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Livyjr
A secure line?

You've got to be kidding me, Morambar!

Secure?

That's a laugh!

There's probably a satellite devoted to you right now, that is synched in to a predator drone, and well, you know how that scenario goes!

And then, up here where I am, in the GULAG ARCHIPELAGO of America, there are always the secure mental facilities beckoning the unwary and the wary, both, and the "modern state" up here has its bogus doctors lined up and waiting to commit YOU, yes, you, as an enemy of the state, for the good of the "modern state"!

Bullets are just too expensive anymore, and well, the perverts can't have as much fun with dead people as they can with the live ones, as the abu Ghraib wierdos working for "Uncle Sam" proved to all the candid, watching world, and so, now we have the GULAGS for them to have their sport in, when they are not getting their kicks at abu Ghraib.

Long live the "modern state"!

And down with people!

After all, what good are they for anything?
Livyjr
Some people think only intellect counts: knowing how to solve problems, knowing how to get by, knowing how to identify an advantage and seize it.

But the functions of intellect are insufficient without courage, love, friendship, compassion, and empathy.


- Dean Koontz
jeffmoskin
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Apr 23 2005, 04:46 PM)
"You can't blame Bush for what his grandfather did any more than you can blame Jack Kennedy for what his father did...

but you CAN hold him responsible for what HE did - - - unsigning Clinton's Executive order to join the International Criminal Court - - - which prevents the prosecution of the claims of the two Holocaust survivors in that venue after the US court rejected them.
Livyjr
QUOTE(jeffmoskin @ Apr 24 2005, 08:06 AM)
.... but you CAN hold him responsible for what HE did ...

Isn't that now "un-American", jeffmoskin, holding our leaders responsible for anything at all?

Because then, of course, the "PEOPLE" themselves would have to start acting in a responsible manner as well, and where would that lead us to?

Integrity?

That's no fun!
Abu Beacon
QUOTE(jeffmoskin @ Apr 24 2005, 09:06 AM)
but you CAN hold him responsible for what HE did - - - unsigning Clinton's Executive order to join the International Criminal Court - - - which prevents the prosecution of the claims of the two Holocaust survivors in that venue after the US court rejected them.
*


Tim Russer's program starts in a few minutes. I try to watch that when I can, so I have just a moment now for one comment on the International Criminal Court.

If we had joined it, where would all of the fine upstanding officers who were in any way connected with Abu Ghraib be now?

Cleared of any responsibility just like this latest military court cleared them?

Sure. It was all the fault of the enlisted men.

I watched a program called Dr. Phil for a while last year. It was too soap opera like for me so I stopped watching it. However he used one statement many times that I like and agree with which is ---

" People that have nothing to hide, hide nothing. "

Do you agree with that, Mr. President?

A.B.
jeffmoskin
QUOTE(Morambar in TX @ Apr 23 2005, 08:31 PM)
Snoopy ties it together again, thanks.  Should I post my JFK/RFK/MLK theory here, so they can get two patriots with one shot? 

John Foster Dulles had a brother, name of Allan.  Used to run this thing called the Central Intelligence Agency, which was literally built on the Naval OSS.  During WWII the OSS had a member who would himself later rise to prominence, largely on the basis of his wartime service, fella named Nixon.  In between the war and Nixons inauguration as Vice President several things happened:  John Foster Dulles became Secy. of State, the health of General Eisenhower deteriorated rapidly (but not his affection for Kay Summersby,) and Operation Paper Clip transported a number of Nazi war criminals to the US with full pardon because we couldn't risk the Russians getting them (after all, if it wasn't for the Germans the Japanese probably beat us to the bomb and the world is a VERY different place.) 

So the US has this ultra-secret, brand new intelligence agency developed from Naval Intelligence.  In 1952 one of their former members begins an eight year reign of the country while the nominal leader plays bridge and golf, runs around on Mamie with Kay, and has two heart attacks and a stroke, during all of which time, guess who's making tuff decisions like whether we should intervene in Vietnam?  Everythings going along swimmingly; who knows more about running a shadow government than the Nazis? 

Then something unfortunate happens.  The Vice President loses his bid to become President outright by a little over a hundred thousand votes.  A few years later, a young man who would one day become President shakes the hand of the victor on the day he is shot, despite being a teen-age resident of a city 200 miles away, leading us to at least consider the possibility he was accompanied by a parent, possibly his father, a CIA agent.  A commission is quickly convened to get to the bottom of the event, whose members include a young and unremarkable Congressman from Michigan named Ford and the director of the CIA, a fella named Dulles.  They conclude there was no conspiracy, just a lone nutter.

Meanwhile the body count mounts in Southeast Asia, on both sides, and the man we wouldn't have to kick around anymore comes in to save the day on a platform of ending the war (a platform on which he campaigned TWICE.)  All is going well, and then something unfortunate happens.  The President is so crushed by a war the Intelligence community won't let him end, and the consequences of that war for the Great Society that was to be phase two of the New Deal, that he announces he will not run, nor even accept the nomination if it is thrust upon him.  Suddenly, the young Senator from New York decides that maybe he wants to be President after all. As the popular brother of the martyred former President, a champion of blacks, latinos, and all the poor, AND A DOVE he can't lose.  And then he went to CA.  Who do we know from CA?  Oh, gee, a couple people huh?  (Including the Chief Justice appointed by "Eisenhower" who presided over the Warren Commission.)

So how p----d was that guy who took his kid to see JFK when Reagan got the nomination?  Don't ask me.  Ask John Hinkley.  Or maybe his brothers dinner partner the day before Reagan was shot.  This is a secure line, right?
*



Well, Morambar, I have to straighten this out a little bit:

1. While Ike was playing golf, it was Sherman Adams, not Nixon, who was "running" the country. Ike hated Nixon - - never even invited him and Pat to dinner once in 8 years. One reason he hated him was that Ike had intended for Earl Warren to be VP. But Nixon showed up 2 weeks ahead of Warren at the Convention and had the spot all sewn up by the time Warren arrived. Ike made him Chief Justice as a consolation prize.

He also hated Nixon because he was a sneaky bastard. In any event, Ike was dead set against Americans in foreign wars. Remember who ended Korea? The "aid" Ike gave deGaulle for Indochina was minimal: just to show support - - not take over for the French. We got started in Vietnam under JFK but only on a small scale. Speculation has it that Kennedy was going to "declare victory" as a boost for re-election and withdraw most of the US troops. But then he went to Dallas to help shore up the Democratic Party (why couldn't Johnson have done that? Why else would Kennedy have agreed to have a crude SOB like him on the ticket if not for keeping Texas together?)

2. Johnson was the consummate politician and only made his "I will not seek" speech after concluding that he could not win the election. And he hated close elections, especially if he couldn't steal the votes he needed to win. Like Kennedy did in Illinois in 1960. But Johnson was not stupid. He realised (too late) that all the military advisors had been telling him lies from day one. His answer was to bully his way to victory - - more troops, more bombing, more money - - but it didn't work. Finally, seeing himself losing in 68, he simply chose not to run.

3. I don't really see a JFK, RFK, MLK link, other than the latter two were, IMHO, very special people whose continued existance would have made for a much better America than we now have.
Livyjr
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Apr 24 2005, 08:21 AM)
Isn't that now "un-American", jeffmoskin, holding our leaders responsible for anything at all?

Because then, of course, the "PEOPLE" themselves would have to start acting in a responsible manner as well, and where would that lead us to?

Integrity?

That's no fun!

No, that's no fun at all, and well, if you don't want to take my word for it, just ask "TWO-GUN TEXAS TOMMY Delay, the "HEADMAN of somebody or other's CONGRESS down there in Washington, D$C$, and he'll set you "straight", and that's a fact:

washingtonpost.com Highlights

"Lobbyist financed DeLay airfare, papers show - Embattled lawmaker denies breaking House ethics rules"

By R. Jeffrey Smith

Updated: 12:20 a.m. ET April 24, 2005

The airfare to London and Scotland in 2000 for then-House Majority Whip Tom DeLay (R-Tex.) was charged to an American Express card issued to Jack Abramoff, a Washington lobbyist at the center of a federal criminal and tax probe, according to two sources who know Abramoff's credit card account number and to a copy of a travel invoice displaying that number.

DeLay's expenses during the same trip for food, phone calls and other items at a golf course hotel in Scotland were billed to a different credit card also used on the trip by a second registered Washington lobbyist, Edwin A. Buckham, according to receipts documenting that portion of the trip.


DeLay defends arrangements

House ethics rules bar lawmakers from accepting travel and related expenses from registered lobbyists.

DeLay, who is now House majority leader, has said that his expenses on this trip were paid by a nonprofit organization and that the financial arrangements for it were proper.

He has also said he had no way of knowing that any lobbyist might have financially supported the trip, either directly or through reimbursements to the nonprofit organization.

The documents obtained by The Washington Post, including receipts for his hotel stays in Scotland and London and billings for his golfing during the trip at the famed St. Andrews course in Scotland, substantiate for the first time that some of DeLay's expenses on the trip were billed to charge cards used by the two lobbyists.

The invoice for DeLay's plane fare lists the name of what was then Abramoff's lobbying firm, Preston Gates & Ellis.

Multiple sources, including DeLay's then-chief of staff Susan Hirschmann, have confirmed that DeLay's congressional office was in direct contact with Preston Gates about the trip itinerary before DeLay's departure, to work out details of his travel.

These contacts raise questions about DeLay's statement that he had no way of knowing about the financial and logistical support provided by Abramoff and his firm.

Yesterday, DeLay's lawyer, Bobby R. Burchfield, said that DeLay's staff was aware that Preston Gates was trying to arrange meetings and hotels for the trip but that DeLay was unaware of the "logistics" of bill payments, and that DeLay "continues to understand his expenses" were properly paid by the nonprofit organization, the National Center for Public Policy Research.

Organization's role questioned

In 2000, Abramoff was a board member of the group.

In a telephone interview yesterday, Hirschmann said the contacts between DeLay's office and persons at Preston Gates occurred because Abramoff "was a board member of the sponsoring organization."

Hirschmann added: "We were assured that the National Center paid for the trip."

House rules do not exempt such nonprofit organization board members from the prohibition on lobbyist payments for travel.

They also state that this prohibition "applies even where the lobbyist . . . will later be reimbursed for those expenses by a non-lobbyist client."

Burchfield did not dispute that Abramoff used his credit card to pay for DeLay's plane fare, but said in a statement that "the majority leader has always believed and continues to believe that all appropriate expenses for the U.K. trip were paid by the National Center for Public Policy Research."

He said that "to the extent that Mr. Abramoff put the charges on his personal credit card, Mr. DeLay has no knowledge of this."

"But that would be consistent with Mr. Abramoff obtaining full reimbursement from the National Center."

He said further that, in his view, Abramoff's participation on this trip as a board member meant he was permitted to pay for some of the expenses, subject to reimbursement, and that numerous court decisions recognize that different rules may be applicable to the same person acting in different capacities.


Trip called ‘educational’

Andrew Blum, a publicist for Abramoff's lawyer and spokesman for Abramoff, did not respond to questions relating to the use of Abramoff's credit card for DeLay's plane fare.

But he said in a statement yesterday that it was the National Center that "sponsored" the trip, "not Jack Abramoff."

Blum said that DeLay was "one of the center's honored guests on this trip" and that Abramoff "is being singled out for doing what is commonly done by lobbyists — taking trips with members of Congress and their staff so that they can learn about issues that impact the Congress and government policy."

The center's ability to sponsor "this type of educational trip, using contributor funds, is both legal and proper," Blum said.

DeLay was admonished three times last year by the House ethics committee for infringing rules governing lawmakers' activities and their contacts with registered lobbyists.

House ethics rules bar the payment by lobbyists for any lawmaker's travel-connected entertainment and recreational activities costing more than $50; they also require that lawmakers accurately report the sponsor of their trips and the full cost.

In an article last month about the same trip by DeLay, The Post reported that an Indian tribe and a gambling services company made donations to the National Center for Public Policy Research that covered most of the expenses declared by participants at that time.

The article also said these payments were made two months before DeLay voted against legislation opposed by the tribe and the company.

DeLay has said the vote was unrelated to the payments.

The article also reported that Abramoff submitted an expense voucher to Preston Gates seeking a reimbursement of $12,789.73 to cover expenses for meals, hotels and transportation during the London and Scotland trip incurred by DeLay; his wife, Christine; and his two aides.

Receipts detail trip expenses

The new receipts add more detail about these expenses, make clear that the total expenses for all of the participants were at least $50,000 more than was previously known, and connect Abramoff directly to the payment of some charges.

