So...I cant type and so....this is what mr. heart writes in my place...well...many will enjoy this...

Heart tells me - "Mr. Heart" that some of you nice folks want me to sit in for her and represent her opinion on Shrub Bush's pep rally for the War in Iraq tonight, but the problem is (A) I got so involved in the speech and the talking heads talking after the speech I forgot to eat and she won't make me a sandwich, and ( more to the point, we rarely disagree on political issues of import (as opposed to child rearing issues), but she's very much supportive of the Iraq War and I'm very much against it. I could "ghost" write something pro-war, but that would be awful Karma in that I believe than every day we are there the terrorists grow stronger, more of America's best and brightest die and get maimed, our military grows weaker (recruitment is down as the war heats up), and I don't want to contribute to that.

I've gone a long way on this one. I was vigorously anti-Viet Nam War in the streets. I *never* - however - made the common mistake some of my contemporaries did of blaming the average G.I. joe (and jane) for an awful policy that an otherwise great President - Johnson - started and egged on, and an otherwise obscene excuse for a president - Nixon - continued to push, attempting to bomb into the stone age people already living in stone age conditions. I supported the troops, shook their hands and said "thank you" when they got home, and worked very hard to bring them all home.

I supported the first Gulf War. I don't like little countries like Kuwait being beaten up by big countries like Iraq. After 9/11 (which came as no surprise to me as Heart will attest), I gave tentative support to chasing the terrorists out of Afghanistan. But I had no illusions about an Afghani "DEMOCRACY" and still don't. It's fairly easy to take Kabul. Every fool since Alexander the Great has taken Kabul on their way to somewhere else, but, as the Soviets found out the hard way, getting the "Afghan people" (actually, a bunch of peoples left over from various tribal groups that wandered in and sat down during various historical periods) to live any way other than how the local warlord wants, is not only difficult, but impossible. I thought we'd toss out Osama and his cohort of unwelcome guests, defrock the Taliban, put the King back on this symbolic throne in Kabul and *go home*. Opium trumps Islamist fanaticism three times out of four.

But NOOOOO. We got the doddering old King to come home from an extended vacation in Italy, pressured the Loyl Jurga to kick him upstairs to "Father of the Nation" (whatever that might mean) and install a distant cousin with a colorful outfit and good English as Mayor of Kabul, retitled "President of Afghanistan" and there we sit, Osama laughing at us from the equally ungovernable Waziristan, from which he makes broadcasts and organizes pep rallies for Islamists.

Yes, I supported the Afghan enterprise, mindful of our less-than-mindful commander in chief. And I continued to support our troops without condition, because its because of them I can sit here and write this without getting my door knocked down.

Then, Shrub and the boys say, on to Iraq, bringing to mind his earlier slip of the Freud about a "Crusade" since the one thing I could say not awful about the former dictator of said country was that he tended to execute "foreign fighters" along with anyone else that displeased him. Nothing to do with 9/11, I thought. Zero sum. So, when the Seventh Cavalry went charging in, my heart was with them, but I thought a lot about General Custer and the Little Big Horn.

Iraq is three countries, not one -- kind of like the former Yugoslavia. Under Clinton we did a nice job with our "no fly zone" allowing our real friends in the area, the Kurds, to sort of almost have what they are entitled to, a country. I liked the no fly zones. I liked the boycott. Apparently, it worked, or else the WMD are still in somebody's basement, which I doubt.

From "Mission Accomplished" to tonight's speech, don't even mention it. Something approaching two thousand American young men and women (and some not so young Guardsmen and reservists almost my age who thought they'd done their duty) are dead, over ten thousand are maimed, the Kurds are linked to an Iraq they want no part of, the terrorists now have a "live fire training ground" that they doubtless use for training purposes for terrorists from all over the Islamic World, with more coming every day, and the "government" we have installed will last only as long as we stay there, which, like Korea, is looking more and more like forever.

I love our troops. Enough to want them to live long full lives. I am reduced to an old but simple slogan. OUT NOW!

ps - "making democracy in the Middle East" is the motive of people like Heart, who have a lot of heart, and I respect that. That isn't Bush's reason, it's his fourth-down-the-list rationale. If I thought you could "force democracy" on a country, I *might* be for it in a more multilateral campaign. But I'd start with our "friends" in the dictatorships like Pakistan (a nuclear-armed Islamic dictatorship) or Uzbekistan, or better, the Sudan. But the idea of "imposed democracy" is quixotic at best. Germany and Japan had considerable pre-militarist democratic traditions. (We still have bases in both, as you all know, sixty years after.) Iraq does not. We should be more thoughtful.

******

note from heart..omg....we never disagree...this is a first and the man is determined to subvert my whole message...i guess he has a "mind of his own'" oh well!

