With war esculating in the Middle East ..... clashes with Israel draws closer.

http://www.menewsline.com/stories/2005/may/05_27_2.html

Thu, 26 May 2005 19:15:36 GMT
Middle East

NICOSIA [MENL] -- For the first time, Hizbullah has acknowledged the deployment of a huge arsenal of missiles and rockets along the Lebanese border with Israel.

Hizbullah secretary-general Hassan Nasrallah said his organization has deployed 12,000 missiles and rockets in southern Lebanon. Speaking ahead of Lebanese parliamentary elections on May 29, Nasrallah said Hizbullah could strike and destroy any target in northern Israel.

"Some people think we have 12,000 rockets, Katyushas or others," Nasrallah told a rally in Bint Jbeil near the Israeli border on Wednesday. "I tell you we have more than 12,000."

The assertion by Nasrallah confirmed previous assessments by Israeli defense officials of Hizbullah's strength. The Israeli officials reported that Hizbullah's missile arsenal has grown over the last three years to up to 15,000 missiles and rockets

You have chosen a most dubious website as a source, this "news organaztion" is little more than a right wing ultranationalist Israeli propaganda site. The owner of the website?

Middle East Newsline
POB 7606
Jerusalem, 91075
IL

As an illustration of their bias consider that the recently posted article,"MOST U.S. ARMS SENT TO HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSERS" had this quote..



Four out of Five? I bet you can guess that the Article does not even mention The State of Israel at all, even though it is in fact the largest recipient of US aid in the region, and of course is the only one of the five whose intentions are pure. I guess invading other people's land and settling it as they have done since 1967 is not "serious abuse".

Yes, but WE are the largest recipients of Israeli military technology LOL! What the hell does THAT have to do with anything rd? Nasrallah said that, or he didn't right?

Lebanon's Hezbollah has 12,000 rockets: Nasrallah

www.chinaview.cn 2005-05-26 01:28:36

BEIRUT, May 25 (Xinhuanet) -- Lebanon's guerrilla group Hezbollah (Party of God) said Wednesday it possessed more than 12,000 rockets that "all of northern Israel is within reach".

Hezbollah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah made the announcement while addressing a crowd of tens of thousands of supporters in Bint-Jbeil, a Shiite town near the Israeli border, to mark the fifth anniversary of the withdrawal of Israeli troops from southern Lebanon, reports reaching here from the town said.

Nasrallah told his supporters that "some people think we have 12,000 rockets, Katyushas or other ones. I tell you, we have more than 12,000."

"The whole of the north of occupied Palestine as well as its settlements, airports, fields and farms are within the firing range of the fighters of the Islamic resistance," he added. Enditem
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-05/...ent_3002963.htm
Better source????

Agree that the website chosen was (which was done in a quick manner) poorly written, but I knew that the story line was correct. I had just seen a similar report on CNN where they showed al-Sadar ramping up his ppl telling them of how all these rockets were aimed at Israel. They were in a very high fever pitched state of mind. Even tho the Iraqis and Israelis have been at each other for next to forever, I still partly blame the Iraq invasion and BushCon occupancy, along with other BushCo interferences in the Arab world, for the stepped up aggression that's now taking place involving Israel and the other Arab countries.

If I had the time, I could have found a better article to post to better describe this event.

No. The story, like the one on aid to the region, was deliberately incomplete.
From the AFP..

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/a...ah_050526181141




And from Haaretz,
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/580479.html



This sort of half-reporting is exactly what was used to justify the invasion of what are now occupied territories back in 67, when Nassar was employing the very same political tactic.

Right you are!

The ARROW is the only anti-missile missile system in the world. Financed jointly and designed and built by Israel, it has been successfully tested (in California) against a SCUD missile. And, unlike the much over-hyped Patriot, it hit its target.


Read all about it!

http://www.jinsa.org/articles/articles.htm...6,2516,151,2625

The Patriot was an anti-aircraft weapon, it also passed its tests at White Sands. The Israelis based the development of the Arrow on technology they were not authorized to extract from the Patriot. The US Government has wisely decided to no longer support Israel on this and other development efforts, given Israel's cozy relationship with China.

http://www.independent-media.tv/itemprint....nder%20Reported


Nice, trillions of dollars of our economy gone supporting them, and they get in tight with our enemy.

BTW, the next test failed..
http://www.jinsa.org/articles/articles.htm...6,2516,151,2654

Yeah, the patriot really WAS an anti-aircraft missile. But after CNN (Corrupt News Network) pronounced it an anti-missile missile, the die was cast.




