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Frenchy
QUOTE(Magmak1 @ Apr 22 2005, 12:55 AM)
Stephen, I hope I am not chasing you away…  Don’t bow out. 

Bow in.

Bow in with a counter-argument, or bow out only to undertake some form of action or activity based on what you see, hear, read or believe, no matter what it is that you believe.  That is the essence of democracy. 

We cannot leave the outcome of “things” to the experts; in a fully-functional democracy, we must develop at least enough understanding and expertise of our own to provide guidance to our leaders.
*


You're not chasing me out Magmak1, but there's nothing that I can add to this debate. You will believe what you will believe, and a series of theories fueled by hate will not be countered by any brand of logic. Arguing in circles is futile.
Gabrielle
QUOTE(progressivephoenix @ Apr 22 2005, 10:01 AM)
So disintegrating airplanes or pulverized buildings?  Yes it can happen.  What do you think keeps engineers up at night anyway?
*


smile.gif

I know from observing your pattern on here that you really do stay up nights worrying... And you are an engineer? I didn't get that before. No WONDER you're so good at physics! laugh.gif

OK, so you really believe those buildings pancaked? the concrete disintigrated? the airplane disintegrated?

I'm pretty sure the airplane at the Pentagon could have disintegrated but not sure if a disintegrated airplane could penetrate through all those reinforced walls. I know you've been trying to give me information and I've been too pissed about the physics comments to actually read the information. I will try to do that. I guess I'll have to re-read this stuff...
cardinal
I don't intend to get involved in this discussion again - its all been said over and over but the one thing that always seems to get overlooked in these discusssions is a gentlemen by the name of Zacarias Moussaoui.

Moussaoui pled guilty today to helping al-Quida carry out the Sept. 11 attacks.
graham4anything
QUOTE(cardinal @ Apr 22 2005, 05:00 PM)
I don't intend to get involved in this discussion again - its all been said over and over but the one thing that always seems to get overlooked in these discusssions is a gentlemen by the name of Zacarias Moussaoui. 

Moussaoui pled guilty today to helping al-Quida carry out the Sept. 11 attacks.
*



But, did you notice?
He did not get a trial.
We do not know what happened.
This guy is a fruit loop anyhow.
So once again all the secrets are safe and sound.

They are probably bribing him somehow and giving the money to his parents or someone, or he is doing the time for another crime.

We know nothing about him except what they told us.

Strange why he would plead guilty and maybe still get death sentence. What does he gain from it?

I am now more suspicious than ever.

Alot of people have plead guilty over the years and didn't do diddley. Some people are just nuts.
TheRestofUs
As I've said I don't put anything past BushCo.. The problem is proof, and overcoming the Right Wing and Corporate death grip on absolute power! We can't even trust elections anymore! anger.gif
MrJim
Funny how these threads on 9/11 explode in no time at all. Boom -- they've reached 20 pages.

Due to the number of events that happened that day, there are multiple points at which facts can be disputed. This thread seems to be dedicated to the issue of the collapse of the WTC towers. We could start a thread on about 14 different issues related to 9/11. Maybe we should! Maybe there should be a sub-forum dedicated to this topic, with 10 or 20 or 30 threads.

The two issues that concern me the most in the whole 9/11 story:

1. The insider trading that occurred just before the disasters. Now, this ISN'T speculation -- it really happened, and happened in a big way. Yet -- NO SERIOUS INVESTIGATION!!! A bunch of people knew in advance that something was going to go down. Yet our government seems to YAWN at the whole situation, despite the fact that it could lead to nailing people responsible for the disaster.

2. The supposed cell phone calls from the flight over Pennsylvania. Now that topic alone has had massive threads spring up on this forum. It has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the odds of cell phones connecting, and staying connected at 35,000 and 550 mph is about one in 10,000. Yes, it HAS BEEN PROVEN -- with scientific tests being run on this very issue. So where did those calls come from? The original thread on this seemed to deteriorate into the anti-conspiracy side eventually saying "well, they weren't cell phone calls, they were airphone calls". Okay -- maybe true. I don't know. I don't have much time to look into it. But I do know they couldn't have been cell phone calls.

But I do know that these are two points that have a lot more potential for immediate proof or disproof. At least for me -- I'm not a structural engineer, and I don't know the structural layout of the WTC towers.
Gabrielle
QUOTE(cardinal @ Apr 22 2005, 04:00 PM)
I don't intend to get involved in this discussion again - its all been said over and over but the one thing that always seems to get overlooked in these discusssions is a gentlemen by the name of Zacarias Moussaoui. 

Moussaoui pled guilty today to helping al-Quida carry out the Sept. 11 attacks.
*


Nice of you to stop by, cardinal. He pled guilty but despite pleading guilty has "always maintained his innocence" according to numerous talking heads on the news for the past few days. Apparently, according to MSM, he said he wanted to kill Americans but was not involved in 9/11, knew nothing about 9/11. In addition, you've got to wonder what made him decide to "plead" guilty after all these years?
cardinal
QUOTE(Gabrielle @ Apr 22 2005, 05:48 PM)
Nice of you to stop by, cardinal.  He pled guilty but despite pleading guilty has "always maintained his innocence" according to numerous talking heads on the news for the past few days.  Apparently, according to MSM, he said he wanted to kill Americans but was not involved in 9/11, knew nothing about 9/11.  In addition, you've got to wonder what made him decide to "plead" guilty after all these years?
*
I guess this is what it all boils down to for me and the rest flows from there. I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm just telling you what I'm basing my decision on fair enough?

The primary question is who brought down the WTC, crashed Flight 93 and hit the Pentagon. Was it al-Queda or was it our government? I'm convinced it was al-Queda. Until someone can convince me that Bin Laden didn't do what he said he did then I can't entertain other theories.

The reason Moussaui is important is because of the flight training schools. He wanted to fly a plane but didn't want to learn how to land one. (I trust Coleen Rowley, the FBI agent in Mpls.) Do I think Moussaui was the 20th hijackers, probably not, because he said he was being trained for a later mission - to crash a 747 into the White House.

Spain is now in the process of trying additional member of al-Queda who had connections to the 9/11 hijackings.

I think its far more likely that this was incompetence and arrogance on Bush's part. Whenever I see that picture of him in the classroom with those kids, I ask myself, is this the face of someone who knew about 9/11. And the answer is always. no.
MrJim
QUOTE
The primary question is who brought down the WTC, crashed Flight 93 and hit the Pentagon. Was it al-Queda or was it our government? I'm convinced it was al-Queda. Until someone can convince me that Bin Laden didn't do what he said he did then I can't entertain other theories.


What about the idea that the Govt. knew something was coming down, and just stayed out of the way?
cardinal
QUOTE(MrJim @ Apr 22 2005, 07:35 PM)
What about the idea that the Govt. knew something was coming down, and just stayed out of the way?
*

that's when I always think of that face in the school and say nope, incompetence - sorry.
graham4anything
QUOTE(cardinal @ Apr 22 2005, 08:30 PM)
I guess this is what it all boils down to for me and the rest flows from there.  I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm just telling you what I'm basing my decision on fair enough?

