Our troops invaded a country that we should have never went to war with, innocent people are getting killed, and the media acts as if this was a justified war. Why isn't anyone speaking out against this?

I marched in three anti-war protests before the war. The Great One said he didn't need any "focus groups" to tell him what to do.

What do you recommend I do right now? Compete with God?

The anti-war people are protesting - run a search for anti-war protests against Fallujah sp? and you will find a site that shows where they are!

I suggest we organize and have more anti -war rallies. So many lives are going to be lost, and for what?

try this one... They seem to be well organized

http://www.unitedforpeace.org/

Those lives are being lost liberating people from a mass murdering regime.

Those lives are being lost putting a foot hold of democracy, a system that allows you the freedom to say what you want, in an area that is largely against such a freedom.

Those people are being lost redirecting terrorists to waste thier energy attacking us on foreign soil instead of here in our homeland... and it's working.

Those people are being lost helping a population who largely is over joyed and glad that we are there helping them.

Those lives are being lost standing against the actions of evil men, instead of supporting those evil men by calling for inaction against them (i.e. anti-war protests).

Any other questions?

I'd suggest instead of having anti-war rallies, have rallies to support our troops instead and quit giving silent support for dictators. You'll make the world a far better place in the long run.

-------------------

The only thing required for evil men to succeed is for good men to do nothing.

What is a good man but a bad man's teacher. What is a bad man but a good man's job.

We must all fear evil men. But what we must fear most, is the INDIFFERENCE of good men.

Here we are, right here where we have been for the past 2 years...Join us? How about Democrats Against the War?

There are other organizations also, I'm a military family with a unique voice, as well as a preacher in my moderate, tolerant mainstream church, speaking out against the war and against the President.

There are other organizations out there as well hard at work = Veterans for Peace, Vietnam Veterans Against the War. Let's grow a list here on this thread, shall we.

see my aired interview on Newshour with Jim Lehrer, sement Homefront Battles http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/ju...ttle_10-04.html

see my interview, Seattle Times, where met with Moms on Tour for Kerry
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/loca...arymoms18e.html


Military Families Speak Out http://www.mfso.org /

LEARN MORE

Hear the truth about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan from the perspective of the soldiers who have experienced them first-hand: Operation Truth
http://optruth.com/main.cfm?actionId=globalShowStaticCo...

Connect with a group of vets who are speaking out against the war and calling for the troops to come home: Iraq Veterans Against the War
http://www.ivaw.net /

Read testimony from people who are opposed to war in Iraq and who have relatives or loved ones in the military: Military Families Speak Out http://www.mfso.org /

Get the facts about your rights in case of a draft and learn what options you have if you've already enlisted: Central Committee for Conscientious Objectors
http://www.objector.org /

"Those lives are being lost liberating people from a mass murdering regime."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I totally disagree. Are we suppose to go into every country where people are oppressed? If so why didn't we go into South Africa, North Korea, or the Congo? Oh I know why because they don't have oil. Iraq has now become a meeting place for terrorist, and now there's more lawlessness then ever before. This war was unjustified, and illegal.

Ok, the whole line of "We're liberating the Iraqi people from a horrible regime" is a load of crap. That was not and is not the reason we are over there. That was the justification given to us after their first excuse was found to be a lie. It was a ploy to pull on people's heartstrings so that everyone would forget that we had been had.

I find it particularly ironic that we are supposedly "spreading democracy" when we can't even get it right here; when we have a leader who has stated "Dictatorships are great--as long as I'm the Dictator"; when our leaders consistently support oppressive regimes AS LONG AS THEY GIVE US WHAT WE WANT. Pull your heads out of your behinds people. There's a reason that other countries and terrorists hate us--and I'll give you a clue: Its not because of our freedoms. It is because we consistently say one thing and do another. It is because we invade other countries for no reasons. It is because we prop up brutal dictators who play ball. It is because we feel we are so damn entitled to everything the world has to offer, without feeling like we should have to offer anything in exchange! Ok...sorry about the foreign policy rant, but I had to let it out...

