Well, as it was to turn out to be up here where I am in OUR America, it was quite a nice day when I got up this morning, and so, I got up and got dressed up one more time again in my "marching suit", which is a navy blazer and grey slacks, and I went down to town, to march in the Memorial Day Parade that they have down there, every year, or they have so far, anyway, and of that, I am glad, for to me as a disabled Viet Nam combat veteran, the thought alone of getting to march in one of these Memorial Day parades one more time, before I am gone, has become a sort of therapeutic exercise that I indulge myself in, during the cold months of the year, when one wonders if one will actually live through to see another spring bloom again, let alone get to march in one more parade, before the roll call is called up yonder, and I must be there!

And from my experience marching today, I think these Memorial Day parades are really a good therapy for all of us as a nation, and so I am writing these words while these thoughts are still fresh in my mind, so as to be able to say why that is so, from my perspective as a disabled combat veteran now grown old, here in OUR America.

And if this parade that I marched in today was not therapy for a nation, I think it certainly was for the "community", and that is where it always has to start, doesn't it?

First with us, then with OUR community, and then with OUR nation!

And it does have to start someplace, the healing that is, after war is done, and the veterans come "home" once again, and so a parade is as good a place as any for that to start, and then continue, year after year, as it has been doing with me, anyway, since I got back to here in January 1970, to what were some quite bad years for OUR America, what with Kent State and all of that business now better left forgotton, out of sight, and therefore, out of mind!

And maybe in the end, these parades on this one day, year after year, give us veterans a much better "recipe" or "method" than any other "non-integrative" therapy so as to gradually keep re-integrating ourselves back into this society that we left all those years ago, to go off to war, and for many of us, to never ever be the same again, and that just is a fact!

The "parade" as a place of healing, before we are all gone to our final resting places, with things undone, and words left unsaid that cause hurts of days gone by to continue to fester, and here I am talking specifically about the "hurts" of the Viet Nam times, although we are now back into another cycle, where once again, it is all happening all over again, the hatreds, the divisiveness, the misery, just as it was back then, when I came back to this place, and wondered, quite truthfully, where in the HELL I had landed when I got off that plane which was supposed to have brought me back home, but instead, had left me stranded in a place totally foreign and alien to me, which was OUR America on the day that I got back!

As a Viet Nam veteran, I suppose it is something that I am marching at all, because for a number of years, here in OUR America, Viet Nam veterans were unwelcome at these types of gatherings, and that unwelcomeness was palpable, tangible, and very uncomfortable, and so it was to be, for quite awhile, actually, at least up here where I am, and that was not a good thing for OUR America at all, or so I thought anyway, and so, one day, I decided to go down to town as a veteran in my "uniform" and simply march in one of these parades, as a unit of one!

Who is to say you can't after all, when it is a public parade on a day that is supposed to be related somehow or other with veterans and the sacrifices some have made, with their lives, so that others of us could have parades in their honor?

And so, that is what I did!

And in the course of doing that, well, I have learned much, is all that I can say!

One of the things I have learned is something about "coming back home" after having been away in a war, and that "something" I learned is that YOU yourself are the one who really has to do that, get yourself "back to home", and if you got Viet Nam on your mind all the time when you are here, then you are not "home" at all; to the contrary, you are lost and getting more and more so, each minute that you allow that "condition" to endure!

So what is this thing of marching in a parade, in a small town, or a big city for that matter?

Well, after all these years of doing that, marching, all I know is what it means to me, and that is that, but since today was Memorial Day, and since I did march today, and since I have been at this thought process for over thirty years now, I became moved this afternoon to record my thoughts on the subject, for whatever they are worth!

As for me, today, what I was thinking about as I marched is how nice it is to see all those people who turn out for the parade, families, or just individuals, and to feel the connection between them, and myself, that exists on some higher plane, I would say, than intellectual reasoning, and so is hard to define with words, but when experienced in the way that I experienced it today while marching on Memorial Day, it is quite tangible, and real, nonetheless.

Today, as I marched, my job was to carry the folded American Flag, which is what I really like to do, if that honor is accorded to me, as it was today, by my peers, I suppose they would be, in my marching group, which is all Viet Nam veterans like myself!

SO!

Today, I was not a person marching, rather, I was a symbol of something, and as I was marching along, carrying that folded flag, I realized the power that is associated with that symbol, which is the same American Flag that is maligned so much these days, just as it was during the Viet Nam times so long ago, now.

And what made me realize this "power" today IS that tangible connection between me carrying the flag, and those people on the side of the road who are seeing that symbol, and so, are having their thoughts of the next moment shaped by that image that they are seeing right then, which is me, an old man now, in a suit, carrying a flag, marching by, down the road, as if that flag were a precious thing, to be guarded with my very life, if needed!

All of a sudden, the FLAG becomes more than a piece of cloth folded up in the outstretched hand of a Viet Nam veteran, it becomes a living thing, BECAUSE the hand that holds that flag is itself a living thing, with a mind behind it, and the eyes of the assembled crowd that look upon that hand and flag are also living, and connected to human minds, human consciousness, and so, the very manner in which I carry myself as I carry that flag shapes the image OF WHAT OUR AMERICA REALLY CAN BE that is formed in the minds of all of these fellow Americans that are watching that folded flag in my outstretched hand, as I go marching by, AND THAT IS WHAT I LEARNED TODAY, after almost sixty years of living on this earth of OURS, which is just how connected we all can be, if only we can set our minds to trying to be so!

I am a veteran, and I am an American, and I do believe in what that flag represents, WHICH IS EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US - or none at all, and when I personally am marching with that flag IN MY HAND, that is my message to all who are there watching, WE ARE ALL ONE, and I am you!

Yes, America, that is right!

We are all one!

ONE NATION, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY, AND JUSTICE, FOR ALL!

That is the message that my mind is transmitting to all of the candid world, anyway, when that folded American Flag IS in my hand on Memorial Day, as I go marching by; and who can stop me from thinking that, or acting as if that were true, 24/7, as I go marching by?

And that answer is no one can, no one at all, but myself!

It can only cease to be true when I cease to think that way, and so ......

Now it is this afternoon, and the bands are all gone home, and the marchers dispersed, and my suit on its way to the cleaners tomarrow, and then to be put away until the next parade for me, which is Flag Day, on the 12th of June, I believe that is, BUT ....

The good feelings that I gained in that parade today still fill me, and to be truthful, as an older American, I am savoring them!

Today, for a short time, at least, we all were one, and when one can feel the power for goodness inherent in that relationship, it makes one want to seek it all that much harder, and so, to me, that is why these parades are such good therapy, for all of us, not only in OUR America, but in all the world, as well!

A parade not to honor war, not to honor killing, not to honor barbarity and brutality, but to honor life, instead, and the possibilities for good that it contains!

When I march in my suit with that flag in my hand, that is my message, and when it is a parade for veterans, who can stop me from making that display?

And that answer of course, is only GOD can, and why on earth would he or she want to do that, since that is where the message comes from in the first place, which is the same Divine Providence that was right there as OUR companion on the day this nation was born!

And so ......

Welcome home Livyjr. Beautiful essay.

That's a kind thought, cardinal, thank you for expressing it in here!

And hopefully, cardinal, any other veteran from every other war reading your words above here will take this as a universal welcome home, which I am sure that it would be, coming from you, as it has!

A kind thought, indeed!

Thanks once again!

Livyjr,

I can appreciate that Viet Nam veterans who bore (unjustly) the rage of the anti-war movement when they came back home, would celebrate and be healed by annual parades,( as a gay I know a little about the power of parades.)
The only reason this anti-war member responded to this thread, is yesterday I heard mention of a HUGE Viet Nam welcome home celebration in Branson this year, and thought you might be interested in attending.

http://www.operationhomecomingusa.com/index.html

My other job on Memorial Day, yesterday, another one that I look forward to all winter, is playing either Amazing Grace or Taps at the Viet Nam memorial down there in Albany, New York, where I went to march yesterday in that parade that I talk about above here.

We veterans gathered at the memorial a little before 8:30 A.M.and we had a very simple ceremony, if ceremony it in fact be!

There was a wreath, and two Gold Star mothers, accompanied by Mr. Mike Breslin, the Albany County Executive, and His Honor, Gerald Jennings, the Mayor of Albany, simply walked up to the base of the monument and set the wreath, without a single, solitary word being said in the process!

No grandiloquent speechs such as were given at Arlington yesterday about how proud any of these names on that monument were to have a grand opportunity to die for America so that we would be free over here!

No, none of that at all!

And what living Viet Nam combat veteran, who has seen first hand how once real living people like those who belong to those names up there on that monument got the "grand opportunity" to be up there, in the first place, is going to believe any of that hoo-hah that politicians who never themselves went to war seem to like to spew forth to the unwitting public on Memorial Day, that people like us are just panting and salivating for a chance to go off to some foreign land, and die like a dog in the dirt, for something called "freedom" over here?

