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heart
As the last IDF soldiers were heading out of the Gaza Strip early Monday morning, thousands of celebrating Palestinians took to the streets and made their way to the abandoned Jewish settlements.

Palestinian bulldozers began on Monday afternoon to knock down the synagogues left in Gaza.

In Neveh Dekalim – formerly Gush Katif's urban center – Palestinians set fire to what was just last month a yeshiva.

Gunmen from several Palestinian factions stormed through the settlement. One group planted a flag from the ruling Fatah movement on the roof of the yeshiva, while others set a fire inside.

Flames also shot skyward from the synagogue building in the isolated settlement of Morag in southern Gaza.

"They [Israelis] destroyed our homes and our mosques," said a man who gave his name only as Abu Ahmed. "Today it is our turn to destroy theirs." [Never heard of a Jew using a synagogue as a place to fight a battle from. Also, never heard of an intentional destruction of a mosque either!]

In Netzarim, located southwest of Gaza City, gunmen climbed on the roof of the synagogue and raised flags of Palestinian factions. They chanted, "God is great," and "We don't want anything to remind us of the occupation."

Palestinian policemen stood by and watched, admitting they were outnumbered by the crowds and had little motivation to stop them. An officer who refused to give his name said, "The people have the right to do what they are doing."

"The Palestinians failed in their first task when they did not protect the synagogues left standing in the settlements of Gush Katif," Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom said on Monday. "The arson of this morning is a barbaric act of people with no respect for holy places," he continued.

Shalom said that PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas needed to know that the whole world was looking to him, and anarchy in the Palestinian Authority was not a good sign for the future, reported Army Radio.

Following Sunday's cabinet decision against the demolition of synagogues, a Palestinian Authority official declared that the PA intended to destroy all the synagogues.

All remaining buildings in the evacuated settlements will be destroyed except for the hothouses, Palestinian Interior Ministry spokesman Tawfiq Abu Khoussa said.

I guess the hothouses were more valuable than houses of the same shared God. If Muslims can live in Israel, why can't Jews live/walk/get lost and come out alive...in Muslim countries?

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pag...d=1126405205939
wileycoyote
I heard on the news that Israel has stated that if there are any attacks upon her from Gaza they will take off the kid gloves. Maybe we should start a lottery to place a bet on how many hours it will be before the Palestinians make the move. wink.gif
cardinal
QUOTE(heart @ Sep 12 2005, 10:57 PM)
I guess the hothouses were more valuable than houses of the same shared God.  If Muslims can live in Israel, why can't Jews live/walk/get lost and come out alive...in Muslim countries?

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pag...d=1126405205939
*


No, guess not, just took a day to get to the hothouses.

The Scotsman
Palestinians on looting rampage
Palestinians looted dozens of greenhouses, walking off with irrigation hoses, water pumps and plastic sheeting in a blow to fledgling efforts to reconstruct the Gaza Strip.

American Jewish donors had bought more than 3,000 greenhouses from Israeli settlers in Gaza for 14 million US dollars last month, and transferred them to the Palestinian Authority.

Guess they might be hard pressed to contribute again on the other hand maybe not.

Former World Bank President James Wolfensohn, who brokered the deal, put up 500,000 dollars of his own cash.

Meanwhile in Gaza City, tens of thousands of Palestinians gathered for the largest Hamas demonstration ever seen there, celebrating the Israeli pullout a huge statement of strength by the militant Islamic movement.

Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar insisted his group would not disarm.

"These weapons will remain aimed at the chest of the enemy until we achieve liberation, God willing," he told the crowd. "We are not going to rest until we raise the flag of Islam over the minarets of Jerusalem."

Palestinian police stood by helplessly as looters carted off materials from greenhouses in several settlements, and commanders complained they did not have enough manpower to protect the assets.

In some instances, there was no security, and in others, police even joined the looters, witnesses said.

The failure of the security forces to prevent scavenging and looting in the settlements after Israel's troop pullout on Monday raised new concerns about Gaza's future.

Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas told his people in a televised speech that he would take immediate steps to impose order.
Frenchy
QUOTE(cardinal @ Sep 13 2005, 09:37 PM)
No, guess not, just took a day to get to the hothouses.

The Scotsman
Palestinians on looting rampage
Palestinians looted dozens of greenhouses, walking off with irrigation hoses, water pumps and plastic sheeting in a blow to fledgling efforts to reconstruct the Gaza Strip.

American Jewish donors had bought more than 3,000 greenhouses from Israeli settlers in Gaza for 14 million US dollars last month, and transferred them to the Palestinian Authority.

Guess they might be hard pressed to contribute again on the other hand maybe not.

Former World Bank President James Wolfensohn, who brokered the deal, put up 500,000 dollars of his own cash.

Meanwhile in Gaza City, tens of thousands of Palestinians gathered for the largest Hamas demonstration ever seen there, celebrating the Israeli pullout a huge statement of strength by the militant Islamic movement.

Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar insisted his group would not disarm.

"These weapons will remain aimed at the chest of the enemy until we achieve liberation, God willing," he told the crowd. "We are not going to rest until we raise the flag of Islam over the minarets of Jerusalem."

Palestinian police stood by helplessly as looters carted off materials from greenhouses in several settlements, and commanders complained they did not have enough manpower to protect the assets.

In some instances, there was no security, and in others, police even joined the looters, witnesses said.

The failure of the security forces to prevent scavenging and looting in the settlements after Israel's troop pullout on Monday raised new concerns about Gaza's future.

Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas told his people in a televised speech that he would take immediate steps to impose order.
*


This of course should come as no surprise to anyone, nor should the coming attacks from Gaza.
Beamer
I am going to say something here that will probably get me in trouble. It is my experience from watching this conflict from afar for many years that many Palestinians and others in the Arab world often seem angry, unstable and highly volatile, as though one cannot reason with them. Does anyone else have this impression?
vet65/69
all they have ever been taught is to hate
real_democrat
QUOTE(beamer619 @ Sep 13 2005, 11:04 PM)
I am going to say something here that will probably get me in trouble.  It is my experience from watching this conflict from afar for many years that many Palestinians and others in the Arab world often seem angry, unstable and highly volatile, as though one cannot reason with them.  Does anyone else have this impression?
*

No. First the media can be trusted to give a biased view.

They are reacting as anyone would who has had their homes bulldozed, forced to live in refugee camps, and who get to bear witness to the spectacle of having their old neighborhoods occupied by people who live in free modern housing, have access to roads and health care you can only dream about. Further the occupiers get your old homeland just by being of one ethnicty and for no other reason. Many of the new residents loudly proclaim you should be exterminated, but you can do nothing a they are protected by a well financed military(by yopu and me), and you are under their watchfull eye, you look up and see automatic machine guns everywhere amidst the concertina wire fences, and you are kept from entering the places you once lived.

How would you react?

I don't blame the one bit for destroying the Temples. Israel should have done it, thay had already removed every religiuos symbol.

As Geroge Gallowa pointed out when the Irish Revolted and took back (most) of their nation, the liberals in England predicted those savages could never govern. Well govern they did, self determination is everyones right.

And all of this is a great burden on Israelis not living in the occupied territory as well, which incidently is the vast majority. Like Americans, they too suffer the consequences of the leadership of a few powerful people who seek to occupy other peoples land. And like in America, the leaders are protected from the harm that the ordinary citizens must bear.
heart
There is just too much money and power in the funding of hate for them to stop propagandizing their population. Remember, Fatah is supposed to be part of the mainstream Palestinian Authority! It's not a "media" issue either, because the reports are all pretty consistent! Not even Fatah denies it!

Latest Evidence Hizballah Funds Palestinian Terrorists

In the first half of 2004 Israeli intelligence reported that Hizballah's fingerprint was present on 80 percent of terrorist attacks emanating from the West Bank. By then a series of arrested Fatah operatives conceded that Hizballah was funding nearly all of their group's attacks.

To be sure, Iran also provides a tremendous amount of funding and logistical support to Hamas through Hizballah, in addition to funding Fatah and Palestinian Islamic Jihad. Hizballah conditions this funding on successful Palestinian attacks, paying three to five thousand new Israeli shekels per attack and allowing operatives to keep any funds left over after successful strikes. Given the desperate economic situation in the West Bank and Gaza, this is a very effective means of encouraging terrorist activity.

Over the past several years, Hizballah has provided between $750,000 and $1.5 million to Palestinian terrorist groups annually. Besides the large-scale funding obtained from Iran, Hizballah uses charities as humanitarian fronts for terrorist activities against Israel (e.g., the al-Ansar Charity Association in Gaza). Israel has taken several measures to frustrate these efforts, including arresting moneychangers and seizing their funds; confiscating undeclared funds over 2,000 Jordanian dinar at Israeli-Jordanian crossing points; and raiding accounts tied to terrorists and front organizations in Ramallah banks.