Well I gotta give Mrs. Heart alot of credit for holding onto her convictions about the war despite your opinion and the constant rants that go on here. Nobody can ever say she gives in to popular opinion...even if that popular opinion is right.

Your are right, she is a person of conviction. "Drives me crazy, but I can't help myself". -- Mr. Heart

Mr. Heart, you put into words so many of my thoughts on this mess. Thank you! Well done, Mr. Heart, very well done indeed!

I am heart's son, and I am 15 years old so I appologize if what I say to you doesn't agree with your opinion, but it is my opinion, and I am sticking to it! I am also going in to the military, and I dont support the start of the war but I do support the actual war itsself. Let me explain. This whole war was a complete misstake to start up because of why G.W.B started it, but since the top brass of the U.S decided to go on and start it, the U.S and allies needs to finish it.

Presedent G.W.B said "every president needs a legacy, he needs a great war to make a memorable presidentcy". That I think was the dumbest thing I have ever heard and yes G.W.B that does make a memorable president, but it depends if it is a good or a bad memory. This pres. WILL be remembered as an idiot. Why oh Why did the americans get him back into office !?!

If any of you are wondering, yes I want to go into battle preferably not the front lines but if I am asked once I WILL GO EVEN AT 15!!! Too bad 15yr olds can't join. I guess im glad cuz if I'm in battle I dont want some dumb lil 15yr old in my platoon. oh, oh, I know, let 15yr olds take the exam into the military and get a "psycho" or cat scan to see if they'll frag people. But that will look bad on Bush because people will say (because in the U.S 15 is not a man) "now they are recruting kids"?!? Oy vey!!! Well when I'm of age I will join (AND NOT JUST FOR COLLEGE $ !!!!}. Well... that's my time, I've got to go study for the military. Please RESPOND (dont care if response is bad ).

Thanks for the heartfelt notes from the heart family! Methinks the supper table conversation might get a bit lively 'round the heart household, eh?

Methinks a family with heartfelt convictions be somethin' to be proud of......... never surrender them!

You are hereby presented the

Interestin how members of a family can have such a wide variety of opinons!

On a side not, my father joined the NG back in the 50's when he was just 16. After he passed away not long ago, one of my brothers was going thru his papers and noticed the DOB given on his NG record was not his but that of an older brother. As the NG unit was made up entirely of local people, the higher ups at the armory must have darn well knew he was underage at the time he enlisted but I guess they weren't too fussy about things like that back then.

Mr. Heart has the correct view in this case.
It is sort of unusual, isn't it, for the Mrs. to be more pro-war than the Mr.?

Now I better watch it if Mrs.Graham and SonGraham and DaughterGraham and Grahamsmother and Grahamsfather and Grahamscats come on the board.
I have already been accused of not being sybil and being sybil.
Depends what hour of the day I guess
(I will just sit here and not move a muscle. I won't even swat that fly on my nose-NormanBates)

Hello Heart's son!
You're a very brave young man to post your thoughts here! You may be too young to join the military, but you'll be involved in a conflict of a different sort here: the war of ideas-I guess we,
on this forum, could be considered to be "word warriors"! We inform, debate and "battle it out" trying to convince others of the "rightness" of our ideas and positions. Sometimes most are in agreement sometimes we lose our cool , but we never, ever give up! Why? Because we may disagree about many matters, but we all love the U.S.A. :julyfourth:
So, you want to "go into battle". If not on the front lines, then what would you like to do in the military?

Mr. Heart, you have my heart-felt respect! You must indeed be a man of strong convictions (but I already knew that).

Heart'sson, we have heard much about your warrier-like mindset. Wonder where you got that?

Thank you both for your contributions.

Wonder if I might get Mr. Pegatha to join in? He wrote in a couple of times at the old forum. Bet you didn't know that!

-Pegatha

edit to add: I look forward with great interest to the contribution of Heart'sotherson!

Bless you 'Heart's Son' and all those of your generation. Never apologize for standing up and voicing your opinion. We have messed up so badly in our handling of things and yet there is hope so long as young people like you are there to pick up the pieces.

You make me remember why I agree so whole heartedly with your Father even though I do enormously respect your earnestness and principles.

I do hope you know how very fortunate you are to have parents who both feel strongly and yet remain true to their individual beliefs while respecting the other's right to disagree and by their example have taught you those principles. I congratulate both of them !

You remind me of a quote I have always loved.

" Children have never been very good at listening to their elders, but they have
never failed to imitate them."

I always knew that Heart had a lot of heart. Some days I think she also has a lot of smart. I find Mr. Heart's perspective much closer to my own. Together they
validate one of my prepotent personal constructs which is
cultural diversity which is essential for effective and efficient social
systems which is also validated through the introduction of Heart-son.

Heart's son, my fathter enlisted in the Navy in 1943, a few months before his 18th birthday. There has been a lot of underage enlistment. I would just say that the two years and some months until your 18th birthday will pass quickly enough.

