THE COMPANY | SIX MONTHS IN RAMADI
Bloodied Marines Sound Off About Want of Armor and Men
By MICHAEL MOSS

Published: April 25, 2005


On May 29, 2004, a station wagon that Iraqi insurgents had packed with C-4 explosives blew up on a highway in Ramadi, killing four American marines who died for lack of a few inches of steel.

The four were returning to camp in an unarmored Humvee that their unit had rigged with scrap metal, but the makeshift shields rose only as high as their shoulders, photographs of the Humvee show, and the shrapnel from the bomb shot over the top.


Capt. Kelly D. Royer took photos of Humvees in which his men died. He was removed from command, accused of being "dictatorial."


"The steel was not high enough," said Staff Sgt. Jose S. Valerio, their motor transport chief, who along with the unit's commanding officers said the men would have lived had their vehicle been properly armored. "Most of the shrapnel wounds were to their heads."

Among those killed were Rafael Reynosa, a 28-year-old lance corporal from Santa Ana, Calif., whose wife was expecting twins, and Cody S. Calavan, a 19-year-old private first class from Lake Stevens, Wash., who had the Marine Corps motto, Semper Fidelis, tattooed across his back.

They were not the only losses for Company E during its six-month stint last year in Ramadi. In all, more than one-third of the unit's 185 troops were killed or wounded, the highest casualty rate of any company in the war, Marine Corps officials say.

In returning home, the leaders and Marine infantrymen have chosen to break an institutional code of silence and tell their story, one they say was punctuated not only by a lack of armor, but also by a shortage of men and planning that further hampered their efforts in battle, destroyed morale and ruined the careers of some of their fiercest warriors.

The saga of Company E, part of a lionized battalion nicknamed the Magnificent Bastards, is also one of fortitude and ingenuity. The marines, based at Camp Pendleton in southern California, had been asked to rid the provincial capital of one of the most persistent insurgencies, and in enduring 26 firefights, 90 mortar attacks and more than 90 homemade bombs, they shipped their dead home and powered on. Their tour has become legendary among other Marine units now serving in Iraq and facing some of the same problems.

"As marines, we are always taught that we do more with less," said Sgt. James S. King, a platoon sergeant who lost his left leg when he was blown out of the Humvee that Saturday afternoon last May. "And get the job done no matter what it takes."

The experiences of Company E's marines, pieced together through interviews at Camp Pendleton and by phone, company records and dozens of photographs taken by the marines, show they often did just that. The unit had less than half the troops who are now doing its job in Ramadi, and resorted to making dummy marines from cardboard cutouts and camouflage shirts to place in observation posts on the highway when it ran out of men. During one of its deadliest firefights, it came up short on both vehicles and troops. Marines who were stranded at their camp tried in vain to hot-wire a dump truck to help rescue their falling brothers. That day, 10 men in the unit died.

Sergeant Valerio and others had to scrounge for metal scraps to strengthen the Humvees they inherited from the National Guard, which occupied Ramadi before the marines arrived. Among other problems, the armor the marines slapped together included heavier doors that could not be latched, so they "chicken winged it" by holding them shut with their arms as they traveled.

"We were sitting out in the open, an easy target for everybody," Cpl. Toby G. Winn of Centerville, Tex., said of the shortages. "We complained about it every day, to anybody we could. They told us they were listening, but we didn't see it."

The company leaders say it is impossible to know how many lives may have been saved through better protection, since the insurgents became adept at overcoming improved defenses with more powerful weapons. Likewise, Pentagon officials say they do not know how many of the more than 1,500 American troops who have died in the war had insufficient protective gear.

Page 2

But while most of Company E's work in fighting insurgents was on foot, the biggest danger the men faced came in traveling to and from camp: 13 of the 21 men who were killed had been riding in Humvees that failed to deflect bullets or bombs.

Toward the end of their tour when half of their fleet had become factory-armored, the armor's worth became starkly clear. A car bomb that the unit's commander, Capt. Kelly D. Royer, said was at least as powerful as the one on May 29 showered a fully armored Humvee with shrapnel, photographs show. The marines inside were left nearly unscathed.

Captain Royer, from Orangevale, Calif., would not accompany his troops home. He was removed from his post six days before they began leaving Ramadi, accused by his superiors of being dictatorial, records show. His defenders counter that his commanding style was a necessary response to the extreme circumstances of his unit's deployment.

Company E's experiences still resonate today both in Iraq, where two more marines were killed last week in Ramadi by the continuing insurgency, and in Washington, where Congress is still struggling to solve the Humvee problem. Just on Thursday, the Senate voted to spend an extra $213 million to buy more fully armored Humvees. The Army's procurement system, which also supplies the Marines, has come under fierce criticism for underperforming in the war, and to this day it has only one small contractor in Ohio armoring new Humvees.

Marine Corps officials disclosed last month in Congressional hearings that they were now going their own way and had undertaken a crash program to equip all of their more than 2,800 Humvees in Iraq with stronger armor. The effort went into production in November and is to be completed at the end of this year.

Defense Department officials acknowledged that Company E lacked enough equipment and men, but said that those were problems experienced by many troops when the insurgency intensified last year, and that vigorous efforts had been made to improve their circumstances.

Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis of Richland, Wash., who commanded the First Marine Division to which Company E belongs, said he had taken every possible step to support Company E. He added that they had received more factory-armored Humvees than any other unit in Iraq.

"We could not encase men in sufficiently strong armor to deny any enemy success," General Mattis said. "The tragic loss of our men does not necessarily indicate failure - it is war."

Trouble From the Start

Company E's troubles began at Camp Pendleton when, just seven days before the unit left for Iraq, it lost its first commander. The captain who led them through training was relieved for reasons his supervisor declined to discuss.

"That was like losing your quarterback on game day," said First Sgt. Curtis E. Winfree.

In Kuwait, where the unit stopped over, an 18-year-old private committed suicide in a chapel. Then en route to Ramadi, they lost the few armored plates they had earmarked for their vehicles when the steel was borrowed by another unit that failed to return it. Company E tracked the steel down and took it back.

Even at that, the armor was mostly just scrap and thin, and they needed more for the unarmored Humvees they inherited from the Florida National Guard.

"It was pitiful," said Capt. Chae J. Han, a member of a Pentagon team that surveyed the Marine camps in Iraq last year to document their condition. "Everything was just slapped on armor, just homemade, not armor that was given to us through the normal logistical system."

The report they produced was classified, but Captain Royer, who took over command of the unit, and other Company E marines say they had to build barriers at the camp - a former junkyard - to block suicide drivers, improve the fencing and move the toilets under a thick roof to avoid the insurgent shelling.

Even some maps they were given to plan raids were several years old, showing farmland where in fact there were homes, said a company intelligence expert, Cpl. Charles V. Lauersdorf, who later went to work for the Defense Intelligence Agency. There, he discovered up-to-date imagery that had not found its way to the front lines.

Page 3

Ramadi had been quiet under the National Guard, but the Marines had orders to root out an insurgency that was using the provincial capital as a way station to Falluja and Baghdad, said Lt. Col. Paul J. Kennedy, who oversaw Company E as the commander of its Second Battalion, Fourth Marine Regiment.

Before the company's first month was up, Lance Cpl. William J. Wiscowiche of Victorville, Calif., lay dead on the main highway as its first casualty. The Marine Corps issued a statement saying only that he had died in action. But for Company E, it was the first reality check on the constraints that would mark their tour.

Sweeping for Bombs

A British officer had taught them to sweep the roads for bombs by boxing off sections and fanning out troops into adjoining neighborhoods in hopes of scaring away insurgents poised to set off the bombs. "We didn't have the time to do that," said Sgt. Charles R. Sheldon of Solana Beach, Calif. "We had to clear this long section of highway, and it usually took us all day."

Now and then a Humvee would speed through equipped with an electronic device intended to block detonation of makeshift bombs. The battalion, which had five companies in its fold, had only a handful of the devices, Colonel Kennedy said.

Company E had none, even though sweeping roads for bombs was one of its main duties. So many of the marines, like Corporal Wiscowiche, had to rely on their eyes. On duty on March 30, 2004, the 20-year-old lance corporal did not spot the telltale three-inch wires sticking out of the dust until he was a few feet away, the company's leaders say. He died when the bomb was set off.

"We had just left the base," Corporal Winn said. "He was walking in the middle of the road, and all I remember is hearing a big explosion and seeing a big cloud of smoke."

The endless task of walking the highways for newly hidden I.E.D.'s, or improvised explosive devices, "was nerve wracking," Corporal Winn said, and the company began using binoculars and the scopes on their rifles to spot the bombs after Corporal Wiscowiche was killed.

"Halfway through the deployment marines began getting good at spotting little things," Sergeant Sheldon added. "We had marines riding down the road at 60 miles an hour, and they would spot a copper filament sticking out of a block of cement."

General Mattis said troops in the area now have hundreds of the electronic devices to foil the I.E.D.'s.

In parceling out Ramadi, the Marine Corps leadership gave Company E more than 10 square miles to control, far more than the battalion's other companies. Captain Royer said he had informally asked for an extra platoon, or 44 marines, and had been told the battalion was seeking an extra company. The battalion's operations officer, Maj. John D. Harrill, said the battalion had received sporadic assistance from the Army and had given Company E extra help. General Mattis says he could not pull marines from another part of Iraq because "there were tough fights going on everywhere."

Colonel Kennedy said Company E's area was less dense, but the pressure it put on the marines came to a boil on April 6, 2004, when the company had to empty its camp - leaving the cooks to guard the gates - to deal with three firefights.

Ten of its troops were killed that day, including eight who died when the Humvee they were riding in was ambushed en route to assist other marines under fire. That Humvee lacked even the improvised steel on the back where most of the marines sat, Company E leaders say.