The primary question is who brought down the WTC, crashed Flight 93 and hit the Pentagon.  Was it al-Queda or was it our government?  I'm convinced it was al-Queda.  Until someone can convince me that Bin Laden didn't do what he said he did then I can't entertain other theories.

The reason Moussaui is important is because of the flight training schools.  He wanted to fly a plane but didn't want to learn how to land one.  (I trust Coleen Rowley, the FBI agent in Mpls.)  Do I think Moussaui was the 20th hijackers, probably not, because he said he was being trained for a later mission - to crash a 747 into the White House. 

Spain is now in the process of trying additional member of al-Queda who had connections to the 9/11 hijackings.

I think its far more likely that this was incompetence and arrogance on Bush's part.  Whenever I see that picture of him in the classroom with those kids, I ask myself, is this the face of someone who knew about 9/11.  And the answer is always. no.
*



Bush 43 himself didn't have to be in on it. He is not needed. It was his alibi, his set up, but in theory, he didnot need to know. He is not that important.
Like the John Sayles movie Silver something or other.

But Bush41 and the neo-con gang of goons all knew. This way Bush could honestly shrug his shoulders as the moron always does.

BinLaden is a Bush41 creation. He is paid by Bush41.(and when you get right down to it, looks stunningly like bush41).(with a hat and beard)

Wag the dog
wliberty
QUOTE(Gabrielle @ Apr 22 2005, 03:36 PM)
This is a good point.  I have had some difficulty remaining calm when discussing this issue.  It's a naturally emotionally charged issue to begin with.  It makes me anxious to even think about it.  But I feel compelled to speak out about what I believe really went down on 9/11.  I guess, at times, when someone tells me my physics is rusty (it should be, since I haven't had physics in 10+ years and sucked at it even back then) I get ticked off.  It's the overwhelming mountain of evidence pointing to complicity that has convinced me.  For a while when I heard of BLEVEs I was starting to believe maybe it did happen the way BushCo says it did.  But all the coverups, stock deals, warnings not to fly pre 9/11, emergency drills taking the emergency responders away at just the "right" (or wrong) time, etc. - all these things point toward complicity.  And NOTHING - not one single thing I've read points to the idea that BushCo tried to protect us.

When I get anxious my reasoning skills may get murky.  I'm an INFJ - not an INTJ.  But that doesn't make me less intelligent and it doesn't make my contributions any less worthy of consideration - even though I feel inferior for this reason (being an F rather than a T) at times. 

I have a very strong intuition.  Sometimes it's wrong.  But that is rare.  And on this issue my intuition is telling me over and over and over and over again that the fix was in on 9/11 and 3,000 innocent men, women and children were slaughtered when elements within our government decided it would be a great "opportunity" for such a tragedy to occur.  We can fight tit for tat this and that point and in the end I'm more than likely still going to insist that this 9/11 official theory stinks to high heaven.

Here's my motive.  I'll just go ahead and put my motive out on the table for all to see.  I don't want to have to turn on the television and see that a nuclear bomb has just gone off in NYC, Washington DC, or find out there's been a chemical or biological attack in America.  And I don't believe the people who did 9/11 have been caught.  I believe they're in charge of all the money and all the military power in the world.  And it scares me a little bit to even speak out in this way.  Sometimes it scares me a lot. 

I do it because I don't want to see more Americans die.  And that's not even touching all the heinous national policies we've developed as a result of what happened on 9/11.  And perhaps the most horrifying site for me was that of the doctors standing outside of a NYC hospital - just standing there.  I knew when I saw them standing outside that they were doing nothing because everyone inside the towers was dead.  Maybe there's something wrong with me that I don't just forget 9/11 and move on, think about something else, start focusing on the minutiae of the political process. 

But we're treating someone dying of a massive internal hemorrhage with a bandaid on an unaffected extremity.  It's almost a theater of the absurd the way we have handled 9/11 as a nation.  We first have to know what the problem really is!  (rigged elections, 9/11 complicity, etc.) We have to do an accurate, thorough assessment of the problem, the damage, etc.  And we never ONCE did that as a nation.  Instead we just started attacking people, going trillions of dollars into debt, flailing our military might in random acts of revengeful rage.  All based on a LIE.  All based on a misdiagnosis. 

This patient, this country, is going down.  And if we don't figure out what the hell is really wrong - and soon - and then DO something about the REAL problem, well, then we're all going down together, I guess.

And I'm not ready to watch this great country get flushed down the $hitter by a bunch greedy psychopaths!
*

smile.gif Thanks for the moving honest post. Yes, what ever the truth is we need to know it. The future of everyone and everything we love may depend on it. We're all in this together. grphug.gif
Gabrielle
QUOTE(MrJim @ Apr 22 2005, 07:35 PM)
What about the idea that the Govt. knew something was coming down, and just stayed out of the way?
*


That's what I believe. They stayed out of the way on purpose. They allowed it to happen. In their minds they were creating an "opportunity."
Gabrielle
QUOTE(wliberty @ Apr 22 2005, 08:22 PM)
smile.gif Thanks for the moving honest post. Yes, what ever the truth is we need to know it. The future of everyone and everything we love may depend on it. We're all in this together. grphug.gif
*


Thanks w. smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif
wliberty
QUOTE(Gabrielle @ Apr 22 2005, 09:41 PM)
Thanks w.  smile.gif  smile.gif  smile.gif
*

You're welcome. biggrin.gif
Silver
QUOTE(Gabrielle @ Apr 22 2005, 06:28 PM)
That's what I believe.  They stayed out of the way on purpose.  They allowed it to happen.  In their minds they were creating an "opportunity."
*


This is what I believe to a certain extent. I believe the Bush admin used Al Qaidas attack and "helped" things along a bit.
MrJim
QUOTE
That's what I believe. They stayed out of the way on purpose. They allowed it to happen. In their minds they were creating an "opportunity."


This would explain the insider trading that went on just before the attack. Several people in high up places knew it was coming down. This also explains why there has been no investigation -- it would uncover a lot of "non-terrorists" in the know about what was going to happen.

As far as my other theory -- the cell phone calls that couldn't have happened -- well, I think that plane was shot down.

Of course, a good lawyer would point out a flaw in this argument -- if they "let it come down" then why didn't they just let that jet go ahead and crash somewhere, without shooting it down? I'm not sure... Food for thought...
Silver
QUOTE(MrJim @ Apr 22 2005, 11:11 PM)
This would explain the insider trading that went on just before the attack.  Several people in high up places knew it was coming down.  This also explains why there has been no investigation -- it would uncover a lot of "non-terrorists" in the know about what was going to happen.

As far as my other theory -- the cell phone calls that couldn't have happened -- well, I think that plane was shot down. 