For DeLay, the 10-day trip began on May 25 with a flight to London from Dulles airport and ended on June 3 with a return trip from Europe via Newark and ending in Houston.

In between, his itinerary called for stops in Edinburgh, Glasgow, and St. Andrews, in Scotland.

DeLay said the purpose of the trip was to hold meetings with "Conservative leaders" in Britain and Scotland, including Margaret Thatcher.

The former prime minister's office has confirmed that such a meeting occurred.

DeLay's two aides, Tony Rudy and Susan Hirschmann, had an overlapping itinerary; Rudy participated from May 29 to June 3, and Hirschmann participated from May 22 to June 2.

The spouses of Rudy and Buckham also were present.

The travel receipts do not make clear how the expenses for the entire trip — which involved at least 10 people and which two sources said exceeded $120,000 — were paid.

One source familiar with the billings said yesterday that the National Center reimbursed Abramoff for the charges incurred by DeLay and his staff that were billed to Abramoff's credit card; but the receipts themselves do not indicate whether some of the charges incurred by Abramoff were ultimately reimbursed and, if so, by whom.

The receipts make clear that flights for DeLay and his wife were initially billed to Abramoff.

The plane ticket for the husband of one of DeLay's aides — David Hirschmann — was billed to the same American Express card used for the DeLay tickets, according to a copy of the invoice.

Although Amy Ridenour, director of the National Center for Public Policy Research, has said she organized the trip, two other sources said that DeLay's round-trip business-class tickets on Continental Airlines and British Airways were booked by Preston Gates employees.

The itinerary and invoice for DeLay's trip, prepared by a travel service in Seattle, was sent by the service to Preston Gates on May 23, 2000, according to a copy of the invoice.

That was two days before DeLay's departure.

The invoice states that DeLay's business-class tickets on Continental Airlines and British Airways cost $6,938.70.

Some expenses not reported

The records also indicate that the expenses associated with DeLay exceeded those that he declared in a signed statement to the House clerk on June 30, 2000.

That form listed the purpose of the trip as "educational" and gave a tally of $28,106 in expenses for DeLay and his wife, or an average of $2,800 a day; it stated that all of these charges were paid by the National Center for Public Policy Research, which provided the data to DeLay.

Receipts from the golfing portion of the trip show that DeLay accumulated additional charges, which, according to fees set by the tour arranger, amounted to nearly $5,000 for each golfer and totaled in the tens of thousands of dollars for the entire group.

Fees associated with playing golf are not listed on DeLay's travel disclosure form.

Burchfield, DeLay's lawyer, said DeLay "personally paid for two rounds of golf and understands that the other two rounds of golf he played were included in his hotel package" and reimbursed by the National Center.

DeLay’s ex-staffer, wife on firm's payroll

A copy of the $81 bill for the DeLays' expenses during the trip at a separate hotel in St. Andrews — the Old Course Hotel Golf Resort & Spa — states that those charges were paid by the same American Express credit card used on the trip by Buckham, the lobbyist, to pay for his own hotel room at the Glasgow Hilton.

Buckham could not be reached by phone at home or his office and did not respond to an e-mailed request for comment.

Burchfield said he cannot explain how this happened and did not know who owned this credit card; he also said DeLay was unaware of this fact.

Buckham, a former chief of staff to DeLay, was at the time a registered lobbyist for AT&T, Enron Corp., and the Nuclear Energy Institute.

DeLay's wife was employed, at the time of the trip, by Buckham's lobbying firm, the Alexander Strategy Group, and was receiving a salary from it, according to DeLay's personal financial disclosure statement for that year, on file with the House clerk.

Abramoff, at the time of the trip, represented eLottery Inc., a gambling services company that opposed the Internet gambling bill pending before the House.

Preston Gates registered as a lobbyist for eLottery on June 2, 2000, one day before the trip ended; later in the year, Abramoff registered as a lobbyist for other clients who opposed the bill, including several Indian tribes.

The federal probe is looking into his handling of his tribal clients and the large fees he was paid.


Hirschmann and her husband ultimately accumulated charges of 2,073 British pounds, or about $1,368 at the prevailing exchange rate for four nights in their "superior" room at the London Four Seasons Hotel.

Those charges included $57 at the hotel lounge, $33 from the room bar, $15 from the gift shop, and $186 for chauffeured cars, according to a copy of their hotel bill.

Hirschmann said one car was used to reach the meeting with Thatcher.

At least one of the Hirschmanns also played golf at St. Andrews.

Susan Hirschmann is now a lobbyist at the Washington firm of Williams & Jensen; the firm's Web site contains a published claim that DeLay and other House Republican leaders are in frequent contact with her.

As a staff member at the time of the trip, she would have been covered by the same ethics rules that apply to DeLay and other House members.

Rudy, her staff colleague at the time, now works for Buckham's lobbying firm.

Delay ‘does not know how the logistics’

DeLay and his wife, for their part, stayed for four nights in a "conservatory" room at the same hotel in London as Hirschmann, accumulating charges of roughly $348 a night for rooms that included a glass-enclosed porch overlooking London's Park Lane, according to a copy of the bill for their stay and the Web site of the hotel.

They also ran up hotel charges of $64 for room service, $6 for a valet pressing and $133 for a private car from Heathrow airport, the bill states.

Their room bill also lists a charge of $191 for six theater tickets, but Burchfield said the DeLays do not recall attending any plays in London.

He said if the hotel charges were being "picked up" by a representative of the National Center, "they would not necessarily have seen the hotel bill."

DeLay, Burchfield said, "does not know how the logistics . . . [of the bill payments for the trip] were being effectuated."


House ethics rules contain detailed provisions barring the acceptance of any travel funds from private sources if doing so would "create the appearance of using public office for private gain."

They also obligate lawmakers to "make inquiry on the source of the funds that will be used to pay" for any travel ostensibly financed by a nonprofit organization — to rule out the acceptance of reimbursements that come from one organization when a trip is "in fact organized and conducted by someone else."

Trips outside the United States are also not supposed to exceed a week in length out of concern, the rules state, for "the public perception that such trips often may amount to paid vacations for the Member and his family at the expense of special interest groups."

Research editor Lucy Shackelford and researchers Alice Crites and Madonna Lebling contributed to this report.

end quotes

"Land of the brave"?

BULL****!

How about "LAND OF THE SLEAZY", instead!

Or the grossly ignorant, if this fancy lawyer, Bobby R. Burchfield, is right about "TWO-GUN TEXAS TOMMY" not knowing anything about nothing at all!
Livyjr
QUOTE(jeffmoskin @ Apr 24 2005, 08:32 AM)
Well, Morambar, I have to straighten this out a little bit:

1. While Ike was playing golf, it was Sherman Adams, not Nixon, who was "running" the country.

Ike hated Nixon - - never even invited him and Pat to dinner once in 8 years.

3. I don't really see a JFK, RFK, MLK link, other than the latter two were, IMHO, very special people whose continued existance would have made for a much better America than we now have.

And, Morambar, I am with jeffmoskin here, on conspiracy theories in general, that they are a waste of time, breath, and space to bother even talking about.

As to where George W. Bush might have been on that day, so what?

George W. Bush and I are of an age, and I know that when Kennedy was killed, it is entirely possible that I could have been there alone, to see him, at the age I was, and so, George W. Bush certainly could have been as well; so that is grounds for nothing.

And what difference if he was chaperoned!

Kenedy was killed, either way!

And he is gone.

Not to come back!

Same way with MLK and Bobby Kennedy.

They're gone!

And to spend time talking about how or why does not bring them back, and it only distracts me, anyway, away from what is happening today, and what might happen tomarrow.

My thoughts, anyway!
Livyjr
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Apr 23 2005, 05:46 PM)
"How Bush's Grandfather Helped Hitler Rise to Power"

by BEN ARIS & DUNCAN CAMPBELL (THE GUARDIAN - U.K.)

George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany.

The Guardian has obtained confirmation from newly discovered files in the US National Archives that a firm of which Prescott Bush was a director was involved with the financial architects of Nazism.

His business dealings, which continued until his company's assets were seized in 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy Act, has led more than 60 years later to a civil action for damages being brought in Germany against the Bush family by two former slave labourers at Auschwitz and to a hum of pre-election controversy.

The evidence has also prompted one former US Nazi war crimes prosecutor to argue that the late senator's action should have been grounds for prosecution for giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

The debate over Prescott Bush's behaviour has been bubbling under the surface for some time.


There has been a steady internet chatter about the "Bush/Nazi" connection, much of it inaccurate and unfair.

But the new documents, many of which were only declassified last year, show that even after America had entered the war and when there was already significant information about the Nazis' plans and policies, he worked for and profited from companies closely involved with the very German businesses that financed Hitler's rise to power.

It has also been suggested that the money he made from these dealings helped to establish the Bush family fortune and set up its political dynasty.


Remarkably, little of Bush's dealings with Germany has received public scrutiny, partly because of the secret status of the documentation involving him.

But now the multibillion dollar legal action for damages by two Holocaust survivors against the Bush family, and the imminent publication of three books on the subject are threatening to make Prescott Bush's business history an uncomfortable issue for his grandson, George W, as he seeks re-election.

While there is no suggestion that Prescott Bush was sympathetic to the Nazi cause, the documents reveal that the firm he worked for, Brown Brothers Harriman (BBH), acted as a US base for the German industrialist, Fritz Thyssen, who helped finance Hitler in the 1930s before falling out with him at the end of the decade.

The Bush family recently approved a flattering biography of Prescott Bush entitled Duty, Honour, Country by Mickey Herskowitz.

The publishers, Rutledge Hill Press, promised the book would "deal honestly with Prescott Bush's alleged business relationships with Nazi industrialists and other accusations".

In fact, the allegations are dealt with in less than two pages.

The book refers to the Herald-Tribune story by saying that "a person of less established ethics would have panicked ... Bush and his partners at Brown Brothers Harriman informed the government regulators that the account, opened in the late 1930s, was 'an unpaid courtesy for a client' ... Prescott Bush acted quickly and openly on behalf of the firm, served well by a reputation that had never been compromised."

"He made available all records and all documents."

"Viewed six decades later in the era of serial corporate scandals and shattered careers, he received what can be viewed as the ultimate clean bill."

Old Prescott Bush, or "Cottie", as I have heard he was called up there "on the HILL", as in "oh, that Cottie, he ain't a bad, old boy at all", and you know, maybe he's not, in the end, such a "bad, old boy" as they say, but in the meantime, he was dealing with the Nazis, and that is a fact.

And you have to wonder, when financial support of an ideology is at issue, as was the case here, exactly where this man did stand!

Was it just a case of the Nazis having a lot of ill-gotten money that they had to be able to move around, and essentially launder, and so were good to do BID-NESS with, because of that, or was it more?

Of course, as they say, old "Cottie" Bush is gone, and well, young George holds the throne now, but you wonder how far any apple does ever fall from its own tree, and with young George, well, his own seeming tendencies towards abolishing OUR democracy make me have to wonder whose "playbook" he is really playing from here, especially as BID-NESS boys like "Cottie" Bush would not have been backing what they thought was a loser back there in the 1930's.

To the contrary, they, like a lot of other American BID-NESS men, thought the National Socialists were going to be the big winners in Europe, and so, they wanted to be "fondly remembered" as "contributers" in the early days, so that they could get lots of "candy" when the heyday came to town!

Was "Cottie" Bush simply amoral?

Was he in fact as dumb as a stump, as some would say of this otherwise genial and gregarious man?

Interesting questions all, and they are certainly food for thought, and as we go along in here, I wouldn't be surprised if from time to time, comparisons between George W. Bush and old "Cottie" continue to be made, since it is in fact a DYNASTY that we are talking about here with the Bushes, and not just some plain, old American family out there in OUR America that deserves its anonymity!

As for me, I think this last sentence above here really shows us where we have come to in OUR America since the days of old "Cottie" Bush, where the Bush family says in this book about old "Cottie" that compared to the financial robbers and corporate looters that we have today in OUR America, why, old "Cottie" wasn't much of anything at all!

But it WAS, WHAT HE WAS, and NOT, what he wasn't, that makes all the difference, and so ......
anderson_perry
QUOTE(jeffmoskin @ Apr 24 2005, 08:32 AM)
Well, Morambar, I have to straighten this out a little bit:

1. While Ike was playing golf, it was Sherman Adams, not Nixon, who    was "running" the country. Ike hated Nixon - - never even invited him and Pat to dinner once in 8 years. One reason he hated him was that Ike had intended for Earl Warren to be VP. But Nixon showed up 2 weeks ahead of Warren at the Convention and had the spot all sewn up by the time Warren arrived. Ike made him Chief Justice as a consolation prize.