But to go point by point in response to Inanna's post...I feel it necessary to clear up some common misconceptions.

1. When Saddam mass murdered the Kurds in the north, it was IMMEDIATELY AFTER the first Gulf War. We still had troops all over the Middle East. The Kurdish people called out to us, and we did NOTHING. The time to take action on Saddam's mass killings was then, twenty years ago, not now.

2. We are not installing anything even close to the freedoms in Iraq that Americans join here. The country is under martial law and is being presided over by a dictator that we installed. Besides, have you read the PATRIOT Act? Our freedoms are not nearly as guarenteed as we'd like to believe.

3. According to all public survey's in Iraq around 80% of Iraqis DO NOT SUPPORT the American presence in their country. Plain and simple: THEY WANT US OUT! Who do you think these insurgents are? They are Iraqi citizens fighting to protect their country and remove the foreign invaders. Read the news--this shouldn't be shocking information.

4. You have got to be kidding me. No offense, but we had NOOOO problem with Saddam, Osama, or the hundreds of other dictators in this world until one of them did something to piss us off. We sold Saddam arms, we funded Osama Bin Laden. We have historically overthrown democracies (hmmm...the Phillipines is a good example of this) in favor of brutal dictators that give us what we want.

5. Anti-war protests are NOT protests against our troops!! Anti-war protests are protests against the WAR. Anti-war protests show that we don't believe that this war was justified and we want to BRING OUR TROOPS HOME SO THAT NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM HAS TO DIE NEEDLESSLY. In fact, it seems to me, for those very reasons, that anti-war protests ARE support the troops rallies. We support them so much, we don't ever want to see them taken advantage of; we don't ever want to see them sent into harms way when there is no threat against our country!!

What sausage/pepperoni is this?

How dare this administration insist that American civilian lives are more important than Iraqi civilian ones.

Might I add:
Should we really consider ourselves so superior?
Was it not Christ who taught, "He who is first will be last"?

PEPPERONI ALERT! WHERE IS THE DANG "REPORT" BUTTON?

We'll speak out in New Orleans on January 20th:

target='_blank'>


http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...?showtopic=2526

Over 100,000 have lost their lives the almost two years since we invaded. It took Saddam Hussein thirty years to kill 300,000. You do the math and tell me who is more lethal to the Iraqi people. Saddam Hussein or Bushco?

*Whew* RED-much?

WAR, AS A POLITICAL TOOL, IS NOT AN OPTION IN THE 21ST CENTURY.

IT IS MURDER. SIMPLE FACT.

THEY DIDN'T LET DIPLOMACY WORK BECAUSE OF THEIR EGOS AND THEIR TESTOSTERONE DEPLETION AS OLD MEN. VIAGRA JUST DIDN'T "DO IT" FOR THEM, SO THEY USE WAR WITH YOUNG BODIES MUTILATED AS THEY GLOAT OF VICTORY "UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE".

THIS IS IMMORAL.
THIS IS ILLEGAL.

THIS PRESIDENT IS DUE FOR WAR CRIMINAL CHARGES.

Look at my history at K/E forum - I walk the walk and talk the talk.

And I PROTEST. Every chance I get.

Seig heil, baby!

At least 10 more troops lost today, which is worrisome, since the Army unit is the 1st Cav, local group, husbands of many of my friends.

Over 8,000 severely injured troops. And that is just on our side. We have lost all sense of reason. This was an unjust war. John Kerry dared to say it, Saddam was bad, but this is worse.

Agree mommadona! PROTEST! This war is nothing short of a CRIME.

WE ACTED AS AN AGGRESSOR NATION AGAINST A NATION THAT DID NOT ATTACK US, THIS IS NOT JUST A TRAGEDY IT FLIES IN THE FACE OF OUR HISTORY AND OUR VALUES!!! THIS WAS DECIDEDLY UN-AMERICAN!!! SIEG HEIL!!!

Several other things to consider:

You can't really give another country democracy. We gave them freedom, which has turned into anarchy because we didn't do our job as an occupying country. Why? Because we wanted to pretend we weren't really occupiers.

