Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Is this fallujah?
Common Ground Common Sense > Issues that Affect Our Lives > Foreign Policy and National Defense > Foreign Policy & National Defense Issues Archive
Pages: 1, 2, 3
heart
You might think so, and you know you would be so outraged!



This is a real live photo of Qaladzi City in 1974. The city was bombed by the Iraqi government on this day (24th of April) in 1974. The city was leveled to the groud...and no one spoke a word. Now it's so cool to be out their protesting, and to be anti-war....but where were you when this war against defensless people was happening? Why did Saddam think he could get away with it? Because not a word was spoken by you. Before you start decrying the war so much, just consider that there are so many people who thank the US on a daily basis for getting rid of Saddam. They don't like war, no one likes war, but they would prefer WE WIN, then for Zarqawi to win!
nnrecrut
QUOTE(heart @ Apr 27 2005, 03:00 PM)
You might think so, and you know you would be so outraged!



  Before you start decrying the war so much, just consider that there are so many people who thank the US on a daily basis for getting rid of Saddam.  They don't like war, no one likes war, but they would prefer WE WIN, then for Zarqawi to win!
*

Dahr Jamail's Iraq Dispatches **
** http://dahrjamailiraq.com **


I dont think the people of Fallujah are thanking (or will for years to come) for what the US did to their city in October/November. In our attempts to get Zarqawi and the insurgents, we are trampling over the people in Iraq--they are caught between the insurgents and our troops. I really wonder if they feel they are better off.

This is our Guernica

/Ruined, cordoned Falluja is emerging as the decade's monument to brutality/

Jonathan Steele and Dahr Jamail
Wednesday April 27, 2005
*The Guardian*

Robert Zoellick is the archetypal US government insider, a man with a
brilliant technical mind but zero experience of any coalface or war
front. Sliding effortlessly between ivy league academia, the US treasury
and corporate boardrooms (including an advisory post with the scandalous
Enron), his latest position is the number-two slot at the state department.

Yet this ultimate "man of the suites" did something earlier this month
that put the prime minister and the foreign secretary to shame. On their
numerous visits to Iraq, neither has ever dared to go outside the
heavily fortified green zones of Baghdad and Basra to see life as Iraqis
have to live it. They come home after photo opportunities, briefings and
pep talks with British troops and claim to know what is going on in the
country they invaded, when in fact they have seen almost nothing.

Zoellick, by contrast, on his first trip to Iraq, asked to see Falluja.
Remember Falluja? A city of some 300,000, which was alleged to be the
stronghold of armed resistance to the occupation.

Two US attempts were made to destroy this symbol of defiance last year.
The first, in April, fizzled out after Iraqi politicians, including many
who supported the invasion of their country, condemned the use of air
strikes to terrorise an entire city. The Americans called off the
attack, but not before hundreds of families had fled and more than 600
people had been killed.

Six months later the Americans tried again. This time Washington's
allies had been talked to in advance. Consistent US propaganda about the
presence in Falluja of a top al-Qaida figure, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, was
used to create a climate of acquiescence in the US-appointed Iraqi
government. Shia leaders were told that bringing Falluja under control
was the only way to prevent a Sunni-inspired civil war.

Blair was invited to share responsibility by sending British troops to
block escape routes from Falluja and prevent supplies entering once the
siege began.

Warnings of the onslaught prompted the vast majority of Falluja's
300,000 people to flee. The city was then declared a free-fire zone on
the grounds that the only people left behind must be "terrorists".

Three weeks after the attack was launched last November, the Americans
claimed victory. They say they killed about 1,300 people; one week into
the siege, a BBC reporter put the unofficial death toll at 2,000. But
details of what happened and who the dead were remain obscure. Were many
unarmed civilians, as Baghdad-based human rights groups report? Even if
they were trying to defend their homes by fighting the Americans, does
that make them "terrorists"?

Journalists "embedded" with US forces filmed atrocities, including the
killing of a wounded prisoner, but no reporter could get anything like a
full picture. Since the siege ended, tight US restric tions - as well as
the danger of hostage-taking that prevents reporters from travelling in
most parts of Iraq - have put the devastated city virtually off limits.

In this context Zoellick's trip, which was covered by a small group of
US journalists, was illuminating. The deputy secretary of state had to
travel to this "liberated" city in a Black Hawk helicopter flying low
over palm trees to avoid being shot down. He wore a flak jacket under
his suit even though Falluja's streets were largely deserted. His convoy
of eight armoured vehicles went "so quickly past an open-air bakery
reopened with a US-provided micro-loan that workers tossing dough could
be glanced only in the blink of an eye," as the Washington Post
reported. "Blasted husks of buildings still line block after block," the
journalist added.

Meeting hand-picked Iraqis in a US base, Zoellick was bombarded with
complaints about the pace of US reconstruction aid and frequent
intimidation of citizens by American soldiers. Although a state
department factsheet claimed 95% of residents had water in their homes,
Falluja's mayor said it was contaminated by sewage and unsafe.

Other glimpses of life in Falluja come from Dr Hafid al-Dulaimi, head of
the city's compensation commission, who reports that 36,000 homes were
destroyed in the US onslaught, along with 8,400 shops. Sixty nurseries
and schools were ruined, along with 65 mosques and religious sanctuaries.

Daud Salman, an Iraqi journalist with the Institute for War and Peace
Reporting, on a visit to Falluja two weeks ago, found that only a
quarter of the city's residents had gone back. Thousands remain in tents
on the outskirts. The Iraqi Red Crescent finds it hard to go in to help
the sick because of the US cordon around the city.

Burhan Fasa'a, a cameraman for the Lebanese Broadcasting Company,
reported during the siege that dead family members were buried in their
gardens because people could not leave their homes. Refugees told one of
us that civilians carrying white flags were gunned down by American
soldiers. Corpses were tied to US tanks and paraded around like trophies.

Justin Alexander, a volunteer for Christian Peacemaker Teams, recently
found hundreds living in tents in the grounds of their homes, or in a
single patched-up room. A strict system of identity cards blocks access
to anyone whose papers give a birthplace outside Falluja, so long-term
residents born elsewhere cannot go home. "Fallujans feel the remnants of
their city have been turned into a giant prison," he reports.

Many complain that soldiers of the Iraqi national guard, the fledgling
new army, loot shops during the night-time curfew and detain people in
order to take a bribe for their release. They are suspected of being
members of the Badr Brigade, a Shia militia that wants revenge against
Sunnis.

One thing is certain: the attack on Falluja has done nothing to still
the insurgency against the US-British occupation nor produced the death
of al-Zarqawi - any more than the invasion of Afghanistan achieved the
capture or death of Osama bin Laden. Thousands of bereaved and homeless
Falluja families have a new reason to hate the US and its allies.