Of course, a good lawyer would point out a flaw in this argument -- if they "let it come down" then why didn't they just let that jet go ahead and crash somewhere, without shooting it down?  I'm not sure...  Food for thought...
*


I think this is also why they will not allow Moussoui and the other "terrorist" (I forget his name) to plead guilty to 911. Because if there is a trial then evidence like this will be dragged out into the public spotlight. So they keep stonewalling a trial by saying that they are not sane enough to stand trial. This would also explain why Bush has failed to capture Bin Laden. I think the Bushies would be crapping purple twinkies if the details of the trial got dragged out into the public spotlight. I truly would be amazed if any of the "terrorists" ever stands trial.
Telcom-IT Needs Job
QUOTE(Silver @ Apr 23 2005, 01:25 AM)
I think this is also why they will not allow Moussoui and the other "terrorist" (I forget his name) to plead guilty to 911. Because if there is a trial then evidence like this will be dragged out into the public spotlight. So they keep stonewalling a trial by saying that they are not sane enough to stand trial. This would also explain why Bush has failed to capture Bin Laden. I think the Bushies would be crapping purple twinkies if the details of the trial got dragged out into the public spotlight. I truly would be amazed if any of the "terrorists" ever stands trial.
*

Osama has made no appearance since the election, when he looked strong, healthy and secure, and appeared to be filmed from an expensive studio.

At minimum, one can conclude that he approves of who became president. This is especially understandable, since prior to the election, Bush announced that finding Osama was no longer important to him.
Magmak1
A quick response to some of the issues raised above:

In the discussion about the steel beams flying out of the upper reaches of the Twin Towers, it is noted that “ordinary demolitions” are rigged so that debris falls down. But if you had checked the link provided (911research), you’d have noted that four separate theories were advanced for the possible use of demolitions, one of which was all but rejected, but one of which suggested that, if a pre-rigged demolition was used, it was anything but ordinary because it had to take into consideration the expected impact of the plane, thus the explosions high up in the building. Did you read these? Or shall we simply dismiss this entire line of discussion with an imperious wave of the hand?

It was noted that there are pictures of people jumping out of the building to escape the fires. I can’t argue that there weren’t fires in the building; the question is if the fires were hot enough for long enough to melt the steel sufficiently to compromise its structural integrity. But, having discussed this kind of thing with firefighters, I have to note that people don’t jump out of buildings because of the fire, they jump because of the toxicity of the smoke. Breathing is the elemental need for life.

The need to get gruesome… My apologies if the word-based images offend. My intent wasn’t to get gruesome. My intent was to introduce forensic-based scientific examination. The statement I inferred about bodies being vaporized came from the medical examiners who had to identify the bodies, many of which never were identified because there was literally no tissue from which to extract DNA. Bone, muscle, ligament and flesh do not disappear as a result of gravity-induced trauma or crush injuries. Even in intense and prolonged fire, some bone fragments remain.

There were a lot of fires in WTC7. Again, show me the pictures. The pictures I have seen show small, controllable fires. The videos I have seen show no conflagration or explosion prior to collapse. The testimony by firefighters indicated that any fires in WTC7 were small and controllable. There were no firefighters in the building when it collapsed, and there hadn’t been for hours. By the way, why was a separate EOC (apart from the bunker in WTC7) set up well in advance?

With regard to Silverstein’s “pull it” quote, the counter-theory is not that firefighters or others were commanded to enter the building on 9/11 and place explosives. The counter-theory was that the explosives had already been placed. It is known that, with regard to the Twin Towers, multiple evacuation drills and programmed power outages were conducted, thus emptying the building of workers, in the days and weeks before 9/11.

The fact that the WTC7 housed SEC records etc has been summarily dismissed as “tin foil hat” thinking. In light of Ruppert’s linkage of insider stock trading of airline and WTC-housed company stocks in advance of the event to a former CIA official, I don’t think we can be quite so cavalier in our rejection of this line of inquiry.

“The majority of people simply do not find these conspiracy theories credible.” More than a few polls indicate quite the opposite.

The long list of seemingly-interrelated issues that I called “it all” has been summarily dismissed with a “tin foil hat” graphic and the suggestion that the White House SitRoom Commander was on a normal holiday with the President in Florida. Aside from not addressing any of the other items in that incomplete list of “it all”, there is significant indication that Cheney was in command of a “war room” scenario, running simulations and more, and was in touch with other agencies. The Mineta testimony, among other indicators, raises this question. Why was it that Cheney gave the order to shoot down the commercial aircraft if necessary and not Bush, who was with the White House Sit Room commander and travels with the most advanced communications technology we have? What happened to the military chain of command that day? Cheney has no place in the military chain of command unless the President is incapable of performing his duties? Why was Bush incapable?

The suggestion that people who advance “conspiracy theories” are conspirators in doing so is specious. Those people like Ruppert, Walter, Griffin and many others including the whistle-blowers are not engaged in a criminal enterprise; whoever accounted for the deaths of 4,000 that day were engaged in a criminal enterprise for which there has been little investigation, less proof, and about which there is significant controversy and has been extensive cover-up.

“Why Haven’t Government Officials Come Forth?” Would this question suggest that we ignore military officials like Lt. Col. Kwiatowski and Col. DeGranPre, or Robert Wright, Mike German and Sibel Edwards of the FBI, or Homeland Security’s Mary Schneider, or the CIA’s Michael Springman, Michael Scheuer, and David MacMichael, or US Naval intelligence officer Delbert “Mike” Vreeland, or Mary Schiavo (former transportation safety guru), or Michael Meacher (UK), or Andreas von Buelow (Germany)?

There’s a book due out soon: http://www.ecampus.com/bk_detail.asp?isbn=...1X&referrer=Biz

For more names of top governmental officials who've asked for further investigation, go to http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0904/091304c1.htm .


The 9/11 investigations being conducted outside of normal governmental channels are being conducted because normal governmental investigations have been blocked, thwarted, abused, or gagged. Whether we’re talking about the FBI, the CIA, the NTSB, the FAA, or the Kean Commission, the Federal Government as a whole has not played ball with the American people. Furthermore, it is obvious that key players in the government itself are engaged in a massive disinformation campaign to muddy the waters with cockamamie theories or disputable explanations (the purge of staffers at Popular Mechanics and the publication of a conspiracy theory debunking article by a former CIA disinformation specialist related to the new Homeland Security chief is one proof of this).

This underlines Tazvil's post that we need to pay attention to semantics and the language that is used in these discussions. US disinformation campaigns, psyops, and memetic engineering have been used on the American people (since when are the American people an enemy of its government?!).

It was suggested that the 9/11 “conspiracy theorists” are engaged in these actions because of their “hate”. I submit that they and others are active in searching for some semblance of coherence and truth because of their love… their love of their country, their proper regard for right and wrong, the love of those who lost their lives (and to honor them) (Mariani, and the Four Widows), etc. If there is anything that they hate, it’s the fact that their nation and its governance has seemingly been hijacked by a group intent on doing grave harm to it while getting rich off of it.
Gabrielle
QUOTE(Magmak1 @ Apr 23 2005, 04:44 PM)
The need to get gruesome…  My apologies if the word-based images offend.  My intent wasn’t to get gruesome.  My intent was to introduce forensic-based scientific examination.  The statement I inferred about bodies being vaporized came from the medical examiners who had to identify the bodies, many of which never were identified because there was literally no tissue from which to extract DNA.  Bone, muscle, ligament and flesh do not disappear as a result of gravity-induced trauma or crush injuries.  Even in intense and prolonged fire, some bone fragments remain.

*


Two questions:
1) What kind of force could cause people to "vaporize?" Fire? Explosions?
2) How were they able to identify Mohammed Atta's passport at the base of the WTCs if the people inside were "vaporized?" How does paper survive when bone doesn't?
Gabrielle
Muslim-Jewish-Christian alliance for 9/11 truth -

MUJCA outreach program seeks to educate priests, rabbis, ministers, and imams about 9/11 truth movement.