But like other successful terrorist groups, Hizballah constantly adapts its tactics to evade counterterrorism efforts. Its innovations include transferring funds to the accounts of terrorists' family members and smuggling a computer chip with a detailed bombmaking guide from an operative in Jordan inside a Sony Playstation videogame console.

But the latest evidence that Hizballah continues to finance Palestinian terrorist groups and fund specific attacks comes from Ireland.

A Dateline NBC report that aired September 11, 2005 reveled that Jihad Jaara, a top operative for the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, is living free in Ireland where he continues to meet with fellow terrorist operatives and finance terror attacks.

On Jaara's suggestion, Dateline correspondent Lisa Myers contacted his friend and fellow al-Aqsa operative Salem Bawaqnah in an Israeli maximum security prison. Jaara believed Bawaqnah would corroborate his claim that he has entirely renounced terrorism following his exile from the West Bank. Instead, Bawaqnah told Myers that since July 2004 Jaara has helped him secure funding from Hizballah for terrorist cells in the West Bank involved in car bombings in Israel.

Jaara lived a double life as an officer in the Palestinian Preventative Security Force and an al-Aqsa operative. While serving as a Palestinian security officer, he masterminded countless violent actions against both Israelis and Americans, including the January 2002 murder of Avi Boaz (a seventy-two year old American citizen in Bethlehem) and a suicide bombing that killed eleven in that same year. In March 2002, Jaara was among those taking refuge in the Church of Nativity, one of Christianity's holiest sites, during the forty day siege there following the Israeli reoccupation of the West Bank. This terrorist action spawned international attention. Jaara was permitted to leave Bethlehem and resettle in Ireland under the condition that he assure Irish authorities in charge of monitoring him that have would have no further involvement in terrorist activities.

Irish intelligence officials, who denied NBC's requests for an interview, affirm they have intensified surveillance on Jaara after he left the country under a fake passport in 2003 for a meeting in Spain with other suspected militants. Spanish authorities detained Jaara and shipped him back to Ireland only after he "rang the leader of (Spanish) security and told him, 'I am Jihad and I am now in Spain.'" This is not the first time Jaara has taunted the authorities. He previously has not only bragged to Newsweek about his role in the murder of Boaz, he has also allowed BBC camera crews to follow and film him as he fired into an unsuspecting Jewish neighborhood.

According to Jaara, he acquired much of his operational expertise -- "especially for shooting" -- in CIA counterterrorism training courses he took as a Palestinian security officer.

http://counterterror.typepad.com/the_count...dence.html#more
heart
QUOTE(real_democrat @ Sep 14 2005, 05:32 AM)
I don't blame the one bit for destroying the Temples. Israel should have done it, thay had already removed every religiuos symbol.

As Geroge Gallowa pointed out when the Irish Revolted and took back (most) of their nation, the liberals in England predicted those savages could never govern. Well govern they did, self determination is everyones right.
*


Then of course it would hold very true that the Jews should destroy all of the Mosques in Israel because the Muslims built their Al Aqsa Mosque on top of the most holy place in all of Judaism. The Muslim world has destroyed many synagogues and graves of Jewish people, and in many Arab/Muslim nations to walk by a Jewish grave and not spit on it is considered bad luck. The Jews were treated horrifically by most Muslim nations and taxed just for being non-muslims, made to wear rags and live in caves in some instances. They had to dismount any mule they were riding if any Muslim came near because Jews were not allowed to be "higher" than Muslims. This was in THIS CENTURY, not in ancient times. In most Arab countries it is illegal to have a house of worship other than an Islamic one. In Shariah court, a Muslim woman's testimony carries more weight than a Jew.

I guess by your logic, the Israelis should just blow up the Al Aqsa Mosque, since the Muslims failed to do this before now.

Also....I would not consider Northern Irelands 300 year old war in the same light....but there is still violence there and the government is very corrupt, and the people are poor. Until the terrorism stopped, they got NOTHING! Nor should anyone who uses terrorism.

I leave you with the words of people who you make appologies for. What do you think "on OUR terms, the terms of Islam means?" I'll give you a hint, it means the nations of the earth must live under the law of Islam....and everyone else is the infidel....if they will not submit and agree to be "dhimmi" and pay the tax and tribute to Islamic nations.

"Yesterday, London and Madrid. Tomorrow, Los Angeles and Melbourne, Allah willing. And this time, don't count on us demonstrating restraint or compassion," the tape warns. "We are Muslims. We love peace, but peace on our terms, peace as laid down by Islam, not the so-called peace of occupiers and dictators."

"We love peace, but when the enemy violates that peace or prevents us from achieving it, then we love nothing better than the heat of battle, the echo of explosions, and slitting the throats of the infidels," he says.
heart
I forgot to mention this. "A lone green swastika was spray painted on the Neveh Dekalim synagogue." Yes, that's the Nazi influence coming through, but this time it's "Palestinian green"! wonderful! Nice folks there huh?
real_democrat
QUOTE(heart @ Sep 14 2005, 12:48 PM)
Then of course it would hold very true that the Jews should destroy all of the Mosques in Israel because the Muslims built their Al Aqsa Mosque on top of the most holy place in all of Judaism.  The Muslim world has destroyed many synagogues and graves of Jewish people, and in many Arab/Muslim nations to walk by a Jewish grave and not spit on it is considered bad luck.  The Jews were treated horrifically by most Muslim nations and taxed just for being non-muslims, made to wear rags and live in caves in some instances.  They had to dismount any mule they were riding if any Muslim came near because Jews were not allowed to be "higher" than Muslims.  This was in THIS CENTURY, not in ancient times.  In most Arab countries it is illegal to have a house of worship other than an Islamic one.  In Shariah court, a Muslim woman's testimony carries more weight than a Jew.

I guess by your logic, the Israelis should just blow up the Al Aqsa Mosque, since the Muslims failed to do this before now.

Also....I would not consider Northern Irelands 300 year old war in the same light....but there is still violence there and the government is very corrupt, and the people are poor.  Until the terrorism stopped, they got NOTHING! Nor should anyone who uses terrorism.

I leave you with the words of people who you make appologies for.  What do you think "on OUR terms, the terms of Islam means?"  I'll give you a hint, it means the nations of the earth must live under the law of Islam....and everyone else is the infidel....if they will not submit and agree to be "dhimmi" and pay the tax and tribute to Islamic nations.

"Yesterday, London and Madrid. Tomorrow, Los Angeles and Melbourne, Allah willing. And this time, don't count on us demonstrating restraint or compassion," the tape warns. "We are Muslims. We love peace, but peace on our terms, peace as laid down by Islam, not the so-called peace of occupiers and dictators."

"We love peace, but when the enemy violates that peace or prevents us from achieving it, then we love nothing better than the heat of battle, the echo of explosions, and slitting the throats of the infidels," he says.

*

The comparsion of newly built temples, stripped of all religious symbols to an ancient mosque is not valid. To expect that people who had their home destroyed to make way for race based homeland to not be rather pissed is asking a bit much.

I do not apologzie for these people, should I dredge up a comment from the Kookists and Kahnists and claim you are an apologist for them?

The Irish reference was to the part of Ireland not under British occupation. They are doing quite well, and the end of the occupation marked the beginning of the self determination that they siezed despite the chattering of the ruling classes of the time. That chattering can be heard once again.
heart
Looks like they want to go back to being part of Egypt to me.

I hope everyone will now focus their attention on Egypt....who isn't going to just "allow" free traffic....but will arrest those who dont' get on their side of the border before tonight! NOW...who had to do that before???

BBC:

Hamas blows hole in Gaza border

A Palestinian boy watches a section of the Gaza-Egypt border barrier is blown up by Palestinian militants

Palestinians watched as the explosions took place
Hamas militants have destroyed a section of a concrete barrier erected along the Gaza-Egypt border.

Palestinian and Egyptian troops have been trying to shore up the barrier to stop Palestinians crossing into Egypt after the withdrawal of Israeli troops.

In chaotic scenes, thousands of Palestinians have streamed over the border in the last few days without undergoing official checks.

Despite this, Egypt says that its Gaza border is officially closed.

Militants from Hamas cleared an area before setting off explosives that blew away a section of the wall. Palestinian security officers present did nothing to prevent them.

A local Hamas commander warned them not to try to intervene, AFP news agency reported.

'In prison'

The Egyptian authorities set a deadline of 1800 (1300 GMT) for people to return to the right side of the Gaza border or face arrest.

The mass crossings have raised questions as to whether Egypt can honour its deal with Israel and maintain security along the border, correspondents say.

