Ugh. This is an outrage! The link has the video.

Here's the link: http://nyc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/142004/index.php

A student named Jay (who wants his last name to be withheld) at Brick Township High School in New Jersey, had his chair pulled out from under him after he refused to stand for the national anthem. The class started out that morning with Mantel yelling "I don't want to hear a sound! Not a sound! Morning exercises will come on, you will stand, you will stand quietly, you will pay attention! Any Questions!?...Now stand up and keep your mouths shut!" Students stood up as the national anthem began playing.
In the middle of the anthem, Mantel walked over to Jay and demanded that he stand up. Jay silently refused, and Mantel yelled again, "Stand up!". Jay then said "I don't have to stand up". To which Mantel insisted "You have to stand." Jay said "No I don't". Mantel then reached over and pulled Jay's chair out from under him. Jay responded to Stuart Mantel's outrageous behavior by asking Mantel "Are you serious?", to which Mantel yelled "I am damn well serious."
Jay said that he didn't have any political reasons for his refusal to stand but that he wanted to sit because he feels it is his right to do so and that right was being threatened by Mantel. Jay said that he thought Mantel might tell him to stand, but he never expected to be physically forced to do so.
Jay's friend who was in the class at the time, Corey, says that their teacher had been strict in the past in demanding that students stand for the national anthem and pledge of allegiance. That's why they brought in a camera - to expose the teacher in case he did anything again. "The teacher and school principals wanted him (Mantel) to press charges against us...they tried to blame it on us like it was premeditated, like we did it just to get him on tape, which is false. We knew he was gonna go nuts because he frequently used to" said Corey.
Jay's other classmate Steve got suspended for 10 days for filming the incident. The school told Corey that it "violated the teacher's constitutional rights" for them to film the teacher without his permission."I think that its crazy that people are getting in trouble for this or things they say. There have been so many kids video taping and no one ever got in trouble for it. So why now?" Jay asked. It sounds as if the school is punishing this student now because of the nature of what's on the tape, not the fact they were taping the teacher without his permission.
When I asked Corey if Mantel was being punished for pulling out Jay's chair, he said "Nope...I asked (the principal) 'What are you doing to discipline Mantel?' and they said 'we talked'. Teachers do anything they want". Seeing acts like Mantel's go unpunished will likely inspire teachers to continue intimidating their students into standing for the national anthem and pledge of allegiance.

If you would like to let Brick Schools know how you feel about their handling of this situation, you may contact them here:

Brick Township Public Schools
Board of Education
101 Hendrickson Ave
Brick, NJ 08723
732-785-3000

Brick Township High School
346 Chambers Bridge Road
Brick, NJ 08723
(732)262-2500

Duh, which teacher's constitutional right was violated ?
Wasn't it the student's constitutional right which was being violated ?

Aren't there any cameras in school buildings ?
You mean there are cameras everwhere BUT NONE IN THE CLASSES ?

Right. And what if the student got hurt when the teacher pulled the chair? Who's fault would it be? I hope the kids who are involved go to ACLU. I'm sure they'd be a huge help.

I'm kinda torn here. No doubt, that teacher is very close to a major eruption of some kind and somebody's gonna get hurt. On the other hand, I think a lot of the problems we have in society today are due to the lack of discipline and disrespect that a lot of our young people have. Not just for this country, but also for their teachers. When I went to school, if I had done what this kid did that teacher would have given me a couple of "swats" with a paddle about 4 feet long, 3 inches wide and and inch thick while I bent over and grabbed my ankles. Those days are gone and that is a good thing. I think we have gone way to far in the other direction, though. Many kids know nothing of history, of the sacrifices many others have made so that these kids have the RIGHT to sit during the national anthem. Just because one has the right to do something does not necessarily make it the right thing to do. If we ever do get taken over by China or any other country those same kids who disrespect America now are gonna be real unhappy.
I hate my government, but I love my country.

Now this is the sort of teacher that gives all teachers a bad name. This is the sort of teacher that breeds angry and hurtful students. This is the sort of teacher you would want to send to work rounding up wild horses and cattle in cattleland, and allow to be around children in a civilized teaching institution.