QUOTE
Our religious outreach program consists of putting the right people in contact with each other.  (This is the meaning of "NET" in MUJCA-NET.)  We put committed, educated 9/11 truth activists in contact with religious leaders, scholars, and laypeople who are willing to listen.


QUOTE
It is also a great human interest story.  MUJCA-NET offers an extraordinary portrait of hope and faith in this very dark time.  Getting Muslims, Jews and Christians to unite on anything except blowing each other up is getting harder and harder these days.  Getting them to unite and courageoulsy stand together demanding 9/11 truth is both astonishing and inspiring.  After all, whether you think Osama Bin Laden or Osama Bin Cheney did it, the whole point of the 9/11 atrocity was to set Muslims, Jews and Christians at each others' throats.
graham4anything
In a survey 65 percent of NY'ers in that survey had said 9-11 did not happen the way they were told.

NY is where the action happened.

NY is where the people died. And they don't believe it.

Jews and Christians should be friends just like Jews and Blacks should be close.
Jews and Muslims and blacks should be close (after all they are the 3 biggest groups persecuted time and again.And blamed for everything.)

I am really starting to think there is no terrorists in the world anymore.
It is all one governments molls fighting as terrorists against another.
(Even if you believe there is an independent Osama, he is a politician too...if he actually exists, he would like nothing more than be leader of Saudia Arabia.)

Funny thing is, maybe someday he will be.

M.Begin was a terrorist in his early days. Arafat was. and so many others. Today's terrorist is tommorrows freedom fighter is next weeks leader of that area.
progressivephoenix
This is what I beleive also. And it is well documented in the 911 hearings. Richard Clarke and the head of the Counterterrorism Center both informed Bush officials that something big was going to occur, that required preventive measures and investigation and their was not response. I believe it was incompetence, but I would not argue with anyone who thought it was malice.


QUOTE(MrJim @ Apr 22 2005, 04:35 PM)
What about the idea that the Govt. knew something was coming down, and just stayed out of the way?
*
Silver
QUOTE(progressivephoenix @ Apr 25 2005, 07:08 PM)
This is what I beleive also.  And it is well documented in the 911 hearings.  Richard Clarke and the head of the Counterterrorism Center both informed Bush officials that something big was going to occur, that required preventive measures and investigation and their was not response.  I believe it was incompetence, but I would not argue with anyone who thought it was malice.
*


This is what they want you to believe. They would much rather have you think they're stupid than guilty of treason.

Personally I think it was a mix. I think it was a plot originally developed by Al Qaeda but the Bush admin took over and implemented their own effects.
graham4anything
Al Qaeda spelled backwards is Bush41
TheRestofUs
QUOTE(graham4anything @ Apr 25 2005, 07:31 PM)
Al Qaeda spelled backwards is Bush41
*

confused.gif suspect.gif ship.gif roflmbo.gif
graham4anything
QUOTE(TheRestofUs @ Apr 25 2005, 10:40 PM)
confused.gif  suspect.gif  ship.gif  roflmbo.gif
*



I may be paranoid, but why then are they following me?
The truth is out there in the stars and it is spelled bush41

One man---two kids 7/6/46 and 8/19/46 could it be possible???
Gabrielle
QUOTE(progressivephoenix @ Apr 25 2005, 09:08 PM)
This is what I beleive also.  And it is well documented in the 911 hearings.  Richard Clarke and the head of the Counterterrorism Center both informed Bush officials that something big was going to occur, that required preventive measures and investigation and their was not response.  I believe it was incompetence, but I would not argue with anyone who thought it was malice.
*


Progressivephoenix,
I'm shocked to read this from you. Wow.

I finally received the Journal of Psychohistory and am currently typing the Bush,Cheney, Rumsfeld and 9/11: A Scandal Beyond What Has been Seen Before piece onto the computer to post on here. So far it is an excellent piece. Basically he (Matt Everett) says that after an event like 9/11 people need an enemy to blame for what happened. The neocons were seeking an outside enemy. First Afghanistan, then Iraq, always al-Qaeda. They've also tried to foist our need for an enemy onto Iran, Syria, etc. However, Everett maintains that what has happened is the American people have failed to latch on to another "external enemy." Instead we have started pointing the finger at our government. He's going to show "some of the psychohisorical evidence that shows why we could be heading fo ra major scandal over the events of 9/11." But it's 38 pages so it's going to take me a while to type it in. My hands go numb/fingers get cold when typing.

Here's the first bit of it:

QUOTE
Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and 9/11: A Scandal Beyond What Has Been Seen Before
By Matt Everett
The Journal of Psychohistory 32(3) Winter 2005

If what I say is right, the whole U.S. government should end up behind bars. – Andreas von Bulow, former German government minister, author of Die CIA und der 11. September.

At the beginning of the invasion of Iraq in March 2003, U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld promised: “What will follow will not be a repeat of any other conflict.  It will be of a force and scope and scale that has been beyond what has been seen before.”  The invasion that ensued was, like all wars, destructive and resulted in the loss of thousands of lives.  Yet Baghdad fell in a mere three weeks and just six weeks after the invasion commenced, President Bush announced: “Major combat operations in Iraq have ended.”  Despite the death and destruction, it was hardly a war of ‘force,’ ‘scope’ and ‘scale’ beyond what had been seen before.

However, before it began, there were indications that some people wanted a far more destructive war than that which ensued.  For example, ridiculous at it may now sound, it was suggested that Britain and America might use nuclear weapons against Iraq.  As The Guardian reported at the time:

QUOTE
From last year’s US defense review and the testimony of the Defense Secretary, Geoffrey Hoon, to the defense select committee last March it was clear that a major change in the US and UK nuclear policy was taking place.

For the first time Britain and America were contemplating using nuclear weapons against an enemy using only chemical or biological weapons.

Referring to “states of concern,” and Saddam Hussein in particular, Mr. Hoon told the committee: “They can be absolutely confident that in the right conditions we would be willing to use our nuclear weapons.” (1)


A month before the invasion, Hoon repeated his warning: Saddam can be absolutely confident that in the right conditions we would be wiling to use nuclear weapons.” (2)  As investigative journalist John Pilger points out: “No British minister has ever made such an outright threat.” (3)

Thankfully, the invasion passed without our resorting to nuclear weapons.  But it seemed the desire for a bigger conflict remained, with attempts beginning almost immediately to find a new, more formidable enemy.  In particular, Iran and Syria seemed next on the list for ‘liberation.’  At a press conference in July 2003, President Bush issued a stern warning to both countries, accusing them of harboring terrorists.  “This behavior is completely unacceptable,” he said, “and states that continue to harbor terrorists will be held completely accountable.” (4) Three months later, U.S. Under Secretary of State for Arms Control John Bolton told journalists: “There is awareness of the threat posed by Iran and consensus that threat has to be eliminated.” (5) Yet these warnings failed to capture much public interest.