Teacher in SC
I wouldn't dare to suggest I have adequate background to be commenting on this subject, but I would like to interject something. Just after 9/11 I realized how little I knew about the Arab world, even though I thought I'd done reasonable research during the Gulf War. The first book I picked up was The Haj by Leon Uris. I was so affected by that book that I have never been able to be particularly sensitive to the Palestinian cause. I know detractors will immediately point out that Uris was Jewish. That doesn't mean there wasn't truth in his book. As events unfolded since the reading of that book, cultural matters made more sense to me than they did to others with whom I would discuss the issues. It had been a history lesson as well as a view into the Arab mind. I have yet to read a story from the Middle East or from Iraq/Iran/Saudi Arabia that hasn't lined up with Uris's presentation of the culture. It is technically historical fiction, but so well researched that you don't come away unaffected.

Of course I've gone on to read other books and articles, but that one book left an imprint that has yet to be rationally disputed. I honestly don't see how the Judeo-Christian world will ever be able to be completely at peace with people who have been culturally taught to think the way Muslims think. We will keep trying to deal rationally with them, but that is not the thought process they have been raised to think with. It reminds me of the Japanese in WWII having been raised to think of their Emporer as God. There was no reasoning with people whose thought process can't see left or right. Once the bubble of what they thought was true burst, then there was room for new thinking.

Guess I'll have to go dig out that old tape I had from some time back that was a discussion between Chris Matthews and Hume Horan, who had been ambassador to Saudi Arabia at one time and had been removed because he could speak their language, and they didn't want him knowing what they were really saying! He talked about the Arab mind from his experience. Again it lined up with The Haj.
cardinal
QUOTE(beamer619 @ Sep 13 2005, 11:04 PM)
I am going to say something here that will probably get me in trouble.  It is my experience from watching this conflict from afar for many years that many Palestinians and others in the Arab world often seem angry, unstable and highly volatile, as though one cannot reason with them.  Does anyone else have this impression?
*
I'm left with the same impression. In the case of the green houses, they destroy the very things that would help them be self sufficient and then will continue to wallow in the same conditions that keep on breeding more of the same.
real_democrat
QUOTE(cardinal @ Sep 14 2005, 09:38 PM)
I'm left with the same impression.  In the case of the green houses, they destroy the very things that would help them be self sufficient and then will continue to wallow in the same conditions that keep on breeding more of the same.
*

Any time in history that occupiers have had to set the occupied free, people have said things like that. It is not for us to determine what others want or value, for they must determine that for themselves. To choose freedom on someone elses terms is to not choose freedom. Like the "great unwashed" throughout history, they will find their path. All we have to do is mind our own business.
heart
That might be true, but as you've pointed out repeatedly, they want US to give them money, build their security forces, and build their economy. Not to mention that we virtually pay for Egypt's miltiary in pure aid money. So, they aren't just destroying their own future and a way to make a viable living, they are also destroying OUR money, aid and will EXPECT and DEMAND that we give them money and enure their freedom irrespective of ANY agreements they have made to live up to their end of the bargain.

They are already saying that now they want more money, more economic investment, OR ELSE....they will continue suicide bombings. Israel is chastised every time they respond....so....G-d willing, Gaza will revert to being part of Egypt as it was before 1967!! They don't want them either, but if they blow open more holes in the walls, I suppose Egypt will be forced...then the world will turn away because somehow it's okay if Egypt does it. Then, for the next 2000 years, the Gazan's will blame the "occupation" for everything that happened from 1967 onward...as if it wasn't the cesspool of the world BEFORE then! Turn a few rocks over in Gaza and every foot or so you find the remains of every single conquering Arab or otherwise army that every passed that way.

David beat Golaith and Goliath was from Gaza....it's been going on THAT long...but to here them tell it, it was the catastrophe of the Jews.

Nope....there can be no good to come from this...they prove they cannot even be trusted for an hour with a house of god.
lazyboy
I read a quote from Kohii Annan that was more or less ''Young muslems feel victimized both in their countries and in the west, and the Iraq situation doesn't help.'' 2cents.gif
lazyboy
A Brazilian gets shot dead, he was not wearing a bulky jacket, he did not carry a rucksack. He is found to be no terrorist. Imagine how that makes most young men who look darkish and are aged under their early forties? I bet they have put away their rucksacks and would never wear one on the tube in London. It is really sad for them. Of course the only way to ensure your safety in that case would be to wear a skull cap that Jewish people wear. (Sorry I do not know the real name, feel free to enlighten me.) Either that or wear a suit and tie. A pity if you do not want to, or cannot afford to.
Alexander38
QUOTE(wileycoyote @ Sep 13 2005, 08:01 PM)
I heard on the news that Israel has stated that if there are any attacks upon her from Gaza they will take off the kid gloves.  Maybe we should start a lottery to place a bet on how many hours it will be before the Palestinians make the move. wink.gif
*


It will be more than a week since they will first have to share the loot among themself in Gaza.
After that when the first critical voices begins to murmour, there will come attacks against Israel to quite down the discontent by attacking the common enemy.



QUOTE(real_democrat @ Sep 15 2005, 05:28 AM)
Any time in history that occupiers have had to set the occupied free, people have said things like that. It is not for us to determine what others want or value, for they must determine that for themselves. To choose freedom on someone elses terms is to not choose freedom. Like the "great unwashed" throughout history, they will find their path. All we have to do is mind our own business.
*


Among those lessons that the palestinians have to learn is that there is no freebees in the world if you want to be independent,(Just look at the African mess) neither is their anybody there to stop you from going to hell in a handbasket by behaving incompetently or selfdestructive. + NOBODY is going to cry over their selfinflictet wounds.
They make their bed, they sleep in it.
real_democrat
QUOTE(heart @ Sep 14 2005, 11:44 PM)
That might be true, but as you've pointed out repeatedly, they want US to give them money, build their security forces, and build their economy.  Not to mention that we virtually pay for Egypt's miltiary in pure aid money.  So, they aren't just destroying their own future and a way to make a viable living, they are also destroying OUR money, aid and will EXPECT and DEMAND that we give them money and enure their freedom irrespective of ANY agreements they have made to live up to their end of the bargain. 

They are already saying that now they want more money, more economic investment, OR ELSE....they will continue suicide bombings.  Israel is chastised every time they respond....so....G-d willing, Gaza will revert to being part of Egypt as it was before 1967!!  They don't want them either, but if they blow open more holes in the walls, I suppose Egypt will be forced...then the world will turn away because somehow it's okay if Egypt does it.  Then, for the next 2000 years, the Gazan's will blame the "occupation" for everything that happened from 1967 onward...as if it wasn't the cesspool of the world BEFORE then!  Turn a few rocks over in Gaza and every foot or so you find the remains of every single conquering Arab or otherwise army that every passed that way. 

David beat Golaith and Goliath was from Gaza....it's been going on THAT long...but to here them tell it, it was the catastrophe of the Jews.

Nope....there can be no good to come from this...they prove they cannot even be trusted for an hour with a house of god.
*
Perhaps the need to go to Egypt is rather basic. If someone built a wall between you and your relatives and friends, and suddenly after some 20 years you could make it fall, what would you do?
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Art...national/Africa

QUOTE
"I haven't seen the people that live on the other side for 20 years. My son lives over there," said a 50-year-old woman who gave her name only as Umm Ishram, or "mother of Ishram," as she waited for her turn to squeeze through a tiny square opening that had been cut into the metal fence. She was carrying an empty suitcase she hoped to fill with cheaper goods on sale in Egypt, and a two-litre bottle of 7Up to fuel her on a journey she expected would be onerous.

"It's only natural that we on this side can see those on the other side."


I find it rather ironic you now seem to have an aversion to people in the middle east who expect and demand things now. And your reference to the threat of helping the Palestinains "OR ELSE...." rings hollow, since you have you have darkly suggested recently that even lacking our support Israel would prevail because they have nuclear weapons.

David and Goliath are irrelevent now. There is no refuting the brutal truth of an occupation that has been horror for the occupied and a burden and curse for the occupiers. The occupation of the West bank and Gaza has not helped secure Israel in the long run, it has only increased the divisions, and help promote the rise of extremism to the detriment of most Israelis, and the to benefit of few. The same effect as that our occupation of Iraq is having. Americans and Israelis now share the experiance of having their sons and daughters die for delusions of the powerful.
jeffmoskin
QUOTE(real_democrat @ Sep 15 2005, 05:19 AM)
Perhaps the need to go to Egypt is rather basic. If someone built a wall between you and your relatives and friends, and suddenly after some 20 years you could make it fall, what would you do?
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Art...national/Africa
I find it rather ironic you now seem to have an aversion to people in the middle east who expect and demand things now. And your reference to the threat of helping the Palestinains "OR ELSE...." rings hollow, since you have you have darkly suggested recently that even lacking our support Israel would prevail because they have nuclear weapons.