This reminds me of a recent story about a boy who did refuse to stand up, and recite the pledge. I believe his refusal was based on the fact that he did not support what our government is doing. I believe this child was well within his rights and much braver than some adults who refuse to voice their dissent. And for this second child, I'd say it is certainly well within his right not to stand. It seems to me a personal decision even if it is a socially accepted form of denoting respect.
The question I would ask is what right does a teacher have to force someone to stand against their will? If it were simply insubordination there are certainly other methods to deal with this and we'd need more facts to evaluate the situation.

The teacher shouldn't have pulled the seat out from under the student ( a bit aggressive and shows the teacher has lost control), but other than that, I side with the teacher. The kid sounds like a "brat" and a trouble maker. Sounds like the kid is trying to show the teacher "who's boss" in the classroom. Immature, really.

The young man said that it was not political, thus it had nothing to do with the pledge. In my mind it becomes a disciplinary problem, rather than a constitutional one. In this respect, I have to agree with wiley.
On the other hand...the teacher IMO, was a little over the top...maybe. Times have changed from when I was a schoolboy...and not for the better I fear. A lack of respect and self respect.

The kid is probably no angel, but that does not absolve the teacher in any way. I would suspect that the obvious lack of respect these kids have for this particular teacher is a direct result of the demonstrated lack of respect this teacher has for his students. It's been a long time since I was in high school, but my recollection is that the teachers who had the most problems with undisciplined students were the same teachers who had problems relating to the other students as well. Some people just shouldn't be teachers. It's quite obvious that this guy is one of them.

This episode is also a good example of the counterproductive results when enforced patriotic symbolism is substituted for real understanding of history, citizenship and sacrifice. The Pledge of Allegiance means nothing to these kids because all they have to do is look around at their parents to see that sacrifice for the good of country has taken a back seat to the "Got mine, Up Yours" mentality of upper middle class communities like Brick Township (yes, Brick Township is a Republican stronghold in New Jersey). These people think their patriotic responsibility is fulfilled by doing nothing more than putting a flag sticker and a yellow ribbon magnet on their Expedition, while the country grows weaker every day due to the massive debt resulting from their own greed. Is it any wonder that the kids think the Pledge is nothing more than a silly poem they are forced to recite every day at school?

I totally agree. The kid should have been sent home until he can be disciplined. Discipline is the parents job and too many of them aren't doing it. The teacher's job is to teach not do the parents job for them. What if all children refused to do as the teachers tell them? I'm sure we would be short of teachers. Catering to immature spoiled kids would make teaching a very undesirable job.

On filming a teacher. One cannot film someone without their consent or knowledge. Period. It's the law! I , as a teacher, cannot set up a hidden camera and film my classroom. I can set up a camera in full view to record. We have cameras in schools to prevent crimes and as a deteriant to misbehavior. They are in the open and kids know about them. They work! We have caught several thieves at our new school since it opened. Fights are down and it has been a great deterrent of kids who feel the need to pick on and harass other students.......bullies.

With that said I feel schools should have rule regarding the pledge of alligence and the national anthem. Most request that students at least stand......although they do not have to sing or recite the pledge or anthem. I do support that. However, the teacher in this case stepped across the line by pulling the chair out from the kid and loosing his cool. He should have just sent them to the office with a referrel. My guess is that the school administration is slacking on their job. Kids and teachers act like this when administration doesn't support teachers with routine disciplinary procedures. Notice that the kid wasn't sent to the office he just walked out and slammed the door. A strong sign that something is amiss in the school district. Athletes tend to get special priviledges etc..... We haven't had the pledge or the anthem in schools for a very long time and some adjustment time is needed. Being patriotic is a choice. Do schools have the right to request respect for those who make the choice to be patriotic? I think, yes, but this was not the way to handle the situation.

best wishes marie

This is the kind of teacher who need to change job....he is losing his ability to stay calm with defiant students! being a teacher is very difficult ....
In my opinion, both were ridiculous.....but on the long term, the teacher is the looser, for "playing the game" of power.
Coming from a country where religion and patriotism are not on display in any school (which I find better anyway!), this is a totally strange situation to me, but I would have hated to be the teacher or the student!
Just cannot imagine the "Marseillaise" being played in a classroom, with all the foreign students being present: too much Africans or Beurs in our schools....this would be asking for trouble

Does anybody here find that being barked at the first thing in the morning is not the best motivation to start a day's work ?

