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StillMadAtBush
This just amazes me. I'm at a complete lose to understand this type of thinking.

I guess I'm just a big coward or something, but I put high value on my limbs and if I lost one I sure wouldn't be triing to back to lose the others. sad.gif

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7101643/site/newsweek/

QUOTE
To the Front
Soldiers who lost limbs in Iraq and Afghanistan are doing the unthinkable: Going back into battle

--------------------------------------------

By Pat Wingert and T. Trent Gegax
NewsweekMarch 14 issue - Army S/Sgt. Daniel Metzdorf figured his career as an infantryman was over when he lost his right leg to a roadside bomb in Iraq in January 2004. But back at Walter Reed Army Medical Hospital, Metzdorf saw other amputees ambling by on high-tech prosthetic legs and had a crazy idea: he wanted to go back into battle with the 82nd Airborne. It was a long and painful struggle. The 28-year-old had 19 operations and faced hours of grueling rehab, first learning to walk again, and then to run and swim. Confident that he was ready, Metzdorf applied for reinstatement. But instead of a new post, the Army had another offer: a medical discharge. To a fighter like Metzdorf, quitting didn't seem like an option. "I told them, 'I'm not going to get out'," he says. He applied—and was rejected—twice more before he won over one important ally, his unit commander, who weighed in on his behalf. Finally, the Army relented, assigning Metzdorf to a desk job at Fort Bragg, N.C. He's still angling to get back to combat duty in Iraq. "I'm still an asset," Metzdorf says. "I just want to give back as much as I got."

In previous wars, many severely wounded soldiers died on the battlefield. Amputees who made it home were automatically retired. Now advances in medicine mean more amputees are surviving, and today's high-tech replacement limbs let them lead active lives—something soldiers like Metzdorf aim to do in uniform. George W. Bush buoyed their hopes when he visited Walter Reed in late 2003. "Today, if wounded service members want to remain in uniform and can do the job," Bush said, "the military tries to help them stay."

A small core of determined vets is taking the president at his word. So far, fewer than a dozen have been declared "fit for duty," and many more are training for their comebacks. Top Pentagon officials were at first reluctant. But after hearing personal pleas from wounded vets—and seeing the soldiers' astonishing recoveries firsthand—they reconsidered. The first Marine amputee found fit for duty has just returned from seven months in Iraq. "We realize that a soldier's strong mental and emotional outlook can more than compensate for a changed body," says Lt. Gen. Franklin Hagenbeck, the Army's deputy chief of staff for personnel.


Alex Majoli / Magnum for Newsweek
Pfc. George Perez: The paratrooper, 21, has completed his first successful jump with his new prosthetic leg. He's preparing to head to Afghanistan in May
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The same grit that drew many of these vets to the military in the first place helps push them back into combat. Army Pfc. George Perez, 21, who lost a leg to a roadside bomb in Fallujah, wanted to stay in the service as soon as he found out he could walk again. "Ultimately, I want to do what makes me happy. It's also love of country, but I've got goals. I'm hard to keep down," he says. In May, he'll head to Afghanistan. S/Sgt. David Chatham, 34, won a Silver Star for rescuing troops after a rocket-launched grenade attack outside Fallujah in 2003. He applied his own tourniquet to a nearly severed left ankle. As soon as he was conscious, "I knew I wanted to stay in," he says. "I've been in the Army for more than half of my life. It's my family."


Alex Majoli / Magnum for Newsweek
Capt. David Rozelle: As the 32-year-old Texan prepares to leave for Iraq, CPO Christopher Jones conducts a final fitting on his prosthetic leg
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's not just the grunts who are eager to fight again. This month Army Capt. David Rozelle, 33, who lost part of his right leg to an antitank mine in 2003, will return as commander of the Third Armored Cavalry's regimental headquarters. Hours after surgery, Rozelle's commander stopped by his bedside to promise him another command once he'd healed. "I thought to myself, You can do this, I can go back and serve my country," says Rozelle, who has written about his experience in a new book, "Back in Action."

Some wounded soldiers are willing to do almost anything to get back into uniform. After Senior Airman Anthony Pizzifred, 20, lost his leg just above the ankle in Afghanistan last March, surgeons told him that the best prosthetic leg—one that would allow him to walk, run and wade in the ocean—was designed for those with more severe amputations. Pizzifred wanted maximum mobility as fast as possible. So he told his doctors to take off as much as they needed. They wheeled him back into the operating room and cut off his leg almost to the knee.