Instead, there was a growing interest around the investigation into the attacks of September 11, 2001.  Previously, the press had largely ignored the work of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, better known as the “9-11 Commission.”  When it held its second public hearings in May 2003 on the key issue of air defense, the New York Times and Lost Angeles Times failed to write any articles about it. (6)  Suddenly though, in a March 2003 the Commission became the center of attention when former White House security expert Richard Clarke publicly testified before it and criticized the Bush administration for failing to address terrorism when it first came into office.  Since then, the 9/11 Commission remained a major news story and the book of its final report became an instant bestseller.  However, the mass media were still overlooking the fact that increasing numbers of people were seriously questioning the entire official account of 9/11. More and more books had been released around the world giving evidence of possible U.S. government complicity in the attacks. Polls suggested that millions of people were suspicious: A Zogby poll in late August 2004 found 49 per cent of New York City residents and 41 per cent of New York citizens overall agreed that “some leaders in the U.S. government knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to take action.” (7) A survey three months earlier found 63 per cent of Canadians believed the U.S. government had “prior knowledge of the plans for the events of September 11th, and failed to take appropriate action to stop them.” (8) A July 2003 poll had found almost a fifth of Germans believed the U.S. government, or elements within it, were responsible for organizing the attacks. (9)

With attempts at identifying a new ‘external enemy’ so far failing, I believe it is possible that, instead, this growing suspicion around 9/11 will develop into an unprecedented public scandal.  But what are these suspicions about?  Are they simply the result of rumor and ‘urban legend,’ or could some of the disturbing allegations now being made be found true in future?  In this article, I will examine some of the arguments put forward by 9/11 skeptics, along with supporting evidence. J Then I will examine some of the psychohistorical evidence that shows why we could be heading for a major scandal over the events of 9/11. Until the controversy around 9/11 is brought into the open and investigated properly, it is up to individuals to draw their own conclusions.  However, in my opinion, the volume of evidence now gathered is enough to suggest a massive scandal is a real possibility.  The implications of this would be extraordinary.  As one of the most prominent 9/11 skeptics, former German government minister Andreas von Bulow says: “If what I say is right, the whole US government should end up behind bars.” (10)


Do you all want me to go through the pages and pages of his 9/11 evidence (which seems laid out well) or just skip to the psychohisorical reasons for a 9/11 scandal part nearer the end? I think I'll skip to this part and then go back if anyone wants that. Then put it all together in a coherent whole.
Magmak1
Wow, Gabrielle...

Want to borrow my voice recognition software?

Can you borrow a flat-plate photo scanner?
MrJim
QUOTE
) How were they able to identify Mohammed Atta's passport at the base of the WTCs if the people inside were "vaporized?" How does paper survive when bone doesn't?


It was a magic passport! Didn't you know that?
MrJim
QUOTE
One man---two kids 7/6/46 and 8/19/46 could it be possible???


Whut?
Gabrielle
QUOTE(Magmak1 @ Apr 25 2005, 11:07 PM)
Wow, Gabrielle... 

Want to borrow my voice recognition software? 

Can you borrow a flat-plate photo scanner?
*


I have a flat plate photo scanner. Can that get it into a form that can be submitted on here? That would save me SO much time!

I'll hook up the scanner and see if I can get it to work. Great idea, Magmak. smile.gif
progressivephoenix
Stupidity or malice, what is the difference really? They either "knew or should have known." That's why there is a crime called "criminal negligence."
QUOTE(Silver @ Apr 25 2005, 06:26 PM)
This is what they want you to believe. They would much rather have you think they're stupid than guilty of treason.

Personally I think it was a mix. I think it was a plot originally developed by Al Qaeda but the Bush admin took over and implemented their own effects.
*
progressivephoenix
Why? I never disputed the fact that Rumsfelt, Cheney, Ashcroft and rice could have colluded to supress or ignore intelligence. It would not be that hard to do, and their subordinates are already on record saying that they engaged in inexplicable behavior of ignoring intelligence info. It would easy for them to do this and get away with it.

I only disputed the elaborate scenarios involving thousands of people in dozens of locations, with very little evidence for it other people's poor understanding of engineering .
QUOTE(Gabrielle @ Apr 25 2005, 07:04 PM)
Progressivephoenix,
I'm shocked to read this from you.  Wow. 
graham4anything
[quote=Gabrielle,Apr 25 2005, 11:04 PM]
Progressivephoenix,
I'm shocked to read this from you. Wow.

I finally received the Journal of Psychohistory and am currently typing the Bush,Cheney, Rumsfeld and 9/11: A Scandal Beyond What Has been Seen Before piece onto the computer to post on here. So far it is an excellent piece. Basically he (Matt Everett) says that after an event like 9/11 people need an enemy to blame for what happened. The neocons were seeking an outside enemy. First Afghanistan, then Iraq, always al-Qaeda. They've also tried to foist our need for an enemy onto Iran, Syria, etc. However, Everett maintains that what has happened is the American people have failed to latch on to another "external enemy." Instead we have started pointing the finger at our government. He's going to show "some of the psychohisorical evidence that shows why we could be heading fo ra major scandal over the events of 9/11." But it's 38 pages so it's going to take me a while to type it in. My hands go numb/fingers get cold when typing.

Here's the first bit of it:
A month before the invasion, Hoon repeated his warning: Saddam can be absolutely confident that in the right conditions we would be wiling to use nuclear weapons.” (2)  As investigative journalist John Pilger points out: “No British minister has ever made such an outright threat.” (3)

Thankfully, the invasion passed without our resorting to nuclear weapons.  But it seemed the desire for a bigger conflict remained, with attempts beginning almost immediately to find a new, more formidable enemy.  In particular, Iran and Syria seemed next on the list for ‘liberation.’  At a press conference in July 2003, President Bush issued a stern warning to both countries, accusing them of harboring terrorists.  “This behavior is completely unacceptable,” he said, “and states that continue to harbor terrorists will be held completely accountable.” (4) Three months later, U.S. Under Secretary of State for Arms Control John Bolton told journalists: “There is awareness of the threat posed by Iran and consensus that threat has to be eliminated.” (5) Yet these warnings failed to capture much public interest.

Instead, there was a growing interest around the investigation into the attacks of September 11, 2001.  Previously, the press had largely ignored the work of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, better known as the “9-11 Commission.”  When it held its second public hearings in May 2003 on the key issue of air defense, the New York Times and Lost Angeles Times failed to write any articles about it. (6)  Suddenly though, in a March 2003 the Commission became the center of attention when former White House security expert Richard Clarke publicly testified before it and criticized the Bush administration for failing to address terrorism when it first came into office.  Since then, the 9/11 Commission remained a major news story and the book of its final report became an instant bestseller.  However, the mass media were still overlooking the fact that increasing numbers of people were seriously questioning the entire official account of 9/11. More and more books had been released around the world giving evidence of possible U.S. government complicity in the attacks. Polls suggested that millions of people were suspicious: A Zogby poll in late August 2004 found 49 per cent of New York City residents and 41 per cent of New York citizens overall agreed that “some leaders in the U.S. government knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to take action.” (7) A survey three months earlier found 63 per cent of Canadians believed the U.S. government had “prior knowledge of the plans for the events of September 11th, and failed to take appropriate action to stop them.” (8) A July 2003 poll had found almost a fifth of Germans believed the U.S. government, or elements within it, were responsible for organizing the attacks. (9)