David and Goliath are irrelevent now. There is no refuting the brutal truth of an occupation that has been horror for the occupied and a burden and curse for the occupiers. The occupation of the West bank and Gaza has not helped secure Israel in the long run, it has only increased the divisions, and help promote the rise of extremism to the detriment of most Israelis, and the to benefit of few. The same effect as that our occupation of Iraq is having. Americans and Israelis now share the experiance of having their sons and daughters die for delusions of the powerful.
*



I find it interesting that in 1979, Begin tried to give Gaza back to Egypt, but Sadat said "no." That was 25 years ago. The so-called occupation had lasted only 12 years at that time. Perhaps the Gazans' rage is misdirected from the true cause of their misery - - - corruption and greed by their own so-called leaders.
real_democrat
QUOTE(jeffmoskin @ Sep 15 2005, 07:57 AM)
I find it interesting that in 1979, Begin tried to give Gaza back to Egypt, but Sadat said "no." That was 25 years ago. The so-called occupation had lasted only 12 years at that time. Perhaps the Gazans' rage is misdirected from the true cause of their misery - - - corruption and greed by their own so-called leaders.
*

Why is it a "so-called" occupation? The Gazans have indeed suffered poor leadership, but, like all people thoughout history whose land is occupied by an invading nation, it is the invaders who bring the misery. And when the invading nation has a policy of building homes for the invaders where people once lived, it is difficult to argue with them.
Beamer
QUOTE(beamer619 @ Sep 13 2005, 08:04 PM)
I am going to say something here that will probably get me in trouble.  It is my experience from watching this conflict from afar for many years that many Palestinians and others in the Arab world often seem angry, unstable and highly volatile, as though one cannot reason with them.  Does anyone else have this impression?
*


Found this article about the Arab identity:

QUOTE
Arab Identity: E Pluribus Unum
Halim Barakat

From The Arab World: Society, Culture and State
© 1993 University of California Press
This book is available online from the publisher.

Introduction

A critical study of Arab consciousness of a sense of identity begins by discarding idealist views of identity that overemphasize similarities. My analysis is dialectical, attaching greater significance to common characteristics and interests in the context of history and networks of relationships. Contextualization allows us to connect similarities as well as distinctive differences.

From this perspective, identity refers to the sharing of essential elements that define the character and orientation of people and affirm their common needs, interests, and goals with reference to joint action. At the same time it recognizes the importance of differences. Simply put, a nuanced view of national identity does not exclude heterogeneity and plurality. This is not an idealized view, but one rooted in sociological inquiry, in which heterogeneity and shared identity together help form potential building blocks of a positive future for the Arab world.

Yet the dilemma of reconciling plurality and unity constitutes an integral part of the definition of Arab identity. In fact, one flaw in the thinking by Arabs about themselves is the tendency toward an idealized concept of identity as something that is already completely formed, rather than as something to be achieved. Hence, there is a lack of thinking about the conditions that contribute to the making and unmaking of national identity. The belief that unity is inevitable, a foregone conclusion, flows from this idealized view of it.

Another equally serious flaw is the tendency among Arab nationalists to think in terms of separate and independent forces of unity and forces of divisiveness, ignoring the dialectical relationship between these forces. Thus, we have been told repeatedly that there are certain elements of unity (such as language, common culture, geography, or shared history) as well as certain elements of fragmentation (such as imperialism, sectarianism, tribalism, ethnic solidarity [ shu'ubiyya ], localism, or regionalism). If, instead, we view these forces from the vantage point of dialectical relations, the definition of Arab identity involves a simultaneous and systematic examination of both the processes of unification and fragmentation. This very point makes it possible to argue that Arabs can belong together without being the same; similarly, it can be seen that they may have antagonistic relations without being different. Furthermore, under certain specific conditions that must be consciously created by Arabs themselves, old identities may fade, and new ones emerge.

Thus, it is necessary to describe the forces of unity and the forces of divisiveness in relation to each other. These forces operate within the context of underlying conflicts and confrontations and under certain specific conditions. Arab identity is therefore developed to the extent that it manifests itself through a sense of belonging and a diversity of affiliations. Arab identity relies, as well, on a shared culture and its variations. Arabs also recognize a shared place in history and common experiences. Similarly, social formations and shared economic interests have helped to shape Arab identity. And, finally, Arab identity is shaped by specific, shared external challenges and conflicts.



The Arab Sense of Belonging

The great majority of the citizens of Arab countries view themselves and are viewed by outsiders as Arabs. Their sense of Arab nationhood is based on what they have in common_namely, language, culture, sociopolitical experiences, economic interests, and a collective memory of their place and role in history. This sense of nationhood is constantly being formed and reformed, reflecting changing conditions and self-conceptions; together these exclude complete separation as well as complete integration. In all instances, the way communities relate to one another is reinforced by shared images and conceptions, and not merely by what they actually are. As a result of the combined influence of these conditions and orientations, identity may acquire narrower or wider meatings in particular historical circumstances.

Since its inception, Arab national identity has been seen as based primarily on language. Albert Hourani began his most famous book, Arabic Thought in the Liberal Age, with the statement that Arabs are "more conscious of their language than any people in the world." 1 This notion is asserted even more strongly by Jacques Berque, who points out that "the East is the home of the word," that "the Arabic language scarcely belongs to the world of men; rather, it seems to be lent to them," and that "Arabic writing is more suggestive than informative." 2

It has often been stated that the great majority of Arabs speak Arabic as their mother tongue and thus feel that they belong to the same nation regardless of race, religion, tribe, or region. This explains the tendency to dismiss the existing states as artificial and to call for political unity coinciding with linguistic identity. The prevailing view is that only a small minority of the citizens of Arab countries do not speak Arabic as their mother tongue and lack a sense of being Arab; this minority category includes the Kurds, Berbers, Armenians, and the ethnolinguistic groups of southern Sudan. 3 Fewer still are those who speak Arabic as their mother tongue without sharing with the majority a sense of nationhood, a trend that may exist among the Maronites of Lebanon in times of conflict. Most other minority groups, such as the Orthodox Christians, Shi'ites, Alawites, and Druze, consider themselves Arabs with some qualifications and reservations.

There is, in fact, unanimous agreement among theoreticians of Arab nationalism on the great significance of language. The Iraqi historian Abd al-Aziz Duri has observed that it was language that historically contributed to the development of Arab consciousness prior to the emergence of Islam. 4 Initially, Arabism "had an ethnic focus, but [it] later took on a linguistic and cultural connotation. The two currents, Islam and Arabism, were closely linked at first, but subsequently followed separate courses. While both remained important to Arab development, it was the successes and failures of Arabism that determined the eventual geographic and human boundaries of the Arab nation." 5

This relationship between language and national identity is stressed more emphatically by another Iraqi scholar and ideologue, Sati' al-Husari, who dismisses several other elements, including religion, economy, and geography, as irrelevant to the formation of nationalism. For him, only language and history define national identity. The former is "the heart and spirit of the nation," and the latter is its "memory and feeling." Consequently, those "people who speak one language must have one heart and one spirit, and so they must constitute one nation and therefore one state." 6 (Language, it should be noted here, is not a mere instrument of communication or container of ideas and feelings; it is the embodiment of a whole culture and a set of linkages across time and space.)

The conception of Arab identity as being primarily linguistic lends itself to several criticisms. First, some other basic elements have to be taken into account in any serious and systematic attempt at defining national identity. These other elements are many and varied; they include social formations, economy, geography, culture in a broad sense, ethnicity, regionalism, external challenges and conflicts, and religion. (I shall have more to say about each of these in the following chapters.) Second, a definition of Arab identity in linguistic terms would have to demonstrate the uniqueness of the Arabic language in comparison to those of other societies in which groups shared the same language but evolved into different nationalities. Third, a definition of Arab identity rooted primarily or solely in language tends to ignore several aspects of the present state of the Arabic language_such as the continuing gap between written and spoken Arabic, the different Arab dialects, the bilingualism in some Arab countries, and the limited literacy of the Arab masses. It is true that literary Arabic "tends to become the spoken language of the whole of the Arab world" 7 _a development that took Arabic in the opposite direction from Latin, which evolved into separate languages_but these aspects cannot be ignored. Fourth, the Arab sense of belonging has to be assessed in the light of overlapping and conflicting affiliations. Among the most significant of these overlapping identities are religious, regional, kinship or tribal and ethnic affiliations. Let us look briefly at each of these identities in turn.