Now we want them to vote. But many segments of Iraq fear this because the Shiites have the majority and may want to form a religious government that will take away a lot of the rights they had before - the secular rights that women have had in Iraq that were unknown in other Muslim countries. So there is resistance and always the possibility of full scale civil war.

Saddam has been gone now for about a year, so who are we fighting now? We are fighting the Iraqi people that we came to liberate.

i hate it when i hear people saying the troops are fighting for us, or for our freedom. i'm not sure when we all uprooted and moved to iraq. our freedom is not being threatened in the least bit and it never was. people seem to forget that.

and as for the iraqi people. sure they were glad at first but they made it quite obvious they dont want us anymore. i dont know why we stay there. there's really nowhere else to go but down. and we can try as much as we want but it wont work. remember vietnam..we fought to keep the commies back it was looking hopeful but in the end it didnt work. all we did was get a bunch of people killed for NO reason. i think we're headed down the same path.

I made a comment/post concerning the same thing and got shot down in flames.
I am an Oz Veitnam Vet,I HATE wars and I believe that NO-ONE should be in Iraq.Osama bin Laden has got away,Saddam Hussein has been captured,Bush Jnr did what Bush Snr. couldnt do,so leave Iraq alone and come home.
There are alot of innocent soldiers being killed/injured in Iraq and surrounding areas and why because GWB has decided that he knows best....NEWS FLASH old boy and it aint all good either

Pretty- good post! COMMON SENSE strikes again!

Yes, 10 of our soldiers killed and so were two Iraqi soldiers.

The ReDefeatBushers are doing something this Thursday in DC....

>Second, we're asking everyone in the DC area to come to LaFayette Park in front of the White House on THURSDAY at noon to protest the massacre in Fallujah.  See IraqalypseNow.com for more details.  Bring noisemakers and friends.  Here is what we need to make this a success:  Come to a meeting Tuesday 11/9 at Spy Lounge in Adams Morgan if you will help us organize this.  In particular we need people willing to hold up signs on the bridges on Wednesday morning and leaflet at metro stops to turn out a crowd of 1,000 people.  And we need a few "marshalls" on site on Thursday.  Our goal is to get people to face the truth about Iraq and about the huge deception of World War I and every war since then -- that one more war will bring peace.  If you are not in DC please hold your own event, or send us a contribution to defray the costs of the stage and sound equipment.  Forward this on to friends.

-- David Lytel for ReDefeatBush

http://www.redefeatbush.com/donate to help sustain us

Why do we as Americans have the right to tell another country what they can and cannot do? This is the reason why there is terrorism. If America would just let other countries be, there would be no reason for anyone to hate America.



The only terrorists in Iraq were in the Kurdish controlled part of Iraq. You see Saddam controlled very little of Iraq. The Kurds controlled northern Iraq and America controlled southern Iraq. That means that the only part Saddam controlled is central Iraq. The majority of terrorists were in Saudia Arabia. America attacked a country that was no threat to America and did nothing to America to warrant an attack.



I believe that the majority of Iraqis fear more for their lives now than when Saddam ruled. I don't think that they're happy about being invaded by another country and having this country kill over 100,000 of their innocent countrymen.



Actually they are being lost in support for an evil man named King George. Don't you think that it's odd that the neighbors of an evil man who is such a great threat to the world refused to join arms with America? That tells me that either they hate America more than they hate Saddam, or that they felt that Saddam was not a threat. I believe that the war on terror would have been better served if Bush increased security in America. Terrorists can't hurt America if they're not in America. The problem is is that even though these people are on the FBI watch list, they are still getting into our country. The terrorist who will do America harm are already in America and they are waiting and plotting as we speak.
Did you know that America has a dirty little secret that used to be called the School of the Americas? The school is in Fort Benning, Georgia. Do you know that this school teaches South American military personel terrorist tactics? Did you know that the almost every single massacre in South America since around 1980 had involvement from students of the School of the Americas? So if America is really fighting a war on terror, why does America still train people to be terrorists?
To me Americas military would be better served in Africa where babies are being killed by being raped. Yes that's right, I did say babies are being raped.