If you are dead in a place like Viet Nam, or Iraq, you are dead, and nobody over here is any freer for that, because we are already free, and have been now since 1776!

How is dying in Viet Nam or Iraq going to change that equation?

And the simple answer is that it is not going to do doodly-squat, which is why we Viet Nam veterans have no political speechs of that nature at our simple ceremony on Memorial Day morning, like it was once again, yesterday!

In fact, His Honor and Mike Breslin never said a word!

What could they say that would change anything, after all?

And Mike Breslin, who to me is a real gentleman, would be the first to know that, since he himself is a Viet Nam veteran, and on that day, he is not a politician or elected official, he is just one more of us, and that is apparent to everyone who is there to see!

And I think that is all a part of the healing process, for us, anyway, this kind of "democritization" that occurs among us, this small group of Viet Nam veterans that gathers at the memorial on Memorial Day, to have our simple ceremony, that is almost completely without words, at all!

There, we are all just people!

Plain people, without "station", without "rank"!

Just people!

Simple people standing around, thinking OUR thoughts, and remembering those names as the flesh and blood that they once were, and always will be, in spirit, so long as we are there to remember them as the flesh and blood that they were, before they donned a uniform and went off to die in the mud and jungles of Viet Nam.

After the wreath was set, there is a firing squad that fires off a couple of volleys, to let heaven know that there are veterans on the way, and then a bugle plays Taps, and then, I finished yesterday with a verse of Amazing Grace on my penny whistle, and some tears were shed, and some thoughts were thought, and then, it was over!

Just like that!

Life must go on, and those people who really are those names up there would be the first to tell us all that - "life is for the living, so, get on with it!"

Is that disrespectful to the dead to think that way?

Not to me, it isn't because those would be my very words to the assembled if I were up there on that wall, instead of some other name up there, and if people then went out and did that, well, I would feel good about that, from my own place in heaven, where I am sure these others are watching down on us, as we fumble our way forward down here on this earth of ours, trying to live our lives as those names up there on that wall would have us do, if they were here with us, right now, to tell us their thoughts.

Decoration Day up in heaven!

The words to an old country song that rattles around in my head, this time of year, and so it was yesterday, for me, anyway, when I was playing Amazing Grace - "WAS BLIND, BUT NOW, I SEE!"

And so it goes .......

And underbear1, thank you for your thoughts on this essay, as well!

And thanks for posting that website, as well, not only for my information, but for the information of any other veteran who might persue these pages, as well.

And if you are "anti-war", underbear1, I would have to consider that a sign of intelligence on your part, regardless of what anyone else out there might have to think on the subject, which is certainly their freedom and LIBERTY to do so, as yours is to be against war!

I am almost sixty now, which is not old, I guess, compared to people in here like Mr. A.B., who has a generation on me, but when you are a person disabled in combat, sixty can be a real long time to be alive, and I am very aware of that, when it is thirty below zero, and you really wonder if the sun will ever shine warm on your face again, down here on this good green earth of ours!

And I have to tell you, underbear1, that it was only just yesterday, thirty-five years after I got back from Viet Nam, that I really did finally realize this "power of the parade" that you yourself must have experienced at some point in your own life, as you say above, here.

It has taken me that long to "get comfortable" walking through what really is a "gauntlet" of people, when you are in the parade itself, and you are surrounded on all sides by a crowd of people, who you do not know, at all!

And that IS what these parades were for me, at the beginning, AN ORDEAL TO BE ENDURED, just for the information that it would bring to me, about myself as a human being who has just voluntarily put himself into just about the last place he would ever expect to have himself, which would be walking through a gauntlet of people in the middle of what is to me a big city!

Yesterday is probably the very first time that I was really finally able to experience "the people", and not myself reacting to being stuck in the middle of a crowd of people that I do not know!

And so, it was a very pleasant voyage of discovery yesterday, for me, because of that!

People along the parade route actually express a joy at being alive, and having their individual freedom, to be WHO they are, as you have, underbear, or OUR sacrifices while in uniform were for nothing!

I myself have experienced the totally unrestrained aphrodisiac power of a rifle in my own hands, riding in the "GOD-seat" of a UH-1 helicopter, over free-fire zones in Viet Nam, where the only thing that separated someone from life, or death, was whether or not my finger moved, and never, never again, will I have myself put in that position of "authority" over other human beings, FOR ANYTHING, or anyone!

And that came home to me in spades yesterday, as I walked that parade route, seeing all of those faces; women, children, old folks, all looking back at me, to see who I am, walking in their midst as I was with that folded American Flag in my living hand!

WHO OF THEM IS NOT EQUAL TO THE REST OF US, is what I would ask anyone who thinks there might be some difference, like Mr. Rush Limbaugh, perhaps!

"WHO, RUSH, in that crowd of people, would you have not be there?"

WHO?

WHO in that crowd, yesterday, Mr. Rush Limbaugh, would you practiced your bigotry on?

WHO, RUSH LIMBAUGH, WOULD YOU HAVE EXCLUDED?

As for me, that answer would be no one at all, because to me, yesterday, THAT WAS AMERICA, and they all belong, and you know what, underbear1, you do too, even though you might not have been personally standing there, watching that flag in my outstretched hand marching by where you might have been standing!

In my hand, that flag IS the flag of inclusiveness, OR that flag means nothing at all, to anyone, and especially to me, the one who had the honor of walking the length of that parade route, carrying that flag for all the candid world to see!

THE FLAG OF OUR AMERICA, WHEN IT IS IN MY HAND, IS THE FLAG OF LIFE, OF HOPE, OF LIBERTY, AND JUSTICE FOR ALL, and there is where it is, with me, anyway, and so .....

"THE FLAG OF OUR AMERICA, WHEN IT IS IN MY HAND, IS THE FLAG OF LIFE, OF HOPE, OF LIBERTY, AND JUSTICE FOR ALL"


my flag says the same message, and welcome home Livyjr !

And here, at the possible expense of being labeled politically incorrect, or maybe just stupid, I have to wonder, underbear1, why, in a land of LIBERTY and JUSTICE for all, where people have a Constitutional right to privacy in their own homes, is it necessary to broadcast one's sexual preferences to the world, whether those preferences be for a person of the same sex, or not; or for nothing at all?

What possible difference does it make to anyone if a person is what is called "gay"?

And who is to do the calling, or the labeling, pray tell?

And why must we all have to know these things about someone else's sexual preferences, when that should all be a private affair?

Why must the world be told who a person is sleeping with, by that person, when that is a private thing?

When one is a human being, why is it necessary to insert this "gay" and "straight" stuff as an adjective, if that is what it is, as though that made some kind of difference to anything, at all?

I'm simply an American.

That's it!

What I do behind my closed doors is my personal business, and that is that.

That is my right to privacy, in action, and I leave it that way!

What is due Caesar OUT THERE in Caesar's world is indeed Caesar's; but that stops, right where the edge of the road meets my property, and on my property, Caesar, and what goes on in Caesar's world simply are not welcome, unless, of course, Caesar and his are coming in peace, and since Caesar generally does not know peace, Caesar and his are simply not welcome, and that includes ALL of this business of sex, here in OUR America, gay, straight or otherwise!

Don't ask, don't tell!

In fact, just the other day, a person stopped by to see a young person who comes over to help me out around the place, and that person, who I do not really know, started talking about a third person these two people knew, who apparently was now wearing a dress, although male!

When I heard this, I stopped the conversation, and I pointed out to where my property ended at the side of the road, and I told the person, "See that out there", pointing to the road, "that is Caesar's land, out there, and that is where your conversation belongs, because I do not want it in here on my land!"

Simply stated, I did not want to hear about this other person, period!

To me, if that person chooses to wear a dress, SO WHAT?

What does that do to me?

Does it diminish me in some way if this person is wearing a dress?

Does it make my life less meaningful?

Does it harm me, in any way, at all, when I am on what is my property, and that person is out there somewhere in the world, wearing a dress?

My answer to all of these things is not at all, and so, I simply don't want to know about it, or hear about it, at all!

And that is the funny thing about this thing called LIBERTY, which means exactly what it means!

SO LONG AS one's habits or customs do not harm another, then the Constitutional right to privacy prevails, and maybe there would be less strife in this world if people would keep what should be private, private, like one's sexual preferences, or predilections, or whatever!

If indeed there is such a thing as "gay", and a person, for whatever reason finds themselves there, then be content, is what I would say, and leave sleeping dogs to lie, because guess what, in America, men can wear dresses, if they so choose, and it is none of my business TO GO OUT and get in their faces about it, period, nor is it really the place of anyone else to do the same, and that is that!

However, reality is that when one goes out in public, then one has to accept what is out there, and that includes thugs, and bullies and bigots!