That would be pretty stupid, since we really NEED an ARROW in our quiver. We better stay on good terms with Israel. Besides, when it comes to technology, they're smarter than we are.

http://www.aljazeerah.info/26n/Hezbollah%2...0%20Rockets.htm

Hezbollah Says It Has Over 12,000 Rockets

BINT JBEIL, Lebanon, 26 May 2005 — The head of Lebanon’s Shi'i resistance movement Hezbollah said yesterday his fighters possessed more than 12,000 rockets they could use to hit northern Israel. “Some people think we have 12,000 rockets, Katyushas or other ones. I tell you, we have more than 12,000,” Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah told a crowd of tens of thousands of supporters in Bint-Jbeil, a Shi'i town near the Israeli border.

“The whole of the north of occupied Palestine as well as its illegal settlements, airports, fields and farms are within the firing range of the fighters of the Islamic resistance,” he said, referring to northern Israel. Katyushas have a range of around 10 kilometres.

“The value of these rockets in our hands lies in the fact that the Zionists does not know their number or where they are kept. They are fighting a hidden force which can catch them off-guard at any time,” he said. Nasrallah warned Hezbollah would not allow its fighters to be disarmed in line with UN Security Council Resolution 1559 which calls for militias in Lebanon to be dismantled.

“If someone, anyone, thinks of disarming the resistance, we will fight them to the death,” he said. “We do not want to drag the region into a regional war. We want to protect our country and keep our arms,” he added, reiterating that Hezbollah was, however, prepared to discuss the issue on the domestic Lebanese front.

No, they are not.

We should base our defense on American technology, developed by Americans in America. That way, it won't end up in China's hands or some other nation we don't want to see it appear in.

Or better yet, we should stop meddling in the affairs of foriegn nations, so we don't have to be ready to defend ourselves from the enemies created to benefit very few.

But if we must insist on wasting our tax dollars on this stuff, the money and the technology should stay stateside. I believe the constitution has something to say about the role of the Military is to protect our citizens, and to that end the technology that is used in that service ought to be in the hands of Americans. Only.

Yeah, that's why Canada and Israel are the only two place we can buy excess bullets LOL!

You may think that the Americans should not adopt other people's technology to improve our military, or anything else, like our license from Japan for our "hybrid" engine technology? I mean, c'mon we live in a global world economy, don't be ridiculous! I want our soldiers to have the best equipement and innovation available and if it comes from Israel, that's fine too.

Saudi Arabia went to Israel to find out how to protect their enclaves of westerners from terrorist attacks...so don't be crazy!

I am not crazy, I am just paying attention. The United States won't have their defense comprimised if the Chinese or some other enemy of America figures out how we make cars, but the could very well be hell to pay if the figure out how we protect ourselves from attack. Israel has already demonstated they can not be trusted, and that is why we are pulling back our technology from them. There is not anything special about Israeli technical expertise that can't be replicated by pouring the billions we waste there on American technology instead.

Well said, RD! Israel has consistently proved that they can't be trusted - Jonathan Pollard - The Lavon Affair - The Israeli assault (IMO) on the USS Liberty. Today's AIPAC spy scandals. Sharon has stated many times that Israel can only trust itself, no one else. I wish we had a leader with the 'nads to say the same about Israel.

As far -Jeffmoskin - as Israel's being smarter than us, I'll assume that was said tongue-in-cheek. They've been at constant war since '48, a war they could have ended had they lived up to their word (cf. Land For Peace) years ago. I don't call that smart.

Its been going on for years..

From the "Nuclear Threat Initiative" founded by Sam Nunn and Ted Turner...
http://www.nti.org/db/missile/1993/m9303784.htm





From Asia Times..

Israel's role in China's new warplane By David Isenberg



And from General Accounting Office report...(Country A is Israel)

Defense Industrial Security: Weaknesses in U.S. Security Arrangements


I could go on and on, but you get the idea.

Have to set you straight, Noel. I was just there. Aside from having done the R and D work on the ARROW missile system, they are WAY ahead of us in pharmaceutical R and D as well as semiconductor equipment. They have no restrictions on stem cell research either

All this while der Bush leads us back to the dark ages.

If that's not being smarter than us, I dunno what is.

Rubbish. The present power in semi equipment are pacific rim nations, and what specifically do you mean by way ahead? Is that based on the word of some Israeli research firm that needs to bleed American taxpayers dry of more of our money?

Since you say they are smarter than us, you are implying your fellow Americans are inferior to them. Those of not loyal to two flags just don't see it that way.

G-d chose my tribe over your tribe. That's not smart.

http://www.bangor.ac.uk/chaplaincy/hebron.htm.