Wiley, is there anything political that you can think of that hasn't do to with worshipping ?

From sadistic and humiliating torture, I assume you think to enforce discipline but which effect is actually TERROR, you assert things went too far in another direction. Which direction ? No torture, nor terror at all ? Or are you trying to say the right policy should include "some" torture or "some" terror ?

History, sacrifices, rights have nothing to do with having to listen every freaking day to the same pompously loud music of a british drinking song on which was slapped a series of vague, confusing run-on sentences and questions in an archaic, over-flowery style glorifying war and calling out the spirit of the American resolve to never surrender.

How ironic when these same verses are forcefully shoved down on hormone loaded, giggling, rebellious teenagers by just a few older generations since 1931, year the national anthem was officially introduced. They recall with a tear in the eye how themselves they have been subdued into obedience and into worship of symbols forged by the myth, imagery and lies of political propaganda, surrendering in a cult of nationalism those benefits they claim they defended, like freedom, to preserve their own beliefs and prerogatives of moral superiority.

Like it or not, those kids ARE America. If someone "disrespected" America, look where the barking comes from. But perhaps you are suggesting that if China takes over, those who sing along today will be happier.

On the morning of September 14 1812, Major Armistead ordered his men to lower the storm flag and replace it with the great garrison flag. As they raised the flag, the troops fired their guns and played “Yankee Doodle” in celebration of their victory.

"Father and I went down to camp
Along with Captain Gooding
And there we saw the men and boys
As thick as hasty pudding."

Agreed. Patriotism is a religion. The Pledge and the Anthem are rites of a cult.
Keep cults and religion out of public schools.

As much right as to request respect for those who make the choice to NOT be patriotic.

Or, in other words, there is no EXTRA respect to request for patriots, or for any religion.

I suppose we should give up national sovereignty while we're at it!

If all children refused to do as the teachers tell them, it's because the children have very good reasons.

You probably mean short of good teachers. Which is the case today.

Catering to spoiled kids makes teaching more profitable because they generally don't go to public shools.

Catering to mature kids generally happens when kids are mature. Until they are mature, expect kids to be immature.

We don't need no education
We dont need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teachers leave them kids alone
Hey! Teachers! Leave them kids alone!
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall.

-Pink Floyd

How long have you been teaching?

We have a rule that asks students to stand. Some of my students don't wish too. That's ok by me but not a school rule. Usually when I speak privately with a student I learn their personal view and they also understand that their friends deserve some respect time too. Respect is something that one gives and not demands. If we all give each other respect, we all benefit. Giving respect is really an amazing concept when one thinks about it. Demanding respect fails as it did with the teacher involved in this situation. The students also failed on the respect issue. No one wins.

I'll stick to giving respect instead of demanding it. Thanks.

[quote=marie,Feb 20 2005, 10:53 AM]


I'll stick to giving respect instead of demanding it. Thanks.


Compliments...you must be a good teacher: by giving respect, you teach respect to your students

Why should we ?
I fail to relate sovereignty to the exclusion of religion from public schools, or patriotism for that matter.

Very good marie!...You remind me of an English teacher I had many years ago. She recieved the respect of the students, because of her fair and impartial treatment of us.

A wonderful take on the Pledge...

Pledge of Allegiance By Red Skelton

[quote=picadilly,Feb 20 2005, 11:10 AM]
I suppose we should give up national sovereignty while we're at it!

[/quote]
Why should we ?
I fail to relate sovereignty to the exclusion of religion from public schools, or patriotism for that matter.

[/quote]


I am with you on this
I never spoke the pledge of allegiance, not even during the ceremony of citizenship (with 3000 other in the same room, doing so, with conviction or not!!!! :o )...
I never was a French patriot zealot, neither...patriotism is easy to mix with nationalism, in both countries and I dislike it.

[quote=mistral,Feb 20 2005, 11:07 AM]
[quote=marie,Feb 20 2005, 10:53 AM]
I'll stick to giving respect instead of demanding it. Thanks.
Compliments...you must be a good teacher: by giving respect, you teach respect to your students

[/quote]

I have my bad days too. I make plenty of mistakes. Why? Because I'm human. So are my students. I just try to remember they are not the enemy. They really do turn into pretty decent adults but it's a long weary road.