He also hated Nixon because he was a sneaky bastard. In any event, Ike was dead set against Americans in foreign wars. Remember who ended Korea? The "aid" Ike gave deGaulle for Indochina was minimal: just to show support - - not take over for the French. We got started in Vietnam under JFK but only on a small scale. Speculation has it that Kennedy was going to "declare victory" as a boost for re-election and withdraw most of the US troops. But then he went to Dallas to help shore up the Democratic Party (why couldn't Johnson have done that?  Why else would Kennedy have agreed to have a crude SOB like him on the ticket if not for keeping Texas together?)

2. Johnson was the consummate politician and only made his "I will not seek" speech after concluding that he could not win the election. And he hated close elections, especially if he couldn't steal the votes he needed to win. Like Kennedy did in Illinois in 1960. But Johnson was not stupid. He realised (too late) that all the military advisors had been telling him lies from day one. His answer was to bully his way to victory - - more troops, more bombing, more money - - but it didn't work. Finally, seeing himself losing in 68, he simply chose not to run.

3. I don't really see a JFK, RFK, MLK link, other than the latter two were, IMHO, very special people whose continued existance would have made for a much better America than we now have.
*



quite an education... thank you!

thumbsup.gif

- perry
'
anderson_perry
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Apr 24 2005, 03:10 PM)
Old Prescott Bush, or "Cottie", as I have heard he was called up there "on the HILL", as in "oh, that Cottie, he ain't a bad, old boy at all", and you know, maybe he's not, in the end, such a "bad, old boy" as they say, but in the meantime, he was dealing with the Nazis, and that is a fact.

And you have to wonder, when financial support of an ideology is at issue, as was the case here, exactly where this man did stand!

Was it just a case of the Nazis having a lot of ill-gotten money that they had to be able to move around, and essentially launder, and so were good to do BID-NESS with, because of that, or was it more?

Of course, as they say, old "Cottie" Bush is gone, and well, young George holds the throne now, but you wonder how far any apple does ever fall from its own tree, and with young George, well, his own seeming tendencies towards abolishing OUR democracy make me have to wonder whose "playbook" he is really playing from here, especially as BID-NESS boys like "Cottie" Bush would not have been backing what they thought was a loser back there in the 1930's.

To the contrary, they, like a lot of other American BID-NESS men, thought the National Socialists were going to be the big winners in Europe, and so, they wanted to be "fondly remembered" as "contributers" in the early days, so that they could get lots of "candy" when the heyday came to town!

Was "Cottie" Bush simply amoral?

Was he in fact as dumb as a stump, as some would say of this otherwise genial and gregarious man?

Interesting questions all, and they are certainly food for thought, and as we go along in here, I wouldn't be surprised if from time to time, comparisons between George W. Bush and old "Cottie" continue to be made, since it is in fact a DYNASTY that we are talking about here with the Bushes, and not just some plain, old American family out there in OUR America that deserves its anonymity!

As for me, I think this last sentence above here really shows us where we have come to in OUR America since the days of old "Cottie" Bush, where the Bush family says in this book about old "Cottie" that compared to the financial robbers and corporate looters that we have today in OUR America, why, old "Cottie" wasn't much of anything at all!

But it WAS, WHAT HE WAS, and NOT, what he wasn't, that makes all the difference, and so ......
*



what i find interesting is that i first heard of prescott bush while reviewing MJ5 or the majestic five, also known as the folks that tried to minimize the events of Roswell and other related incidents....

was there an "arrangment " made between Truman and the E.T.'s ? who knows....

but isn't it interesting that the U.S. government has hundreds of billions of dollars to spend trying to hit one bullet with another.... despite the ever shrinking american dollar

are we using the whole aliens/angels concept as a ruse to spend more money on the military ?????

i think the last report indicated that 166 billion dollars was spent only to "officially" fail to hit one missile with another missile. i say it's all an attempt to put alot of money into a few pockets....

and nobody really bothers with the whole concept of angels or aliens because if they were for real and if they even remotely had the slightest interesting in interfering with our tiny 3rd rock from the sun... i really wonder what we can do short of "their" stupidity

and thats what i know of "Cottie"

- perry
Livyjr
QUOTE(anderson_perry @ Apr 24 2005, 04:00 PM)
what i find interesting is that i first heard of prescott bush while reviewing MJ5 or the majestic five, also known as the folks that tried to minimize the events of Roswell and other related incidents....

but isn't it interesting that the U.S. government has hundreds of billions of dollars to spend trying to hit one bullet with another.... despite the ever shrinking american dollar

are we using the whole aliens/angels concept as a ruse to spend more money on the military?????

i think the last report indicated that 166 billion dollars was spent only to "officially" fail to hit one missile with another missile.

i say it's all an attempt to put a lot of money into a few pockets....

and thats what i know of "Cottie".


- perry

Never a dull moment in here, perry, is there.

And jeffmoskin is a good source of information, which is quite an education, indeed!

And this is interesting, what you have to say on the one hand about "Cottie" Bush and this "MJ5", which I have never heard of, and this business of trying to shoot a "bullet with a bullet", as you say, which is this qua-trillion dollar "missle system" that you are talking about, which definitely does put a whole lot of money in the pockets of a few, which is the American "way", of course, at least as far as the REPUBLICANS are concerned.

I always wonder when I hear of these certain few wanting to get to all these other planets or whatever, like Mars, whether we might have some stranded "explorers" down here who are trying to get back to where they really came from, like George W. Bush, perhaps, with Mars!

And as to all these missles that George W. Bush is so worried about, who has them is what I am wondering!

Putin?

The Newfies?

The French?

Or maybe the Calipari guy that got popped over there in Iraq?

Or is it really that the Martians are this real big threat that I am hearing all about?

Issues!

Always issues!

SO!

Stay tuned.
anderson_perry
QUOTE
and nobody really bothers with the whole concept of angels or aliens because if they were for real and if they even remotely had the slightest interesting in interfering with our tiny 3rd rock from the sun... i really wonder what we can do short of "their" stupidity


CORRECTION

and nobody really bothers with the whole concept of angels or aliens because if they were a real threat and/or if they even remotely had the slightest interest in interfering with our tiny 3rd rock from the sun... i really wonder what we can do short of "their" stupidity

thats not say they do not exist, i for one find it interesting to see footprints of "watcher" activity from today all the way back to ancient documents like the book of enoch

- perry
Livyjr
QUOTE(anderson_perry @ Apr 24 2005, 04:36 PM)
thats not say they do not exist, i for one find it interesting to see footprints of "watcher" activity from today all the way back to ancient documents like the book of enoch

- perry

I wonder, perry, myself about knowledge and abilities that the "ancients" had, that surpass some of our abilities today, in the field of engineering, for example, and in the knowledge that the ancient Taoists had about the human body itself, in an age where no modern scientific equipment, such as electron microscopes, existed that would have allowed those ancients to "see" some of what they knew to be.

I always find this thing of "knowledge" to be an interesting equation, because "knowledge" never seems to be distributed equally among all peoples in all places, and the "sum" of all knowledge, so to speak, is also not in any way constant.

What knowledge there once was is not necessarily what there is today, and so, I wonder.

And I don't have a problem with angels, perry!

Why shouldn't they exist, too?

After all, we do!
Livyjr
Politics

"Critics say Frist using religion for political ends - Connection to groups may be sign of future run for higher office"

The Associated Press
Updated: 4:07 p.m. ET April 23, 2005

WASHINGTON - It may seem like Sen. Bill Frist has found religion in recent weeks.

At least, that’s what critics say about the Senate majority leader’s recent alignment with social conservative groups on high-profile issues.

Their charge is that Frist is playing to religious groups to gather support for political issues — and potentially for a future presidential race.


The Tennessee Republican took some heat when Congress stepped into a legal fight over the life of a brain-damaged Florida woman last month.

The critics have grown louder since he agreed to participate in an event on Sunday organized by Christian groups trying to rally churchgoers to support ending the judicial filibuster.

“He seems to be going out of his way to pander to the radical religious right leaders,” said Ralph Neas, president of People for the American Way, a liberal group that has worked to block several of President Bush’s appointments to the courts.

“Many people have commented that it seems to be commensurate with his aspirations to be president of the United States.”

Sunday broadcast

Sunday’s event, organized by the conservative Family Research Council, will be in a Louisville, Ky., church and broadcast across the country.

Fliers for “Justice Sunday” charge the filibuster is “being used against people of faith.”


Frist’s office says he plans to submit a four-minute videotape with the same Constitution-focused message he has given other groups.

But his participation has raised loud protests.

The Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee said it sent Frist a petition Friday signed by 20,000 people asking him “to abandon such dishonest and irresponsible tactics that politicize faith, abuse power and drown out the voice of ordinary Americans.”

The leaders of several nationwide denominations on Friday joined the chorus urging Frist to reconsider his participation in the event.

Among them was the Rev. Clifton Kirkpatrick, the stated clerk of the Presbyterian Church (USA), Frist’s denomination.


Most people said Frist has the right to join Christian groups or ask for their backing on important issues but called the rhetoric surrounding Sunday’s event inflammatory.

“His presence is giving credibility to people who have made a stark political issue a litmus test for judging religion,” said C. Welton Gaddy, president of the Washington-based Interfaith Alliance and the pastor of a Louisiana church.

Shift in focus?

Frist is a conservative who has consistently supported the type of issues that rally right-leaning Christian groups.

He was a leader of the opposition to gay marriage, and when he laid out an agenda on the first day of the 109th Congress in January, he mentioned “marriage, families and a culture of life that protects human dignity at every stage of development.”

A Frist spokesman said the Constitution has been the senator’s constant concern during the filibuster fight, and his position on Terri Schiavo, the brain-damaged Florida woman, was “clear and consistent” throughout the debate.

But some say there’s been a shift in his focus.

“If you think about Bill Frist since he was majority leader, his strong suit was his intersection of science and medicine ... and his rational good government,” said James Hudnut-Beumler, dean of Vanderbilt University’s Divinity School and a scholar of American religious history.

“I think that’s still there, but to lead on a national stage, you have people who press you to come out on other issues and fronts.”

Higher aspirations?
Frist has said he will give up his Senate seat when his term ends next year, but he hasn’t answered — or discouraged — speculation that he will run for president in 2008.

Luis Lugo, director of the nonpartisan, non-advocacy Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, said religion and religious groups are crucial factors for any candidate, Democrat or Republican.

“Any politician ... who aspires to public office ... has to come to terms with the fact that religious conservatives are a critically important part of the Republican Party,” he said.


Tapping into the political force of a religious group, however, can be a divisive process when closely held moral values are at stake.

The filibuster debate comes up at a time when the nation is vociferously arguing over whether to trust “activist” judges.

“It’s a little bit of a third rail,” said Hudnut-Beumler.

Frist is “hoping to draw some power from it."

"Electric trains do draw power from the third rail, but people sometimes do get electrocuted.”

Frist belongs to Presbyterian churches in Washington and Tennessee, has taken medical mission trips to Africa and other parts of the world, and is a regular at the National Prayer Breakfast.

And even critics say it isn’t possible to discern a person’s true faith.

But Gaddy said he is concerned about “the transition from religion as a source of values and wisdom, to religion as a strategy for passing legislation or winning an election.”


“I don’t judge people’s motives,” he said.

“If Sen. Frist sees this as an essential step in launching a presidential campaign, he’s more involved in a stumble than a step.”
Livyjr
QUOTE(jeffmoskin @ Feb 16 2005, 07:27 PM)
Ahhh, ChoicePoint!

A name from the past.

A name that shall live in infamy.

Not having an honest press here in OUR America, from across the Pond comes Greg Palast, reporter for the UK Guardian, author of "The best Government Money Can Buy:"

Here's is how the Bush family stole Florida from Al Gore:

Florida's flawed "voter-cleansing" program - Salon.com's politics story of the year
www.Salon.com

Monday, December 4, 2000

If Vice President Al Gore is wondering where his Florida votes went, rather than sift through a pile of chad, he might want to look at a "scrub list" of 173,000 names targeted to be knocked off the Florida voter registry by a division of the office of Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris.

A close examination suggests thousands of voters may have lost their right to vote based on a flaw-ridden list that included purported "felons" provided by a private firm with tight Republican ties.

Politics

"Voting agency chairman quits in protest - Says government has not shown commitment to reform"

The Associated Press
Updated: 2:11 p.m. ET April 22, 2005

WASHINGTON - The first chairman of the federal voting agency created after the 2000 election dispute is resigning, saying the government has not shown enough of a commitment to reform.