Check out yet one more site from reputable observers of Israel's ongoing genocide against Palestinians. Check out, particularly, the Hebron photo, where those vampire bats known as "settlers" throw their garbage down onto a Palestinian street. Only true cowards would do this. And they are not aberrations or outlaws. They are merely implementing the everyday racist policies of the Zionist land grab. Oops! I forgot! G-d told them to. There is a wonderful organization of Jews called Not In My Name in which they separate themselves form this Nazism. As an American citizen and taxpayer I too say Not In My Name. Israel is a primitive, violent racist state. From the vampire bats of Hebron to cowards such as Michael Ledeen of AEI and Richard Perle and Norman Podhoretz et al., Zionism preaches eternal, racist war. That's not smart.

We can all sit around and wonder why no one did anything about Hitler in the thirties. Well we CAN do something about Israeli Nazism. We should demand from our leaders an end to blind support for Israel.

It takes two to tango, monsiours et madames... But whatever effectiveness your argument may have had, it is gone. Comparing Israel to nazism or hitlerism forgets atrocities on both sides that must be overcome by these parties. And that comment disrespects the 6 to 12 million Jews slaughtered in the Holucaust. And IMO every victim of WWII.



Haaretz Last update - 10:12 31/05/2005
Hold your heads high and come home
By Yoel Marcus

This week the media reported that the army is thinking of airlifting the settlers out of Gaza. A few weeks ago, we heard that the army was thinking of evacuation by sea. I wonder what the next proposal will be. Escorting them out through underground tunnels?

The planners of the evacuation are indeed preparing for every scenario and every snag, including outright violence. There's only one thing they haven't considered: the possibility that the settlers will leave willingly, without raising a hand against the enforcement authorities or dragging the country into chaos.

Ilan Cohen, director-general of the Prime Minister's Office, complained last week that the Gaza settlers are driving Israel crazy. Housing Minister Isaac Herzog said this week that the settler leaders haggle with him at night over every fine point in the compensation package, only to turn around and petition the courts in the morning. "These people are driving us insane," says Herzog. "This is sabotage. The whole country is bending over backward to compensate them and they're playing games. They sit at the negotiating table and while they're there, they organize protests."

If the public only knew how deeply the state is dipping into its pockets to make it up to the evacuees, the screams would reach the high heavens. But the extremists are out to create a trauma that will not be soon forgotten. They want to rid the country's political leaders, whoever they may be, of any desire to go on to the next stage and evacuate settlements in Judea and Samaria.

Few people know that the Eshkol administration was not dancing with glee when the government convened on June 12, 1967. The question on everyone's lips was: "What are we going to do with a million and a half Arabs?" Menachem Begin, then a minister in the unity government, was just as worried as everyone else. "Well, we can't throw them all into the sea," he remarked, according to the protocols of the meeting, clearly agitated.

We now have a ticking bomb in the form of 3.5 million Palestinians, and we're on the last lap of an attempt to separate from them, end the occupation and get this country some permanent borders. So what do these Gaza settlers, West Bank settlers who are next in line, and Likud rebels like Netanyahu, Katz and Naveh, think, when they say no to the pullout? That we can lord over another people forever?

There are some who say that the father of unilateral disengagement, Ariel Sharon himself, is responsible for the foot-dragging in carrying it out. As a military man, he should have known that allowing too much time to elapse between reaching a decision and implementing it, is Enemy No. 1 in such an operation. First a series of deferments, 20 months after starting to talk about painful concessions and 15 months after deciding to withdraw from Gaza; then a bumbling lack of preparedness on how to remove the Gush Katif settlers and deal with them once they're out. Is it any wonder that the extremists are sure they will manage to push off E-day, scheduled for August 16, 2005, until "after the holidays?" In the event that Sharon does stick to the timetable, these extremists (chiefly those living outside Gaza) are planning to turn the evacuation into a day of blood and gore, paralyzing life all over the country.

In answer to my question, the prime minister assured me this week that the date of evacuation is absolute and final. "We have government decisions, all properly endorsed, and they will be implemented. Those who are pushing for postponement are hoping there will be no pullout - but believe me, there will be. Oh yes, there will. The problem is not the settlers but people from outside."

"I've given strict orders that we will not tolerate any disruption of life," Sharon added. "The evacuation is painful, but it has to happen. We have to think about tomorrow."

In answer to another question, he said: "These people who were at the forefront of the settlement movement will be asked to go on to even bigger things. The evacuation of Gaza is not the end of the Jewish people. It's true we had a dream, but not all dreams come true."

It was clear from the prime minister's words that his mind is made up and he's not about to move from his position one iota. "Not even God could budge him now," said someone from Sharon's inner circle.

The defense establishment estimates that the evacuation will take three weeks. The settlers have the option of sparing themselves and the people of Israel the heartbreaking scenes of bloodshed and brute force. The die is cast, my friends. Leave the territories with dignity. Hold your heads high, and come home. The State of Israel is also Eretz Yisrael.

