSE .....

AS HE SAYS, IF YOU ARE NOT WITH HIM, THEN YOU ARE THE ENEMY, AND YOU WILL BE PUT DOWN, AND HARD, BY HIM AND HIS!

For the good of what he and Rush Limbaugh call their America, which is a land of pure hatred to me, but apparently some kind of "heaven" to them!

Livyjr,

Could you explain the connection you see between George Bush and this tragedy? Bushwhacking is one of my favorite pastimes, but doesn't it muddy the water to blame him for something he had nothing to do with?

ISFU

Future point collectors take note:

On a recent trip to my former home, New York City, an old man with a cane was crossing the street in midtown Manhattan when a taxicab, turning right, got a little too close to his intended path.

He proceeded to whack the hood of the cab with his cane with a force thast his size and physical condition belied.

"Ahhhmmm Waawwwwkin heeeeeahhhhh!" he excalimed, in the thickest accent I have heard in a long time.

I had to contain myself.

There is an atmosphere of hatred in this country that is unprecedented for me in my lifetime, which includes the 1950's, and segregation, although I did not live in the south!

I RECALL, with my own ears, hearing Dwight David Eisenhower using what I thought then and now was the full weight of HIS OFFICE AGAINST THAT HATRED ASSOCIATED WITH SEGREGATION, and whether or not he made a difference to anything else, that position that he took then was to me, at my young age, what I thought real, true leadership was really all about.

TODAY, we hear nothing from George W. Bush about what I think is virulent hatred here in OUR America, which is something that to me is tangible, visceral, and has overt acts associated with it, such as this shooting, above here!

And not only do we hear nothing from George W. Bush about the hatred, but it seems that HE personally has become a cult figure here in OUR America, and that "cult", if you will, includes these neo-nazi types!

George W. Bush, by his actions, has raised, or has allowed to be raised on American soil a large mercenary army, that is linked to hate groups in the south!

SO!

I don't engage in Bush bashing, actually!

I am in a place myself where these "sentiments" are expressed openly, and that is all directly linked to this "cult" thing that surrounds George W. Bush!

George W. Bush, by his words, promotes that cult, IN MY OWN OPINION, and so, out of concern, I speak out.

THEN ....

Someone like yourself will come back and perhaps challenge what I have said, and so information will flow back and forth, and the matter will be resolved, or not, and people will learn and grow from the process, OR NOT!

I AM CONCERNED ABOUT THIS RIGHT-WING EXTREMIST CRAP HERE IN OUR AMERICA, AND I WANT TO HEAR THIS PRESIDENT DENOUNCE IT, AS DWIGHT DAVID EISENHOWER DID!

There, I said it!

And so, IT IS A LEADERSHIP THING, with me!

Or lack of it in the case of George W. Bush, which then allows the hatred to flourish, AGAIN, IN MY OPINION!

And thank you very much for giving me an opportunity to state that in reply to your above query!

It is not for me a trivial point, and so, I am most glad you asked me to clarify myself, here!

God bless the pedestrian, jeffmoskin, especially when he is armed with a cane, and is not afraid to use it!

And I can just picture the scene, and boy, does it have me laughing!

WHACK! WHACK! WHACK!

Although the question was asked of you, Livyjr, I do not believe it is just a question that only concerns you.

Actually, one might say, almost everything that happens here in OUR AMERICA
concerns all of us.

And that is because what happens to any one of us can easily happen to all of us.

Dictators count on people not wanting to become involved in what happens to a person who lives in a different part of the country.

So, little by little they become stronger and stronger.

Like a tiny hole in a dam. If it is plugged before it gets larger, there is no damage

If it is not plugged, the hole gets larger and larger until the entire dam is compromised.

Take the CEO of a large corporation. Of course the CEO cannot know of every little detail that takes place in every department. Is he responsible if one of the accountants embezzles a few thousand dollars?

Yes, unfortunately he is. And why should he be?

Because the top man in the company AND IN THE COUNTRY set the tone, the morals, and the philosophy for everyone that is a part of of that organization.

If a country or a company is known to have high integrity, it is not because the janitor is an honest man. All of the traits start at the top, not the bottom.

So thank you, Livyjr for your explanation to a fair question.

A.B.

