Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: VIDEO OF ASSAULT APPROVED BY SOTOMAYOR ON YOUTUBE
Common Ground Common Sense > Issues that Affect Our Lives > Judicial System
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 25 2009, 06:29 PM) *
I think they will both protect the power structure of the ruling class...

I think Roberts is more capable of doing so...

Have you studied the composition and structure of what is called the "modern" Supreme Court, rla?

Have you read Closed Chambers: The Rise, Fall, and Future of the Modern Supreme Court by Edward Lazarus?

If not, you should consider it ....

As chief justice, Roberts does have the power to appoint who he will to write a certain decision ....

He can influence policy in that way .....

But outside of that, he really does not have any "power" .....

He cannot fire any of those other judges ....

He could possibly create a very hostile environment for them and force them out, but they could gang up and do the same to him ....

So I don't see where Roberts has any more power than Sotomayor with regard to protecting the interests of the ruling class ....

AND ....

Sotomayor is very much on record as blatantly HAVING ALREADY DONE SO in the Plante v. Jimino case ....

With Roberts, it seems to be more a matter of speculation that he might do so, or is likely to do so .....

I am not aware of any real blatant abuses of law by Roberts to date ....

I am not saying that there isn't such evidence ....

I have just never heard it being talked about, if it does exist ....

And Roberts and Sotomayor really come from the same cradle, rla ....

Both are on the court because of the Bush family ....

And so ...
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Aug 26 2009, 06:11 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 25 2009, 06:29 PM) *
I think they will both protect the power structure of the ruling class...

I think Roberts is more capable of doing so...

Have you studied the composition and structure of what is called the "modern" Supreme Court, rla?

Have you read Closed Chambers: The Rise, Fall, and Future of the Modern Supreme Court by Edward Lazarus?

If not, you should consider it ....

As chief justice, Roberts does have the power to appoint who he will to write a certain decision ....

He can influence policy in that way .....

But outside of that, he really does not have any "power" .....

He cannot fire any of those other judges ....

He could possibly create a very hostile environment for them and force them out, but they could gang up and do the same to him ....

So I don't see where Roberts has any more power than Sotomayor with regard to protecting the interests of the ruling class ....

AND ....

Sotomayor is very much on record as blatantly HAVING ALREADY DONE SO in the Plante v. Jimino case ....

With Roberts, it seems to be more a matter of speculation that he might do so, or is likely to do so .....

I am not aware of any real blatant abuses of law by Roberts to date ....

I am not saying that there isn't such evidence ....

I have just never heard it being talked about, if it does exist ....

And Roberts and Sotomayor really come from the same cradle, rla ....

Both are on the court because of the Bush family ....

And so ...


Roberts is a much more accomplished, "Wordsmith." His entire career has been devoted to the nuances imbedded
in Constitutional History and using this specialized knowledge base to allow "Fascist-leaning" politicians to have
their way...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 26 2009, 06:36 AM) *
Roberts is a much more accomplished, "Wordsmith."

His entire career has been devoted to the nuances imbedded in Constitutional History and using this specialized knowledge base to allow "Fascist-leaning" politicians to have their way...

In that regard, rla, he and Sotomayor are indeed peas of a pod, because she allowed "Fascist-leaning" Rensselaer County Executive Kathleen Jimino to have her way in the Plante v. Jimino case ....

Talk about "FASCIST-leaning", alright ....

Having the power to order the incarceration of anyone you dislike or perceive as an enemy, or whose property you covet, in a secure mental facility, is about as fascist as it gets, I would say ...

And I am glad that we have this thread running, rla ....

I am getting some interesting assessments out of you in here that I don't or likely wouldn't run into elsewhere, since this subject matter is somewhat unique, and directly relevant to the times ahead of us yet to come ....

Sotomayor is a soldier, rla ....

WHAT GENERAL WILL SHE FOLLOW?

For whose army will she fight?

Will she be against Roberts, rla?

I will say right now that I seriously doubt it ....

AND ....

She is like an iceberg, rla .....

Most of what she does on the Supreme Court will be concealed from our eyes, and here, I am talking DENIAL of certiorari ....

We will never know, rla, the lengths she will have gone to to keep civil rights cases out of the U.S. Supreme Court, for example ....

And unless there are written decisions coming out every now and then, we will never know what is going on between Sotomayor and Roberts behind the scenes ....

And let us face it, rla ....

Obama did not appoint Sotomayor as someone to take power away from him ....

And the DEMOCRAT RUBBER-STAMPS in the U.S. Senate did not RUBBER STAMP her appointment because they thought she woud be someone to take power away from a sitting DEMOCRAT PRESIDENT who has just appointed his own secret police ....

And so ...
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Aug 26 2009, 04:35 PM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 26 2009, 06:36 AM) *
Roberts is a much more accomplished, "Wordsmith."

His entire career has been devoted to the nuances imbedded in Constitutional History and using this specialized knowledge base to allow "Fascist-leaning" politicians to have their way...

In that regard, rla, he and Sotomayor are indeed peas of a pod, because she allowed "Fascist-leaning" Rensselaer County Executive Kathleen Jimino to have her way in the Plante v. Jimino case ....

Talk about "FASCIST-leaning", alright ....

Having the power to order the incarceration of anyone you dislike or perceive as an enemy, or whose property you covet, in a secure mental facility, is about as fascist as it gets, I would say ...

And I am glad that we have this thread running, rla ....

I am getting some interesting assessments out of you in here that I don't or likely wouldn't run into elsewhere, since this subject matter is somewhat unique, and directly relevant to the times ahead of us yet to come ....

Sotomayor is a soldier, rla ....

WHAT GENERAL WILL SHE FOLLOW?

For whose army will she fight?

Will she be against Roberts, rla?

I will say right now that I seriously doubt it ....

AND ....

She is like an iceberg, rla .....

Most of what she does on the Supreme Court will be concealed from our eyes, and here, I am talking DENIAL of certiorari ....

We will never know, rla, the lengths she will have gone to to keep civil rights cases out of the U.S. Supreme Court, for example ....

And unless there are written decisions coming out every now and then, we will never know what is going on between Sotomayor and Roberts behind the scenes ....

And let us face it, rla ....

Obama did not appoint Sotomayor as someone to take power away from him ....

And the DEMOCRAT RUBBER-STAMPS in the U.S. Senate did not RUBBER STAMP her appointment because they thought she woud be someone to take power away from a sitting DEMOCRAT PRESIDENT who has just appointed his own secret police ....

And so ...


Sptomayor can teach the doctrine in the streets...It takes a Mr Roberts to teach it at Sunday School...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 26 2009, 03:41 PM) *
Sptomayor can teach the doctrine in the streets...

It takes a Mr Roberts to teach it at Sunday School...

As I say, rla ....

A loyal soldier ....

Elsewise, she wouldn't be there, regardless of her gender or ethnicity ....

And so ...
Livyjr
That Sotomayor likely is incapable of standing up to Roberts would make her the more dangerous to our rights and liberties, rla ....

