Last I heard a transgender is a basically a heterosexual trapped in the wrong body. They want to change sexes. So they can live their proper heterosexual lifestyle. How did this become a gay issue? It's a straight issue, and it should have stayed that way. Taking up this cause has only caused the gayfear to increase and confusion as to what gay is.

And where are their numbers? Where is their money for the fight? If you think no one cares. Middle America the red states DID NOTICE. When the city of San Francisco decided the city should pay for sex change operations as part of a benefit package for SF employees.

So this is the type of world gay people want to force us to live in they asked themselves.

About the only thing trannies contribute. Is an extreme media ready image of someone even more incomprehensible to most than gays are.

The way the red states see it. Bisexuals are the gay recruits. People who were once straight but are now becoming gay. No doubt THEY think due to recruitment and seduction on our part.

If their numbers are so great, and their support so important. How come we don't see bisexual rallies or transsexual rallies. Where are the bucks from the trannies and bis? In reality neither constituted a true movement. It was a mistake to glom those onto the gay rights movement. They contribute neither numbers nor money in a significant way, but cost us greatly in terms of legitimacy in the eyes of our enemies and even many of our supporters..

We sacrificed a hell of a lot in terms of image by adding this nonsense to our name.

It completely messed up. What we were fighting for which is the rights of adults to enter into relationships to enter into loving relationships with members of the same sex.

In the name of PC diversity. We expanded and confused everyone even more. Just what the hell we were fighting about.

Most importantly, many rural and non-mainstream gay men and gay men in the military completely abandoned "gay rights" as an issue they care about.

When it was simple. It was something they could feel part of no matter how far away they were. When we morphed into what we are now. We lost them.

As an anecdote. I just spoke to a rural friend. Who has little to do with the gay scene save for some buddies in Dallas he does things with. About 9 men total. One's military, others are businessmen and working guys. All of them voted for Bush.

Why I asked? Your voting against yourself. He said no I'm not. I may be gay, but I DO NOT have anything in common with those wackos in the city. He could not and would not make common cause with transsexual and bisexual rights. While he thinks drag queens are funny. He refused to see the wish for a man to dress in feminine clothing as a civil rights issue.

It's my impression this is the feeling of a lot of gay men and women everywhere, but we refuse to see it.

Someone wrote in a reply. We are everywhere. Ok fine, but does that mean we are everywhere and speak with one voice.

We need to get back to basics. Drop transgender and bisexual from our names. We are about gay men and lesbians obtaining the freedoms. That all others enjoy.

The easier we are to understand. The easier the fight to get civil rights will be.

We can still support them, but by dropping those two. We remove yet another EASY target of the religious right.

By dropping those words. We can once more reach out to the rural gays everywhere, and southern/military gays specifically. Who have basically abandoned us. They won't stand up to be gay, because for them. It means being part of a carnival show.

Bringing them back into the fold and getting their support is far more important to gay men and women. Than the NO support we get from transsexuals.

Doing this would show Democrats everywhere. Who lost a lot supporting gay rights. That we are serious about presenting a easier to push agenda, a more family friendly image. That those red state people will find a harder time getting all worked up about.

Why stop there?

Let's drop lesbians and gays. Way too much trouble in my book.

And I think we should drop women and youth. What have they done for us lately?

And forget about those Jews. Soo tired of them.

Let's stop reaching out to people of color too. Too picky. Never can please them.

Let's see, who does that leave? Oh, of course, we must keep trying to reach out to those who believe in rights only for males, whites, protestants, and rich people. Not necessarily in that order of course.

I'm talking about the gay rights movement specifically as part of the democratic party.

No dude, you are talking about giving up on equal rights. And you well know it.

Because we're too busy organizing rallies on your behalf. As a bisexual woman who happens to be married to a man, I am "lucky" enough to automatically receive the rights I have been fighting for on YOUR behalf for the past 15 years.

Up until I married my husband, I was fighting for my own rights as well - I had no idea if my life partner would be a man or a woman. Turned out to be a man. Did I give up fighting for those rights? Hell no.



I spend about $10,000.00 per year of my very hard earned money on efforts supporting the GLBT movement and community. I volunteer hundreds of man hours each year working on youth outreach programs, AIDS awareness, educating the het community and campaigning for local and State officials who support equal rights for all.

This kind of infighting and discrimination within our own ranks is exactly the reason we make few inroads in obtaining equal rights or support from politicians or a good portion of mainstream society.

To quote myself from my post located here -
target='_blank'>


http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...topic=305&st=40

johnnyincentx Posted Nov 8 2004, 04:20 PM

"The way the red states see it. Bisexuals are the gay recruits. People who were once straight but are now becoming gay. No doubt THEY think due to recruitment and seduction on our part.
--------------
So this is the type of world gay people want to force us to live in they asked themselves."
-------------

“I'm a classic moderate pragmatic Democrat. If you think me too extreme. You might take a look at your footing. Chances are you probably about to step off the extreme left wing of the democratic party. LOL
If you have a point to make support it with facts and logic. Insults do nothing but make me laugh.”


Perhaps you could walk your talk on some of these assertions. Where are your facts? Anecdotes may be insightful, they aren't a solid basis for assumptions. There was an interesting article in the Denver Post not too long ago (I have it - in a box overflowing with a lot of election stuff).
Apparently Iran allows sex change operations and I don't remember that they were out of pocket. I would bet that SF pays for operations like penile implants too.

Do you really think the fundamentalist voters pay that much attention to the facts?

Isn't the "moderate pragmatic Democrat" the extreme right side of the party? You are from central TX? A state well known to have a lot of overlap in the Democratic right wing and the Republican left? In which case, some of us who disagree may actually be securely in the center. I do think you are too willing to abandon principles to win - aka the Cheney philosophy. And I think the party is better off with all it's diversity. If we could get away from the antagonistic tone in discussion, it would be far more constructive and less wasted time.