"All I saw was sandbags, blood and dead bodies," Sergeant Valerio said. "There was no protection in the back."

Captain Royer said more armor would not have even helped. The insurgents had a .50-caliber machine gun that punched huge holes through its windshield. Only a heavier combat vehicle could have withstood the barrage, he said, but the unit had none. Defense Department officials have said they favored Humvees over tanks in Iraq because they were less imposing to civilians.

The Humvee that trailed behind that day, which did have improvised armor, was hit with less powerful munitions, and the marines riding in it survived by hunkering down. "The rounds were pinging," Sergeant Sheldon said. "Then in a lull they returned fire and got out."

Captain Royer said that he photographed the Humvees in which his men died to show to any official who asked about the condition of their armor, but that no one ever did.

Page 4

Sergeant Valerio redoubled his effort to fortify the Humvees by begging other branches of the military for scraps. "How am I going to leave those kids out there in those Humvees," he recalled asking himself.

The company of 185 marines had only two Humvees and three trucks when it arrived, so just getting them into his shop was a logistical chore, Sergeant Valerio said. He also worried that the steel could come loose in a blast and become deadly shrapnel.

For the gunners who rode atop, Sergeant Valerio stitched together bulletproof shoulder pads into chaps to protect their legs.

"That guy was amazing," First Sgt. Bernard Coleman said. "He was under a vehicle when a mortar landed, and he caught some in the leg. When the mortar fire stopped, he went right back to work."

A Captain's Fate

Lt. Sean J. Schickel remembers Captain Royer asking a high-ranking Marine Corps visitor whether the company would be getting more factory-armored Humvees. The official said they had not been requested and that there were production constraints, Lieutenant Schickel said.

Recalls Captain Royer: "I'm thinking we have our most precious resource engaged in combat, and certainly the wealth of our nation can provide young, selfless men with what they need to accomplish their mission. That's an erudite way of putting it. I have a much more guttural response that I won't give you."

Captain Royer was later relieved of command. General Mattis and Colonel Kennedy declined to discuss the matter. His first fitness report, issued on May 31, 2004, after the company's deadliest firefights, concluded, "He has single-handedly reshaped a company in sore need of a leader; succeeded in forming a cohesive fighting force that is battle-tested and worthy."

The second, on Sept. 1, 2004, gave him opposite marks for leadership. "He has been described on numerous occasions as 'dictatorial,' " it said. "There is no morale or motivation in his marines." His defenders say he drove his troops as hard as he drove himself, but was wrongly blamed for problems like armor. "Captain Royer was a decent man that was used for a dirty job and thrown away by his chain of command," Sergeant Sheldon said.

Today, Captain Royer is at Camp Pendleton contesting his fitness report, which could force him to retire. Company E is awaiting deployment to Okinawa, Japan. Some members have moved to other units, or are leaving the Marines altogether.

"I'm checking out," Corporal Winn said. "When I started, I wanted to make it my career. I've had enough."

Link -
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/25/internat...ted=1&th&emc=th

a world gone mad

- perry

15th MEU (SOC) returns to ESG after tour in Baghdad
by marinegrunt0311 on Monday 18 April 2005
http://www.thesquadbay.com/content.php?article.953
THE SQUADBAY, Run By Marines And FMF Corpsmen

ABOARD USS BONHOMME RICHARD (April 17, 2005) -- The 15th Marine Expeditionary Unit (Special Operations Capable) returned to Expeditionary Strike Group 5 ships after conducting a month of aggressive security and stabilization operations in southern Baghdad, Iraq, to disrupt insurgent operations.

The journey to Baghdad began after the MEU completed a month of sustainment training at Kuwait’s Udairi Range.

“Udairi allowed us to bring our air, artillery, mortars, direct fire weapons all together to get that synergy of combined arms,” according to Maj. Robert Salasko, 37, assistant operations officer and native of Princeton, N.J.


Salasko said that while in Kuwait, the MEU reinforced specific training needed to conduct combat operations in Iraq. “(The training at Udairi Range) afforded us a good opportunity to focus on the small unit level. The ACE was able to get a lot of guys up on their qualifications. The BLT was able to get their squad leaders and team leaders up to a level of expertise, proficiency and confidence before going north.”

Once the training was complete, the MEU spent about a week planning the movement to Forward Operating Base Falcon. It took only six days to move more than 2,000 Marines using a combination of tractor trailers, convoys and strategic airlift.

“Usually units have months to plan this (type of movement) because it’s a big deal. We’re talking receiving, staging, onward movement and integration of a whole force. We had seven days and by MEU (SOC) standards that’s a lot but most of these units that come up here are planning a year out,” Salasko said.

The MEU’s Aviation Combat Element, Marine Medium Helicopter Squadron 165 (REIN), conducted missions from Al Taqaddum Airbase and Al Asad Airfield, both located west of Baghdad. Being just a short flight from the FOB allowed the squadron to support many of the MEU’s Close Air Support or CAS missions.

The task given to 15th MEU was to “reinforce or enhance the security and stability operations that are being conducted by Multi-National Division Baghdad,” Salasko said. They conducted these operations in an area that had been left unmonitored for approximately six weeks, so there was an increase in insurgent activity prior to the MEU’s arrival.

The MEU’s area of operations, 350 square kilometers of mostly rural farmland, was just a few kilometers from FOB Falcon which allowed for quick resupply missions and a variety fire support from both helicopter assets and artillery capable of engaging enemy forces within minutes of a request.

While conducting their mission, the MEU fell under the Army’s 256th Brigade Combat Team which is part of 3rd Infantry Division. 256th BCT provided guidance and direction for the MEU while they occupied their assigned AO.

Before jumping into the fight, key leaders were shown the AO in armored humvees by Army soldiers from 256th BCT to learn the terrain and identify locations with the majority of insurgent activity.

One of the insurgent’s most popular weapons remains improvised explosive devices, which continue to threaten the safety of service members conducting SASO missions. Marines and soldiers were also continually threatened by small-arms, rocket and mortar fire.

“We analyzed the enemy and what we saw was that their center of gravity was their IED capability. That’s where they were honing all their success,” Salasko said. However, their vulnerability was that they needed to be present to detonate the device.

To combat the IED threats, Marines from Battalion Landing Team 1/1’s A, B and C companies went to the field for approximately ten days each to conduct foot patrols through rural farming areas and specifically near major roads. On patrols, they conducted vehicle check points and house searches to look for explosives, unexploded military munitions and anything that can be used to make an IED.

Each of the three companies found different amounts of explosives and reported their finds to explosive ordnance disposal technicians who destroyed the items. The companies also detained numerous suspected insurgents for follow on questioning.

In addition to the line companies, BLT 1/1’s weapons company formed a Mobile Assault Platoon that teamed up with the Force Reconnaissance Platoon to conduct multiple direct-action raids on specific targets to disrupt insurgent activities and detain individuals for questioning.

The 15th MEU’s actions in the AO “totally reduced their effectiveness and greatly diminished their efforts to emplace them and totally disrupt their operations,” he added.

Salasko said that while the MEU wasn’t in Baghdad as long as other units, they definitely made an impact. Insurgents who had migrated to the area that wasn’t being patrolled were quickly removed by the aggressive actions of the 15th MEU.

“The area was definitely presenting itself as a ‘hardened place’ for the enemy,” said Salasko. “With us coming in and having this dynamic concept of ops … we presented this area that was dominated by Marines.”

In mid-April, the MEU withdrew their forces from Baghdad and turned the area over to the Army’s 3rd Armored Calvary Regiment that will assume all of the MEUs battle space.

This was the second combat tour in Iraq for the 15th MEU, which came just two years after their first visit to the country. In March 2003, the 15th MEU participated in the initial assault into Iraq securing the port facility at Umm Qasr and later pushing into the city of An Nasiriyah to secure it for follow-on forces.

26th MEU enters Red Sea through Suez by marinegrunt0311 on Wednesday 27 April 2005
http://www.thesquadbay.com/content.php?article.953
THE SQUADBAY, Run By Marines And FMF Corpsmen


The Camp Lejeune, N.C.-based 26th Marine Expeditionary unit passed through the Suez Canal April 22 aboard the ships of the Kearsarge Expeditionary Strike Group, entering U.S. Central Command’s area of operations.

“This is an AOR that is wrought with uncertainty and a full range of challenges and missions that this Marine Expeditionary Unit is prepared for,” said Col. Thomas F. Qualls, the MEU’s commanding officer.

According to a Marine Corps press release, the MEU is currently in “theater reserve” status and may be called upon to support of operations throughout CentCom.

In the meantime, the MEU continues to train with allies and is expected to stay under CentCom’s tactical control until returning to Lejeune in about four months.

The MEU, which deployed on March 27, is sailing aboard the amphibious assault ship Kearsarge, dock landing ship Ashland and amphibious transport dock Ponce. The MEU includes Battalion Landing Team 2nd Battalion, 8th Marine Regiment.

Would like to post this web page in honor of my fallen Bro' who was a Combat Marine.

Mr. Marine he had the same Combat Action Badge that you have on your avator.

I know you feel THIS WAY about Vietnam Veterans. Mr. Marine some do not have the stamina and strength that you possess. You have to excuse some Veterans Mr. Marine they are not as strong and in control of their mind like you are.

This is the web page I would like to dedicate to my fallen Bro', a Combat Marine.

"Dirty John"

Published on Monday, April 25, 2005 by the New York Times
Marines From Iraq Sound Off About Want of Armor and Men
by Michael Moss

On May 29, 2004, a station wagon that Iraqi insurgents had packed with C-4 explosives blew up on a highway in Ramadi, killing four American marines who died for lack of a few inches of steel.