This is the good part of your post.


The rest was just trash.

Really, then why did we have to go into Fallujah again?



Those who say it'll never work never get anything done. It's better to at least try than succumb to apathy.



Are you saying that our soldiers would rather have terrorists in our country killing thier loved ones? Which would you rather have? At least in Iraq we have them expending all thier energy there instead of here.



That's funny. The media seems to be largely anti-war, so you care to tell me what media source that would be? I get this from soldiers who are over there actually working with the Iraqi's. I also get this info from Iraqi's both here and abroad. Of course, I've also heard a lot of Iraqi's complain that we don't have ENOUGH troops there. Better to get it from the horses mouth than from liberal news sources.



Oh please. If this was JUST about oil we would have invaded Venezuela. Do you have any concept how much it costs to ship oil from the middle east? How about thinking with your head instead of your hatred? And if this is true... how much oil have we gotten from our war? Funny, I havn't seen prices for gas go down much if this was a war for oil. Where's your proof?



I was in the U.S. Navy and a field medic and I now work in the civillian medical field doing cancer detection.



There's nothing illegal about this war. Saddam broke sanction after sanction and the U.N. refused to do anything about it. Why would they? They were making major money off of him in the oil for food program. France, Germany and Russia were also profiting from him hence thier stance against the war. And all the while, the Iraqi people were starved and murdered. And you say Bush is evil?

ITA! well said.

Umm...yeah, but OUR businesses, yes that's right our AMERICAN oil companies were also profiting heavily from the Oil for Food Program. But, of course, we didn't care about that. Hate to tell you this, but..umm...once again...the Iraqi children were starving DUE TO the sanctions WE placed on that country, not simply because Saddam was a bad guy. Don't get me wrong, I don't support the man, but the reasons we INVADED were total BS. I'm not even going to go into the rest of the innaccuracies of your post (I'm sure someone else will).

You're right. A lot of people were profiting from the program. And the sanctions were largely due to US influence. But those sanctions went into effect because of all the anti-war people. If we'd have just gone in and deposed him the first time we wouldn't be having this discussion now would we?

Are we safer now because Saddam was captured?

7 out of 10 Iraqis think they are. That's a silver lining as far as I'm concerned.

Iraqi Feelings Regarding Invasion

Will we make a difference in the long run. Don't know. I do know that it's far better to at least try to make a difference than live in apathy. <_<

My question exactly, FOR WHAT, if you listen to news there are two different stories, civilians are being slaughtered in Iraq being reported in the BBC news, and US news reports, civilians casualities are light, the government owned media does what the dictator tells what to report on. This is absolutely sickening.

The question was is America safer? Iraqis may very well feel safer, but Bush said we went to war because Saddam was a threat to the United States of America, and that claim has been shot down.

I would believe the BBC over the American media.

How many terrorist attacks have you seen on US soil since 9/11?

If GWB had of done his job we wouldn't have been attacked in the first place. I'm not sure how clear the PDB could have been, it read BIN LADEN DETERMINED TO Attack within USA. How many times has the "terror alert" gone up since we invaded a country that had nothing whatsoever to do with the attack on America? By attacking Iraq Bush has created more terrorist.

9-11 had NOTHING to do with invading Iraq. Desimating Iraq is not making us safer. In fact, the number of terrorists has grown. The damage we are doing in Iraq is fueling the fire. Osama is still on the loose but is capitalizing on the angry Iraqis. Recently, a group in Iraq aligned themselves with Al Queda. Don't fool yourself---extremist Muslims will and are banding together against Americans. And NOW, they have a real reason to do so!

We should NOT have gone into Iraq and now we are stuck over there for at least another decade, destroying, rebuilding, destroying, rebuilding...while large corps like Haliburton profit.

I RESENT that my tax money is being used to SLAUGHTER Iraqi citizens and destroy their country at the expense of thousands of lives of US SOLDIERS!

ITA!

I hate to break it to you, but the CIA castration happened during the Clinton administration and responsibility falls on Congress and the Senate as well, so make sure you place the blame appropriately.