I'm still skeptical about a climate of hatred explanation. It's too glib. And it diverts attention from the Shenanigans that the Shrub has his hands in up to his elbows. To find ways to prevent this sort of violence, I think we need to look deeper and in more different places.

Somewhere in my files, I thought I had a copy of an e-mail which I had sent to what I call a "HATE-RADIO" talk jock in my area, speaking to him about a segment of his "HATE SHOW" that I had been listening to, where the clear message to me was "GO OUT AND SMASH IN SOME INTELLECTUAL'S SKULL, AND AMERICA WILL THANK YOU FOR IT"!

The message was clearly given in the name of George W. Bush!

Clearly.

On the same radio channel, which is a CLEAR CHANNELS WORLDWIDE AM station in upstate New York, they had George H. W. Bush on with him denouncing intellectuals!

And the denunciation of intellectuals was a very Nazi thing, as well!

Intellectuals are capable of using their intellects after all, and so, were a danger to the thug-like Nazis, who were interested in sheer power!

When I was younger, Hitler would often be seen in newsreel footage talking on OUR TV's over here in educational type shows, and when you listen to the use of "VOICE" by Hitler, even though it is in German, to me, it sounds like Rush Limbaugh doing the same thing, which is using "VOICE", although Rush obviously speaks in English so as to be more readily understood over here, in a predominately English-speaking country!

A kind of "dog-barking" cadence, if you will, that sounds like a lot of "HARUMP-ing" type of sounds, where the same short message of hate is spat out, over and over and over again: "THEY ARE NOT LIKE US!"

Over and over!

And that message filters out over the airwaves each and every day!

And it just keeps reverberating: "THEY ARE NOT LIKE US, THEY ARE NOT LIKE US, THEY ARE NOT LIKE US!"

And when the killing starts, which it did when we started bombing Afghanistan, THEN THE CHEERING STARTS!

And once started, it goes on and on and on!

That is my perception, anyway, and perception is all it can ever be, since I cannot prove what I saw or heard on a certain day, where I am, if none others of you are in the same place to see and hear what I did on that day!

And to be quite truthful, that is one reason for this thread, to post my perceptions in order to see what response they do draw, which oftentimes appears to be nothing at all, and so, either way, I am always learning about LIFE in OUR America, as others here might see it through their own eyes, such as Istoodforu!

Remember, folks, that this is a tapestry in here, with many different colored threads running though it, of necessity, elsewise, it would not be a tapestry in the first place!

Each contributor, or expositor, such as Istoodforu, brings their own personal "mix" to the greater mix in here, and there really is no right or wrong!

Rather, there are points of view expressed, and agreement, or disagreement, as appropriate!

And out of that comes direction, one way, or the other.

Can I prove that the atmosphere of hatred that I think is becoming more and more rampant here in OUR America had anything to do with this school-shooting tragedy?

Of course not!

The shooter is dead, and all of his thoughts on why he did what he did died with him, and that is that!

BUT ....

The atmosphere of hatred unfortunately didn't die with him, and hence, this conversation in here, to talk about all of that!

This morning I started out with problems in my computer

I tried everything I know about computers ( which isn't a whole lot ) to get it straightened out, to no avail.

So what does that have to do with life here in Our America?

Ler me tell you.

I finally called the manufacturer of my computer and started to explain the problem.

A cheery female voice said to me, " hold on a moment ".

After a few minutes, a male voice with an accent came on the line.

I explained the problem to him.

He said it could be fixed with some instructions over the phone by one of their technicians.

He said the charge would be $ 40. I thought that was not too unreasonable. He also said I would be on " hold " for several minutes.

Then I asked him where he was.

His answer -- " India "

Evidently, Hewlett Packad finds it more profitable to pay for a phone call to India, which might last 15 or 20 minutes ( or longer ) plus all the other costs of doing business than by having a technical support operation here in the U.S.

I became so irritated with this, I told him I would think about it and I hung up.

Another non union job outsourced to a foreign country. That's the current way of
selling out our country, bit by bit.

BTW, I called my son in another state and he had my computer up and running in less then 15 minutes. ( I knew you would want to know )

A.B.

And here I cannot agree more with you, Mr. A.B., not at all!

While the question did come my way, to me, IT IS AN AMERICAN QUESTION, and not mine alone, so that you or jeffmoskin, or a host of others, will all have your own "take" on this matter, DEPENDING upon where you each are, and what is going on where you are, that you are aware of!