DeForest Soaries, a Baptist minister, said Friday that his resignation from the commission created by Congress would take effect next week.

Soaries, 53, cited personal reasons for resigning and said he wants to spend more time with his family in New Jersey — but he added the decision was prompted in part by a lack of support for the commission from Congress and the federal government.

“All four of us had to work without staff, without offices, without resources."

"I don’t think our sense of personal obligation has been matched by a corresponding sense of commitment to real reform from the federal government,” Soaries told The Associated Press.


Soaries is a Republican who was the White House’s pick to join the Election Assistance Commission, which was created by the Help America Vote Act of 2002 to help states enact voting reforms.

A former secretary of state of New Jersey, Soaries was confirmed to the commission by the Senate in December 2003 and elected the independent agency’s first chairman by his three fellow commissioners.

His term as chairman ended in January 2005 and since then he’s stayed on as a commission member.

Soaries and the other commissioners complained from the beginning that the commission was underfunded and neglected by the federal lawmakers who created it.
anderson_perry
QUOTE
Luis Lugo, director of the nonpartisan, non-advocacy Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, said religion and religious groups are crucial factors for any candidate, Democrat or Republican.

“Any politician ... who aspires to public office ... has to come to terms with the fact that religious conservatives are a critically important part of the Republican Party,” he said.


sad but true....

- perry
anderson_perry
QUOTE
“All four of us had to work without staff, without offices, without resources."

"I don’t think our sense of personal obligation has been matched by a corresponding sense of commitment to real reform from the federal government,” Soaries told The Associated Press.

Soaries is a Republican who was the White House’s pick to join the Election Assistance Commission, which was created by the Help America Vote Act of 2002 to help states enact voting reforms.

A former secretary of state of New Jersey, Soaries was confirmed to the commission by the Senate in December 2003 and elected the independent agency’s first chairman by his three fellow commissioners.

His term as chairman ended in January 2005 and since then he’s stayed on as a commission member.

Soaries and the other commissioners complained from the beginning that the commission was underfunded and neglected by the federal lawmakers who created it.


roflmao.gif

- perry
Morambar in TX
QUOTE(jeffmoskin @ Apr 24 2005, 08:32 AM)
Well, Morambar, I have to straighten this out a little bit:

1. While Ike was playing golf, it was Sherman Adams, not Nixon, who    was "running" the country. Ike hated Nixon - - never even invited him and Pat to dinner once in 8 years. One reason he hated him was that Ike had intended for Earl Warren to be VP. But Nixon showed up 2 weeks ahead of Warren at the Convention and had the spot all sewn up by the time Warren arrived. Ike made him Chief Justice as a consolation prize.

He also hated Nixon because he was a sneaky bastard. In any event, Ike was dead set against Americans in foreign wars. Remember who ended Korea? The "aid" Ike gave deGaulle for Indochina was minimal: just to show support - - not take over for the French. We got started in Vietnam under JFK but only on a small scale. Speculation has it that Kennedy was going to "declare victory" as a boost for re-election and withdraw most of the US troops. But then he went to Dallas to help shore up the Democratic Party (why couldn't Johnson have done that?  Why else would Kennedy have agreed to have a crude SOB like him on the ticket if not for keeping Texas together?)

2. Johnson was the consummate politician and only made his "I will not seek" speech after concluding that he could not win the election. And he hated close elections, especially if he couldn't steal the votes he needed to win. Like Kennedy did in Illinois in 1960. But Johnson was not stupid. He realised (too late) that all the military advisors had been telling him lies from day one. His answer was to bully his way to victory - - more troops, more bombing, more money - - but it didn't work. Finally, seeing himself losing in 68, he simply chose not to run.

3. I don't really see a JFK, RFK, MLK link, other than the latter two were, IMHO, very special people whose continued existance would have made for a much better America than we now have.
*


If you have a chance, you might want to pick up a copy of "The Drew Pearson Diaries." Very insightful and informing. Nixon got on the ticket as an anti-Commie, and that decision was long before the convention. Ikes problem was he wanted to be President, he just didn't want to BE President. If it hadn't been for Truman we would probably have seen the '49 inauguration of DEMOCRATIC President Eisenhower (and the world might be a much better place.) On the subject of LBJ, they had their differences, but agreed on policy, besides which, who nominated JFK for VP in '56?

We got started in a proxy fight under Eisenhower and if he didn't know what was really going on there, well, that's true of most of his administration. JFK just made Americas commitment real instead of verbal. There's a story that a memo made it to JFK's desk that wasn't supposed to, listing the projected casualties for the next year. This, combined with a visit by MLK informing the President that, at the time, most of the Vietnam casualties were black soldiers who had joined the Army as the only realistic hope of providing for thier families, and that it had better stop if he wanted their support for reelection, prompted JFK to issue the order that we were getting out. That was in April or May of '63, and you know the rest.

Your analysis of LBJ's view of the war is dead on I think. So why did he stay in? The same reason as JFK: he felt an obligation to the Vietnamese people to honor Ikes commitment. Vietnam BROKE LBJ. Personal defeat was one thing, but the war scuttled the Great Society, and was the beginning of the end for American liberalism for at least a generation. Since then we've been fighting a holding action to keep as much of the New Deal as we can; SS and FDIC are about the only things left since the gold standard went bye-bye under Nixon and took minimum wage with it, and 41 got rid of FSLIC. I brought up the '68 election to illustrate one point: when RFK was shot he was no threat to an incumbent who refused to run, but a very large threat to the man his brother beat in '60. The shock is not the connection between JFK, RFK, and MLK; the shock is that Wallace was probably shot for the same reason: to insure Nixons victory in '68. Of course, another Kennedy might have beaten him in '72, but....

I see Livyjr IS familiar with Greg Palast. Wondered if I might have been preaching to the choir.
Morambar in TX
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Apr 24 2005, 01:53 PM)
And to spend time talking about how or why does not bring them back, and it only distracts me, anyway, away from what is happening today, and what might happen tomarrow.

My thoughts, anyway!
*


I only mention it because what happened then is what's happening today. The leadership of the Greedy Old Party has been an unbroken chain of succession since 1952, and the goals have not changed, which is why, except for the repeal of FDIC vetoed by Clinton, they have mostly been realized.
anderson_perry
QUOTE
Chapter 7


Of how Enoch was taken on to the second heaven


1 And those men took me and led me up on to the second heaven, and showed me darkness, greater than earthly darkness, and there I saw prisoners hanging, watched, awaiting the great and boundless judgment, and these angels were dark-looking, more than earthly darkness, and incessantly making weeping through all hours.

2 And I said to the men who were with me: Wherefore are these incessantly tortured? They answered me: These are God’s apostates, who obeyed not God’s commands, but took counsel with their own will, and turned away with their prince, who also is fastened on the fifth heaven.

3 And I felt great pity for them, and they saluted me, and said to me: Man of God, pray for us to the Lord; and I answered to them: Who am I, a mortal man, that I should pray for angels? Who knows whither I go, or what will befall me? Or who will pray for me?


i just happen to read this... make no wonder human kind is so religious, all aliens had to do was run a few trips to scare the heck out of some unsuspecting earthling and whela, instant world wide religion.

- perry
Morambar in TX
QUOTE(anderson_perry @ Apr 24 2005, 04:00 PM)
what i find interesting is that i first heard of prescott bush while reviewing MJ5 or the majestic five, also known as the folks that tried to minimize the events of Roswell and other related incidents....

- perry
*


Still can't document any non/connection between Vannevar and the other Bushes. I did a search an hour and a half ago, and when I clicked on "Vannevar Bush family tree" I got directed to a bunch of porn and my computer crashed....
Morambar in TX
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Apr 24 2005, 05:02 PM)
I wonder, perry, myself about knowledge and abilities that the "ancients" had, that surpass some of our abilities today, in the field of engineering, for example, and in the knowledge that the ancient Taoists had about the human body itself, in an age where no modern scientific equipment, such as electron microscopes, existed that would have allowed those ancients to "see" some of what they knew to be.

I always find this thing of "knowledge" to be an interesting equation, because "knowledge" never seems to be distributed equally among all peoples in all places, and the "sum" of all knowledge, so to speak, is also not in any way constant.

What knowledge there once was is not necessarily what there is today, and so, I wonder.

And I don't have a problem with angels, perry!

Why shouldn't they exist, too?

After all, we do!
*


Have you heard about the aboriginal African tribe with a religion in which the white dwarf orbiting Sirius figures prominently? They've known about for centuries; we found it in the '60s.
Morambar in TX
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Apr 24 2005, 05:29 PM)
Politics

"Critics say Frist using religion for political ends - Connection to groups may be sign of future run for higher office"


I still thnk tomhye has the right idea on how to fix this (refer to "April 24th Anniversary of genocide against Armenian Christians.") Covering up the first genocide to be called such to get your pipeline/military concerns taken care of, one perpetrated AGAINST CHRISTIANS, by going after your political opponents is the hiegth of hypocrisy. It also happens to BE anti-Christian. The Anti-Christ persecuted the Church of Smyrna; now his allies do the same, but then, the Bible doesn't say the Anti-Christ will abolish religion, but CLAIM TO FULFILL IT.
anderson_perry
QUOTE(Morambar in TX @ Apr 24 2005, 09:16 PM)
Have you heard about the aboriginal African tribe with a religion in which the white dwarf orbiting Sirius figures prominently?  They've known about for centuries; we found it in the '60s.
*


wow

- perry
anderson_perry
QUOTE(Morambar in TX @ Apr 24 2005, 09:12 PM)
Still can't document any non/connection between Vannevar and the other Bushes.  I did a search an hour and a half ago, and when I clicked on "Vannevar Bush family tree" I got directed to a bunch of porn and my computer crashed....
*


i looked it up and got the coolest link... GZigZag - A Platform for Cybertext Experiments

i'll try to remember it for future applications. i'm wondering if Vannevar is in any way related to GW.

- perry
anderson_perry
On the Trail of the Memex
Vannevar Bush, Weblogs and the Google Galaxy

QUOTE
"Hypertext as mediated by the Web browser has not proved to embody the qualities of the ideal post-structural text longed for by literary theorists such as George Landow; neither has the World Wide Web fulfilled the document-association function of the memex, the hypothetical research tool Vannevar Bush described in his 1945 essay, As We May Think. Bush’s memex was not merely a form of photo-mechanical hypertext, but also a means for the full-scale transfer of complex collaborative thought processes, as encoded by individual researchers via their own personal document association schemas. While weblogs, the most influential textual genre truly native to the World Wide Web, do facilitate the exchange of information across the Internet, that information must be carefully filtered in order to be useful. Google’s February 2003 purchase of the popular weblogging platform Blogger signals a shift towards content production that may create a conflict of interest; nevertheless, Google’s proven ability to mine the data encoded in annotated trails of linked documents may create the synergy necessary to fulfill Vannevar Bush’s vision."


another one

- perry
anderson_perry
this is cool

- perry
Morambar in TX
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Apr 23 2005, 05:05 PM)
I saw your comment earlier, Morambar, but did not have an opportunity to address it at that time, and one of my thoughts is that your comment says much about you, if you know about this thing, and its impact on us today, if there might be one!

I am just coming back here right now from Mr. A.B.'s "FDR v. George W. Bush" thread, and earlier today, I was thinking that the Bush's and FDR have in essence been at war themselves since WWII, and that war is ideological, where FDR had one distinct point of view about the activities of George Herbert Walker and Prescott "Cottie" Bush in alleged connection with the National Socialists of Germany in the 1930's, and they had another.

SO!

There is no real surprise in the minds of many that these Nazis were brought over here, by OUR government, after WWII, and FDR's death.

But many people today do not even know of what you are talking about here, and I would be very surprised if any young people do, and so!

Operation Paperclip
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
(Redirected from Project paperclip)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_papercl

Allen Dulles (Op architect)

External links

http://www.wsmr.army.mil/pao/FactSheets/V2/v-2.htm

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip"

Bush's friend and fellow "bonesman" Knight Woolley, another partner at BBH, wrote to Averill Harriman in January 1933 warning of problems with CSSC after the Poles started their drive to nationalise the plant.

"The Consolidated Silesian Steel Company situation has become increasingly complicated, and I have accordingly brought in Sullivan and Cromwell, in order to be sure that our interests are protected," wrote Knight.

"After studying the situation Foster Dulles is insisting that their man in Berlin get into the picture and obtain the information which the directors here should have."

"You will recall that Foster is a director and he is particularly anxious to be certain that there is no liability attaching to the American directors."