At least Zoellick went to see. He gave no hint of the impression that
the trip left him with, but is too smart not to have understood
something of the reality. The lesson ought not to be lost on Blair and
Straw. Every time the prime minister claims it is time to "move on" from
the issue of the war's legality and rejoice at Iraq's transformation
since Saddam Hussein was toppled, the answer must be: "Remember
Falluja." When the foreign secretary next visits Iraq, he should put on
a flak jacket and tour the city that Britain had a share in destroying.

The government keeps hoping Iraq will go away as an election issue. It
stubbornly refuses to do so. Voters are not only angry that the war was
illegal, illegitimate and unnecessary. The treatment inflicted on Iraqis
since the invasion by the US and Britain is equally important.

In the 1930s the Spanish city of Guernica became a symbol of wanton
murder and destruction. In the 1990s Grozny was cruelly flattened by the
Russians; it still lies in ruins. This decade's unforgettable monument
to brutality and overkill is Falluja, a text-book case of how not to
handle an insurgency, and a reminder that unpopular occupations will
always degenerate into desperation and atrocity.

· Jonathan Steele is the Guardian's senior foreign correspondent; Dahr
Jamail is a freelance American journalist.
heart
Djar Jamail, Zarqawi, Osama...all the same kinds of enemies of the people of Iraq!!!!! Mr. Jamail, doesn't speak for most Iraqis, and when they needed him, he wasn't speaking for them then either. He is perfectly content to have everything stay under the dictators power. He is probably on some despot's payroll!
nnrecrut
QUOTE(heart @ Apr 27 2005, 04:52 PM)
Djar Jamail, Zarqawi, Osama...all the same kinds of enemies of the people of Iraq!!!!!  Mr. Jamail, doesn't speak for most Iraqis, and when they needed him, he wasn't speaking for them then either.  He is perfectly content to have everything stay under the dictators power.  He is probably on some despot's payroll!
*


I agree, Dhar Jamail does not speak for most Iraqi people, anymore than you or I do. However, to say that Dhar Jamail is the same kind of enemy to the Iraqi people as Zarqawi and Osama is over the top and rediculous.

I can't defend Dhar Jamail's motives for risking his life to report what is happening in Iraq, but I don't believe he is killing innocent Iraqis (or any Iraqis) or involved in any terrorist acts against the Iraqi people(or is the same kind of enemy to the Iraqi people as Osama and Zarqawi). I also don't believe he claims to speak for all Iraqis. Dhar Jamail is an independent American reporter who happens to be one of a few reporters in Iraq who are not supported by large corporate media in the US. If he is a terrorist perhaps you could share that information here.

Otherwise, your statement that he is probably on some "despot's payroll" and comparing him to two of the world's worse terrorist sounds like something the Bush admin would say of anyone who dares to report anything that does not support their rhetoric.

Today, Dhar Jamail, was on Democracy Now (Democracynow.org) on Link TV--the show will be reaired on FSTV and LINK TV at 10AM CST and various times during the day today and tonight. He didn't appear to be a terrorist to me or an enemy of the Iraqi people. Also, Jamail looks quite young--he may not have been born in 1974 or was a small child--I doubt if he could have spoken up for the Iraqi people during those years.

In 1974, it was the US who was arming and aiding Saddam.
nnrecrut
www.democracynow.org (Amy Goodman)

Thursday, April 28th, 2005
Iraq Through the Eyes of Unemebedded, Independent Journalist Dahr Jamail

Listen to Segment || Download Show mp3
Watch 128k stream Watch 256k stream
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dahr Jamail, one of the few independent, unembedded journalists reporting in Iraq for months, joins us in our firehouse studio to discuss the siege of Fallujah, detention of Iraqis, so-called "reconstruction" and much more.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the most enduring images of the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal is the photograph of a prisoner cloaked in black, standing on a box with wires attached to his outstretched arms.
Now, the man depicted in the photo has reportedly been identified. He is speaking out on this week's edition of the PBS newsmagazine "Now." His name is Haj Ali. He was a mayor of a Baghdad suburb and a member of the ruling Baath Party, when he was snatched off the street in late 2003 and transported to Abu Ghraib, despite denying involvement in the insurgency.

In the interview, Ali says, "They made me stand on a box with my hands hooked to wires and shocked me with electricity. It felt like my eyeballs were coming out of their sockets. I fell, and they put me back up again for more."

Today is the first anniversary of the publication of the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal. We turn now to Iraq.

We turn now to Iraq. An article in the British newspaper the Guardian titled "This Is Our Guernica" reads:


"In the 1930s the Spanish city of Guernica became a symbol of wanton murder and destruction. In the 1990s Grozny was cruelly flattened by the Russians; it still lies in ruins. This decade"s unforgettable monument to brutality and overkill is Falluja, a text-book case of how not to handle an insurgency, and a reminder that unpopular occupations will always degenerate into desperation and atrocity."

Those are the words of journalist Dahr Jamil. He spent many months in Iraq as one of the only independent, unembedded journalists there. He published his reports on a blog called DahrJamailIraq.com and was a regular guest on Democracy Now! He joins us in our firehouse studio today.
To purchase an audio or video copy of this entire program, click here for our new online ordering or call 1 (800) 881-2359.
flydangler
QUOTE(nnrecrut @ Apr 28 2005, 09:52 AM)
Dhar Jamail is an independent American reporter who happens to be one of a few reporters in Iraq who are not supported by large corporate media in the US
Methinks I've not seen anywhere on his site where he identifies the sources of his funding. 'Twould seem I've seen requests on other sites for donations to support his efforts though, but can't remember where they were. Would anyone here know?
nnrecrut
QUOTE(flydangler @ Apr 28 2005, 09:05 AM)
Methinks I've not seen anywhere on his site where he identifies the sources of his funding. 'Twould seem I've seen requests on other sites for donations to support his efforts though, but can't remember where they were. Would anyone here know?
*


Dahr Jamail does ask for donations to help support his independent reporting in Iraq.

Dahr Jamail's Iraq Dispatches **
** http://dahrjamailiraq.com **


New Video Tells Dahr's Story

Testimonies From Falluja
<http://images.indymedia.org/imc/seattle/media/2005/04/245474.mov>

*Eyewitness in Iraq: Dahr Jamail, an Unembedded Report*

A Pepperspray Production, 28 minutes

Dahr Jamail recognized that Americans were being misled about the US
occupation of Iraq, so he went to Iraq to find the truth. After being
*un*embedded in Iraq totaling over 8 months, he returned to the States
to tell what he discovered. In this video Dahr Jamail speaks of the
horrors of occupation, the use of illegal weapons by American forces,
the rip-off of American taxpayers by Bechtel and other US corporations,
the shabby and biased media coverage of the situation by US media, and
of the resilient determination of the Iraqi people to be free from
foreign occupation.

A portion of the price of this video goes to support Dahr in his ongoing
efforts.