Most especially since she has already demonstrated herein that she DOES NOT care about them, and is willing to see them sold to the highest bidder, in this case, PROTECTED PERSON Jeffrey Pelletier of Poestenkill, Rensselaer Copunty, State of New York ...

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 26 2009, 06:36 AM) *
Roberts is a much more accomplished, "Wordsmith." His entire career has been devoted to the nuances imbedded in Constitutional History and using this specialized knowledge base to allow "Fascist-leaning" politicians to have their way...

rla .....

While this may indeed be so, it must be very subtle, because it is below my radar, which is to say that I am not consciously aware of it ....

And I guess that you would expect that from nuance .....

But what Sotomayor did in New York State was not subtle at all, rla, nor was it in any way nuanced .....

It was right in your face, actually .....

Which is how it has to be when power of being wielded .....

The IRON FIST, rla ....

There can't be any nuance whatsoever associated with the IRON FIST, or people don't respect it for what it is ....

People in New York State will remember Sonia Sotomayor far into the future as a monster, rla ....

By contrast, you would have trouble finding someone who could tell you who John Roberts even was ......

Or what he did for a living ....

And so ...
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Aug 27 2009, 04:32 PM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 26 2009, 06:36 AM) *
Roberts is a much more accomplished, "Wordsmith." His entire career has been devoted to the nuances imbedded in Constitutional History and using this specialized knowledge base to allow "Fascist-leaning" politicians to have their way...

rla .....

While this may indeed be so, it must be very subtle, because it is below my radar, which is to say that I am not consciously aware of it ....

And I guess that you would expect that from nuance .....

But what Sotomayor did in New York State was not subtle at all, rla, nor was it in any way nuanced .....

It was right in your face, actually .....

Which is how it has to be when power of being wielded .....

The IRON FIST, rla ....

There can't be any nuance whatsoever associated with the IRON FIST, or people don't respect it for what it is ....

People in New York State will remember Sonia Sotomayor far into the future as a monster, rla ....

By contrast, you would have trouble finding someone who could tell you who John Roberts even was ......

Or what he did for a living ....

And so ...


Maybe at the fringes occassionally brute force is important to keeping the shadow government in place...I think conformity through social and financial rewards is much more lethal...
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Aug 27 2009, 04:32 PM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 26 2009, 06:36 AM) *
Roberts is a much more accomplished, "Wordsmith." His entire career has been devoted to the nuances imbedded in Constitutional History and using this specialized knowledge base to allow "Fascist-leaning" politicians to have their way...

rla .....

While this may indeed be so, it must be very subtle, because it is below my radar, which is to say that I am not consciously aware of it ....

And I guess that you would expect that from nuance .....

But what Sotomayor did in New York State was not subtle at all, rla, nor was it in any way nuanced .....

It was right in your face, actually .....

Which is how it has to be when power of being wielded .....

The IRON FIST, rla ....

There can't be any nuance whatsoever associated with the IRON FIST, or people don't respect it for what it is ....

People in New York State will remember Sonia Sotomayor far into the future as a monster, rla ....

By contrast, you would have trouble finding someone who could tell you who John Roberts even was ......

Or what he did for a living ....

And so ...


3 or 4 years from now you would have trouble finding someone who could tell you who Sonia Sotomayor is, even with a more unusual name and personna than John Roberts...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 27 2009, 03:46 PM) *
Maybe at the fringes occassionally brute force is important to keeping the shadow government in place...

I think conformity through social and financial rewards is much more lethal...

QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jun 2 2009, 02:04 PM) *
FINDINGS OF FACT OF FEDERAL DISTRICT COURT FOR NORTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK:

On July 7 (2001), Plante conducted an investigation of defendants Aiken (engineer) and McGrath’s “deliberate falsification of inspection data and fraudulent submissions” resulting in the issuance of the Pelletier permit.

During Plante's investigation, Pelletier assaulted him.

On August 9 (2001), defendant Reiter (Rensselaer County Director of Veterans’ Services) warned Plante to “back off” the Pelletier investigation because he (Pelletier) was a “protected person” in the county.

On August 17 (2001), defendant Jimino (Rensselaer County Executive) allegedly phoned Plante threatening to harm him if he did not stop his investigation.

QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 20 2005, 06:29 AM)
18 August 2001

Honorable Kathleen Jimino
Rensselaer County Executive
Rensselaer County Office Building
1600 Seventh Ave.
Troy, New York 12180

RE: Pelletier, Poestenkill (T); R.C.H.D. Permit #PO-374-I-RB

Dear Madam Rensselaer County Executive:

Please find enclosed herein for your personal records as Rensselaer County Executive in connection with this above matter and for action by yourself in your capacity as Rensselaer County Executive with oversight responsibility for the operation of the Rensselaer County Department of Health a copy of the videotape http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M89m5TEuu3M which I had previously personally hand-delivered to your immediate subordinate, Denise Ayers, Rensselaer County Public Health Director in connection with this matter on the morning of Monday, August 13, 2001 in the north end conference room on the second floor of the Rensselaer County Office Building, 1600 7th Ave., Troy, New York 12180.

As a permanently disabled Viet Nam war veteran residing in Rensselaer County, I'm going to ask that you view this videotape in its entirety in your capacity as Chief Executive Officer of Rensselaer County, and that you then clearly inform me in writing of the position you are taking in the matter as the direct supervisor of Rensselaer County Public Health Director Denise Ayers.

I would also ask you to carefully rethink the import of your words to me on Friday afternoon regarding your personal patronage of Jeffry Pelletier and his actions in this matter; and finally, I would ask you to carefully consider how such words of encouragement uttered by people in positions of power such as yourself to Mr. Pelletier directly serve to incite the overt acts of violence you will see your client, Mr. Pelletier, inflicting on me in the video.

Thanking you in advance for your attention to this matter, I remain

Respectfully, PLAINTIFF

I don't believe offense was intended, rla, so I won't take any ....

But I don't believe that I am living out at the fringes of society ....

And the engineer Paul Plante was certainly not living out on any fringes ....

He was quite in the mainstream up here, actually, when it came to CONSTITUTIONAL GOVERNMENT, and an individual's rights under the law ....

Which is something that he proved time after time, in both civil court and criminal court up here, UNTIL ....

Until the August 22, 2001 PSYCHIATRIC TAKE-DOWN, which was the end of him ....

That is the real act of violence, rla ....

The violence shown in that videotape accompanying this thread was just the warm-up act, the precursor ....

And up here, rla, the politicians have a saying, and I have heard it from their lips myself in connection with Paul Plante:

"EVERYONE HAS A PRICE; AND EVERYONE HAS A LIMIT!"

"IF WE CAN'T REACH THE ONE (price), THEN WE WILL TAKE YOU TO THE OTHER (violence and pain)!"

What you are saying above here seems to be a corrollary of that ....

In a small rural county like Rensselaer County in New York State, rla, there is not much sophistication, at all ....