But the ownership of the CSSC between 1939 when the Germans invaded Poland and 1942 when the US government vested UBC and SAC is not clear.
*


I totally missed that earlier, sorry. Let's just see here, John Foster Dulles was a director of CSSC and his brother, who ultimately ran the CIA at the time of JFK's assassination and sat on the Warren commission, directed Operation Paperclip. Conclusion: The Nazis weren't defeated in 1945, they just immigrated, and NOT to Argentina. So what do we do about it?

BTW, young is a relative term. I'm only 30, but I have an intense interest in history, particularly since November 11, 1918, for obvious reasons. For the record, I've been relatively restrained, if you can believe it. Remind me to give you my rant on how the US became "Illuminati Central" after the Civil War ended. OK, five days later when they shot Lincoln; close enough for (shadow) government work.
Livyjr
QUOTE(Morambar in TX @ Apr 25 2005, 01:30 AM)
I totally missed that earlier, sorry. 

Let's just see here, John Foster Dulles was a director of CSSC and his brother, who ultimately ran the CIA at the time of JFK's assassination and sat on the Warren commission, directed Operation Paperclip. 

Conclusion: The Nazis weren't defeated in 1945, they just immigrated, and NOT to Argentina. 

So what do we do about it?

Well, here you're "reading my mail", as the saying goes.

The Nazis did lose Germany and some other countries in 1945, and that is for sure, so in some senses they were "defeated", although to me, looking back from the perspective of now, I would say all they really suffered were some set-backs!

They lost Germany, but they gained access to America, and so they, like Joe Hill, never died; they just reconstituted as something else, and as far as I am concerned, they are still here, just harder to recognize, although I have to wonder when you see such notables as Prince Harry of Jolly Olde jumping some kind of gun, by getting drunk or whacked out on whatever the "PRINCE" was whacked out on in the photos I saw of him in his own Nazi gear.

SO?

Morambar, what do we do about it?

Damed if I know!

I think that's partly why we have this forum, to think on those things.

And as to spending time talking about the Illuminati, and whether they exist is entertaining, but to me, it serves no overt purpose in this particular thread, which is more current events-related, i.e., things that are happening, or might be, and even most of those we still can't do much about, but we can at least make the general public more aware!

If we start talking Illuminati Conspiracies in here, it defeats the purpose of the thread in the first place, is my thought, although in private, I do read about them, and think about them, although not overlong, as I have other more pressing things to deal with, like whether George W. Bush might nuke France before or after New Foundland, and are we ever going to hear who really did pop that Italian guy over there in Iraq, or is that all the way under the rug now, never to be heard from again?

As to conspiracies, of course they exist, and if the Illuminati really do exist, which is unprovable, and if they too are a conspiracy, which is also unprovable, then they are simply just one more, and not the only one!

I think you will find, as you go on, Morambar, that "conspiracies" in the world are as common as dirt, and they exist because they are a part of the "human condition".

One of my favorites, and perhaps Karl Rove's as well, is the "Cataline Conspiracy" in the last days, or latter days anyway, of the Roman Republic, where the pigeon-breasted Cicero was coming to the Roman Senate each day, dressed in armor, and was continually "thumping the tub" against Cataline, and some others that he wanted to destroy, by accusing them of conspiracy against the "state".

When you think on that, it reminds you of George W. Bush going after Saddam Hussein every day in the media, so that young George of America could then justify going to Iraq to take the oil which is there.

Conspiracies are as common as dirt!

What do we do about them?

Don't get run down by them in the first place is a good place to start!
Livyjr
And speaking about "current events" that are probably, hell, most likely are part of a "conspiracy" that we are presently unable to do much about, even though it is unfolding right before OUR eyes as we speak back and forth in here, we have as follows:

Politics - U. S. Congress

"GOP Stressing Constitution in Judge Battle"

Mon Apr 25, 1:53 AM ET

By DAVID ESPO, AP Special Correspondent

WASHINGTON - Buffeted by poor poll numbers, Senate Republicans are stressing the Constitution rather than religion or retribution against activist judges as the reason to deny Democrats the right to block votes on President Bush's court nominees.

"What I do not want to do is cross the line and say those who oppose these nominees are people who lack faith," Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., told "Fox News Sunday."

"I don't believe that."

"I don't think that's appropriate."

Graham spoke several hours before Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist told a group of social conservatives he wants no part of retaliation against sitting judges.

"When we think judicial decisions are outside mainstream American values, we will say so," he told a rally dubbed "Justice Sunday — Stopping The Filibuster Against People of Faith."

"But we must also be clear that the balance of power among all three branches requires respect — not retaliation."

"I won't go along with that," he added in implicit rejection of recent comments by House Majority Leader Tom DeLay.

Frist made no mention of religion in his four-minute taped appearance.


Instead, the Tennessee Republican, Graham and other GOP senators said repeatedly Sunday that their goal was to assure fairness for Bush's controversial nominees — a yes or no vote in the Senate.

"If these senators are not prepared to fulfill their constitutional responsibilities, then why are they here in the first place?" said Frist.

The Republicans framed their rhetoric several days after receiving the results of a private poll that showed only 37 percent support for their plan to strip Democrats of the ability to filibuster judicial appointees.

Opposed were 51 percent.

The same survey indicated only about 20 percent believe the GOP claim that Bush is the first president in history whose court appointees have been subjected to filibusters, a tactic in which opponents can prevent a vote unless supporters gain 60 votes.

The poll did contain some encouraging news for Republicans.

Even among self-described Democrats, support for granting court appointees a yes-or-no vote exceeded 70 percent, according to officials who spoke on condition of anonymity.

No showdown seems imminent, despite earlier indications from Republicans that they might try to force the issue before the end of the week.

Republicans argue they can change the Senate's filibuster procedure on a simple majority vote, and Sen. Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the chief GOP vote counter, told CBS' "Face the Nation" his party would prevail.

No Democrat disputed that Sunday.

Republicans hold 55 seats in the 100-member Senate.

So far, only two — Sens. John McCain or Arizona and Lincoln Chafee of Rhode Island — have broken ranks.

Others have expressed concern about a move to change practices in place for decades.

One Democrat, Sen. Joseph Biden of Delaware, talked on ABC's "This Week" of a possible compromise in which Democrats would "let a number" of Bush's contested appointments win confirmation while "the two most extreme not go through."

He mentioned no names.

The response from the two Senate party leaders seemed tepid at best.

Frist's spokesman declined comment, while Democratic Leader Harry Reid of Nevada said through an aide that he remains open to compromise.

Democrats confirmed more than 200 judicial appointments Bush made during his first term, but blocked 10 appeals court nominees they deemed too conservative to warrant lifetime appointments.

Once re-elected, the president resubmitted seven of the names.

Democrats have threatened to filibuster them again.

Of the seven, three were appointed to the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals.

Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., chairman of the Judiciary Committee, referred without elaboration to "a lot of negotiations to try to get three judges from Michigan" — Henry Saad, Richard Griffin and David McTeague — confirmed.

Specter was interviewed on CNN's "Late Edition."

The other four judges include William G. Myers III, named to the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals; William Pryor Jr., picked for the 11th Circuit; Janice Rogers Brown, tabbed for the Circuit Court for the District of Columbia; and Priscilla Owen, whom Bush named to the 5th Circuit.

Frist singled out Owen for praise in his remarks before the rally organized by the Family Research Council on Sunday, a possible indication that he has decided to make her the test case on the filibuster issue.

Speaking of her and the six others, Frist recalled that Reid earlier accused him of pursuing radical Republican policies with his campaign to banish judicial filibusters.

"I don't think it's radical to ask senators to vote," he said.

"I don't think it's radical to expect senators to fulfill their constitutional responsibilities."
Livyjr
SO!

There we have the Courts, or more properly, who is going to be sitting on the bench if and when we ever have to go to court to secure our rights, and what is going to be on the mind of the judge when, or if, these days, at least up here in the federal Northern District of New York, we are at all able to even get there, in the first place!

Which brings us to this next story from the whacky and zany world of George W. Bush:

White House - AP

"Bush Seeks Relief From Record Oil Prices"

48 minutes ago

By JENNIFER LOVEN, Associated Press Writer

CRAWFORD, Texas - President Bush is seeking relief from record-high gas prices and support for Middle East peace as he opens his Texas ranch to Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, the world's largest oil producer.

Bush said he'll make clear Monday that it's not in Saudi Arabia's interests to keep oil prices high.

"If they pinch the world economy too much, it'll affect their ability to sell crude oil in the long run," he said in a television interview last week.

The president also said he's looking for "a straight answer" on how close the Saudis are to reaching production capacity.

"I don't think they're pumping flat out," Bush said.


Bush's goal of spreading democracy across the Arab world also faces a difficult test with Saudi Arabia, a longtime ally ruled by absolute monarchy.

Traditionally Bush holds news conferences with visiting foreign leaders, but there will be none during this visit because Abdullah rarely talks with reporters.

Monday's meeting marks another step in a quickening pace of U.S. involvement in the Mideast.

Two weeks ago Bush met at the ranch with Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and said Israel should abandon plans for new construction of Jewish settlements in the Palestinian territories.

The Saudis believe the administration's strong support for Israel harms prospects for Middle East peace.

Despite the difficult matters, Robert Jordan, a former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia, said the stage is set for a much friendlier meeting Monday than three years ago when Abdullah first visited the ranch.

For one thing, the late Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, a polarizing figure, is now gone — replaced by an elected president of the Palestinians, Mahmoud Abbas.

Abbas will have his own meeting with Bush in the next few weeks.

To lay the groundwork for Monday's meeting, Vice President Dick Cheney talked with Abdullah over lunch Sunday in a Dallas hotel.

Jordan noted that Saudi officials also have played an instrumental role in persuading Syria to withdraw its troops from Lebanon.

They have been supportive of increasing oil production at crucial times.

And Abdullah has taken some initial steps toward introducing democracy to Saudi Arabia by holding elections for municipal councils, even though women's rights remain severely restricted, political parties are banned and press freedoms are limited.

Likely to be on Abdullah's mind is a Saudi proposal that would give Israel normal relations with Arab nations only in exchange for its return to its borders before it captured the West Bank, Gaza Strip and east Jerusalem in the 1967 Middle East war.

Although Arab leaders last month endorsed that approach, Jordan said Abdullah — well aware of Bush's position that the "new realties on the ground" of Jewish settlements make a full Israeli withdrawal unrealistic — is unlikely to come in "with some flat demand."

Bush, meanwhile, hopes to nudge Abdullah into giving Abbas additional financial and political support for efforts to rein in militants and build the infrastructure for a viable, stable Palestinian democracy.

The global cost of oil will be at the top of Bush's agenda, with prices at the pump now over $2.20 nationwide.

Saudi Oil Minister Ali Naimi promised last week to increase production capacity to 12.5 million barrels per day by 2009 from the current 11 million limit and, if necessary, eventually develop a capacity of 15 million barrels per day.

The kingdom now pumps about 9.5 million barrels daily.

The best-case scenario for Bush, Jordan said, would to secure a commitment from Abdullah to explore additional oil fields and invest in additional production capacity.

The United States could offer to help by providing technical expertise or helping to build storage facilities for reserves, he said.

Counter-terrorism efforts are another key topic.

Bush's White House-based homeland security adviser, Fran Townsend, is meeting with her Saudi counterparts on the sidelines.
jeffmoskin
QUOTE(Morambar in TX @ Apr 24 2005, 05:39 PM)
If you have a chance, you might want to pick up a copy of "The Drew Pearson Diaries."  Very insightful and informing.  Nixon got on the ticket as an anti-Commie, and that decision was long before the convention.  Ikes problem was he wanted to be President, he just didn't want to BE President.  If it hadn't been for Truman we would probably have seen the '49 inauguration of DEMOCRATIC President Eisenhower (and the world might be a much better place.)  On the subject of LBJ, they had their differences, but agreed on policy, besides which, who nominated JFK for VP in '56? 

We got started in a proxy fight under Eisenhower and if he didn't know what was really going on there, well, that's true of most of his administration.  JFK just made Americas commitment real instead of verbal.  There's a story that a memo made it to JFK's desk that wasn't supposed to, listing the projected casualties for the next year.  This, combined with a visit by MLK informing the President that, at the time, most of the Vietnam casualties were black soldiers who had joined the Army as the only realistic hope of providing for thier families, and that it had better stop if he wanted their support for reelection, prompted JFK to issue  the order that we were getting out.  That was in April or May of '63, and you know the rest.