Since the overwhelming majority of Arabs are Muslim, the two identities are often viewed as inseparable. Indeed, the people of the Maghrib hyphenated the two in an attempt to assert their distinctive character vis-a-vis the European invaders. In the eastern Arab world, however, there have been two divergent currents within Arabism_one essentially religious and the other more secular. In comparison to Islamic reformers like Jamal Eddin al-Afghani, Muhammed Abdu, and Rashid Rida, early Muslim and non-Muslim Arabists viewed Arab nationalism as a secular alternative to the Islamic Ottoman caliphate. The concept of umma (nation) began to lose its religious meaning and to refer to solidarity based on common language, territory, economic interests, culture, history, and destiny. As the demand for Arab rights within the Ottoman caliphate grew, some of these early Muslims, Christians and Jews were 'Arab' before they were members of their respective religious communities." 8

Yet, most Arabists, especially today in response to the emergence of Islamic fundamentalism, continue to assert the complementarity, if not the synonymity, of Islam and Arabism. For example, Abd al-Aziz Duri has concluded that "Islam unified Arabs and provided them with a message, an ideological framework, and a state." He also noted that "the Islamic movement came about as Arab in its environment and leadership," and that Arabs in the formative era of Islam had "a strong sense of their unity and distinctiveness, for the state was Arab, the language was Arabic, and Arabs were the carriers of the message of Islam." 9 As pointed out earlier, Duri himself has indicated that Islam and Arabism "were closely linked at first, but subsequently followed separate courses." 10

Another prominent Arab historian, Constantine Zurayk argues that tensions have existed between Islam and other forms of solidarity throughout its history. Tribal, ethnic. and nationalist loyalties have remained alive, undermining the establishment of genuine unity within the umma . With respect to the relationship between Islam and Arabism, Zurayk concludes that "from the beginning a certain ambivalence existed between Islam and Arabism. Islam is a universal religion, but it was revealed to an Arab prophet through the Arabic tongue, and its rise and early spread beyond Arabia were due to Arab zeal, energy and struggle. The Umayyad rule in Damascus was, to a large extent, Arab in attitude and policy. The non-Arab converts, largely of Persian stock, were reduced to the ranks of clients ( mawali ), which caused them to become disaffected, to seek to vindicate (in the name of Islam) their claim to equality with the Arabs, and to work for the overthrow of Arab dominance." These very conditions contributed to the emergence of shu'ubiyya (peoplehood or ethnicity). Islamic political life became "an arena of conflict between Arabs, Persians, Turks, Kurds, and Berbers." 11

Such developments, Duri points out, "furthered the idea that the umma was something based on the Arabic language and Arab culture. This was often stated by writers of the third/ninth century and after. Jahiz, for example, considered Arabic the most important tie.... Ibn Qutaiba defended Arabic and the Arabs as being a nation before Islam and after. Farabi found that language, natural traits, and character comprised formative elements of the umma .... He distinguished the human umma from the milla based on religion. Mas'udi talked of the major nations ( umam ) in history, and indicated their formative elements: a) geographic conditions ... and b-) language... Ibn Khaldun ... generally used umma to mean nation and milla to mean religious community." 12

What does "community" mean in the distinction between Arabism and nationalism? The twentieth century witnessed the collapse of the Ottoman Islamic caliphate and the rise of nationalism. The conflict between the two currents, however, has continued unabated to the present time, when Islamic fundamentalism is posing itself as an alternative to secular nationalism (see Chapters 7 and 8). Indeed, the new emergence of fundamentalism has now problematized the relationship between nationalism and religious identity. The predominance of Islam (90 percent of Arabs are Muslims) and the rise of religious fundamentalism since the Iranian revolution in 1979 do not in the long run mean a downgrading of secular nationalism. Religious fundamentalism lends itself to many conflicting interpretations. It is also responsible for the creation of opposition forces within its ranks, and for internal and external as well as conservative and radical manipulations. Furthermore, as will be demonstrated in a separate chapter on religious behavior, social analysis reveals the predominance of sect over religion per se. The prevailing socioeconomic structures and political arrangements promote sectarian and communal affiliations within the same society at the expense of a more general and shared religiosity, as well as of national and class interests.

Thus the relationship between sectarianism and Arabism is also important to sort out. Persons and groups in the eastern Arab world see themselves and are seen by others in religious terms_as Sunnis, Shi'ites, Druze, Alawites, and Maronites. They are not merely members of a certain religion, however, but first and foremost are seen as Arabs. In fact, the social-psychological distances between some sects within the same religion may be greater than the distance perceived between different religions. This situation is not exclusively confined to Lebanon. The Kuwaiti sociologist Muhammed Rumayhi detected such distances between Sunnis and Shi'ites in the Gulf states even before the Iraq-Iran war, noting that in the 1970s "no Sunni candidate who ran for elections could win in electoral districts inhabited mostly by Shi'ites. Similarly, no Shi'ite candidate could win in Sunni electoral districts.... It has become a tradition that electoral districts are closed circles for specific tribes and sects." 13 These sectarian solidarities have to be examined in the larger context of social and political organization, as well as patterns of hierarchical arrangements. As will be shown later, sectarianism is a mechanism for maintaining certain privileges or for redressing grievances.

What is the place of minorities in the use of sectarianism as identity? It may be argued that the above analysis cannot be applied to the Maghrib, because only Sunnis are present there. Instead, a more abstract characterization is made in the Maghrib of its identity as Islamic-Arab, using the motto of the Algerian revolution, "Islam is our religion, Arabic is our language, and Algeria is our homeland." Yet, on an intra-Arab or intra-Islamic level, even an open-minded and enlightened Moroccan intellectual and political leader such as 'Allal al-Fassi could not transcend sectarianism. This is shown in his explanation of why the Fatimids (a Shi'ite dynasty that ruled portions of northern Africa in A.D. 909-1171), who maintained that the caliph must be a descendant of the Prophet through his daughter Fatima, did not last long in Morocco. He says it was "because the idea they supported disagrees with the spirit of freedom that the nature of the land required ... as well as with the Islamic model ... which does not recognize the racial supremacy of a family or an individual." 14

Beyond sectarianism is local or regional identity. A persistently strong affiliation undermining Arab national identity is wataniyya (regionalism or patriotism). Even artificially created countries seem to be developing identities of their own. Jordan, Kuwait and the Gulf states, Lebanon, and others have managed through the formation of sovereign orders and socialization to create separate identities. Increasingly, citizens of these countries define themselves and are defined by others in terms of their local affiliations. Nonetheless, they continue to assert their Arab identity and lament Arab disunity and divisiveness, while clinging to their existing local identities. In times of crisis and intra-Arab conflicts (such as the 1990-91 Gulf crisis), however, local identities tend to prevail only at the expense of Arab nationalism. In this context, local ruling families and classes lack legitimacy. Nevertheless, they have become increasingly entrenched through regional and international alliances and through the development of vested interests among influential segments of population who want to preserve the status quo. On normative and rhetorical levels, local leaders continue to assert their Arab identity and the need for Arab unity. They refer to the Arab world, and not their own countries, as constituting the umma . Yet they follow their own separate courses at the expense of Arabism.

Another ironic development is the peculiar brand of Arabism practiced by some pan-Arab regimes. Roger Owen has observed that control over mass media and education by these pan-Arab regimes was used to promote a "brand of Arabism designed to suggest that only the local regime was properly Arab or capable of acting in a truly Arab interest. Little by little the vocabulary of Arabism was altered to accommodate ideas and concepts designed to highlight regional difference and local particularity." 15

Thus, besides the gap between words and deeds, there have been throughout the modern era three major nationalist orientations in the Arab world. As we have seen, one is pan-Arabism, which dismisses existing sovereign states as artificial creations and calls for Arab unity. Another is the local nationalist orientation, which insists on preserving the independence and sovereignty of existing states. In between these two is a regional nationalist orientation that seeks to establish some regional unity, such as a greater Syria or a greater Maghrib, either permanently or as a step toward a larger Arab unity.

The presence of these various national trends and the emergence of conflicts between wataniyya (patriotism) and qawmiyya (nationalism) have encouraged the development of scholarly investigations of the relationship between "Arab personality" and "regional personalities." For instance, the Egyptian sociologist El-Sayyid Yassin asks: "Is there one Arab national personality in spite of the multiplicity and variance of Arab regions from the [Atlantic] ocean to the Gulf? What are the characteristic features of this Arab personality? If there were an Arab national personality, how can we explain the psychological, civilizational, and social differences between the Iraqi personality and the Egyptian personality and the Tunisian personality?" 16 Attempting a normative and conciliatory conclusion, Yassin says that the Arab personality constitutes "the primary pattern," while "regional personalities" constitute "the secondary patterns."

Reconciling these varieties of nationalism continues to be the most challenging task confronting Arabs in their attempt to achieve the nahda . So far the efforts made to legitimize the status quo continue to work against an ability to transcend and to synthesize conflicting or overlapping affiliations.