It really is a brute force kind of place reminiscent of MISSISSIPPI BURNING or DELIVERANCE ....

For someone like Kathleen Jimino to hold power in Rensselaer County, she cannot be afraid to use a blacksnake whip, rla ....

That is what this following sentence from that 18 August 2001 letter from Plante to Rensselaer County Executive Kathleen Jimino above here is all about, rla, VIOLENCE AS A TOOL OF PUBLIC POLICY IN RENSSELAER COUNTY IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK:

I would also ask you to carefully rethink the import of your words to me on Friday afternoon regarding your personal patronage of Jeffry Pelletier and his actions in this matter; and finally, I would ask you to carefully consider how such words of encouragement uttered by people in positions of power such as yourself to Mr. Pelletier directly serve to incite the overt acts of violence you will see your client, Mr. Pelletier, inflicting on me in the video.

end quotes

And the video Plante refers to in there is the video accompanying this thread, rla ....

Jimino had a copy of that videotape right back at the beginning, BEFORE she ordered that Plante be incarcerated as an alleged dangerous mental
patient in the secure mental facility of Northeast Health, Inc. in Troy, New York .....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 27 2009, 03:50 PM) *
3 or 4 years from now you would have trouble finding someone who could tell you who Sonia Sotomayor is, even with a more unusual name and personna than John Roberts...

Perhaps down in Arkansas, rla ....

Yes, down there, that may well be so ....

Or in Louisiana .....

And I bet in Texas, they don't know who she is right now ....

But up here, rla, she is as infamous today as she became back in November of 2005 when she made it damn clear to everybody in the federal Appeals Court of the 2d Federal Circuit that she personally thought that Paul Plante was a piece of $***, and if she had it in her power, rla, I think that she would have put dogs on him to tear him apart, or she would have had the marshalls throw Plante down on the floor so she could come down and $*** right in his face to make her point known real well to all the candid world that was there watching that day ....

THERE IS NO PLACE FOR INTEGRITY IN HER COURT!

I was there as a witness to that, rla, and I will tell you what ....

It is burned into my consciousness forever ....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 27 2009, 03:46 PM) *
Maybe at the fringes occassionally brute force is important to keeping the shadow government in place...

I think conformity through social and financial rewards is much more lethal...

There may be a shadow government in place in New York State, rla ....

That is possible at the state level ....

But not in Rensselaer County .....

If there is a shadow government there, it is not at all visible ....

What is visible is the threat of violence against one that is waiting if one were to be foolish enough to try and tackle corruption in Rensselaer County ....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 26 2009, 03:41 PM) *
Sptomayor can teach the doctrine in the streets...

It takes a Mr Roberts to teach it at Sunday School...

QUOTE(Livyjr @ Aug 27 2009, 04:20 PM) *
In a small rural county like Rensselaer County in New York State, rla, there is not much sophistication, at all ....

It really is a brute force kind of place reminiscent of MISSISSIPPI BURNING or DELIVERANCE ....

For someone like Kathleen Jimino to hold power in Rensselaer County, she cannot be afraid to use a blacksnake whip, rla ....

That is what this following sentence from that 18 August 2001 letter from Plante to Rensselaer County Executive Kathleen Jimino above here is all about, rla, VIOLENCE AS A TOOL OF PUBLIC POLICY IN RENSSELAER COUNTY IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK:

I would also ask you to carefully rethink the import of your words to me on Friday afternoon regarding your personal patronage of Jeffry Pelletier and his actions in this matter; and finally, I would ask you to carefully consider how such words of encouragement uttered by people in positions of power such as yourself to Mr. Pelletier directly serve to incite the overt acts of violence you will see your client, Mr. Pelletier, inflicting on me in the video.

Your characterization makes Roberts sound like a scholar, rla, while it makes Sotomayor sound like a common thug ....

And it is interesting that out of the whole constellation available to him, Obama homed right in on the thug ....

And then the Democrats mindlessly ganged up to RUBBER-STAMP the thug to a seat on the highest court in the land ....

It is truly a sign of the times we are in, rla, that such a thing COULD come to pass ...

And that it then actually did ....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 27 2009, 03:50 PM) *
3 or 4 years from now you would have trouble finding someone who could tell you who Sonia Sotomayor is, even with a more unusual name and personna than John Roberts...

Even in here, rla, it seems only a handful of people actually watched those confirmation hearings ...

And if you did a poll among those in America who did watch, what you would likely find is people recalling this giddy woman who made what tazvil04 called a lot of bizarre faces and laughing a lot as a pack of seeming fools peppered her with a lot of meaningless questions about God knows what ....

And so ...
graham4anything
Sonia is like someone's grandmother, I really think you should stop calling her a "thug"

but its your right to continue calling her that, but I do think it hurts your case. (that's the arneoker in me talking). Feel free to keep doing it though,this is a free country after all.
Arneoker
Livyjr can believe what he believes, as I am sure you would agree Graham.

I must say though that he seems a bit shocked that others sometimes believe something else...
graham4anything
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 28 2009, 06:38 AM) *
Livyjr can believe what he believes, as I am sure you would agree Graham.

I must say though that he seems a bit shocked that others sometimes believe something else...


I do believe you are correct

though I know what I believe is indisputable most of the time
Livyjr
QUOTE(graham4anything @ Aug 28 2009, 04:25 AM) *
Sonia is like someone's grandmother, I really think you should stop calling her a "thug"

QUOTE(Livyjr @ Aug 28 2009, 04:10 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 26 2009, 03:41 PM) *

Sptomayor can teach the doctrine in the streets...

It takes a Mr Roberts to teach it at Sunday School...

Your characterization makes Roberts sound like a scholar, rla, while it makes Sotomayor sound like a common thug ....

And so ...



Thug is as thug does, graham ...

And if someone has a thug for a grandmother, I commisserate with them, but you know what, graham?

They wouldn't be the first ....

Look at Ma Barker, for example ....

And she has plenty of company here in the good old USA ....

And how can I hurt my case, graham?

The case was over long ago ....

In fact, there never really was a case, graham ....

IN DEMOCRATIC AMERICA, MIGHT IS WHAT MAKES RIGHT, NOT LAW ....

And this thread is simply an illustration of that ....

A CASE STUDY of real American history ....

And Sotomayor is an untouchable now that she is up on the "high" court, as is Kathleen Jimino and Jeffrey Pelletier, both of whom have "THE ARM" of Sotomayor firmly draped around their shoulders in group photographs for all the candid world to see ....

"SEE WHO WE ARE PROTECTED BY?"

"GET OUT OF OUR WAY!"

So what we are talking about in here, graham, is modern American history .....

This is where we are, folks ....

This is how we got here .....

And yes, but for this forum and free speech, you would not have heard about it otherwise .....

Especially at this SHAM where the RUBBER STAMP DEMOCRATS rubber stamped the giddy Sotomayor right on up onto a seat at the U.S. Supreme court, which court is a supreme farce and mockery here in DEMOCRATIC America ....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 28 2009, 04:38 AM) *
Livyjr can believe what he believes, as I am sure you would agree Graham.