The four were returning to camp in an unarmored Humvee that their unit had rigged with scrap metal, but the makeshift shields rose only as high as their shoulders, photographs of the Humvee show, and the shrapnel from the bomb shot over the top.

"The steel was not high enough," said Staff Sgt. Jose S. Valerio, their motor transport chief, who along with the unit's commanding officers said the men would have lived had their vehicle been properly armored. "Most of the shrapnel wounds were to their heads."

Among those killed were Rafael Reynosa, a 28-year-old lance corporal from Santa Ana, Calif., whose wife was expecting twins, and Cody S. Calavan, a 19-year-old private first class from Lake Stevens, Wash., who had the Marine Corps motto, Semper Fidelis, tattooed across his back.

They were not the only losses for Company E during its six-month stint last year in Ramadi. In all, more than one-third of the unit's 185 troops were killed or wounded, the highest casualty rate of any company in the war, Marine Corps officials say.

In returning home, the leaders and Marine infantrymen have chosen to break an institutional code of silence and tell their story, one they say was punctuated not only by a lack of armor, but also by a shortage of men and planning that further hampered their efforts in battle, destroyed morale and ruined the careers of some of their fiercest warriors.

The saga of Company E, part of a lionized battalion nicknamed the Magnificent Bastards, is also one of fortitude and ingenuity. The marines, based at Camp Pendleton in southern California, had been asked to rid the provincial capital of one of the most persistent insurgencies, and in enduring 26 firefights, 90 mortar attacks and more than 90 homemade bombs, they shipped their dead home and powered on. Their tour has become legendary among other Marine units now serving in Iraq and facing some of the same problems.

"As marines, we are always taught that we do more with less," said Sgt. James S. King, a platoon sergeant who lost his left leg when he was blown out of the Humvee that Saturday afternoon last May. "And get the job done no matter what it takes."

The experiences of Company E's marines, pieced together through interviews at Camp Pendleton and by phone, company records and dozens of photographs taken by the marines, show they often did just that. The unit had less than half the troops who are now doing its job in Ramadi, and resorted to making dummy marines from cardboard cutouts and camouflage shirts to place in observation posts on the highway when it ran out of men. During one of its deadliest firefights, it came up short on both vehicles and troops. Marines who were stranded at their camp tried in vain to hot-wire a dump truck to help rescue their falling brothers. That day, 10 men in the unit died.

Sergeant Valerio and others had to scrounge for metal scraps to strengthen the Humvees they inherited from the National Guard, which occupied Ramadi before the marines arrived. Among other problems, the armor the marines slapped together included heavier doors that could not be latched, so they "chicken winged it" by holding them shut with their arms as they traveled.

"We were sitting out in the open, an easy target for everybody," Cpl. Toby G. Winn of Centerville, Tex., said of the shortages. "We complained about it every day, to anybody we could. They told us they were listening, but we didn't see it."

The company leaders say it is impossible to know how many lives may have been saved through better protection, since the insurgents became adept at overcoming improved defenses with more powerful weapons. Likewise, Pentagon officials say they do not know how many of the more than 1,500 American troops who have died in the war had insufficient protective gear.

But while most of Company E's work in fighting insurgents was on foot, the biggest danger the men faced came in traveling to and from camp: 13 of the 21 men who were killed had been riding in Humvees that failed to deflect bullets or bombs.

Toward the end of their tour when half of their fleet had become factory-armored, the armor's worth became starkly clear. A car bomb that the unit's commander, Capt. Kelly D. Royer, said was at least as powerful as the one on May 29 showered a fully armored Humvee with shrapnel, photographs show. The marines inside were left nearly unscathed.

Captain Royer, from Orangevale, Calif., would not accompany his troops home. He was removed from his post six days before they began leaving Ramadi, accused by his superiors of being dictatorial, records show. His defenders counter that his commanding style was a necessary response to the extreme circumstances of his unit's deployment.

Company E's experiences still resonate today both in Iraq, where two more marines were killed last week in Ramadi by the continuing insurgency, and in Washington, where Congress is still struggling to solve the Humvee problem. Just on Thursday, the Senate voted to spend an extra $213 million to buy more fully armored Humvees. The Army's procurement system, which also supplies the Marines, has come under fierce criticism for underperforming in the war, and to this day it has only one small contractor in Ohio armoring new Humvees.

Marine Corps officials disclosed last month in Congressional hearings that they were now going their own way and had undertaken a crash program to equip all of their more than 2,800 Humvees in Iraq with stronger armor. The effort went into production in November and is to be completed at the end of this year.

Defense Department officials acknowledged that Company E lacked enough equipment and men, but said that those were problems experienced by many troops when the insurgency intensified last year, and that vigorous efforts had been made to improve their circumstances.

Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis of Richland, Wash., who commanded the First Marine Division to which Company E belongs, said he had taken every possible step to support Company E. He added that they had received more factory-armored Humvees than any other unit in Iraq.

"We could not encase men in sufficiently strong armor to deny any enemy success," General Mattis said. "The tragic loss of our men does not necessarily indicate failure - it is war."

Trouble From the Start

Company E's troubles began at Camp Pendleton when, just seven days before the unit left for Iraq, it lost its first commander. The captain who led them through training was relieved for reasons his supervisor declined to discuss.

"That was like losing your quarterback on game day," said First Sgt. Curtis E. Winfree.

In Kuwait, where the unit stopped over, an 18-year-old private committed suicide in a chapel. Then en route to Ramadi, they lost the few armored plates they had earmarked for their vehicles when the steel was borrowed by another unit that failed to return it. Company E tracked the steel down and took it back.

Even at that, the armor was mostly just scrap and thin, and they needed more for the unarmored Humvees they inherited from the Florida National Guard.

"It was pitiful," said Capt. Chae J. Han, a member of a Pentagon team that surveyed the Marine camps in Iraq last year to document their condition. "Everything was just slapped on armor, just homemade, not armor that was given to us through the normal logistical system."

The report they produced was classified, but Captain Royer, who took over command of the unit, and other Company E marines say they had to build barriers at the camp - a former junkyard - to block suicide drivers, improve the fencing and move the toilets under a thick roof to avoid the insurgent shelling.

Even some maps they were given to plan raids were several years old, showing farmland where in fact there were homes, said a company intelligence expert, Cpl. Charles V. Lauersdorf, who later went to work for the Defense Intelligence Agency. There, he discovered up-to-date imagery that had not found its way to the front lines.

Ramadi had been quiet under the National Guard, but the Marines had orders to root out an insurgency that was using the provincial capital as a way station to Falluja and Baghdad, said Lt. Col. Paul J. Kennedy, who oversaw Company E as the commander of its Second Battalion, Fourth Marine Regiment.

Before the company's first month was up, Lance Cpl. William J. Wiscowiche of Victorville, Calif., lay dead on the main highway as its first casualty. The Marine Corps issued a statement saying only that he had died in action. But for Company E, it was the first reality check on the constraints that would mark their tour.

Sweeping for Bombs

A British officer had taught them to sweep the roads for bombs by boxing off sections and fanning out troops into adjoining neighborhoods in hopes of scaring away insurgents poised to set off the bombs. "We didn't have the time to do that," said Sgt. Charles R. Sheldon of Solana Beach, Calif. "We had to clear this long section of highway, and it usually took us all day."

Now and then a Humvee would speed through equipped with an electronic device intended to block detonation of makeshift bombs. The battalion, which had five companies in its fold, had only a handful of the devices, Colonel Kennedy said.

Company E had none, even though sweeping roads for bombs was one of its main duties. So many of the marines, like Corporal Wiscowiche, had to rely on their eyes. On duty on March 30, 2004, the 20-year-old lance corporal did not spot the telltale three-inch wires sticking out of the dust until he was a few feet away, the company's leaders say. He died when the bomb was set off.

"We had just left the base," Corporal Winn said. "He was walking in the middle of the road, and all I remember is hearing a big explosion and seeing a big cloud of smoke."

The endless task of walking the highways for newly hidden I.E.D.'s, or improvised explosive devices, "was nerve wracking," Corporal Winn said, and the company began using binoculars and the scopes on their rifles to spot the bombs after Corporal Wiscowiche was killed.

"Halfway through the deployment marines began getting good at spotting little things," Sergeant Sheldon added. "We had marines riding down the road at 60 miles an hour, and they would spot a copper filament sticking out of a block of cement."

General Mattis said troops in the area now have hundreds of the electronic devices to foil the I.E.D.'s.

In parceling out Ramadi, the Marine Corps leadership gave Company E more than 10 square miles to control, far more than the battalion's other companies. Captain Royer said he had informally asked for an extra platoon, or 44 marines, and had been told the battalion was seeking an extra company. The battalion's operations officer, Maj. John D. Harrill, said the battalion had received sporadic assistance from the Army and had given Company E extra help. General Mattis says he could not pull marines from another part of Iraq because "there were tough fights going on everywhere."

Colonel Kennedy said Company E's area was less dense, but the pressure it put on the marines came to a boil on April 6, 2004, when the company had to empty its camp - leaving the cooks to guard the gates - to deal with three firefights.

Ten of its troops were killed that day, including eight who died when the Humvee they were riding in was ambushed en route to assist other marines under fire. That Humvee lacked even the improvised steel on the back where most of the marines sat, Company E leaders say.

"All I saw was sandbags, blood and dead bodies," Sergeant Valerio said. "There was no protection in the back."

Captain Royer said more armor would not have even helped. The insurgents had a .50-caliber machine gun that punched huge holes through its windshield. Only a heavier combat vehicle could have withstood the barrage, he said, but the unit had none. Defense Department officials have said they favored Humvees over tanks in Iraq because they were less imposing to civilians.