And it always has been, and it always will be, despite any thoughts that I might have on the subject to the contrary!

And so, SOMETIMES, the words sometimes left unuttered in public are the wisest ones of all!

I came back to this country in January of 1970 to be spit on by one side, and called a coward by the other, and if I so chose, I could have been in a real good fistfight every day of the week, if I had so chose!

But I did not so choose, and so, I had to adjust instead!

And now I am old, and what may have mattered once is no longer important, and so, now, because I am an old, harmless man with an American Flag in my hand, I can see people for who they are, AT THAT MOMENT, and I can walk by and leave them in peace, because to me, that is what the flag in my hand warrants, that there be peace among us, even though your ways, whatever they may be, are different than mine!

And this is what I am attempting to say in here about this Memorial Day Parade!

WHO IN THE ASSEMBLED CROWD SHOULD BE EXCLUDED?

And who is to do that excluding?

OUTSIDE OF OUR OWN SELVES, PUTTING OUR OWN SELVES OUT IN THE COLD, OVER A SELF-IMPOSED LABEL!

And lest it be thought that I am in any way discouraging underbear1, or anyone else in OUR America, for that matter, from speaking out on behalf on any cause they believe worthwhile, and that can be gay rights, if there are in fact any such thing, let me straighten that out right now by saying that such is not the case at all!

If underbear1, or anyone else in OUR America, for that matter, believes strongly enough in something, at any given time, and perceives a need to speak out in defense of that something, then I would urge them to consider the matter carefully, and then act with the most wisdom available to them at the time, to be the best spokesperson that they can be, for their cause!

I certainly am not the arbiter of what another should believe in, or be, and to be truthful, I am quite content with that, for me!

Rather, what I am saying is that on this particular Memorial Day, I personally had NO CAUSES whatsoever that I was personally espousing, OUTSIDE OF LIBERTY, AND JUSTICE FOR ALL, without any discrimination on my part, and that to me is what made all the difference in the world, to me!

No causes, whatsoever; which is to say, NO SIDES, NO DIVISIONS, NO CLASS!

All in the assembled crowd, rich or poor, black, white, brown, male, female, gay, not-gay, to me, were equal to me, that day, and as a consequence, all days, because tolerance for others is not a moment-by-moment thing, or it is nothing!

Being an American, to me, is one of the hardest things one can be, because an American is not supposed to hate, and that is something that I have had in my head since my earliest days as an American, when I was but a child in the company of those who had just returned to here from WWII, to a world in which they desired nothing but peace!

The dogs of war, no more!

NO HATRED FOR OTHERS, HERE IN OUR AMERICA, PERIOD!

And that is a non-negotiable, regardless, or OUR America is gone to us forever, to be replaced by nothing but a cheap imitation, if we as individuals let it be so!

Thus, this Memorial Day, I was not out there espousing war, or injustice, or intolerance, as some do when that flag is in their hand; to the contrary, ALL that I was, was just some old man walking down a parade route somewhere in OUR America, carrying a flag that can mean anything at all to anyone, at any time, in my outstretched hand, while making clear with my own bearing and demeanor that I truly believe that that is what OUR American flag really does stand for - NO HATRED, NO DIVISENESS, NO PREJUDICE, NO BIGOTRY - while it is in my hand, which I have learned over time is all the control that I will ever have in this world to help shape OUR collective destiny down here on this earth of ours as fellow human beings.

Which is to say that while that flag is in my hand, I and IT are a threat to no one at all, and that to me, is what that flag should signify to all the world, all the time: NO THREAT!

I AM A HUMAN BEING, LIKE ALL THE PEOPLE IN THE WORLD, AND I AM AN AMERICAN, TO BOOT, WHICH IS NOT SOMETHING MATERIAL, BUT IS INSTEAD, A STATE OF MIND, AND AS AN AMERICAN, WHO DOES BELIEVE IN RULE BY LAW, SO AS TO HAVE LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL, I AM NOT A THREAT TO OTHERS!

Thus, do not hate me for what another not in my control might have done with that flag in their hand, because that was not me, and I am not them, simply because of the similarities in a piece of cloth that we might both have been holding in OUR outstretched hand at any given time, here in OUR America, or out there, in the candid world as well, and that of necessity must include Viet Nam, when OUR flag was over there raining down death and destruction on those people, simply because they were there, and could not stop us, for the moment, anyway, from doing so!

When I left that place, Viet Nam, like many other veterans, I walked clean away from OUR flag, mistaken in my youth as I was, into believing that what was being done over there in the name of that flag was somehow connected to the very substance of the flag itself, and so, I no longer wanted anything to do with that flag, which had become a badge of dishonor to me, at least, because of what I saw being done in Viet Nam, in what I thought then and after, was in the name of that flag, and what it really stood for, which over there was death and destruction, and no hope at all.

And it was not to be until years later that I realized my mistake, and so went back, and picked it up, again, realizing as I did that the flag is each and every one of us, the whole kit and kaboodle, or it is nothing at all, and regardless of what someone else might have done in the name of that flag, that was simply them, and so .......

If you don't like what another is doing with the flag, or in the name of the flag, then don't do it yourself, is all you can ever really do to change anything, and that is what I have been learning all these last years, marching in these parades, carrying that folded flag, when that opportunity is afforded me, as it was this Memorial Day - SIMPLY BE THE AMERICAN THAT I BELIEVE IN BEING, AND BE CONTENT TO HAVE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY THAT DAY TO SHOW OTHERS, ESPECIALLY THE CHILDREN, WHAT ONE VERSION OF AN AMERICAN CITIZEN MIGHT LOOK LIKE WHEN THEY GOT OLD, and then, just leave it at that.

Judge not, lest ye be judged, 24/7!

Now, that brings us all to a point in here, of where we all must consider that what one might wish to be, or not be, as the case may be, is not always either accessible, or acceptable, to any given person at any given time, and so, sometimes, IT IS US WHO MUST ADJUST!

Certainly that is a rule, or guideline or whatever, that I apply to myself, 24/7, and so, I suggest it as a path for others in here to pursue, as well, for the peace and quiet and harmony that it can bring to you in your own personal life, as has been the case in my own, where I don't go out in public and criticize people for how they might dress, or the lifestyles they may adopt, so long as my path through life is not impeded, and that half of the equation is really up to me, and noone else, which brings me to a point in here that needs to have mention made of it, and that is this thing of causes like gay rights in OUR America!

Where there are already human rights in place, here in OUR America, by virtue of the provisions of the United States Constitution, to me, that IS all we are going to get, and if we make it our personal cause to have "human rights" subdivided into categories like gay human rights, or straight human rights, or African-American human rights, or human rights for short people, then perhaps we are setting ourselves up with a real long and hard row to hoe, and we should accept that without complaint, and then put our shoulder to the yoke until it is no longer necessary, or maybe we see that our particular paths go off in some different direction, and then without another word being said, we should just change course, and go!

Now, I myself am not gay, so far as I know, anyway, and having watched the lifestyles of some persons that I know who profess to be gay, it seems to be a lifestyle that requires an awful lot of energy to maintain, and so it has no appeal for me, at all, BUT .....

I do not throw any rocks or stones at these people, nor do I condemn them for how they live, as I do not see that to be my place down here on this earth of ours, and sometimes, underbear1, that might be the best you are ever going to get from people, which is tolerance, and if you can get that by being a sincere person, whatever your beliefs, then you have achieved something, and that is that!

And who can criticize you for how you see life today, and choose to express it, so long as you are not harming another, when tomarrow has not yet come, for any of us, and so your "book of life", like all of ours, remains as of yet not completely written!

"Judge not, lest ye be judged" is something that I thought I heard God say to me personally while I was in Viet Nam, with a rifle in my hand, judging people, and "VENGEANCE IS MINE, AND MINE ALONE" came right after that, in a towering voice, and so, today, all these years later, I continue to heed those words, 24/7, because of where they came from, in my mind, anyway, to me!

And so, today, I am tolerant, because I can afford to be!

Life down here on this earth of OURS is but a blink of an eye compared to the eternity that I believe that I am going to face in some other place afterwards, and so, why foul that nest there by my actions here, if those actions fly in the face of God's admonition to me above to judge not!

And so it goes ......

"And here, at the possible expense of being labeled politically incorrect, or maybe just stupid, I have to wonder, underbear1, why, in a land of LIBERTY and JUSTICE for all, where people have a Constitutional right to privacy in their own homes, is it necessary to broadcast one's sexual preferences to the world, whether those preferences be for a person of the same sex, or not; or for nothing at all?"