Of course I can, Arneoker ....

Your father went to war to defend my right to do so ....

And why should I dishonor his service and sacrifice by becoming a bootlicker or lapdog or toady believing only what is told to me by some government propaganda organ?

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 28 2009, 04:38 AM) *
Livyjr can believe what he believes, as I am sure you would agree Graham.

I must say though that he seems a bit shocked that others sometimes believe something else...

Sorry, Arneoker, but here, I must assert myself once more to pop yet another of your many bubbles or balloons ....

I am not at all shocked by what many people in here believe, or out there, for that matter ....

I am a student of history, afterall ....

You know: "Those (like Arneoker) who use a mirror of brass can see to set their cap; those (like Livyjr) who use the mirror of antiquity can predict the rise and fall of nations" ....

So if I seem shocked, Arneoker, that is simply a misimpression in your mind that is likely a result of your own conditioning in group think ....

You think that I am shocked by how many people in this country and even in this forum are firmly locked into a group think mode, and I can assure you that I am not, Arneoker ....

Well, okay ....

Let us say that I am indeed curious about it ....

But "shocked" is much too inaccurate to describe how I see it ....

GROUP THINK is a sign of incipient societal failure, Arneoker .....

Did you know that, dude?

I bet not ....

Well, hey, Arneoker ....

Look at the time, would you ....

I must be running ....

More research to conduct before this evening ....

But never fear ....

I will be back and the discussion will continue ....

For I find this social anthropology to be a fascinating field of study ....

I mean, how many lifetimes must pass before you again find yourself confronted with the collapse of a nation ...

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(graham4anything @ Aug 28 2009, 04:46 AM) *
though I know what I believe is indisputable most of the time

Yes, dear gentle graham ....

Pretty much all of the time, anyway ....

Although I think you are wrong about Sotomayor being somebody's grandmother ....

And so ...
Arneoker
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Aug 28 2009, 07:22 AM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 28 2009, 04:38 AM) *
Livyjr can believe what he believes, as I am sure you would agree Graham.

I must say though that he seems a bit shocked that others sometimes believe something else...

Sorry, Arneoker, but here, I must assert myself once more to pop yet another of your many bubbles or balloons ....

I am not at all shocked by what many people in here believe, or out there, for that matter ....

You did seem rather shocked by what Cutecat said. Hence my reaction, all that psychoanalysis notwithstanding.
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 28 2009, 05:26 AM) *
You did seem rather shocked by what Cutecat said.

Hence my reaction, all that psychoanalysis notwithstanding.

Lawyers in court and method actors on TV soap operas also seem shocked a lot, Arneoker, all that psychoanalysis notwithstanding .....

What cutecat said in this thread is now a part of the record of American history ....

I was surprised at how easily Rome's republic fell ....

And I was surprised at how easily the Germans embraced Hitler ....

Surprise, Arneoker, not shock ....

BUT .....

Today, having studied all of what has gone before, I am not at all surprised and certainly not shocked that cutecat and yourself are so very passe and accepting of another American citizen having his human and civil rights stripped from him by a federal judge ....

Because being an American citizen anymore is really an empty concept ....

It does not mean anything, just as being a Roman citizen no longer meant anything when Julius Caesar seized power in Rome back when ....

Like then, today, here in your America, Arneoker, and this is really what this thread is all about, you are either in with the IN CROWD, as Jeffrey Pelletier clearly is, and he got there because he had the money and wherewithal to buy his way in ....

Or you are out in the cold ....

And so ....

NO MORE RULE OF LAW, Arneoker ....

RULE OF MONEY ....

And so ...

Just want to keep the scorecard balanced, Arneoker ....

So the candid world can tell what time it is ....

And so ...
Livyjr
rla ....

If you are still around in here ....

How many American presidents since George Washington have even paid lip service to the U.S. Constitution?

And how many have been openly contemptuous of it, with impunity?

rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Aug 29 2009, 06:43 AM) *
rla ....

If you are still around in here ....

How many American presidents since George Washington have even paid lip service to the U.S. Constitution?

And how many have been openly contemptuous of it, with impunity?


Its sorta like Christians and the Bible or Boses and the labor contract...

On the other hand, everything is relative and its not an all or nothing thing...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 29 2009, 05:53 AM) *
On the other hand, everything is relative and its not an all or nothing thing...

Here I would have to disagree, rla ....

If there is a law that governs your conduct in our community, and everyday, I see you openly and flagrantly either violating that law, and contravening it, or totally ignoring it, and you are above me in the social strata, then what you are doing is indoctrinating me, or inculcating in me a belief that the law is worthless and ridiculous ....

Or do you in your turn dispute that?

And the Bible is one thing, rla ....

The U.S. Constitution is an entirely different thing ....

The Bible is a matter of individual conscience ....

If you are going to a church, and each week the minister pisses all over the Bible as a worthless piece of $***, you can un-join that congregation and go find another ....

It is a much different thing in my mind when a U.S. president openly pisses all over the U.S. Constitution, which is supposed to be the LAW OF THE LAND here ....

If it is not the LAW OF THE LAND for everyone, starting with the most high and powerful, then it is NOT the law of the land, at all ....

It is then just a worthless piece of paper ....

You advocate for a constitutional democratic something or other in here, rla ....

How is yours going to work if the one we already have CANNOT and DOES NOT work ....

And so ...
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Aug 29 2009, 07:07 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 29 2009, 05:53 AM) *
On the other hand, everything is relative and its not an all or nothing thing...

Here I would have to disagree, rla ....

If there is a law that governs your conduct in our community, and everyday, I see you openly and flagrantly either violating that law, and contravening it, or totally ignoring it, and you are above me in the social strata, then what you are doing is indoctrinating me, or inculcating in me a belief that the law is worthless and ridiculous ....

Or do you in your turn dispute that?

And the Bible is one thing, rla ....

The U.S. Constitution is an entirely different thing ....

The Bible is a matter of individual conscience ....

If you are going to a church, and each week the minister pisses all over the Bible as a worthless piece of $***, you can un-join that congregation and go find another ....

It is a much different thing in my mind when a U.S. president openly pisses all over the U.S. Constitution, which is supposed to be the LAW OF THE LAND here ....

If it is not the LAW OF THE LAND for everyone, starting with the most high and powerful, then it is NOT the law of the land, at all ....

It is then just a worthless piece of paper ....

You advocate for a constitutional democratic something or other in here, rla ....

How is yours going to work if the one we already have CANNOT and DOES NOT work ....

And so ...


I totally agree in principle. Since we are stuck with human beings, not Gods, to apply the principles, we won't
achieve perfection. I think the prefered strategy is to attend to individual misapplications of the principle to
establish who did what, when and how to fix it...work proactivly to improve our systems for enforcing accountability.