See the preview!
<http://images.indymedia.org/imc/seattle/media/2005/04/245474.mov>

Buy the video from the PepperSpray Productions website
<http://peppersp.server312.com/videos.htm>


_______________________________________________
More writing, photos and commentary at http://dahrjamailiraq.com
heart
I actually do think he is helping Zarqawi. I've read where his stuff is posted (every single World Socialist Party in the world) and I've gotten some of his interviews translated too, and I think he knows where the insurgents are, and what they are doing, and he won't tell anyone...he thinks they are doing the right thing...so why tell.

He has no background really in journalism you know? He spent some 5-7 months in Iraq? Before that he hung around with the Peace and Justice Coalition who really are pretty mixed in with the RCP and the SWP...so I think that he had contacts before he went with some of the people that have been helping the insurgents. He did not walk out of Anchorage and stroll into Fallujah.

My point is lost though and that's kind of annoying.. I mean...there are plenty of threads about how awful everything is, and how Falluajah was a disaster, leveled and a bunch of other anti-military anti-war stuff and so FINE! But you know...you just HAVE TO...every now and then nrecut...every now and then...think to yourself,or picture in your mind what it was like to live there before us? Just try to think for a minute okay? I'm capable of crying over dead Iraqis okay....but I'm also capable of crying over oppressed and terrorized Iraqis...do you understand at all? PLEASE TELL ME YOU DO...there's just no way to think that Saddam didn't level villages whenever he felt like it and all of these people out protesting the war, they were never interested while those people died and were maimed.
cardinal
There's a common misperseption about who was supplying the Iraqi's. Russia was the major conventional arms supplier to Iraq from 1973 -1990. At least that's what the Stockholm Peace Insitute reports. France was #2.

Sorry, Heart didn't mean to throw this off topic. Here's Zarquai, a Jordanian, operating freely out of Fallujeh, with his house of horrors and not a peep about it from DJ. Makes me question both his allegiance and his independence.
SemperFidelis
QUOTE(heart @ Apr 28 2005, 06:49 PM)
My point is lost though and that's kind of annoying.. I mean...there are plenty of threads about how awful everything is, and how Falluajah was a disaster, leveled and a bunch of other anti-military anti-war stuff and so FINE!
*

No, it's not fine! There have been numerous topics started by nnrecrut and others, many based on so called reports by Dahr Jamail, that claimed misdeeds by our military personnel and other things that just weren't true. Others besides myself have refuted them over and over, yet people here continue to take his reports as gospel.

He claimed poison gas and napalm were used in Fallujah last November, civilians carrying flags of truce were shot down, the city was leveled and other serious accusations, but after talking to my son who was there (some of you have seen his reports posted here and on other sites), seeing plenty of video here and elsewhere and from other sources (including European press, certainly no friend of America's efforts in Iraq) Jamail's allegatons just don't hold up. As far as I'm concerned he's nothing but a fraud!

One other thing I've noticed is that almost everything he writes relates the experiences and observations of others, but no first hand observations. He's not a reporter, he's an editorialist and his reports are filled with his feelings, not real news. It could well be that he's celebrated by those wanting to believe what he writes, but it's not believable. I'm sorry, but that's just the way I see it.
flydangler
QUOTE(nnrecrut @ Apr 28 2005, 12:05 PM)
Dahr Jamail does ask for donations to help support his independent reporting in Iraq
Methinks I'd seen a couple other sites like Antiwar.com asking for donations to him, so I used the AltaVista search engine for "Dahr Jamail" and "donations" and found the following.

His own site, but he doesn't identify any of his sources.

Other calls for donations were found at:

Multiple pages at ElectronicIraq.net, which I'm not quite sure how to figure, but they say "a supplementary news portal from the people who brought you the Electronic Intifada", so methinks I can figure where they're comin' from, eh?

The Ester Republic(noted as "the national rag of the people's republic of ester independent) which methinks says where their ideas lie

Counter Currents, which advocates for "communalism" and seems to have big problems with "US Imperialism" (where have I heard that before?)

InfoShop which also seems to be pushing EuroMayday2005 (and we all know who May Day is a big day for, don't we?)

Double Standards which is like ground zero for conspiracy theories

Axis Of Logic which, if you read through it in enough places, seems to advocate for the Workers World Party a self described socialist organization affiliated with A.N.S.W.E.R.

The WilliamBowles.Info site site, which according to its homepage is dedicated to "Investigating imperialism" which methinks is reasonably descriptive where their head is at

Mindfully.org which is full of more conspiracy theories and such

Voices In The Wilderness who is an antiwar group advocating nonpayment of taxes and training activists for "nonviolent action"

'Twould seem there were plenty other sites doing the same, but methinks this be enough for y'all to get the idea.

I also found things that bring his claim of being an independent journalist into question, eh? PeoplesNetWorks/The NewStandard which notes "Iraq dispatches is a weblog collecting the daily writings of Dahr Jamail, Baghdad correspondent for The NewStandard", but I was under the impression he was an independent journalist, eh? Interestingly I find he is also identified as the special correspondent in Iraq for Flashpoints radio yet he is supposedly independent? Methinks something does not compute, eh?

What's really interesting is that his often time companion and source for information, Abu Talat, may be someone very interesting in his own right. His name appears to be a pseudonym for a terrorist whose real name is Talat Fuad Kassem and who may actually be the founder of the Egyptian terrorist group Gama’a Islamiyya. May not be the same guy, but methinks a supposedly well informed journalist wouldn't use this pseudonym for his source/guide/translator/?

'Twould also seem he's a Sunni Muslim, which may affect what we hear from him, eh? Methinks you can Google, or use whatever your favorite search engine happens to be, for that and you'll get some very interesting results. From Khilafah.com comes this quote:

'This has been the sentiment throughout the U.S. occupation in Ramadi, about 120 km (75 mi.) west of Baghdad, and in many other places. "They only care for themselves," Abu Talat said in al-Adhamiya district of Baghdad last week. "And how can they represent Iraqis if none of us voted for them?"'.

This methinks shows where his sentiment lies, eh?

I gotta agree with the Gunny too. Dahr Jamail does seem to consciously stay away from writing about what he's seen himself. Methinks most everything's 'bout what others are saying 'bout various stuff and he never backs up his allegations, eh? Methinks when his report on poison gas and napalm was posted either here or the old K/E online forum we really dissected that one, and a few others too if I ain't mistaken.
Marine
QUOTE(flydangler @ Apr 28 2005, 08:25 PM)
Methinks I'd seen a couple other sites like Antiwar.com asking for donations to him, so I used the AltaVista search engine for "Dahr Jamail" and "donations" and found the following.

His own site, but he doesn't identify any of his sources.

Other calls for donations were found at:

Multiple pages at ElectronicIraq.net, which I'm not quite sure how to figure, but they say "a supplementary news portal from the people who brought you the Electronic Intifada", so methinks I can figure where they're comin' from, eh?

The Ester Republic(noted as "the national rag of the people's republic of ester independent) which methinks says where their ideas lie

Counter Currents, which advocates for "communalism" and seems to have big problems with "US Imperialism" (where have I heard that before?)