God I feel bad for them having to leave all that they have dreamed and built. Yet, I know that this is the best thing for Israel and for Palestinians too....although I still keep coming back to "what are the palestinians going to do for a living?" and "Will they just use the closer terrirtory to launch rockets that land on larger centers of population"? But, I would say if Sharon says it must be done, a man who has given his whole life...his whole heart and soul...to the nation, then by God, I'm going to support him. It would be like FDR saying that we do need to reform Social Security, you know I would not believe anyone else, but I would believe it if he said it....see what I mean? Yet, there is also a stubborn side of me that would rather die than see Noel and rd, get one inch of what they want, because I don't believe they want anything more than an end to Israel...so I too am torn...I can only imagine how some of those fighting this mass population transfer feel.

Well, the comparison of Nazis to Israel is a bit much, but the Haaretz article does point out what a mess the occupation has been, and why it can't go on, at least not with our support. When the writer says "If the public only knew how deeply the state is dipping into its pockets" that means our pockets. When he asks "That we can lord over another people forever?", remember that means they lord over them in our name forever. All that money and good will for what? Just so we can listen to the whining that we have not done enough, when they have to "compromise" by leaving land that never belonged to them? That we have shattered their "Dream", with no regard to the fact it has been a nightmare for the rest of the planet? Believe me, they will never be thankful or satisfied, they think we owe it to them.

right....sure...we pay everyone's salary, we provided all the weapons, we bought all the land...we let them immigrate there...we created the holocaust which drove people there....we created these people called terrorists that say they are called Palestinians who think they owned all this land before, and THE ISRAELI'S JUST SIT BACK AND COLLECT OUR CHECKS? Sure, that's it! Now you know why it's so easy for me to support the settlers! If you believe what you just wrote, then how and why doesn't it apply to the WHOLE OF ISRAEL? If you make those arguments that their dream was our nightmare, then you are also saying that Israel, no matter what the boundaries, are on someone elses land, and therefore, logically if follows that ANY land would be consistent with your logic...so what you really want is the fall of Israel PERIOD!

Who notifies you automaticlly when someone writes the word "Israel" anyway? It sure is quick? I have to admire your ability to think single-mindedly about how many different ways you can trash Israel...quickly...and probably on 100 different forums for which you probably have some monitor that allows you to do exactly that. It's amazing!

Key question.

At the start of the Zionist movement, in the early 1900s, "Palestine" consisted of cities and towns, mostly Arab, but some Jewish. And some mixed. Most of the land was owned by absentee landlords, many of whom were Lebanese (that is, after 1940 when Lebanon was created).

As Jews poured into Palestine, which they did by BUYING the land they settled from those absentee landlords (often with financial help from the Jewish National Fund), they established farms and othe businesses that attracted many disenfranchised Arabs from Damascus, Bagdhad, Beirut, etc., to pour into Palestine as well to work the jobs the Jews had created.

This is really how Palestine, after 400 years of mismanagement by the Ottoman Turks, came to be repopulated with Arabs as well as Jews in the 20th century .

Until Arafat's Intefada, Palestinians routinely worked for Jewish businesses- - farming, construction, you name it. Border crossings were no big deal. The Arabs were able to earn a living (and the pride that comes with it), and the Jews had a ready source of labor.

Suicide bombing changed that forever. And Arafat replaced honest work with "baksheesh" for his cronies. There is no pride that comes with that. Only shame.

At this point in time, no matter what the final borders will be, the "state" of Palestine will NOT be able to have access to Israeli jobs. Thank Arafat for that. Thr Israelis have already replaced their Arab workers with "guest workers" from South East Asia. The Palestinians' bridge has been burned by Arafat.

So what will they do to earn a living in their new "state?"

That is certainly the key question.

Well that's about right, except the land was mostly taken at gunpoint, someone bought 6%. There are Arab terrorists, but Israel was also founded by terrorists, and I don't like either kind. I mean in what way was Irgun better than Hizbolah or Hamas?

No, I am not saying it applies to the whole of Israel, because Israel is a nation recognized and aknowledged throughout the world. Like America and many other nations , it came about by taking it by force from someone else, which is just the way it is. The Occupied Territories are presently not part of Israel, and the occupation is illegal, in violation of the 4th Geneva convention and several UN resolutions. Pardon me for not being on board for signing up America to be the sponsor of this crime. Pardon me for not wanting to adopt all of Israel's enemies.

The reason I post on this subject so much is because the media and our political leaders lack the spine to say what needs to be said. Just listen to the embarrassing speech Polosi gave at AIPAC.

I do admire AIPAC's ability to sign up America for a cause most dubious, it's amazing what several million dollars will do!