It is like being a doctor, confronted all of the time by sick people!

What you are confronted with daily skews, or might skew, anyway, your own view of what the world is like, and so, I like to hear different points of view myself, so long as we do not degenerate into emotional arguments about such nebulous things as what "arrogance" might really mean, and can someone like George W. Bush or Dick Cheney ever have too much of it in the POST-9/11 ENVIRONMENT?

That is like arguing that the Yankees are best, bar none!

Well, okay, sure, they are, and guess what, you win the argument, because I DON'T ARGUE!

I discuss, but I don't argue!

Why bother?

But discussing a "matter" in order to determine if it might be more than just a chimera, such as this hatred thing, now, to me, that is different.

Istoodforu is wherever Istoodforu is, with all of what comes along with that "place", and that "place" might be a diametric "opposite" to what it is like where I am, IN ALL WAYS!

I know that San Francisco, for example, is much different than it is where I am, so that if a person from San Francisco were in on this conversation, based on their life out there, they might be scratching their heads as to what I am talking about in here sometimes, especially New York State politics, BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE THOSE THINGS ANY LESS REAL TO ME, the "experiencer" who is on the scene!

And you, Mr. A.B., you have your own views totally independent of mine, and I for one value the opportunity to hear your views on a subject such as this one that Istoodforu has raised in here for us all to consider.

And so, please, be my guest and consider this an open question for group discussion, because it is too important to just let it fade away today, as it will only be back next week in a yet more virulent form, if we all decide to just ignore the discussion because it is a "hard", or "uncomfortable" subject!

And jeffmoskin, your opinion on this matter is requested as well, should you feel inclined to join in here.

And here, Istoodforu, I couldn't agree more with you ABOUT FINDING WAYS TO "PREVENT" THIS SORT OF HATE-INSPIRED VIOLENCE HERE IN OUR AMERICA, BUT HOW TO DO?

I think that is really what we are trying to explore in here, how to actually do that "search" that you talk about right above here.

And IS my answer really "glib"?

Hhhmmm.

Let's look and see, for I don't think it really is, glib, that is:

GLIB:

a) smooth, slippery;

marked by ease and informality, nonchalant;

c) showing LITTLE FORETHOUGHT or preparation;

d) lacking depth or substance;

e) superficial, slick;

f) marked by ease and fluency in speaking, or writing, often to the point of being superficial or tricky!

And so .....

With respect to "preventing" this type of violence?

I personally think that can only be done by individuals, and perhaps communities, but not nations, because nations are just too big!

I take it back to the Navaho concept of "HOZHO" myself, balance, or a lack thereof!

And that takes us back to leadership!

Without leadership, nothing can start, and only chaos can follow!

Which is how we got to here, is what I think anyway!

SO?

Where's the exit to "OUT"?

A question for OUR times, here in OUR America!

Stay tuned for further developments, as they happen!

LIVE!

And no paid actors portraying real people in here, either, or at least, not Livyjr!

For he is me, and I am just another serf, here in OUR America, doing this for love of country, and not for money at all!

Your son has a GREAT future in bangalore.

Last year, I had some similar kinds of problems, and so, I called Gateway, and their technicians are in India, too.

They were polite, and helpful, and thanks to them, I did get the computer up and running, again.

Just the other day, I had a problem with my DSL dialer, and called Verizon's tech help, and I spoke to an American, or at least he sure did sound like one to me, and he was helpful as well.

And I have to say, Mr. A.B., that I am of mixed emotions about all of this stuff, since money spent locally stays local, while money sent to another place is gone; what I call the Hoover vacuum cleaner effect!

Those tech centers in India are the Hoover vacuum cleaner, and the hose is over here, in OUR pockets.

The farther away that Hoover vacuum cleaner motor is that's doing the sucking from the end of the hose, the farther away the money goes, and the longer it will be before we ever see it again!

I suppose some great big "WHIZ-BANG" of an economist down there in Washington, D$C$ has it all figured out that these techs in India are now going to buy an Amana dishwasher from some store in Indiana or some such bunkum as that, but as for me, I think if you export your money, IT IS GONE!

BUT ....

It is a "ONE WORLD" economy, now, thanks to the multi-national corporations, and so ....