The Humvee that trailed behind that day, which did have improvised armor, was hit with less powerful munitions, and the marines riding in it survived by hunkering down. "The rounds were pinging," Sergeant Sheldon said. "Then in a lull they returned fire and got out."

Captain Royer said that he photographed the Humvees in which his men died to show to any official who asked about the condition of their armor, but that no one ever did.

Sergeant Valerio redoubled his effort to fortify the Humvees by begging other branches of the military for scraps. "How am I going to leave those kids out there in those Humvees," he recalled asking himself.

The company of 185 marines had only two Humvees and three trucks when it arrived, so just getting them into his shop was a logistical chore, Sergeant Valerio said. He also worried that the steel could come loose in a blast and become deadly shrapnel.

For the gunners who rode atop, Sergeant Valerio stitched together bulletproof shoulder pads into chaps to protect their legs.

"That guy was amazing," First Sgt. Bernard Coleman said. "He was under a vehicle when a mortar landed, and he caught some in the leg. When the mortar fire stopped, he went right back to work."

A Captain's Fate

Lt. Sean J. Schickel remembers Captain Royer asking a high-ranking Marine Corps visitor whether the company would be getting more factory-armored Humvees. The official said they had not been requested and that there were production constraints, Lieutenant Schickel said.

Recalls Captain Royer: "I'm thinking we have our most precious resource engaged in combat, and certainly the wealth of our nation can provide young, selfless men with what they need to accomplish their mission. That's an erudite way of putting it. I have a much more guttural response that I won't give you."

Captain Royer was later relieved of command. General Mattis and Colonel Kennedy declined to discuss the matter. His first fitness report, issued on May 31, 2004, after the company's deadliest firefights, concluded, "He has single-handedly reshaped a company in sore need of a leader; succeeded in forming a cohesive fighting force that is battle-tested and worthy."

The second, on Sept. 1, 2004, gave him opposite marks for leadership. "He has been described on numerous occasions as 'dictatorial,' " it said. "There is no morale or motivation in his marines." His defenders say he drove his troops as hard as he drove himself, but was wrongly blamed for problems like armor. "Captain Royer was a decent man that was used for a dirty job and thrown away by his chain of command," Sergeant Sheldon said.

Today, Captain Royer is at Camp Pendleton contesting his fitness report, which could force him to retire. Company E is awaiting deployment to Okinawa, Japan. Some members have moved to other units, or are leaving the Marines altogether.

"I'm checking out," Corporal Winn said. "When I started, I wanted to make it my career. I've had enough."

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0425-07.htm

(thanks Big Sky for letting me post in this Marine Thread - appreciate it)

Sure, Bammo, you can post in any of these threads. You're a bona fide veteran, after all. You've earned that right. You know my name, I know yours. I respect you, you respect me.

And I've got a question for you, as well.

This guy on the right in the picture below has a shoulder patch on his left shoulder.
Do you recoginize it? I'll bet you do, seeing as how you fought with these men in Vietnam.



I blanked out the faces of these 2 men because I told the man on the left, a friend of mine, that I would not put a picture of his on-line and cause him any trouble in real life. I think you already know how I feel about people who post pictures of other people that ain't their right to put on-line.


Semper Fi, Bammo.

Hang tough.

It's a shame John didn't get help Tom.

Don't know the full story so no comment on what screwed John up. I knew people who went off to the Navy hospital and came back OK and some who went and we never seen them again. If I knew what screwed up peoples heads I wouldn't be living for the next pension check to come in.

Big Sky, Ist Cav Division, D Troop 2nd of the 8th Cav - that pic was taken in or near An Khe Bro' - thanks for letting this doggie post in the Marine section. LOL now the 2nd of the 7th - La Drang Valley - most noted for-- We were Soldiers Once - was Custers ol' outfit!

Will do my best to keep all posts Semper Fidelis like Bro' - Like I said Marines got a ribbon - Combat Action Badge - Mr. Marine displays one in his Avator, proudly as all can see.

The Infantry in the Army got a CIB (Combat Infantry Badge)

And if we were Airborne qualified in the Army we got to wear these Bro' -

Enough with the Army crap--this is a Marine Thread! Hang Tough and Thanks Big Sky

Thanks for the words on ol' Dirty John Mr. Marine. Dirty John did 1 3/4 tours ( Marines did 13 month tours) as a Forward Observer.

Dirty John was wounded three times, the last one was the knee and calf, he went back to the states after hospitalization - Japan - Some Marine Hospital in California, then Walter Reed.

Dirty John was a Marine first, a biker second, and a active member of the VVAW (Vietnam Veterans Against the War)

He marched on DC, plus many more places with the VVAW and was there For JK and Winter Soldier.

Dirty John was a Southey from Boston, John Coughlin - Irish as Guiness Stout!

Thanks again Mr. Marine for the fine words about a true Marine- Dirty John - by the way he was buried in his uniform - not his Blues--never owned any - the Greens. To my surprise Dirty John was a Sarge!

As far as help Mr. Marine, Dirty John was in more VAMC'S in-patient for more than 5 years off and on when I met him in the mid 80's. He did get help Mr. Marine, but they did not help him enough.

Another write off for Uncle Sammy!

Yeah Tom, Here's the one with class

I thought you said you was a leg Tom.

Big Sky, is the dude on the right a Captain? The one on the left Bro' looks awful familiar - da_n!l

Bro' is he a teacher now of some kind? If so he always wanted to be a history teachor of some kind, teach about war maybe.

Was he active in the VVAW? Got me wondering now Bro'! If this is the same dude he teaches World War II and Vietnam now out west somewhere - maybe Cal. -- not sure. If this is the dude I am thinkin' of - he was pro Kerry - Vietnam Vet for Kerry, very anti "SHRUB" and his fiasco. Not sure Bro, but could be!

Did one of those dudes have a Special Forces patch on his right shoulder? That was the last unit that that he was in before going to the 1st Cav. You wear your active Div. patch on the left the other div. patch on the right - this dude was a green Beenie - Captain --da_n--Martin - Manny - da_n - Mike was it Mike - Capt. Mike or Captain Mick --go with Mike - Special Forces - got to be Captain Mike!


Those wings on his right chest are Vietnamese Jump Wings Big Sky. Wonder if this is the same dude. Did this Dude serve as an advisor with a ARVN (S. Vietnamese) Ranger outfit?

This is just a hunch Big Sky-- Seen a lot of Dudes in the Nam. Wish I could see the faces. LOL Hey let me know if I am close!

Those two had beans of steel, Bro' - if they are the ones I am rappin' about!

Got me wondering now Big Sky! Hang Tough~ (That will be with me all night long Big Sky)

Seen a lot of Force Recons (Marine) with those Jump Wings Mr. Marine. Worked with them from time to time .

Might as well say I was a leg , all I did was hump the ruck! MOS - 11B20P Airborne Infantry --same same as a leg over there--LOL We all did the same sweat, dig and hump!

Glad we didn't jump --that would of been a disaster in the Ashau.

Only ones that did a jump in Nam --besides the ARVN Rangers was the Herd - 173rd Airborne -- think that was it for combat jumps in Nam.

Recon is a different from what hollywood potrays it, I mean they are good at what they do but they don't go out looking for a fight the way they show it in the movies.

That Marine Recon movie Heartbreak Ridge was bs, if Recon got in a firefight it meant someone screwed up. Same way in ANGLICO, if we got in a firefight someone had screwed up.

The closest I was ever being deep in a firefight was when we jumped in Grenada. We jump from so low the AAA the Cubans set up on the hills around the airfield couldn't depress enough to shoot at us, elsewise there would have been beaucoup dead paratroopers. We still got small arms fire from the airfield but that don't pucker the poot chute like AAA does.

Take care Tom.

I hear you Marine, Forced Recon in the Corp was similar to Long Range Recon Patrol (LRRP) in the Army.

Usually 6 man teams, go out for positions and info--# of enemy, hardware they are humping, etc. - report back on the Pri_K 25 and get back to the LZ.

Did not work out that way all the time as you know, that there could get hairy, but most of the time 75%-80% you made it to the LZ and on the chopper and out.

Now in the Corp was Force Recon the elite? Have no clue on that. In the Army everbody thought the Green Beanies were the elite - they were good from what I seen, but the Special Operations Group (SOG) and Military Advisors that lived with the Vietnamese in the Vills - had big ol' beans! They were not all Green Beanies like everyone thought.

Marines that lived in the vills with the Vietnamese - alone as well - what were they called - Kack --something like that. Not my bag Marine, sorry! LOL

This Marine was ANGLICO, CMH recipient Major Stephen W. Pless who lived through nearly 800 Helicopter Combat missions in Vietnam - da_n. Get this - Pless was killed, 7/20/69, when his motorcycle flew off an open drawbridge into Santa Rosa Sound which divides Pensacola from Pensacola Beach, Florida.

A Biker as well - What a way to go-- !

Hang Tough ~

ANGLICO did the same work and got the same training as Force Recon, the difference is ANGLICO humps, as well as a regular load, about 120 pounds of comm equipment per man every where we went so ANGLICO was always too tired out from dragging all that chit around to brag about it.

There is another Marine on the board who in all likelyhood is going to end up an ANGLICAN, SSGT Noonana usually posts in the 2nd amendment thread, he's in AO school at Fort Sill, not to many opportunities for an AO outside of ANGLICO.

Major Pless was an AO but I think he got the CMH while working in aviation, flying a dust off I think.

Sir, you're right as rain.

This photograph was taken right outside of 2/8's HQ hootch in An Khe.

Thanks to all of you for your service to our country.

I wanted to make certain that everyone understands: we don't put restrictions on posting in this forum. Meaning, you don't have to be a veteran to post here; veterans' issues affect us all (many of us have military members or veterans in our families, after all).

That's my ... carry on!