My immediate family has always been 100% Democrats (though not all my other close relatives) but we also have always had quite a range of opinion. My Navy veteran father was the most pacifist (but not the most leftist) of the bunch. I'm the most "right-wing" of the group, but in the context of my family that still puts me definitely on the left side of center on most issues.

I really like the way Mr. Heart writes. Young mister Heart as well. Quite a bit of firepower in familia Heart if I do say so.

Mrs. Eugeenie and I are remarkably close politically, though she is much more articulate and reasoned, and were she here her degree of tact would stand in stark opposition to my own. She is also more intelligent and interested in a wide variety of subjects than myself, so actually knows what she is talking about.

Son #1 strikes me as being very much like myself at 23. I'm sure he will experience much in the next 27 years, and perhaps looking back as a 77 year old I can also say that he reminds me of me at 50, but for now I would say of him that he is an apple that landed right at the foot of the tree.

Son # 2 has some very clear cut ideas when it comes to war, the way the economy should run, the environment, etc. Wars are to be conducted between meat eaters and long necks, which is as it should be, the economy should be constructed so as to land the greatest number of lego building sets in his hands, and the environment should be protected in such a way that there are always plenty of hidey spots. I suppose he, too, may change over the years, but for now he also reminds me of me.

I didn't say too much about the family I head because I am the most political. My wife is a relatively new citizen, and while she cheered Bush's victory in 2000 as a way of teasing me she has since become very anti-Bush because of the war, and casted her first vote in this country for John Kerry. When my daughter was two I showed her a picture of George Bush and said, "This is George Bush, President of the United States." Since then she seemed to hold the idea that Bush was a good guy, but I was just trying to teach her something. She was the only Bush backer in the family last year, but, picking up on what my wife and I were saying, she also backed John Kerry sometimes, and sometimes had the idea that both could win. All I can say about my baby son is that one time he cried listening to my daughter saying good things about Bush.

Dear Mr. heart:

I have to agree with Mrs. Heart...

We cannot get out now -- but that doesn't mean we can't get out sooner with better administration of this war...

More troops...more alliances -- securing the broder -- training outside of Iraq...and establishing benchmarks and a set of circumstances that when met will call for our withdrawal...though personally I would like a base in the new free counttry of Kurdistan to protect the Kurds from the Turks...

Predictably, I thoroughly enjoyed Mr. Heart's thoughts

But my respect for your entire family continues to grow, Heart. Yep, the "old hippie" and the "self proclaimed neocon" find common ground again.

Young Mr. Heart, you seem quite mature for your age. Keep thinking and studying, and listening to both of your parents, who are both wise people. Yea, I know, not cool at your age- but, trust me, they are awesome folks :yes:

(And Heart, did I read on another thread that you are having shoulder problems? Hope you are feeling better very soon.)

'Tis truly a 'heart felt' expression of the way democracy should work... Don't have to agree, but show respect for other's oppinions! joe e

Heart;

Make the poor guy a sandwich for cryin' out loud!

Cool Family!

Howdy thar! It's a real pleasure meeting the Heart family !

I was afraid one of you would bring up some issue about ducks and other avatars distracting Mrs Heart from her family obligations.

Izzat Heart Jr giggling in the background ?

By the way she duels it out and keeps this board on it's toes, looks like Mrs. Heart gets some serious training from all you guys at home.


Eventually, y'all might make good use of ...



Stress Reliever Ducky Family!

Take out your agression and built up tension on one of these ducks and be more relaxed, ready to greet the world in a happy and friendly mood!

These ducks are also great for some mild hand excercizes-- good to keep the joints in top shape.

Made with a spongy-rubbery material and it feels good in your palm when squeezed.
These guys float too!-- nice in the tub or pool!

3 1/2" long, 3" wide and 2 1/2" tall. Sold as a group of five (one of each color).

These duckies have no squeak and are a "5-Excellent" on the tubworthiness scale (they float upright in heavy seas).

Get Well Soon, Heart !

Before you join up, I recommend two books for you, both written by Chris Hedges:

"War is a Force That Gives Us Meaning" published before the BushWar

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=glance&s=books

"What Every Person Should Know About War" published after the BushWar

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=glance&s=books

thanks to all.

everyone in my house knows all bout "THAT DUCK" in both admiration and annoyance.

most everyone else is known too, but not as infamous.

son always wants to talk to the navy vets here....but he doesent like to read...mr heart and me are aghast at that...hope its rebelion...but hope is fading at 15.

younger son thinks iraq is mess...but wants iraqis to be okay too...afaid to leave them without our help all alone.

i cant make a sandwhich if i cant move my arm!!!!!

mr heart says to tell you all the things we agree on...thats like sandwhich...it will take wine, drugs, or time to heal....i will later.

thank you to everybody....your great...nice people...now my family understands why i spend so much time with you.