All we can do is stay in the saddle one more day, or get bucked off in the dust, and then watch out, for if it was a bull that you were riding, he's coming for you right about now!

The day and age of stupidity is upon us, here in OUR America, is what I think, which is why the jobs are gone, and the money is going too!

Who is responsible?

Probably everyone!

And that seems to be the way it goes, with civilizations, they just seem to grow stupid, and then they are gone, especially democracies, and Republics, like OURS once was, and may never be again!

And ain't that the truth, jeffmoskin!

Where the action is at!

If you can just stand the heat!

When I had my computer problems, and had to call India to get them straightened out, it was winter here, and I was freezing, and the tech over in India was complaining of the infernal heat, over there!

Apparently he had gone to school over here, and had experienced winter, AND HE LIKED IT!

So there is something, anyway!

We're getting cross-culturized each time our computers break down!

SO!

How about that?

And here, before I get into other things, such as the comment by Istoodforu about George W. Bush and "shenanigans" above here, I want to update this Social Security business, so that OUR record in here remains as complete as is possible, right on up to this moment in time:

Politics - U. S. Congress

"Battle Ahead Over Social Security Report"

6 minutes ago

By MARTIN CRUTSINGER, AP Economics Writer

WASHINGTON - Both sides in the pitched battle over Social Security are getting ready to argue over a whole new set of numbers — the annual assessment of when Social Security and Medicare will go broke.

Even before the report was released Wednesday, critics complained that the administration might try to fudge the numbers.

The report by the trustees of Social Security and Medicare will be in the spotlight this year more than ever because President Bush has made overhauling Social Security the top domestic priority of his second term.

Both Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney were on the road this week, seeking to build support for the overhaul drive, which has run into major opposition from Democrats in Congress who oppose the president's plan to divert a portion of Social Security taxes to create private accounts for younger workers.

Democrats have accused the administration of overstating the funding crisis facing Social Security and contend that Bush is avoiding dealing with the even more serious financing problems in Medicare, the government's health care program for the elderly and disabled.

Social Security provides retirement, survivors and disability income for 47.7 million Americans, and Medicare provides health care for 42 million seniors and disabled people.

The six-member board of trustees for both Social Security and Medicare is headed by Treasury Secretary John Snow and includes Health and Human Services Secretary Mike Leavitt, Labor Secretary Elaine Chao and Social Security Commissioner Jo Anne Barnhart.

In addition, there are two public trustees, Thomas Saving of Texas, who has been a proponent of Bush's proposal to create private savings accounts, and John L. Palmer of New York.

While the trustees' report will reflect the decisions made by the six-member board, some Democrats in Congress and other critics have been pushing to make public the recommendations that the board receives from the professional staff of the Social Security Administration.

Those recommendations are not made public, and the deliberations of the trustees also occur in secret.

Critics said the administration was able to conceal from Congress projections made by Medicare's chief actuary that the prescription drug program Congress approved in 2003 would be vastly more expensive than Congress had been led to believe.

The Center for Economic and Policy Research, a liberal-leaning research organization, said unless the recommendations upon which the trustees make their decisions are made public "there is no way of knowing whether the trustees' report is based on expert advice as opposed to political considerations."

Saving and Palmer testified to a congressional committee earlier this month that there have been no major changes in the financial outlook for either Social Security or Medicare over the past year.

Last year's report put the date that Social Security would exhaust all the resources in its trust fund at 2042.

And much earlier, in 2018, the Social Security program will not be collecting enough in payroll taxes to meet its obligations to retirees, the trustees said last year.

The 2018 date is more significant because it is at that point that the government will begin cashing in the bonds that have built up in the trust fund.

However, since those bonds don't represent actual assets, the redemption process will require the government to either borrow more from financial markets, raise taxes or cut spending in other government programs to come up with the resources to meet obligations to retirees.

The situation in Medicare is even more dire.

The health care program crossed the threshold where payroll taxes were not sufficient to meet medical costs for current beneficiaries last year.

It will exhaust all the resources in its trust fund in 2019, according to last year's trustees report.

The financing problems of Medicare are more severe because health care costs are rising so much more rapidly than inflation.

The annual cost of Medicare is $325 billion while the cost of Social Security is $517 billion.