Alex Majoli / Magnum for Newsweek
Staff Sgt. Josh Olson: Working out at Walter Reed Army Medical Center's gym. 'For me to walk, I have to use all my abdominal muscles the whole time'
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Rejoining the service isn't necessarily a moneymaking proposition. Pizzifred says the Air Force would pay for a college education and a guaranteed mortgage if he retired, but he passed up the perks for a chance to serve overseas again. "I would have gotten more if I got out than I would by staying in," he says.

For many amputees, returning to combat duty may be an impossible dream. Some have multiple amputations. And those who've lost arms find it very difficult to learn to fire a weapon again. Special Forces Sgt. Andrew McCaffrey, 32, who lost his right arm below the elbow to a grenade in Afghanistan, now hopes to redeploy with the elite Green Berets. He has spent more than a year training and last week was performing field exercises with his unit at Fort Bragg. But base officials said his status was still uncertain. Many amputees can't return to the exact jobs they left. Army S/Sgt. Josh Olson, 25, lost his leg clear up to the hipbone while on foot patrol in Iraq in 2003. Army recruiters asked him to retrain and teach marksmanship instead. Last week Olson was thrilled to learn he'd been declared fit for combat.

Even if they persuade the military to let them go back to work, soldiers have to contend with an even tougher force: their families. Metzdorf is still trying to persuade his. "They think I've lost part of my brain, too," he says. Metzdorf told them not to worry. This time, he joked grimly, he'd be coming back in one piece.
david sobien
What do you want them to do? The millitary is their life. It is similar to getting injured in a steelmill. You recover and return to the only job you know. Sure its a risk in the steelmill, but its what you do. In a sense it is always easeyier to do something you know rather than start something new. The risk is seen as greater in doing something different. Or perhaps they just like what they do. I could not see myself going back but I am not in their shoes.
Frenchy
You have to understand esprit de corps & loyalty to your brothers.
StillMadAtBush
QUOTE(david sobien @ Mar 8 2005, 09:54 PM)
What do you want them to do? The millitary is their life. It is similar to getting injured in a steelmill. You recover and return to the only job you know. Sure its a risk in the steelmill, but its what you do. In a sense it is always easeyier to do something you know rather than start something new. The risk is seen as greater in doing something different. Or perhaps they just like what they do. I could not see myself going back but I am not in their shoes.
*


Perhaps. I do get some of that from some of the military folks here. Behind all the bravado, is all the brain washing, a very myopic viewpoint, and courage that only runs as deep as their next engagement.

Out of Marine bootcamp I was that way for about a month. I guess I wasn't a very good marine, that I didn't let the brainwashing set to deeply. rolleyes.gif
StillMadAtBush
QUOTE(Frenchy @ Mar 8 2005, 10:05 PM)
You have to understand esprit de corps & loyalty to your brothers.
*


Oh, I understand it. That that it is. I also understand other things too.
The_Bammo
QUOTE
You have to understand esprit de corps & loyalty to your brothers.


Lot of da_n reasons play a big ol' factor in wounded troops wanting to return to Iraq.

One could be "Survivor Guilt" another could be revenge on what was done to them and their Bro's.

A platoon in a Combat situation - believe this - becomes a new family (bondage and loyalty). A lot of people want to stay close to their families. So these Troops want to return to the new found family they discovered in war. Not uncommon at all.

There are Troops that feel that Combat is all their good at and want to return. They could not think of doing anything else but fighting a war. (adrenalin rush - big time, new found high of their lives)

A combat platoon is like a street gang or motorcycle club, brothers and sisters, you do not want to let them down, your total devotion is to that platroon (club or gang).

Lot of things can play into why a wounded troop wants to return to war.