This is something most heterosexuals never need confront, but heterosexuality isn't just taught to children as normal, religiously-approved, it is taught as the ONLY way to love someone. Imagine if you see every ad, every book, every movie, every TV show, since birth telling you this is how to love someone, this is who you MUST be attracted to.............but you know you aren't.
Even then you assume you are the only one that is different. Gay Pride was needed because we refused to raise another generation to ever think they are sick, sinful, dirty, abnormal, or ALONE. I hope this helps you understand a bit of what gays/lesbians lives are like.

"You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should."

Max Ehrmann, Desiderata, Copyright 1952.

underbear1, if there is one thing that I have learned in life, it is this, which is that if there is anything that is in ample supply in this world, at least in my experience of it, it is hatred, discrimination and bigotry, and regardless of how you and I might feel about it, that equation just don't change, and so ......

That is the way it was when Jesus was down here, and from what I can see, it has not changed much at all in the intervening time, and if Jesus were to come back and openly speak out again as he did then for universal brotherhood, then my bet is that he would be back up on that cross in a hurry, beaten, bloody and dead, and that is a fact!

As for me, I was never taught heterosexuality, and I was never told, by anyone, who or how I could love, or that I even had to consider that as necessary, and so, in some ways, you do your own self an injustice by assuming that there are only two types of people in the world, when such is not in fact the case at all!

In fact, I find that if I never watch television, which I don't, the world is really quite a nice place, without that sewer of hatred spoiling the ways things can really be, here in OUR America, and so, if you want some personal peace in your own life, do as I did, and throw that damn trouble-making box right out the window and into the dumpster where it belongs.

And conversely, if you do watch the thing, don't be sucked into believing that what is on that tiny screen is at all representative of what life and people in this world are really like, because in my experience of the thing, it is wide of the mark, and quite skewed these days to boot, which means that the most abnormal stuff in life you are likely to encounter will be found on television, bur nowhere else in the world, outside of that, like this thought that people are somehow taught to be heterosexual, and that is the only way in life that one can love another.

What absolute rubbish!

How could fathers love sons, otherwise?

Is that gay?

And as to gay prejudice, well, in my experience, that sure is a real thing, for the possessors of it, the haters, of which I am not one, and as for me, well, I was first exposed to gay prejudice way back in the 1950's, in the fifth grade, to be exact, by the school bully, and I did not like it then, and I did not practice it then, and I still do not like it, or tolerate it today, and so, having made it this far, not hating, not discriminating, not mocking what I do not truly understand, well, maybe I haven't made the world a far better place than what it was, but hopefully, I haven't made it worse, and again, underbear1, sometimes, we just have to accept that that is that, and for the moment, anyway, that just might be as good as it is ever going to get!

You can tell someone, underbear1, to not be ashamed of themselves, or to not hate themselves, but they have to see the value in that, and then, they have to do the work, and sometimes, that means losing things, like bad attitudes, and that can be nigh on impossible for people to do, it seems, anyway, to me.

People don't like combat veterans with bad attitudes, and so, if I want to be around people, I have to not have the attitude, and that is solely up to me, because underbear1, regardless of who you are, you cannot make people like you the way you are, if they don't like what you are, such as a combat veteran with a bad attitude!

And I myself do not have to be gay to hear and understand the hatred in the voices of those who mock gays, and so, I might not be so ignorant as one might think on that subject, and one other thing that I must say is that just as I do not see "gay" as anything, so I do not see this "heterosexual" thing, either.

This all seems to presume that our lives are consumed by sex, and quite frankly, mine is not, and so, either way, alleged heterosexual, or alleged gay, they are both non-issues with me, and underbear1, I would suggest that you leave some room in your equation for those out here like me who just don't have any kind of sex at all on our minds, because we too do exist, and as far as I am concerned, being completely asexual is as normal as anything else, and that is how I leave it.

And maybe that is in the end the true beauty of getting old, here in OUR America, that one need no longer worry about what in reality is but a fleeting thing, which is the days of OUR lives, down here on this earth of OURS, and yours, too, underbear1, if I have any say in the matter, and I do, because I choose to!

That what carrying that flag is all about to me, underbear1, which is simply being myself, and not worrying at all what anyone else might think of this kind of gimpy old man walking down the street, holding a flag in his hand, as if it meant something not only to him, but to all the candid world as well!

Be who you are, underbear1, and trouble not what others might think about it, and have your pride while you are able.

And one day, when you get old, and perhaps you already are, then simply be content, as I am, that you did your best with what you were given, and so ......

"As for me, I was never taught heterosexuality, and I was never told, by anyone, who or how I could love, or that I even had to consider that as necessary, and so, in some ways, you do your own self an injustice by assuming that there are only two types of people in the world, when such is not in fact the case at all!"


You said you're 60, I'm 52 so we were raised in fairly similar era. Did you EVER see in any photo or story about romantic love between adults, that wasn't a man and woman? I never did. I was also never told Plato, Alexander the great, Sappho, Leonardo, Michaelangelo,Shakespere,Oscar Wilde,Elanore Roosevelt loved people of their own sex. So with no historical references to have as a role model, no contemporary media to challenge that adults loving one another are always opposite sex, then in fact we were both taught that is the ONLY way to love.

I never said we aren't taught love of parents for their children, or even that comrades and friends couldn't in some form love, but not romantic and sexual pairing.


"sometimes, we just have to accept that that is that, and for the moment, anyway, that just might be as good as it is ever going to get!'

I am not so deluded to think someday everyone will like gay people,or even want to tollerate us, but I believe we (gays and gay-friendly) have to work to make gays/lesbians treated as equals under US laws, all the laws.

underbear 1:

To be quite truthful, I never really ever gave a Tinker's damn about novels about romantic love, and I never ever really studied photographs to see what people in them were doing, and I have never practiced discrimination!

And as to history, in reading it, I was never really interested is people's sex lives, just as I was never really interested in their eating habits, or any other personal quirks, or idiosyncracities, of which there are a veritable multitude in the history books that I have read, and so .....

For me, that is about all you are going to get.

And what you are doing is practicing reverse discrimination against me, here, which makes you sound like George W. Bush, to be truthful, because you seem to have a stereotype that you believe fits all "non-gay" people, and I don't like being lumped in with crowds, whoever's they might be!

"Oh, you straight people don't know nothing!"

Well, okay, then the conversation is over!

What era we were brought up in really has little to do with anything, here, is what I think, because that presumes some kind of "cookie-cutter" upbringing for all of us, based upon some arbitrary factor such as you and I being about the same age, and that therefore, we then must have been indoctrinated in some similar fashion, and since I escaped indoctrination, by and large, the model fails immediately.

As to who Leonardo Da Vinci slept with, who gives a damn?

Or any of those other people, for that matter?

WHY MUST SEX BE SUCH AN OBSESSION IN THIS COUNTRY?

WHY!

What has happened to the concept of right to privacy?

Why is it necessary for you to have to broadcast your sexual preferences to a world that by and large does not want to hear about anybody's sexual crap, regardless of who or what it is that they are doing the deed with?

Who wants to know?

I certainly don't.

I have generally found that people who are out there bragging about their sexual exploits, and here I am referring to the "heteros", by and large have fairly empty heads, and little intelligence, and that is that.

Given that, why would one concern oneself with their idle chatter, unless of course, to that person listening in, or overhearing, or more likely, being forced to be a part of the audience, sex is all there is to life, and then, well .......

Sounds like you're stuck in a rut, to me, anyway.

What I'm saying is that the whole business is a lot of to-do about exactly nothing, because as you say, people have been sleeping with people of the same sex since the world began, and so what?

WHO REALLY GIVES A DAMN, other than someone obsessed by sex, or maybe a head shrinker or two?

I just don't need to know about it, is my point, and that comes from MY right to privacy, to not have to know what is going on between people out there in Caesar's world, which generally is a pretty wierd place regardless of what era one is talking about.

What's normal, underbear1, what's normal?

The answer is that nobody knows, and that is that!

All the rest is just a bunch of hype and B** S***, and I look at my time down here as a test of my own ability to not get caught up in any of it, and especially all of this sexual crap that seems to saturate and permeate this nation from one end to the other, with room for nothing else left over!

As to your cause, underbear1, with regard to having people understand that you too are human, and are entitled to equal protection under the law, I have to agree with you, and as an American citizen who did stand up for the United States Constitution, I would want to be one of the first to say that it applies to you, as well as it does to anyone else, or else it is a worthless document, BUT .....

The United States Constitution really only goes so far, for anyone, and as far as I can tell, it does not give anyone at all any kind of a right to a sexual practice that can be considered a national norm, or standard.

All it gives any of us is a right to privacy in the affairs of OUR homes, under OUR own roofs, and there is where your personal battle is, underbear1, in what is viewed by many as an attempt by another special interest group in OUR America to expand the meaning and intent of the United States Constitution, and that is going to be quite a task to pull off, given the momentum that must be overcome in that endeavor.

Over time, my own approach to dealing with bigots, and generally prejudiced people is to stay clean away from them, and for me, that works!