However, the trustees projected last year that Medicare's costs would overtake Social Security by 2024 and would be nearly double Social Security by 2078.
___

On the Net:

Treasury Department: http://www.ustreas.gov

And right on the heels of that report above about how "dire" the situation with Medicare is because health care costs themselves are soaring right on up and out of sight, which puts a burden directly on "well" people to have to carry the dead weight of all the "sick" people out there, so that the healthcare "industry" run by the Scrushy's of the world can themselves grow fatter and fatter on OUR collective misery and suffering, what do we have to be added to the "BURDEN LIST" next, by OUR politicians, who just cannot pump enough of OUR money as it is down this healthcare "INDUSTRY'S" pockets?

Aaahhh, yes, obesity!

That most quintessential American "condition" these days!

I think it's what comes of having three or four thousand channels of REALITY TELEVISION to watch on your 35,000 square foot, rear-projection, digitally-enhanced, high definition TV, instead of living a reality life, or maybe up here in the corrupt EMPIRE STATE, obesity comes from sitting on your dead *** all day long scratching off "SCRATCH OFFS" from George Pataki's NEW YORK STATE LOTTERY, instead of engaging in some honest work and exercise, but what the hey, it's for "ED-JU-MA-CA-TION", they say, and that can't be bad, can it?

Buy some more metal detectors and guards for our prison-like school buildings, and life will just have to be oh soooo good, for the security companies who are in the ascendency over here, anyway, like the healthcare boys under Scrushy:

Health - AP

"States Consider Obesity Surgery Coverage"

Tue Mar 22, 4:22 PM ET

By NOREEN GILLESPIE, Associated Press Writer

HARTFORD, Conn. - A proposal before Connecticut lawmakers would require insurance companies to cover the surgery for people with a body-mass index of 30 or more if a doctor deems the surgery medically necessary.

The BMI is a widely used formula based on height and weight.

The Connecticut proposal may not get off the ground this session because lawmakers are struggling to define under what medical conditions the surgery should be covered, said Sen. Joseph Crisco, a Woodbridge Democrat who chairs the legislative committee looking at the issue.

The debate is not unlike others across the country.

Georgia lawmakers are considering a similar bill this year.

And in Louisiana, 40 state employees were chosen last year from 1,200 applications to get the surgery on the state's dime.

The standard surgery, which can cost between $20,000 and $35,000, involves using staples to separate a small pouch at the stomach's top from the rest of the stomach, greatly limiting the amount of food that can be eaten.

The procedure also involves bypassing much of the small intestine so that less food is absorbed into the body.

Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Alabama recently stopped paying for the operations while it decides how to handle claims; Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Florida has also decided to stop paying for the operation.

In Connecticut, many major plans offer coverage only for large numbers of employees.

Others are considering offering the coverage for an additional charge.

"What we're starting to see is an increase in what we would consider at best, unnecessary, and at worst, unsafe, surgery," said Keith Stover, a lobbyist for the Connecticut Association of Health Plans.

"Many plans decide the best course of action simply is to exclude coverage."

But many physicians say the long-term benefits of weight loss surgery outweigh the risk.

Gastric bypass surgery can help cure obesity-related health problems such as high cholesterol, high blood pressure, sleep apnea and even diabetes, said Dr. Jonathan Aranow, director of the Middlesex Hospital Center for Obesity Surgery.

It can also cut down on the long-term cost of medications, he said.

"The surgery pays for itself in under three years," he said.

"There is no question that there are cost savings."

Last year the federal government opened the door for Medicare coverage of gastric bypass surgery.

But some lawmakers and insurers are also worried about risks.

State Rep. Anthony D'Amelio, R-Waterbury, said noted two people in his district died after having the operation.

Complications strike as many as 1 in 5 patients having the surgery, and it is believed that for every 200 patients, 1 to 4 will die.

Estimates are that more than 100,000 people will have the surgery this year.

"I would rather see people try to do it the harder way, exercise and eating properly," D'Amelio said.

"I know it's a struggle ... I think it's the safest route."

But for some patients, the hard way hasn't worked.

Deborah Sicaras, 36, of Wethersfield, has tried Weight Watchers, Jenny Craig, diet pills and liquid diets; she also teaches ballet, tap and jazz four days a week.

"I'm one of the fortunate ones who will be able to have this surgery in the very near future," she said.

"I can't do this by myself."

"I need assistance."

"I've dieted my whole life."