An excess of blanket condemnation of the system also tends to indoctrinate the comming generations...I think the need is to build trust and trustworthiness...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 29 2009, 06:36 AM) *
I think the need is to build trust and trustworthiness...

Once destroyed, trust is then impossible to regain, rla ....

That is the way it is ....

And this present system we have is no longer trustworthy ....

So what fool would trust it?

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 29 2009, 06:36 AM) *
I think the prefered strategy is to attend to individual misapplications of the principle to establish who did what, when and how to fix it...work proactivly to improve our systems for enforcing accountability.

As an engineer, rla, I am trained in engineering forensics, which is failure analysis ....

A long time ago, in training, I was taught that more useful knowledge comes from failed experiments than those that appeared to work ....

I would say that advances in engineering come from analysis of failure ....

So it is completely natural for me to be in that mode in here, since it is how I am trained to think ...

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 29 2009, 06:36 AM) *
I think the prefered strategy is to attend to individual misapplications of the principle to establish who did what, when and how to fix it...work proactivly to improve our systems for enforcing accountability.

The operative question, rla, is WHAT IS OUR SYSTEM FOR ENFORCING ACCOUNTABILITY?

Do you even have a clue?

How can you improve something that does not exist?

Livyjr
And if the system for enforcing accountability in New York State is what is broken down in this particular case under discussion in here, rla, how do you down in Arkansas with no standing in New York State do anything about it, other than by drawing attention to it, to generate opprobrium?
Livyjr
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Sep 21 2005, 03:19 PM) *
Excerpts of John Kerry's Senate Statement on Judge Roberts

September 21, 2005

"Judge Roberts' judiciary committee hearings continue an increasingly sterile confirmation process."

"No genuine legal engagement between the questioners and the questioned."

"No real exchange of information and no substantive discussion."

"The confirmation exercise has become little more than an empty shell."


“The Administration's steadfast refusal to disclose documents Judge Roberts worked on while serving as a Deputy Solicitor General in the first Bush Administration has only compounded the problem."

"They claim that disclosure of the documents will violate attorney-client privilege."

"This argument is absurd."

"What client are they trying to protect?"

"The Solicitor General is charged with arguing cases on behalf of all Americans."

"We were Judge Roberts' client when he worked in the Solicitor General's office."

"We have a right to know what he thought about the arguments he made on behalf of the American people."

"When John Roberts served as a Deputy Solicitor General under Ken Starr, he was intimately involved in critical decisions that office made, like whether to intervene in pending cases; what legal arguments to advance in support of their position; whether to push the Supreme Court to review a particular case."

"These decisions helped shape how federal law was applied and how our Constitution was interpreted."

"Yet, we--the Senators who are constitutionally obligated to give consent to this nominee--do not know the positions that Roberts took or the arguments that he made."

“For example, the Solicitor General's office decided to intervene in Bray v. Alexandria Women's Health Clinic."

"The case had been brought against abortion clinic protestors during the height of clinic violence and bombings."

"The plaintiffs argued that the protesters were violating a federal anti-discrimination law by blocking access to clinics and inciting violence."

"The Government intervened and argued that the federal anti-discrimination law did not apply and therefore could not be used to stop the protesters."

"Judge Roberts briefed and argued the case for the Government."

"I believe that the arguments advanced by the Government--and the consequences of those arguments--are troubling."

"But, what we do not know is even more important: what role did Judge Roberts have in making them?"

"Did he consider the consequences?"

"Did he argue for a more narrow or more broad interpretation of the law?"

“At the same time, the Solicitor General's office intervened in a district court case in Wichita, Kansas which raised the same issues that the Supreme Court in Bray was facing."

"The government tried to get the district court to lift an injunction put in place to protect the safety of the clinic workers and patients."

"They argued that the plaintiffs could not win and therefore the injunction was improper."

"The district court denied the Government's request and chastised it for unnecessarily endangering people's lives."

"The question is what role did Judge Roberts have in making that decision?"

"What was the legal reasoning that prompted it?"

"Did he consider the real life dangers that would result from his legal argument?"

"The Administration's refusal to disclose these documents created a serious roadblock in the Senate's ability to evaluate Judge Roberts."

"But Judge Roberts' refusal to genuinely engage in the confirmation hearings created an even bigger one."

"This is not the first time that Supreme Court nominees have refused to engage in a meaningful discourse during judiciary committee hearings."

"Justice Souter refused to answer fundamental questions about his judicial philosophy."

"For that reason, I voted against him, and I am happy to say that I have been pleasantly surprised that my concerns regarding his views on civil rights and privacy did not come to pass."

"Justice Thomas also refused to answer fundamental questions about judicial philosophy."

"As I said at the time, Justice Thomas "found a lot of ways to say 'I do not know' or 'I disagree' or 'I cannot agree' or 'I can't say whether I agree.’"

"I voted against Justice Thomas because I did not know what kind of Justice he would be."

"And, I believe I was correct in making that decision."

“At the end of the day, I find myself much in the same position that I was with Justices Souter and Thomas."

"Notwithstanding his impressive legal resume, I cannot say with confidence that I know who Judge Roberts really is or what kind of Chief Justice he will be."

"In what direction will he take the Supreme Court?"

"Will he protect the civil rights and liberties that we have fought so long and hard for?"

"Will he support Congress' power to enact critical environmental legislation?"

"Will he be an effective check on executive branch actions?"

"Before I vote for a Chief Justice--particularly one who may lead the Court for potentially 30 years or more, I need to know the answers to these fundamental questions."

"Unfortunately, in the case of Judge Roberts, I do not."

"Another area of great concern to me is the area of privacy--an area where Judge Roberts skillfully answered a lot of questions without giving a hint as to his own legal positions."

"For example, while Roberts admitted that the Court has recognized that privacy is protected under the Constitution as part of the liberty in the Due Process Clause, he refused to give any indication of what he thought about the Court's most recent privacy-related decisions."

“The furthest he went was to say he had no quarrel with the decisions in Griswold and Eisenstadt, yet this kind of endorsement is hardly reassuring."

"In his confirmation hearings, Justice Thomas agreed that the Court had found a Constitutional right to privacy."

"Like Judge Roberts, he also stated that he had no quarrel with the Court's holding in Eisenstadt."

"Yet when he got to the Supreme Court, Judge Thomas disavowed the very rights he had said the Constitution protected."

"In fact, more recently, in Lawrence v. Texas, Justice Thomas stated that he could not "find (neither in the Bill of Rights nor any other part of the Constitution a) general right of privacy."

"The bottom line is that I simply do not know how Judge Roberts will approach questions implicating our fundamental right to privacy."

"In addition to what I do not know, what I do know about Judge Roberts is very troubling."

"I know that in the early 80's while he worked in the Department of Justice and White House Counsel's Office, Judge Roberts took an active role in advocating on behalf of Administration policies that would have greatly undermined our civil rights and civil liberties."

“For example, Judge Roberts argued against using the "effects test" to determine whether section 2 of the Voting Rights Act was violated."