The fact that the family constitutes the basic unit of social organization in traditional contemporary Arab society (see Chapter 6) may explain why it continues to exert so much influence on identity formation. At the center of social and economic activities, it remains a very cohesive social institution, exerting the earliest and most lasting impact on a person's affiliations.

Tribalism, too, continues to undermine the unity of the umma in both its Islamic and secular nationalist versions. As the prominent Lebanese Shi'i spiritual leader Muhammed Mahdi Shamseddin has pointed out, Islam has "attempted to destroy tribal solidarity by diverse means in order to establish a community based on unity of belief." 17 The triumph of Islam in unifying conflicting tribes into an umma of believers does not mean that it has managed to eliminate tribalism. Tribes themselves have also managed to use Islam in diverse ways. The Egyptian scholar Muhammed 'Amara notes that since the earliest period of Islamic history, the state has tended to resort to tribalism as a means of balancing society's conflicting forces. 18 A similar conclusion is reached by Zurayk, who writes that whereas Arabs were able to transcend their old religious beliefs in favor of Islam, "it was not as easy for them ... to rid themselves of their loyalties to tribe and clan for the sake of the new loyalty to the umma . During the whole of the formative period, and indeed throughout Islamic history to the present day, tension has persisted between tribal and Islamic affiliations." 19

The same tension exists between tribalism and secular nationalism in contemporary Arab society. Both popular nationalist movements and ruling regimes have attempted to combat or use tribalism to advance their causes. This is particularly true in Arab countries that are more tribally constituted than others, such as Arabia, Sudan, and the Maghrib. The Saudi family, itself a branch of the 'Aneza tribe, has attempted to stitch together a mosaic of tribes into a nation-state. Through all sorts of inducements, and confrontations, tribes have been contained in a stable political system. Yet the tribes continue to distinguish between two aspects of this political system: the dawla, or modern state bureaucracy, and the hukuma, or members of the Saudi royal family. Their allegiance is to the latter rather than the former. 20 A second example is the Arab Maghrib, where process of transition from tribal societies to nation-states is evidenced by the disappearance of the traditional circles of power referred to earlier, the Bled el-Makhzen, or intermediary tribes allied with the central government, and the Bled es-Siba, or dissident tribes. Yet tribal organization has continued to "constitute an obstacle to the political unification" of Maghribi societies. 21 Another case in point is the unique coincidence of sect, tribe, and political movements in the Sudan. The Umma party has represented the Mahdiyya or Ansar religious order of the Mahdi family. Similarly, the National Unionist party has represented the Khatmiyya religious order of the Al-Hindi family. This recalls the coincidence of religion (Wahabi sect) and family (Al-Saud) in Arabia and of the characterization of the various Lebanese religious sects as "tribes in disguise." 22

The intensity of the conflict between tribalism and nationalism, as well as the coincidence of sect, regionalism, tribe, and rural-urban divisions, is highly acute in Yemen, where political loyalties have coincided with and reinforced sectarian and tribal divisions. The former socialist order in southern Yemen could not avoid the transformation of political rivalries into violent tribal confrontations. These illustrations and others attest to the continuation of tribalism as a force opposed to the concept of the umma in both its Islamic and secular nationalist versions.

Ethnicity is defined in cultural and linguistic terms as well as in terms of descent from distant common ancestors. Occasionally, Arab identity is linked to the descent of the Arabs from the 'Adnanites Qahtanites, and other tribes, and to their constituting an ethnic group. Once this definition is made, however, the dilemma emerges of reconciling it with other ethnic groups within the Arab world_such as the Kurds, Berbers, Circassians, Assyrians, Chaldaeans, Jews, Armenians, and the African communities of southern Sudan. For example, there are about 572 tribes and 56 ethnic groups in the Sudan. In "each region there is one major ethnic group dominating the others, i.e., the Arabs in Blue Nile, Khartoum, Kordofan, Northern and Kassala provinces, the Fur in Darfur province, the Nilotics in Bahr el-Ghazqal and upper Nile provinces and the Nilo-Hamites in Equatoria province." 23

The Berbers of the Maghrib, who call themselves Imazighen (singular, Amazigh), are related to one another by a common language with different dialects as well as by claims of bedouin and tribal origins-claims that facilitated Islamization and Arabization. Some estimates indicate that they constitute about 40 percent of the population of Morocco and two-thirds of its rural population; they are about 30 percent in Algeria. The Islamic conquest resulted in the total Islamization of the Berbers and their partial Arabization. Attempts at imposing an Arab identity on the Berber population led to its seclusion in the Rif and Atlas mountains. This isolation "allowed the Berber language to survive and preserve its vitality and folklore." 24

By contrast, European colonization cultivated Arab-Berber differences. This included attempts to de-Arabize Algeria and to establish a separate Berberistan, while maintaining Islam. As noted by the Tunisian sociologist Elbaki Hermassi, the French policy "developed the Kabyle myth in Algeria. The Algerian Berbers were considered more assimilable than the Moroccan Berbers because they were assumed to be more 'superficially Islamic.' Because of this distinction, the French permitted them their local assemblies, their customs, and representation . . . the whole policy was designed to prevent the two peoples of Algeria from growing accustomed to contact with each other." 25

The Kurds also define themselves in linguistic and cultural terms. Their tribes speak different dialects and form the local majority in northern and north-eastern Iraq. Based on their ethnic distinctiveness, they have been seeking self-rule for Kurdistan (including parts of Turkey, Iraq, and Iran). This desire has put them in open conflict with the states of the area, which insist on their own national territorial integrity. Though several plans have been proposed to accommodate them, Kurdish grievances continue to foster their restlessness and efforts for independent self-expression. 26 Their uprisings have collapsed amid desperate feelings of betrayal by Western and regional instigators.

These kinds of ethnic and other affiliations coincide with several vertical and horizontal forces undermining Arab national identity. Religious, regional, tribal and ethnic, and other cleavages have been constantly exacerbated by conditions of underdevelopment, socioeconomic inequalities, political repression, and foreign intervention. Constituting a unique system of multiple affiliations, they have hindered efforts at Arab unity. We turn now to other variables and affinities before reaching relatively definitive conclusions on the nature of Arab identity and prospects for social and political integration.



Shared Culture and Its Variations

Next to language, a single, shared culture has often been cited as the most basic element in Arab national identity. One implicit assumption here is that the great majority of the population in the Arab world "is Arabic in language and therefore to a great extent in culture." 27 Another basic assumption of this literature is that a common culture is derived from the fact that more than 90 percent of Arabs are Muslim by faith. Implicitly, then, Arab culture is viewed as basically religious in form and literary in expression. It is what most Arabs share, regardless of their diverse affiliations.

Yet in assessing the role of such common culture in the formation of Arab national identity, one needs to take note of some special considerations. First, the most commonly accepted operational definition of culture in the social sciences refers to three aspects: a) the entire or total way of life of people, including a shared social heritage, visions of social reality, value orientations, beliefs, customs, norms, traditions, skills, and the like; b-) artistic achievements; and c) knowledge or thought and the sciences. (These aspects of culture are acquired through human association or communication with others in society. In Part III of this book, separate chapters are devoted to these aspects of Arab culture.) Second, the culture of any society is characterized by specificity and distinctiveness_or uniqueness owing to social formations, patterns of living, modes of production, socialization, and adjustment to the environment by a community of people. In other words, culture represents the complete design for living of a community of people inhabiting a particular environment.

Culture is rarely characterized by complete uniformity. On the contrary, its dynamism reflects diversity, pluralism, and contradictions. In the Arab case, this includes several different levels of cultural foci. Not unlike others, Arab society has its own dominant culture, constructed from what is most common and diffused among Arabs. In addition, it has its subcultures, those peculiar to some communities, and its countercultures, those of alienated and radical groups. Arab dominant culture is derived from interaction among these levels of culture, and from Arab collective memory, but it is constantly reinterpreted and cultivated by those in control of the resources of society, at the expense of others. The process of socialization in this case is often based on repression and inducements. Subcultures are represented by different patterns of living (such as rural, urban, or bedouin); by social formations (such as mercantilist or agricultural); by social class differences and contradictions (such as high, bourgeois, and mass cultures); by religious and sectarian affiliations (such as Sunni, Shi'ite, Druze, Alawi, Isma'ili, Copt, Orthodox, Maronite, Catholic, Protestant, or Jewish); and by ethnicity (such as Kurd or Berber). Countercultures are represented in Arab society by alienated intellectuals, uprooted communities, and radical movements.