Could I change the mind of a hateful person, without the use of violence on my part?

Who knows!

Do I try, when confronted with bigotry and hate-mongering?

You bet I do.

I did the other day when I invited that young person to leave my land, and take his act back out there on the road that belongs to Caesar!

Did that solve anything?

Again, who knows, but it sure did make things peaceful again after he left, and that also works for me, and underbear1, that is sometimes the best that it is going to ever be, for each of us, down here on this earth of ours, is just a moment of temporary respite, before the next barrage or fusillade comes barreling in, and so, rearranges the priorities of our otherwise dull existences down here on this earth of ours, and underbear1, my words remain - if this is what you have been given to do in your life, then do as I do, just do it to the best of your ability, and take the lumps that come with standing up for your beliefs!

My "rewards" are not down here on earth, and I do not pretend for a minute that they are, and so I live my life down here so as to not lose something in a place that I know I am going back to, because I have been there once already, and so ....

Why foul that nest, for eternity, for a moment down here on earth, regardless?

You can't change hate, underbear1, all you can do is not practice it, yourself, and that is always where it must start!

My thoughts, anyway, for what they are worth!

"Why is it necessary for you to have to broadcast your sexual preferences to a world that by and large does not want to hear about anybody's sexual crap, regardless of who or what it is that they are doing the deed with?'

You're absolutely WRONG, the world can't get enough of sex ,sexual intrigues,romance novels, sexploitation of Hooter type waitresses, and playboy bunnies.We use sex to sell EVERYTHING, the only issue, is it's always about you and your variety of sex.Heterosexuals are the most self-centered self-serving creatures on the planet. But as long as it gives John Doe a woody, and makes him buy a corvette, everything is dandy!

I live out in the country, underbear1, and I always have, except for that period in my own life that would have to be called the Viet Nam times, and then, well, of course, I was out there in Caesar's World, and yes, I did see some of what you are depicting above here, while I was out there, and you know what, on my way home, I took great pains to check my back-trail, so as to be sure that none of that stuff followed me home, and you know what?

It didn't!

Until right now, of course, and that is because you imported those kinds of pictures into here, when I clearly never asked to see them, or to have to consider them, since that clearly is not the world that I have created by any of my actions, and so, I am not reponsible, for any of that!

I don't go to malls, or any such place where a Hooters might be in the first place, and assuming that I did go near such a place, a mall, that is, a Hooters is the last place that I would ever head for, and that would be never, or at least it has been, up to now!

Yes, that's right, America, and the candid world, as well; I've never been in a Hooters, and I don't care to go!

NOW!

How's that for being really un-American in this "anything goes, do it if it makes you feel good" world of George W. Bush, and his!

Keep it out there on the road, George, is what I say, don't bring it over onto me, because I do not want it, and I don't accept it, and I don't have to!

Keep your "sex sells" out on the road, for its currency that I just don't recognize!

And so ....

I don't give one Tinker's damn for all the Hooters in the world, and I don't care who knows it!

SO!

Yes, underbear1, you are right, and you have made a point, a very strong point, indeed, although clearly, that point is about only a certain visible segment of society, A HUGE MINORITY, I would call it, albeit a very powerful one, and in that world, yes, underbear1, exploitation of sex is indeed rampant, as you have clearly demonstrated with very convincing evidence, right above here where I am now writing these very words in response!

And so, one can draw whatever conclusions one wants to from that!

Me, I simply ignore it!

I don't live in those places where that stuff is, and I don't go to those places where that stuff is, and I don't seek that stuff, and finally, I keep that stuff out of my own private space!

IT IS NOT MINE!

AND I RESENT HAVING IT CAST UPON ME, AS YOU HAVE DONE HERE, ALONG WITH THESE LABELS THAT YOU SLING AT ME, above here.

What cause of yours does this serve, I wonder?

And how?

Would you have gay people substituted for any of these people in any of these photographs that you have taken the trouble to import into here, for whatever purposes?

Is it your position that gay people are not exploited evenly along with these heterosexual women, if indeed they are, because I sure cannot tell by looking!

SO?

Equal opportunity exploitation, then?

Is that it?

And if that is your platform, in here, so be it, as far as I am concerned!

As for me, I live out in the country, and I don't read romance novels, and you know what, I don't miss them, at all, and I never have!

Just never had that kind of liesure time to get into that stuff, and that's a fact!

That's country living as a disabled veteran, see?

Keep things simple!

Don't eat the seed corn!

Don't foul your nest!

Those things actually keep me occupied 24/7, and so ......

Well, what a long, strange trip it has been, indeed!

And so .....

There's quite a book, I think, anyway, on this veteran's "voyage home" business that we are talking about in here, ruminating, perhaps, and the title of that book is "Cold Mountain", which is a book about a man from the south who simply gets tired of all of the killing in the American Civil War, and so, he just walks away from it, much as I myself did in 1969, and in this book, well, this man sets out to walk back home again, and leave it all behind, as if that ever could be possible in this sometimes war-crazed world that we all live in, including underbear1, of course, and well, myself, too!

A moving book, if you haven't read it, and maybe it is thought-provoking as well, or at least it was for me, since in many ways, I have had similar thoughts on a lot of things as the character in that book, the one who is walking home from the fighting, and the war, and that is a fact!

Someone or other said one time, or so I was told anyway, that you can never go home again, and you know, there is a lot of substance to that, if you have ever been away, as I was, in a land where all was strange, and foreign, and extremely dangerous!

A place where 24/7, there was an automatic rifle in your hand as an extension of your very being, even when sleeping!

Jungle!

Monsoon rains!

Snakes!

And big snakes, at that, and dangerous, to boot, in the case of the cobra, which can easily be ten feet long, or more, and therefore able to raise straight up to be able to look a man right in the eye, WITH A CHALLENGE IN HIS - THIS IS MINE, LEAVE!

A place where nature itself seemed to conspire to destroy us as something unworthy to be in her presence over there, and so .....

I guess it just gives a person a whole different perspective on life, to be in a place like that, a rogue consciousness, some would call it, that marks us out forever as different from other living men, and so, I can empathize to some degree with what underbear1 is trying to say here, but only to a degree, and a small one at that, since underbear1's argument about discrimination against the alleged gay community, at least with respect to public affairs in OUR America is blunted considerably by the fact that Congressman Barney Frank in OUR United States government is a person who apparently professes to be gay, whatever on earth that really does mean, and he is treated with decorum and respect, so far as I can see.

And then there is the fact here in the State of New York where I am that Republican Governor George Pataki, and state senate "boss" Senator Joseph "Big Joe" Bruno are both openly courting the alleged "gay vote" in the State of New York, and if I recall, an openly-avowed gay person was just made the head of some large established church denomination, here in OUR America, and so ....

In fact, if I recall, the church in Washington, D.C., where George W. Bush himself goes to church, allegedly has as its minister a person who is openly tolerant of alleged gay folks, and so ....

One could say that that group or faction in OUR America has indeed come a long way into the mainstream, and perhaps underbear1 would be conserving of some emotional energy in here to be cognizant of those gains in society, and to accept them at face value, for whatever they are worth to that cause underbear1 is espousing in here, which seems to be related to integrating gay people into the exploitative world out there in Caesar's World, here in OUR America!

As for me, America?

Well, I'm just an old man now, marching down the street with a folded American flag held in my outstretched hand, as if it were something precious to me, and so ....

I live in the country as well,( for the last 3 years), but even in the country I read, I see films, I have cable, I have internet connection, and I've lived in major cities.
It doesn't matter for 99% of the country where they are, sexual content is always present. The difference is I'm an artist and seeing human bodies is not a big deal for me, and I can appreciate bodies of either sex that are beautiful. Seeing youth exploited, and told a certain unattainable body shape (without bulemia, plastic surgery, and liposuction) is a horrible disease we are teaching.
The only difference in the last 100 years is the degree of saturation of near-porn, there were French postcards of women since the 1800's, and when women were covered almost head to toe, then the view of an ankle was considered erotic.
You may well shelter yourself so completely from any provactive images, and romantic /erotic literature,but you are extremely rare in our society.
I also disagree that sexual content used to sell items, is only done by a powerful minority, they are a VERY POWERFUL MAJORITY.
Seeing sexual inuendo or even just seeing same sex couples standing near a truck they are selling , does sell to the LGBT community too, as Queer as Folk, and L-Word testifies, as do hundreds of circuit parties, and catalogs like Abercrombie and Fitch.

" underbear1's argument about discrimination against the alleged gay community, at least with respect to public affairs in OUR America is blunted considerably by the fact that Congressman Barney Frank in OUR United States government is a person who apparently professes to be gay, whatever on earth that really does mean, and he is treated with decorum and respect, so far as I can see."