"Instead, he believed an "intent" test--requiring proof of a discriminatory motive--should be required, regardless of the fact that many victims of discrimination would be unable to prove a real discriminatory intent and therefore unable to enjoy the protections afforded by the Act."

"In some cases, the effect of Judge Robert's intent test meant that disenfranchised individuals had to prove the motive of long dead officials who crafted the election rules."

"That is a foolish standard when it comes between citizens and their constitutionally protected right to fair representation in our democracy."

"Mr. President, I realize that Judge Roberts took the positions I just described some time ago."

"And, I know he told the judiciary committee that he was simply advocating the views of the Administration at the time."

"Yet, I find it hard to believe that a staffer at Justice or in the White House Counsel's office never wrote a memo that represented his views rather than the Administration's positions."

"Particularly when the theme of those memos is consistent across the board: strict adherence to narrow principles of law despite their real world impact."

"Judge Roberts' more recent positions trouble me as well, particularly his decision to join Judge Randolph's decision in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, the military tribunals case."

"That opinion gave the President unfettered and un-reviewable authority to place captured individuals outside the protections of the Geneva Convention."

"Six retired senior military officials with extensive experience in legal policy, the laws of war, and armed conflict have filed a friend-of-the-court brief in the Supreme Court arguing that Hamdan must be overturned immediately because it directly endangers American soldiers."

“I understand that Judge Roberts felt he could not discuss the case while it was pending before the Supreme Court, but, even when asked about his views of the scope of executive power unrelated to the Hamdan case, Judge Roberts was evasive."

"He did little more than describe the Court's current framework for analyzing assertions of executive power."

"As a result, I do not know whether he believes that the state of war is a blank check for the President or whether he will closely scrutinize the legality of Executive Branch actions at all times."

"Given the fact that his Hamdan decision placed our troops at risk, I am forced to conclude that Judge Roberts' future decisions may further threaten the security of our troops abroad and our citizens at home."

"Now, some may argue that Democrats should vote for Judge Roberts because he is the best nominee we could expect from the Administration."

"I cannot vote to confirm the next Chief Justice of the United States simply because the next nominee to the Court may be even less protective of our fundamental rights and liberties or less dangerous to our national security."

"The questions I have raised, the absence of critical documents, and the lack of clarity surrounding fundamental issues like how he would interpret the Constitution require me to fulfill my Constitutional duties by opposing his nomination to be the next Chief Justice."

What happened here with Sotomayor in this case, rla, actually has its roots in the New York State Constitution, specifically, section 4 of ARTICLE XIV, entitled Conservation, which was added to the New York State Constitution by vote of THE PEOPLE, including myself, back in 1969, when I was in Viet Nam ....

That section of the New York State Constitution reads as follows:

§4. The policy of the state shall be to conserve and protect its natural resources and scenic beauty and encourage the development and improvement of its agricultural lands for the production of food and other agricultural products.

The legislature, in implementing this policy, shall include adequate provision for the abatement of air and water pollution and of excessive and unnecessary noise, the protection of agricultural lands, wetlands and shorelines, and the development and regulation of water resources.

The legislature shall further provide for the acquisition of lands and waters, including improvements thereon and any interest therein, outside the forest preserve counties, and the dedication of properties so acquired or now owned, which because of their natural beauty, wilderness character, or geological, ecological or historical significance, shall be preserved and administered for the use and enjoyment of the people.

Properties so dedicated shall constitute the state nature and historical preserve and they shall not be taken or otherwise disposed of except by law enacted by two successive regular sessions of the legislature. (New. Added by vote of the people November 4, 1969.)


http://www.dos.state.ny.us/info/constitution.htm

By 1969, the water and air in New York State were so foul the state was becoming unlivable and the cost of living in a polluted state was high, so ....

Using the democracy we had back then, a MAJORITY of New York State residents decided to put an end to pollution in OUR state by making this Constitutional amendment, which directed the New York State Legislature, as follows:

The legislature, in implementing this policy, shall include adequate provision for the abatement of air and water pollution and of excessive and unnecessary noise, the protection of agricultural lands, wetlands and shorelines, and the development and regulation of water resources.

end quotes

There is where it all begins, rla .....

With the amendment of the New York State Constitution ....

Which was then subsequently viewed as an encroachment by the TREE HUGGERS and ENVIROS on the "rights" of the POLLUTERS, who believed that they were "grandfathered" so that they could continue poisoning the air and water of this state regardless of any Constitutional amendments or laws to the contrary ...

And they held the political power, despite the New York State Constitution ....

Plante, the engineer who Kathleen Jimino ordered incarcerated in the secure mental facility of Northeast Health, Inc. on 8/22/01, went to court against the state of New York on his own to enforce that Constitutional Amendment, and for that, he won the enmity of those within and without New York State whose activities are threatened by that Constitutional amendment's enforcement ...

By upholding Jimino in this matter, Sotomayor has ensured that that Constitutional amendment is for all purposes dead on arrival ....

By doing that, Sotomayor has upheld the right or polluters to pollute ....

And by upholding Jimino's unlawful actions in the matter, Sotomayor has upheld the right of the "state" to retaliate against any citizen who might think to challenge that ....

Soooo .....

A TWO-TIERED SOCIETY has been created in New York State despite our constitution, rla ....

Those who have absolutely no responsibility to the law whatsoever ....

That is the upper class or tier that Jeffrey Pelletier occupies in our community up here as a PROTECTED PERSON, since he has the money and clout to secure a position in that tier for himself ...

And those who can expect absolutely no protection whatsoever from the law, despite the New York State Constitution ....

That is me and my cohort up here, rla ....

Soooooo ....

Where are you on all of that, then?

On the side of the polluters?

Or are you on the side of the disfranchised citizens of the state?

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Sep 21 2005, 03:19 PM) *
Excerpts of John Kerry's Senate Statement on Judge Roberts

September 21, 2005

"I know that in the early 80's while he worked in the Department of Justice and White House Counsel's Office, Judge Roberts took an active role in advocating on behalf of Administration policies that would have greatly undermined our civil rights and civil liberties."

What a HYPOCRITE John Kerry turned out to be, here ....

And a FLIP-FLOPPER ....

Before Sonia Sotomayor, when it was REPUBLICAN appointee John Roberts undermining our civil rights and civil liberties ....

John Kerry was against him ....

But then, after John Roberts, when it was DEMOCRAT appointee Sonia Sotomayor doing the exact same thing, undermining our civil rights and civil liberties ....

John Kerry was for her ....

Well done, John ....

You are staying true to form to the end ....

FLIP-FLOP FLIP-FLOP FLIP-FLOP ....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Aug 29 2009, 12:03 PM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 29 2009, 06:36 AM) *

I think the prefered strategy is to attend to individual misapplications of the principle to establish who did what, when and how to fix it...work proactivly to improve our systems for enforcing accountability.

The operative question, rla, is WHAT IS OUR SYSTEM FOR ENFORCING ACCOUNTABILITY?