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0527-23.htm

Can you imagine the attention that would be given by the US media if John Zogby was about to be indicted under the espionage act? Front page news! With Neocons and Neolibs trying to outdo themselves pronouncing the eminent invasion of Islamic fundementalists overrunning America. But Steve Rosen and Keith Weissman get a free pass.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/581817.html

They bought, at most, 6% of the original land that became Israel. And since Israel has since taken more land, the portion of it that was purhased is even less.


Are you saying that the Arabs should be hopeful for the crumbs that fall from the table of the Israeli's Jeff? Would you like to return to your homeland to work for the people who stole it from you? To do the most menial jobs? There is no pride that comes with that. Only shame.

Maybe if we did not subsidize the economy of Israel, Israelis would have to do all the filthy "honest" work themselves.

I am encouraged to see you are so worried about the Arabs though, so I am sure your next suggestion is the we pour billions of dollars of our money into Palestine every year.

Thank you Heart.
Settlers who leave peacefully should be viewed as heroes for peace. And Arabs who have honored the ceasefire should be viewed favorably as well.
This is not a time for blame or recrimination, but a time to move toward peace.
It is fair that both sides move with caution. But it is a time for movement.
I did read in Haaretz-Online the story that Hizbullah had 12,000 missiles available, but the spokesperson for Hizbullah also said that the missiles were for defensive purposes only.
It is my hope that those missiles sit in stockpiles till they rust away or are destroyed after a final settlement is reached.
After all is said, the true purpose and ultimate goal of any conflict should be to bring peace, not win advantage.
No settlement can be acceptable to everyone. Any settlement that returns a since of peace and security for both sides can only be an improvement.
Should either party, or outside forces violate an agreement, if it be reached, the world will see. I have written in places that a goal should be to make the desire for terrorism a mute point.

Haim Yavin, a popular Israeli news anchor, toured the occupied areas and has created a documentary which blasts the settlers and the government. The settlers are none too happy and are calling for Yavin to resign or be fired. Care to venture a guess if the US press will air his report?

Yahoo News

Amazing story. Israel is a nation held hostage by right wing religious zealots just like the USA.
The New York times did a story...
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/31/internat.../31mideast.html

Nearly the entire world, virtually every nation is screaming at the settlers to leave. Even their own government, which offered the invitation in the first place is asking them, telling them to leave.
The Haaretz piece and Heart's comments struck a chord with me. With the tumult coming from both sides, why not add another voice to rachet down the rhetoric and just ask them to leave, honoring them their potential sacrifice, as well as recognizing that Arabs on the other side who have strong feelings who have resisted making attacks during the ceasefire should be recognized.
Peaceful gestures harbour peace; war-like gestures harbour war. Is it not better to light a single candle than to curse the darkness?
Yes, I would love to see the piece you are talking about, I saw the Haaretz story about it.
Hell, I would throw confetti, lead the parade, bring a covered dish for the party welcoming any settler who peacefully left Gaza without being dragged out kicking and screaming.

Thanks Poet. 8000 people are going to lose their homes, their communities, there jobs, businesses and all of this is traumatic because in most cases there was nothing there, and in many other cases, before the intafada, everyone lived reasonably well together. So, it is very hard on them, and I do feel for them.

Noel and rd and jonnap....all of the sources you are citing are from ISRAELI'S OWN MAIN STREAM MEDIA....all of the critical pieces you find, and post, are to be found coming from where? The NY TIMES, HA'ERETZ, YAHOO....that's not exactly indymedia portland you know?

I don't want any aid going to Indonesia, Vietnam, or how about any aid going anywhere...I don't want the 3 billion of aid going to Egypt all for what? Because they get paid 3 billion a year NOT to have a war! That's ridiculous. They give nothing back to us but suicide bombers. Yet, you unfailingly criticise Israel over all others, but fail to ever acknowledge all of the things Israel has given back to the US. All of this is not about "the settlers", and you know that it isn't, it never has been.

The recruits for 911 and 10 years earlier for the first WTC bombng were hatched before the start of the Intafada. As bin Laden was putting his plans together, Clinton, Arafat and Barak were at the negotiating table making peace. The terrorists said it was because we support their corrupt leaders....and they want a Caliphate to replace their stifled economies and regain their honor because they haven't done WELL since the 14th century and that is all our fault. So, when we give 3 billiion a year to support the Egyptian regime (which they would like to be replaced by the Muslim Brotherhood from which these terrorists orginated) we are doing the very thing that the Al Queda and affiliates are complaining about. Therefore, these other things are equally part of the conflict as Israel ever could possibly have been. The supposition that by supporting Israel, gave us the same enemies as Israel, is negated when you look at the Arab world to figure out what the problems are there.