InfoShop which also seems to be pushing EuroMayday2005 (and we all know who May Day is a big day for, don't we?)

Double Standards which is like ground zero for conspiracy theories

Axis Of Logic which, if you read through it in enough places, seems to advocate for the Workers World Party a self described socialist organization affiliated with A.N.S.W.E.R.

The WilliamBowles.Info site site, which according to its homepage is dedicated to "Investigating imperialism" which methinks is reasonably descriptive where their head is at

Mindfully.org which is full of more conspiracy theories and such

Voices In The Wilderness who is an antiwar group advocating nonpayment of taxes and training activists for "nonviolent action"

'Twould seem there were plenty other sites doing the same, but methinks this be enough for y'all to get the idea.

I also found things that bring his claim of being an independent journalist into question, eh?  PeoplesNetWorks/The NewStandard which notes "Iraq dispatches is a weblog collecting the daily writings of Dahr Jamail, Baghdad correspondent for The NewStandard", but I was under the impression he was an independent journalist, eh? Interestingly I find he is also identified as the special correspondent in Iraq for Flashpoints radio yet he is supposedly independent? Methinks something does not compute, eh?

What's really interesting is that his often time companion and source for information, Abu Talat, may be someone very interesting in his own right. His name appears to be a pseudonym for a terrorist whose real name is Talat Fuad Kassem and who may actually be the founder of the Egyptian terrorist group Gama’a Islamiyya. May not be the same guy, but methinks a supposedly well informed journalist wouldn't use this pseudonym for his source/guide/translator/?

'Twould also seem he's a Sunni Muslim, which may affect what we hear from him, eh? Methinks you can Google, or use whatever your favorite search engine happens to be, for that and you'll get some very interesting results. From Khilafah.com comes this quote:

'This has been the sentiment throughout the U.S. occupation in Ramadi, about 120 km (75 mi.) west of Baghdad, and in many other places. "They only care for themselves," Abu Talat said in al-Adhamiya district of Baghdad last week. "And how can they represent Iraqis if none of us voted for them?"'.

This methinks shows where his sentiment lies, eh?

I gotta agree with the Gunny too. Dahr Jamail does seem to consciously stay away from writing about what he's seen himself. Methinks most everything's 'bout what others are saying 'bout various stuff and he never backs up his allegations, eh? Methinks when his report on poison gas and napalm was posted either here or the old K/E online forum we really dissected that one, and a few others too if I ain't mistaken.
*

I was going to comment on this myself Doc but you beat me to the punch. I can go look it up again but I remember posting a bunch of stuff on this same fellow Dahr Jamail about his support group in Iraq being nothing but a bunch of self admitted psuedo Marxist.

I just can't fathom how someone can still adhere to a Marxist philosophy when Marxism has proved itself that it is a failed philosophy. Well I hear tell their are still some people out their practicing the religion of the ancient Greeks and Romans, I guess anything is possible.
Acebass
Kind of like the disaster in Rowanda, Hu, but still nobody cares, guess they didn't have enough oil.



QUOTE(heart @ Apr 27 2005, 04:00 PM)
You might think so, and you know you would be so outraged!
This is a real live photo of Qaladzi City in 1974. The city was bombed by the Iraqi government on this day (24th of April) in 1974.  The city was leveled to the groud...and no one spoke a word.  Now it's so cool to be out their protesting, and to be anti-war....but where were you when this war against defensless people was happening?  Why did Saddam think he could get away with it? Because not a word was spoken by you.  Before you start decrying the war so much, just consider that there are so many people who thank the US on a daily basis for getting rid of Saddam.  They don't like war, no one likes war, but they would prefer WE WIN, then for Zarqawi to win!
*
nnrecrut
QUOTE(heart @ Apr 28 2005, 04:49 PM)
My point is lost though and that's kind of annoying.. I mean...there are plenty of threads about how awful everything is, and how Falluajah was a disaster, leveled and a bunch of other anti-military anti-war stuff and so FINE!  But you know...you just HAVE TO...every now and then nrecut...every now and then...think to yourself,or picture in your mind what it was like to live there before us?  Just try to think for a minute okay?  I'm capable of crying over dead Iraqis okay....but I'm also capable of crying over oppressed and terrorized Iraqis...do you understand at all?  PLEASE TELL ME YOU DO...there's just no way to think that Saddam didn't level villages whenever he felt like it and all of these people out protesting the war, they were never interested while those people died and were maimed.
*


I understand your point that the Iraqi people suffered tragically under Saddam--not just in in 1974, but throughout his years as dictator. The Kuwaitis and the Iranians suffered also. That is why so many Americans (including myself) supported Bush when he decided to invade Iraq. I believed Bush/Rice/Cheney and others in this Administration when they said that Saddam had WMDs and was in cohoots with the Al Qaeda. I believed the reports that Hans Blix was wrong when he claimed that the Iraqis did not have WMDs, and I was sure that Scott Ritter was a traitor for not supporting the Bush Admin's claim about WMDs.

I also was disappointed when Bush, Sr. did not continue into Baghdad to take out Saddam in the first Gulf war. So, when Bush, Jr. made the convincing case why he wanted to invade Iraq--I thought it was the right decission. It was annoying to watch so many anti war protestors out in full force during the first few days and weeks of the invasion.

Interestingly, my father ( a retired military man with expertise in Middle east) and my husband (a Vietnam vet) both opposed Bush's decission to invade Iraq. Neither of them bought the WMD story and having both been in wars, were very concerned about our troops. My father was sure that Bush would not be able to just swoop into Iraq and be greeted with open arms. He was sure that Bush had no understanding of ME culture and he would destabalize the entire region. I didn't agree with either of them.

However, it became very clear soon after the invasion, the American people had been lied to about the WMD. As I watched the first few hours of "Shock and Awe", it struck me that the Iraqi people were being victimized and many were going to suffer and die for a war based on lies.

I am against this war today--I resent being lied to, and I resent what is happening to our troops and the innocent Iraqi people. I don't believe in burying my head in the sand on what is happening in Iraq today--whether it is being done by the US or the insurgents. The fact is we are responsible--we should demand the truth and not make efforts to discredit anyone who reports a story that doesn't agree with what we want to believe.
Marine
QUOTE(nnrecrut @ Apr 27 2005, 03:20 PM)
This is our Guernica
*

You got it backwards buddy, the Fascist bombed Guernica.

The Fascist got their hineys whipped in Fallujah, this was the the Islamo-Fascist's Stalingrad.
nnrecrut
QUOTE(Marine @ Apr 29 2005, 09:44 AM)
You got it backwards buddy, the Fascist bombed Guernica. 

