Please accept my apology. I mistakenly took the tenor of the thread wrongly.

why is it so necessary to substitute allegence with ignorance...

sitting is just as valid as standing to an invalid....

- perry

Just a couple of thoughts:

First, I don't know if any of you are aware of how DUMB most grammar school and secondary school teachers really are. (I said "most" for those intelligent teachers on this forum, e.g., KindergartenTeacher.) I taught college classes, and the worst students by far that I had were those going into primary and secondary education. Not too bright. Perhaps the only students dumber on campus were those atheletes getting their majors in "communications".

Our kids are being educated, by and large, by the worst of the worst coming out of college.

Second, there have been many many court cases in which it has been clearly and unequivicably stated that students do not have to say the "Pledge of Allegience" if they have moral or religious objections to saying it. Many cases. The really galling line in the Pledge is the following:

"One nation under God, with liberty and justice for all."

Many students, with more basic intelligence than their teachers, know this isn't true. Today, it should probably read:

"One nation under Bush, with liberty and justice for justus."

Third, the "Pledge of Allegiance" was created in 1954 during the height of the McCarthy paranoia. It hasn't been around since the Declaration of Independence. It isn't a first-rate piece of work. It shouldn't be viewed as historically significant.

Fourth: These students have to go through the National Anthem AND the Pledge of Allegiance? Sounds like the crazy generals in the book "Catch 22" who kept having their troops do more and more "loyal stuff" before they could eat, until eventually there wasn't any time to eat.

The "under God" was added during the "Great Communist Scare" of the McCarthy 50's! It wouldn't bother me greatly if was taken out.
It was valid before the change.

I saw this video and I have a couple of observations and questions. Clearly you cannot force someone to stand for the national anthem etc. So here are somethings I notcied from this video.

1. Teacher seemed to be a little over the top. Why is that? Well either he is just a bad teacher in general, or maybe his class/homeroom tends to need more discipline and yelling might be the only way he can keep them in line. We don't have this background information. Just this one snapshot in time.

2. Seemed like some of the students liked getting a rise out the teacher based on what I saw in the video. It didn't seem like the student had a moral or religious reason for not participating, he just seemed like a punk who was looking to cause a problem.

There's no need to rip the chair out from under a student for refusing to stand for the pledge of allegiance, in the spirit of McCarthyism you just name names of people who refuse to say the pledge and mail the names to the Senate Committee on Unamerican Activities.

Yea -- a punk. They should draft him and send him to Iraq. Make a man out of him. (Depleted uranium does that to you, you know.)

There are far more appropriate ways to handle such a situation. The best is probably "chain of command". You just pass the student up the chain of command and let the higher-ups deal with the situation.

One does not need to justify oneself, and for that matter have any such reasons to NOT perform rites.

No offense taken. But I was really worried I involuntarily hurt the feelings of a valuable swing vote contributor

No I am not justifying anything, just makign observations. In my very first sentence of my post I stated you can't force anyone to participate. I also stated that the teacher seemed to be over the top and gave various reasons as to why that maybe so. We don't know the history of that class prior to this incident. But, if we take this one snapshot in time and use that to base our entire conclusions on this matter than the teacher is clearly in the wrong.

this is actually abuse with intent by the teacher on the student regardless of the constitutional matter.

One thing about it, every time we hear one of those neo-cons sniveling about how "liberal" and "left-wing" our teachers are these days, this video should follow it up. I'm no genius, but I'b be willing to bet that teacher is a conservative.

Won't argue that point! I know one thing!...I wouldn't want to be a teacher in today's environment.