It's been a long week...........believe me. The kids get pretty mean this time of year........it happens every February. Too much time inside. It's winteritis.

Dylan............uggghhhh to the Pink Floyd song!

I didn't become a teacher to make kids lives miserable. It wasn't part of my training. Their parents didn't call me while I was in college saying "please become a teacher to make my child's life terrible". No I don't remember that at all. It wasn't part of an oath i took either. Yet for some reason that's what more and more of our population believes.

This week I was trying to help a student and he bit my head off. I explained to him I wasn't here to make his life a miserable and I didn't deserve that kind of treatment. If a kid doesn't want my help, believe me, that's cool by me. Good choice, bad choice but in the end HIS choice. Later he apologised.........Now if I had let him get away with treating me like some sort of monster teacher he may have never understood what and how he treated me as a person was wrong. He made a mistake. People who never make mistakes generally make nothing at all.

this is interesting to read: in the new Time magazine:
http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,1101050221,00.html

What Teachers Hate About Parents

About 4 years, filling in as high-school replacement when I was at university, in the late 70ies-early 80ies.
How is this question related to patriotic rites and incivility in school ?

So you enforce the school rule, because it's your job, and you politely ask them to stand, right ?
If they still don't stand, staying polite, you engage disciplinary sanctions against them because it's your job. Am I still on track ?
So, in fact, it is a-ok with you because you genuinely don't take it personally, but you still sanction them and tell them there is nothing personal, you are just doing your job. Am I far off ?

So if I get this straight, it's you who give students "Respect time" to stand up and Pledge and listen to the Anthem, like when students ask to go to the toilets ?
But those who don't stand up still get disciplined.
If I have it wrong, could you please kindly elaborate ?

Fine and dandy. Generally one shows respect, but I'll assume you mean giving "respect time".
So you give respect to patriotic students by giving them "respect time" for their rites.
There is one thing I don't get: if it's a school rule, why do you say you give "respect time" ? Does it mean you can refuse to give "respect time" and skip the pledge and the anthem ?

Ok. So the students give you also "respect time". It should be fair, it goes both ways, right ?

What makes it so amazing ?

I think you are mistaken. There is nothing in the record at the link above suggesting the teacher asked in a civil manner for anything. He barked out orders and yelled out very impolitely "Now stand up and keep your mouths shut!".

"Failed on the respect issue", can you please elaborate ?
I apologize for asking, but I wouldn't want to misconstrue you and lend you any wrong opinions.

Mama told me you gotta earn respect because respect ain't free.
I apologize for saying this, but the way you put it, you seem to have so much respect to give away that it kind of makes it cheap.

If respect is so plentiful and cheap to earn, how come some people make such a fuss if they don't get the respect they think they deserve from other people who don't feel concerned ?

This is defined by the meaning, "Hey, I'll let you know I'm more macho and more holier and powerful than thou." Oh God, hope these sort of people are never hired for diplomatic missions. They'd be be pumping out gasses and hate instead of compromises.

Seen the incredible Irish film, "The Magdalene Sisters"? Worth renting if you haven't seen it yet.

Does anyone else think as I do that discipline in schools dropped and violence increased when teachers stopped being tough on students. When I went to school, I got whacked many a time by teachers when I stepped out of line. Never dared tell my parents about it 'cause I knew I'd get a whipping from them for causing trouble in school!

Nope, they are merely imitating the models they see at home: their doting parents and their surroundings that believe the schools, the churches and the TV programs are their hired nannies.

Ah as Voltaire once said " It is lamentable that to be a good patriot one must become the enemy of all mankind.......

I agree

Marie,

You seem to be quite a sensible teacher.....perhaps Mantel can take a lesson from you!

Hi!

We say the pledge in our middle school every day. I look around as we are asked to stand, to make sure everyone is doing so. I don't make a big issue of it if someone is slow to stand or if I notice students not saying anything. Quite frankly, I have bigger fish to fry. If a student seriously objects to standing and participating, our school requests a note from parents to make sure they are aware of what is happening. Most middle school students have really not thought the entire situation out, and are not really objecting to the pledge so much as they may be objecting to other things that may be going on in the school. An insolent student will find ANY reason to be insolent, they tend to object to just about anything you want them to do.