Your analysis of LBJ's view of the war is dead on I think.  So why did he stay in?  The same reason as JFK: he felt an obligation to the Vietnamese people to honor Ikes commitment.  Vietnam BROKE LBJ.  Personal defeat was one thing, but the war scuttled the Great Society, and was the beginning of the end for American liberalism for at least a generation.  Since then we've been fighting a holding action to keep as much of the New Deal as we can; SS and FDIC are about the only things left since the gold standard went bye-bye under Nixon and took minimum wage with it, and 41 got rid of FSLIC.  I brought up the '68 election to illustrate one point:  when RFK was shot he was no threat to an incumbent who refused to run, but a very large threat to the man his brother beat in '60.  The shock is not the connection between JFK, RFK, and MLK; the shock is that Wallace was probably shot for the same reason: to insure Nixons victory in '68.  Of course, another Kennedy might have beaten him in '72, but....

I see Livyjr IS familiar with Greg Palast.  Wondered if I might have been preaching to the choir.
*

WOW!

A very interesting post.

I never thought of WHY Wallace got shot. He still won the "deep" south, which was only 46 EVs, and would NOT have made the difference. Nixon beat HHH because the latter NEVER stood up to the folly of the war. He was too much of a party loyalists to go against LBJ. I only wish that he had; he would have made a GREAT pres.

Your comment about "black soldiers who had joined the Army as the only realistic hope of providing for thier families" is so sad because it is STILL true. Only now, the cannon fodder category has expanded to include poor people of all colors. I guess you could say the Army has become and "equal opportunity destroyer."

I am convinced that if RFK had not been killed he would certainly have been elected; that if elected he would have ended the war; that he would have joined with MLK to make America "live up to its creed."

The destructive power of the gun, indeed.
anderson_perry
QUOTE(jeffmoskin @ Apr 25 2005, 07:33 AM)
WOW!

A very interesting post.

I never thought of WHY Wallace got shot. He still won the "deep" south, which was only 46 EVs, and would NOT have made the difference. Nixon beat HHH because the latter NEVER stood up to the folly of the war. He was too much of a party loyalists to go against LBJ. I only wish that he had; he would have made a GREAT pres.

Your comment about "black soldiers who had joined the Army as the only realistic hope of providing for thier families" is so sad because it is STILL true. Only now, the cannon fodder category has expanded to include poor people of all colors. I guess you could say the Army has become and "equal opportunity destroyer."

I am convinced that if RFK had not been killed he would certainly have been elected; that if elected he would have ended the war; that he would have joined with MLK to make America "live up to its creed."

The destructive power of the gun, indeed.
*


i am annoyed today.

i don't know why, i just am

i feel that i've been dragged over the coals and judged totally unfairly and all based on what i may have said either here or elsewhere

it's most annoying, i am greatly annoyed

how about this, how about i not say a damned thing anymore

would that suite your fancy

thanks

- perry
Livyjr
QUOTE(Morambar in TX @ Apr 24 2005, 06:39 PM)
If you have a chance, you might want to pick up a copy of "The Drew Pearson Diaries." 

Very insightful and informing. 

Nixon got on the ticket as an anti-Commie, and that decision was long before the convention. 

We got started in a proxy fight under Eisenhower and if he didn't know what was really going on there, well, that's true of most of his administration. 

JFK just made Americas commitment real instead of verbal.
 

And here I have to make a point that this thread is called the "Livyjr Files" for this reason, that I, personally, and we, meaning myself, jeffmoskin and Mr. A.B. especially were "as there" for this stuff that was going on since WWII as Drew Pearson, or anyone else, and so, while we are all voracious readers, or digesters of information, and would read Drew Pearson, in reality, this thread is OUR Diary, that of the common man, and woman in America who was also there, but didn't get to write any books about it, until now!

When I started this thread in Volume I, I made that point right off, that this was "citizen-written history" in here, as seen through the eyes of the common person!

As for me, I was in Viet Nam!

I was physically there, actually there, seeing things, doing things, and talking to people who were from there, about us!

SO!

I have my own knowledge of Viet Nam, and in truth, that war started when the U.S. gave the Vietnamese back to the French at the end of WWII, as though the Vietnamese were nothing more than nothing at all!

That ill-fated decision in the 1940's cost a lot of American lives afterwards, and for what?

And most certainly, Ike knew what was going on in Viet Nam!

You play Eisenhower for a fool, and he was not!

In fact, nobody back then, at least at his level, did not have their attention riveted on to what was playing out in Dien Bien Phu between Giap and the French!

If you read Bernard Fall's "Hell in a very small place", you will see how much Ike knew of Viet Nam back then, as did all Americans who were alive back then!

I certainly retain vivid memories of Dien Bien Phu!

The same with "anti-communism" and Millhouse "Tricky Dick" Nixxon!

In those days, "anti-Communism" was all the rage, and I certainly remember as a child being exposed to all of this "anti-Communist" propaganda in school, in the form of films.

And politicians like Millhouse "Tricky Dick" hitched their wagon to that, the way the Frist's of today are hitching theirs to religion!

It's the "gig" of the moment!

And so, that's how I see things anyway!
Livyjr
QUOTE(anderson_perry @ Apr 25 2005, 03:06 PM)
i am annoyed today.

i don't know why, i just am

i feel that i've been dragged over the coals and judged totally unfairly and all based on what i may have said either here or elsewhere

it's most annoying, i am greatly annoyed

how about this, how about i not say a damned thing anymore

would that suite your fancy

thanks


- perry

Well, perry, as for me, I generally practice tolerance, and I'm not into telling people to either speak, or shut up, and so, it likely is not me that you want to be upset with.

Not having you upset with me, perry, would suit my own fancy about as well as anything that I can think of, thank you very much!

SO!

There's my point of view!
jeffmoskin
QUOTE(anderson_perry @ Apr 25 2005, 02:06 PM)
i am annoyed today.

i don't know why, i just am

i feel that i've been dragged over the coals and judged totally unfairly and all based on what i may have said either here or elsewhere

it's most annoying, i am greatly annoyed

how about this, how about i not say a damned thing anymore

would that suite your fancy

thanks

- perry
*

If I was a part of said coal dragging, I humbly apologize. I for one like reading your posts, perry.
Livyjr
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Apr 25 2005, 03:13 PM)
And here I have to make a point that this thread is called the "Livyjr Files" for this reason, that I, personally, and we, meaning myself, jeffmoskin and Mr. A.B. especially were "as there" for this stuff that was going on since WWII as Drew Pearson, or anyone else, and so, while we are all voracious readers, or digesters of information, and would read Drew Pearson, in reality, this thread is OUR Diary, that of the common man, and woman in America who was also there, but didn't get to write any books about it, until now!

When I started this thread in Volume I, I made that point right off, that this was "citizen-written history" in here, as seen through the eyes of the common person!

As for me, I was in Viet Nam!

I was physically there, actually there, seeing things, doing things, and talking to people who were from there, about us!

SO!

FROM THE BEGINNING:

Good day all!

My name if Livyjr, and I am a recent arrival here from the former John Kerry forum, which I thought revolutionized communications between ordinary citizens in America, in ways unseen or likely unheard of since the Forum of Rome, back in the days of my namesake, Titus Livius, or plain Livy, some two thousand years in the Republic of Rome, and then in the ensuing Empire under Augustus, son of Julius Caesar.

Why Livy?

Well, for the context, mainly.

And who was Livy?

While a short biography of Livy follows, the fact is that Livy was around at the end of the Roman Republic, the time when Julius Caesar was killed, or assassinated, depending on your point of view, and Livy talked about or chronicled that time for us in the future to read about, and I am of a similar bent, only in here, talking about these days of our Republic of America, rather than the Forum of Rome.

What is history?

History is what we are doing in here right now, and what we are doing each and every minute of our collective days.

That is history!

We are history!

In Livy's day, 59 BC to 17 AD, simple people in Rome and Italy, for that matter, did not get to write history, and even come into the record by name.

The lives of the common man and woman of that era are largely lost to us two thousand years later in 2004.

Not so with us today, however, at least as long as these computer forums continue to exist, and a record continues to be made of the days of our passing, here in our America.


On the John Kerry Forum, we had many people dropping by from European countries, and probably many other places in the world as well, to read about our daily lives, because the world is a very large place, and it is very difficult for any of us to know much of what is happening around us just ten miles down the road, anymore, let alone across the great nation of America, which is over 3,000 miles from coast to coast, or across the world, for that matter.

When peoples of other nations can hear our own thoughts directly, without any filters imposed, then they learn about us as people, rather than a perceived ideology, and they see that in many ways, we are just like them.

This is good, because it serves to promote peace and harmony throughout the world in ways that our established governments seem totally unable to do.

Never before have we been able to have such a speedy dialogue across such great distances.


In 1969, for example, I was in Viet Nam, as a soldier, and then, it took over a week for any news from home to reach me, so that what I was reading was already old news!

If someone had been sick, or had died, it was long since over by the time that I read about it over there.

Now, 30 years later, I am communicating almost instantaneously with people across America and around the world.

To an older American like me, who was born into an era in America where there still were no telephones and televisions in many or most rural American homes, this instant internet communications is like a miracle!

So then the question is how to use the miracle and keep it as such!

Hence this thread!


On the John Kerry Forum, this same thread format had over ten thousand visitors, and so it survived the test of time over there, before the elections.

Will it do so here, now that the elections are over, and peoples' minds have gone on to new places?

Who knows?

Just have to wait and see.

But here is where I want to start anyway, with this initial posting, right after the history of Livy, of an article concerning George W. Bush, and what he is now promising us, the American people, for the next four years!

Will any of it happen?

Will any of us ever see one word of what he says come true?

Who knows?

We'll just have to keep coming back to our daily lives here in America day after day to find out, because while history is what we are doing right now in America, that only hints at what is to come; it does not tell us for certain what will transpire.

Only the passage to time can do that, tell us where we have been!
jeffmoskin
QUOTE(Abu Beacon @ Apr 24 2005, 07:23 AM)
Tim Russer's program starts in a few minutes. I try to watch that when I can, so I have just a moment now for one comment on the International Criminal Court.

If we had joined it, where would all of the fine upstanding officers who were in any way connected with Abu Ghraib be now?

Cleared of any responsibility just like this latest military court cleared them?

Sure. It was all the fault of the enlisted men.

I watched a program called Dr. Phil for a while last year. It was too soap opera like for me so I stopped watching it. However he used one statement many times that I like and agree with which is ---

" People that have nothing to hide, hide nothing. "

Do you agree with that, Mr. President?

A.B.
*


from MSNBC a few days ago:

Spain convicts Argentine in 'dirty war' crimes
Former naval officer had renounced earlier claims
The Associated Press
Updated: 8:33 a.m. ET April 19, 2005

MADRID, Spain - A Spanish court Tuesday found a former Argentine naval officer guilty of atrocities during his country’s “dirty war,” and sentenced him to 640 years in jail.


The conviction of Adolfo Scilingo, 58, came in Spain’s first trial of a person accused of committing human rights abuses in another country...


If Bush the lesser had not ERASED Clinton's signature from the Exec order joining the ICC, many US citizens might have been tried and convicted in absentia.

Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz for example.

And maybe Bush.
jeffmoskin
QUOTE(anderson_perry @ Apr 24 2005, 03:00 PM)
but isn't it interesting that the U.S. government has hundreds of billions of dollars to spend trying to hit one bullet with another.... despite the ever shrinking american dollar

*

I presume you refer to the "anti-balistic missile" program, or ABM for short. Actually, the US funded the Israelis to develop the "ARROW" ABM.

And it works! Read all about it.

http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/arrow_israel.html
anderson_perry
ok, i feel better now

i was just having a blond moment, they happen from time to time

thanks guys

- perry
jeffmoskin
QUOTE(anderson_perry @ Apr 25 2005, 03:14 PM)
ok, i feel better now

i was just having a blond moment, they happen from time to time

thanks guys

- perry
*

phew
Livyjr
QUOTE(jeffmoskin @ Apr 21 2005, 03:57 PM)
A pretty good "investment," wouldn't you say?

What I really think is that while George W. Bush is out there sending BILLIONS of OUR tax dollars over to Iraq to line pockets over there, that where I live in OUR America is going right to hell!

SO?

What country is it that George W. Bush is really the president of?

"Housing agencies' troubles mount - Crumbling and vacant buildings, debts plague group founded in 1982 to provide affordable homes"

By BRIAN NEARING, Staff writer, Albany, New York Times Union
First published: Saturday, April 23, 2005

ALBANY -- O.D. Pearson keeps a tidy house.

That's why he is so bothered by the landlord next door, a not-for-profit group that is the city's largest private owner of apartments for the poor.