With attempts at identifying a new ‘external enemy’ so far failing, I believe it is possible that, instead, this growing suspicion around 9/11 will develop into an unprecedented public scandal.  But what are these suspicions about?  Are they simply the result of rumor and ‘urban legend,’ or could some of the disturbing allegations now being made be found true in future?  In this article, I will examine some of the arguments put forward by 9/11 skeptics, along with supporting evidence. J Then I will examine some of the psychohistorical evidence that shows why we could be heading for a major scandal over the events of 9/11. Until the controversy around 9/11 is brought into the open and investigated properly, it is up to individuals to draw their own conclusions.  However, in my opinion, the volume of evidence now gathered is enough to suggest a massive scandal is a real possibility.  The implications of this would be extraordinary.  As one of the most prominent 9/11 skeptics, former German government minister Andreas von Bulow says: “If what I say is right, the whole US government should end up behind bars.” (10)[/quote]

Do you all want me to go through the pages and pages of his 9/11 evidence (which seems laid out well) or just skip to the psychohisorical reasons for a 9/11 scandal part nearer the end? I think I'll skip to this part and then go back if anyone wants that. Then put it all together in a coherent whole.
*

[/quote]


Nothing surprising here. Please print the entire thing out and post it...maybe some of the skeptics will see what they are too blind to see.
9-11 was the biggest sham of all time.
It is all a lie. Start with bin-laden on down, Bush lied to everyone, or, his people lied to everyone including him. Whether he actually knows or not doesn't really matter. The ones pulling his string know it is all a sham.

The sooner it all comes out the better.
graham4anything
I may be paranoid, but why then are they following me?
The truth is out there in the stars and it is spelled bush41

One man---two kids 7/6/46 and 8/19/46 could it be possible???

QUOTE(MrJim @ Apr 26 2005, 12:28 AM)
Whut?
*



YUP ok.gif idea.gif
tazvil04
[quote=graham4anything,Apr 26 2005, 07:09 AM]
Do you all want me to go through the pages and pages of his 9/11 evidence (which seems laid out well) or just skip to the psychohisorical reasons for a 9/11 scandal part nearer the end? I think I'll skip to this part and then go back if anyone wants that. Then put it all together in a coherent whole.
*

[/quote]
Nothing surprising here. Please print the entire thing out and post it...maybe some of the skeptics will see what they are too blind to see.
9-11 was the biggest sham of all time.
It is all a lie. Start with bin-laden on down, Bush lied to everyone, or, his people lied to everyone including him. Whether he actually knows or not doesn't really matter. The ones pulling his string know it is all a sham.

The sooner it all comes out the better.
*

[/quote]

Incredible...
jeffmoskin
This is a sensational thread. Thanks to all for your posts.

The only thing I can contribute (as a pilot of 40 years and also an engineer) is that for a pilot to fly a fast moving 757 into a building (assuming you were nuts enough to do it) is a feat requiring exceptional skill.

None of the "19" could have done it. Maybe a military fighter pilot could do it.


That is why I am beginning to believe Ruppert's "back-door" theory of controlling commercial airliners from the ground.


AN AUTOPILOT COULD DO IT.

A small transmitter could have been set up in the window of a vacant office in each tower; A ground signal could have enabled the autopilot to make a coupled approach right into a tower by following that radio signal. That technology is readily available.

Did it happen? Who knows. Could it have happened? You bet.

Did the hijackers break into the cockpit and kill the pilots? For sure.

Did they manually fly the planes into WTC? No way - insufficient skills.

It is also possible that they were "given a story" like after they kill the crew, ground personnel would take the plane somewhere and land it. Hijackings have been done many times before, usually for political reasons. And maybe that is why these guys figured they would be doing time.

I SINCERELY DOUBT THAT ANY OF THEM KNEW THEY WOULD DIE IN A FLAMING CRASH.

There. I said my piece. For what it's worth.

Let's keep on unravelling the Gordian knot.

Many small contributions can add up to one giant AHAH
MrJim
QUOTE
I may be paranoid, but why then are they following me?
The truth is out there in the stars and it is spelled bush41

One man---two kids 7/6/46 and 8/19/46 could it be possible???


No -- what does this mean? One man, two kids...
graham4anything
QUOTE(MrJim @ Apr 26 2005, 04:01 PM)
No -- what does this mean?  One man, two kids...
*



LUKE...LUKE...Search inside...feel the force...the answer is ...
MrJim
QUOTE
LUKE...LUKE...Search inside...feel the force...the answer is ...


The force is weak today. What... two kids born about 7 weeks apart... to one father? Does this involve the Bushies somehow?

I don't get it...
Magmak1
QUOTE(Gabrielle @ Apr 26 2005, 01:54 AM)
I have a flat plate photo scanner.  Can that get it into a form that can be submitted on here?  That would save me SO much time! 

I'll hook up the scanner and see if I can get it to work.  Great idea, Magmak.  smile.gif
*


Well, the way it works here is that you place the book page down on the scanner, scan it into temporary memory, then copy that temporary page (reformatting it as you choose) into a word processing file, and then copying that file over here. It's tedious but, in the long run, for a large volume of text, it saves time and gives you the end-product you want.
Magmak1
QUOTE(jeffmoskin @ Apr 26 2005, 04:47 PM)
A small transmitter could have been set up in the window of a vacant office in each tower; A ground signal could have enabled the autopilot to make a coupled approach right into a tower by following that radio signal. That technology is readily available.
*



Precisely what's been suggested on at least one web site... and there are significant indicators that WTC7 had the homing signal (check the line of travel by each plane, directly in line with WTC7) and/or that something at the top of the Chrysler building was involved, as there were some funny reports that day involving that building.
Magmak1
Progressive Phoenix, good to hear from you again...

Your latest commentary gets right at the heart of the matter. To me, it's all about responsibility and, on that day, our nation's civilian-military leadership did not act responsibly.

As for the "elaborate scenarios" that were purportedly used if some of the "conspiracy theories" were to be seen as valid, it did not require that thousands of people be involved. As others have suggested, the "cult" of compartmentalization, secrecy and "need to know" insures that a mere few people have to be in the right place at the right time. You can see that in action today in the higher reaches of intelligence, counter-intelligence, homeland security and even more benign forms of our governance structures.
Gabrielle
QUOTE(progressivephoenix @ Apr 26 2005, 07:56 AM)
Why?  I never disputed the fact that Rumsfelt, Cheney, Ashcroft and rice could have colluded to supress or ignore intelligence.  It would not be that hard to do, and their subordinates are already on record saying that they engaged in inexplicable behavior of ignoring intelligence info.  It would easy for them to do this and get away with it.

I only disputed the elaborate scenarios involving thousands of people in dozens of locations, with very little evidence for it other people's poor understanding of engineering .
*


Well, then I wish you would share what you are thinking. I know you're smart. And I'd like to know what your thoughts are on what did happen. That's all I want to know - what really happened.
MrJim
QUOTE
Your latest commentary gets right at the heart of the matter. To me, it's all about responsibility and, on that day, our nation's civilian-military leadership did not act responsibly.