Does this do this troop any good? Personally, from what I seen in a combat situation - it beats being depressed and medicated down to the max. Another way of coping with the effects of War. Not saying that this Troop will not need some help when he or she comes back, if they make it back. (big adjustment)

Watch the Band of Brothers some time, the wounded were glad to return to a unit that was deep in combat. You just might get the picture of why they want to go back.
savemefrombush
Lemmings, lemmings!
StillMadAtBush
QUOTE(The_Bammo @ Mar 9 2005, 11:16 AM)
Watch the Band of Brothers some time, the wounded were glad to return to a unit that was deep in combat.  You just might get the picture of why they want to go back. 
*


I saw Band of Brothers. Incredible! And they were brainwashed to the max. Basic training really molded their minds.

A big difference in my viewpoint, is that WWII was a war worth fighting for. Security of the country and of the world. Iraq is complete BS, and would be worth tunneling to escape.
The_Bammo
QUOTE(StillMadAtBush @ Mar 9 2005, 02:06 PM)
I saw Band of Brothers.  Incredible!  And they were brainwashed to the max.  Basic training really molded their minds.

A big difference in my viewpoint, is that WWII was a war worth fighting for.  Security of the country and of the world.  Iraq is complete BS, and would be worth tunneling to escape.
*



No doubt about it, super flick.

Agree with you - a big difference in the type of War and agree total BS but what I stated above is gospel. Fought for BS seen Bro's die and bleed for BS and seen the same thing we are rapping about happen. Extend tours, volunteer for ambush, tunnel rat, etc. - extreme high and could never, ever get that adrenaline rush anywhere else.

Brainwashing - here in the U.S.A. --LOL - Of course it is and was brainwashing, propaganda and it is working. We are still in Iraq and the Nam lasted until May 75. Like I always said about most sheople, as long as it does not effect them -- fudge it! Hang Tough
Marine
QUOTE(david sobien @ Mar 8 2005, 09:54 PM)
What do you want them to do? The millitary is their life. It is similar to getting injured in a steelmill. You recover and return to the only job you know. Sure its a risk in the steelmill, but its what you do. In a sense it is always easeyier to do something you know rather than start something new. The risk is seen as greater in doing something different. Or perhaps they just like what they do. I could not see myself going back but I am not in their shoes.
*

That's not true and you know it David. You were in the Navy, you know not all the Chiefs were floundering around in an alcoholic haze.

There are a great number of people in the military there because they believe it is their life calling and sacrifice to stay in the military.

I can think of a couple of hundred men and women who served 20 years and retired from the military, started a civilian career and have exceled at it. I know a Marine Corps Gunnery Sergeant who retired 10 years before I did who now owns a fleet of fishing charter vessels in Puerto Rico. I know a Navy Chief who retired in the late 80's and is now a Veternarian making over $150,000 a year. Another Navy Chief I know runs a commercial construction company grossing over 100 million a year. The man I'm working for is trying to talk me into being his partner.

You might like to pretend "lifers" can't make it on the outside but if you take a look at retired military people they usually make a career after the military and end up better off than you civilians do.
flydangler
QUOTE(StillMadAtBush @ Mar 9 2005, 12:15 AM)
I do get some of that from some of the military folks here.  Behind all the bravado, is all the brain washing, a very myopic viewpoint, and courage that only runs as deep as their next engagement. 

Out of Marine bootcamp I was that way for about a month.  I guess I wasn't a very good marine, that I didn't let the brainwashing set to deeply.
Hmmmm, methinks your vast experience in the Corps gave you a better understanding than I ever got. During my 20 years served with the Corps while I was in the Navy between 1966 and 1996, including in combat and under fire in a few places, as well as deployments in the Atlantic, the Med, the Pacific, Indian Ocean, to Asia, Europe, Carribean, Africa, Central and South America methinks I never met a brainwashed Marine, or what I recognized as a brainwashed member of any of our military forces, eh?

I did know a lot of good folks that the Corps had changed from individuals caring and thinking only about themselves to members of a team in boot camp, OCS, and/or other training venues the Marines have (we squids got the same kind of training from the Marines in venues at Camp Gieger and Camp Pendleton prior to assignment to USMC units). They were then able to effectively act in unison as a team and developing a sense of camaraderie with those they served with. Methinks they learned that small cohesive units following orders under fire acting in concert with other units, yet able to adapt to changing conditions under leaders that were right there with them were able to engage and beat much larger opposing forces. I doubt that brainwashed troops would have done as well, although there was always "that one person" for whom it seemed the training hadn't succeeded with, they didn't function well as a member of the team, and that those folks were often responsible for many of the casualties I treated, eh?