Not knowing all of the facts of what happened in this particular classroom it would be difficult to give an opinion, except to say that it is extremely foolhardy for a teacher to do anything that might harm a student. It will always be viewed in a negative light. I will say this - if my principal walked into my first period class as I said what this teacher said, he is experienced enough to know that it is probably not an isolated incident, and I'm having trouble getting control of my classroom. I would be hearing from him fast.

I want to also point out that most of the students I teach are well behaved and respectful. I do, however, have a few students who can be very disrespectful and will use every opportunity to disrupt a class. I do not take this. My students and their parents know from the outset that there are standards of behavior that they are going to adhere to if we are going to have a successful relationship. Students do better when they know the rules before you begin - you can't make them up as you go along.

God Bless,
TammyJo58

Thanks Tammy.....more wisdom here....you are on my list along with Marie of teachers I would have loved to have had.....

Patriotism cannot be demanded of anyone. You can go through the motions and still not have it. I suspect that most of the other students go through the motions. Forcing complience does not really work to promote love of ones country. To a certain extent it is earned by the actions taken by your country. I see nothing we have done lately to earn respect by our own citizens let alone foreign people.

say one Nation under God, say you love Jesus, SAY IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think you have made a few assumptions here that are not necessarily backed up by facts. How can you be sure that it started out with the teacher "barking" at the students "first thing in the morning"? Isn't it possible the students started out disrepecting him first?
I'm not really sure what your second question means. Personally, I don't "worship" anyone or anything. I stand for the national anthem, though. Not because I have to, but because I choose to.
Your third question is pretty loaded. It's like asking me to answer yes or no to the question of whether or not I still beat my wife. Yes, I do think things have gone too far in the wrong direction. You choose to define it as "terror and torture". I think you're exaggerating. Discipline does not have to be "terror and torture". Am I to take it that you think kids should be able to say and do anything they want without consequences?
The rest of your tirade sounds to me like someone who is pretty bitter about this country. It's kind of like a self-loathing. I don't say that to insult you. I'm only telling you how it comes across to me.
Of course I'm not suggesting that if/when China takes over that those who sing along will be happier and you know that. My point is that those who do sing along don't have any illusions about what the best country in the world is to live. Those who show no respect (which is definitely their right) seem to think it's not.

Respect whether for a person,group,or country is earned.

Which seems more courageous, one kid not standing,(for whatever his reasons),
or a classful of kids standing,because they are told to,or because every one else is standing?

I dont see what the huge deal is about this. Yes, the teacher shouldnt have gone to the extreme like he/she did but the pledge is important and i know how some kids can be now a days (Smart arses who do it just to make the teacher mad). How do i know? Because i use to be one of the dumb arses before i matured. By the way, i have seen teachers do worse then that (Not necessarily to me, but ive seen it).

I should thinks kids are as bad as what their parents/grandparents or their homes turn them out to be from the ages of 1-5. Can they really expect to change by the help of schools and schools alone? Wishful thinking? Very much so...

A pledge said by rote,or because you are forced to say it, means NOTHING.
When liberty and justice for all, means ALL, I'll be saying it with you. When you have discrimination against me written into the Constitution, I'll be sitting with the kid.

Wiley, I didn't suggest what you have or have not done, but merely asked what should or should not be done.

If such sanction was applied in Abu Grahib, would it not simply be considered and condemned as torture ? If such a sanction was brandished as a threat and applied on occasions on young kids, or even grown up men, would it not simply be considered as a cause of terror ?

Now I hear you and fully join you in your opinion that things have gone too far.
But please let me remind you, in your first post, you wrote...

Which suggests "lack of discipline" AND "disrespect" were among the main causes for the scandal reported in this topic. Is this what you meant ?

If this is the case, then I must disagree with you on both reasons for this scandal and invite you to elaborate your views. Not performing a specific patriotic rite is not showing "disrespect", nor do I believe that such a decision to not perform this rite is a "lack of discipline".