Taking a break one afternoon this week after repainting his front steps, the 65-year-old Pearson looked with disgust at the two vacant, decrepit row houses marred by peeling yellow paint and boarded-up windows.

"They've been that way for 15 years."

"They had pigeons in there, cats going in and out, people breaking in, all of that," said Pearson, who bought his two-story home at 352 Livingston Ave in 1967.

He moved to Colonie in 1981 and rents out the property.

"My tenants were always complaining about it."

"I called and called them to do something about this," Pearson said of the building's owner.

"Finally, last year, they boarded up all the broken windows and took off the front stairs."

"I don't understand why they just don't tear it down."

In addition to troubling Pearson, the crumbling row houses symbolize the foundering condition of their owner, St. Joseph's Housing Corp.

Founded in 1982 with the mission of making affordable places for people to live, St. Joseph's grew quickly, using millions in public subsidies to buy and repair dozens of homes in Arbor Hill and West Hill.

It now owns more than 70 buildings containing 191 apartments.

But between 2000 and 2003, St. Joseph's lost more than a half-million dollars and now faces a mounting pile of mortgages, property taxes and other unpaid bills, financial records show.

A red flag came last summer when city officials removed a mother and four children from an apartment on Clinton Avenue that had a broken toilet, a rotting bathroom floor and no hot water.

St. Joseph's -- which routinely spends $1 million a year -- is now threatened with foreclosure by the city unless it immediately makes critical repairs and catches up on overdue city loans on almost two dozen buildings.

A dozen properties are so bad that the city has declared them uninhabitable.


One such wreck is a 132-year-old row house at 397 Clinton Ave., directly across from the new State Employees Federal Credit Union branch, which the city recruited in 2003 as part of efforts to help revitalize Arbor Hill.

Piles of moldy clothes and trash now litter the front of the boarded-up building.

A snapped-off maple tree lay on the ground near the front porch.

City Building and Codes Director Nicholas DiLello said another 27 buildings have been cited for more than 260 violations, ranging from broken toilets and exposed electrical wiring to faulty smoke alarms and inadequate heat.

The city has taken St. Joseph's to court for not fixing violations 35 times since last summer, said Deputy Fire Chief Robert Forezzi.

More than $4,500 in fines were imposed, although Forezzi couldn't say if they were paid.

Because so many of its apartments are falling apart, many people don't want to rent from St. Joseph's.

About half of its apartments are vacant, meaning less rent is coming in at the same time cash is needed for repairs.

"This has been going on for a long period," said Rose Brayboy, acting executive director at St. Joseph's since March 2004.

"This didn't happen in the last one, two or three years."

"Management here just didn't do what it was supposed to do."

"Years and years of that took its toll."

The same month Brayboy was hired, St. Joseph's founder and longtime board president, Peter Phelan, left in a leadership shake-up.

Last fall, the city padlocked his apartment because of squalid conditions.

This month, Latham-based Sunrise Management & Consulting was hired to review the problems, manage properties and help devise a rescue plan.

"I'm confident that we can turn things around," Brayboy said Friday.

She has a lot to fix.

Delinquent property taxes total almost $120,000, some as far back as 2001, according to county records.

Last year, St. Joseph's failed to pay property insurance premiums and lost a $4,000 judgment in state Supreme Court.

That led Albany County sheriff's deputies to seize cash from a St. Joseph's account at the State Employees Federal Credit Union.

On Tuesday, the city Community Development Agency issued an ultimatum:

Repair dozens of building code violations on 14 apartments in 30 days or the city would demand immediate repayment of more than $400,000 in loans that St. Joseph's used to buy the buildings.

The city also is insisting that six delinquent loans be repaid, some of which are eight months overdue.

Failure to pay or make the repairs could lead to eviction, the city warned.

"Over the years, they let things get away from them," said Community Development Director Joseph Montana.

He said the city learned only recently that St. Joseph's wasn't paying off several of its loans.

But financial records show a troubled past.

Unpaid bills nearly tripled to $288,000 from 2000 to 2003, the most current year for which financial records are available.

Debts such as unpaid rents also doubled to nearly $90,000.

During that same time, money spent on maintenance and repairs fell by nearly half, from $180,000 to $98,000 by 2003.

Brayboy said the corporation will need outside help to turn things around.

"We need to have a capital campaign."

"I hope people will rally around St. Joseph's," she said.

"Whatever was done here in the past, let those people account for that."

Brian Nearing can be reached at 454-5094 or by e-mail at bnearing@timesunion.com.
Livyjr
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Apr 25 2005, 05:10 PM)
What I really think is that while George W. Bush is out there sending BILLIONS of OUR tax dollars over to Iraq to line pockets over there, that where I live in OUR America is going right to hell!

SO?

What country is it that George W. Bush is really the president of?

"Housing agencies' troubles mount - Crumbling and vacant buildings, debts plague group founded in 1982 to provide affordable homes" 
 
By BRIAN NEARING, Staff writer, Albany, New York Times Union
First published: Saturday, April 23, 2005

ALBANY -- O.D. Pearson keeps a tidy house.

That's why he is so bothered by the landlord next door, a not-for-profit group that is the city's largest private owner of apartments for the poor.

Taking a break one afternoon this week after repainting his front steps, the 65-year-old Pearson looked with disgust at the two vacant, decrepit row houses marred by peeling yellow paint and boarded-up windows.

"They've been that way for 15 years."

"They had pigeons in there, cats going in and out, people breaking in, all of that," said Pearson, who bought his two-story home at 352 Livingston Ave in 1967.

He moved to Colonie in 1981 and rents out the property.

"My tenants were always complaining about it."

"I called and called them to do something about this," Pearson said of the building's owner.

"Finally, last year, they boarded up all the broken windows and took off the front stairs."

"I don't understand why they just don't tear it down."

In addition to troubling Pearson, the crumbling row houses symbolize the foundering condition of their owner, St. Joseph's Housing Corp.

Founded in 1982 with the mission of making affordable places for people to live, St. Joseph's grew quickly, using millions in public subsidies to buy and repair dozens of homes in Arbor Hill and West Hill.

It now owns more than 70 buildings containing 191 apartments.

But between 2000 and 2003, St. Joseph's lost more than a half-million dollars and now faces a mounting pile of mortgages, property taxes and other unpaid bills, financial records show.

A red flag came last summer when city officials removed a mother and four children from an apartment on Clinton Avenue that had a broken toilet, a rotting bathroom floor and no hot water.

St. Joseph's -- which routinely spends $1 million a year -- is now threatened with foreclosure by the city unless it immediately makes critical repairs and catches up on overdue city loans on almost two dozen buildings.

A dozen properties are so bad that the city has declared them uninhabitable.

And while things are going to hell up here in his capital city, where is BUSH ALLY George Pataki these days?

"Pataki aides spotted in Iowa - Des Moines paper says governor may be eyeing '08 presidential run"

By MICHAEL COOPER, New York Times
First published: Saturday, April 23, 2005

ALBANY -- As the guessing game about Gov. George Pataki's political future continues in New York, The Des Moines Register reported this week about "sightings this week of Pataki political aides in Iowa, the starting gate for the 2008 presidential race.

The paper said the aides had been seen "sniffing around Des Moines and the Iowa Capitol on a not-quite-covert mission to establish contact with influential Republicans" and suggested that they could be laying groundwork for a run in the Iowa caucuses.


"They didn't mention the caucuses at all," one Iowa Republican who met with the aides said in an interview.

"They just wanted to say hello."

"In Iowa, we get a lot of that."

Pataki is expected to announce his plans before New York's legislative session ends in June, and maybe earlier.

His advisers say that he has not yet made up his mind, but many lobbyists, lawmakers, political operatives and Pataki associates in Albany say they do not expect him to seek a fourth term as governor.

For many months, Pataki has appeared to flirt with a run for national office.

Some of his supporters say privately that they think a run for president would be farfetched, given the Republican Party's move rightward and Pataki's slipping poll numbers at home.

But others say that his political skills and his prodigious ability to raise money would make him a contender in 2008.

Fueling some of the speculation were campaign-finance reports filed this week by the governor's Virginia-based political action committee, the 21st Century Freedom PAC, showing that he is increasingly relying on a large national public affairs firm, the DCI Group, for political advice.


Its chairman, Tom Synhorst, helped Sen. Bob Dole win the Iowa caucuses in 1988, and one of its founders, Tim Hyde, led the Iowa Republican Party in the early 1980s.

The governor used the firm during his re-election campaign in 2002.

Adam Stoll, who managed the 2002 campaign, went on to open the firm's New York City office after the election and worked there for more than a year before leaving to work in finance.

Walter Breakell, who was the research director for the campaign and later an adviser to the governor, now runs the DCI Group's office in New York.

According to filings with the state, the DCI Group, which advertises an array of services, has also lobbied the state and the governor on behalf of General Motors and the GTECH Corp., which makes computerized gambling systems.

An adviser to Pataki said the firm helped the governor choose candidates to campaign with in the rest of the nation.


end quotes

And of course, there is no conflict of interest for Pataki to be giving money to this same DCI Group firm that is lobbying him on behalf of these other clients!

This Pataki and "TWO-GUN TEXAS TOMMY" Delay would make quite a pair, campaigning together!

Peas in a pod, OUR George from up here, and TEXAS' Tommy, from down there!

Peas in a pod, a matched set of them at that!
Livyjr
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Apr 23 2005, 06:13 AM)
Hhhhmmmm.

March 10, 2005!

Anyone ever hear anything more about this?

NO?

Me, neither!

Anyone surprised?

No, me, neither!

Europe - AP

"Italy's Berlusconi Forms New Government"

ROME - Conservative leader Silvio Berlusconi formed a new government on Saturday, presenting a list of ministers to Italy's president.

With his reconstituted government, the Italian media magnate hopes to improve his sagging popularity and remain in power until the next election, due in mid-2006.

end quotes

Isn't it something how much can disappear from our minds with the simple passage of time.

A blessing perhaps, especially for politicians!

I heard on the radio news this morning that the United States (surprise, surprise) is prepared to issue a report that basically lays all the blame for this Italian guy, this Calipari, getting shot in Iraq, right on his shoulders!

It was the Italian guy's fault, as I said quite a few weeks ago, now, and no American is to blame for anything!

Hell, with a shot like that, right in the guy's temple, the shooter is a hero!

And what is this Berlusconi going to do about it?

My prediction is nothing at all!

If he is smart, like everyone else on this earth, he will just keep his mouth closed, right up tight!

Speaking out can be downright hazardous to your health, when George W. Bush is in town, or "CON JOB" Connie, for that matter, and make no mistake about it.

Right, Calipari?
Livyjr
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Apr 26 2005, 05:53 AM)
I heard on the radio news this morning that the United States (surprise, surprise) is prepared to issue a report that basically lays all the blame for this Italian guy, this Calipari, getting shot in Iraq, right on his shoulders!

It was the Italian guy's fault, as I said quite a few weeks ago, now, and no American is to blame for anything!

Hell, with a shot like that, right in the guy's temple, the shooter is a hero!

And what is this Berlusconi going to do about it?

I saw a friend today, and we were talking about this exoneration of ourselves in this Calipari shooting, and the interesting thing is that this person, a Viet Nam vet like myself who knows people fighting in Iraq, right now, had seen photographs of Calipari with the fatal hole in his head that were taken by American soldiers on the scene!

I don't think anything happens in combat in Iraq that is not already all around the world in a flash, a moment after, and so it was with this Calipari with the hole in his head!

A trophy shot!

A photograph of the kill!

Flashed right here to OUR America in a heartbeat, almost as it happened!

The power of digital technology!

Able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, on the one hand, and on the other, give us instant confirmation that this Calipari won't be negotiationg with no more people that George W. Bush don't want nobody talking to, and especially the Italians!

Except, it was an Italian!

Good old Calipari "done the dirty" one more time too many, and so, the boy got popped!

The military internet story goes that Calipari had given the TAY-RISTS some $8 MILLION and the TAY-RISTS were going to kill Americans with that money, and well, you know, if you have been there, [sounds of light whistling, sounds of weapon discharging, GOOD NIGHT!]!

And what are the Italians going to do about it?

Stop sending us silk suits?

That's the chatter, anyway, as I hear it!

Back to you, America!
Livyjr
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Apr 26 2005, 03:17 PM)
Good old Calipari "done the dirty" one more time too many, and so, the boy got popped!

The military internet story goes that Calipari had given the TAY-RISTS some $8 MILLION and the TAY-RISTS were going to kill Americans with that money, and well, you know, if you have been there, [sounds of light whistling, sounds of weapon discharging, GOOD NIGHT!]!