When you said "I guess I wasn't a very good marine, that I didn't let the brainwashing set to deeply" methinks you may well be correct! 'Twould seem you never even learned that Marine, when used to describe a member of the United States Marine Corps, is capitalized. 'Tis also very possible you may have fallen into the category of those who couldn't or wouldn't function as a member of a cohesive unit, but methinks that's for you to figure out, not me, eh?

In any case 'twould seem your experiences were much different than my own. Maybe other Marines here might comment and/or give us their own perspective, eh? Never actually having been a Marine 'twould seem I might not fully understand what I saw and experienced.
Marine
QUOTE(flydangler @ Mar 11 2005, 05:37 PM)
Hmmmm, methinks your vast experience in the Corps gave you a better understanding than I ever got. During  my 20 years served with the Corps while I was in the Navy between 1966 and 1996, including in combat and under fire in a few places, as well as deployments in the Atlantic, the Med, the Pacific, Indian Ocean, to Asia, Europe, Carribean, Africa,  Central and South America methinks I never met a brainwashed Marine, or what I recognized as a brainwashed member of any of our military forces, eh?

I did know a lot of good folks that the Corps had changed from individuals caring and thinking only about themselves to members of a team in boot camp, OCS, and/or other training venues the Marines have (we squids got the same kind of training from the Marines in venues at Camp Gieger and Camp Pendleton prior to assignment to USMC units). They were then able to effectively act in unison as a team and developing a sense of camaraderie with those they served with. Methinks they learned that small cohesive units following orders under fire acting in concert with other units, yet able to adapt to changing conditions under leaders that were right there with them were able to engage and beat much larger opposing forces. I doubt that brainwashed troops would have done as well, although there was always "that one person" for whom it seemed the training hadn't succeeded with, they didn't function well as a member of the team, and that those folks were often responsible for many of the casualties I treated, eh?

When you said "I guess I wasn't a very good marine, that I didn't let the brainwashing set to deeply" methinks you may well be correct! 'Twould seem you never even learned that Marine, when used to describe a member of the United States Marine Corps, is capitalized. 'Tis also very possible you may have fallen into the category of those who couldn't or wouldn't function as a member of a cohesive unit, but methinks that's for you to figure out, not me, eh?

In any case 'twould seem your experiences were much different than my own. Maybe other Marines here might comment and/or give us their own perspective, eh? Never actually having been a Marine 'twould seem I might not fully understand what I saw and experienced.
*

Doc, a month out of boot camp a Marine is still in ITR and doesn't have enough time to think about not being a good Marine. Either he has a bad memory or something else.
david sobien
Marine... There are always exceptional individuals in every population. No difference in the military. However in my experience I saw more drunks then one would think existed in any population. I seen them drunk even on duty. They existed in my time in the Navy. That would be in the time frame of 1965 to 1969. I did not wish to join them and be dead at 45 of what ever drunks die of. I was tired of the life at sea and I saw all of the ports and bars I wished to see.
Marine
QUOTE(david sobien @ Mar 11 2005, 11:04 PM)
Marine... There are always exceptional individuals in every population. No difference in the military. However in my experience I saw more drunks then one would think existed in any population. I seen them drunk even on duty. They existed in my time in the Navy. That would be in the time frame of 1965 to 1969. I did not wish to join them and be dead at 45 of what ever drunks die of. I was tired of the life at sea and I saw all of the ports and bars I wished to see.
*

I'm not going to deny there were people with drinking problems in the military. I can remember an E-5 Sergeant who went home for lunch everyday and drank at least two six packs of beer. I remember a Staff Sergeant who would open a fifth of whisky and make a big deal about throwing the bottle cap away. But you know something David, those people were the exception, not the rule.

Actually when it came to drinking in excess I saw more of it in the lower ranks, E-4 and below. And that was kids being away from home and thinking that getting drunk was the macho thing to do. I know because I used to be a drunk but I have not touched a drop of alcohol since 1974 and I made E-5 Sergeant. When I decided to make the Marines a career I, like almost every other career minded Marine, put alchohol out of my life. You can't be a good Marine and be a drunk, the two are incompatible.