ThusArab culture is in a constant state of becoming. This state results from internal contradictions, new social formations and the utilization of resources such as oil, encounters with other cultures, and innovativeness. There would not have been any need to assert this fact were it not for the misrepresentation of reality by both Western Orientalists and traditional Arab scholars. Western Orientalists have tended to emphasize the "constant" rather than the "changing" nature of Arab culture and the "oneness" of the "Arab mind" rather than the "pluralism" inherent in a distinctive Arab culture. Similarly, traditional Arab scholars have tended to emphasize some sort of traditional values and to focus on conforming to a traditional model rather than what actually exists. In such a traditional view, authenticity is deprived of creativity, genuineness, and open-mindedness. The contemporary discourse in Islamist circles reduces authenticity to a dismissal of ideas and innovations considered alien ( dakhil, wafid, majlub, bud'a ) to Arab culture. Notions such as nationalism, democracy, socialism, class analysis, secularism, and several others are dismissed as being borrowed or imported from the West. The Egyptian scholar Tariq al-Bushri, for instance, has described secularism as an alien plant, nabt wafid, which did not begin to grow in the Arab "intellectual and civilizational environment" before the beginning of the twentieth century. 28 Using more sophisticated notions, the Moroccan scholar Muhammed Abed al-Jabri describes secularism as originating in European civilization and hiding "behind the mask of nationalist discourse." 29 In reply to these characterizations, I would argue that the distinctiveness of Arab cultural identity needs to take account of a highly complex human reality as it now exists. .



The Place of Arabs in History and Their Common Experiences

Intra-Arab conflicts and the reinforcement of the boundaries that separate Arab countries stand in sharp contrast to the place of Arabs in history and their sense of common historical experiences. All sorts of barriers have hindered the free movement of people, products, and ideas across heavily guarded artificial borders. More often than not, the closer Arab countries are geographically, the greater the conflicts and the less the communication between them. Political disagreements over minor and major issues may develop into open conflicts even at times of external threat and acute national crisis. Domestic as well as foreign policies are increasingly being determined by immediate rather than long-term local interests.

In fact, one of the obstacles to Arab unity is the growing social-psychological distance resulting from a lack of communication. First, there has been a process of economic disintegration. Each Arab country is being increasingly_and separately_integrated into the world capitalist system. So the greater the dependency of the peripheral Arab countries on the centers of this capitalist system, the less the economic exchanges and links among the Arab countries themselves. Second, except for decreasing labor migration between oil-producing and non-oil-producing countries, travel across Arab borders has been made extremely difficult. Even when allowed, travel between Arab countries has been frustrating and humiliating. Third, a strict process of censorship undermines cultural exchange among Arab countries. A policy of cultural self-sufficiency is in effect almost everywhere. Governmental control over the mass media and culture is accompanied by the banning of publications produced in other Arab countries. Each government has its own publishing houses and publications. Unlike in earlier times, when literature in Arabic was discussed and referred to as Arabic, increasingly it is being presented and promoted by literary critics as Egyptian, Iraqi, Syrian, Lebanese, Algerian, Jordanian, Kuwaiti, Saudi, Tunisian, Qatari and the like. Fourth, censorship is encompassing ever-broader areas and topics. Lists of taboos are growing to include wider political, religious, and sexual topics and terms or even criticisms of other rulers and governments that are friendly.

These instances of lack of communication cannot be explained by the absence or weakness of Arab national feelings among the people. On the contrary, they might be interpreted as indicative of the strength of such feelings in the face of the insecurity and illegitimacy of the Arab regimes themselves. Evidence supporting this interpretation is the gap between the words and deeds of Arab rulers and officials and between their public and private statements. On a normative level, their words and public statements continue to proclaim their unwavering commitment to "the causes of the Arab nation" and to lament deteriorating relationships. They do so without acknowledging their own responsibility, instead blaming the deterioration completely on other Arabs and antagonistic external forces. This disunity occurs despite the fact that the Arab people themselves share common historical experiences. National disasters such as the exile of the Palestinians in 1948, the defeat of the Arabs in the Six-Day War of 1967, and the Gulf War have become an integral part of the Arab psyche and its collective consciousness. The same is true of both ancient and contemporary victories. In recent times, the heroic Egyptian defense of the Suez Canal in 1956, the Lebanese resistance following the Israeli invasion of 1982, and the Algerian war of liberation of 1954-62 have been sources of inspiration and pride for the great majority of Arabs. Contacts with fellow Arabs, no matter how geographically distant, almost always lead to the development of strong negative or positive rather than neutral feelings toward one another. This strong feeling can only be attributed to the identification and mutual expectations generated by a common history and destiny. Moreover, the sense of common identity has been strengthened in modern times by opposition to Western penetration.



Shared Economic Interests

Studies of the nature of the relationship between economic life and the emergence or weakening of Arab national identity have reached almost diametrically opposed conclusions. Defining Arab nationalism in linguistic and cultural terms, Sati' al-Husari warns against "the consideration of economic interests as a basic element in the formation of nationalism," which he considers contrary to "requisites of reason and logic." 30 For him, the assignment of the country into agricultural, industrial, commercial, and tourist areas sets them apart. The assumption here is that national unity is based on similarity, rather than on the interdependence or complementarity of a division of labor. Another Arab nationalist, Adib Nassur, has warned that notions of economic inequalities and class analysis will eventually lead to splitting the ranks of Arab nationalists into opposing camps. 31

In contrast, another body of literature on the formation and decline of Arab nationalism highlights the relevance of the economic variable. Samir Amin, for instance, emphasizes the historical significance of mercantile relations and long-distance trade in the formation of the Arab nation. It was this urban commercial class that controlled the central state apparatus and ensured economic and political unity. Once the power of this social class faded, the nation began to "regress into a formless conglomeration of more or less related ethnicities"; the decline of commerce "had caused the Arab world to lose its previous unity." 32 Similarly, Walid Kaziha concludes that Arab nationalism represents "an expression of the ambitions of certain social forces" and that its decline came about as a result of the weakening of those forces. 33 Zurayk also stresses the significance of the economic variable as a unifying force. The future trend of human development, he points out, "is toward larger and larger societies, and not toward narrow, powerless, and confined societies which cannot confront the complex economic and political situations and necessities of the scientific and technological revolution. Modern life . . . requires accumulation of natural resources, human skills and expertise . . . . Hence the limitation of small states . . . in meeting the necessities of modern life." 34

Cultural and economic analysts might agree, however, that certain economic conditions can contribute to social and political fragmentation. For instance, growing disparities between rich and poor Arab countries have created further rifts between them, notwithstanding labor migration and other forms of interdependency between oil-producing and non-oil-producing Arab countries. 35 Another instance of how economic factors may contribute to Arab national fragmentation is the expansion of European commerce in the nineteenth century to the benefit of certain minorities at the expense of the majority of the population. Philip Khoury has pointed out that during the twenty years leading up to the events of 1860 in Lebanon and Syria, the economic impact of Europe was heightened in that some religious groups "enriched themselves by serving as agents of European interests." 36



External Challenges and Political Unity

A classic sociological principle proposes a positive relationship between external conflicts and internal cohesion, but an exclusive focus on the integrative function of external conflicts represents a one-sided analysis. 37 One such exclusive focus is the constantly expressed view that the only thing Arabs agree on is hatred of Israel. A more systematic application of the theory of conflict to the Arab situation has been attempted by Nadim Bitar, who holds that the Palestinian problem has generated movement in the direction of revolutionary Arab unity. 38

A closer reexamination of the Arab situation would, however, show that under certain conditions, external conflicts and challenges may actually lead to further fragmentation and disruption. The creation of artificial states in the Arab world has rendered it more vulnerable to disruption when confronting intense external challenges. Furthermore, against the background of continuing Arab dependency on the West, as well as the emergence of nation-states and established ruling groups, external conflicts have proved very disruptive. the coincidence of sect, regionalism, tribe, and rural-urban divisions, is highly acute in Yemen, where political loyalties have coincided with and reinforced sectarian and tribal divisions. The former socialist order in southern Yemen could not avoid the transformation of political rivalries into violent tribal confrontations. These illustrations and others attest to the continuation of tribalism as a force opposed to the concept of the umma in both its Islamic and secular nationalist versions.

Contrary to repeated claims, events have demonstrated that the establishment of Israel and the ensuing related conflicts contributed to further political fragmentation. Both Arab regimes and the Palestinian leadership have been divided over such issues as the nature of the confrontation with Israel and the resolution of the Palestinian problem. One source of divisiveness since the inception of the Palestinian problem has been the split between those who favor negotiations and a peaceful solution (in spite of dim prospects) and those who favor armed struggle against all odds. This split is further compounded by accompanying conflicts between old and new orders, repressive regimes and popular movements, pro-Western and nationalist and well as reactionary and progressive forces, and moderate and rejectionist camps.