Dick Army called Barney Frank "Barney FAG" in the House of Representatives.
Harvey Milk an openly gay city council member from San Francisco was shot to death along with Mayor Masconi,
and because the killer White said he'd eaten twinkies, he got less than 5 years for BOTH killings, and he would have gotten life inprisonment had he ONLY killed the Mayor, but some folks think killing gay people is a public service!

Since Viet Nam was your venture out into the world, you didn't mention women in the Phillipines HIRED by the armed forces to be certified CLEAN prostitutes for the troops pleasure, (R & R ring a bell?) Even more gruesome were teen boys in Saigon prostituting themselves as young as 10, or the rapes of village girls.

Maybe seeing Bob Hope's shows featuring scantily clad Raquel Welch and any other pin-up flavor of the month bimbo, was more in your tamer version of Viet Nam.

And it is not so much a matter of "sheltering", underbear1, as it is one of totally shutting things out, so that in my mind, which is where it is important to me, these things do not exist!

In my mind, where my privacy resides - Caesar's World IS GONE!

And does it really go away when I close my mind to it?

Who knows, and that is not the purpose of the exercise, anyway, to make anything "go away", in that "reality", out there!

To the contrary, the nature of the exercise is to keep things unwelcome, and unbidden out of my "space", and so ....

underbear1, that world out there right now, this world of push and shove that you speak of in here, that world of exploitation of human beings for money that perhaps does exist out there somewhere, well, for me, it is completely and totally unrecognizable to me, and that is just a fact, and so I choose to simply disregard it, in toto, and especially the sleazy, seamy side, which seems these days to be ever-creeping right on up to the edge of my lawn these days, like a kind of virulence unleashed on the human population, a rabies of the human spirit that I personally find upsetting, and off-putting, to boot, for its "foreign-ness" to all that I know as being "real" and "enduring".

And this world of today is in no way at all similar to anything that I grew up in, which has me here on this earth of ours as though I fell to here from Mars!

Truly a stranger in a very strange land indeed, except on this memorial Day, and then, it was not strange at all, because it was just plain people that day, and no agendas, no "sex sells" no gays, no straights, just people, and you know, underbear1, for that while, well .....

And that is what this is all about, I guess, going softly amidst the noise and confusion, and in the process, well, whoever really does know ....

I was an infantryman out near the Cambodian border, underbear 1, in a province of Viet Nam that made it into the TOP TEN provinces over there for number of Americans killed, and so, I had my mind in a quite different place than that which you are talking about in here, where these prostitutes and such that you are talking about in here apparently existed, and so, I can't speak to any of that, to be quite frank with you on that particular subject.

I just don't know about them, because out there where I was, they sure were not, and if they were, well, they sure were not running around scantily clad in the jungle, and that is a fact, because in the jungle, things eat you, especially if you are stupid enough to go in there scantily clad, looking for sex, of all things!

No, underbear1, I guess I just had my mind on different things, and so, missed out on seeing these prostitutes you talk about, above here, but I do take your word for it that they were there, somewhere, but back in a secure area, I am sure, since the jungle is just no place for them that I can see, anyway!

And since I don't defend what this nation did over there, I certainly won't defend any of what you say was taking place over there, if in fact it was real, and likely it was, because while we were there, that place was a Hell on earth, and so, anything that came up out of Hell, or could be spewed up, well, likely it was there, and in spades, especially if money could be made from it, and that is how it goes out there, isn't it?

Isn't that why it is called Caesar's World in the first place, because those are the things of Caesar?

"Render unto Caesar that which is his ......", which in this case would be those prostitutes that you are talking about, above here?

Caesar's "coin of the realm", as it were?

And there was one time that I was offered a chance to go and see Bob Hope, and you know what, I turned it down!

Don't like crowds, especially in a war zone, and I don't like Bob Hope!

Never did, actually!

Generational, maybe, but who knows?

Whatever, I just did not like him, and so .....

So why go see him, and have to endure a crowd of people, to boot, just to see some bimbo, as you call them, dance around scantily-clad up on a stage somewhere in Viet Nam?

It's not that big a thing, you see ......

But no, I guess you don't, because your stereotype has such a hold on your mind, that you are simply blind to the possibility that people like me, TOTALLY OUTSIDE OF YOUR STEREOTYPE, can even exist ......

Oh, well!

I think we are probably both outside each others stereotypes,,,,and so...

I'll end my part of the thread with a showtune,(how's that for a stereotype)
I'm watching Rosiland Russell's GYPSY



Some People
(from Gypsy)
Music: Jule Styne
Lyrics: Stephen Sondheim

Some people can get a thrill
Knitting sweaters and sitting still
That's OK for some people
Who don't know they're alive
Some people can thrive and bloom
Living life in the living room
That's perfect for some people
Of one hundred and five
But I at least gotta try
When I think of
All the sights that I gotta see
All the places I gotta play
All the things I gotta be at
Come on Papa
What do you say?
Some people can be content
Playing bingo and paying rent
That's peachy for some people
For some hum-drum people to be
But some people ain't me!

underbear1, I cannot agree with you more, that each person out there does have to finally figure out the direction that THEIR own life is going to go in, and you are doing that, as you see fit!

As a true believer in equal protection under the law, and more to the point, equal LIBERTY, I personally have to support your right to not have to live my life, and that is a fact!

And I am glad I don't fit your stereotype, as well, because I wish to have my own chances in life at life, to make my own mistakes, to learn from them, to continue to grow in the direction that I see fit for my own self, while I am down here on this earth of ours, and that is difficult enough to do, sometimes, in the best of times, without having to then wade through a maze of stereotypes placed on one by all the perfect people out there, which is why someone or other once said something about "lives lived in quiet desperation".

The only way to escape that condition of "lives lived in quiet desperation", as I see it, is to not be desperate, for anything!

But, that is a frame of mind that is mine, and that is that.

underbear1, in all truth, I am glad that you felt free enough to come in here and to leave behind your thoughts, on how you see this world of OURS, and you certainly are thought-provoking, especially with respect to your views on CONSPICUOUS CONSUMPTION, here in OUR America, that is fueled on the one hand by exploitation, and on the other by what I perceive largely as empty-headedness, but .....

underbear1, as you would probably agree, ALL things on this earth of OURS are transitory in nature, at best, and sometimes fleetingly so, and so, at least to me, that behooves one to be and remain flexible in life, and to do that, in part, one must get beyond all hatreds, stereotypes, bigotrys, etc., and since that is hard work, to me, the earlier one sets him or herself to the task, well, it don't necessarily make the job easier, but it sure does cut down on the overall amount of work one must do to overcome one's own brand of human nature, and so .....

underbear1, I wish you well, and truly so, in your own endeavors in life, and I hope that you would feel welcome to return here.

And "Hello, Dolly" doesn't dredge up any negative connotations for me, and so, I think your words above here from that show have merit for anyone who wishes to think on them, because I too believe in that message they convey, to not live someone else's life, when you have been given your own instead.

My words to anyone reading those words that you have posted above from "Hello, Dolly", would be to look into your own heart, and find yourself in there, and then, find and practice on a daily basis the courage that it takes one to simply be oneself in this stereotypical world down here that we all must pass through, at least once, to get to our own home beyond, if in fact, there is such a place waiting, as I believe to be the case, for me, anyway, simply because I believe that way!

The power of the human mind!

Harness it!

See where it can take you!

And whoever knows where that just might be?

SHEATHS by Deng, Ming-Dao

Traditional sages describe a human being as having three sheaths.

The outer one is the physical body and incorporates primitive drives and instincts.

The inner one is the mind and includes discrimination, reasoning, and sense of individuality.

Both the body and the mind are enslaved to the outer world because they gain their knowledge from sensory input.

They cannot know anything "intangible", anything without a form or a name.

At the core of every person is the soul.

This is a pure, virgin self.

It does not think in the ordinary sense of the word, has no egotism, and is not concerned with maintaining itself in the world.

Although the body has a shape, and the mind is multi-faceted, the soul is completely without form, or features.

NO markings, profiles, names, formulas, numbers, ideas, or conceptions can be projected upon it.

It is pure, shapeless and empty.

ANY person with training can reach this soul.

Only then can you be convinced of its presence.

When you reach it, your body and mind will become irrelevant, for you are now in a state beyond the senses, and beyond thought.

The soul is called absolute, because it is beyond all relativity.

Returning to the original focus of the thread, I hope we who are extremely passionate against the War in Iraq, and angry at the Defense Department and Joint Chiefs, refuse to repeat a horrible chapter of 30 years ago. Blaming and taking out our rage on individual soldiers, sailors, marines, air force, and National Guard for the mistakes and horrors their superiors caused. This I feel is why Viet Nam is still a weeping and festering sore for a whole generation.

And underbear1, I am glad you decided to stay the course, here, especially with respect to your own recollections of those times, which are a part of the collective consciousness of all of us who lived through those times, although we all possess only fragments of that consciousness, and it is that jumble of fragments that causes this weeping and festering sore that you talk about, above here, and correctly, from my perspective, all these years later.