I sat here for a long time trying to think of someone I knew during the 30 years I was a Marine who after at least 20 years retired and wasn't a success at what they wanted to do after they retired, I couldn't think of one. I could list of dozens of people who I worked with who retired from the military, went into civilian life, and are highly successful.

And you civilians had at least a 20 year head start on them, and by all counts they are highly sucessful human beings in a new career.

The time frame I was in the Marines was 1970 to 2000, I suspect when the entire military went to an all volunteer force, your drunk Chiefs either had to change their ways or they didn't get the opportunity to be drunk Chiefs anymore.
Acebass
You guys remember the old saying "There's the right way, the wrong way, and there's the (insert service) way" and it illistrates perfectly, why we are having these kinds of discussions.
For the record I just wish we could bury all of this, it's devisive, and counter productive. It assumes that all retirees were drunks and couldn't make it on the outside. I believe in judging an individual on their own merits rather than the actions of the group.
I could tell you the story of the red nosed Tech Sgt that I knew in Guam. The drunkin poker games in Thailand, but these were men with a different mission in life, they chose, for whatever reason, to take a job were they were just as likely as not, to be asked to give up their lives, you have to really inspire an individual to get them to do that. It makes you think a little differently.
I personally don't think that GIs and civilians should mix, it scares the hell out of the civilians to really know whats inside a GIs mind sometimes, but they have to think that way in order to get the job done. I remember when I turned 38 I thought to myself that I could have retired with 20 if I'd have stayed in, but for me it wouldn't have worked. I'm not one to take orders very good, and I'm a free spirtited person, the military frowns on that.
So we've all done our thing, in life. and we find ourselves here, after so many years, working together for a common good, does it really matter who did what, it's what you did that mattered.
david sobien
I never said everyone was a drunk. But there were people who had to have a beer for breakfast or their hands would shake. There were quite a few of them in my Navy experience. But when I worked for the IRS for 27 years I only know 2 individuals like that. Mabey there were more and I did not know it. In the military you live in close quarters so that its hard to hide the fact that that you are a drunk. I am not trying to denigrate military service. I am just relating my experience as I saw it.
Marine
QUOTE(david sobien @ Mar 12 2005, 03:44 PM)
I never said everyone was a drunk. But there were people who had to have a beer for breakfast or their hands would shake. There were quite a few of them in my Navy experience. But when I worked for the IRS for 27 years I only know 2 individuals like that. Mabey there were more and I did not know it. In the military you live in close quarters so that its hard to hide the fact that that you are a drunk. I am not trying to denigrate military service. I am just relating my experience as I saw it.
*

David, what got this exchange started was your post that these guys who got hurt in the fullfillment of their duties wanting to return to their units and you making the comment it was because they couldn't do anything else.

I got hurt in 1994 and had to fight hard to stay in the Marines, the easy way would have been to take a medical discharge and get disability, I got asked several times if that's what I wanted. Well, that's not what I wanted, I wanted to stay in the Marines until I was ready to leave and 30 years was the number I had been shooting for since 1974. I had been an ANGLICAN 16 years when I got hurt.

I really understand what's going through these guy's minds about wanting to return to there units.
Alexander38
When my godfather lost two & ˝ fingers on his right hand due to a fairly unlucky accident in a metal workshop, he got the oppotuinty to continue on in the legion, since he had gone throu his first 5 years whitout any problems and had served admirably in the legion in Algier and got promotet to sergant during the civil war. But as luck would have it he meet his future wife while his reconvalsence and ekstended leave in Denmark, As he told my father later on, if he had meet her after his second contract period was up, he would have signed up again, since as a ten year man he was given leave to marry and take her whit him, in the end it was a combination off not seeing his love, being placed behind a desk & his experince in Algier that made him get a honorable discharge, BUT it was still one off the hardest choices he had ever made according to himself.

By the way how come that far and away most off the books about the legion is written by those that couldn't take it, and ran away before their time is up??
Is it the same whit other services like the Marines? i very much doubt it, but it is curious after all i think.
david sobien
Marine... Reread my post. I did not say they could not do anything else. I said that the easy course for some people is to continue to do the familiar. That goes with most people in every profession not just the military. After all, I got out and earned a college degree and worked a different profession the rest of my working life. If I can do it anyone can. I would be the last one to say that anyone from the military could not do anything else.
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