The Fascist got their hineys whipped in Fallujah, this was the the Islamo-Fascist's Stalingrad.
*



One of the authors of the article titled, "This is our Guernica" (you are referring to in your post above) is Jonathan Steele ( Jonathan Steele, the Guardian’s Senior Foreign correspondent). You can email him with your comment at j.steele@guardian.co.uk
Acebass
QUOTE(nnrecrut @ Apr 29 2005, 11:16 AM)
One of the authors of the article titled, "This is our Guernica"  (you are referring to in your post above) is Jonathan Steele ( Jonathan Steele, the Guardian’s Senior Foreign correspondent). You can email him with your comment at j.steele@guardian.co.uk
*

Very nicely put! I like that.
Marine
QUOTE(nnrecrut @ Apr 29 2005, 10:16 AM)
One of the authors of the article titled, "This is our Guernica"  (you are referring to in your post above) is Jonathan Steele ( Jonathan Steele, the Guardian’s Senior Foreign correspondent). You can email him with your comment at j.steele@guardian.co.uk
*

Thanks for the e-mail address, I'll certainly do that.
flydangler
QUOTE(Marine @ Apr 29 2005, 11:44 AM)
the Fascist bombed Guernica
Read all 'bout it in Bombing_of_Guernica (From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

From what I've seen, read and info gotten from someone who was actually in Fallujah for the battle last November methinks the damage was not nearly as extensive as the Guernica bombardment.
Marine
QUOTE(flydangler @ Apr 29 2005, 01:19 PM)
Read all 'bout it in Bombing_of_Guernica (From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

From what I've seen, read and info gotten from someone who was actually in Fallujah for the battle last November methinks the damage was not nearly as extensive as the Guernica bombardment.
*


And maybe Mr. Steele will respond to why he considers an operation by troops of the United States of American in pursuit of terrorist to be the same as fascist bombing a Basque city flat.
Acebass
QUOTE(Marine @ Apr 29 2005, 02:30 PM)
And maybe Mr. Steele will respond to why he considers an operation by troops of the United States of American in pursuit of terrorist to be the same as fascist bombing a Basque city flat.
*

Well then you should write him shouldn't you.
nnrecrut
QUOTE(flydangler @ Apr 29 2005, 01:19 PM)
Read all 'bout it in Bombing_of_Guernica (From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

*


Interesting article. You can also read about Fallujah on the same site:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallujah


QUOTE
He claimed poison gas and napalm were used in Fallujah last November, civilians carrying flags of truce were shot down, the city was leveled and other serious accusations, but after talking to my son who was there (some of you have seen his reports posted here and on other sites), seeing plenty of video here and elsewhere and from other sources (including European press, certainly no friend of America's efforts in Iraq) Jamail's allegatons just don't hold up. As far as I'm concerned he's nothing but a fraud!


The reports of a napalm like material used in Fallujah was reported by many journalist, however, the Pentagon denies using napalm at any time in Iraq. I think the Pentagon is being honest and has not used napalm. However, what the people of Fallujah experienced (the burns and smell) was probably white phosphorus. There are reports of a smell similar to napalm and "skin melting" burns that could have been caused by white phosphorus.

" Reports by the Washington Post suggest that US armed forces used white phosphorus grenades and/or artillery shells, creating walls of fire in the city. Doctors working inside Fallujah report seeing melted corpses of suspected insurgents. The use of WP ammunition was confirmed from various independent sources, including US troops who had suffered WP burns due to 'friendly fire'"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallujah

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts103.html (good information on White phosphorus)
flydangler
QUOTE(nnrecrut @ Apr 29 2005, 04:27 PM)
Interesting article. You can also read about Fallujah on the same site:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallujah
Yup! Methinks it goes hand in hand with what some of us been saying and in no way describes the level of damage claimed in a number of articles by Dahr Jamail or any comparison to what was seen in the bombing of Guernica, eh? Gunny's son, who actually participated in November's battle, indicated a significant portion of the damage to buildings outside of the insurgents' enclave was caused by IED's, RPG's and other ordnance used by the insurgents, yet 'twould seem the Americans are being blamed for it all, eh?
QUOTE
The reports of a napalm like material used in Fallujah was reported by many journalist, however, the Pentagon denies using napalm at any time in Iraq. I think the Pentagon is being honest and has not used napalm.
'Twould seem one of those instances where "journalists" displayed their total ignorance about the subject they were writin' 'bout, eh?
QUOTE
However, what the people of Fallujah experienced (the burns and smell) was probably white phosphorus. There are reports of a smell similar to napalm and "skin melting" burns that could have been caused by white phosphorus.

" Reports by the Washington Post suggest that US armed forces used white phosphorus grenades and/or artillery shells, creating walls of fire in the city. Doctors working inside Fallujah report seeing melted corpses of suspected insurgents. The use of WP ammunition was confirmed from various independent sources, including US troops who had suffered WP burns due to 'friendly fire'"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallujah

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts103.html (good information on White phosphorus)
*
WP is used in smoke and illumination rounds and smoke grenades. Methinks if people play with them or try picking them up they're gonna get burned, eh? To the best of my knowledge the American military has freely admitted using WP marking rounds and smoke grenades in Iraq during briefings, releases and such. Where's the beef?

Very early in the invasion stage the US admitted to using Mark 77 firebombs (which have some napalm like properties) in a couple instances in Iraq against well dug in bunkered forces, I think guarding bridge approaches. Other than that 'twould seem there's been no use of these or similar weapons, eh?

You might wanna look at this thread, probably 'bout post #80 and after, and then this thread where we talked about the limited use of incendriary ordnance with some napalm like characteristics early on during the actual invasion of Iraq and what was actually used in Fallujah. In that second thread 'twould seem someone named nnrecrut was saying much of the same as seems you been saying here lately, eh?

Methinks Dahr Jamail was the only "journalist" to claim Americans used "poison gas" in Fallujah. I wonder why?
SemperFidelis
I don't care whether or not someone was against our invasion of Iraq, or what they feel about our current status there. Even taking the question of WMD out of the equation I think that there are plenty of good reasons for people of conscience to hold whatever position they have chosen on this and I respect that, even if their opinion differs from mine. To me that is not what this thread is about though, is it?

My concern is that there are widespread unfounded allegations about what American military personnel have done and are doing in Iraq. That's not to say there haven't been incidents where some are guilty of misdeeds, some very serious, and those responsible, including those in leadership roles that should have stopped it need to be punished accordingly. Just the same painting all our military with such a broad brush without any foundation is in my opinion reprehensible, it's like punishing all of them for the actions of a few.

Some people here have made wild unfounded allegations concerning our military personnel, many concerning the battle for Fallujah last November. Word of this does get back to the troops and makes them hesitate before acting, sometimes resulting in unnecessary casualties and deaths according to my son, a Marine officer serving in Iraq. That seems to me to equate to using free speech to support terrorism against our troops.

If you want to see a parallel to this misinformation by "journalists" and its effects read "Analysis: A mini-Tet offensive in Iraq?" By Arnaud de Borchgrave, UPI Editor at Large, eh?

People tell me I should stay away from making these forays for my blood pressure's sake. Unfortunately I can't let what I know is taking place to go on without commenting on it. I seriously doubt most here would consciously do anything to hurt our troops, but without realizing it they may be doing just that!
big sky brad
QUOTE(SemperFidelis @ Apr 29 2005, 04:58 PM)
I don't care whether or not someone was against our invasion of Iraq, or what they feel about our current status there.