Conclusion

A critical approach to the study of Arab national identity, such as that attempted here, reveals that it has been undergoing a process of continuous change. The presence of conflicting affiliations and threatening challenges may attest to its dynamism rather than to its static nature. This very dynamic quality means, however, that Arab society may or may not succeed in its struggle to achieve political and social integration. Success will be determined by the will of Arabs to attend precisely to this historical task. Although they have failed miserably to achieve their objectives so far, their struggle has not necessarily been in vain. It is a fact that the nahda continues to be unfulfilled and that a gap separates the dream from reality. Hence, one witnesses deep and comprehensive alienation. Strong feelings of anger and cynicism have emerged over the marginalization of the Arab world, once located at the very center of human affairs. Arabs feel strongly, too, about deprivation in the midst of unprecedented wealth, and about the impotence of ruling groups in times of trying challenges. True, the Arab world in its present circumstances does not constitute a single coherent system or civil society as much as a multiplicity of societies. Besides the growing development of local and regional identities at the expense of a more comprehensive nationalism, all the existing nation-states function independently of one another and rarely in terms of Arab national interests.

These conditions of alienation and the lack of civil society do not necessarily constitute an Arab retreat from historical challenges. (I say this because there are those who see expressions of alienation on the part of Arab intellectuals as a sign of retreat: the bewilderment with which contemporary writers have been looking at their society has in recent years prompted some scholars to announce the death of Arab nationalism.) 39 On the contrary, I see such expressions of bewilderment as a sign of vitality and dynamism in Arab culture.

It is out of deep identification that these writers speak of the stark reality confronting Arab society. The world for them always indicates a new beginning. Each genuinely expresses the outcry of the Arab people, searching constantly for unity and the will to change in order to attain true nationhood. They know full well that it is not impossible to transcend the present reality and to remake their society.


http://arabworld.nitle.org/texts.php?modul...d=51&sequence=2
poetpj
The synagogues and greenhouses should not have been destroyed this way. Isreal should have taken down the synagogues as I believe they said they would do. Destroying the greenhouses was just plain mob mentality reaction.
Peace and investment will come to Gaza only when the militias disarm. Only peaceful pressure on the part of Palestinians for a fair settlement with Israel will bring about a final settlement between Israel and Palestine. But expanding Jewish settlements in the West Bank is a provocation on the part of Israel.
Is that even-handed enough? Peace begats peace. Violence begats more violence. The occupation needs to end. Terrorism needs to end. There is blame enough to go around on both sides, and oh my yes that is wishful thinking that both sides will somehow quit trying to pi-- each other off, but sometimes wishes do come true. But if wishes are never pursued they can never be realised...
jeffmoskin
QUOTE(real_democrat @ Sep 15 2005, 09:01 AM)
Why is it  a "so-called" occupation? The Gazans have indeed suffered poor leadership, but, like all people thoughout history whose land is occupied by an invading nation, it is the invaders who bring the misery. And when the invading nation has a policy of building homes for the invaders where people once lived, it is difficult to argue with them.
*

Try this once:

They are called "occupied" by the Arabs and "disputed" by the Israelis. This bipolar disorder is the result of a little incident that happened in 1967 when six Arab countries amassed their armies along the three borders of Israel with the announced intention of driving the Jews into the sea.

When the smoke cleared six days later, the Israelis were in CONTROL of all the land from the Sinai Peninsula to the Jordan River. That's not what the Arabs expected, but that is how it turned out.

Hence, the territories are administered by the Israelis (who do a far better job than the Arabs in sanitation and public works, and who are rewarded for this by being called "occupiers."

All the Israelis really want is to be able to take their shoes off when they sit in their lounge chairs, to paraphrase Tom Friedman. But one tends to want to keep them on when rockets sail over into Sderot, for example.
real_democrat
QUOTE(jeffmoskin @ Sep 15 2005, 05:57 PM)
Try this once:

They are called "occupied" by the Arabs and "disputed" by the Israelis. This bipolar disorder is the result of a little incident that happened in 1967 when six Arab countries amassed their armies along the three borders of Israel with the announced intention of driving the Jews into the sea.

When the smoke cleared six days later, the Israelis were in CONTROL of all the land from the Sinai Peninsula to the Jordan River. That's not what the Arabs expected, but that is how it turned out.

Hence, the territories are administered by the Israelis (who do a far better job than the Arabs in sanitation and public works, and who are rewarded for this by being called "occupiers."

All the Israelis really want is to be able to take their shoes off when they sit in their lounge chairs, to paraphrase Tom Friedman. But one tends to want to keep them on when rockets sail over into Sderot, for example.
*

Try reality.
1 In 1967 there were 1.1 Million arabs in the occupied Territories.

2.The war of 1967, was started by the Israelis. The Israeli leadership was honest enough to say so....

General Yitzhak Rabin, Chief of Staff IDF
"I do not believe that Nasser wanted war. The two divisions which he sent into Sinai on May 14 would not have been enough to unleash an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it." (Le Monde, February 28, 1968 )

Menachem Begin-Prime Minister
"In June l967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him." (New York Times, August 21, 1982)

Gen. Mattityahu Peled
"To pretend that the Egyptian forces massed on our frontiers were in a position to threaten the existence of Israel constitutes an insult not only to the intelligence of anyone capable of analyzing this sort of situation, but above all an insult to the Zahal(tne Israeli army)"

I like the Israeli's doing a better job of sewage and sanitation line, next time I have a problem with the local public works, I will hope and pray some one invades my country, steals my home, and builds a new one for some bunch of racists. Hey, at least then the guy who lives in my old home would have a flush toilet. Beats self determination any day, who wants that?

BTW, just to illustrate how "special" Israel is, even their war Criminals get to walk...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,...1568709,00.html
QUOTE
Scotland Yard was urged yesterday to launch a criminal investigation into officials at the Israeli embassy in London who helped a retired Israeli general wanted in Britain for war crimes to escape arrest. Doron Almog arrived on Sunday at Heathrow for a private visit to the UK. Unknown to him, a British court had issued a warrant for his arrest for war crimes on Saturday and detectives were waiting at the airport.
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Mr Almog told the Guardian yesterday that, as he prepared to leave the plane, he was advised to wait by the cabin crew. Israel's military attache in London then arrived on the plane to inform him that he faced arrest. Mr Almog stayed on the El Al plane until it flew back to Israel.
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Mr Machover also called for a police inquiry into how the information was leaked to the Israeli embassy and how the Israeli diplomat got through various layers of security at Heathrow to board the plane and warn Mr Almog.


Can you imagine the howling if such a thing was done for an Arab? It would be front page news. But, somehow and Israeli attache manages to not only find out about an investigation, he circumvents security at one of the worlds busiest airport to tip off some guy who is being charged with war crimes, by the country he is privileged to be visiting.

As usual the apologists are working overtime spinning this into some injustice against the nation that can do no wrong.

Just like they are for the spy case in this country.
heart
Tell that to the residents of Yad Mordachai!!

at any rate, King Farouk of Egypt cancelled any notion of a "Gaza Government" when Egypt OCCUPPIED Gaza!

WHEN EGYPT CLOSED THE STRAIT OF TURAN WHAT DID YOU EXPECT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN. Once again, you misrepresent and ignore every single fact you don't like.

Just in case you don't know geographay, nor understand what closing those straits meant, here is a map. The instructive part in in the upper left hand inset.

real_democrat
QUOTE(heart @ Sep 15 2005, 09:19 PM)
Tell that to the residents of Yad Mordachai!!

at any rate, King Farouk of Egypt cancelled any notion of a "Gaza Government" when Egypt OCCUPPIED Gaza!

WHEN EGYPT CLOSED THE STRAIT OF TURAN WHAT DID YOU EXPECT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN.  Once again, you misrepresent and ignore every single fact you don't like.

Just in case you don't know geographay, nor understand what closing those straits meant, here is a map.  The instructive part in in the upper left hand inset.


*

But those facts you mentioned are completely irrelevent. Here is more relevent quotes..

Mordechai Bentov, Israeli Minister of Housing has elaborated that: “The entire story of the danger of extermination was invented in every detail, and exaggerated a posteriori to justify the annexation of new Arab territory.”

According to the New York Times: “Moshe Dayan, the celebrated commander who, a Defense Minister in 1967, gave the order to conquer the Golan…[said] many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel, and the kibbutz residents who pressed the government to take the Golan Heights did so less for security than for their farmland.”

It was the aggressive deliberate provocation of Arab nations byIsrael at every turn that produced every result including the the closing of the straight of Turan. And as the Israeli leaders at the time clearly indicated they took advantage of it to take more land of others.

And I am sick of them taking advantage of us, and they are never satisfied.. Why don't you tote that rifle of yours over there and fight the good fight for the worlds most perfect nation Heart?
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