Earlier today, I was recalling the words from a song of those times that were to the effect, "The times, they are a'changing", and I have to wonder sometimes, as a disabled Viet Nam veteran, are they, and in what direction might that be?

And here, underbear1, is where your comments about those times versus these have value in here, because in a lot of ways, the circumstances of those times cast into opposition a lot of people in this country, who in other times would not have had cause for any acrimony between each other, whatsoever, and I believe that to be a fact, having been one of those returning veterans who did experience some or maybe much of what you describe above here, with absolutely no way whatsoever to communicate with those people on the other side that I was no enemy of theirs, so please don't treat me as one.

Imagine, underbear1, IF there had been an internet forum such as this way back then, how much different life for many of us, and ultimately all of us might have been, at least with respect to mitigating all of the hatred and rancor that was very epidemic and rampant in those times, perhaps beginning with the Dow Riots on the University of Wisconsin Campus in Madison, Wisconsin in 1967, and continuing through the bloody Democratic National Convention in Mayor Daley's Chicago in 1968, and on up through Kent State in 1970, shortly after I got back to here, which was by then a place that I did not recognize, at all, for the foreign-ness of all of the rancor and hatred in the air, that one could cut with a knife, at times, and the violence that was so prevalent back then, as well!

People failing to see each other as people, and with no discernable way to bridge that seeming gulf in between!

As a Viet Nam veteran who had seen first-hand what "our" side was doing over there to "win hearts and minds" in my little corner of Viet Nam, I ended up being smack dab in the middle of the confrontation when I got back, and talk about confusing times, underbear1, indeed, because I found myself disliked by all sides in the struggle, by one side because I had gone voluntarily, and so could not be trusted as a real peaceful person, and by the other because I was a peaceful person who was against what I saw being done over there, and was not afraid to call that "war" a bunch of B** S***, at least from my own perspective, which was formed by looking down the barrel of an automatic weapon at another human being, albeit smaller than I and brown, and having in my power the very life, or death of that who I was "focusing" in on, at any given time of the day or night, because in a place like that, the killing is 24/7, without time off for relaxation, or reflection, either, in many cases, but ultimately, not in mine, which is what this thread is all about, underbear1, sort of separating myself out from the crowd, and saying to all the candid world, this is who I am, and these are my thoughts from those times that influence my own actions in these times, and you know what, underbear1?

We really are on the same side of your sentiment above, about separating out the wheat from the chaff when the ones in uniform come home from something that they might not have started, and may not have wished to participate in, but were not given the choice of saying no!

And it interesting to me that while I was subjected to a lot of vitriol, I suppose the word would be, from the anti-war crowd when I got back, I never let that make me bitter, because that would have meant that my own value system was poisonous or toxic to me, since in my value system, those people had a right to express their displeasure with that war, and especially the indiscriminate use of napalm, which value system in some cases ended up with me having the blame heaped on me for something that I did not start, either, and sure did not condone, once I saw what it was that we were really doing, which was a form of genocide to me, however limited in overall scale it might have been to anyone else, either over here, or over there.

So, now I am old, and underbear1, you're at least more mature, yourself, if not to say a few years older then you might have been 30 odd years ago, now, and this is what I have to say today based on my own experiences in between, which is that IF the times are truly ever to change, at least in terms of human rights and therefore, human relations, WITHOUT DISCRIMINATORY LABELS ATTACHED, IT MUST BEGIN WITH EACH OF US DESIRING CHANGE IN THE FIRST PLACE, and FOR REASONS OF MUTUAL CONCERN, such as not having the world be the hateful, spiteful place that it was back then, and is becoming again under the administration of this present incumbent!

Which is why I am glad you came back, underbear1, because of your perceptions of those times, and the power those perceptions can have on all of us to seek and desire another way of looking at people who have gone to war, and trying to see them as human beings just like us, when sometimes, they, like me, probably will seem as if they came here from the moon, or Mars, and so are a foreign species themselves, down here on this earth of OURS.

And so .........

Somehow, of course, over the years, as these things end up working out, the "Great Mystery" in action, as I see it, anyway, I have been marching in three parades, as a veteran, and those three parades, for me, at least, have been a sort of catharsis for the reason that underbear1 states above, that being the "rage" and turmoil that was so closely associated with these public displays back in the late-1960's, and especially in the early-1970's when I first got back to here from Viet Nam, that would have me heading in the opposite direction from where any of these parades were to be held, so as to escape the emotions that were associated with these veteran's related parades for so long a time after Viet Nam.

The first of these parades, as mentioned at the start of this thread, was the Memorial Day Parade over in Albany, New York, which is OUR state capital up here, and so, draws what is to me, a large group of people as both marchers and spectators, and so, is a challenge to me for that reason, in and of itself, let alone being in a situation that caused me to have to think of, yea, confront, memories of all those WHO WOULD NOT BE THERE, and why that was!

The second parade is going to be this weekend, God-willing, for me, anyway, as it is every year, because right on up to the time of the parade, I am usually still debating, after all these years, whether I will actually go or not, which so far, I have been doing pretty consistently now, for quite a few years, and that is the Flag Day Parade in Troy, New York, which I personally think is one of the best parades, ever, at least for Viet Nam veterans who want to feel welcomed home by something other than curses and epitaphs, and thrown hands, every now and then.

The people of the City of Troy line the parade route from start to finish, year after year, and their reception of Viet Nam veterans today is to me a wonderful thing.

And that is a good thing for this nation, and the continuing healing process over lingering Viet Nam wounds, which lingering wounds were made very visible in this last year's presidential election, with that Swift Boat Boy's crap, and especially at the Republican National Convention in New York City, where so many attendees were wearing those ridiculous-to-me, purple-heart band-aids to insult John Kerry and to denigrate his wounds as being not important, to them!

This particular Flag Day Parade, however, was not started to heal anything!

To the contrary, it was started in 1967, the year of the Dow Riots on the Madison Wisconsin campus, to essentially spit in the faces of the war protestors, by having a bunch of WWII veterans take over the main street of the City of Troy, and march down through the city carrying flags as a goad, instead of as a symbol of inclusiveness, which it is to me now, when it is in my hand.

But this is years later, of course, and while time may or may not eventually heal all wounds, it at least erases memories, and for me as a Viet Nam veteran, perhaps the most painful memories of all were caused by the divisiveness in the community that was caused by this one parade!

"You're with us, or you're agin us!"

"Love it, or leave it!"

That was the message back then, and to me, it was a message of pure hatred!

"This flag belongs to us, and we are for war and the killing!"

Talk about a message of hate, to me, this was it, and so, for years, I would not go anywhere near this city, during this time of year, when once again, the flag was claimed, perhaps usurped, by those who thought that we should just crush Viet Nam, and everything in it, because they were resisiting our presence over there with the force of their arms, however weak they might have been in the course of doing so.

And it was not until some time in the 1980's that a group of Viet Nam veterans who wanted to raise money for a Viet Nam memorial wall in Troy had the idea of marching down the parade route, ahead of the parade, with canisters for collecting donations, which proved to be a real ice-breaker, because we were the first organized group of Viet Nam veterans to be seen along that parade route since its inception, back in 1967.

Walking down the parade route as we did, ahead of the parade, turned out to be quite a lesson, for us, and for me, personally as well, for by doing so, we learned, first-hand, that if there was lingering hostility and resentment about the war itself, it was not aimed at us, and we were really welcomed by these people, instead, FOR THEIR OWN REASONS, which are not always immediately understandable by former objects of derision, such as we Viet Nam veterans had been when first we returned to here, all those years ago.

And how do you ever know that these kinds of transformations can happen?

And that answer is, you don't!

It has to be an act of faith, pure and simple, is how I look at it, a belief in the innate goodness of one's fellow mankind, that sadly gets buried over in times of national turmoil, such as the times we seem to be sinking back into once again, with this Iraq business that George W. Bush started with an airborne invasion to take over Iraq's oil.

Time to put hatred in this nation to bed, for once and for all, is my thought, anyway, and on Flag Day, or the Sunday closest to it, which is this Sunday coming, Troy, New York is the place to be, for an hour or two, or more, of the exact opposite, which is welcoming, and inclusiveness, instead, and if it is not completely perfect, well, it sure is close, and compared to the days of its beginnings, that is an advance of light years, indeed!

And so ....

"Simple people standing around, thinking OUR thoughts, and remembering those names as the flesh and blood that they once were, and always will be, in spirit, so long as we are there to remember them as the flesh and blood that they were, before they donned a uniform and went off to die in the mud and jungles of Viet Nam."




Don't mean to interupt the conversation, just wanted to tell you, you are not just a simple man, YOU are a hero. Thank you.