Why not?
big sky brad
QUOTE(cardinal @ Apr 28 2005, 07:00 PM)
There's a common misperseption about who was supplying the Iraqi's.  Russia was the major conventional arms supplier to Iraq from 1973 -1990.  At least that's what the Stockholm Peace Insitute reports.  France was #2.

Oh, wow, you're way off here, honey, sorry.
nnrecrut
QUOTE(SemperFidelis @ Apr 29 2005, 04:58 PM)
Some people here have made wild unfounded allegations concerning our military personnel, many concerning the battle for Fallujah last November. Word of this does get back to the troops and makes them hesitate before acting, sometimes resulting in unnecessary casualties and deaths according to my son, a Marine officer serving in Iraq. That seems to me to equate to using free speech to support terrorism against our troops.

If you want to see a parallel to this misinformation by "journalists" and its effects read "Analysis: A mini-Tet offensive in Iraq?" By Arnaud de Borchgrave, UPI Editor at Large, eh?

People tell me I should stay away from making these forays for my blood pressure's sake. Unfortunately I can't let what I know is taking place to go on without commenting on it. I seriously doubt most here would consciously do anything to hurt our troops, but without realizing it they may be doing just that!
*


Although, I do understand where you are coming from (in regard to safety of troops and unfounded allegations, and your blood pressure), I do not agree that you should take it upon yourself to discredit anyone who you "think" is making "wild" allegations.

Even if you, Marine and Flydangler swoop in like the Marines everytime someone posts something on the Iraq forum that you find disagreeable, making every effort to chase them away from the forum--you are not going to succeed in suppressing it from getting out to the public. The fact is that by the time any of us post something on this forum--it is information that is already been read by thousands, maybe millions of others.

You do a pretty good job of making your case against what you believe is not correct, but where you and your marine buddies go wrong is that you think you are always right.

Many of us want the truth about what is going on Iraq--we all are affected in some way by what happens there whether it be our troops or govt actions. To discredit anyone who reports a story that is contrary to what we want to believe does not help our troops. Just because we don't believe or discuss the story does not mean that millions of others worldwide are not.
heart
nnrecrut: Thank you for your reply about life under Saddam and the Iranians and Kuwaitis too. I always think "remember the Maine" and then, it turns out, it really was just an accidental explosion. Nations aren't always acting on good intelligence..but if there had have been WMD there, would you be for the war? Because, the reason I ask is, if that's the case it would have been justified to overthrow Saddam, but the same things would be happening in Iraq. I agree with you that we were sold on the WMD, and it was inflated, but I still think that even Saddam believed he had some of that stuff and no one would tell him he didn't. After the invasion, and after we find out there is no WMD, now we have this horrible situation where these people are just terrorizing the country and I don't see how we can possibly leave them in their hands, and I don't see how anyone can find all those mass graves, prison horror chambers and all the documentation about what he did to people and say that we are doing the wrong thing by trying to form a stable and relatively free Iraq.
big sky brad
I have a question for you, heart.

How much of Fallujah is left standing?
cardinal
QUOTE(big sky brad @ Apr 29 2005, 06:45 PM)
Oh, wow, you're way off here, honey, sorry.
*


As of 1990

Aircraft
MiG-29s - 70 (Soviet)
Mig-25s - 18 (Soviet)
MiG-23s - 20 (Soviet)
MiG-21s - 105 (Soviet)
F-7s - 20 (Red China)
MiG-17s - 30 (Soviet)
Su-25s - 20 (Soviet)
Su-20s - 30 (Soviet)
Su-7s - 50 (Soviet)
F-6s - 20 (Red China)
Su-24s - 10 (Soviet)
Mirage F1s - 100 (FRANCE)
MiG-23/27s - 70 (Soviet)
Il-20s - 10 (Soviet)
Tu-22s - 7 (Soviet)
Tu-16s -12 (Soviet)

Armored Vehicles
T-54/55 - 1400 (Soviet)
Type 59 - 500 (Red China)
Type 69 - 1000 (Red China)
T-62 - 1600 (Soviet)
T-72 - 1000 (Soviet)

IFVs, armored recon vehicles, and APCs - 9000 total, aprox (biggest component BTR - 60s); no precise breakdown but consist of:

EE-3 (Brazil)
EE-9 (Brazil)
EE-11 (Brazil)
ERC-90 (FRANCE)
AML-60 (FRANCE)
AML-90 (FRANCE)
Panhard M-3 (FRANCE)
FUG-70 (Hungary)
BRDM-2 (Soviet)
BTR-40 (Soviet)
BTR-50 (Soviet)
BTR-60 (Soviet)
BMP-1 (Soviet)
Type 63 (China)
OT-62 (Czechoslovakia)
OT-63 (Czechoslovakia)
BVP-1 (Czechoslovakia)
Walid (Egypt)

Navy
Interesting to note, at the time Iraq had 13 modern ships on order from ITALY

Artillery
G-5 155mm (South Africa)
GHN-45 155mm (AUSTRIA)
Astros-II SS-30 MRL (Brazil)
Astros-II SS-40 MRL (Brazil)
M56 105mm (BRITAIN)
D-74 122mm (Soviet)
D-30 122mm (Soviet)
2S1 122mm (Soviet)
2S3 152mm (Soviet)
M1937 152mm (Soviet)
M1938 122mm (Soviet)
M1939 37mm (Soviet)
M1943 152mm (Soviet)
M-1975 122mm MRL (Soviet)
BM-21 122mm MRL (Soviet)
BM-13 132mm MRL (Soviet)
S-23 180mm (Soviet)
ZSU-23-4 23mm (Soviet)
ZSU-57-2 (Soviet)
ZU-23 23mm (Soviet)
"Majnoon" 155mm (Iraq/Gerald Bull of CANADA)
"Al Fao" 210mm (Iraq/Gerald Bull of CANADA)
82 mm Mortar (Soviet)
SA-2 SAM (Soviet)
SA-3 SAM (Soviet)
SA-6 SAM (Soviet)
SA-7 SAM (Soviet)
SA-13 SAM (Soviet)

Small Arms
AK-47 (Soviet)
RPK (Soviet)
RPG-7 (Soviet)
big sky brad
You forgot to list the WMD's the US sold to Iraq during that same time period, cardinal.

You know, the chemical and biological weapons that Reagan sold to Hussein.
Marine
QUOTE(Acebass @ Apr 29 2005, 02:22 PM)
Well then you should write him shouldn't you.
*

Your advice is a bit late Ace, I wrote him soon as it was suggested I should contact him.

I also asked about if he was collaborating with Dahr Jamail on this story why his own paper has nothing in their archives on the story nor claims any association with the story. I'm really surprised a real journalist would lend his name and credibility to Dahr Jamail.