I'm sure some terrorists have been created by this, but in the long run, if things work out well then we may see a dramatic decrease. Only time will tell. But once again, it's better to do something than to do nothing at all.

Iraq had no connections to terrorists before we invaded that country. Like it or not, but Saddam was a dictator and dictators don't like to share power with ANYBODY. Meanwhile, we've got terrorist-sponsered states WITH nuclear power all over the place (Iran, North Korea, etc.), and we've got Al Queda trying to recruit more members by claiming that the United States was going to invade a sovereign, Middle-Eastern country to gain control over its oil. So what do we do? We invade a sovereign, Middle-Eastern country and gain control over its oil. Bam! We just turn Osama Bin Laden into a prophet. We played right into his hands. WE DID EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID WE WERE GOING TO DO. So, all of a sudden, Osama has all sorts of credibility and people are rushing to join Al Queda. The Iraqi people? Well, they were patient with us. They gave us time to try and secure their country, but we didn't secure their country. We secured the oil fields, but didn't secure the borders. We secure the oil fields, but we didn't secure weapons stock-piles. We secure the oil fields but we allowed looting to occur. We secure the oil fields but we didn't secure anything else, leaving the Iraqis doomed to have undrinkable water, no electricity, no jobs, and no security. And, it took them a year to realize that we weren't doing our job in restoring the peace. So they fought back. They thought "hey--if you're not going to do it, we will, and we want you out. We're sick of watching our friends get killed, we're sick of living in bombed out shells of buildings, we're sick of an American occupation."
Can't you acknowledge, for one second, that the Iraqi people probably have a better grasp of the war than we do because they actually live in Iraq?!

.When all else fails blame Bill. Bush failed to protect the country on 911. the buck stops with Bush. Why did we invade Iraq? Sorry I'm not buying the mass graves crap, and all of the other things this corrupt administration has thrown out there. Should we invade, North Korea, Iran, or Congo? When will this end. You can spin this however you chose the bottom line is this war was unjustified, and a waste of American lives and resources.

Hear! Hear! I'm with you!

Muslim extremists have ALWAYS had a reason and they will always find a reason. Wake up and smell the dead bodies of the thousands of civillians they continue to go out of thier way to kill. Our military may have caused some civilian casualties, but we don't go out of our way to cause them. Of course, it also doesn't help with these terrorists and dictators purposefully put civilians in harms way now does it?



Yes, we should have gone into Iraq. We started that mess by putting him there and now we went in and cleaned it up. We took responsibility for our actions. Besides, it wasn't like the U.N. was going to do anything except make money off of the misery going on in that country.

I hate to break it to you, but you are pretty uninformed. There was no real castration of the CIA during Clinton. In fact, Clinton placed more emphasis on counter-terrorism than any of his predecessors. In fact, he believed so strongly that terrorism was going to be the single largest threat to our country, that he created a Terrorism Cszar. That's right, he promoted the counter-terrorism efforts all they way up to a Cabnient level position! And what was the FIRST thing that Bush & Co did? They DEMOTED the Terrorism Cszar, refused to meet with him for months, created "Terrorism Task-forces" that never actually met, ingored intelligence reports, and had proposed to CUT funding for counter-terrorism on September 10,2001!! And, you're trying to tell me that the Bush administration did everything it could do to prevent 9/11? I'm sorry, but the facts don't back up your claim!

ROTFLMAO! As if Bush and Cheney oil buddies aren't.

I am supporting the troups, BY GETTING THEM THE HELL AWAY FROM THIS QUAGMIRE!

You want to look for silent support of dictators? Chile, and our support of Pinochet. Keep on the "US makes friends with Dictators" tour across half of South America, then visit our friends in Africa who are allowed to machette each other without bothering us, Saudi Arabia where they behead people in public .... Then pause for a second and ask yourself whether we really should have abandoned Afghanistan to the Warlords and Drug Runners.

So, should we be in Iraq now? Why should the Iraqis think that they will be treated any different than any other US colony? Why should I support our troups going into "the wrong war, in the wrong place at the wrong time"?