Do you even have a clue?

How can you improve something that does not exist?



UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT

GARCETTI et al. v. CEBALLOS

certiorari to the united states court of appeals for the ninth circuit

No. 04-473. 

Argued October 12, 2005--Reargued March 21, 2006--Decided May 30, 2006

When a citizen enters government service, the citizen by necessity must accept certain limitations on his or her freedom.

See, e.g., Waters v. Churchill, 511 U. S. 661, 671 (1994) (plurality opinion)

("[T]he government as employer indeed has far broader powers than does the government as sovereign").

Government employers, like private employers, need a significant degree of control over their employees' words and actions; without it, there would be little chance for the efficient provision of public services.

Cf. Connick, supra, at 143

("[G]overnment offices could not function if every employment decision became a constitutional matter").

Public employees, moreover, often occupy trusted positions in society.

When they speak out, they can express views that contravene governmental policies or impair the proper performance of governmental functions.


http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getc...mp;invol=04-473
Livyjr
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Aug 29 2009, 05:23 PM) *
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Aug 29 2009, 12:03 PM) *

QUOTE(rla @ Aug 29 2009, 06:36 AM) *

I think the prefered strategy is to attend to individual misapplications of the principle to establish who did what, when and how to fix it...work proactivly to improve our systems for enforcing accountability.

The operative question, rla, is WHAT IS OUR SYSTEM FOR ENFORCING ACCOUNTABILITY?

Do you even have a clue?

How can you improve something that does not exist?



Public employees, moreover, often occupy trusted positions in society.

When they speak out, they can express views that contravene governmental policies or impair the proper performance of governmental functions.


http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getc...mp;invol=04-473


CORRUPTION is a government policy, rla, here in New York State, anyway ....

When a licensed professional engineer such as Paul Plante who held a trusted position in our society up here spoke out about that corruption and then went to court successfully to do something positive about eliminating it, what he did was to contravene that POLICY ....

Thus, it was necessary to incarcerate him in a secure mental facility and have him declared to be dangerous and insane to protect that POLICY ....

And Sonia Sotomayor upheld that incarceration and BRANDING, rla, in accordance with this policy in the United States expressed by the United States Supreme Court right above here ....

So how do you go about fixing that, rla?

Riddle me that if you can ....

And so ...
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Aug 29 2009, 11:20 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 29 2009, 06:36 AM) *
I think the need is to build trust and trustworthiness...

Once destroyed, trust is then impossible to regain, rla ....

That is the way it is ....

And this present system we have is no longer trustworthy ....

So what fool would trust it?

And so ...


Trust and verify...
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Aug 29 2009, 01:01 PM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 29 2009, 06:36 AM) *
I think the prefered strategy is to attend to individual misapplications of the principle to establish who did what, when and how to fix it...work proactivly to improve our systems for enforcing accountability.

As an engineer, rla, I am trained in engineering forensics, which is failure analysis ....

A long time ago, in training, I was taught that more useful knowledge comes from failed experiments than those that appeared to work ....

I would say that advances in engineering come from analysis of failure ....

So it is completely natural for me to be in that mode in here, since it is how I am trained to think ...

And so ...

That certainly is an important half of the process...
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Aug 29 2009, 06:30 PM) *
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Aug 29 2009, 05:23 PM) *
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Aug 29 2009, 12:03 PM) *

QUOTE(rla @ Aug 29 2009, 06:36 AM) *

I think the prefered strategy is to attend to individual misapplications of the principle to establish who did what, when and how to fix it...work proactivly to improve our systems for enforcing accountability.

The operative question, rla, is WHAT IS OUR SYSTEM FOR ENFORCING ACCOUNTABILITY?

Do you even have a clue?

How can you improve something that does not exist?



Public employees, moreover, often occupy trusted positions in society.

When they speak out, they can express views that contravene governmental policies or impair the proper performance of governmental functions.


http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getc...mp;invol=04-473


CORRUPTION is a government policy, rla, here in New York State, anyway ....

When a licensed professional engineer such as Paul Plante who held a trusted position in our society up here spoke out about that corruption and then went to court successfully to do something positive about eliminating it, what he did was to contravene that POLICY ....

Thus, it was necessary to incarcerate him in a secure mental facility and have him declared to be dangerous and insane to protect that POLICY ....

And Sonia Sotomayor upheld that incarceration and BRANDING, rla, in accordance with this policy in the United States expressed by the United States Supreme Court right above here ....

So how do you go about fixing that, rla?

Riddle me that if you can ....

And so ...


One election at a time and one court case at a time...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 29 2009, 07:35 PM) *
Trust and verify...

I trust myself, rla ....

All else I verify ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 29 2009, 07:50 PM) *
One election at a time and one court case at a time...

And what is that a formula for, rla?

More to the point, HOW do you get the court case?

You can't go to court to get an advisory opinion, you know ...

For a case to go to court, something has had to happen ....

Somebody has had to suffer a loss ....

If it was not you, personally, then you have no standing to do a thing about it ....

If your neighbor got hurt in some way, you can't bring a lawsuit on his or her behalf ....

And once the Supreme Court has ruled, rla, that becomes LAW OF THE LAND forever ....

DRED SCOTT remains LAW OF THE LAND, rla ....

Did you know that?

Were you aware of that?

The 14th Amendment was an attempt to repudiate DRED SCOTT, but that is all it was, rla ....

An attempt ....

The same U.S. Supreme Court that rendered DRED SCOTT as LAW OF THE LAND rendered the 14th Amendment as being basically nothing at all ....

Did you know that?

And so ...
Livyjr
This case we are talking about in here was a 14th Amendment case, rla ....

Sonia Sotomayor very publicly pi$$ed and $*** all over the 14th Amendment back in November of 2005 ....

Very publicly, so as to leave no doubts whatsoever that in America, DRED SCOTT is still LAW OF THE LAND ...

Not everybody in America is a citizen with protection of law ....

Have you ever read DRED SCOTT, rla?

Here is an excerpt that is germane to this on-going conversation:

The words "people of the United States" and "citizens" are synonymous terms, and mean the same thing.

They both describe the political body who ... form the sovereignty, and who hold the power and conduct the Government through their representatives....

The question before us is, whether the class of persons described in the plea in abatement [people of Aftican ancestry] compose a portion of this people, and are constituent members of this sovereignty?

We think they are not, and that they are not included, and were not intended to be included, under the word "citizens" in the Constitution, and can therefore claim none of the rights and privileges which that instrument provides for and secures to citizens of the United States.

On the contrary, they were at that time considered as a subordinate and inferior class of beings, who had been subjugated by the dominant race, and, whether emancipated or not, yet remained subject to their authority, and had no rights or privileges but such as those who held the power and the Government might choose to grant them.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4h2933t.html

Now, today, rla, thanks to that same Supreme Court, we have a new or additional class of "subordinate and inferior beings" .....

GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES, rla, who, upon entering government service, by necessity must accept certain limitations on his or her freedom .....