What did you do during this campaign? I worked for the Kerry county campaign, worked with some on line vet groups, the Kerry blog, phone banks, and put together three notebooks on the Issues and Kerry's positions for my coworkers. I got some coworkers to an Edwards townhall meeting and made it to the rope line to put in my plea. I wrote LTE, emails, sent faxes and donated everything I could scrape out of my budget.

As I have argued on other posts, we need to work on the severe ignorance of this group of voters. If you haven't read George Lakoff's "Don't Think of an Elephant", I highly recommend it to understand the groupthink perspective you have to get around.

It's due time the Democratic Party STOP WATERING DOWN OUR BELIEFS!

We should PROUDLY articulate our beliefs: RESPECT FOR DIVERSITY, CIVIL RIGHTS, EQUAL ACCESS TO OPPORTUNITY, COMPASSION FOR THOSE IN POVERTY, CHILDREN'S RIGHTS, WOMEN'S RIGHTS, CONCERN FOR OUR PLANET...RESPECT FOR OUR CONSTITUTION.

This bi-partisan, stay "safe in the center" model IS NOT WORKING...restore what our party once was---who we are---and stop pandering to Bush's base that wont vote for our candidates anyway.

The days of of John F Kennedy were the glory days for the Democratic Party. LIBERAL was honorable. And as much as I liked Clinton, the fact is...his "safe in the center" moves did not fare well within our party. His welfare reform, anti gay marriage and other moderate stances/policies fragmented us and left an aftermath we still have not recovered from.

I say push from the left...and push hard! Watch the pendelum swing...

We also need to clean up and modernize our ground game. The Repub campaign HQ's were run like Microsoft while the Dem campaign HQs were old school.

What a crock of s&#t! I am not a "gay recruit".

I'm a bisexual man living in a committed relationship with another man. As such, issues relating to legal rights for same-sex couples affects me a lot more than it does many single gay men.

Enough said?

You're just as bigoted as the people who oppress us.

I have to speak out about this:

Gays and Lesbians like to include "Bisexual" and "Transgender" because these people do exist, and have always shared common goals/problems with us. Segregating them from us would be just as bad as the straights who deny our existance and ignore our problems.

I think the most important thing for us as the gay community to do is to preach tolerance. The reason I say that is because if people could associate that with us rather than all sorts of other horrible things that I won't mention I think it would be good for us.

What you believe is NOT reality for all. What total pretention.

Interesting that all your solutions involve jettisoning people and their rights and concerns.

Why the hell should the more enlightened city of San Francisco cowtow to the bigoted attitudes of Middle America? Is it all about numbers?

Transgendered are a very small minority, but they are human beings. They are also murdered in higher percentages compared to other human beings. I for one refuse to throw them on the trash heap for the greater good of the Democratic Party.

If the Democratic Party wishes to become a party of cowards desperately seeking to appease the prejudices of middle america, then what good are they? Might as well vote Republican.

I'm proud of San Francisco for having the foresight to include transgendered people's concerns in its legislation.

Why should SF regress just because some religious nutbag in, say, Iowa can't handle the realities of human gender issues?

That was a clever retort. Man if you cannot deal or cope with my viewpoint. You are worthless to the fight for rights. Since people like you see no common ground anywhere, and couldn't find it. Even if you were standing on it. This shouldn't be a surpirse though. Since you are an admitted johnny-come-lately (you professed once being a hater yourself) Who often try to make up for their own clear and inexcusable past bigotry and hate by pretending to be in the vangaurd of whatever struggle they are forced to join. Once they realize they are part of a minority, and not safe from all harm as a simple white man.

YOu are definitely on the left wing. LOL Not the extreme though. Since you are able to remain rationale. While stating your position.

**another annoying demeaning threadline.
Bisexuals and transexuals are our allies, we don't have to agree on all issues, but they understand the discrimination in this country based on sexual orientation and gender-varience.
Many of our allies whether women or racial minorities have had good times and bad times with the LGBT community. We all realize we are stronger united than divided. It is similar to relationships of good friends,we may squabble and disagree amongst ourselves, but when an enemy goes after one of us we close ranks.

Your post make my head spin. No matter what your orientation, as a human being and as a American you should have the same rights as everyone else.

Well said.

Isn't the "moderate pragmatic Democrat" the extreme right side of the party? You are from central TX? A state well known to have a lot of overlap in the Democratic right wing and the Republican left?

[/quote]

Like everywhere else, the difference between the parties is growing greater here in Texas, too. The GOP has targeted the moderate/conservative Democrats for extinction, so they are rapidly dwindling in numbers. Others have jumped to the GOP pragmatically, in order to be able to retain office. The result is a Republican Party that grows increasingly more conservative and a Democratic Party that grows increasingly more liberal.

The real issue is that gender concepts in society are BS, and we shouldn't have a governmental structure that's based around them.

Eliminating bisexuality and transgender'ds from the movement would be like cutting off a leg; you'd only be enforcing those same irrational distinctions that allow people to say "defense of marriage" with a straight face.



And yes, I realize it's a bad pun. :D

couldn't we just drop the jerks of any persuasion?

Are jerks monogamous?

LMQAO!

I've added a certain member to my ignore list, and several threads here have gotten a whole lot more pleasant.

A rainbow isn't complete without blue, or purple, or green, or red...

Being LGBTQ I've giggled as our label gets longer, but I wouldn't shun a single color in the rainbow.

Political respect is important to secure our safety in the community - but mutual respect is absolutely critical for healthy self esteem. To deny one group is to deny yourself.

One would have thought that obvious to a long time outtie...