And what are the Italians going to do about it?

Stop sending us silk suits?

That's the chatter, anyway, as I hear it!

Back to you, America!

And that sure is the chatter as I hear it.

Two old men standing there, me and my friend, and we just shake our heads at what is going on in the world around us, and the load of absolute HORSE**** that we're supposed to swallow down everyday, in order to be "GOOD AMERICANS" according to the warped and twist playbook of the REPUBLICAN PARTY, here in OUR America, or maybe, hopefully, as this next story hints, anyway, it is not really the whole Republican Party, after all, that is pushing this "BUSH AGENDA", but just some small but powerful group of fanatics who took it over from within for awhile!

Top Stories - Los Angeles Times

"Clashes Growing Between Bush and GOP Moderates"

Tue Apr 26, 7:55 AM ET

By Ronald Brownstein Times Staff Writer

WASHINGTON — Conflicts are multiplying between congressional Republican moderates and the White House as President Bush pursues his aggressively conservative second-term agenda.

The unexpected resistance to Bush's nomination of John R. Bolton as U.N. ambassador from several Senate Republicans marks the latest, and potentially most intense, clash.

But battles over Social Security, Bush's budget proposal and ending the filibuster for judicial nominations also are raising tensions inside the party.

The divisions do not appear as pronounced as the ideological divides among Democrats during Bill Clinton's presidency.

But GOP moderates, especially in the Senate, seem more willing to challenge the administration than during Bush's first term, which was characterized by historic levels of party unity.

"A lot of the moderates were willing to give the president the benefit of the doubt prior to the election, but now that he's no longer going to be on the ballot, they are putting their own interest somewhat before the White House's," said Marshall Wittmann, a former GOP Senate aide who is an official at the Democratic Leadership Council, a centrist party group.

A senior White House official said the recent discord reflected the issues Bush was pushing, rather than diminishing presidential clout.

"I wouldn't look at it as 'It's every man for himself' because the president has just been reelected."

"I just think it's a different issue environment and these are tougher issues," said the official, who requested anonymity.

"It's not hard for a Republican to support a tax cut."

"But we are getting into issues that are tougher."

Bush and GOP leaders could pressure enough moderates to prevail on most key issues.

During the president's first term, the moderates often seemed to speak loudly and carry a small stick, voting for key administration proposals, such as tax cuts, after raising early objections.

Also, Bush's sky-high job approval ratings among rank-and-file Republicans and his record of helping the GOP gain congressional seats in 2002 and 2004 encourage party discipline.

"Those are very powerful hooks that will keep the Republican caucus more together than apart," said GOP pollster Bill McInturff.

Yet more turbulence within the party was the last thing most Republicans expected after they expanded their House and Senate majorities in last year's election.

The signs of insurrection have reached a point where some conservatives believe the White House must confront the dissenting voices more forcefully — especially as some Republicans' doubts about Bolton threaten the administration with its first defeat on a top-tier executive branch appointment.

"If the moderates take down Bolton … then you are really starting to get into threatening the party's ability to govern," said Jeff Bell, a veteran conservative strategist.

"I think Bush has to call the moderates' bluff in some way."

Similarly, conservative talk show host Hugh Hewitt predicted dire consequences for the GOP if Republican defectors thwarted the expected effort by Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-Tenn.) to ban the filibuster for judicial nominations.

"Fundraising for the National Republican Senatorial Committee will crater, and the majority so recently and dearly won could well vanish in a matter of 18 months," Hewitt said on his Web log last week.


To many observers, the second-term disputes within the GOP appear noteworthy largely in contrast to the party's unity during Bush's first term.

GOP House and Senate members managed a much higher degree of cohesion in their voting records than during the presidencies of Republicans George H.W. Bush, Ronald Reagan or Richard M. Nixon.

The Republicans also were much less likely to break with the president than congressional Democrats during Clinton's first term.

"By the standards of the Democrats … [the divide among the Republicans] is still pretty modest, but pretty modest means it is still probably a little different than in the first term," McInturff said.

Even now, the level of defection on most issues remains small.

Republicans this year voted almost unanimously to pass bills that limited class-action lawsuits and made it tougher for consumers to declare bankruptcy, both conservative priorities.

But because Senate Democrats are holding together more effectively than during Bush's first term, even small numbers of GOP defections can sink party priorities, said Michael Franc, vice president for government relations at the conservative Heritage Foundation think tank.

"The strength of the moderate Republicans derives in no small part from the unity of Senate Democrats," Franc said.

For instance, seven Senate Republicans joined with Democrats last month to block the administration's plan to seek major reductions in the growth of spending for Medicaid.

Continued resistance from GOP moderates to large reductions in federal entitlement programs could keep House and Senate negotiators from reaching agreement on a new federal budget, according to Republican sources following the talks.

Sen. Lincoln Chafee (R-R.I.) and Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) have indicated they would oppose any attempt to ban the filibuster for judicial nominations.

Sen. Olympia J. Snowe (R-Maine) seems almost certain to join them.

And enough other GOP senators remain uncommitted to leave the outcome in doubt if the issue comes to a vote.

Last week, objections from Sen. George V. Voinovich (R-Ohio) forced Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Sen. Richard G. Lugar (R-Ind.) to postpone a vote on Bolton's nomination until next month.

Chafee and Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-Neb.) also have questioned the choice.

With all committee Democrats planning to oppose Bolton, a defection by even one Republican would doom his confirmation.

Opposition from moderate Republicans is adding to the administration's challenge as it confronts unified Democratic resistance to Bush's plan to carve out private investment accounts from Social Security.

Since all Senate Finance Committee Democrats are likely to vote against the idea, it would die in committee if just Snowe, a committee member, holds in her opposition.

Defections by moderates also produced a series of close calls for Bush during recent Senate votes on his budget.

Seven Republicans broke from his proposal to allow drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, but the plan narrowly survived when it attracted support from three Democrats.

In the House, Republican leaders passed Bush's budget only after promising skeptical moderates a vote later this year on legislation to loosen the restrictions the president imposed in 2001 on embryonic stem cell research.

Presidents usually find it tougher to herd their party during a second term.

"There is a certain degree of 'lame-duck-itis' that sets in," said Wittmann, who was an aide to McCain before joining the Democratic Leadership Council.

But on several fronts — such as restructuring Social Security, limiting federal spending and nominating the unwavering conservative Bolton for the U.N. — Bush is pushing moderates to the limits of their political and philosophical comfort levels.

Antonia Ferrier, Snowe's communications director, expressed a common sentiment among GOP moderates when she said, "The senator will try to support the president when she can, but there are times when she has to do what is in the best interest of her state."
Livyjr
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Apr 26 2005, 03:36 PM)
And that sure is the chatter as I hear it.

Two old men standing there, me and my friend, and we just shake our heads at what is going on in the world around us, and the load of absolute HORSE**** that we're supposed to swallow down everyday, in order to be "GOOD AMERICANS" according to the warped and twist playbook of the REPUBLICAN PARTY, here in OUR America, or maybe, hopefully, as this next story hints, anyway, it is not really the whole Republican Party, after all, that is pushing this "BUSH AGENDA", but just some small but powerful group of fanatics who took it over from within for awhile!

Top Stories - Los Angeles Times

"Clashes Growing Between Bush and GOP Moderates"

Tue Apr 26, 7:55 AM ET 

By Ronald Brownstein Times Staff Writer

WASHINGTON — Conflicts are multiplying between congressional Republican moderates and the White House as President Bush pursues his aggressively conservative second-term agenda.

Yet more turbulence within the party was the last thing most Republicans expected after they expanded their House and Senate majorities in last year's election.

The signs of insurrection have reached a point where some conservatives believe the White House must confront the dissenting voices more forcefully — especially as some Republicans' doubts about Bolton threaten the administration with its first defeat on a top-tier executive branch appointment.

"The signs of insurrection have reached a point where some conservatives believe the White House must confront the dissenting voices more forcefully — "

Boy, I know something about that, myself, and you know what, we are talking about it over in "ISSUES FOR OUR TIMES"!

Succinctly stated, IN THE CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN VIEW, when there is dissent to PARTY DICTATES, it will be crushed!

Crushed!

Just like that!

And it is real!

Just ask John McCain!

He knows!

And so do we, those who finally speak out over there in "ISSUES FOR OUR TIMES"!

We who in mute witness stood, stand silent no more!

Read about it!

"Bush Appointee in Northern District of New York Deals Right To Dissent A Death-Blow!"
Livyjr
A MAN OR WOMAN WHO CANNOT IN GOOD FAITH AND CONSCIENCE UPHOLD THE AMENDMENTS TO THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION, INCLUDING THE FOURTEENTH AMENDMENT, AND ITS DUAL REQUIREMENTS OF SUBSTANTIVE AND PROCEDURAL DUE PROCESS OF LAW, FOR ALL AMERICAN CITIZENS REGARDLESS OF CLASS, SHOULD NOT BE A FEDERAL COURT JUDGE IN OUR AMERICA!

NO COMPROMISE, MR. REID!


http://www.congress.org to let him know!
Livyjr
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Apr 26 2005, 03:54 PM)
"The signs of insurrection have reached a point where some conservatives believe the White House must confront the dissenting voices more forcefully — "

Boy, I know something about that, myself, and you know what, we are talking about it over in "ISSUES FOR OUR TIMES"!

Succinctly stated, IN THE CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN VIEW, when there is dissent to PARTY DICTATES, it will be crushed!

Crushed!

Just like that!

And it is real!

Just ask John McCain!

He knows!

And so do we, those who finally speak out over there in "ISSUES FOR OUR TIMES"!

We who in mute witness stood, stand silent no more!

Read about it!

"Bush Appointee in Northern District of New York Deals Right To Dissent A Death-Blow!"

QUOTE(Livyjr @ Apr 26 2005, 04:31 PM)
A MAN OR WOMAN WHO CANNOT IN GOOD FAITH AND CONSCIENCE UPHOLD THE AMENDMENTS TO THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION, INCLUDING THE FOURTEENTH AMENDMENT, AND ITS DUAL REQUIREMENTS OF SUBSTANTIVE AND PROCEDURAL DUE PROCESS OF LAW, FOR ALL AMERICAN CITIZENS REGARDLESS OF CLASS, SHOULD NOT BE A FEDERAL COURT JUDGE IN OUR AMERICA!

NO COMPROMISE, MR. REID!


http://www.congress.org to let him know!

"DeAngelis aide inquiry is delayed - Lawmakers agree to postpone probe of job arrangement while suit against DA is resolved"

By MICHELE MORGAN BOLTON, Staff writer, Albany, New York Times Union
First published: Tuesday, April 26, 2005

TROY -- Rensselaer County officials will not investigate a decision by District Attorney Patricia DeAngelis to allow her confidential assistant to collect a full-time salary while going to college during work hours until related litigation has been settled.

Democratic lawmakers sought an immediate inquiry into the deal that allowed eight-year employee Katrin Ellis to be paid $61,500 a year while she attended courses at The Sage Colleges.

On April 15, Hoosick Falls legislator James Monahan asked fellow Public Safety and Judiciary Committee members to call a meeting to determine if Ellis received special favors at taxpayers' expense.

In a response obtained by the Times Union on Monday, Republican legislators Thomas Walsh Sr. and Peter Durkee, both of Troy, said it is in the best interests of taxpayers to wait.


When the legal case is resolved, an appropriate and thorough review then could begin, "if still desired," they said.

Republicans comprise the majority of the 18-member Rensselaer County Legislature.

DeAngelis is also a Republican.

"Nothing precludes both from going on at the same time," Monahan said after checking with a lawyer.

"Litigation could take years to complete, and important evidence could be lost or destroyed."

"Waiting years could render any investigation meaningless."


DeAngelis is being sued by former prosecutor Jennifer Sober, who said she was fired in November in part because she raised ethical questions about the job arrangement.

Ellis, who has three young children, has taken day and night classes full time for 16 months at the college across the street from the County Courthouse, where she works.

DeAngelis said Ellis used mornings, lunch breaks, nights and weekends to complete work duties.

However, current and former employees in the 35-person office said such responsibilities routinely went undone because Ellis was never there.

Ellis has submitted her resignation, effective May 6, saying she wants to spend more time with her children.

She has denied any wrongdoing.

The niece of former county Republican Chairman James Walsh, Ellis was hired by former District Attorney Ken Bruno in 1997 at a salary of $26,000.

end quotes

"Waiting years could render any investigation meaningless."

Of course it will!

That's the game!

That's why nobody is ever guilty of anything, are they, or at least if they are a Republican!
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