Damn! You're right on the money! They're both Captains! I'll send you the name of my friend, the Captain on the left, in a PM so the freepers that lurk here won't find out who he is and send him hate mail.

Sir, I am very impressed. Your knowledge of the Vietnam War is very extensive. It blows my mind.

And you're totally correct, you may even know this guy, or at least walked the same paths in Nam. The man on the left became a professor of history at a California college teaching both WWII and Vietnam history. And you're right that he was an avid Kerry supporter like you, ghostgovt, and I. He was totally against the Iraq War, from the get-go. He knew it was a big mistake because he had already learned the "Vietnam lesson" because he had been there, done that. Now, he's at college teaching students why Bush never learned that lesson.


And you're right again about him serving as an advisor with the ARVN in a SF outfit. I had never seen Silver Wings displayed above the right pocket like that, so I had to ask him what that badge was. I had never even seen one like it before.

Here's what he told me about that badge -
The silver wings on my right chest in the last photo are Vietnamese parachute wings, which I was awarded while serving with a Vietnamese Airborne Ranger unit. You can wear one foreign badge on the right chest, and you always wear your host country's badge if you have one.

Thanks for the update Sandra. Your always on top of things!

Got a question Sandra for you. Do you know a dude (Irish Fella) named O'Sullivan first name M. said he had something to do with CGCS.

Just got an E Mail from him asking some questions about CGCS, hey never know - maybe this fella will drop in for a visit. to see whats going down. You take care Sandra.

Always a pleasure!!

Da_n Big Sky very small world indeed. Both good officers with the Cav.

The Capt. is teaching at a college in Cal. - History as well. Good for him, he takes no sheet and tells it like it is.

As you can see on his JK support and anti "SHRUB" fiasco. Bet he even tells those college students to avoid the military - your only neocon cannon fodder.

Tell him you know "Bammo" from the East Coast - I'll send you my E Mail addy and you can forward it his way.

Will be good to here from that man again. Very small world indeed Bro' - Hang Tough ~

You know Bro' I might still have his e mail during the Prez campaign for Vietnam Veterans for Kerry. Hope I can find it! Got a few stories about whats going down here and elsewhere Big Sky.

Ditto what Sandra said. Sorry, I'm not Mr. Marine, and no, I've never served in the Armed Forces, and as such, normally leave these discussions to those who have; they have the right and knowledge to comment on them that I generally lack.

I am, however, disgusted at the way the Commander-In-Thief has used the military and thrown them away. "Forward he cried, from the rear, and the front rank died." This is what we should expect from a man who supported NUKING Vietnam back into the Stone Age, but didn't want to drop the ordnance. Consequently, when I see (misworded) statements that he's "supporting the military" my righteous indignation kicks in.

No need to thank me for fighting in another fiasco.

Sandra, we were not wanted then - Nam Vets did not even put down they served in Vietnam on Job Applications-- if they did - they would not get hired. LOL Serious there Sandra - very serious.

The "Thanking Days" are past and history Sandra.

Personally, save that "Thanks" for someone that cares and buys that BS!

As far as "Carrying On" - save that BS for some wanna bee!

That there Sandra is the way I see it and the way it is! You Hang Tough ~

Heart wanted to help

By John Doherty
and Alexa James
Times Herald-Record
jdoherty@th-record.com
ajames@th-record.com

New Windsor – In his last letter to Jennifer, his sweetheart since fourth grade, Joseph Tremblay worried he'd made a mistake volunteering to fight in Iraq.
"I wonder if coming here is following my heart. I know my place is there with you," he wrote.
Jennifer Coloni, Tremblay's fiancee, received the letter yesterday at home in New Windsor, a day after Defense Department officials notified her of his death.
Cpl. Tremblay was killed Tuesday night in Hit, Iraq, northwest of Baghdad. The Humvee he was traveling in was hit by a makeshift roadside bomb, according to Marine officials. He was 23.
"I can't write anymore, it's getting too dark," ended the letter, dated two weeks ago. "I love you so much and hope that you are happy and well. I will be home with you soon."
Jennifer sat on a couch in her fiance's boyhood home yesterday, clutching Joey's black sweatshirt, wearing his Marine Corps T-shirt and his socks.
"He went," she said. "Even though he had mixed emotions about (leaving) his family, and me."
He was remembered yesterday by his family as a 5-foot-6-inch bundle of contradictions: the baby of the family who worried over his big brother and protected his older sister, the ambivalent warrior dedicated to his brother Marines.
"He just wanted to make everything better for everyone else. He was always trying to make everything perfect," Jennifer said. During brief phone calls from Iraq, he told her the devastation was overwhelming.
He didn't know what to do. He wanted to fix it.
It really bothered him to see pictures of Iraqi children crying, he'd tell Jennifer, asking her to mail more candy. That way he'd have something to give them.
He died too young to resolve all the questions swirling in him, they said.
His heart led him to re-enlist in the Marines last year and be with the family he had found in the corps, she said.
Marine training had put steely muscle on his small frame and given him the inner glow of confidence. But he put little stock in politicians' talk of Iraq and ached to come home.
He was a teenage runner who used to jog three miles on a whim to visit Jennifer, but he didn't play high school sports. He had struggled to graduate high school but read the philosophy of Howard Bloom and Sun Tsu on downtime in Iraq.
The shy, reserved kid had a knack for comedy and once pondered trying acting. He was considering a career in social work or sales, Jennifer said, or maybe opening an auto window-tinting business.
"Joey really wanted to be a dad," she said, picking at the sleeve of his sweatshirt.
The toughness of the Marine reputation attracted Joey since junior high school, said his father, Lawrence Tremblay, a 53-year-old mechanic.
So, too, did the regimen and the fraternity of the corps: His parents divorced when he was 2, and his father wound up with custody of Joey and his older brother. "I'd be lying if I said (the divorce) probably didn't have something to do with it, his decision," Lawrence Tremblay said yesterday. "It was tough on him."
Joseph Tremblay signed enlistment papers even before completing the 1999 summer school session that would earn him his diploma.
He was discharged from active duty in August 2003, spending a four-year tour in Hawaii, Japan and Australia – missing combat in Afghanistan.
He came back to New Windsor. But after just a few months, he decided to join the Marine Reserves.
"I'll be honest," his father said. "I tried to talk him out of it."
He signed up anyway.
By this winter, his reserve unit was asked to volunteer for duty with the 3rd Marine Battalion's 25th Infantry Regiment.
"He told me, "If they ever ask me to go, I'm going,'" Jennifer remembered yesterday.
He had the choice between an immediate one-year tour and waiting a year to begin deployment: He chose to go immediately so he could start a family sooner.
On Feb. 22, Jennifer and Joey got engaged in Las Vegas, an unlikely leave destination for the homebody couple.
Before he shipped out, he sent Jennifer a dozen roses: 11 red and one white. He'd been sending her that signature bouquet since the sixth grade.
Iraq, she said, was not what he expected.
The wreckage of war unnerved him, she said, but he threw himself into work to help Iraqi children. There were 20-hour work days and then long stretches of boredom.
The couple had decided to relocate north of Orlando, Fla., where she has family.
"Whenever he called (from Iraq), he wanted to know where we were, how things were going," Jennifer said.
At the Tremblay house yesterday, neighbors who had not gotten the bad news yet tooted their horns hello. Relatives stopped by. As it got later, the phone began to ring more and more.
Like every young couple, she and Tremblay had planned a lot of things, even picking out names for future babies.
The couple wasn't blind to the danger he was facing.
"He gave me all the possibilities, this being one of them," Jennifer said.

http://www.recordonline.com/archive/2005/04/29/marine29.htm

Was it murder? A US marine faces scrutiny



RALEIGH, N.C. – Some called Marine 2nd Lt. Ilario Pantano the "preppy marine," a charismatic Gulf War veteran-turned-Wall Street broker who cut his long locks and reenlisted in the Marines after several close friends perished in the Sept. 11 World Trade Center attacks.
Legions of supporters say the 33-year-old served with honor. "I'd have him for my son," says Rep. Walter Jones ® of North Carolina, one of Lieutenant Pantano's staunchest defenders.

Marine prosecutors have a different view of the officer's professional conduct. A year after he shot two terror suspects in the back during a tense search mission in Iraq, and laid a scrawled sign with a unit motto - "No better friend, no worse enemy" - on their bodies, Pantano this week is facing a military version of a grand jury at Camp Lejeune, N.C., on charges of premeditated murder.

The Pantano saga has become the first post-9/11 case of alleged murder in combat to come before the military justice system. Haunting to some for its echoes of proceedings that followed the My Lai massacre in Vietnam, the case is also dredging up difficult questions about the morality of combat and what can happen to soldiers when the fog of war clears.

"Just being on a battlefield isn't a complete license to do anything," says Michael Belknap, a professor at California Western School of Law and author of "The Vietnam War on Trial." "After all, the two people that he killed were shot in the back, and that certainly, most of the time, is not going to put the shooter in a good position."

The two men - Hamaady Kareem and Tahah Ahmead Hanjil - were stopped in their car as they were leaving an area in Mahmudiyah where homes were being searched. At first they were handcuffed. When reports came that soldiers had found explosives in the area, Pantano removed the handcuffs and ordered the men to search their own car.

"They quickly pivoted their bodies toward each other. They did this simultaneously, while speaking in muffled Arabic. I thought they were attacking me and I decided to fire my M-16A4 service rifle in self-defense," Pantano has said in his official statement. But some witnesses said he may have emptied 45 rounds into the men before leaving what fellow marines called a "death card." If convicted, Pantano could face the death penalty, though that's unlikely, experts say.

Already, the case has stirred a fiery debate about the murky nature of the Middle Eastern battlefield. For three weeks, Mr. Jones has spoken almost nightly about Pantano on the House floor. He has written two letters to President Bush asking for intervention. Pantano's cause has also been taken up by conservative talk-show hosts such as Michael Savage.