We have numerous threads on this forum over the post four months which have throughly discredited Dahr Jamails integrity. So much has been posted here exposing Dahr Jamail spend a little time searching the forum, I won't waste my time posting more about him because posting more about Dahr Jamail would be extremely redundant. It's almost as bad as the number of draft threads which have been started.
flydangler
QUOTE(nnrecrut @ Apr 29 2005, 08:06 PM)
Many of us want the truth about what is going on Iraq--we all are affected in some way by what happens there whether it be our troops or govt actions. To discredit anyone who reports a story that is contrary to what we want to believe does not help our troops. Just because we don't believe or discuss the story does not mean that millions of others worldwide are not.
Methinks if you really wanted the truth you wouldn't keep pushing or trying to defend Dahr Jamail's "reports. If a story, like most of his, were true they wouldn't be so easy to refute now would they, eh?

Why do you and others keep pushing unfounded stories. 'Twould seem you're trying to discredit our troops on a wholesale basis without reason. Methinks you be awful quick to criticize those of us finding fault with these baseless or faulty stories, yet 'twould seem at times you've even admitted seeing the flaws in them yourself. Why? If the stories aren't true is there any reason you'd still want to keep them going, or even keep discussing them as if they're true?

Methinks 'tis not my place to try speaking for Master Guns, the Gunny or anybody else, so this goes only for me. When I feel strongly 'bout something, and believe me blanket allegations against our military be somethin' I feel strongly 'bout, then I gotta try finding out the truth. If I find these allegation are definitely, or even probably unfounded I just gotta say something. When I find I'm wrong I keep my mouth shut and fingers off the keyboard. 'Tain't that I'm infallible or always right, but I choose when and where to take a stand, eh? Methinks you choose to see it differently though.

While back here on leave, on another site, Gunny's son gave us what methinks is a pretty thorough report on what he saw during the battle for Fallujah. One paragraph described the damage to the city. Here it is: "The city was prepped with artillery fire and ordnance from aircraft directed at that area of the city where the insurgents were known to be holed up and operating out of. That part of the city was almost totally destroyed, but any reports that the city itself was razed are totally false. Of the approximately 70,000 homes and buildings in Fallujah maybe 15% were completely destroyed, another 20% significantly damaged and all but about 30% took some damage, but in many cases it was from bombs/booby traps, mortars and RPG's used by the insurgents, not our forces. Of the approximately 100 mosques in the city about 60 were used as cover or bases of operations by insurgents, apparently believing we would respect their religious property more than they did, but if we took fire from a mosque it became fair game for suppression fire. Just the same, I know of no case where a mosque was completely destroyed although some minarets were."

Here is a link to a BBC video about the battle for Fallujah. Methinks they did a pretty good job and it sure shows that the level of destruction claimed by Dahr Jamail and others to be untrue, eh? Watch it yourself, you be the judge!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/news_web/video...639_bb_16x9.asx
Marine
QUOTE(big sky brad @ Apr 29 2005, 05:45 PM)
Oh, wow, you're way off here, honey, sorry.
*

As usual you're full of balony brad. Go check out the database maintained at SIPRI (Stockholm International Peace Research Institute for someone as uninformed as you appear to be) and take note that the Soviet Union and subsequently Russia supplies better than 65% of Iraq's armaments. As Cardinal correctly states France was the number two supplier of arms to Saddam's Iraq.

The United States posts a rather dismal figure behind military arms supplying power houses such as Denmark as a supplier of arms to Saddam's Iraq.

Maybe you should read a few things before you post or do assume everyone will just take your word for it?
Marine
QUOTE(big sky brad @ Apr 29 2005, 07:53 PM)
You forgot to list the WMD's the US sold to Iraq during that same time period, cardinal.

You know, the chemical and biological weapons that Reagan sold to Hussein.
*

Here again brad posts with nothing to substaintiate what he claims, I'll give you a pass on this one if you want to came back and make corrections brad. See brad, I'm really a nice guy.
Marine
QUOTE(nnrecrut @ Apr 29 2005, 06:06 PM)
Although, I do understand where you are coming from (in regard to safety of troops and unfounded allegations, and your blood pressure), I do not agree that you should take it upon yourself to discredit anyone who you "think" is making "wild" allegations.

Even if you, Marine and Flydangler swoop in like the Marines everytime someone posts something on the Iraq forum that you find disagreeable, making every effort to chase them away from the forum--you are not going to succeed in suppressing it from getting out to the public. The fact is that by the time any of us post something on this forum--it is information that is already been read by thousands, maybe millions of others.

You do a pretty good job of making your case against what you believe is not correct, but where you and your marine buddies go wrong is that you think you are always right.

Many of us want the truth about what is going on Iraq--we all are affected in some way by what happens there whether it be our troops or govt actions. To discredit anyone who reports a story that is contrary to what we want to believe does not help our troops. Just because we don't believe or discuss the story does not mean that millions of others worldwide are not.
*

Well when someone keeps attributing stories to Dahr Jamail on a regular basis and if the previous posts submitted from various sources documenting a general lack of integrity and credibility of Dahr Jamail were converted to reams of paper we would be responsible for the destruction of enough trees the Sierra Club would be picketing us.
big sky brad
QUOTE(Marine @ Apr 29 2005, 08:49 PM)
Here again brad posts with nothing to substaintiate what he claims, I'll give you a pass on this one if you want to came back and make corrections brad.

It's common knowledge clear around the world that Reagan gave WMD's to Hussein in the 80's, Tex.

Bush even continued to ship Hussein WMD's after the Persian Gulf War.
big sky brad
QUOTE(Marine @ Apr 29 2005, 08:45 PM)
As usual you're full of balony brad. 

I had just had lunch.
big sky brad
QUOTE(flydangler @ Apr 29 2005, 08:30 PM)
Here is a link to a BBC video about the battle for Fallujah. Methinks they did a pretty good job and it sure shows that the level of destruction claimed by Dahr Jamail and others to be untrue, eh? Watch it yourself, you be the judge!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/news_web/video...639_bb_16x9.asx
*

That link doesn't work - you tired to use it before - and it didn't work then either.

Try to remember videotapes are not conclusive evidence either.
The dramatic rescue of Private Jessica Lynch was staged.
big sky brad
QUOTE(Marine @ Apr 29 2005, 08:25 PM)
We have numerous threads on this forum over the post four months which have throughly discredited Dahr Jamails integrity. 

You haven't discredited anything. You have regurgitated opinions that are highly doubtful based on unsubstantiated gossip put forth by some warmongering propaganda artists in the neocon Shrubbery administration.

You might as well just quote Jeff Gannon as your source because it is all coming out of the same sewer.
cardinal
QUOTE(big sky brad @ Apr 29 2005, 11:03 PM)
That link doesn't work - you tired to use it before - and it didn't work then either.