Eventually, you may consider that the teacher barking out orders was uncivil, and that some teenagers took offense and decided that the values displayed by the teacher did not match their own values, or those values the pledge represents to them, or even those values the teacher views in the pledge for which he asked the students to stand up.

In other words the student eventually decided to not stand up and pledge because he acknowledged an irreconcilable difference of division with the teacher.

He did the right thing, not for political reasons, but simply to avoid perjury.

Anything ? Yes, as long as they stay within limits they know about and which determine right from wrong.

No problem. I understand your point. I'm not bitter about the country itself, but I am significantly tired of much pointless bigotry and often terribly misclaimed respect caused by ignorance, egocentric provocation and an obsession for moral self-justification.

Fair enough. Thank you for your clarification.

Why is the pledge important ?
How exactly does it change anything to your day ?

picadilly,
I can't say that I disagree with what you say. I guess my worry is that if these kids don't feel that America is worth standing for the anthem or saying the pledge then they surely cannot feel that it is worth fighting and dying for. Sure, the war in Iraq is immoral and Cheney's stooge is a bumbling fool that we need to get shed of ASAP, but what about the future? What if it does come down to us against China or Russia or somebody else who wants to destroy America? Will these kids still refuse to stand?

I sent a comment to that site and I hope you all did. It is like in Japan here. The teachers and students have to sing the anthem and stand before the flag. This is a new law within the past few months. If teachers refused, no matter how old and experienced they were, they got sent for 'retraining' a couple of days. It makes me feel sick at heart. I wonder if the new laws Bush has brought in will soon allow the government to get these children checked up mentally, and put in a special hospital for retraining, it sounds like the USA is going the same way as Japan. This is a new thing here, funny how it is in keeping with Bush's Patriotism. (Patriot Plan, Patriot Missiles etc)

Will any patriotism dry our tears or take us in its arms while we bury our dead child, or sibling, or parent? Or will it imprison our thoughts and stop us from seeking the reasons why we are threatened, by whom, and for what reasons? And if we find out will the patriotic leadership of our country let us speak out or will it shut us away in a mental home, or next to the cell of those who killed our relative?

I disagree with forcing patriotism on people and I would have thought that 6 million Jewish lives were a costly price to have taught countries in the world the dangers of patriotism. In The Sound Of Music the song sung at the end of the concert as the family were trying to escape their own country was Eidleweiss. That was a much more genuine a choice than the National Anthem would
have been. The country's Anthem had been misused, so the natural choice was another song.

In this case, without knowing the student, and as a former teacher, I find it difficult to judge him. The teacher sounds a rough type, and so perhaps the boy was a different type. Maybe they had some antagonism going on between them. I imagine for some reason that he is sensitive and intelligent, and disliked the teacher involved, and dislikes war and yet does not wish to make himself appear political so he says it is not, and goes out slamming the door..He maybe is not so mature that he had thought through every answer to every question beforehand. To me it seems like a perfect storm. I bet this happened because it was inevitable between these two characters. The pompous, unthinking patriot versus the sensitive, adolescent who is growing into a mature person who makes his own decisions and is prepared to accept the consequences. On the other hand the boy may have been a constant bother to all the staff and this time he picked the wrong teacher.... <_<

It is only before 8pm here in Tokyo. Do not think I am a night owl.

Wiley,

You say that you love your country. What are the chances that someone's relationship with his country and it's values turns into a love story if you are disciplined, beaten, humiliated, for not following patriotic rites, the rules of "courtship" and "marriage" with your country ?

Can you imagine a dating agency, people who want to share and promote their patriotic values, that disciplines it's candidates ?

Does forced marriage work ?

And who would I be to turn down someone like Frenchy, who probably lives the most successful, sensible, meaningfull love relationship someone can have with his country ?

And who would I be to turn down someone like Frenchy, who probably lives the most successful, sensible, meaningfull love relationship someone can have with his country ?

Putting your minor insult aside!...I do have that relationship with my country. Mainly because I'm able to separate the country from the government. But like all marriages, there are bumps along the road that one has to deal with.
Allegiance to ones country doesn't have to translate to fealty to ones leaders.

Insult ??? Where ?
It was simply a statement of respect for your patriotic opinions you share with us and in which I found more generosity than groomed overinflated pride. Was I wrong ?