The hijackers were from a remote and devoutly Wahabist section of Saudi Arabia, and the others were from Egypt....the place we give 3 billion a year to right? So, your continued harping about helping Israel, and this causing us to have there enemies is specious.

There is a world-wide Muslim movement, in Kashmir, Chechnya, the Philipines and Thailand, but never a mention of them from you,,,,oh no...it must be this little tiny place called Israel which just has the damned insistence on EXISTING in spite of all of the obstacles, while other arab countries try various alternatives!

By covered by the US media I am talking about television coverage- where the great majority of Americans get their news. It would be great if the entire documentary was aired on on PBS or one of the other major networks -where the average US citizen could hear a point of view seldom heard on US television.

The US is hated for many reasons; for our former support of Sadam, our support for the dictators in Egypt and other parts of the Arab world and YES for our support for Israel.

One big difference between the aid for Egypt and that for Israel: the $3 million going to Egypt is keeping the peace, can not say the same for the money going to Israel.

You are hedging....you expect television coverage, but you don't even see what I see on television then, because these stories are told! Israeli television is constantly showing different views, so don't try to dodge it! MUCH WORSE is happening all over the world, that never even gets to the NY times, or Yahoo or PBS! It's all Israel, all the time for you folks so I guess you just want to see it on television as often as you think about it, and you have the whole thing blown out of proportion!

YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE TO PAY PEOPLE TO NOT ATTACK THEIR NEIGHBORS! That's sick! Don't make excuses for that!

You also did not answer any of my questions about how and why this is so damn important in the grand scheme of "our enemies"...

Of course it is, Israel is in violation of Geneva and all those UN resolutions only when Israelis are not actually living in Israel.

Israel's existence is a given. In Israel. The problem is when they insist on existing in places that are not Israel. And expecting us to endorse it, and take all the heat that comes with it.

You have to wonder why Haim Yavin, no wild eyed radical, said...


and...


and...

We care because US taxpayers are paying for it. That is the huge difference you refuse to acknowledge.

Israeli press is much more critical than US about the actions of the Sharon government. The left still has a voice in Israel, unlike the US where the the neocon AIPAC bunch spout the party line- Sharon's that is.

Well, RD, it turns out that the Brits were given Palestine and TransJordan as the "spoils of WW I". That is a typical outcome of a war. So it is IRRELEVANT what percentage of the land the early settlers bought - - - after the San Remo Conference in 1922, the Brits controlled the rest anyway.

The United Nations authorised a Jewish and a Arab State in British Mandatory Palestine, as was their right to do. The Jews accepted and declared statehood; the Arabs declined and within 24 hours, were at war to drive the Jews into the Sea.

After the 1949 armistice, the new State of Israel had different borders than what the UN had proposed. That is a typical outcome of a war.

After the 1967 six-day war, the State of Israel had even more different borders than what the UN had proposed. That is a typical outcome of a war.

When wars are fought, borders change. And the losers can complain all they want.

It doesn't change a thing.

Personally, I prefer settling things peacefully. I support the Gaza pullout, and I hope it goes peacibly. I support a pullout from most (but not all) of the West Bank. Why not all?

Because the 1949 borders do not provide security. They never did. So Israel would be stupid to return to them. Israel will pullout of most of the West Bank (as soon as SOMEBODY polices the area). But my guess is that the "new border" will be approximately where the barrier runs now.

The Moral?

Half a loaf is better than no loaf at all.

To quote Ben Gurion: "We wanted a Jewish State, a Democratic State, in the Biblical Lands of Israel. Well, two out of three ain't bad."

OK So the UN with pressure from Truman the land was stolen. That makes it a wonderful thing.

To quote Ben Gurion:"There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" As recorded by Nahum Goldmann "The Jewish Paradox"

"Stolen" is a loaded word. The USA was "Stolen" from the Indians. Central Europe was "Stolen" from the Huns. Great Britain was stolen from the Picts, Celts, and Druids. Human history is a legacy of people sweeping across the globe "stealing" other people's property.

Truman didn't have to "pressure" the UN - - he merely stepped up to the plate and "recognized" the new State they had made possible.

Aparantly, the UN agreed that the post-war world needed a homeland for the Jewish People, quite corectly because of the Holocaust. And perhaps that is indeed "The Jewish Paradox."

I think it is just one more example of the sweep of history.

Exactly, The USA was stolen from the indigenous tribes, not an admirable thing, but that is the way it is. Human history does indeed have such a legacy, but I just don't know why we have to fund more of it.


The UN was pressured by Truman, much to the consternation of people in his own state department. Loy Henderson, Director, Near Eastern and African Affairs had this to say (from the Truman Library)










http://www.trumanlibrary.org/oralhist/hendrson.htm

So, RD, it appears that we are in agreement that "stealing" land from indiginous peoples, while not admirable, is the way the world works. So I take it your only beef is that the USA "gives" Israel 3 Billion dollars a year?