Try to remember videotapes are not conclusive evidence either.
The dramatic rescue of Private Jessica Lynch was staged.
*
Worked for me Brad
big sky brad
Sure, sure.
flydangler
QUOTE(cardinal @ Apr 30 2005, 12:32 AM)
Worked for me Brad
Me too! Methinks somebody needs some remedial training in mouse clicking, eh?
heart
Worked for me too. Brad, I know you can't type, but surely you CAN click and read. Why are you such a big fan of his anyway? You got some big money riding on the US losing?
Marine
United States Marine Corps
Press Release
Public Affairs Office
Multi-National Force-West


cepaowo@cemnf-wiraq.usmc.mil
Contact:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Release # 0428-05-0816

Funds to give Fallujah businesses a lift
April 27, 2005

CAMP FALLUJAH, Iraq -- Small stores and cafes are gradually returning to the now bustling streets here and soon 2,000 businesses owners will be able to join them.

The US Agency for International Development recently approved $250,000 for a project to pay for steel rollup doors for businesses with storefronts damaged in Operation Al Fajr.

These doors will allow business owners to secure their storefronts and protect their inventories.

“The project was funded to spur economic development by allowing business owners to open back up,” said Capt. Rudy Quiles, economic development officer, Civil Military Operations Center (CMOC), 5th Civil Affairs Group.

The Fallujah Urban Planning Board will determine which businesses will receive the new doors. The goal of the program is to help increase commercial activity, increase employment and beautify the city.

Currently, there is no census data to measure unemployment in the city. Informal surveys conducted at the CMOC of various groups range from 30 to 80 percent.

The following are unemployment estimates given by representatives from the Fallujah technocrat council:

· Teachers: 45 percent

· Doctors: 50 percent

· Lawyers: 80 percent

· Engineers: 30 percent

· Youth (16 to 22 years old): 90 percent

“More commerce will be created with the opening of 2,000 businesses,” said Quiles. “And this is in alignment with our economic development initiative of creating employment and flow of goods and service.”
Marine
QUOTE(big sky brad @ Apr 29 2005, 10:03 PM)
That link doesn't work - you tired to use it before - and it didn't work then either.

Try to remember videotapes are not conclusive evidence either.
The dramatic rescue of Private Jessica Lynch was staged.
*

It worked for me brad, you know everytime I've tried to load one of your music files I get all kinds of virus warnings popping up, suppose your computer may be ill?
shawneedaughter
"Before you start decrying the war so much, just consider that there are so many people who thank the US on a daily basis for getting rid of Saddam...."heart


Just consider that there are so many more people IN the US who are wondering why our soldiers must die for something based on a lie by our coward [p]resident. :yes:

We're also wondering 'What happened to Osama Bin Laden?' whistling.gif
Marine
QUOTE(big sky brad @ Apr 29 2005, 09:57 PM)
It's common knowledge clear around the world that Reagan gave WMD's to Hussein in the 80's, Tex.

Bush even continued to ship Hussein WMD's after the Persian Gulf War.
*

Well brad, if you had googled Iraq and poison gas you would have got over 636,000 hits. Admittedly, I didn't look at all of them but I did look at a good number representing the variety of opinions on the issue to see if your unsupported statement had any validity.

The story seems to evolve from the USA didn't mind Saddam having poison gas to the USA didn't mind Saddam using poison gas to the USA providing Saddam with poison gas.

The latter dated web sites actually accuse, as you do, of the USA providing weapons grade ready munitions for Saddam Hussien to use to gas babies with. They do have a problem though, the little evidence they do site leads to non-existent web sites and their links don't seem to work.

I also might add these sites seem to be of the wing nut variety, lots of hyperbole, inuendo, little documentation to prove up their wild allegations, you know, the type of sites you like to reference.
nnrecrut
QUOTE(Marine @ Apr 29 2005, 08:25 PM)
Your advice is a bit late Ace, I wrote him soon as it was suggested I should contact him. 

I also asked about if he was collaborating with Dahr Jamail on this story why his own paper has nothing in their archives on the story nor claims any association with the story.  I'm really surprised a real journalist would lend his name and credibility to Dahr Jamail. 

We have numerous threads on this forum over the post four months which have throughly discredited Dahr Jamails integrity.  So much has been posted here exposing Dahr Jamail spend a little time searching the forum,  I won't waste my time posting more about him because  posting more about Dahr Jamail would be extremely redundant.  It's almost as bad as the number of draft threads which have been started.
*


I hope you will share his response with us. If you email Dhar Jamail, I think you are very likely to get a response from him.

In my opinion, you have not successfully discredited him, but like you, I think it is a waste of time to discuss it since it is clear this is a disagreement that won't be cleared up anytime soon. However, I hope we discover that Jamail's claims about Fallujah are wrong, but right now I have serious doubts that most of his information is false.
Obviously, you want me to stop posting stories written by Jamail because you find them offensive or threatening to our troops. Personally, I think that is a mistake--this forum then becomes as controlled as our MSM. However, maybe it is better to post Jamail's articles and then discuss what is relevent and possibly truthful and what is not. Whether or not Jamail's articles are posted here does not mean that they are not read by others. Also, there are many of us who have loved ones in Iraq, we are all concerned about their safety, however, we all deal with this type of crisis in different ways. I read a great deal of info on Iraq (good and bad) and draw my own conclusions-for others, it is better to only read and know the positives.
nnrecrut
QUOTE(flydangler @ Apr 29 2005, 08:30 PM)
Methinks if you really wanted the truth you wouldn't keep pushing or trying to defend Dahr Jamail's "reports. If a story, like most of his, were true they wouldn't be so easy to refute now would they, eh?

Why do you and others keep pushing unfounded stories. 'Twould seem you're trying to discredit our troops on a wholesale basis without reason. Methinks you be awful quick to criticize those of us finding fault with these baseless or faulty stories, yet 'twould seem at times you've even admitted seeing the flaws in them yourself. Why? If the stories aren't true is there any reason you'd still want to keep them going, or even keep discussing them as if they're true?


*


I think we have discussed the Jamail credibility at nauseum, but your remark that I am discrediting our troops on a "wholesale basis without reason" is a uncalled for. Also, you misunderstood that I admitted seeing flaws in the stories. I think your are referring to the use of phosphorus in Fallujah. I wasnt saying that I found fault with Dahr Jamails article--I only meant to point out that the article was correct--and the burns and scent of gas reported were real--and phosphorus was used --not napalm. Jamail's blog usually consists of interviews with local Iraqis--he reports their stories and i find them interesting. If those he is interviewing are lying--then so be it.

Many of those interviewed by our MSM are lying about what they see in Iraq and elsewhere. It is baffling to me that you attack interviews by Jamail, yet accept interviews by MSM. Also, I am surprised you work so hard to attack me when I post Dahr Jamail reports. If you would look, you would notice that they are rarely read and almost no responses. The only time they get attention is when you call out the troops to make the postings front and center on this forum. One would think if you didnt want them read by others--you would let the posting sit and eventually if would fade away into the archives only read by a few.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2010 Invision Power Services, Inc.