They claim that the prosecution implicitly limits soldiers' ability to make split-second life-and-death decisions - which affects morale and recruitment - all in the name of a 33-year-old who left his cushy stateside existence to take on terrorists in the dusty heart of Babylonia.

Jones has met with Pantano three times, including at a barbecue fundraiser near Camp Lejeune. Pantano's mother, Merry, has designed a website to gather support for the former Goldman Sachs energy trader, who, when he reenlisted, was making a six-figure income at his new company, Filter Media. He grew up on the streets of New York and earned a scholarship to the tony Horace Mann prep school. He and his wife have two young children.

"I do not believe that Lieutenant Pantano should be charged with premeditated murder for doing his job," says Jones. "This sends a horrible message to young men and women in uniform.... Those who have never walked in a marine's shoes should think long and hard before judging him."

After this week's hearing, Marine Maj. Mark Winn will decide whether to recommend a court-martial. Those who study ideas of America's "just war" theory in the Middle East say that if Pantano is court-martialed the jury that judges him will be appropriate: fellow combat-veteran marines.

"There's such a narrow line in those tense situations between an unnecessary use of force and self-defense that it almost defies anybody to draw that line precisely - and that's really where a court-martial can come in," says Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter Roy Gutman, author of "Crimes of War: What the public should know."

The parallels to My Lai aren't so much in the action on the ground as in the reaction back home, historians say.

In that case, Lt. William Calley of Charlie Company was sentenced to 20 years in prison for his role in the killing of 535 Vietnamese civilians. Both sides saw him as a scapegoat, and the case - and charges of coverups - came to color the mythology of the Vietnam War. Now, there are lingering questions about a coverup in the Pantano case as well, since Pantano was once cleared of any wrongdoing by his immediate superiors and even received a glowing promotion report - all amid the Abu Ghraib prisoner-abuse scandal.

"What disturbs me frankly about what Congressman Jones has had to say is it's very reminiscent of the kind of statements that were made by a lot of fairly ill-informed politicians with respect to My Lai," says Mr. Belknap. "A lot of this is starting to sound like echoes of that case."

Insurgents' infiltration of civilian populations have played into both cases. Although Calley was convicted, another defendant in My Lai, Capt. Ernest Medina, was found not guilty. Pantano's self-defense argument, say some, mirrors Medina's. Medina shot an unarmed woman who was lying on the ground, but testified that she was in the process of getting up and had a hand grenade. "To claim self-defense, you don't actually have to be in danger, you just have to reasonably believe you are," says Belknap.

There are deeper implications for the military as well. Around the world, amid satellite-borne propaganda campaigns, the case promises to affect how American soldiers are perceived by locals on the battlefield - one of the main struggles in Iraq.

"The [military] has tremendous incentives to be at least perceived as being fair and just," says Andrew Rehfeld, who studies morality and war at Washington University in St. Louis. "Being seen as aiming only at bad guys and not at any old person, they will garner more approval."

FOG OF WAR? Lt. Ilario Pantano has been charged with the premeditated murder of two Iraqis near Baghdad last April.

USA > Justice
from the April 29, 2005 edition

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0429/p01s02-usju.html

Sandra, Tom just asked me if he could post in this thread because the topic is about Marines, not just about any of the men in all of the services who have fought over in Iraq.

He did this out of respect for me, Sandra.
He wasn't implying or trying to limit anyone's ability or desire to post in this thread about real Marines that were killed in Iraq last year.


But, I would like to get your opinion about what they did to Captain Royer.


He was removed from his command because he cared for his men.

What do you think about that, Sandra?

I've served under a few officers who the description dictatorial would be an appropriate description.

The odd thing about brad's analysis is the accusation of being dictatorial would have had to come from a subordinate and would have to be collaborated, a very odd accusation if his subordinates perceived him to care about them.

It's also odd a Captain would get a charge leveled at him for being dictatorial, almost every martinet I served under was either a 1st or 2nd Leutinant; by the time a Marine officer is ready to be a Captain they have learned better "people" skills or they don't make it to Captain. I guess there is the possibility someone made the grade without developing the skills needed though.

Just 30 years of experience speaking.

U.S. Marine 2nd Lt. Ilario Pantano, left, walks to his Article 32 hearing with his wife, Jill Pantano, right, and mother Merry Pantano, center, on Friday, April 29, 2005, in Camp Lejeune, N.C. Second Lt. Ilario Pantano, accused of murdering two Iraqi detainees, worked zealously, but didn't carry that over into abusive behavior, witnesses said during a military pretrial hearing. (AP Photo/Sara D. Davis)

Witness Refuses to Testify in Marine Case

A key witness against a Marine accused of murdering two Iraqi detainees took the stand in a pretrial hearing Friday just long enough to refuse to testify, invoking his right to avoid incrimination.

Marine Sgt. Daniel Coburn testified earlier this week that 2nd Lt. Ilario Pantano had been instructed to release the men that the officer eventually shot in the back. But Coburn abruptly left the stand when he was told he was suspected of violating orders forbidding him from giving interviews to the media about the case.

Coburn told Marine officials prior to his appearance Friday that he wouldn't return to the stand unless he is granted immunity from prosecution. But military lawyers said that was unnecessary because they have no plans to charge Coburn. They indicated they will instead submit written statements he gave to investigators.

Pantano's lawyer, Charles Gittens, had argued that Coburn should be compelled to testify, and a failure to put him on the stand "makes this proceeding a sham."

Pantano, a former Wall Street trader who rejoined the Marines after the Sept. 11 attacks, has acknowledged shooting the men during an April 2004 search outside a suspected terrorist hideout in Mahmudiyah, Iraq. But he says he acted in self-defense when they moved toward him in a threatening manner.

The Article 32 hearing, the military equivalent of a civilian grand jury, will determine whether Pantano, 33, will face a court-martial. If convicted of murder, he could get the death penalty.

Coburn testified Wednesday that Pantano suspected the two Iraqi men of shelling his platoon, but was ordered to release the men. Coburn said he was looking away, under orders to scan the nearby area for threats, when he heard shots.

It was at that point that question were raised about his possible violation of orders forbidding him from giving media interviews. Defense lawyers had complained Coburn had given interviews about the case to ABC News, the Daily News of New York and New York magazine.

Other witnesses have heaped scorn on Coburn, a 10-year veteran, describing him as a weak Marine who's bitter about Pantano removing him from a leadership role within his platoon and making him a radioman, a job usually reserved for the youngest Marines.

They have described Pantano as a zealous, but not abusive officer.

More than a half-dozen Marines or former Marines who served with Pantano in Iraq praised him in testimony Thursday and Friday as an able leader who remained cool in combat, amiable with Iraqi nationals and protective of his troops. Pantano was so moved at one point that he broke down in tears.

Some witnesses testified that Pantano could be aggressive. One corporal who testified about two such incidents acknowledged under cross-examination that he never considered Pantano's behavior abusive.

http://my.ev1.net/english/news/newsarticle...bject=headlines

How about it boys; this fellow left a job making in the 6 figures to return to the Marines, everyone in his platton except one disgruntled Sergeant has nothing but admiration and praise for how he conducts himself and watches out for his men, he's been cleared once before of all of these charges, and no body here is raising hell over what's being done to him.

Name one.



I didn't analyze anything.

Put in quotes those comments of mine about any analysis you believe I have made.


Hogwash!

Big Sky, those are definately things to ponder over--for sure!

You make a he_l of a case Bro', points well made from this doggies view! Hang Tough~

It was 30 years ago today when the last Americans climbed a ladder to a helicopter on top of the U.S. Embassy in Saigon and shut the door on a war that seemed like it would never end.

Three weeks ago when I put my hand against the cool blackness of the Vietnam Memorial in Washington, D.C., the fact that almost exactly three decades has passed didn't occur to me.

Standing there, at the point of the "V" of The Wall, you can be overwhelmed by the names, row after row, tens of thousands of them. Each one belongs to a man or woman who died in Vietnam, their lives cut short in a war that left an open wound in our country that is still unhealed. Just think back to last fall and the presidential election if you have any doubt.

It's 30 years later and the Vietnam War is ancient history for the generations born since then. Mention to a teenager today the names of the last two Americans killed in Vietnam -- Marine Cpl. Charles McMahon of Woburn, just weeks shy of his 22nd birthday, and Lance Cpl. Darwin Judge, a 19-year-old from Iowa -- and you might as well be talking about the Civil War. It was a long, long time ago and we're fighting this generation's own war, one that is starting to seem endless, in Iraq.

When the U.S. finally pulled out of South Vietnam, the American death toll had topped 58,000. In Iraq, the total of U.S. war dead is nearing 1,600 and rising almost every day.

On a trip to a newspaper conference in Washington, I took an evening walk to the new World War II Memorial, then along the reflecting pool to The Wall, the Vietnam Memorial.

At the WWII memorial I walked among hundreds of school kids laughing and taking pictures of each other with the towering fountains spraying behind them. I wondered if my dad, a decorated Navy veteran in the South Pacific, would have wanted to visit this place of honor. We took trips when I was a kid, the six of us packed into a Buick station wagon. We drove from Indiana to Washington, D.C., one year, but that was to visit the Lincoln and Jefferson memorials and to tour the Smithsonian. It was long before the death toll in Vietnam was even making the evening news, and decades before the Vietnam and World War II memorials came to be.

Dad might have taken us to this new memorial to the war he fought, if time and death hadn't been so out of order for him. But he never talked about the war when he was alive so I had a hard time imagining he would ever have opened up, even at such a solemn and proud monument.