And no, you did not interupt the conversation, and I would never be so rude as to tell you otherwise!

It is good to hear your words, and I am glad you chose to post them here, for that is part of the purpose of this, I would say, is for us all to realize that we are all just people down here on this earth of ours, black, white, yellow brown, whatever, trying to make our way through life as best we can, and how much good just a simple kind word like yours can do to make that process that much easier.

Thank you again!

And as it was to also turn out, one day, while having a cup of coffee down in Troy, this old man at the counter got talking to me, and as we talked, the conversation got around to the Flag Day Parade in Troy, and the Viet Nam war, which was the cause of that parade being started up down there in 1967, in the first place, and we reminisced, if that is the word for it, about all the turmoil associated with those times, and as we talked about all of this, this old man revealed to me that he was one of the marchers in the original Flag Day Parade in Troy in 1967, the one that was intended as a kind of show of force to the "anti-war" people in the area; and when he said that, for a moment, I suppose, the conversation kind of lagged, because that original Flag Day Parage was perceived as a slap at Viet Nam veterans as well, in those times, and so, I thought, well, here we go again, but, I was to be proven wrong, and you know, that's both a good and refreshing thing, at any time in one's life, and at any age, to boot.

For this old man had been sort of "dragooned" or "pressed" into marching in that original parade, himself, because of his "war record" in WWII, even though at that time, his heart was reaching out to the Viet Nam veterans of the time, and the anti-war folks, who never really organized themselves very well, I thought, so as to be able to put out a coherent message as to what their concerns really were, outside of the war and the killing, which was justification enough to this one old man, who himself had probably seen more war than anyone else that I have ever met, before or since, although from looking at this old man at that time, you never would even have guessed it, and that became encouragement to me, as well, that time can change a lot of things, even if it cannot heal all wounds.

And I think these thoughts in here because of chi's post where she calls me a hero, while I just think of myself as an old man in a suit carrying a flag, and I would hope that if anything, if chi were to see me march by, that she would see someone who was a gentleman, and she would know me as that, because I acted like one, and that is the test, as I see it, and as it was to turn out, so did this old man that I am now talking about in here.

As it was to be, this old man was to end up being one of those people that I most admired in my life, and had it not been for that Flag Day Parade in Troy, I never would have known that, which is a kind of message about missing opportunities in life, because of appearances, which certainly can be misleading, if we let them be!

This quiet, unprepossessing, unassuming man and I would have coffee quite regularly, and we would chat back and forth on this or that, and sometimes we would talk in a quiet way about war and such, for this man, then in his 80's, had been drafted for one year's military service about exactly one year before Pearl Harbor, so that the day before he was to be discharged, Pearl Harbor happened, and well, you know, that was the end of his discharge.

He, like many others of that generation, because of that one day, was in for the duration, and for them, that was to be quite a long time, indeed.

Being a smaller man, one day, he was singled out of his unit with a bunch of other smaller men, and they were then all taken away to a new base, where they found out that they were to be part of a brand new military concept back then, which was the "paratroop" corp that we now take so for granted.

At that time, airplanes had not been around all that long, and so parachuting into combat was an untried concept.

It was originally thought back then, because of inexperience with the concept, that men over a certain height and weight could not survive the impact of the landing, so originally, all of those "drafted" as the new paratroop army were small men like this man.

"Shrimps" and "midgets" he jokingly called them, as they were also apparently called by those around them who were not so small, especially the British in North Africa, he would say, who mocked them for their apparent lack of physical stature.

I have listened to hours of this quiet man talking to me about those experiences of learning to be a paratrooper in the early days of WWII, an airborne trooper or "sky soldier" as we Viet Nam veterans would call them, the elite of our nation's fighting forces back then.

After learning to be a paratroop, this old man, then young, of course, was made a part of the 82nd Division, now called "airborne", but at that time just emerging with a new identity from being a "straight leg", as we non-airborne "grunts" were called, infantry division.

This man was sent first to North Africa, where the battle for supremacy of the desert against Rommel and the Africa Corps of the German Army was being waged, and from there to an airborne landing in Sicily, then the D-day jump into Normandy, and then on to Berlin, and the eventual end of the war.

As a Viet Nam combat veteran, I would listen raptly as this man recounted his experiences of "his war" as he called it.

"My war" and "your war" this man would say to differentiate Viet Nam and WWII.

And here, I have to say that it is hard for me, with my experience in Viet Nam, to even conceive of what this man went through, during his time, in his war.

And then, at the end, when the fighting was all over, this old man, and some others like him, who had been in the fighting since North Africa, well, they were held back over there in Europe, despite all the points they had, because someone somewhere in OUR government thought that people like him who had been in combat for so long, WERE NOT SAFE TO BE BROUGHT BACK OVER HERE, TO BE RELEASED, OR UNLEASHED, MAYBE, ON THE CITIZENRY, who he was a part of, before he got drafted!

When I heard that, it was like deja vu, all over again, because similar things were being said about people like me, some 25 years later!

I know from personal experience that when you are under fire, that funny things happen to the passage of time, so that a day in combat can seem like a year, and a year can seem like an eternity, and this man endured the experience not for months or a year like we did in Viet Nam, but for years on end, in all kinds of places, like the desert of North Africa, to the snows and cold of Europe in the winter months, and this old man endured all of that somehow, and either never became bitter, or got over it before I met him, so that I would not even be tempted to utter a word about Viet Nam, which thank God, never got that awful cold.

Now, I know that this old man was wounded twice, because such things from war time service cannot be hidden from another veteran, and I know this man engaged in acts of heroism in that struggle that again are just about inconceivable to most of us, myself included, and yet he would never really talk about them as being anything more than what you do when you believe in something dearly enough to fight and perhaps die for it.

And the feeling that this old man reinforced in me is that it is always better to look forward, rather than backwards, and so, the Purple Hearts we both earned just lay somewhere in a drawer, as a symbol of what once was, although the wounds which caused them are not so kind as to simply go away and hide.

There is a saying among veterans to the effect of "To those who fight for it, freedom has a feeling the unprotected never learn to know", and like the old man above that I am talking about in here, to me, those words ring all too true.

What is it that we combat veterans know from this experience of war?

I, like my friend, am now getting old, or older anyway, and after all these years, I still don't have a real answer to that, nor for all his wisdom, did this old man I talk about.

I know from talking to this old man that I am one of the very few people that he has ever uttered a word to about his experiences in WWII, and that his own children knew none of these things about his experiences because when you have children after experiences like those, and this I do know, you just cannot bring yourself to tell your own children exactly how bad, how very ugly, the world and the people in it can be at times, and here I include us as well, because when you got off those helicopters in Viet Nam, it was not to give out hugs and kisses, I can tell you; it was to make some poor fool on the ground wish to God that you had never been born, and that of all other things, that you had never gotten on that helicopter that day in the first place, and it gets ugly from there in the recounting.

So who wants to tell their children and families afterwards that this is who their father really was, this person who could do these kinds of things and not be so sick in his soul afterwards that he would just shrivel up and die of shame on the spot?

Who wants to know that they are the off-spring of these people?

In fact, in one of the first posts I ever made on one of these internet forums, it was in response to a post made by the daughter of a WWII veteran, and she was kind of sad and upset that before her father died, she never really knew that he had even been to war, and my words to her were to be thankful that she knew her father for the man he was in her own life afterwards, after the war was over, and he was back home, as opposed to who he might have been the day before, when he was at war, because like her father, I will likely wrestle with these feelings of "war" until the day I die, and then get put away in the earth some place with my deeds in war hopefully unsung and unheralded, and that is that, and in the meantime, the struggle is to just let it rest, for one more minute, let it rest!

And if you can just do that for long enough, well .....

No heros no more, just old men marching in a parade!

And there is where hope for the future springs from, from the standpoint of this combat veteran and that old man I talk about as well; not what we did as soldiers, but what instead we as soldiers hope never to see done ever again in the world, especially by our own children, even though we know in our heart of hearts that human nature don't change much, so that the cycle is likely to repeat over and over again.

My words to that young woman then were to be thankful every day of her life that her father was who he was, in the "war", and then, didn't bother to talk about it, afterwards.

After war, humility is not a bad thing to have.

God bless and live in peace, is what I told her, because I think that is really what her father would wish her memories of him to be, a man who came home and raised a family and not a man who went to war.

And I guess, in the end, the memories that I wish anyone would have of me as a veteran was just an old man out there in a parade, wearing a suit, and quietly carrying a folded American Flag as if it meant something positive, and he, for one, knew what that was, and cherished it, and what it really is, is something simple, real simple - it is about people, regardless of rank, and class and all of that which serves to divide us as a people, as a nation!

And if chi does see me as a hero, well that is alright, so long as she sees a gentleman somewhere visible in the package as well, for if one is to be a real hero, maybe that is the first place to start!