I'd say responsibility comes in a distant second to culpability. If the civilian-military leadership merely screwed up, that is a far different situation than if they actually planned this thing out.

This is similar to murder charges:

Manslaughter 2
Manslaughter 1
Murder 2
Murder 1

If you accidentally ran over someone because you were trying to look at your map while driving, this is far different than if you systematically fed someone arsenic over a few months, then tried to hide the evidence after the fact.
Gabrielle
QUOTE
Here's what I've got so far.  More later...

From "A Scandal Beyond What Has Been Seen Before" by Matt Everett in The Journal of Psychohistory Volume 32, No. 3.  Winter 2005.

PSYCHOHISOTRICAL REASONS FOR A 9/11 SCANDAL

There are in fact specific psychohistorical reasons I have identified why there could be a major 9/11 scandal in future.  I detail some of these in my previous article, “Killer Women Group-Fantasies and the 9/11 Controversy,” in which I examined signs of the current public mood in Britain and America. (123)  My evidence suggested both countries are in a state of particularly high anxiety and will need some kind of large crisis to make us all feel better.  But with no new ‘external enemy’ having been found, I suggested we might instead be veering towards ‘regicidal solution’ – where we somehow ‘sacrifice’ our own leaders.  For Britain this might mean Prime Minister Tony Blair at some point being forced to resign, perhaps if the situation in Iraq deteriorates further.  And for the U.S., I suggested a scandal around possible complicity by some within the Bush administration, U.S. military and intelligence services in the events of 9/11.  But what is the cause of the current public anxiety?  And why have our leaders been unable to find a new ‘external enemy’ to invade?

Lloyd de Mause describes how wars have generally occurred after periods of increased prosperity and social progress, especially when accompanied by more personal freedom.  He has found that increased wealth and social change causes many individuals anxiety and discomfort.

QUOTE
That personal achievement and prosperity often make individuals feel sinful and unworthy of their success is a commonplace observation of psychotherapy ever since Freud’s first case studies of people “ruined by success.”  Yet no one seems to have noticed that feelings of sinfulness are usually prominent in the shared emotional life of nations after long periods of peace, prosperity, and social progress, particularly if they are accompanied by more personal and sexual freedom. (124)


As de Mause points out: “wars between great powers occur during periods of economic expansion, while stagnation hinders their outbreak.” (125) Furthermore, “Wars not only occurred far more frequently after prosperous periods, but were longer and bigger after prosperity, ‘six to twenty times bigger as indicated by battle fatalities.’” (126)

De Mause has found recurrent images of guilt and poison blood in the media, following periods of prosperity and progress. The progress and increased wealth are felt to have ‘‘polluted the national blood stream with sinful excess’ making men ‘soft’ and ‘feminine,’ a frightful condition that can only be cleansed by a blood-shedding purification.” (127) De Mause continues:

QUOTE
Wars have often been thought of as purifying the nation’s polluted blood by virtue of a sacrificial rite identical to the rites of human sacrifice so common in early historical periods, when the blood of those sacrificed was believed to renew all the people.  War, said those preparing for the bloody Finnish Civil War, purges guilt-producing material prosperity through the blood of soldiers sacrificed on the battlefield. (128)


So, in the case of the 1991 Gulf War, once it was over:

QUOTE
The sacrificial ritual had been carried out exactly as planned: by a genocide of women and children. The nation had been cleansed of its emotional pollution.  The president’s popularity rating rose to 91 percent, the highest of any American leader in history.  The stock market soared… The country had been united by slaughter as it had never been by any positive achievement… We felt cleansed, purified, as though we had been reborn. (129)


To summarize then, periods of growth and prosperity cause much discomfort to many people: feelings of guilt, sinfulness, being ‘soft’ or ‘feminine,’ etc. And one way that nations frequently relieve these unpleasant feelings is by going to war.

The 1990s and the beginning of the new millennium certainly rank as a period of prosperity and change. Along with increasing wealth and social change, we have experienced a technological revolution, with cheaper and increasingly powerful home computers, DVD players, digital cameras, and many other previously unavailable gadgets. For example, between 1991 and 2001 the number of UK households with a home computer increased from 21 to 50 percent; (130) between 1998 and 2003, the number of UK households with Internet access rose from 9 to 48 percent; (131) whereas just 16 percent of UK households had a mobile phone in the 1996-1997 period, by 2001-02 this was up to 65 percent. (132)One writer recently concluded: “We live in the freest, happiest, least bigoted, healthiest, most peaceful, and longest-lived era in human history…[W]e are richer and have the power to alter and control our environment in ways that would have seemed like magic 200 years ago.” (133)

Considering de Mause’s observations about wars correlating with change and economic growth, it seems the conditions have been right for a particularly large war to occur. Although we have had recent wars in Afghanistan (2001) and Iraq (2003), these have been small in comparison to some key wars of the 20th century. For example, the Vietnam War lasted many years, from the 1960s through the early 70s. During this conflict, the U.S. used weapons of mass destruction, spraying South Vietnam with a deadly chemical called ‘Agent Orange,’ which causes fetal death, congenital defects and cancer. (134) Several million Southeast Asians were killed, along with around 58,000 American soldiers. The recent attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq pale in comparison. So surely we’ll need a bigger war than either of these, considering all the prosperity and change of the last decade. However, as I said at the start of this article, following the 2003 Iraq invasion, attempts by Britain and America to find a new, more formidable enemy to attack have so far failed.
Gabrielle
Continued from above. I couldn't fit all the quotes in one post.

QUOTE
I believe the reason for this is because there are now larger than ever numbers of people opposing the war. This in turn, I believe, is thanks to improvements in childrearing during the latter half of the 20th century.  ‘For years, psychohistorians have observed a steady evolution in childrearing that is now more rapid than ever before.  Lloyd de Mause writes:

QUOTE
Progress in childrearing evolution may be extremely uneven, but the trends are nonetheless unmistakable.  The overall direction is from projection to empathy, from discipline to self-regulation, from hitting to explaining, from incest to love, from rejection to over control and then to independence.

…Just the sheer cost of raising a child in dollars has been going up so fast that it now costs a middle-class American family $1.5 million for each child over 22 years, up to 20 percent in the past three decades.  The families I know in my section of Manhattan easily devote over half their spare time and half their income to their children.  Compare this to the small fraction of parents’ time and money given over to children in earlier centuries with children even spending most of their lives working for adults in various ways and one can begin to comprehend the overall direction of childrearing evolution. (135)


Similarly, in 1998 psychohistorian Robert McFarland wrote: “Improvements in parenting practices can now be measured in decades rather than in centuries. Since Sweden banned hitting children in 1979, Norway, Finland, Denmark, and Austria have followed.” (136) And whereas in 1992 over 90 percent of American parents hit their young children, by 1999 this had dropped to 57 percent.

Due to this steady ‘evolution of childhood,’ the average level of childrearing experienced by today’s young adults in developed countries will have been better than that experienced by previous generations. Consequently there are now more and more people in the higher ‘psychoclasses’: individuals who, due to their more loving childhoods, have a higher level of psychological health. J These individuals will be more able to enjoy their increased prosperity and the new technology that has become available over recent years, along with any increased personal freedoms. AS a result, they will have less, if any, desire for war.