We give the same dough to Egypt, for which we get nothing in return (oh, excuse me- - I forgot - -we get terrorists).

At least Israel (who SPENDS the whole 3 Billion on American made Military Equipment, creating employment in the last remaining manufacturing sector we have) supplies us with very good intel, and occasionally does some dirty work for us that we cannot do ourselves.

So, considering that we have already wasted 100 times more than that in Iraq, for which we have NOTHING, maybe Israel is a pretty good investment.

No. We help Israel illegally occupy other peoples land. I have said that repeatedly, and you have ignored it. Yes, that has been the way the world works, but can you tell me why we should keep funding more of it? At least we do agree that the state of Israel came about in a way that is "not admirable".

Good point, I would stop giving them aid as well.

Israel does not spend the whole 3 billion on American Weapons, but when they do, they use them to do all that "dirty work" that makes us more enemies. Not a real good return on investment there.

I guess I just don't share your enthusiasm for a Nation whose Origin was "not admirable" and does "dirty work" and who continue to violate Geneva and a raft of UN resolutions. And do it in our name, which is far more of a problem than the 3 billion.



No. See Loy Henderson prediction above, he was dead right. No "investment in Israel" and we very well might not have Iraq as an enemy.

We only have Iraq as an "enemy" because Bush INVADED their "country."

And he only invaded it because they have 11% of the world's OIL.

Do you think he would have invaded if they had 11% of the world's broccoli?

this country allegedly gives about 1.5% of its budget in foreign aid. most of the money, to whatever country is designated for specific programs, many of which benefit specific industries. It is as much corporate welfare as alleged foreign aid.
I am no apologist for Israel, the occupation is wrong. But to think that Israel can just sit idly by and trust the arab world to accept their presence is absurd. Hopefully someday, maybe soon, if the occupation ends, and a free palestinian state emerges, both sides will accept the rights of the other to exist. Though no fan of Reagan, was his policy not "trust and verify.", a policy that emerged while negotiating with Mikhail Gorbechev...

Harretz Last update - 09:07 02/06/2005
The weariness from Jerusalem
By Meron Benvenisti

The cognoscenti and celebrities of Jerusalem have been extremely busy in anticipation of "Jerusalem Day," which falls next week. Producers, journalists, researchers, demogogues, rabbis and those who predict the messiah will come are all preparing for their great moment, the day on which the conquest of East Jerusalem in the 1967 war is marked.

Once upon a time, when the idea was conceived to add this day to the calendar, already overloaded with patriotic memorial days, it was known as "Jerusalem Liberation Day." But it soon became clear that this name was false and cynical; the liberation meant subordination of the Arab population and the day became a day of mourning for one-third of the city's residents.

Then they began calling it "Jerusalem Unification Day," until the intifada arrived and tore asunder the illusion of "unity." By default, the present banal name, "Jerusalem Day," remained, but the event itself is not as neutral as its name: it is an expression of antagonism and xenophobia, a chance to hold arcane ceremonies of allegiance and to nurture nationalistic and religious myths.

It appears that the task of the cognoscenti and celebrities is becoming more and more difficult: as it grows more routine, the day is in danger of drowning in a deep yawn of boredom; and indeed, what innovations can one make after almost 40 years? Perhaps it is no coincidence that the only secular group that celebrates in the streets of Jerusalem - in addition to the parades by religious zealots - are the "pioneers" of the kibbutzim and moshavim. An organization that lives on its past glory and present-day trading in real estate salutes a city that is locked in the dream of its past grandeur and present misery. Even its sacred anthem is derived from a Basque folk tune. Only a city where boredom, apathy and insensibility reign supreme could tolerate the nonfunctioning of its mayor who, since he was elected two years ago, has evaporated into thin air.

But why seek comparisons from the field of psychology when the statistical data clearly speak for the extent of disappointment and weariness from the "Jerusalem syndrome:" the number of people leaving the city - young, secular and professional people - is continually growing. The civic leaders chase after those disenchanted Jerusalemites and attempt to hold them back by extending the municipal borders of the city to include all the satellite suburbs that the escapees have set up.

Political constraints make it imperative to employ only selective annexation steps: in the west of the city, within Israel's sovereign boundaries, municipal areas are annexed by administrative means, and in the east, in the West Bank, "settlement blocs" are expanded by expropriating lands. At the same time, a terrifying separation wall is being set up, tearing the urban fabric of the Palestinian city and warping the joint metropolitan layout.