Years after he died, I found a box of letters in my mother's basement, stuffed with every piece of correspondence Dad sent home to his young bride from mid-1942 into 1944. He wrote about some of the horror, but he never spoke of it, at least to his kids.

In one letter, he described the day he pulled the blackened bodies of more than a dozen of his young sailors from the wreckage of his LST after a Japanese pilot, either driven by kamikaze, "the divine wind," or already dead at the controls of his flaming plane, slammed into the deck.

If Dad had lived long enough, he might have made the pilgrimage to the new memorial, joining the slow parade of aging veterans coming to remember, or maybe to find some peace.

I looked for my own peace at The Wall, the Vietnam Memorial. It's a place I visit whenever I'm in Washington, usually walking along in a crowd of youngsters who have come, with chaperones, to see the capital. My oldest brother's name isn't etched here, although memories of his injuries in Vietnam and his death from cancer in '83 come back to me in a flood when I'm at The Wall.

The adults tried to shush the kids as we neared the memorial, walking down the gentle sloped sidewalk that seems to sink into the ground, parallel to the black granite slabs. For all the criticism and outrage that young architect Maya Ying Lin's design -- it was a "black gash in the ground," some claimed -- brought in its early days, she created a beautiful tribute to the thousands who died. The walkway takes you into the center of the long, black "V" until you stand at the middle, the part deepest in the ground, where the sound of traffic and laughter is muffled and distant.

Thirty years ago today, America turned away from more than a decade of war and killing in Southeast Asia. In 30 years, when our children and grandchildren visit some new granite memorial to our dead from the Iraq War, how many names will they count? How deep into our country's soul will that gash extend? And will our wounds be healed?

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/columnis...articleid=97254

QUOTE(The_Bammo @ Apr 29 2005, 02:33 AM)

[font=Times]No need to thank me for fighting in another fiasco. 

Sandra, we were not wanted then - Nam Vets did not even put down they served in Vietnam on Job Applications--  if they did - they would not get hired.  LOL  Serious there Sandra - very serious.

The "Thanking Days" are past and history Sandra.

Personally, save that "Thanks" for someone that cares and buys that BS!

As far as "Carrying On" - save that BS for some wanna bee!

That there Sandra is the way I see it and the way it is!  You Hang Tough ~ 

Right on Bro
we know "It Don't Mean Nothing"
Carry on Soldier

You wouldn't know any of them brad, they were Marine Corp officers. Some of them left the Corp and some of them developed their skills and are still officers of Marines.


I guess if it wasn't analysis it might have been hyperbole, I was trying to give you the benefit of doubt.

Be a little more specific brad, what part do you consider to be hogwash? Would you care to tell us how much experience you have working for and with Marine Corp junior officers, in what capacity and for how long.

How do you know that?

You don't.

Since you are not a Marine Corps officer, I suggest you try and limit your comments to the subject matter that you are trained at - farming.

The Marine Corp doesn't exist, Tex.
There is no such thing as Marine Corp.
Corp is an abbreviation for corporation.

Any 2-week old Marine recruit in boot camp would know that.


Anything you say about the Marine Corps.

The rest is just your uneducated opinion.

I want to remind everyone of the rules of this forum:



Please pay special attention to the bolded text. Thank you.

Where'd you go to boot camp brad? We've been asking you for about , what, three or four months? Then there was the Kerry/Edwards forum where you actually made the claim to be a Marine but wasn't able to answer a few simple questions a recruit with a week in the Corp would know. Remember the Gunny asking brad?


Actually I only have about 5 years experience farming and that was acquire after retiring from the Marine Corps. I guess if a person wakes up in a new world every morning it's easy to forget about thirty years experience in the Marine Corps.

Well it may be my opinion but it's based in 30 years of experience and as far as being uneducated I do have two Bachelor's degrees, one Masters degree, and am considered fairly fluent in a total of five languages.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/mar2005/ncar-m21.shtml

Iraq war veterans, military families hold protest in North Carolina
By a reporting team
21 March 2005

Alex Ryabov is a Marine veteran and cofounder of Iraq Veterans Against the War who took part in combat operations during the initial invasion of Iraq in March 2003. He said, “I joined the Marine Corps in 2000 just after a recruiter appeared at our high school. He used to call me repeatedly to urge me to join the corps. He gave me the usual sales pitch of how wonderful the Marine life would be with a chance for traveling all over the world. In addition I could also get help for college.

“My unit came back in May 2003 and already I was sick of the Marines from what we had done in Iraq. I had to hold myself from quitting outright, which would have subjected me to sanctions from the corps. After I got out, I went to a peace rally in June 2004. I was impressed at the fact that the opposition to the war extended to all age groups. I was already against this war, but what I saw at the peace rally had a big impact.

“After getting out of the Marine Corps I met up with Michael Hoffman (one of the main founders of Iraq Veterans Against the War) and discussed about our opposition to the war. I was also in touch with other veterans and we all then decided to state our opposition openly. We formed the IVAW and went public with our opposition during a Veterans Day march in July 2004. Since then we have attracted scores of members and supporters. We have visited wounded veterans at Walter Reed Hospital, where I estimate at least 70 percent are against the war. There is also widespread opposition among the troops currently deployed in Iraq.”

That would put the fellow at most to be 23 years old today. How many folks here remember how good their thinking was when you were 23?

Michael Hoffman isn't any older, it must be mighty heady for the two young fellows to receive so much attention for their views.

The people paying attention to them though I could do without.
http://www.socialistworker.org/2004-1/495/...gThemHome.shtml

I know how US Armed Forces wants to get ahold of young minds and bodies as soon as possible to mold them into their own style of a killing machine. Male minds at 19 are in a very formable state, as the thinking of a young man is naive and gullible to what his instant needs are in life are. He only wants to impress his peers and local 'chicks' in the quickest way possible for accomplishing that whether it be money/job or a uniform. A young man's wake up call in life usually occurs in the military and by the standards of which he's being used for. As they enter war and realize that they are occupying a country for the wrong reasons and becomes a part of a team that brings destruction while killing and maiming others (sometimes the 'declared' enemy or sometimes not). That is when such a young mind begins to search for the truth. That's not what the armed forces wants. Individuals are not to think for themselves, but to act on direct orders without question. Human nature (conscience) simply steps in and reacts otherwise despite what the armed forces demands. It's that conscience that takes over to do what's best for mankind. The armed forces/govt seeks control over others and individual thinking justifiably rationalizes.

I consider this a 'real' marine. He's been there , done that (in the 'nam)... and knows what wrong wars means.


http://www.fairfieldweekly.com/gbase/News/...ml?oid=oid:6523

I spent 13 years in the Marine Corps. I fought my butt off there. Silver star. Purple hearts. Presidential citations. Marine Corps meritorious citations. I was a platoon commander for the last two tours. I was there for four tours over in Vietnam. I doubt I will be speaking up against this war. I'm not an activist. I'm very quiet. I paid a helluva price in Vietnam. I'm on 100 percent disability. PTSD. Physical injuries from gunshots to the arm, to the stomach, shrapnel to the head, to the leg.

But I fought so people could protest and demonstrate in the world and have their own opinions. I didn't like the protesters at all when I was in Vietnam. I was gung ho. It affected me because of what they were calling us. Not all of them. But we didn't know that. They were calling us babykillers and all that. I was following what I believed what was supposed to be the right thing. But the only way we came out of Vietnam was because of the protesters. They were the ones that ended the war. They deserve my medals as much as I got 'em. It wouldn't have been ended if they hadn't protested. I wouldn't have made it home.

—Don Judson, 60, of Woodbury

*******************************************************************

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...4-2004Oct9.html

For Marines, a Frustrating Fight
Some in Iraq Question How and Why War Is Being Waged

By Steve Fainaru
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, October 10, 2004; Page A01

ISKANDARIYAH, Iraq -- Scrawled on the helmet of Lance Cpl. Carlos Perez are the letters FDNY. After the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on New York, the Pentagon and western Pennsylvania, Perez quit school, left his job as a firefighter in Long Island, N.Y., and joined the U.S. Marine Corps.

"To be honest, I just wanted to take revenge," said Perez, 20.

Pfc. Kyle Maio, 19, spots Lance Cpl. Carlos Perez, 20. Maio said he thinks U.S. officials are not being candid about Iraq because of upcoming U.S. elections. (Steve Fainaru -- The Washington Post)

Now, two months into a seven-month combat tour in Iraq, Perez said he sees little connection between the events of Sept. 11 and the war he is fighting. Instead, he said, he is increasingly disillusioned by a conflict whose origins remain unclear and frustrated by the timidity of U.S. forces against a mostly faceless enemy.

"Sometimes I see no reason why we're here," Perez said. "First of all, you cannot engage as many times as we want to. Second of all, we're looking for an enemy that's not there. The only way to do it is go house to house until we get out of here."

The Marines' opinions have been shaped by their participation in hundreds of hours of operations over the past two months. Their assessments differ sharply from those of the interim Iraqi government and the Bush administration, which have said that Iraq is on a certain -- if bumpy -- course toward peaceful democracy.

"I feel we're going to be here for years and years and years," said Lance Cpl. Edward Elston, 22, of Hackettstown, N.J. "I don't think anything is going to get better; I think it's going to get a lot worse. It's going to be like a Palestinian-type deal. We're going to stop being a policing presence and then start being an occupying presence. . . . We're always going to be here. We're never going to leave."

Several members of the platoon said they were struck by the difference between the way the war was being portrayed in the United States and the reality of their daily lives.

"Every day you read the articles in the States where it's like, 'Oh, it's getting better and better,' " said Lance Cpl. Jonathan Snyder, 22, of Gettysburg, Pa. "But when you're here, you know it's worse every day."