This relationship between childhood experience and support for, or opposition to war, has been found, by, amongst others, political psychologist Michael Milburn. Milburn says:

QUOTE
We found that, particularly for males who had never had any psychotherapy, when they reported a high level of childhood punishment, they were significantly more likely to endorse a range of punitive public policies like … support for the use of military force.

…The higher level of punitiveness among political conservatives is really strongly associated with experiences, generally, of harsh punishment from childhood.  It’s not just going to be that they were spanked; there’s a whole family climate, and punishment is just going to be one of those indicators of that. (138)


If a person who experiences a severe and punitive childhood is likely to grow up into the kind of adult who favors the use of military force, w e might logically assume the opposite is also true: Individuals who had better childhoods will be less supportive of wars. Lloyd de Mause confirms this, describing his observations of young adults today who have experienced far more loving childhoods:

QUOTE
These individuals are far more empathic and therefore more concerned about others than we ever were, and this has made them far more activist in their lives in trying to make a difference and change the world for the better, mostly involving themselves in local activities rather than global political changes.  They lack all need for nationalism, wars, and other grandiose projects, and in the organizations they start are genuinely nonauthoritarian.  There is no question that if the world could treat children with helping-mode parenting, wars and all the other self-destructive social conditions we still suffer from in the twenty-first century will be cured. (139)


With the gradual improvement in the average level of childrearing over recent decades (in developed countries at least), we would expect a corresponding decrease in support for war. This was clearly evidenced by the unprecedented level of opposition to the 2003 Iraq invasion.. In London, for example, on Saturday February 15, 2003, an estimated one to two million people marched in protest against the imminent invasion: the largest public demonstration ever to occur in Britain. The following month, 400,000 marched through London, the biggest protest in Braitain against a war during wartime. (140) Weeks before the war started, Tony Blair suffered the biggest Commons revolt of his premiership when 199 MPs rejected his direction over Iraq. As the leader of the Liberal Democrats, Charlest Kennedy, observed: “Despite investing masses of political and parliamentary capital, the government has still failed to persuade a third of the House of Commons.” 141

According to leading political scholar and critic of American foreign policy Noam Chomsky, in an interview around this time:

QUOTE
There’s never been a time that I can think of when there’s been such massive opposition to a war before it was even started… Even in the United States there is overwhelming opposition to the war and that corresponding decline in trust in the leadership that is driving the war… If you compare it with the Vietnam war, the current stage of the war with Iraq is approximately like that of 1961 – that is before the war was actually launched, as it was in 1962 with the US bombing of South Vietnam and driving millions of people into concentration camps and chemical warfare and so on, but there was no protest.  In fact, so little protest that few people even remember. 142


Chomsky points out how even our governments are aware of this new reluctance towards war and have had to modify their actions accordingly:

QUOTE
When any administration comes into office the first thing it does is have a worldwide intelligence assessment – “What’s the state of the world?” – provided by the inte4lligence services… When the first Bush administration came in 1989 parts of their intelligence assessment were leaked, and they’re very revealing about what happened in the subsequent 10 years about precisely these questions.

The parts that were leaked said that it was about military confontations with much weaker enemies, recognizing they were the only kind we were going to be willing to face, or even exist.  So  in confrontationw with much weaker enemies the United States must win “decisively and rapidly” because otherwise popular support will erode, because it’s understood to be very thin. Not like in the 1960s when the government could fight a long, brutal war for years and years practically destroying a country without any protest.  Not now. 143


Although the peace movement failed to prevent the Iraq invasion when the war began it seemed they had made a significant difference. As Jonathan Freedland wrote in The Guardian:
QUOTE
The campaign began not with “shock and awe” but a subtler knife, aimed at the surgical decapitation of Saddam Hussein and his regime.  One night’s bombing of Baghdad lasted no more than an hour.  There could be a stack of explanations for that initial deployment of the short, sharp blow… But there may  be another motive for the initial preference for short-and-sweet over shock-and-awe.  The US might have wanted to avoid a wave of worldwide revultion.  A series of tight, well-aimed strikes at the regime would have confounded  the global fear of colossal Iraqi civilian casualties.  It’s as if Washington had heard the peace movement’s objection to this war – that too many innocents would die – and was attempting to heed it. 144


Freeedland continues:

QUOTE
Perhaps the clearest proof of the anti-war camp’s efforts came from our own prime minister: “I know this course of action has produced deep divisions of opinion in our country,” he said, just seconds into his own TV message to the nation. No leader wants to go into a war admitting such a thing.  But Blair had no choice.  AS with much else, the peace movement has changed the landscape for this conflict – and the men of war are having to deal with it. 145


What peace activists may well have achieved is the prevention of further invasions of ‘axis of evil’ countries. AS Lindsey German of the Stop the War Coalition said: “does anyone think Tony Blair can ever stand up in parliament again and say the words ‘trust me’? AS they talk up targeting Iran and Syria, do you think anyone will ever believe this government when they say we’ve got the intelligence to prove it?” 146

Maybe the improvements in childrearing over recent decades that account for this unprecedented opposition to war, will also mean there are now enough people less afraid to challenge authority and face unpleasant truths, so as to help bring about a 9/11 scandal. Compare this to, say, the truth about the attack on Pearl harbor in December 1941. We now know that President Franklin Roosevelt and his top military advisers knew in advance that Japan was planning a ‘surprise attack’ on America. Japanese radio messages had been intercepted and it was known when and where they would attack the US . Despite this foreknowledge, Roosevelt allowed the attack to go ahead so as to create a pretext for America to join World War II. Yet these facts only became more widely known in 2000, with the release of Robert B. Stinnett’s book Day of Deceit: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor. 147 Robert McFarland points out: “While it was 58 years before Stinnet’s book made the facts about Pearl Harbor widely known, two important books about 9/11 came out within a year… Since these books came out quickly, we are apparently more willing to look at bad news than we were in 1941.” 148

While a 9/11 scandal would be a sufficiently large public crisis to help ease the particularly high level of public anxiety (‘growth panic’) among the lower psychoclasses, unlike a massive war it ought also to be acceptable to the more peaceful higher psychoclass individuals. If we do have such a scandal, the emotional effect will undoubtedly be intense. Consider how the general public would feel if people start openly accusing some within the Bush administration of complicity in the 9/11 attacks. How would Americans feel who had voted for these men, trusted and respected them? I can imagine many people finding such events devastating. What if security camera footage of the attack on the Pentagon had to be made public at some point and is showed something other than a Boeing 757 hitting the Pentagon? Surely millions of people would feel horrified. The full implications of a 9/11 scandal would be colossal. It would be the emotional equivalent of a massive war. So maybe instead of the war “of a force and scope and scale that has been beyond what has been seen before,” that Donald Rumsfeld promised back in 2003, there is going to be a scandal of ‘a scope and scale’ that is ‘beyond what has been seen before.’
MrJim
QUOTE
As de Mause points out: “wars between great powers occur during periods of economic expansion, while stagnation hinders their outbreak.” (125) Furthermore, “Wars not only occurred far more frequently after prosperous periods, but were longer and bigger after prosperity, ‘six to twenty times bigger as indicated by battle fatalities.’” (126)


Is this why WWII arose out of the Great Depression?

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