Fast train lines to Tel Aviv and Modi'in, "ring roads" with tunnels and bridges, giant construction initiatives, haphazard Palestinian building aimed at saving lands earmarked for expropriation, will turn a giant area stretching from Modi'in and Beit Shemesh to the outskirts of Jericho, and from Ramallah to the outskirts of Hebron, into a gargantuan metropolis. In this huge urban space, chaotic planning, an irreconcilable national struggle for hegemony over the physical space and chronic violence will prevail.

In this grotesque expansion of Jerusalem lies the dynamic of collapse from within the "eternal city," for the absurdity of spreading Jerusalem's holy spirit over hundreds of kilometers and more than one million people will become apparent even to the most zealous Jew or the most extreme Muslim. The city administration will not be capable of running the strife-torn area and numerous Israelis will ask why they need to deal with hundreds of thousands of people who do not want to be ruled by them and to pay for expensive services for them.

These questions are already being raised, even among Likud supporters, and they spur people to distance themselves from the old myths. It is possible to foresee a slow process of shedding the myths of the past about the eternal city. It will not be long before the phrase, in Hebrew and Arabic, "Jerusalem, the holy city," will once again be applied to the original site - the Old City and what is known as "the Holy Basin." This area will turn into a museum-like "heritage site," a center for pilgrims and tourists that will be administered jointly by representatives of the communities involved.

Attempts to use the name of Jerusalem to fan religious and nationalistic sedition will not succeed because the residents will no longer believe in the heroic illusions associated with this name. The remainder of the metropolitan area, which will gradually peel off from the city's core, will be conflict-ridden and difficult to govern but those responsible for it will, at least, be free of the need to cope with the heavy burden of the tragic past connected with the name of Jerusalem, which paints every temporal problem with a hallowed tint.

Perhaps here we can find an important lesson: Jerusalem's name must not be taken in vain; the distinctive problems of the holy city must be isolated from the temporal problems that exist also in other cities, and woe unto those who try to turn a faulty traffic light in Jerusalem into a cosmic problem. The weariness from Jerusalem can only strengthen this insight.

I am no apologist, either, ppj. Israel KNOWS the occupation is wrong (except for the Haredi, most of whom are from Brooklyn), and desperately NEEDS to give it back. Otherwise, simple demographics will force Israel to either be a non-Jewish state, or to become an apartheid state.

Some choice.

I think Sharon is on the right track (I am NO fan of his, BTW) in getting out of Gaza, a land area four times the size of Manhattan, in which 1.1 million Palestinians live in squalor on 80% of the land and 6,000 jews live in comfort on the remaining 20%. Clearly, this is not a situation that will lead to good relationships.

With the West Bank, a redrawing of the green line is in order, if the Israelis want to be secure, which is their right to want and to have. The "free palestinian state" that emerges will have to be unique in the Arab world. It will have to be modern, technologically advanced, and maintain a western-style infrastucture of laws and banking to encourage investment.

And they have to do this without oil.

Israel has no oil either, and while it has a legacy of support from the USA and Jewish fundraisers around the world, its people are its greatest resource. They are well educated, and they value education enormously.

And it really IS POSSIBLE to catapult a backward culture into the modern age. The Israelis are doing it right now with the Falasha children (too late for their parents) from Ethiopia.

Perhaps the Palestinian people, who (aside from the terrorists) are well educated, can be the "new Israelis" of the Arab world.

Oh, I just woke up.

Excuse me.

http://www.deepikaglobal.com/ENG4_sub.asp?...newscode=105796

Arms challenge awaits Hizbollah after Lebanon poll

BEIRUT, Jun 2 (Reuters) Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah is arguably Lebanon's most powerful leader and the prowess of his Hizbollah fighters gives him prestige far beyond its borders.

He has nothing to fear when Lebanon's phased parliamentary polls move south on Sunday, with victory assured for Hizbollah in alliance with Amal, the other main pro-Syrian group in the Shi'ite Muslim heartlands bordering Israel.

The Amal-Hizbollah ''steamroller'' is set to sweep the region's 23 seats in the second stage of elections that began in mainly Sunni Muslim Beirut last Sunday with a landslide win for the son of assassinated former Prime Minister Rafik al-Hariri.

But Nasrallah will need all his political skill to deal with changes in Lebanon now that Syrian troops are gone and to fend off US-led pressure on Hizbollah to abandon its weapons.

''Any thought of disarming the resistance is madness,'' Nasrallah told ecstatic crowds at a liberation rally in the south last week to mark the fifth anniversary of Israel's withdrawal from Lebanon after relentless Hizbollah attacks.

Vowing to fight any forcible attempt to disarm his guerrillas, he said Hizbollah had a hidden arsenal of more than 12,000 rockets that created a ''balance of terror'' with Israel.