Didn't know you were sick, or that you couldn't move your arm!

Started to get the idea in later posts when some said get well soon. Ditto that, but what happened to you?

Heart's son You are young yet. Do not mahe hasty decisions about your life without doing a lot of research and thought. Please wait for at least one year after Bush leaves office before joining the military. They will need you then to attempt to rebuild the shattered military after Bush is done with them.

anger bout being called NOT dem....so get tense...then typing for school, work and too much type for support my iraq position...then a terrible argument among kurds..try to get them back on track...this makes 12-14 hours typing a day...bad ergonomics makes older injury act up LOL do i sound funny or what ?

david cant tell son not to serve his country...remember that jfk and all preceding presidents served...no matter who is prez cause we are all americans first...party second...but he doesnt like bush either.

Heart's son,

Part of me is VERY glad you are 15yo, and aren't able to enlist, another part dreads that when you are 18, this needless,endless War in Iraq will still be requiring American soldiers to fight it. With any luck you won't be serving under Bush as president, I guess that's the best thing I could wish for you, if you decide to join the military, our troops deserve SO MUCH BETTER THAN BUSH'S INCOMPETENCE!

one final note, in three years the sign up bonus should be some serious change, don't sign up for less than 50 large

get well soon, heart. We miss you out here.


My sister-in-law always wanted to join the peace corps. She finally did... at age 55. Now, after 2 years as a volunteer, she hired in as a Country Director. She is 60.

There are MANY ways to serve one's country. Some don't even involve violence.

son 1 wants to kill enemy...son 2 wants to be rabbi and in peace corp 1st. kids are not as much nurture as we like to believe.

Dear Underbear:
Thank you for your {Heart}felt concern about me."Oh nooooooooo!!! im getting into this dumb lil heart joke bull" . My mom wants me to go to college, live competitivly, and always vote Democrat. Well I am quite different, I do not care who I am fighting under as my pres. ... well as long as they are not against Israel, or Japan (i want to move to Japan!!!). I will always vote dem. though.
Oh I dont want to go to the millitary for the $, for college, houses, or even cars!!! I want to go for the guns and stuff... (you know BOOM BOOM kak kak kak!!!) I obviously am completely PRO-GUNZ!!! I like guns, but not for the reasons that Heart always says (she says cause I'm a boy with boy tools). But yeah $50,000 would be nice but I'm a patriot.
Yeah I do think this war will be on still when I am 18. Every generation has at least one war Heart says. She does have a lot of knowledge though, she just keeps it all to herself, (so that she always has the advantage in political or any other type of argument). She WILL dissagree!

My mom say "The Duck" is what makes her so smart. She says the duck makes her look things up and learn more, like a drill instructor. She makes us look stuff up too., without internet help, unlike her. But it is for the best, cause we get smarter. So the "The Duck" is famous in our house.

Well thanx agin !!!

$50,000 would buy you plenty of guns.

The difference is like serving in the German Army now instead of under Hitler. There is a big difference in the methods and morals depending on leadership. Our leadership now has no morals. Murders and torture occur because it is allowed by this administration. I would not wish to be a part of the Bush military. There is no honor in serving this man. You could see it in the faces of the soldiers he used as props for his speech.

don't worry, he can't join for 3 years anyway:). still, he's 15, allow him his silly illusions...he will find out how "real" those "gunz and stuff" are soon enough. Hopefully, i can give him some real education, history, politics and "stuff" before that day comes:)

Dear Heart's Son

I read your post and you seem to be very intelligent. Why waste your life in Iraq, or risk coming back with that new disorder where your brain has been so traumatized by a bomb going off near you that you may as well come back another person/ I have written lots about war recently on these boards (in the Veterans thread) and why I am against it in general, but especially under the present leaders of the G8, who sell 80 per cent of the world's weapons. It is all about making a lot of money for a few greedy people who sell weapons.

I hope you decide to wait until the leadership of the country changes to a democratic one before you join up.

That way you will probably only go to really necessary wars.

Best wishes

Heart's son

One important fact about military service, they have TOTAL CONTROL of your life, even when you think you've fulfilled your obligation, they may retain you indefinitely, or release you, and then call you back years later. Once you sign up, THEY OWN YOU!

"Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts.
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable."

Kahlil Gibran: The Prophet

Underbear1, you are right on spot there. But there are ways around it. I believe two or more soldiers refused to go to Iraq and went to jail instead.

When the Japanese decided to send troops to Iraq I read or heard (on TV) one of the soldiers' grandmothers had said 'I hope that if he thinks it is wrong to get involved in this war, he will have the courage to disobey orders.'

They may own you physically, but they do not own your spirit.

I love Gibran's writings. So very true. Every person should keep a copy of his works and read them often.