And so ...

How do you see any election or court case changing any of that?

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 29 2009, 06:36 AM) *
An excess of blanket condemnation of the system also tends to indoctrinate the comming generations...

I think the need is to build trust and trustworthiness...

A government that strip a citizen of his or her freedoms is a government that can then strip everyone of their freedom, rla ....

Livyjr
When a die has been cast, rla ....

How do you in your eternal wisdom then uncast that same die?
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Aug 30 2009, 06:35 AM) *
This case we are talking about in here was a 14th Amendment case, rla ....

Sonia Sotomayor very publicly pi$$ed and $*** all over the 14th Amendment back in November of 2005 ....

Very publicly, so as to leave no doubts whatsoever that in America, DRED SCOTT is still LAW OF THE LAND ...

Not everybody in America is a citizen with protection of law ....

Have you ever read DRED SCOTT, rla?

Here is an excerpt that is germane to this on-going conversation:

The words "people of the United States" and "citizens" are synonymous terms, and mean the same thing.

They both describe the political body who ... form the sovereignty, and who hold the power and conduct the Government through their representatives....

The question before us is, whether the class of persons described in the plea in abatement [people of Aftican ancestry] compose a portion of this people, and are constituent members of this sovereignty?

We think they are not, and that they are not included, and were not intended to be included, under the word "citizens" in the Constitution, and can therefore claim none of the rights and privileges which that instrument provides for and secures to citizens of the United States.

On the contrary, they were at that time considered as a subordinate and inferior class of beings, who had been subjugated by the dominant race, and, whether emancipated or not, yet remained subject to their authority, and had no rights or privileges but such as those who held the power and the Government might choose to grant them.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4h2933t.html

Now, today, rla, thanks to that same Supreme Court, we have a new or additional class of "subordinate and inferior beings" .....

GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES, rla, who, upon entering government service, by necessity must accept certain limitations on his or her freedom .....

And so ...

How do you see any election or court case changing any of that?

And so ...


We can deny that we are on this run away train

We can throw up our hands and scream

We can take care to record the wreck for history

We can plan and work together to get control of the train

What options have I left out?
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 29 2009, 06:36 AM) *
An excess of blanket condemnation of the system also tends to indoctrinate the comming generations...

I think the need is to build trust and trustworthiness...

And I ask you once again, rla ....

Build trust and trustworthiness in exactly what?

I think a difference here is that you are coming at this "theory-based", what possibly could be somewhere where Plato's Republic might exist ...

Or Peter Pan's NEVER NEVER LAND ....

While I am coming at it from the WHAT ACTUALLY IS direction, regardless of some flimsy promises made in the past by what were very likely some very shallow and duplicitous persons who occupied positions of power in the "DOMINANT RACE", which really was a CLASS, and remains so today ....

Because to be without rights or freedoms in this country, you no longer have to be black ....

Thanks to democracy in America, that subordinate class without rights or freedoms is now open to everyone in America regardless of race, color or creed ....

And so ...
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Aug 30 2009, 06:35 AM) *
This case we are talking about in here was a 14th Amendment case, rla ....

Sonia Sotomayor very publicly pi$$ed and $*** all over the 14th Amendment back in November of 2005 ....

Very publicly, so as to leave no doubts whatsoever that in America, DRED SCOTT is still LAW OF THE LAND ...

Not everybody in America is a citizen with protection of law ....

Have you ever read DRED SCOTT, rla?

Here is an excerpt that is germane to this on-going conversation:

The words "people of the United States" and "citizens" are synonymous terms, and mean the same thing.

They both describe the political body who ... form the sovereignty, and who hold the power and conduct the Government through their representatives....

The question before us is, whether the class of persons described in the plea in abatement [people of Aftican ancestry] compose a portion of this people, and are constituent members of this sovereignty?

We think they are not, and that they are not included, and were not intended to be included, under the word "citizens" in the Constitution, and can therefore claim none of the rights and privileges which that instrument provides for and secures to citizens of the United States.

On the contrary, they were at that time considered as a subordinate and inferior class of beings, who had been subjugated by the dominant race, and, whether emancipated or not, yet remained subject to their authority, and had no rights or privileges but such as those who held the power and the Government might choose to grant them.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4h2933t.html

Now, today, rla, thanks to that same Supreme Court, we have a new or additional class of "subordinate and inferior beings" .....

GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES, rla, who, upon entering government service, by necessity must accept certain limitations on his or her freedom .....

And so ...

How do you see any election or court case changing any of that?

And so ...


The government is a part of the human social system--not the whole of it...

The relevant principle here is Human Rights and Obligations which superceeds civil rights and obligations...

We must continue to promote the principle that each and every human being is of equal value...
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Aug 30 2009, 07:22 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 29 2009, 06:36 AM) *
An excess of blanket condemnation of the system also tends to indoctrinate the comming generations...

I think the need is to build trust and trustworthiness...

And I ask you once again, rla ....

Build trust and trustworthiness in exactly what?

I think a difference here is that you are coming at this "theory-based", what possibly could be somewhere where Plato's Republic might exist ...

Or Peter Pan's NEVER NEVER LAND ....

While I am coming at it from the WHAT ACTUALLY IS direction, regardless of some flimsy promises made in the past by what were very likely some very shallow and duplicitous persons who occupied positions of power in the "DOMINANT RACE", which really was a CLASS, and remains so today ....

Because to be without rights or freedoms in this country, you no longer have to be black ....

Thanks to democracy in America, that subordinate class without rights or freedoms is now open to everyone in America regardless of race, color or creed ....

And so ...


I've seen plenty of, "poor white trash" treated like, "N______". There is nothing new about that...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 30 2009, 06:23 AM) *
We must continue to promote the principle that each and every human being is of equal value...

We can promote that noble thought until the cows come home, rla .....

But when it is enshrined in LAW OF THE LAND in the USA that there is in fact a dominant class of persons, PROTECTED PERSONS, and there is in fact a subordinate class of persons without rights or freedoms, we are but pi$$ing in the wind, is my thought ....

And when an American president such as Barack Hussein Obama picks a CHAMPION OF DISCRIMINATION AND RETALIATION AND OPPRESSION as his choice for a Supreme Court justice, then not only are we pi$$ing in the wind, but we are being $*** on, as well ....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 30 2009, 06:27 AM) *
I've seen plenty of, "poor white trash" treated like, "N______".

There is nothing new about that...

OF COURSE THERE ISN'T, rla ....

That is the point ...

Despite any and all laws to the contrary ....

Soooo .....

Outside of God and guns, what should we put our trust in?

Barack Obama?

Sonia Sotomayor?

The ACLU?

Help us out here, rla ...

Help us see the light ....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 30 2009, 06:23 AM) *
The government is a part of the human social system--not the whole of it...

The "government" presently is that part of the human social system with the guns, lawyers, thugs, money and judges that oppresses, dominates, and controls the other ninety percent .....

And so ...
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2010 Invision Power Services, Inc.