Pfc. Kyle Maio, 19, of Bucks County, Pa., said he thought government officials were reticent to speak candidly because of the upcoming U.S. elections. "Stuff's going on here but they won't flat-out say it," he said. "They can't get into it."

Sounds like you're doin what you want to do in life Bammo, and that's the important thing. I applaud you for that.

Thanks Bro', appreciate that!

One more thing I want to do (LOL) Hang Glide!!

That looks super! Got to be a rush and a half !! LOL

Bro' take care-- Hang Tough~

These are the pertinent facts - and they are going after Royer for it as a result.

Never got to hang glide either Tom. If it's half as much of a thrill as a parachute you got to try it.

I'm taking the wife on a cruise to Mexico next week and putting her on a para-sail just so she can get an idea of the fun she's been missing.

I see them hang gliding off the White Mountains in N.H. when I am on my bike-- that looks real sweet. LOL

Going to go for it this year---that there is a must do! LOL

Taking the better half to Mexico to para-sail - Damn Marine- I never did that either. She should have a blast.

Have a good trip and don't drink the H2O! LOL

Only places I've been in Mexico was Juarez and Tiajuana, LOL- Nice Spots! LOL

I heard there are some pretty cool places in Mexico that are very reasonable and have #1 Riding.

So you road a Bike or two - 750 Honda - 4 cyl --fast bike! And that BSA is a collectors item now --big Bucks for one that runs to a British Bike collector!

Had two BSA'S - a Lightning Rocket 650 two Amal Carbs and Trumpet exhausts and a Victor 441 Thumper (1 cyl) that was one heavy dirt bike!

The English made a decent Bike, you should see the New Trumpets-- Check them out-- http://www.triumph.co.uk/usa/ - Not bad at all - Now Kawasaki makes a bike that is a replica of a 69-70 Trumpet - Kawasaki W650 Nostalgic -

I always liked the way British bikes looked. My brother had a Triumph 500 twin, my Mom and Dad's garage still has two big greasy spots on the floor, one from where I parked the BSA and one where he parked the Triumph.

My older brother always had a nice bike, he had a Harley XLCH which the right grip was the throttle and the left grip retarded the mag to start it. No such thing as an electric starter and if you forgot to retard the mag and was a little kid it would lift you clean over the handlebars when trying to kick it off.

I bought my Honda brand new in 1976. Rode it almost every day for a little over 8 years.

Been to Tiajuana a few times but it's been a long time ago. When I was searching for a place to live when I retired we checked out the Rio Grande Valley, but my wife nixed it, she's full blood Indian and these Mexicans would just come up to her talking in Spanish. She don't speak a word of it and it scared the hell out of her.

Last time we went to Mexico the same thing happened, we was riding a bus out of Merida and this kid stuck an armadillo through the window in her face trying to get her to buy it and was hammering away in Spanish like he thought she would know what he was saying.

Down in Mexico is a bunch different than the border, if you get a chance, you ought to go.

Well found out today I will be going Back to Camp Pendleton March of next year. Bout time I need to get back out into the Fleet. Been an Instructor for almost 3 yrs now, need to get back in the dirt LOL.

Hopefully I get sent back to my old Battalion 1st Battalion 11th Marines, the best dang Battalion in the best dang Regiment in the Marine Corps LOL

Semper Fi

3/2 Marine re-enlists on tank in Iraq
Submitted by: 2nd Marine Division
Story by: Computed Name: Lance Cpl. Lucian Friel
Story Identification #: 200553143515

http://www.marines.mil/marinelink/mcn2000....b1?OpenDocument

CAMP AL QAIM, Iraq(May 3, 2005) -- "When a Marine reenlists, your officers are pretty lenient when it comes to where you want to have the ceremony," explained SSgt. Benjamin Ricard, the battalion training chief for 3rd Battalion, 2d Marine Regiment.

The Cartersville, Ga., native reenlisted here in a way he thought would impress his two sons at home.

Ricard reenlisted on top of a tank.

"The tank symbolizes strength and America in Iraq. My kids are into trucks, trains and tanks, so they'll think it's the coolest thing in the world. Plus, how many people do you know can say they did that," explained the graduate of Bay Shore High School, Bradenton, Fla.

Ricard originally joined the Marine Corps after high school because he wanted the Corps to make him a man.

But now after his second reenlistment, he's realized that the Marine Corps has grown on him.

"I'm not ready to give it up yet, I love it too much. It has its good days and bad days, but I think it's grown on me," he said.

This is Ricard's first deployment to Iraq and he's anticipating what might occur.

"I'm looking forward to the experience and ensuring all my Marines come home safe. I like being a part of Marine Corps history and to know they're going to write about us someday for doing something great here," explained the former School of Infantry instructor.

At the beginning of his new enlistment, Ricard set himself goals to accomplish.

"I want to spend more time with my family when we return home. My new wife, Mutsuko, and my two little boys Logan-Ryan and Nikolai are the most important people in my life. That's why I waited to reenlist on my son's birthday. It meant a lot to me to do that," he explained, smile stretched from ear to ear.

Ricard looks back on his career thus far and can see how the Corps has helped him in his life.

"I look around now that I'm older at other people my age who think about what they didn't do or could have done. But I don't do that in the Marine Corps. It's what sets us a part from everybody else," he explained.

When Ricard was questioned about his plans to stay in the Marine Corps and continue this path in the future, he responded with full confidence and belief in his answer.

"They're will have to throw me out, they're will have to tell me my time is up and that I'm done. But the way I see it, this reenlistment on the tank only gives me something to top the next time around," he explained.

Every single member of this forum should read this New York Times article.

It's a prime example of why the recruiters are having such a hard time getting anyone to sign up these days.

Anyone else feel a draft coming on?

Observing Passover in Iraq
Submitted by: 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing
Story by: Computed Name: Capt. Rob James
Story Identification #: 200551932

http://www.marines.mil/marinelink/mcn2000....b0?OpenDocument

AL ASAD, Iraq(April 28, 2005) -- “Passover has a message for the conscience and the heart of all mankind. For what does it commemorate? It commemorates the deliverance of a people from degrading slavery, from most foul and cruel tyranny. It is God’s protest against unrighteousness,” says Morris Joseph in “Judaism As Creed and Life”.

Passover began April 24 and what better place than Iraq, a land long oppressed by the evil of a tyrannical dictator, to celebrate at the Seder table the liberating power of the Passover God has promised his people.

Gathering in a dusty room, at tables set with plastic plates and bowls and paper cups, Marines, sailors, soldiers and a civilian seized the opportunity to reconnect with the Jewish heritage of their faith at a Christian Seder meal here.

It was standing room only as Rabbi Seth Phillips, a lieutenant commander from the Naval Submarine Base in New London, Conn., led more than 30 service members in the Seder meal.

While the service was a bit more abbreviated and much less formal than the traditional Seder, Rabbi Phillips, one of only seven Jewish chaplains in the Navy, walked the group through the meal.

As the meal and ceremony that imbues it progressed, Rabbi Phillips took the time to explain the symbolism that pervades not just the steps (the specific actions that compose the ceremonial meal) but that of the various foods themselves.

The meal, steeped in symbolism serves many purposes, a central theme of which is to remind us of our past, Egypt’s oppression of the Israelites and their eventual freedom. Additionally, it reminds us of the constant struggle between good and evil taking place in the heart of every man.

While we are no longer enslaved by a physical power, as the Jews were by the Egyptian Pharaoh, the meal reminds us that, despite the freedom we enjoy and often take for granted, we remain slaves to our evil desires.

While the deep lessons of the Seder meal have are serious the ceremony was lighthearted.

The service provides a fun and tangible lesson in the history of the Jewish people invoking the many years of slavery they endured under the Egyptians while at the same time demonstrating how a saving knowledge of God provided them true freedom from the most heinous of all bondage, that of sin.

Rabbi Phillips explained that while the lessons of the Seder meal are grave the ceremony is executed with humor. The ceremony, which would very likely take hours, is designed to keep the interest of any children involved and includes a matzo hide and seek, and a bit of drama with the singing of prayers and story telling.

While an ideal Seder would be very formal, executed following long practiced tradition, Rabbi Phillips explained that it could be held in a fighting hole. He explained that there are only three absolute requirements that go to the very core of the symbolism of the ceremony.

No matter how simple or formal the Seder meal there are three distinct elements and each must be recognized. They are the matzo, the paschal lamb and the bitter herbs. These elements are symbolic of the plight of the Israelites enslaved in Egypt and when finally freed, their forty-year exodus to the land they had been promised.

The first is the bitter herbs that symbolize the bitterness of a life enslaved. The second is the lamb, a reminder of the tenth plague that befell all of Egypt, the death of the first-born son of every family who did not spread the blood of the lamb on their doorpost as a symbol for the angel of Death to Passover. Finally, the matzo or unleavened bread recalls the haste with which the Jews fled Egypt. When the opportunity came to depart Egypt they had to quickly grab the bread they were preparing not allowing it leaven or rise.

Following the ceremonial meal much of the group who had gathered for the meal adjourned to the dining facility for fellowship. There they had the opportunity to talk with the rabbi and have him answer their questions.

Thursday night Rabbi Phillips presided over a Seder meal for the Jewish service members here.

Rabbi Phillips was quick to thank Cmdr. Ron Brown, chaplain, 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing (Forward), for all of the preparation that went into ensuring the ceremony went off well. This was his eighth Seder and according to Phillips, “Chaplain Brown did the best job of preparing for the Seder.”

Chaplain Brown, in turn gave all the credit for the great experience to Lt. David L. Batchelor, chaplain for Marine Attack Squadron 311 and Petty Officer 2nd Class David G. Oihus, a religious program specialist here.

Rabbi Phillips has been trying for the better part of a year to get to Iraq so that he can minister to the Jewish faithful.